June 6, 2025 • 35 mins
Big news, friends. Jessie Stephens and Amelia Lester are bringing a whole new vibe to parenting podcasts with this brand new mini series: Parenting Out Loud.
If you're deep in the trenches, Parenting Out Loud will help make your world feel just that little bit bigger with the week's hot topics explored, examined and digested. Because if parents are thinking about it, we're talking about it.
On this week's episode, grandparents get a long overdue performance review, we unpack the article that stopped us in our tracks, take a deep dive into Mormon Wives (and mothers), and investigate the playroom that got Amelia all riled up.
Plus, recommendations: A fool-proof recipe, a genius toy to get kids off screens and a book that shines a light on sibling relationships.
Come join the conversation. New eps drop Saturdays. No shoulder spit-ups required.
Support independent women's media
Recommendations
Jessie wants you to bake these oat bars and recommends the toy, Tonies.
Amelia wants you to read Intermezzo by Sally Rooney.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges
the traditional owners of the land and waters that this
podcast is recorded.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
On Hello and welcome to Parenting Out Loud. I am
Jesse Stevens and I am joined by Amelia Lester. We
are embarking on a mini series all about what's happening
this week through the lens of being a parent. And
(00:40):
to be clear, we are not going to be talking
about wheat bix in our hair or vomit on our shirts.
This is not your mother's group. It's a series that
we hope will make your world feel just a little
bit bigger. In short, if parents are thinking about it,
we are talking about it. Welcome Amelia Lester. How old
are your kids now?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
My kids are five and seven. They're both in school,
which has given me an unexpected sense of order and
serenity because I know where they'll be most days and
I don't have to think about it anymore.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
And it's not all the day care fees.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
No, it's very cost efficient. I moved back to Australia
from the US, where I spent the last twenty years
on and off last year, and I guess I should
say that. In my day job while my children are
at school, I am a journalist.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
And I have a toddler as well as a niece
who I claim as my own. And you may know
my voice from Mummy Are Out Loud or I also
hosted The Baby Bubble recently with my twin sister Claire
and Hallo Bump, which is all about pregnancy. I'm on
Mummy Out Loud thirty three times a week, so I'm
sure you know me well. On today's show, the grandparents
(01:45):
are not okay. In fact, they're reaching their limit. Since
when did grandparenting become a full time job? Plus the
boy who came back, the searingly honest article that got
us thinking about what it means when your world as
a parent implodes and the reaction of the people around you.
But first, Mormon wives, We've got Ballerina Farm, We've got
(02:08):
this secret lives of Mormon wives, We've got tradwhite culture.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
People keep grabbing my arm and telling me I have
to watch this, And as someone who loves selling Sunset,
but that's kind of the extent of my reality TV immersion,
I need you to explain why it's suddenly the zeitgeist.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
I have looked at what it is about this moment
that has made Mormon culture so prominent, right because there
was an article in the Washington Post end of last
year which was all about how twenty twenty four was
the year of Mormon women specifically, and this is what
the article said that Mormonism, and to be clear, that's
the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ in the
(02:47):
Latter day Saints, and it emphasizes a Christian view of
God and Jesus while incorporating sort of unique doctrines and practices.
So as someone who grew up Catholic, recognize some things,
don't recognize a lot. But it pairs very well with
social media and capitalism.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
But isn't it like all about not drinking coffee or
alcohol and wearing odd undergarments?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yes, well, I think that that's what's interesting is the
way in which it is engaging with the present moment,
right because part of Mormonism is about the performance of purity.
It's about performance, which obviously lends itself to social media.
It is about perfectionism, which you'll see in like a
Ballerina farm representation where it's all the matching clothes of
(03:32):
the kids and the beautiful hair and the beautiful home,
and there's something quite alluring about that.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
So Ballerina Farmer's Mormon.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Yes. And it's the prairie dress as well, which is
there's something that feels quite nostalgic about it because in
the US, probably even more than here, but in Australia too,
parents are kind of broken. So the idea that you
live in this stunning farmhouse with all the kids you
could ever want, and you barely need to leave the house, yes,
(04:01):
really works.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
I'm in.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
And the other thing is that Mormon women traditionally are
not meant to work outside the home. Now social media
has given them a life which means that they can work.
They can actually make a heap of money and never
walk out their front door. So they're doing the cooking
and the sewing and all of that quite aspirational stuff
and we're all consuming it. And making money is part
(04:27):
of Mormonism in a way, it's not part of Catholicism, right.
It's like God blessed you if you walk around with
something very fancy.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
And because it's very intertwined with it's a very American religion.
It was found in the United States. I believe in
Upstate New York. I have seen the Book of Mormon. Yes,
so I'm bringing them back knowledge to this and it
makes sense that therefore it would be more comfortable with capitalism.
So is this show about them sort of performing their
(04:55):
purity on social media because that sounds a bit boring.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Well, I think that it's about the hypocrisy. And I
suppose this is what makes it an interesting rich text
on social is that we know what the doctrine says,
and we know what the Bible says, and then you've
got people putting botox in their face, or drinking lots
of soft drink, or doing.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Lots of soft drinks. My god, this is crazy talk Jesse.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Or doing certain drugs. It's like the loopholes that they
find while also looking stunning. And also I read this
line in The Atlantic recently that said America loves mothers
more than it loves women, and I thought, there's something
about these Mormon mothers that we find particularly aspirational. If
you're in that, then you get a lot more license
(05:41):
to sort of muck around with the other stuff. But
it does make it addictive.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
I also read that there's a whole subplot of something
called soft swinging. Yes, And I don't think they mean playgrounds.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
No, no. And I think that it's like there are rules,
but they're weird rules.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Right, And I think part of this also I agreed
completely on the tradwife element, and it so speaks to
the anxieties of our times and not knowing whether the
wrong what overlords are going to take over, that we're
all diving deep on people who are perfecting their bread recipes.
But the soft swinging, I think is also part of
an exploration of polyamory that is happening amongst elder millennials
(06:23):
right now. Oh so true.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
And that's the thing is that Mormon wife sush. Mormon
women are mothers, but they get to be sexy, and
we'd all like to still be a bit sexy. But
this vision of motherhood that we've been left with is
kind of like your asexual, your drab. And so there
is something that feels almost aspirational, being like, look at
(06:46):
their incredible sex lives. Yes, and they're pretty and they're
great mums. It's prairie a dressment make it sexy. It
makes total sense to me. Now are grandparents underperforming? It's
time for a performance review. A recent article in The
Atlantic unpacks a sentiment amongst millennials that their parents are
not chipping in enough to help with their families. But
(07:06):
then it argues that contrary to that perception, grandparents are
doing a lot. They're doing more than ever. In fact,
we're in the era of something called peak grandparenting. Let
me outline this argument because I'm very curious to see
whether you agree, Jesse. It argues that parents struggle has
become grandparents struggle because grandparents now aren't just the disciplinarians
or the playmates that they used to be, but they're
(07:27):
co parents. And a sociologist quoted in the article says
that the grandparents fall into three categories. You're ready for them.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Yes, there are those who look for every opportunity to
look after their grandkids. Those people are called Anne Stevens.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Yes, exactly right. That is my mother to a TEA.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Second category those who don't want to do any care
of grandkids. I don't actually know many grandparents who fit
this description.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
I do, and we'll get to them.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Okay, good, Yeah. And a third category, which I really
that's what I want to talk about today, is grandparents
who want to be involved but they also want to
set boundaries. Some strategies that these grandparents try they commit
only to doing fun things with the kids. That means
no dentist visits, no math tutoring, just the fun stuff.
They semi regularly ignore their adult child's cause and they
(08:12):
help out only on certain days. And they do this
because they're tie it. It's only very recently that we've
developed this idea that grandparents should be always available. And
oh yeah, looking back on my childhood in the nineties,
I realized that was true. It's a very recent phenomenon.
It's basically happened for reasons you might expect. A lot
more people are working outside the home now, parenting itself
(08:33):
has intensified and people are living longer. So Jesse, what
do you make of this rise of grandparenting as a
full time job? And what do you say to these
grandparents who say, I love to be around my grandchildren,
but I also need my me time.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
I worry about the ones who don't have the guts
to say that, because I think that you can easily
be exploited and then feel very exploited. But we talk
about the Sandwich generation, right, the generation that has elderly
parents who might require care and kids. But now there's
like a club sandwich generation, which is that those kids
have grandkids, so they're kind kind of smushed between these
(09:11):
three generations. And let's be honest who we're talking about here.
Are we talking about grandparents or are we talking about grandmothers?
Because the economy relies in order for mothers to go
back to work, they require their mothers or their in
laws to give up some paid work, to give up,
whether it's exercise, whether it's socializing, all of those things
(09:34):
which are like sacrifices after having done that for a
period of their lives, which is a big ask. So
I think that the economy and I remember, I think
it was last year JD. Vance was being asked about
the situation in the US and he said, maybe grandparents
could step up more. So you want them to fill
holes in the economy or the fact that childcare is
(09:56):
prohibitively expensive, or that every family requires two parents to
be working pretty close to full time. You're then relying
on the unpaid work of this generation. I think it's
about how much of it is a choice, right, Because
in some situations, if you've got a mum who says
we can't pay the bills unless I go back five days.
(10:19):
And you have someone in their seventies doing five days
a week like that is an enormous ask. And I
don't think culturally we've decided yet whether child rearing is
work or not. Like I think that our conception of
work is really like confused.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
To an extent. That's so true.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
What's your relationship like with your parents and help?
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Well, this article really opened my mind because I moved
from the US back to Australia last year in part
because I wanted to spend more time with my parents,
and I wanted my children to spend more time with
my parents. And that has been such a rich and
rewarding experience I think for all parties, and I think
(11:05):
for all parties, it has also been a challenging experience.
It's been both those in part because my parents have
had to make trade offs. I don't want to speak
for them, but I can see and observe that, yes,
they have gained the company and the friendship with their
grandchildren that is so special, which can't be nurtured in
(11:27):
once a year trips, but they've also had to give
some things up. So the first and biggest thing they've
had to give up is they're retired. They used to
enjoy traveling. They kind of feel like they can't travel
like they used to now because I need them because
both my partner and I work full time, and although
both my children are in school, there's just so many
(11:48):
cracks that you have to paper over or stand over.
And so, for instance, anytime one of my kids is sick,
I call them, and I hate doing that because when
it comes to planned social events, I never call them.
I have a little bit of a rule, which is
that if I'm doing something fun, I have to get
a babysitter because it's not fair to use as just
(12:11):
sort of unpaid labor sitting around my place while my
kids are asleep. I want them to be able to
do fun things with them and to develop their relationship,
and doing bed time not fun not to help in
a relationship. So I get babysitters for that. But when
they're sick and have to come home from school, I
do have to call them because I've got to make
(12:31):
money and do my job. So I'm aware that that
means that, for instance, my mom might want to go
to her exercise class, as you mentioned, or my dad
might want to do his projects and then they have
to drop them to pick up the kids from school. Yeah,
and that sense of freedom that is being sacrificed, I
think is real. And I really loved that this piece
(12:52):
articulated that in a non judgmental way, because I think
this is a conversation we're only just beginning to have and.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Just because you love someone doesn't mean it's not work.
And there was some really good points. I think it
was in this article. It might have been another one
that was more Australian focused, and it was saying that
one in three grand parents in Australia help out with childcare.
But there's been studies done about grandparents and life expectancy
and how it really helps with cognition, really helps with
(13:21):
not feeling lonely, and how those connections can give you know,
some people are totally new lease on life.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
And yet when I throw this back at my parents,
this is helping with your cognition.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Exactly, I'm giving you ten x three years. I've given
you purpose. But on the other hand, I was speaking
to a family friend recently who said that she moved
cities so that she couldn't be asked because she was
starting to feel so trapped by the expectations, and I
think she was in a bind because you off for
(13:54):
child one a certain level of care, so you go,
I'll look after them a day a week. But then
their second child comes, maybe their third child comes, But
then what if they got siblings, and then you've got seven,
and you're like, I'm doing fourteen days a week with children,
and I don't have the retirement that I wanted. I
don't have any of the freedom. And then I think
it also puts adult children who are adult parents in
(14:16):
a situation of going maybe they feel entitled to that privilege.
Like I know, I'm not sure what your experience is,
but when I speak to friends about I'm almost self
conscious about how much help I get because I know
that it is such a privilege and not everyone is
afforded it. Either they have lost their parents, and this
is a particularly difficult time to feel that loss, because
(14:37):
they know their parents would have loved to their parents
can't due to disability due to mobility issues, or their
parents don't want to, and that stinks.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Yeah, it must be hard. I'm curious for you because
you do have two grandmothers who, by all accounts pretty
enthusiastic about the task. Yeah, but that must put a
bit of pressure on you to just be a little
aware of how much you're asking them to do. You know,
they're never going to say no. You know they're always
going to express delight about being asked. But do you
(15:08):
have to therefore second guess how much much you're asking
them to do?
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Yes. And the big one has been my twin sister
had a baby five months after me, So we now
constantly check in and go how many days.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
I've got to coordinate.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
We've got to coordinate because Mom's not gonna tell us,
and so I got no, she's not doing five days
between us. She'll do one day with me and maybe
she'll do one or two days with you. But I
know her exercise class is on a fast and we
are not asking her. We're very careful about that because
we want to protect her, because if we ask, she
will say yes. And that relationship, like watching my daughter's
(15:46):
relationship with her two grandmothers, is one of the greatest
jows of my life. Like it is, Oh my god,
they love each other so so much. But you're also like,
you need a break.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yeah, they need rest. One thing I thought was really
interesting is that there was a study done in twenty
twenty one of British grandmothers and apparently all these British
grandmothers were like, why do I have to supervise these
children on everything? They were like, I've got to provise
their homework, I've got to provide them with educational activities,
and all of them were taken aback by how intensified
(16:17):
grandparenting has become.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
I've had to go. My sister and I have talked
about this. When they are in the care of grandparents.
I think it's different. If it's paid, I think it's different.
If it's someone who's babysit whatever.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Then you can just tell them exactly what you want
to do what.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
You want and there's a really clear exchange going on.
But when it is family, and you also know that
they raise their own kids like they do have a
good cv, you just go is your rules? Like I
called Mum the other day and it was ten am
and Luna had a bickie in each hand this movie
and I just went.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Wait, no, it was.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Between her eggs. It was the gross motor skills. That's
what grandma's teaching.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Are you truly able to surrender control like that.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
I am in that situation. There are moments where it's
hard because I go, when she's with me, she's not
getting bikies, But I go, it's my rules when I'm
looking after her and the grandparents, And maybe it's my
Nan lived with me growing up, and interestingly, I didn't
feel like she was a parent in that she didn't
that supervision, that do your homework, That was never that.
(17:20):
But she was just this presence, a companion I thought
Nan was. And I laughed with Mum sometimes I go,
Luna thinks you're just a friend who comes over. She
doesn't know it's care.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
I am so glad you raised this, because I think
this is the other thing that has changed over the generations.
I also had my grandmother living with us for much
of the time, and she and I were really good friends.
And she did not supervise my homework. She cut up
cubes of cheese for me to watch the Barcelona Olympics. Yes,
I am that old And then get smart always gets
(17:50):
in the afternoon mash.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Did you ever have mash on them? Burjoe's catchphrase was
the other one? And I loved old people.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Loved them and I'd eat my cubes of cheese and
then she make me cupcakes. She wasn't providing me with
any educational resources now, she wasn't even saying you should
really do your piano practice. That fell to my mother.
And yet I think now I do have this sort
of expectation that my parents are going to, for instance,
tell my son to do his piano practice. And why
did that happen?
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yeah, that's so true. I think that we became more
intensive and with that we're projecting it because we're more anxious.
But I notice it with my mum. Sometimes my daughter
will be doing something and Mum will walk me out
the front door and will be standing on the thing
and I'm like, mate, who's watching Luna? Well, like, I'm
so intense in that situation, but I go, you raised
two sets of twins. Yeah, we got out of it somehow,
(18:40):
and I think she'll be fine. There was an article
published in The Guardian last month that I inhaled. It
was so beautifully written and so rich with insights and
detail about one of the most difficult things a parent
could ever go through. And it's funny. I often actively
avoid this content, but this was going around my sister
sent it to me and told me I had to
(19:01):
read it, and once I started, I couldn't put it down.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
It was stunning.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
The story was written by Archie Bland and it's called
The Boy Who Came Back, The Near Death and Changed
life of my son Max, and it tells the story
of how when Archie's son Max was seven weeks old,
he stopped breathing in his sleep. It was described as
an interrupted sid's situation is what they think happened. They
had a night nanny at the time, her name is Gina,
(19:27):
who realized he'd gone quiet, ran into his parents and
they immediately called an ambulance. Against the odds, he was
revived and as a result, Max lives with a disability.
It's unclear he's not yet too how this will impact
him going forward. They know he has cerebral palsy, which
impacts speech and gross motor function amelia separately. Without us
(19:49):
even discussing it, you had also read this article. What
do you think it was that resonated with people so
much and made it so deeply kind of affecting.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
There are so many things in this piece that we
could talk about for hours. One aspect of it that
I want to talk about. Is this so there sure
impacts and effects of having a sick child, because it's
not the same as arching his family. Every situation is
of course different, but having had a child in hospital
(20:22):
for an extended period, there were parts which really resonated
with me. What I found interesting about it was how
isolating it was, because you'd think that when you have
a child in the hospital, everyone rallies around, and yes
they did. You know, there were meal trains, people were
constantly checking in with me. It's not that people didn't care,
but it's that no one knows what to say. And
(20:45):
the fact is that nothing anyone says is the right thing, and.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
In fact, a misstep or a clumsy statement does so
much harm that I think that people get scared. And
that's what I found in this, And maybe I looked
at why I read it, and I think I've had
friends in that situation with sick kids, go through awful,
awful trauma of all different kinds, and you do the
gymnastics of trying to find the right thing to say.
(21:11):
And I was looking through this going I found it
really interesting what was the wrong thing to say? And
also he said so early on in the piece. Basically,
I don't want to be the story that you look
at that then makes you really grateful for your own kids.
That's really irritating.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Don't pull out the aphorisms, don't say things to him like, well,
I'm going to hug my own children tighter tonight. I
hate that.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
I hate that. I suppose there's a truth in that
that whenever we consume things about parenting or kids, we're
always seeing our own It's empathy, but it also almost
dehumanizes his own son. And I found he had a
few things that people said to him, like comparing going, oh, well,
you know, my son was really slow to sit.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Up, or like, my son's just forever throwing his porridge
around the room. Yeah, he's a mess too.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
As though it's the same when it absolutely isn't. But
I had someone close to me with a child in
hospital for a time recently, and again I'm not saying
that this is comparable or it's the same sitch situation
as the one depicted in the article. But the power
of this piece is that some of the things Archie
describes so beautifully did feel really familiar, and I hadn't
seen words around them before. It's interesting what you say
(22:23):
that there's people rally, but your focus is so singular,
and I don't think there's anything like it. You are
not sleeping, you have no appetite. It is hell on earth,
and even being in that environment is hell on Earth.
Like to be in an environment with other sick kids
is awful. And so to have him describe it, he
(22:46):
describes the orbits of like you walk out of the
hospital and still people understand this is around a hospital,
this is like serious shit. But then you go into
the quote unquote real world and there's just fury because
it's like you have no idea, how can you go?
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Yeah. So basically this happened in twenty twenty, and for
that entire year, I was very aware of the fact
that I was pushing my friends away because anytime they
tried to reach out, I was filled with anger and
resentment that they didn't know what I'd gone through, couldn't
understand what I'd gone through. My life was so much
harder than theirs, and I was just furious at them.
(23:25):
And he pulls out a few things that people said
that really bothered him. So, for instance, one that really
got to me was that he said, don't tell me
that this is scary. Oh, how scary this must be
for you to have your kid in the hospital. And
that got me because that's something that I've said to
people i would sit in hospital, is that must be scary,
because that's what I think is the true thing to say.
(23:46):
But he says it's not scary. Scary is losing your
kid at the shopping mall. This is a whole other
existential level. And another thing that he doesn't want people
to say is to talk about how it makes them
grateful for their own lives and their own children, and
just let's talk about where we're at. So then he
mentioned some things that were helpful. One of them was
(24:09):
a friend of his pulled his son aside and put
him in front of the TV with all the other
kids that are social gathering. Didn't make a big fuss
about it, didn't check if that was okay for his
son to be there, just did this thing, this quiet
act of grace that enabled both the father to get
along with his socializing, but also for his son to
feel like a normal child amongst the other children. And
(24:30):
I thought that was such a beautiful, practical thing that
someone did for him.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
I love that and I think there's a sense when
someone's in hospital that the people around you really just
want it to be over. So saying that it's scary,
being positive in a way that's actually not realistic, just
makes a person feel really unseen. People just want the
good news. That's why they're checking in because they want
the good news, and it's like it's not here. And
(24:56):
when it's when there's ongoing struggles, I think, yeah, people
lean on cliches, probably because I don't know what to say,
but I think it's helpful to kind of go, here's
what you do say.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
I didn't want people texting me for precisely that reason,
saying how are things because it's exhausting to have to
update people with uncertain news. A lot of stuff that
happens in hospitals is uncertain, Like that's why I realized
through this process, well, this test came back, and they
don't really know what's going on. And a lot of
the time they didn't know what's going on, and so
it's hard to give people definitive updates. So I would
(25:28):
find myself sending these group emails and asking people just
to read but not right back, because then I have
the labor of having to respond to them. It took
me a long time to get over the anger that
I felt, a lot longer than it took for my
child to get better. And I just really appreciate how
he went there with this piece. He didn't hold back.
(25:50):
He could see that people were trying to help. But
it's also important that people understand how hard it is
to accept and receive that help at a time like this.
If you've ever wondered how a secession character might design
a playroom, the Wall Street Journal has you covered. A
recent Wall Street Journal article featured a playroom that's getting
me angry. It's a venture capitalist mother and a tech
(26:12):
entrepreneur father in the New York City neighborhood of the
West Village. They purchased a two bedroom apartment next door
to their four bedroom apartment just to turn it into
a retreat for their young daughters. Okay, I don't know
if they've heard of making a fort with blankets and
dining room chairs, but anyway, buying a two bedroom apartment
(26:33):
works too.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
When I was a kid, I made that fought and
I put the blankets out, and then I let a
candle and I'll tell you there was holes in the
bottom of those chairs.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
My mom still remembers that I live in a two
bedroom apartment. That's my two young children's retreat. Anyway, Setting
aside the extravagance of it all, what is making people incensed,
and I guess by people I mean me, is that
there are no colors in this retreat. At the request
of the Color of Verse clients. The designers embraced monastic restraint.
(27:01):
The Raw Street Journal rights it's very muted. The interior
designer is quoted as saying, so let me paint your picture, Jesse.
Because this is a podcast, hand to did rugs, a
custom mural chairs from Copenhagen, and fifty shades of beige,
or as the designers call it, oatmeal, flax, cream, stone, rope,
bone and ash. Why is everything to do with kids
(27:23):
suddenly looking like a Skims catalog.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
I love beige. I will launch a passionate defense beigey.
It gets such a bad rap. And I bought like
linen for my bed recently and it was oatmeal with flax.
It was those shades that I went that's perfect. And
here's the reason everything to do with children is over
(27:47):
stimulating in my house. Despite my love of the neutrals.
I've got a red Elmo, I've got a blue bluey.
They yell in the middle of the night sometimes for
no reason because they batches go off. There is plato,
there are crayons there, and then you know, if the
TV goes on, don't even talk to me about the
colors that come up. We've got the wiggles, like there
(28:07):
is so much color. It is an assault on the senses.
Raising kids is an assault on the senses. It is
very overstimulating, quite like a nursery tour that I get
given on on social media sometimes, and I love when
they walk in and it's also neat, and.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
They've always got these special custom designed cubes. Yes, yes,
And I tried doing that in my house and I
made signs with my apartment and I made signs for
them for the kids, like this is my son's toys,
this is my daughter's toys. Do you know how long
it took for that whole taxonomy to be completely tossed aside.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
That's what's so funny is that the naivety of a
nursery is always like they barely go in there for
the first first little bit, and then the way that
people line up all the nappies and I think, oh.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
You never you never do the lining of the name.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
It's just and the like washing of the onesies and
the putting them back in. But the neutral, I mean,
I will also say that it's a real benefit for
hand me downs, like because we have a lot of beige.
I have friends who've had boys girls.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Whatever's true.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Let's gender neutral, very ginger neutral, which is great. And
if you don't know sex with baby, beige is also
really good to throw it in. I mean, look, I'm
not too essentialist about gender. I think girls can wear
blue and boys can wear pink. But some people, yeah,
that's why we go very yellow during that period. I
think the beige. I've seen an attack on beige, and
I just think I think we can allow it and
(29:28):
embrace more of the beige.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
You know, you are convincing me here. And another thing
about beige or oatmeal or flax or the cereals is
that you can throw things on them and it's sort
of just all blends into the sort of beige camouflage
of it all. Vomit male, yes.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
A light pool. I think you just smudge it in.
It does look like it's tonal.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
It's actually tonal. As my husband is fond of saying
it's either blood, semen or urine. God, I hope it's urine.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
We should say your husband or the doctor.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Sorry. Yeah, relevant, he deals with bodily fluids for.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
A living Amelia. It is time for our recommendations of
the week. And look, the rule for this is that
it's recommendations that might apply to parents parenting adjacent.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
That is the rule.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
What is your recommendation?
Speaker 1 (30:17):
It is a book. It is called Intermetso it is
by Sally Rooney. She's a really unknown niche writer. You
may not have heard of her. No, she's in fact
probably the most famous writer of AH generation.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
I guess I have to say I have a confession
about this book.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
I started it and I put it down. No, I
get it. I get it. I'm here to sell you
on it. It's not a new book. It came out
last year and it got very mixed reviews. Yeah, I
was not going to read it. I didn't enjoy her
last book. I just sort of felt like I understood
the stick of awkward Irish people falling in and out
of love. Did not need to.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Read that The love awkward Irish people, but this was like, it's.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Just too much. You know, this is like her third
or fourth book, and I get it. But then I
just picked it up at the library and needed something
to read. And I think it's my favorite of her books,
and it's absolutely the best book I've read all year.
And I want to say what I think people miss
They missed the point to me. I think that this
is a book about two brothers. It's about the relationship
(31:16):
between brothers, and I love that because I have a
brother and I'm always reading books about relationships between sisters.
And I think that's because novels these days are read
and written by women, so naturally I think we're going
to gravitate towards stories about women. But this really made
me think about and reflect on my relationship with my brother,
(31:38):
and it helped me to understand it a little bit more.
I love that Sally Rooney made such a valiant attempt
to live inside the minds of two men. This never happens.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
She did do that very very well, and the inner
world of the men came across as very authentic well.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
To be honest, I have no idea if she did
it well or not, because I'm not a man, but
to me it was just really compelling. Whether or not
it was accurate or not, I will have to leave
that to the men. But it did give me a
sense that I understood my brother better and my relationship
with him a little better. So basically, about Peter and
Ivan Kubeck, they are brothers who live in Dublin, their
(32:17):
fathers just died. They're both negotiating romantic relationships with women.
It is in fact about awkward Irish people. I need
to make that clear up front. But I loved getting
an insight or feeling like I got an insight into
how men think about women and how men think about
their siblings. And that's why I'm recommending it.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Maybe I should pick it back up. I have two recommendations.
My first recommendation is a tony box.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Have you heard of?
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Yes, I have one, and I need to dig it up.
Remind me why it's good.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Okay, So the tony box is like a soft box thing,
and then you get Tony's what they're called, and we've
got like a gruffalo or a pepper pig, and you
put it on top and it either sing songs or
tells stories or whatever, and the idea is the way
that a lot of people talk to me about it
was you get them off screens really interactive and they
(33:12):
love it, and so it's a great way for them
to feel really entertained by pig without looking at a screen,
and as we know, that is parenting in twenty twenty five.
Just finding weaselways around screens.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Is Luna's favorite pepper No.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Her favorite is the dog because it does round and around.
There's some song that she loves doing because she does
the dances to it, but we have to do it
every night. There's one that does lullabies, so we put
that on before bed. And full disclosure, this was a gift,
so I didn't buy this myself, and then I looked
up how much it was, and that's why I was
a little bit self conscious about my recommendation because they
cost I think it's about one hundred and eighty nine
(33:47):
dollars for a box, and the Tony's at twenty nine
dollars each, so I understand that that's a lot. And
I always get funny when like toys are recommended that
are really expensive and it feels like they would make
parenting easier, Like I just don't love that. I also
think from what I've heard, they last for years and years.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
We've had us for years.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Yes, and it appeals to a five year old in
a different way than it appears to a two year old.
I'm going to check another one out there, which is
a recipe Amelia I your kids pickI eaters. I know
we're not meant to use that term, but are they pis.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Not really to be honest.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
But people who hesitate, I'm like, they're fine. It's the
ones that are like my child.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Oh, let me tell you they food and.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
It's like my child eats four foods. Let's just say that.
The list in my phone of foods my Childie's the
God send for us have been these things called oat
bars and this would work for kids. That sounds fibrous, yes, yes,
fibrous and has nutrients. And I'm just like, if she
has one of those, at least she had something. It's
like a really good music. But I would eat one.
(34:50):
And so it's oats. You put in bananas, the more
ripe they are, the better, and then you can literally
throw in like carrots or dates or prunes or one
time I throw on some beetroots and then you check
at the oven and they last. I make them every
week and you can freeze them and whatever, and Luna
lives off them and every time she eats them, I
feel like a good because I know it has things
in it that is good. There is a link in
(35:12):
the show notes. It's I do not cook. There are
about two things I can cook and this is one
of them. And it has saved my life over the
last years.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
And do you know what else is greed about it?
It matches your preferred color scheme.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
It does because it's smushed into the lounge. It doesn't
matter beije lounge brilliant.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
It's fine.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
That is all we have time for on Parenting Out
Loud today, but we will be back next Saturday morning.
See you then, Bye bye.
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges
the traditional owners of the land and waters that this
podcast is recorded.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
On Hello and welcome to Parenting Out Loud. I am
Jesse Stevens and I am joined by Amelia Lester. We
are embarking on a mini series all about what's happening
this week through the lens of being a parent. And
(00:40):
to be clear, we are not going to be talking
about wheat bix in our hair or vomit on our shirts.
This is not your mother's group. It's a series that
we hope will make your world feel just a little
bit bigger. In short, if parents are thinking about it,
we are talking about it. Welcome Amelia Lester. How old
are your kids now?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
My kids are five and seven. They're both in school,
which has given me an unexpected sense of order and
serenity because I know where they'll be most days and
I don't have to think about it anymore.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
And it's not all the day care fees.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
No, it's very cost efficient. I moved back to Australia
from the US, where I spent the last twenty years
on and off last year, and I guess I should
say that. In my day job while my children are
at school, I am a journalist.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
And I have a toddler as well as a niece
who I claim as my own. And you may know
my voice from Mummy Are Out Loud or I also
hosted The Baby Bubble recently with my twin sister Claire
and Hallo Bump, which is all about pregnancy. I'm on
Mummy Out Loud thirty three times a week, so I'm
sure you know me well. On today's show, the grandparents
(01:45):
are not okay. In fact, they're reaching their limit. Since
when did grandparenting become a full time job? Plus the
boy who came back, the searingly honest article that got
us thinking about what it means when your world as
a parent implodes and the reaction of the people around you.
But first, Mormon wives, We've got Ballerina Farm, We've got
(02:08):
this secret lives of Mormon wives, We've got tradwhite culture.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
People keep grabbing my arm and telling me I have
to watch this, And as someone who loves selling Sunset,
but that's kind of the extent of my reality TV immersion,
I need you to explain why it's suddenly the zeitgeist.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
I have looked at what it is about this moment
that has made Mormon culture so prominent, right because there
was an article in the Washington Post end of last
year which was all about how twenty twenty four was
the year of Mormon women specifically, and this is what
the article said that Mormonism, and to be clear, that's
the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ in the
(02:47):
Latter day Saints, and it emphasizes a Christian view of
God and Jesus while incorporating sort of unique doctrines and practices.
So as someone who grew up Catholic, recognize some things,
don't recognize a lot. But it pairs very well with
social media and capitalism.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
But isn't it like all about not drinking coffee or
alcohol and wearing odd undergarments?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yes, well, I think that that's what's interesting is the
way in which it is engaging with the present moment,
right because part of Mormonism is about the performance of purity.
It's about performance, which obviously lends itself to social media.
It is about perfectionism, which you'll see in like a
Ballerina farm representation where it's all the matching clothes of
(03:32):
the kids and the beautiful hair and the beautiful home,
and there's something quite alluring about that.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
So Ballerina Farmer's Mormon.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Yes. And it's the prairie dress as well, which is
there's something that feels quite nostalgic about it because in
the US, probably even more than here, but in Australia too,
parents are kind of broken. So the idea that you
live in this stunning farmhouse with all the kids you
could ever want, and you barely need to leave the house, yes,
(04:01):
really works.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
I'm in.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
And the other thing is that Mormon women traditionally are
not meant to work outside the home. Now social media
has given them a life which means that they can work.
They can actually make a heap of money and never
walk out their front door. So they're doing the cooking
and the sewing and all of that quite aspirational stuff
and we're all consuming it. And making money is part
(04:27):
of Mormonism in a way, it's not part of Catholicism, right.
It's like God blessed you if you walk around with
something very fancy.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
And because it's very intertwined with it's a very American religion.
It was found in the United States. I believe in
Upstate New York. I have seen the Book of Mormon. Yes,
so I'm bringing them back knowledge to this and it
makes sense that therefore it would be more comfortable with capitalism.
So is this show about them sort of performing their
(04:55):
purity on social media because that sounds a bit boring.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Well, I think that it's about the hypocrisy. And I
suppose this is what makes it an interesting rich text
on social is that we know what the doctrine says,
and we know what the Bible says, and then you've
got people putting botox in their face, or drinking lots
of soft drink, or doing.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Lots of soft drinks. My god, this is crazy talk Jesse.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Or doing certain drugs. It's like the loopholes that they
find while also looking stunning. And also I read this
line in The Atlantic recently that said America loves mothers
more than it loves women, and I thought, there's something
about these Mormon mothers that we find particularly aspirational. If
you're in that, then you get a lot more license
(05:41):
to sort of muck around with the other stuff. But
it does make it addictive.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
I also read that there's a whole subplot of something
called soft swinging. Yes, And I don't think they mean playgrounds.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
No, no. And I think that it's like there are rules,
but they're weird rules.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Right, And I think part of this also I agreed
completely on the tradwife element, and it so speaks to
the anxieties of our times and not knowing whether the
wrong what overlords are going to take over, that we're
all diving deep on people who are perfecting their bread recipes.
But the soft swinging, I think is also part of
an exploration of polyamory that is happening amongst elder millennials
(06:23):
right now. Oh so true.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
And that's the thing is that Mormon wife sush. Mormon
women are mothers, but they get to be sexy, and
we'd all like to still be a bit sexy. But
this vision of motherhood that we've been left with is
kind of like your asexual, your drab. And so there
is something that feels almost aspirational, being like, look at
(06:46):
their incredible sex lives. Yes, and they're pretty and they're
great mums. It's prairie a dressment make it sexy. It
makes total sense to me. Now are grandparents underperforming? It's
time for a performance review. A recent article in The
Atlantic unpacks a sentiment amongst millennials that their parents are
not chipping in enough to help with their families. But
(07:06):
then it argues that contrary to that perception, grandparents are
doing a lot. They're doing more than ever. In fact,
we're in the era of something called peak grandparenting. Let
me outline this argument because I'm very curious to see
whether you agree, Jesse. It argues that parents struggle has
become grandparents struggle because grandparents now aren't just the disciplinarians
or the playmates that they used to be, but they're
(07:27):
co parents. And a sociologist quoted in the article says
that the grandparents fall into three categories. You're ready for them.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Yes, there are those who look for every opportunity to
look after their grandkids. Those people are called Anne Stevens.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Yes, exactly right. That is my mother to a TEA.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Second category those who don't want to do any care
of grandkids. I don't actually know many grandparents who fit
this description.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
I do, and we'll get to them.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Okay, good, Yeah. And a third category, which I really
that's what I want to talk about today, is grandparents
who want to be involved but they also want to
set boundaries. Some strategies that these grandparents try they commit
only to doing fun things with the kids. That means
no dentist visits, no math tutoring, just the fun stuff.
They semi regularly ignore their adult child's cause and they
(08:12):
help out only on certain days. And they do this
because they're tie it. It's only very recently that we've
developed this idea that grandparents should be always available. And
oh yeah, looking back on my childhood in the nineties,
I realized that was true. It's a very recent phenomenon.
It's basically happened for reasons you might expect. A lot
more people are working outside the home now, parenting itself
(08:33):
has intensified and people are living longer. So Jesse, what
do you make of this rise of grandparenting as a
full time job? And what do you say to these
grandparents who say, I love to be around my grandchildren,
but I also need my me time.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
I worry about the ones who don't have the guts
to say that, because I think that you can easily
be exploited and then feel very exploited. But we talk
about the Sandwich generation, right, the generation that has elderly
parents who might require care and kids. But now there's
like a club sandwich generation, which is that those kids
have grandkids, so they're kind kind of smushed between these
(09:11):
three generations. And let's be honest who we're talking about here.
Are we talking about grandparents or are we talking about grandmothers?
Because the economy relies in order for mothers to go
back to work, they require their mothers or their in
laws to give up some paid work, to give up,
whether it's exercise, whether it's socializing, all of those things
(09:34):
which are like sacrifices after having done that for a
period of their lives, which is a big ask. So
I think that the economy and I remember, I think
it was last year JD. Vance was being asked about
the situation in the US and he said, maybe grandparents
could step up more. So you want them to fill
holes in the economy or the fact that childcare is
(09:56):
prohibitively expensive, or that every family requires two parents to
be working pretty close to full time. You're then relying
on the unpaid work of this generation. I think it's
about how much of it is a choice, right, Because
in some situations, if you've got a mum who says
we can't pay the bills unless I go back five days.
(10:19):
And you have someone in their seventies doing five days
a week like that is an enormous ask. And I
don't think culturally we've decided yet whether child rearing is
work or not. Like I think that our conception of
work is really like confused.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
To an extent. That's so true.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
What's your relationship like with your parents and help?
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Well, this article really opened my mind because I moved
from the US back to Australia last year in part
because I wanted to spend more time with my parents,
and I wanted my children to spend more time with
my parents. And that has been such a rich and
rewarding experience I think for all parties, and I think
(11:05):
for all parties, it has also been a challenging experience.
It's been both those in part because my parents have
had to make trade offs. I don't want to speak
for them, but I can see and observe that, yes,
they have gained the company and the friendship with their
grandchildren that is so special, which can't be nurtured in
(11:27):
once a year trips, but they've also had to give
some things up. So the first and biggest thing they've
had to give up is they're retired. They used to
enjoy traveling. They kind of feel like they can't travel
like they used to now because I need them because
both my partner and I work full time, and although
both my children are in school, there's just so many
(11:48):
cracks that you have to paper over or stand over.
And so, for instance, anytime one of my kids is sick,
I call them, and I hate doing that because when
it comes to planned social events, I never call them.
I have a little bit of a rule, which is
that if I'm doing something fun, I have to get
a babysitter because it's not fair to use as just
(12:11):
sort of unpaid labor sitting around my place while my
kids are asleep. I want them to be able to
do fun things with them and to develop their relationship,
and doing bed time not fun not to help in
a relationship. So I get babysitters for that. But when
they're sick and have to come home from school, I
do have to call them because I've got to make
(12:31):
money and do my job. So I'm aware that that
means that, for instance, my mom might want to go
to her exercise class, as you mentioned, or my dad
might want to do his projects and then they have
to drop them to pick up the kids from school. Yeah,
and that sense of freedom that is being sacrificed, I
think is real. And I really loved that this piece
(12:52):
articulated that in a non judgmental way, because I think
this is a conversation we're only just beginning to have and.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Just because you love someone doesn't mean it's not work.
And there was some really good points. I think it
was in this article. It might have been another one
that was more Australian focused, and it was saying that
one in three grand parents in Australia help out with childcare.
But there's been studies done about grandparents and life expectancy
and how it really helps with cognition, really helps with
(13:21):
not feeling lonely, and how those connections can give you know,
some people are totally new lease on life.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
And yet when I throw this back at my parents,
this is helping with your cognition.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Exactly, I'm giving you ten x three years. I've given
you purpose. But on the other hand, I was speaking
to a family friend recently who said that she moved
cities so that she couldn't be asked because she was
starting to feel so trapped by the expectations, and I
think she was in a bind because you off for
(13:54):
child one a certain level of care, so you go,
I'll look after them a day a week. But then
their second child comes, maybe their third child comes, But
then what if they got siblings, and then you've got seven,
and you're like, I'm doing fourteen days a week with children,
and I don't have the retirement that I wanted. I
don't have any of the freedom. And then I think
it also puts adult children who are adult parents in
(14:16):
a situation of going maybe they feel entitled to that privilege.
Like I know, I'm not sure what your experience is,
but when I speak to friends about I'm almost self
conscious about how much help I get because I know
that it is such a privilege and not everyone is
afforded it. Either they have lost their parents, and this
is a particularly difficult time to feel that loss, because
(14:37):
they know their parents would have loved to their parents
can't due to disability due to mobility issues, or their
parents don't want to, and that stinks.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Yeah, it must be hard. I'm curious for you because
you do have two grandmothers who, by all accounts pretty
enthusiastic about the task. Yeah, but that must put a
bit of pressure on you to just be a little
aware of how much you're asking them to do. You know,
they're never going to say no. You know they're always
going to express delight about being asked. But do you
(15:08):
have to therefore second guess how much much you're asking
them to do?
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Yes. And the big one has been my twin sister
had a baby five months after me, So we now
constantly check in and go how many days.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
I've got to coordinate.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
We've got to coordinate because Mom's not gonna tell us,
and so I got no, she's not doing five days
between us. She'll do one day with me and maybe
she'll do one or two days with you. But I
know her exercise class is on a fast and we
are not asking her. We're very careful about that because
we want to protect her, because if we ask, she
will say yes. And that relationship, like watching my daughter's
(15:46):
relationship with her two grandmothers, is one of the greatest
jows of my life. Like it is, Oh my god,
they love each other so so much. But you're also like,
you need a break.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yeah, they need rest. One thing I thought was really
interesting is that there was a study done in twenty
twenty one of British grandmothers and apparently all these British
grandmothers were like, why do I have to supervise these
children on everything? They were like, I've got to provise
their homework, I've got to provide them with educational activities,
and all of them were taken aback by how intensified
(16:17):
grandparenting has become.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
I've had to go. My sister and I have talked
about this. When they are in the care of grandparents.
I think it's different. If it's paid, I think it's different.
If it's someone who's babysit whatever.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Then you can just tell them exactly what you want
to do what.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
You want and there's a really clear exchange going on.
But when it is family, and you also know that
they raise their own kids like they do have a
good cv, you just go is your rules? Like I
called Mum the other day and it was ten am
and Luna had a bickie in each hand this movie
and I just went.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Wait, no, it was.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Between her eggs. It was the gross motor skills. That's
what grandma's teaching.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Are you truly able to surrender control like that.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
I am in that situation. There are moments where it's
hard because I go, when she's with me, she's not
getting bikies, But I go, it's my rules when I'm
looking after her and the grandparents, And maybe it's my
Nan lived with me growing up, and interestingly, I didn't
feel like she was a parent in that she didn't
that supervision, that do your homework, That was never that.
(17:20):
But she was just this presence, a companion I thought
Nan was. And I laughed with Mum sometimes I go,
Luna thinks you're just a friend who comes over. She
doesn't know it's care.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
I am so glad you raised this, because I think
this is the other thing that has changed over the generations.
I also had my grandmother living with us for much
of the time, and she and I were really good friends.
And she did not supervise my homework. She cut up
cubes of cheese for me to watch the Barcelona Olympics. Yes,
I am that old And then get smart always gets
(17:50):
in the afternoon mash.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Did you ever have mash on them? Burjoe's catchphrase was
the other one? And I loved old people.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Loved them and I'd eat my cubes of cheese and
then she make me cupcakes. She wasn't providing me with
any educational resources now, she wasn't even saying you should
really do your piano practice. That fell to my mother.
And yet I think now I do have this sort
of expectation that my parents are going to, for instance,
tell my son to do his piano practice. And why
did that happen?
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yeah, that's so true. I think that we became more
intensive and with that we're projecting it because we're more anxious.
But I notice it with my mum. Sometimes my daughter
will be doing something and Mum will walk me out
the front door and will be standing on the thing
and I'm like, mate, who's watching Luna? Well, like, I'm
so intense in that situation, but I go, you raised
two sets of twins. Yeah, we got out of it somehow,
(18:40):
and I think she'll be fine. There was an article
published in The Guardian last month that I inhaled. It
was so beautifully written and so rich with insights and
detail about one of the most difficult things a parent
could ever go through. And it's funny. I often actively
avoid this content, but this was going around my sister
sent it to me and told me I had to
(19:01):
read it, and once I started, I couldn't put it down.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
It was stunning.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
The story was written by Archie Bland and it's called
The Boy Who Came Back, The Near Death and Changed
life of my son Max, and it tells the story
of how when Archie's son Max was seven weeks old,
he stopped breathing in his sleep. It was described as
an interrupted sid's situation is what they think happened. They
had a night nanny at the time, her name is Gina,
(19:27):
who realized he'd gone quiet, ran into his parents and
they immediately called an ambulance. Against the odds, he was
revived and as a result, Max lives with a disability.
It's unclear he's not yet too how this will impact
him going forward. They know he has cerebral palsy, which
impacts speech and gross motor function amelia separately. Without us
(19:49):
even discussing it, you had also read this article. What
do you think it was that resonated with people so
much and made it so deeply kind of affecting.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
There are so many things in this piece that we
could talk about for hours. One aspect of it that
I want to talk about. Is this so there sure
impacts and effects of having a sick child, because it's
not the same as arching his family. Every situation is
of course different, but having had a child in hospital
(20:22):
for an extended period, there were parts which really resonated
with me. What I found interesting about it was how
isolating it was, because you'd think that when you have
a child in the hospital, everyone rallies around, and yes
they did. You know, there were meal trains, people were
constantly checking in with me. It's not that people didn't care,
but it's that no one knows what to say. And
(20:45):
the fact is that nothing anyone says is the right thing, and.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
In fact, a misstep or a clumsy statement does so
much harm that I think that people get scared. And
that's what I found in this, And maybe I looked
at why I read it, and I think I've had
friends in that situation with sick kids, go through awful,
awful trauma of all different kinds, and you do the
gymnastics of trying to find the right thing to say.
(21:11):
And I was looking through this going I found it
really interesting what was the wrong thing to say? And
also he said so early on in the piece. Basically,
I don't want to be the story that you look
at that then makes you really grateful for your own kids.
That's really irritating.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Don't pull out the aphorisms, don't say things to him like, well,
I'm going to hug my own children tighter tonight. I
hate that.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
I hate that. I suppose there's a truth in that
that whenever we consume things about parenting or kids, we're
always seeing our own It's empathy, but it also almost
dehumanizes his own son. And I found he had a
few things that people said to him, like comparing going, oh, well,
you know, my son was really slow to sit.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Up, or like, my son's just forever throwing his porridge
around the room. Yeah, he's a mess too.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
As though it's the same when it absolutely isn't. But
I had someone close to me with a child in
hospital for a time recently, and again I'm not saying
that this is comparable or it's the same sitch situation
as the one depicted in the article. But the power
of this piece is that some of the things Archie
describes so beautifully did feel really familiar, and I hadn't
seen words around them before. It's interesting what you say
(22:23):
that there's people rally, but your focus is so singular,
and I don't think there's anything like it. You are
not sleeping, you have no appetite. It is hell on earth,
and even being in that environment is hell on Earth.
Like to be in an environment with other sick kids
is awful. And so to have him describe it, he
(22:46):
describes the orbits of like you walk out of the
hospital and still people understand this is around a hospital,
this is like serious shit. But then you go into
the quote unquote real world and there's just fury because
it's like you have no idea, how can you go?
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Yeah. So basically this happened in twenty twenty, and for
that entire year, I was very aware of the fact
that I was pushing my friends away because anytime they
tried to reach out, I was filled with anger and
resentment that they didn't know what I'd gone through, couldn't
understand what I'd gone through. My life was so much
harder than theirs, and I was just furious at them.
(23:25):
And he pulls out a few things that people said
that really bothered him. So, for instance, one that really
got to me was that he said, don't tell me
that this is scary. Oh, how scary this must be
for you to have your kid in the hospital. And
that got me because that's something that I've said to
people i would sit in hospital, is that must be scary,
because that's what I think is the true thing to say.
(23:46):
But he says it's not scary. Scary is losing your
kid at the shopping mall. This is a whole other
existential level. And another thing that he doesn't want people
to say is to talk about how it makes them
grateful for their own lives and their own children, and
just let's talk about where we're at. So then he
mentioned some things that were helpful. One of them was
(24:09):
a friend of his pulled his son aside and put
him in front of the TV with all the other
kids that are social gathering. Didn't make a big fuss
about it, didn't check if that was okay for his
son to be there, just did this thing, this quiet
act of grace that enabled both the father to get
along with his socializing, but also for his son to
feel like a normal child amongst the other children. And
(24:30):
I thought that was such a beautiful, practical thing that
someone did for him.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
I love that and I think there's a sense when
someone's in hospital that the people around you really just
want it to be over. So saying that it's scary,
being positive in a way that's actually not realistic, just
makes a person feel really unseen. People just want the
good news. That's why they're checking in because they want
the good news, and it's like it's not here. And
(24:56):
when it's when there's ongoing struggles, I think, yeah, people
lean on cliches, probably because I don't know what to say,
but I think it's helpful to kind of go, here's
what you do say.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
I didn't want people texting me for precisely that reason,
saying how are things because it's exhausting to have to
update people with uncertain news. A lot of stuff that
happens in hospitals is uncertain, Like that's why I realized
through this process, well, this test came back, and they
don't really know what's going on. And a lot of
the time they didn't know what's going on, and so
it's hard to give people definitive updates. So I would
(25:28):
find myself sending these group emails and asking people just
to read but not right back, because then I have
the labor of having to respond to them. It took
me a long time to get over the anger that
I felt, a lot longer than it took for my
child to get better. And I just really appreciate how
he went there with this piece. He didn't hold back.
(25:50):
He could see that people were trying to help. But
it's also important that people understand how hard it is
to accept and receive that help at a time like this.
If you've ever wondered how a secession character might design
a playroom, the Wall Street Journal has you covered. A
recent Wall Street Journal article featured a playroom that's getting
me angry. It's a venture capitalist mother and a tech
(26:12):
entrepreneur father in the New York City neighborhood of the
West Village. They purchased a two bedroom apartment next door
to their four bedroom apartment just to turn it into
a retreat for their young daughters. Okay, I don't know
if they've heard of making a fort with blankets and
dining room chairs, but anyway, buying a two bedroom apartment
(26:33):
works too.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
When I was a kid, I made that fought and
I put the blankets out, and then I let a
candle and I'll tell you there was holes in the
bottom of those chairs.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
My mom still remembers that I live in a two
bedroom apartment. That's my two young children's retreat. Anyway, Setting
aside the extravagance of it all, what is making people incensed,
and I guess by people I mean me, is that
there are no colors in this retreat. At the request
of the Color of Verse clients. The designers embraced monastic restraint.
(27:01):
The Raw Street Journal rights it's very muted. The interior
designer is quoted as saying, so let me paint your picture, Jesse.
Because this is a podcast, hand to did rugs, a
custom mural chairs from Copenhagen, and fifty shades of beige,
or as the designers call it, oatmeal, flax, cream, stone, rope,
bone and ash. Why is everything to do with kids
(27:23):
suddenly looking like a Skims catalog.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
I love beige. I will launch a passionate defense beigey.
It gets such a bad rap. And I bought like
linen for my bed recently and it was oatmeal with flax.
It was those shades that I went that's perfect. And
here's the reason everything to do with children is over
(27:47):
stimulating in my house. Despite my love of the neutrals.
I've got a red Elmo, I've got a blue bluey.
They yell in the middle of the night sometimes for
no reason because they batches go off. There is plato,
there are crayons there, and then you know, if the
TV goes on, don't even talk to me about the
colors that come up. We've got the wiggles, like there
(28:07):
is so much color. It is an assault on the senses.
Raising kids is an assault on the senses. It is
very overstimulating, quite like a nursery tour that I get
given on on social media sometimes, and I love when
they walk in and it's also neat, and.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
They've always got these special custom designed cubes. Yes, yes,
And I tried doing that in my house and I
made signs with my apartment and I made signs for
them for the kids, like this is my son's toys,
this is my daughter's toys. Do you know how long
it took for that whole taxonomy to be completely tossed aside.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
That's what's so funny is that the naivety of a
nursery is always like they barely go in there for
the first first little bit, and then the way that
people line up all the nappies and I think, oh.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
You never you never do the lining of the name.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
It's just and the like washing of the onesies and
the putting them back in. But the neutral, I mean,
I will also say that it's a real benefit for
hand me downs, like because we have a lot of beige.
I have friends who've had boys girls.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Whatever's true.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Let's gender neutral, very ginger neutral, which is great. And
if you don't know sex with baby, beige is also
really good to throw it in. I mean, look, I'm
not too essentialist about gender. I think girls can wear
blue and boys can wear pink. But some people, yeah,
that's why we go very yellow during that period. I
think the beige. I've seen an attack on beige, and
I just think I think we can allow it and
(29:28):
embrace more of the beige.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
You know, you are convincing me here. And another thing
about beige or oatmeal or flax or the cereals is
that you can throw things on them and it's sort
of just all blends into the sort of beige camouflage
of it all. Vomit male, yes.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
A light pool. I think you just smudge it in.
It does look like it's tonal.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
It's actually tonal. As my husband is fond of saying
it's either blood, semen or urine. God, I hope it's urine.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
We should say your husband or the doctor.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Sorry. Yeah, relevant, he deals with bodily fluids for.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
A living Amelia. It is time for our recommendations of
the week. And look, the rule for this is that
it's recommendations that might apply to parents parenting adjacent.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
That is the rule.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
What is your recommendation?
Speaker 1 (30:17):
It is a book. It is called Intermetso it is
by Sally Rooney. She's a really unknown niche writer. You
may not have heard of her. No, she's in fact
probably the most famous writer of AH generation.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
I guess I have to say I have a confession
about this book.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
I started it and I put it down. No, I
get it. I get it. I'm here to sell you
on it. It's not a new book. It came out
last year and it got very mixed reviews. Yeah, I
was not going to read it. I didn't enjoy her
last book. I just sort of felt like I understood
the stick of awkward Irish people falling in and out
of love. Did not need to.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Read that The love awkward Irish people, but this was like, it's.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Just too much. You know, this is like her third
or fourth book, and I get it. But then I
just picked it up at the library and needed something
to read. And I think it's my favorite of her books,
and it's absolutely the best book I've read all year.
And I want to say what I think people miss
They missed the point to me. I think that this
is a book about two brothers. It's about the relationship
(31:16):
between brothers, and I love that because I have a
brother and I'm always reading books about relationships between sisters.
And I think that's because novels these days are read
and written by women, so naturally I think we're going
to gravitate towards stories about women. But this really made
me think about and reflect on my relationship with my brother,
(31:38):
and it helped me to understand it a little bit more.
I love that Sally Rooney made such a valiant attempt
to live inside the minds of two men. This never happens.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
She did do that very very well, and the inner
world of the men came across as very authentic well.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
To be honest, I have no idea if she did
it well or not, because I'm not a man, but
to me it was just really compelling. Whether or not
it was accurate or not, I will have to leave
that to the men. But it did give me a
sense that I understood my brother better and my relationship
with him a little better. So basically, about Peter and
Ivan Kubeck, they are brothers who live in Dublin, their
(32:17):
fathers just died. They're both negotiating romantic relationships with women.
It is in fact about awkward Irish people. I need
to make that clear up front. But I loved getting
an insight or feeling like I got an insight into
how men think about women and how men think about
their siblings. And that's why I'm recommending it.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Maybe I should pick it back up. I have two recommendations.
My first recommendation is a tony box.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Have you heard of?
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Yes, I have one, and I need to dig it up.
Remind me why it's good.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Okay, So the tony box is like a soft box thing,
and then you get Tony's what they're called, and we've
got like a gruffalo or a pepper pig, and you
put it on top and it either sing songs or
tells stories or whatever, and the idea is the way
that a lot of people talk to me about it
was you get them off screens really interactive and they
(33:12):
love it, and so it's a great way for them
to feel really entertained by pig without looking at a screen,
and as we know, that is parenting in twenty twenty five.
Just finding weaselways around screens.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Is Luna's favorite pepper No.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Her favorite is the dog because it does round and around.
There's some song that she loves doing because she does
the dances to it, but we have to do it
every night. There's one that does lullabies, so we put
that on before bed. And full disclosure, this was a gift,
so I didn't buy this myself, and then I looked
up how much it was, and that's why I was
a little bit self conscious about my recommendation because they
cost I think it's about one hundred and eighty nine
(33:47):
dollars for a box, and the Tony's at twenty nine
dollars each, so I understand that that's a lot. And
I always get funny when like toys are recommended that
are really expensive and it feels like they would make
parenting easier, Like I just don't love that. I also
think from what I've heard, they last for years and years.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
We've had us for years.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Yes, and it appeals to a five year old in
a different way than it appears to a two year old.
I'm going to check another one out there, which is
a recipe Amelia I your kids pickI eaters. I know
we're not meant to use that term, but are they pis.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Not really to be honest.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
But people who hesitate, I'm like, they're fine. It's the
ones that are like my child.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Oh, let me tell you they food and.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
It's like my child eats four foods. Let's just say that.
The list in my phone of foods my Childie's the
God send for us have been these things called oat
bars and this would work for kids. That sounds fibrous, yes, yes,
fibrous and has nutrients. And I'm just like, if she
has one of those, at least she had something. It's
like a really good music. But I would eat one.
(34:50):
And so it's oats. You put in bananas, the more
ripe they are, the better, and then you can literally
throw in like carrots or dates or prunes or one
time I throw on some beetroots and then you check
at the oven and they last. I make them every
week and you can freeze them and whatever, and Luna
lives off them and every time she eats them, I
feel like a good because I know it has things
in it that is good. There is a link in
(35:12):
the show notes. It's I do not cook. There are
about two things I can cook and this is one
of them. And it has saved my life over the
last years.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
And do you know what else is greed about it?
It matches your preferred color scheme.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
It does because it's smushed into the lounge. It doesn't
matter beije lounge brilliant.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
It's fine.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
That is all we have time for on Parenting Out
Loud today, but we will be back next Saturday morning.
See you then, Bye bye.
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