October 24, 2025 • 39 mins
Parenting can involve big ideas, public debates and the odd festive guilt trip - and this week, we’re tackling all three.
The man who created Adolescence has a new idea for how dads can connect with their sons - it’s beautiful, but one of us hates it.
Plus, Amelia dives into the kids party photo that’s divided Australia: can you really “bags” a park table?
And finally, it’s Elf O’Clock. Monz realises she’s the last mum on earth without a tiny spy living in her house, and wonders aloud if there are some traditions that should just be left alone.
Our recommendations:
💄Stacey recommends you treat yourself to a $150 Mecca makeup lesson (redeemable on product) where you learn game-changing tips.
❤️🩹 Monz wants you to check out A Year of Healing by Lucy Ormonde on Substack, a brilliant guide to showing up for a friend going through cancer.
⏰ Amelia is recommending Dr Dan Shapiro’s idea of time-ins: five minutes of phone-free, one-on-one time fully led by your child.
Support independent women's media
WHAT TO LISTEN TO:
- Don't miss an episode of Parenting Out Loud
- The Scariest Truth about Halloween & A Nepo Baby Debate
- The Royal Who Flipped The Script On Dads & The Unholy Truth About 'The Squeeze'
- So That's Why Magicians Are Back & The Eldest Daughter Theory
- Rihanna and A$AP Rocky's 'Love Junk' Rebrand & The TikTok Training Camp
- Stealth Mums, The Roblox Controversy & A Tiny Internet Feud
- Unpacking The KPop Demon Hunters Obsession & A Tracking Tool Controversy
- Connect your subscription to Apple Podcasts
WHAT TO READ:
- So your friend's been diagnosed with breast cancer. Here's how you can help.
- No Elf on the Shelf or Santa photos: The 6 Christmas traditions I'm cancelling this year.
- 'My daughter found out the Elf on the Shelf isn't real because of an article I wrote.'
- There's one question we're all asking since watching Adolescence. An expert just answered it.
- 'As a mum of teen boys, Adolescence was a sobering watch.'
- 'I had breast cancer and I'd love for my story to scare the s**t out of you.'
THE END BITS:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
waters that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Welcome to Parenting out Loud, the podcast for people who
don't always listen to parenting podcasts. We bring you the
week in culture, trends and news, and if parents are
thinking about it, we are talking about it. I'm Monice Bowley,
I'm Amelia Leaster.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
I am Stacey Hicks.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
And first of all, I have some breaking news that
I just saw as we walked into this record. Who's
the first time I've ever been ahead of a trend
in my life? Iebags are cool?
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Now, what what does that mean?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Well, lots of women are going and getting surgery to
remove their lower bleff, which is essentially their lower eyebags.
And now Jessica Defino's newsletter is saying, no, no, it's French.
It's cool to have eyebags. So we're cool, right.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
That's great to know.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
I have another fashion trend. I need to mention it, okay,
or rather not a fashion trend. Denim jackets. Now, I'm
not calling you out. I have a denim jacket that
I'm wearing today. I just didn't want to match with you.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
That's right. But I am in a denim jacket right now,
which I love. But what you're about to say, well,
I have read that.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
Apparently they're cringe and hopelessly millennial, and gen Z is
making fun of us for them.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Have you heard that?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
I have heard it, and I just wear it anyway.
I'm wearing my ankle socks, I'm wearing my big denim jacket.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
I don't care what they say.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Do you think that there are some denim jackets that
are better than others?
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yes? I do think so.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I think the ones that they think a cringe are
like the cropped denim jacket.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Oh okay, well you know that we wear on a
night out. That's what they're talking about. Mine's baggy and oversized.
So I'm cool.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
I'm maintaining along with my eyebags, got my baggy jacket.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Everything's fine.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
I just bought a denim jacket yesterday off Deepot. Obviously
that's why they're selling it. It was probably some gen
Z going and I'm like, oh, that's cool, all right.
Coming up on today's show.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
The guy who created adolescence has an idea for how
dads can connect with their sons. It's beautiful, but one
of us hates it.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
There is a kids party photo that was taken in
Sydney recently that has ignited a great Australian debate. Can
you bags a park table?
Speaker 5 (02:28):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
And it's Alpha clock And what I mean by that
is it's the time of year that I remember I'm
the last mum on earth without a little spy living
in our house. So I want to talk traditions. Are
there some traditions we should embrace and are there others
that we should just leave alone?
Speaker 4 (02:46):
But first, celebrities are making us feel bad about our
screen time habits again. Miranda Kerr was on a podcast
this week. You may remember her as the winner of
the Dolly Model contest back in the day Victoria's Secret Angel.
Now married to Evan Spiegel, who was the founder of Snapchat,
living in a palicial mansion in southern California. Here she
(03:07):
is talking about her screen time policy.
Speaker 5 (03:10):
Well, my husband is very anti screens for the young ones.
I've said to him, Look, something that feels good to
me is just like maybe on the weekend or a
special occasion, curling up with the kids, like the six
and seven year old and the teenager if he wants
to join in and like snuggling up and watching a movie,
and he's like.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
Okay, but not every weekend.
Speaker 5 (03:30):
Although my seven year old did just do a little
a learning program that he could do over the holidays,
and he learned like a little mindcraft like thing, and
so he was, you know, he obviously had screen time there.
But then when we talk about my teenager, our teenager
who is fourteen almost fifteen, so I have the parental
(03:53):
controls on his phone. And then on top of that,
he doesn't have social media, which we think is important,
but he does have Snapchat, which is the only way
he communicates with his friends.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
I could not love this more.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
You thought I was going to say, I hay, I
really did think that he were about to go on
a ranch.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Here's why I'm delighted by it.
Speaker 4 (04:14):
To recap, Miranda and Evans's younger kids don't have screen time,
not even movies because they're very, very bad. But her
son does play a little thing called minecraft.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Her older kid.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
Doesn't have any kind of social media because that would
be terrible, but he does have Snapchat.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
I love it. What's the problems?
Speaker 3 (04:38):
It's a bit all over the shop, which you know
we all are with screen time. It's extremely relatable, extremely relatable.
What I think is really interesting about this is she
paints this picture where her husband, the founder of Snapchat,
is very anti screens. And that's an interesting thing that
we've seen before with these big tech pros Bill Gates,
(05:00):
Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg do not let their kids on screens.
And it is this kind of do as I say,
but not as I do in reverse. Oh, it's fine
everyone else, but not for my kids. It's this I
know what's behind the curtain, and I don't want that
for my kids, and that is scary.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
Yeah, let's unpack what that actually means. The people who
know the most about these apps and devices, who jerry
rigged them to make us all addicted to them and
know all the tips and tricks on how to do that,
they are the very people who are making clear to
their kids that they should not go near them.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
I'm so surprised you like this, because aren't you just
irritated by the privileged flex.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
To say no?
Speaker 2 (05:40):
But I can afford my children the time and the
activities and to not have to be on screen.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Here's why I loved it.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
Every parent has these arbitrary and actually very silly rules
that make them feel better about their parenting style, like, oh,
I don't let my kids have screen time except minecraft.
Oh I don't let them use social media such a
little bit of snapschat and not a monster.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
And he's on it all the time. She says, he's
on it all day long.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Oh god, yeah, I love the little branded mention there
for her husband's company, Like, oh, of course, but Snapchat's
absolutely fine.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Snapchat's great. So it's quite ironic.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
I heard an interesting quote from Bill Gates daughter, Phoebe.
She's been in the news a bit lately. She's in
her twenties, and she has just launched a shopping app
where apparently it helps you get the best price for things,
querying why Bill Gates daughter needs to find the best
price for things. But anyway, she was talking about when
she was growing up, her father made a distinction between
how he had used technology as a kid and how
(06:38):
he wanted his kids to use it. He said, when
he was a kid, he experimented with technology and that
is what led him to become a billionaire and the
founder of Microsoft. But he didn't want his kids experimenting
the technology because he already knows what's wrong with it,
and so for them he wanted them to quote grow.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Into it thoughtfully.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
I just reckon, We've got to listen to these tech
bros when they tell us this. It's very revealing, Amelia.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
These tech bros are rich, and they have their time
and the resources to have their kids not on screens.
They probably can afford to pay for pottery workshops and
camp that are offline and all these things. But if
you're a normal family, screens are very much the way
that dinner gets made, the way that work gets done.
So I know it's interesting what they're doing and we
should take cues from it, but it's just not rooted
(07:22):
in reality.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
No, even that idea of cozying up to watch a
movie that Maranda talked about.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Look, before I had kids, I thought I'd be.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
Doing that cozying up to watch Disney movies from my childhood.
That's not how it works. When the TV is on,
I am folding laundry exactly. Earlier this year, Adolescence was
the biggest show. I feel like you could not look
or scroll anywhere without seeing this. It was the biggest
show on Netflix.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
In the world at the time before K Pop Demon
Hunters overtook it, But if you didn't watch it, it
was essentially about what happens to a family when their
thirteen year old son is arrested for murdering a school friend.
And it launched this global conversation around men and boys today.
And the creator of the show's now using his platform
to launch this program where he's asking men to write
(08:05):
letters to their sons and he'll turn it into a book.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
This is such a lovely project.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Like, I think it's so great to see any focus
on raising emotionally intelligent boys.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Do you reckon Mons?
Speaker 3 (08:16):
I love it to Stacy. I think we are trying
to raise a new kind of man. There's a lot
of focus on boyhood at the moment, and anything that
we can do to bring dads into the conversation and
ask dads to kind of reveal emotional intelligence and connect
with their boys is really great. And I know other
people have tried to do it before, but when you
(08:37):
have someone as big as Stephen Graham, who has this
huge platform, who did kind of start this global conversation
now turning that into action, that can only be a
good thing.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Yeah, No, I hate it. I absolutely hate it. Look,
I didn't watch this TV show. I never will. I,
in fact, anecdotally know a lot of parents of younger
children just could not stomach the idea of watching a
show like this that essentially presents boys as having this
monster inside them that has to be tanged. And that's
(09:09):
my issue with Steven Graham's hooleshtick. It's predicated on this
idea that boys today are in a unique crisis. He
says things along these lines. He says, there is arguably
an even bigger disconnect between fathers and sons than ever before. Sorry,
what where is the evidence for this? I think nineteen
(09:29):
fifties patriarchs who never spoke to their.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Family want a word.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
I don't see any evidence for it, And I think
it's perpetuating this idea of boys as weird aliens that
we have to treat with kid gloves. Sure, write a
letter to your son, but how about writing a letter
to your daughter too.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
I don't see.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
Why we keep having to treat them in this almost
fearful way.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
But don't you feel like there needs to be a
bit of a recalibration, Like I feel like at the
moment we are seeing that so many boys are feeling
angry and feeling disconnected and looking to these like Manisphere
figures that we do need to have these people who
do have the platform focusing more on them and kind
of bringing that balance back of what it means to
be a good man.
Speaker 4 (10:10):
There's been a bit of a backclash to Adolescence. I
hear you on that, but I think that the idea
of being a better man, the flip side is you've
got to be a better man because inherently you are
a monster, you know, and you've got to stifle that
and stifle the toxic masculinity. And so a lot of
people are saying that Adolescence it was a hugely popular show,
but it came out, But a lot of the debate
(10:32):
now has shifted to was adolescence kind of an example
of a moral panic, Like we've always worried about teenage boys.
This is not new, and that's what I take exception to.
In the eighties, apparently, I've read that people were worried
about dungeons and dragons corrupting youth and Chucky from child's play,
and then in the nineties it was violent rap lyrics.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
None of this is new.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
I don't think it is a moral panic because we
are seeing the data on boys being influenced by the
Andrew Taits of the world and this toxic manisphere and
their parenting experts. Is an amazing parenting expert, Australian expert
called Steve Bitoff, who writes a lot about rae boys,
and he says that the really critical time for duds
(11:14):
is the age between six and fourteen, and this is
when boys are working out who they are and if
there's no one there to guide them, if fathers don't
fill that gap, they will go looking for scripts of
masculinity elsewhere and they will find it online. And he
calls it the vacuum effect. When good men go quiet,
bad ones get loud. And I think boys are the
(11:37):
new misunderstood gender. Back to your point about how nineteen
fifties dads had a much bigger disconnect with their sons,
I'm not sure if that's completely the case, because I
think the modern dad. We've come a long way with
men being more emotionally intelligent, and we see it in
pop culture. We see it like Blue is Dad Bandit.
We see a lot more representations of sensitive emotional men.
(12:00):
But We've told men for years to open up, but
we've never given them a format that feels kind of
like safe to do that. And I think a letter
is a really good way to do it because it's
feelings in a space that's non confrontational. So no dad
is going to sit down and look at their son
in the face and have a deep and meaningful conversation.
(12:21):
And a lot of the parenting experts say that is
not the time to talk to boys. That the best
time to communicate with them is side by side, when
you're working on a project together, when you're driving in
the car, And I think a letter does the same thing.
Putting your feelings down on paper and slipping it under
the door. It's very non confrontational way to communicate with
your son. There was this study in twenty twenty three
(12:44):
that the University of Queensland did and it found that
young men learn how to be a man from their dads.
So dads pass on their masculinity beliefs to their sons.
And it might sound really obvious, but here's why it's important.
Because there are a lot of people out there wanting
to build policies and interventions and programs aimed at stopping
this toxic manisphere. It's more likely to work if we
(13:08):
target the dads. It's just more more likely to work
to promote like that healthy vision of masculinity if it's
coming from their dad, not from school, not from other people,
but dads. So that's why I think the letter project
is amazing. And I also want to say Maggie Dent
wrote about this in twenty twenty four. She called it
the power of the parent letter. She's got this book
(13:30):
helped me help my team. She's even got templates in
the back of the book which is like, copy my letter.
Here's how to do it if you're not sure where
to start. And she says that like, having a well
thought out letter can build this bridge, and it's deceptively powerful.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Okay, I'm kind of sold on that.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
Maggie Dent also taught me something about talking to boys,
where she said that they value predictability a certain script
every day, and so she gave us a suggestion that
a boy will find it especially powerful if at bedtime
you tell him something like I love you more than
all of the grains of sand on all the beaches,
because he can visualize that. It's really quite beautiful. I
(14:07):
started this conversation a cnec but I'm kind of being
one over to this idea mons that there is some
kind of crisis in boyhood and that fathers have to
play a really important role in that.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
And what I liked in this project Stephen Graham said
that he's purposely looking for all sorts of fathers, So
he wants new fathers, fathers who are much older and
their children are later in life, absent fathers who haven't
been there, and what they're feeling about that relationship. So
I think it's quite good in that it would feel
accessible to all types of dads. And yeah, maybe it's
just a matter of this needs to be targeted at
the father's not the son.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Stephen, you in this realm.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
It's the photo which has divided Australia. Picnic tables at
a local park, cheerful, pink plastic tablecloths, brightly colored bunting
which reads happy Birthday?
Speaker 1 (14:52):
What could be wrong with this? Sounds lovely? There's something
wrong with it.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
There are no people in the photo and that's what's
set off a firestorm because the person who reserved these
tables for a kid's birthday party was.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Not in the park.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
Now, this photo was posted to the Facebook Southwest Sydney
Kids Parks and Places earlier this month, and as Yahoo News,
which has gone really impressively deep on this photo reports
it quote left hundreds of viewers stunned, hundreds treads. Now
a few facts before I'm going to turn to the
jury for a verdict on whether this behavior is acceptable
(15:29):
or profoundly an Australian. Here are the facts you need
to know. The setup was there since at least nine
thirty am on a Saturday, when eyewitnesses first observed it.
I need to tell you that the council has confirmed
you cannot reserve tables at this park, so before you ask.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Not an option.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
And also the offending family arrived at the park for
the party at twelve thirty pm. Now the family was
apparently very understanding. They moved their party because other people
had already taken the tables. Everything was fine, But the
question remains, two bags or not two bags?
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Stacy, what's your verdict? I think it's okay.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
I just think don't hate the player, hate the game, Like,
if you want to get there early, then you've put
in the work. As someone who sent their father down
to bags the table for my daughter's birthday party at.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Six thirty in the morning.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Stephen Graham would approve exactly for a ten thirty party.
My dad sat there in the chair with the setup,
holding fort holding his bladder.
Speaker 4 (16:30):
I imagine too, that's different. Respectfully, he was sitting there.
The issue is there were no people there monds.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Yes, I agree. I think the prevailing theory is fine
to bags, but someone must physically be there on table watch. Yes,
someone must remain visible. This also happened last summer when
there was a big kerfuffle about people reserving beach spots
by erecting the cool kabana in morning and then leaving
and being able to come back and forth. The unofficial
(16:59):
Australian rule is one person must stay otherwise it's a
free for all. It's a public space, public space, public rules.
We need to protect that kind of party. I love
a humble park party. They are just the best mons.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
I couldn't agree more love a park party. There's something
so simultaneously nostalgic and very free about a park party.
And also you don't have people jamming lollies and cake
into your carpets, which is nice too. Yes, but I
had a very traumatic experience with the park party. I
was living in Washington, DC and I had a third
(17:32):
birthday party, which was Octonauts Seemed. I had ordered a
lot of oct Nauts Seemed party merch and swag. Got
to the park early to Saturday.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Captain Barnacles like in the O.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Captain Barnacles.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
I think Captain Barnacles is too type A for you.
I feel like you might be the pirate with the
patch classy mons.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
That is so hurtful, like a pirate. I would never
break the lawn.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Got a time guy, He's a good he's vibes. Sorry,
continue getting distracted.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
So I set up the party and I was there.
I was there the whole time, and the parties you
just start at eleven am. Ten forty five. Woman rocks
up at the park. Oh no, and says I reserve
this No, And my whole body went cold.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Because what could I do? She was absolutely right.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
I did not realize that you had to reserve, and
there was, in fact an online booking system in place.
I had to take down all the option Naught's merch
and essentially just create a makeshift picnic party, which was
not my vision. So I guess that's kind of an
urban horror story, and I guess it shows you should
always check out whether you can reserve.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Yeah, that's why well done, well done, because there isn't
there is a lot riding on the picnic park table.
You cannot leave it to chance, like you need to
try and control those controllables.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
And were you just like living in the shadow of
that table and that change.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
For you today for a party right now that is
not perfectly put living in the shadow. That will be
the name of my parenting memoir that I write about
that incident and how it caused me to re evaluate whether,
in fact I was a terrible parent.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
I'm so sorry for your loss of the picnic.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
I actually think it's kind of cool that you just pivoted,
and we're just like, what else could I do?
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Have a nice.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
What was her party? Did she keep side eyeing hers? Look?
Speaker 4 (19:24):
Her party looked fine. It didn't have an octionnot sceme.
It did not appear to have a discernible theme, which
is fine. You don't have to have a theme. Look
lovely that she was too.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Busy reserving the actual davel.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
The thing was, it was at a splash pad, and
I do love a splash pad for kids, for little
kids because they can run back and forth. Look, it
turned out great. The kids didn't care, but I live
with the shame.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
You know what, Amelia, you got that party planner, the
amazing pickle, whatever his name was, what was his name,
the gecko, the girt zucchini, the great Zuchino zucchini. You
have the great Zucchini law. You managed to book America's
most famous party plan. It doesn't matter what you do
from here, it's never going to live up to that.
So I think it should just be scrappy little park
(20:07):
parties from here on.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
In forew I like that a lot.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
And I also feel like park parties reach a kind
of age limit as well, and now I feel like
I'm actually hitting that. I think it's around seven. So
to everyone who's still got kids under seven who can
have park parties, lean in.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
They're the best.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Before we go into this next chat, if you have
small children who can hear this episode, if they are
in earshot, you may want to skip forward by just
a few minutes. I'm going to be referencing North Pole
business that only adults can know. Thank you. Now you
two come into my secret room. Shut the door. I
need you to help me work through a problem. It's
(20:46):
Elf a clock or what I mean by that. Yeah,
it is because it's we're almost tipping into November, and
then by the time November gets here, it may as
well be December. It's the time of year that I remember.
I feel like the last mom alive without an ELF
on the shelf. It taunts me every year. And you know,
last week we talked about how Halloween just has this
(21:09):
crazy momentum. I feel the same way about elves on
the shelves. They are everywhere. They're in schools, they're on
supermarket shelves, they're in cafes, like they're multiplying like knits
on a year three classroom head. Like it's just if
they are everywhere. I agonize over this every year. The
time comes and every fiber of my body is trying
(21:30):
to resist the ELF. But the pressure, the tradition, the beauty,
the magic, the joy is also there too, And I
feel completely split down the middle about it. And I
want to ask you to as my confidants to elf
or not to Elf.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
There is a lot of psychology behind this. I went
really deep on it, and researchers say, enacting a family
ritual is more important than the specific form that that
ritual takes, So it doesn't really matter what it is.
But if you're doing something that your children are expecting,
that's a regular thing in your family. Repeated rituals are
proven to foster closeness and belonging and like that identity
(22:08):
of your family.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
And that's what's about it. Like, yes, it will foster community.
It is something you have to do long term. But
I want to talk about the dark side of the
tradition too, because this goes to your question of whether
or not you should do off on the shelf. Monds
And you sent me a link to a newsletter called
I Kid you not listeners type a mom.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Now, this is not a.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
Newsletter I subscribe to, but it's every time the author
of that newsletter, Amanda Brown. She gave me a phrase
i'd honestly never given myself permission to think about before.
She talks about traditions I hate and traditions I regret
starting because we always think a tradition is a good
thing for all the reasons you said, Stacy, But there's
a lot of sort of pernicious elements of starting a
(22:50):
tradition within a family, and Amanda has three lessons she's
learned about traditions. One, once you start a tradition, it's
very hard.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
To stop it.
Speaker 4 (22:57):
Two, kids do not need traditions to be elaborate, which
is great because my favorite tradition is sleeping in.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
On a Saturday morning.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
And three these traditions will continue until your youngest child
grows out of them, so by and beware. What does
that make you think? In terms of ELF on the shelf,
Monds like that idea of committing to it for a
long time.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
I'm okay with that. I actually feel really delighted about this.
I'm not anti ELF. I think it's gorgeous and I
think that kids are little for such a short time
that doing anything that brings joy and magic into the
house is a good thing, right. And I also identify
as a Christmas mom, like I'm in Christmas Mom's Australia
Facebook group every five seconds, like I love we know.
(23:41):
The thing that has stopped me from doing it are
two things. The first is it feels deceptive, like once
they find out is it I've been lied to this
whole time. I also don't love the idea that kids
have to be good because someone's watching them. I want
my kids to be like intrinsically good, not extrinsically motivated.
(24:02):
And thirdly, I think the mental load was too much
for me in the past. I had a huge job,
we had a lot going on at home, and I
just felt like one more thing in December was probably
going to break me. But I couple that with the
idea that it does bring that sort of sense of
magic and it is something that they're going to wake
up in the morning and feel excited about. But it
is a lot of mental low. But that's what we
(24:23):
do as parents, right We manufactured these moments to make
our kids happy.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Well, you could just try my tactic mons. Last year,
I caved and decided that I needed to be this mum.
The first night, I put it on the toilet because
I would thought that would be funny in the morning.
But my daughter got up in the middle of the night,
saw a strange figure sitting on the toilet. Terrified, screamed,
the elf will never be back again in our household,
which I'm grateful for. What story did you give us
(24:50):
to why the elf went away? I just said you
didn't like her, so that's fine. We'll just not we
won't do that anymore.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
The health services are no longer repor I fired the.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
Elf, yes, Stacy, I mean the toilet is a weird choice.
For the first why the toilet? That is where the
door should be closed? It's your private business, and what
was going through your mind when you chose toilet?
Speaker 1 (25:13):
I panicked. I panicked.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
I wanted to commit to this, but didn't really have
the time to commit to this. So that's where I
put it. Failed miserably. So that's my sign that that
tradition is not for our family.
Speaker 4 (25:24):
I feel like this question of to elf or not
to elf is tied up with the idea that we
feel like we don't have enough traditions anymore, and I
think there are a couple of reasons for that. The
first is that so many seasonal traditions are connected to
the Northern Hemisphere calendar. So for instance, an Easter egg
count or an Easter egg roll. The whole idea of
(25:44):
that is that it's meant to be in springtime and
that's why they're all these eggs to find. Or Halloween,
it's meant to be when the days are getting darker
and shorter, and there's this sense of menace and the
ominousness of the cold.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
So that's the first reason.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
Second reason, I think a lot of traditions are obviously
quite religious in nature, and so we're looking for secular
traditions to start, and I think that that's probably why
we search for things like elf on the shelf. But
I do think that can admitting to them is huge.
I see this even with the tooth fairy. Now, I
felt obligated to employ the tooth fairy in case there
are little kids who have come back. The tooth fairy
(26:19):
does work in our home, but the tooth ory is
not reliable. Sometimes she tells me that she doesn't have
any cash. Sometimes she asks me change for a fifty,
and I don't have change for a fifty, And I
think that should be her job as tooth fairy to
keep gold coins on hand. And I'm frankly not pleased
with the job she's been doing. But am I going
to fire the tooth fairy?
Speaker 2 (26:39):
It raises all these questions, but I think these ones
feel like a big commitment, and I think the best
family traditions, like I don't think you need to be
worrying about the elf mons because I think the best
family traditions are the ones that are quite specific to
your family. Like in our family, we do Tree Day.
So we've done tree Day I'm thirty six now for
thirty six years with my parents, where we go and
(27:01):
get the tree from the Christmas tree. Fine, and my
brother now lives into state with his wife and they
fly back from Melbourne to come and cut down the
tree for our Fairly they're not even there. But that
is something that even in my wider friend group, people
talk about, oh yeah, you've got Tree Day this week,
like it's something that is unique to our family. And
I think those are the ones that should bring a
(27:22):
bit more joy to you as well. Like if it's
feeling like a chore, it probably shouldn't be a tradition.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Can I ask what day is Tree Day?
Speaker 2 (27:29):
For Tree Day is just the first week of December generally,
so we always do that. And I kind of went
in search of other more achievable traditions around this time.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
You put the.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
Elf in the bathroom, which is perfect and creepy.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
I know, look, I'm not great at traditions across the board.
I found this brilliant when I was looking at other
traditions that are like family identity. And I found this
brilliant one by this woman named Kylie, and she said
that they do cookie Hookie Day in their family. So
one day a year in December, they all take the
day off. The children's skip school, the parents take the
(28:03):
day off. They make cookies the entire day, which ends
up forming presents for the other people in the family.
They watch Christmas movies. Everyone loves it because they feel
like they're being a bit naughty and doing something that
they shouldn't do by taking the day off. And I
just thought that was brilliant, Like, isn't that what we're
meant to be looking forward traditions, not buying a bloody
elf that we put everywhere.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
Thank you for this pep talk. I think this is
exactly what I need. And what you said before that
was so beautiful and brilliant, and I want to put
a highlighter on it. Is if it feels like a chore,
maybe it's not the tradition for you. And I think
the reason I'm attracted to the elf, or I have
this tension around the elf, is because we don't have
any of these beautiful traditions and so it's like, oh,
here's one you can just buy off the shelf.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Sorry, Mom said, you say you're attracted to the earl.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
I am, Yeah, it's fair. There's a whole group of
us online.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
That's another Facebook.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
Oh my god, I'm trying to get deep here, right.
Maybe it is actually about choosing things that we look
forward to. I think I'm just going to get the
fucking elf after all of that. Do you know what
I also love it about your story is that you
tried something and you quickly realized it wasn't for you
and you were abandoned. And I think that's quite good because,
(29:16):
as you said earlier, once you hook into a tradition,
you have to it's a long term thing to keep
it going. I want to ask a question about your
tree Day. Did you do Tree Day as a kid
with your parents?
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Yeah, it's been something that my parents have always done.
But now there's that tension of where at that point?
Now where now our daughter is brought in on that?
But when does that end? And I think that's always
the hard thing and the sad thing with traditions sometimes
is they're started by someone who then no longer ends
up being there. So do you continue that on? Yes?
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Of course you honor them. It's beautiful. Yeah, such a legacy,
or people can grow out of them.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Like for our daughter, the night before her birthday, I
dress all of her stuffed animals in party hats because
I had seen a video of that. It's an easy
cheap thing to do. They all sit in a circle
with her present. So in the morning, all the stuffed
animals are there for her to get her present. But
last year when I did it, I felt this big
sense of because I thought this will end. At some point,
(30:13):
she won't want me to do this anymore. When she's
fourteen or fifteen years old, maybe sooner.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
You know what, she might want you to do it.
She might I will do it until my dying day.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
She wants me to Amelia any traditions other than sleeping
in at your house.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
You guys, this is such a type a mom conversation.
Speaker 4 (30:29):
I want to point that I love that I don't
have any love essions go forth.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Okay, so I'm in the market for a new tradition.
I think what I would like to know is what
other people are doing. Stacy, You've got all the ideas,
but what are our listeners doing that they can recommend?
I would love it if people could go to our
Instagram at Parenting Out Loud and tell us your Christmas traditions,
your family traditions, so that we can copy them and
steal them.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Okay, you know that feeling when a friend tells you
about something so good that it goes straight into your
notes app and then you probably never look at it again,
but you've taken on the recommendation. That's what we do.
Every week, we bring you the best things that we've
read or seen or bought or you used, Stacey.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
So this week I got myself a little treat and
I've had a big reaction to it, so I thought
I would share here because a lot of people said
they didn't know about this. I bought myself a makeup
lesson at Mecca.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Oh that's brilliant. So it's one hundred and fifty bucks.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
It's not cheap, but it's redeemable on products and you
take your bag of makeup you already own with you
and go, this is what I've got, this is what
I'm using. Can you show me how to use this?
And then they'll fill in the gaps with anything you
don't have. So, like, I needed a nice foundation but
I had an eyeshadow palette that I have owned for
probably seven years and never actually used because I didn't
(31:44):
know which ones to use. I loved it. I left
with a full face of makeup. Okay, I need some tips, Okay,
that's the best.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
So the best things I learned were about so I
just have been doing my makeup the same since I
was like sixteen years old, where you just like slap
the foundation on me your hands and rub it all
over your face.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
You're not mighty to do apparently not.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
The main thing now that we're of a certain age
is to not put the foundation up and ride up
under your eyes, because she said, if you're going to
put on concealer or a color corrector, you're just layering
heaps of stuff in that spot, and it's what can
kind of drag your face down. So she left all
that area and showed me how to put like a
nice color correcting product that I have.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Your Sports Look Spectacle, Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
My other one was instead of doing liquid eyeliner, which
I've never really been able to master, they always look crooked,
like one will look great and one will look crap.
She said, I should be using eyeshadow with an angled
little brush, you know the ones like tiny, tiny, tiny
little brush with an angle to create a line of
a flick rather than using a liquid eyeliner because it
can look a bit too harsh. So I bought a
(32:49):
ton of things, but I've also now got a ton
of things on a wish list for Christmas for myself.
Speaker 4 (32:54):
Well, punct did you buy that? You were most excited that?
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Oh, the cheapest thing, the angled brush because I did
my little flicky eyeliner this morning with brown eyeshadow and
I feel like it's okay and I won't smudge it
all over my face. So yeah, hot tip, do that
or put that on your birthday or Christmas wish list
for someone.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
To that's so good. While we're talking about makeup, I
started following that woman you told us about, Amelia Erica Taylor.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
She's a genius. Genius.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
Oh so if you don't have the time or the
money to get into Mecca, just do the cheapy version
and follow Erica Taylor on Instagram and just copy what
she does.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah, she's brilliant.
Speaker 3 (33:29):
That's great.
Speaker 4 (33:30):
If you own a danim jacket, you probably need to
be updating your makeup and we.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Said, all right, little change of pace here, because I
have a recommendation that goes a bit deeper. You know,
you when someone you love is going through something really
shit and you don't know what to say or do.
It's Breast cancer Awareness month and I read an article
on substack last night by Lucy Ormond. Her substacks called
(33:54):
a Year of Healing. And this article is called, so
your friend's been diagnosed with cancer, Here's how you can help.
And it was so brilliant. It was full of brilliant
ideas of how to show up for someone in the
thick of it, really like low cost things to do,
things that you should text, things not to say, and
how these small things can help more than you know.
(34:17):
A disclaimer is that Lucy is my friend, my very
dear friend, so you can imagine the guilts that I
felt when I read this and realized all the things
I could have done better. So don't be me. Read
it book market so that the next time you know
someone that's going through something really horrible, you will know
what to do. So we might link to it in
(34:37):
the show notes.
Speaker 4 (34:38):
What's one thing that you shouldn't text or say?
Speaker 3 (34:40):
I know someone that had cancer and diet. Yeah. Yeah,
my friend had that and they died. She said, why
would you say that?
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Yeah? Yeah, oh that sounds so helpful. Thanks for that. Mons.
Speaker 4 (34:52):
Mine is a parenting technique that is actually extremely easy
and dare I say it fun. So I'm not Taype,
but I am a nerd and I will take any
opportunity to learn more about how to be a better parent.
And I took a parenting class in person a couple
of years ago. It was with an American pediatrician called
doctor Dan Shapiro. He's extremely sought after. His practice is
(35:15):
basically impossible to get into. But he does run this
course and it's called Parent Child Journey, and you can
actually do it online. And I particularly recommend it for
parents whose children are neurodivergent, because that is his area
of specialty. But the tips and the techniques that he
talks about can be applied for all children. The best
(35:38):
thing that I took out of it was this concept
of time ins. Now you've probably heard of time outs,
but no one should be implementing time outs without also
implementing time ins. Doctor Shapiro says that the whole concept
of timeouts as a form of discipline was only ever
meant to be implemented if you were also doing time ins. Okay,
(35:58):
so let me explain what a time in is. The
idea of a time in is committing to spending a
small amount of time with your kid one on one,
not with your partner, not with your other kid. He
talks about actually, when you have a triad group, the
kid feels that the attention is being divided. So, for instance,
I have two kids, and obviously is easier for me
(36:18):
if I'm spending time with them to spend time with
both of them, and that is what happens the vast
majority of the time. But he just asks that every
now and then, if you can carve out some one
on one time with the kid, and even if it's
five minutes, you will see really powerful results in terms
of your connection with them. And he Doctor Shapiro still
(36:39):
does this with his adult sums. He's still like he'll
meet them for a coffee and think to himself, this
is a time in. So there are some rules of
the time in. You can't ask questions. That was really
surprising to me because I think we're taught as adults
that the way you show interest in someone is by
asking a question. But he explains that to a child
and in fact, potentially to adults, a question is stressful.
(37:02):
It requires a response. By asking the question, you are
requiring someone.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
To answer you.
Speaker 4 (37:07):
And that's not the point of the time. In you
are not requiring anything of your child. You cannot issue
instructions to them or commands to them, and you can't
use your phone. That's pretty obvious. Again, five minutes is fine.
It's really hard, though, even for five minutes to not
ask a question, to not issue a command, or to
not sort of sneak in a little learning like just say,
(37:28):
they draw a tree and you're like, you know, the
thing about trees is that they emit oxygen and taking
Carven dirrexcite, do not teach them anything. This is not
a teaching time. You were led by them, and I'm
not very good at it.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
But the other.
Speaker 4 (37:41):
Weekend I spent one on one time with my child
and I tried to take those principles into our conversation
and it was really great. I felt like we got
to spend time together. It was an afternoon we spent together,
and obviously I issued commands and ask questions over the
course of the afternoon. But I noticed in the days
afterwards that our relationship felt much easier than it would
(38:05):
have had we not had the time in.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
So good And I think it's one of those good
things because we spent so much time like correction and direction,
as you said, like you're either telling them what to
do or steering them towards something else, to just like
be there with them.
Speaker 3 (38:17):
So yeah, Maggie Dent. I know, we keep going banging
out about Maggie Dent. She talks about how kids will
have this cup and you've got to fill it up
every day, and sounds like the time in is like
very filling of the cup.
Speaker 4 (38:28):
And again, like he says, aim for like five to
seven minutes once a week, and you might hear that
and think that sounds well, that's a week.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
It's hard.
Speaker 4 (38:36):
I mean, that's why I love his advice. It's not unrealistic,
Like it's like five to seven minutes a week.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Aim for a time in.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
All right, girls, that's all we have time for parenting,
culture news trends this week. But friends, if you have
a friend of yours that would really get this conversation
and like this show, you should send it to them
or tell them about it. That's how we're going to
grow this little community of ours, just one person at
a time. And people are always looking for new podcasts
to add to their rotations. So be the friend that
(39:05):
gives someone a good one to try. A big thanks
to our team this week, content producer Tessakodovic, our senior
producer Leah Porges and executive producer Sashtanic and the group
EPE is Ruth Devine, and you are Stacy, and your
Amelia and I'm Monique. We are I have a great week.
We'll be back in the feed next Saturday morning and
see you later.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Bye bye
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
waters that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Welcome to Parenting out Loud, the podcast for people who
don't always listen to parenting podcasts. We bring you the
week in culture, trends and news, and if parents are
thinking about it, we are talking about it. I'm Monice Bowley,
I'm Amelia Leaster.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
I am Stacey Hicks.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
And first of all, I have some breaking news that
I just saw as we walked into this record. Who's
the first time I've ever been ahead of a trend
in my life? Iebags are cool?
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Now, what what does that mean?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Well, lots of women are going and getting surgery to
remove their lower bleff, which is essentially their lower eyebags.
And now Jessica Defino's newsletter is saying, no, no, it's French.
It's cool to have eyebags. So we're cool, right.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
That's great to know.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
I have another fashion trend. I need to mention it, okay,
or rather not a fashion trend. Denim jackets. Now, I'm
not calling you out. I have a denim jacket that
I'm wearing today. I just didn't want to match with you.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
That's right. But I am in a denim jacket right now,
which I love. But what you're about to say, well,
I have read that.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
Apparently they're cringe and hopelessly millennial, and gen Z is
making fun of us for them.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Have you heard that?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
I have heard it, and I just wear it anyway.
I'm wearing my ankle socks, I'm wearing my big denim jacket.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
I don't care what they say.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Do you think that there are some denim jackets that
are better than others?
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yes? I do think so.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I think the ones that they think a cringe are
like the cropped denim jacket.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Oh okay, well you know that we wear on a
night out. That's what they're talking about. Mine's baggy and oversized.
So I'm cool.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
I'm maintaining along with my eyebags, got my baggy jacket.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Everything's fine.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
I just bought a denim jacket yesterday off Deepot. Obviously
that's why they're selling it. It was probably some gen
Z going and I'm like, oh, that's cool, all right.
Coming up on today's show.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
The guy who created adolescence has an idea for how
dads can connect with their sons. It's beautiful, but one
of us hates it.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
There is a kids party photo that was taken in
Sydney recently that has ignited a great Australian debate. Can
you bags a park table?
Speaker 5 (02:28):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
And it's Alpha clock And what I mean by that
is it's the time of year that I remember I'm
the last mum on earth without a little spy living
in our house. So I want to talk traditions. Are
there some traditions we should embrace and are there others
that we should just leave alone?
Speaker 4 (02:46):
But first, celebrities are making us feel bad about our
screen time habits again. Miranda Kerr was on a podcast
this week. You may remember her as the winner of
the Dolly Model contest back in the day Victoria's Secret Angel.
Now married to Evan Spiegel, who was the founder of Snapchat,
living in a palicial mansion in southern California. Here she
(03:07):
is talking about her screen time policy.
Speaker 5 (03:10):
Well, my husband is very anti screens for the young ones.
I've said to him, Look, something that feels good to
me is just like maybe on the weekend or a
special occasion, curling up with the kids, like the six
and seven year old and the teenager if he wants
to join in and like snuggling up and watching a movie,
and he's like.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
Okay, but not every weekend.
Speaker 5 (03:30):
Although my seven year old did just do a little
a learning program that he could do over the holidays,
and he learned like a little mindcraft like thing, and
so he was, you know, he obviously had screen time there.
But then when we talk about my teenager, our teenager
who is fourteen almost fifteen, so I have the parental
(03:53):
controls on his phone. And then on top of that,
he doesn't have social media, which we think is important,
but he does have Snapchat, which is the only way
he communicates with his friends.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
I could not love this more.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
You thought I was going to say, I hay, I
really did think that he were about to go on
a ranch.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Here's why I'm delighted by it.
Speaker 4 (04:14):
To recap, Miranda and Evans's younger kids don't have screen time,
not even movies because they're very, very bad. But her
son does play a little thing called minecraft.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Her older kid.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
Doesn't have any kind of social media because that would
be terrible, but he does have Snapchat.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
I love it. What's the problems?
Speaker 3 (04:38):
It's a bit all over the shop, which you know
we all are with screen time. It's extremely relatable, extremely relatable.
What I think is really interesting about this is she
paints this picture where her husband, the founder of Snapchat,
is very anti screens. And that's an interesting thing that
we've seen before with these big tech pros Bill Gates,
(05:00):
Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg do not let their kids on screens.
And it is this kind of do as I say,
but not as I do in reverse. Oh, it's fine
everyone else, but not for my kids. It's this I
know what's behind the curtain, and I don't want that
for my kids, and that is scary.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
Yeah, let's unpack what that actually means. The people who
know the most about these apps and devices, who jerry
rigged them to make us all addicted to them and
know all the tips and tricks on how to do that,
they are the very people who are making clear to
their kids that they should not go near them.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
I'm so surprised you like this, because aren't you just
irritated by the privileged flex.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
To say no?
Speaker 2 (05:40):
But I can afford my children the time and the
activities and to not have to be on screen.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Here's why I loved it.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
Every parent has these arbitrary and actually very silly rules
that make them feel better about their parenting style, like, oh,
I don't let my kids have screen time except minecraft.
Oh I don't let them use social media such a
little bit of snapschat and not a monster.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
And he's on it all the time. She says, he's
on it all day long.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Oh god, yeah, I love the little branded mention there
for her husband's company, Like, oh, of course, but Snapchat's
absolutely fine.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Snapchat's great. So it's quite ironic.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
I heard an interesting quote from Bill Gates daughter, Phoebe.
She's been in the news a bit lately. She's in
her twenties, and she has just launched a shopping app
where apparently it helps you get the best price for things,
querying why Bill Gates daughter needs to find the best
price for things. But anyway, she was talking about when
she was growing up, her father made a distinction between
how he had used technology as a kid and how
(06:38):
he wanted his kids to use it. He said, when
he was a kid, he experimented with technology and that
is what led him to become a billionaire and the
founder of Microsoft. But he didn't want his kids experimenting
the technology because he already knows what's wrong with it,
and so for them he wanted them to quote grow.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Into it thoughtfully.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
I just reckon, We've got to listen to these tech
bros when they tell us this. It's very revealing, Amelia.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
These tech bros are rich, and they have their time
and the resources to have their kids not on screens.
They probably can afford to pay for pottery workshops and
camp that are offline and all these things. But if
you're a normal family, screens are very much the way
that dinner gets made, the way that work gets done.
So I know it's interesting what they're doing and we
should take cues from it, but it's just not rooted
(07:22):
in reality.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
No, even that idea of cozying up to watch a
movie that Maranda talked about.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Look, before I had kids, I thought I'd be.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
Doing that cozying up to watch Disney movies from my childhood.
That's not how it works. When the TV is on,
I am folding laundry exactly. Earlier this year, Adolescence was
the biggest show. I feel like you could not look
or scroll anywhere without seeing this. It was the biggest
show on Netflix.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
In the world at the time before K Pop Demon
Hunters overtook it, But if you didn't watch it, it
was essentially about what happens to a family when their
thirteen year old son is arrested for murdering a school friend.
And it launched this global conversation around men and boys today.
And the creator of the show's now using his platform
to launch this program where he's asking men to write
(08:05):
letters to their sons and he'll turn it into a book.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
This is such a lovely project.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Like, I think it's so great to see any focus
on raising emotionally intelligent boys.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Do you reckon Mons?
Speaker 3 (08:16):
I love it to Stacy. I think we are trying
to raise a new kind of man. There's a lot
of focus on boyhood at the moment, and anything that
we can do to bring dads into the conversation and
ask dads to kind of reveal emotional intelligence and connect
with their boys is really great. And I know other
people have tried to do it before, but when you
(08:37):
have someone as big as Stephen Graham, who has this
huge platform, who did kind of start this global conversation
now turning that into action, that can only be a
good thing.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Yeah, No, I hate it. I absolutely hate it. Look,
I didn't watch this TV show. I never will. I,
in fact, anecdotally know a lot of parents of younger
children just could not stomach the idea of watching a
show like this that essentially presents boys as having this
monster inside them that has to be tanged. And that's
(09:09):
my issue with Steven Graham's hooleshtick. It's predicated on this
idea that boys today are in a unique crisis. He
says things along these lines. He says, there is arguably
an even bigger disconnect between fathers and sons than ever before. Sorry,
what where is the evidence for this? I think nineteen
(09:29):
fifties patriarchs who never spoke to their.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Family want a word.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
I don't see any evidence for it, And I think
it's perpetuating this idea of boys as weird aliens that
we have to treat with kid gloves. Sure, write a
letter to your son, but how about writing a letter
to your daughter too.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
I don't see.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
Why we keep having to treat them in this almost
fearful way.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
But don't you feel like there needs to be a
bit of a recalibration, Like I feel like at the
moment we are seeing that so many boys are feeling
angry and feeling disconnected and looking to these like Manisphere
figures that we do need to have these people who
do have the platform focusing more on them and kind
of bringing that balance back of what it means to
be a good man.
Speaker 4 (10:10):
There's been a bit of a backclash to Adolescence. I
hear you on that, but I think that the idea
of being a better man, the flip side is you've
got to be a better man because inherently you are
a monster, you know, and you've got to stifle that
and stifle the toxic masculinity. And so a lot of
people are saying that Adolescence it was a hugely popular show,
but it came out, But a lot of the debate
(10:32):
now has shifted to was adolescence kind of an example
of a moral panic, Like we've always worried about teenage boys.
This is not new, and that's what I take exception to.
In the eighties, apparently, I've read that people were worried
about dungeons and dragons corrupting youth and Chucky from child's play,
and then in the nineties it was violent rap lyrics.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
None of this is new.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
I don't think it is a moral panic because we
are seeing the data on boys being influenced by the
Andrew Taits of the world and this toxic manisphere and
their parenting experts. Is an amazing parenting expert, Australian expert
called Steve Bitoff, who writes a lot about rae boys,
and he says that the really critical time for duds
(11:14):
is the age between six and fourteen, and this is
when boys are working out who they are and if
there's no one there to guide them, if fathers don't
fill that gap, they will go looking for scripts of
masculinity elsewhere and they will find it online. And he
calls it the vacuum effect. When good men go quiet,
bad ones get loud. And I think boys are the
(11:37):
new misunderstood gender. Back to your point about how nineteen
fifties dads had a much bigger disconnect with their sons,
I'm not sure if that's completely the case, because I
think the modern dad. We've come a long way with
men being more emotionally intelligent, and we see it in
pop culture. We see it like Blue is Dad Bandit.
We see a lot more representations of sensitive emotional men.
(12:00):
But We've told men for years to open up, but
we've never given them a format that feels kind of
like safe to do that. And I think a letter
is a really good way to do it because it's
feelings in a space that's non confrontational. So no dad
is going to sit down and look at their son
in the face and have a deep and meaningful conversation.
(12:21):
And a lot of the parenting experts say that is
not the time to talk to boys. That the best
time to communicate with them is side by side, when
you're working on a project together, when you're driving in
the car, And I think a letter does the same thing.
Putting your feelings down on paper and slipping it under
the door. It's very non confrontational way to communicate with
your son. There was this study in twenty twenty three
(12:44):
that the University of Queensland did and it found that
young men learn how to be a man from their dads.
So dads pass on their masculinity beliefs to their sons.
And it might sound really obvious, but here's why it's important.
Because there are a lot of people out there wanting
to build policies and interventions and programs aimed at stopping
this toxic manisphere. It's more likely to work if we
(13:08):
target the dads. It's just more more likely to work
to promote like that healthy vision of masculinity if it's
coming from their dad, not from school, not from other people,
but dads. So that's why I think the letter project
is amazing. And I also want to say Maggie Dent
wrote about this in twenty twenty four. She called it
the power of the parent letter. She's got this book
(13:30):
helped me help my team. She's even got templates in
the back of the book which is like, copy my letter.
Here's how to do it if you're not sure where
to start. And she says that like, having a well
thought out letter can build this bridge, and it's deceptively powerful.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Okay, I'm kind of sold on that.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
Maggie Dent also taught me something about talking to boys,
where she said that they value predictability a certain script
every day, and so she gave us a suggestion that
a boy will find it especially powerful if at bedtime
you tell him something like I love you more than
all of the grains of sand on all the beaches,
because he can visualize that. It's really quite beautiful. I
(14:07):
started this conversation a cnec but I'm kind of being
one over to this idea mons that there is some
kind of crisis in boyhood and that fathers have to
play a really important role in that.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
And what I liked in this project Stephen Graham said
that he's purposely looking for all sorts of fathers, So
he wants new fathers, fathers who are much older and
their children are later in life, absent fathers who haven't
been there, and what they're feeling about that relationship. So
I think it's quite good in that it would feel
accessible to all types of dads. And yeah, maybe it's
just a matter of this needs to be targeted at
the father's not the son.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Stephen, you in this realm.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
It's the photo which has divided Australia. Picnic tables at
a local park, cheerful, pink plastic tablecloths, brightly colored bunting
which reads happy Birthday?
Speaker 1 (14:52):
What could be wrong with this? Sounds lovely? There's something
wrong with it.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
There are no people in the photo and that's what's
set off a firestorm because the person who reserved these
tables for a kid's birthday party was.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Not in the park.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
Now, this photo was posted to the Facebook Southwest Sydney
Kids Parks and Places earlier this month, and as Yahoo News,
which has gone really impressively deep on this photo reports
it quote left hundreds of viewers stunned, hundreds treads. Now
a few facts before I'm going to turn to the
jury for a verdict on whether this behavior is acceptable
(15:29):
or profoundly an Australian. Here are the facts you need
to know. The setup was there since at least nine
thirty am on a Saturday, when eyewitnesses first observed it.
I need to tell you that the council has confirmed
you cannot reserve tables at this park, so before you ask.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Not an option.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
And also the offending family arrived at the park for
the party at twelve thirty pm. Now the family was
apparently very understanding. They moved their party because other people
had already taken the tables. Everything was fine, But the
question remains, two bags or not two bags?
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Stacy, what's your verdict? I think it's okay.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
I just think don't hate the player, hate the game, Like,
if you want to get there early, then you've put
in the work. As someone who sent their father down
to bags the table for my daughter's birthday party at.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Six thirty in the morning.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Stephen Graham would approve exactly for a ten thirty party.
My dad sat there in the chair with the setup,
holding fort holding his bladder.
Speaker 4 (16:30):
I imagine too, that's different. Respectfully, he was sitting there.
The issue is there were no people there monds.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Yes, I agree. I think the prevailing theory is fine
to bags, but someone must physically be there on table watch. Yes,
someone must remain visible. This also happened last summer when
there was a big kerfuffle about people reserving beach spots
by erecting the cool kabana in morning and then leaving
and being able to come back and forth. The unofficial
(16:59):
Australian rule is one person must stay otherwise it's a
free for all. It's a public space, public space, public rules.
We need to protect that kind of party. I love
a humble park party. They are just the best mons.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
I couldn't agree more love a park party. There's something
so simultaneously nostalgic and very free about a park party.
And also you don't have people jamming lollies and cake
into your carpets, which is nice too. Yes, but I
had a very traumatic experience with the park party. I
was living in Washington, DC and I had a third
(17:32):
birthday party, which was Octonauts Seemed. I had ordered a
lot of oct Nauts Seemed party merch and swag. Got
to the park early to Saturday.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Captain Barnacles like in the O.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Captain Barnacles.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
I think Captain Barnacles is too type A for you.
I feel like you might be the pirate with the
patch classy mons.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
That is so hurtful, like a pirate. I would never
break the lawn.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Got a time guy, He's a good he's vibes. Sorry,
continue getting distracted.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
So I set up the party and I was there.
I was there the whole time, and the parties you
just start at eleven am. Ten forty five. Woman rocks
up at the park. Oh no, and says I reserve
this No, And my whole body went cold.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Because what could I do? She was absolutely right.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
I did not realize that you had to reserve, and
there was, in fact an online booking system in place.
I had to take down all the option Naught's merch
and essentially just create a makeshift picnic party, which was
not my vision. So I guess that's kind of an
urban horror story, and I guess it shows you should
always check out whether you can reserve.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Yeah, that's why well done, well done, because there isn't
there is a lot riding on the picnic park table.
You cannot leave it to chance, like you need to
try and control those controllables.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
And were you just like living in the shadow of
that table and that change.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
For you today for a party right now that is
not perfectly put living in the shadow. That will be
the name of my parenting memoir that I write about
that incident and how it caused me to re evaluate whether,
in fact I was a terrible parent.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
I'm so sorry for your loss of the picnic.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
I actually think it's kind of cool that you just pivoted,
and we're just like, what else could I do?
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Have a nice.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
What was her party? Did she keep side eyeing hers? Look?
Speaker 4 (19:24):
Her party looked fine. It didn't have an octionnot sceme.
It did not appear to have a discernible theme, which
is fine. You don't have to have a theme. Look
lovely that she was too.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Busy reserving the actual davel.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
The thing was, it was at a splash pad, and
I do love a splash pad for kids, for little
kids because they can run back and forth. Look, it
turned out great. The kids didn't care, but I live
with the shame.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
You know what, Amelia, you got that party planner, the
amazing pickle, whatever his name was, what was his name,
the gecko, the girt zucchini, the great Zuchino zucchini. You
have the great Zucchini law. You managed to book America's
most famous party plan. It doesn't matter what you do
from here, it's never going to live up to that.
So I think it should just be scrappy little park
(20:07):
parties from here on.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
In forew I like that a lot.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
And I also feel like park parties reach a kind
of age limit as well, and now I feel like
I'm actually hitting that. I think it's around seven. So
to everyone who's still got kids under seven who can
have park parties, lean in.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
They're the best.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Before we go into this next chat, if you have
small children who can hear this episode, if they are
in earshot, you may want to skip forward by just
a few minutes. I'm going to be referencing North Pole
business that only adults can know. Thank you. Now you
two come into my secret room. Shut the door. I
need you to help me work through a problem. It's
(20:46):
Elf a clock or what I mean by that. Yeah,
it is because it's we're almost tipping into November, and
then by the time November gets here, it may as
well be December. It's the time of year that I remember.
I feel like the last mom alive without an ELF
on the shelf. It taunts me every year. And you know,
last week we talked about how Halloween just has this
(21:09):
crazy momentum. I feel the same way about elves on
the shelves. They are everywhere. They're in schools, they're on
supermarket shelves, they're in cafes, like they're multiplying like knits
on a year three classroom head. Like it's just if
they are everywhere. I agonize over this every year. The
time comes and every fiber of my body is trying
(21:30):
to resist the ELF. But the pressure, the tradition, the beauty,
the magic, the joy is also there too, And I
feel completely split down the middle about it. And I
want to ask you to as my confidants to elf
or not to Elf.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
There is a lot of psychology behind this. I went
really deep on it, and researchers say, enacting a family
ritual is more important than the specific form that that
ritual takes, So it doesn't really matter what it is.
But if you're doing something that your children are expecting,
that's a regular thing in your family. Repeated rituals are
proven to foster closeness and belonging and like that identity
(22:08):
of your family.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
And that's what's about it. Like, yes, it will foster community.
It is something you have to do long term. But
I want to talk about the dark side of the
tradition too, because this goes to your question of whether
or not you should do off on the shelf. Monds
And you sent me a link to a newsletter called
I Kid you not listeners type a mom.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Now, this is not a.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
Newsletter I subscribe to, but it's every time the author
of that newsletter, Amanda Brown. She gave me a phrase
i'd honestly never given myself permission to think about before.
She talks about traditions I hate and traditions I regret
starting because we always think a tradition is a good
thing for all the reasons you said, Stacy, But there's
a lot of sort of pernicious elements of starting a
(22:50):
tradition within a family, and Amanda has three lessons she's
learned about traditions. One, once you start a tradition, it's
very hard.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
To stop it.
Speaker 4 (22:57):
Two, kids do not need traditions to be elaborate, which
is great because my favorite tradition is sleeping in.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
On a Saturday morning.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
And three these traditions will continue until your youngest child
grows out of them, so by and beware. What does
that make you think? In terms of ELF on the shelf,
Monds like that idea of committing to it for a
long time.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
I'm okay with that. I actually feel really delighted about this.
I'm not anti ELF. I think it's gorgeous and I
think that kids are little for such a short time
that doing anything that brings joy and magic into the
house is a good thing, right. And I also identify
as a Christmas mom, like I'm in Christmas Mom's Australia
Facebook group every five seconds, like I love we know.
(23:41):
The thing that has stopped me from doing it are
two things. The first is it feels deceptive, like once
they find out is it I've been lied to this
whole time. I also don't love the idea that kids
have to be good because someone's watching them. I want
my kids to be like intrinsically good, not extrinsically motivated.
(24:02):
And thirdly, I think the mental load was too much
for me in the past. I had a huge job,
we had a lot going on at home, and I
just felt like one more thing in December was probably
going to break me. But I couple that with the
idea that it does bring that sort of sense of
magic and it is something that they're going to wake
up in the morning and feel excited about. But it
is a lot of mental low. But that's what we
(24:23):
do as parents, right We manufactured these moments to make
our kids happy.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Well, you could just try my tactic mons. Last year,
I caved and decided that I needed to be this mum.
The first night, I put it on the toilet because
I would thought that would be funny in the morning.
But my daughter got up in the middle of the night,
saw a strange figure sitting on the toilet. Terrified, screamed,
the elf will never be back again in our household,
which I'm grateful for. What story did you give us
(24:50):
to why the elf went away? I just said you
didn't like her, so that's fine. We'll just not we
won't do that anymore.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
The health services are no longer repor I fired the.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
Elf, yes, Stacy, I mean the toilet is a weird choice.
For the first why the toilet? That is where the
door should be closed? It's your private business, and what
was going through your mind when you chose toilet?
Speaker 1 (25:13):
I panicked. I panicked.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
I wanted to commit to this, but didn't really have
the time to commit to this. So that's where I
put it. Failed miserably. So that's my sign that that
tradition is not for our family.
Speaker 4 (25:24):
I feel like this question of to elf or not
to elf is tied up with the idea that we
feel like we don't have enough traditions anymore, and I
think there are a couple of reasons for that. The
first is that so many seasonal traditions are connected to
the Northern Hemisphere calendar. So for instance, an Easter egg
count or an Easter egg roll. The whole idea of
(25:44):
that is that it's meant to be in springtime and
that's why they're all these eggs to find. Or Halloween,
it's meant to be when the days are getting darker
and shorter, and there's this sense of menace and the
ominousness of the cold.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
So that's the first reason.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
Second reason, I think a lot of traditions are obviously
quite religious in nature, and so we're looking for secular
traditions to start, and I think that that's probably why
we search for things like elf on the shelf. But
I do think that can admitting to them is huge.
I see this even with the tooth fairy. Now, I
felt obligated to employ the tooth fairy in case there
are little kids who have come back. The tooth fairy
(26:19):
does work in our home, but the tooth ory is
not reliable. Sometimes she tells me that she doesn't have
any cash. Sometimes she asks me change for a fifty,
and I don't have change for a fifty, And I
think that should be her job as tooth fairy to
keep gold coins on hand. And I'm frankly not pleased
with the job she's been doing. But am I going
to fire the tooth fairy?
Speaker 2 (26:39):
It raises all these questions, but I think these ones
feel like a big commitment, and I think the best
family traditions, like I don't think you need to be
worrying about the elf mons because I think the best
family traditions are the ones that are quite specific to
your family. Like in our family, we do Tree Day.
So we've done tree Day I'm thirty six now for
thirty six years with my parents, where we go and
(27:01):
get the tree from the Christmas tree. Fine, and my
brother now lives into state with his wife and they
fly back from Melbourne to come and cut down the
tree for our Fairly they're not even there. But that
is something that even in my wider friend group, people
talk about, oh yeah, you've got Tree Day this week,
like it's something that is unique to our family. And
I think those are the ones that should bring a
(27:22):
bit more joy to you as well. Like if it's
feeling like a chore, it probably shouldn't be a tradition.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Can I ask what day is Tree Day?
Speaker 2 (27:29):
For Tree Day is just the first week of December generally,
so we always do that. And I kind of went
in search of other more achievable traditions around this time.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
You put the.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
Elf in the bathroom, which is perfect and creepy.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
I know, look, I'm not great at traditions across the board.
I found this brilliant when I was looking at other
traditions that are like family identity. And I found this
brilliant one by this woman named Kylie, and she said
that they do cookie Hookie Day in their family. So
one day a year in December, they all take the
day off. The children's skip school, the parents take the
(28:03):
day off. They make cookies the entire day, which ends
up forming presents for the other people in the family.
They watch Christmas movies. Everyone loves it because they feel
like they're being a bit naughty and doing something that
they shouldn't do by taking the day off. And I
just thought that was brilliant, Like, isn't that what we're
meant to be looking forward traditions, not buying a bloody
elf that we put everywhere.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
Thank you for this pep talk. I think this is
exactly what I need. And what you said before that
was so beautiful and brilliant, and I want to put
a highlighter on it. Is if it feels like a chore,
maybe it's not the tradition for you. And I think
the reason I'm attracted to the elf, or I have
this tension around the elf, is because we don't have
any of these beautiful traditions and so it's like, oh,
here's one you can just buy off the shelf.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Sorry, Mom said, you say you're attracted to the earl.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
I am, Yeah, it's fair. There's a whole group of
us online.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
That's another Facebook.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
Oh my god, I'm trying to get deep here, right.
Maybe it is actually about choosing things that we look
forward to. I think I'm just going to get the
fucking elf after all of that. Do you know what
I also love it about your story is that you
tried something and you quickly realized it wasn't for you
and you were abandoned. And I think that's quite good because,
(29:16):
as you said earlier, once you hook into a tradition,
you have to it's a long term thing to keep
it going. I want to ask a question about your
tree Day. Did you do Tree Day as a kid
with your parents?
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Yeah, it's been something that my parents have always done.
But now there's that tension of where at that point?
Now where now our daughter is brought in on that?
But when does that end? And I think that's always
the hard thing and the sad thing with traditions sometimes
is they're started by someone who then no longer ends
up being there. So do you continue that on? Yes?
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Of course you honor them. It's beautiful. Yeah, such a legacy,
or people can grow out of them.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Like for our daughter, the night before her birthday, I
dress all of her stuffed animals in party hats because
I had seen a video of that. It's an easy
cheap thing to do. They all sit in a circle
with her present. So in the morning, all the stuffed
animals are there for her to get her present. But
last year when I did it, I felt this big
sense of because I thought this will end. At some point,
(30:13):
she won't want me to do this anymore. When she's
fourteen or fifteen years old, maybe sooner.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
You know what, she might want you to do it.
She might I will do it until my dying day.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
She wants me to Amelia any traditions other than sleeping
in at your house.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
You guys, this is such a type a mom conversation.
Speaker 4 (30:29):
I want to point that I love that I don't
have any love essions go forth.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Okay, so I'm in the market for a new tradition.
I think what I would like to know is what
other people are doing. Stacy, You've got all the ideas,
but what are our listeners doing that they can recommend?
I would love it if people could go to our
Instagram at Parenting Out Loud and tell us your Christmas traditions,
your family traditions, so that we can copy them and
steal them.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Okay, you know that feeling when a friend tells you
about something so good that it goes straight into your
notes app and then you probably never look at it again,
but you've taken on the recommendation. That's what we do.
Every week, we bring you the best things that we've
read or seen or bought or you used, Stacey.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
So this week I got myself a little treat and
I've had a big reaction to it, so I thought
I would share here because a lot of people said
they didn't know about this. I bought myself a makeup
lesson at Mecca.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Oh that's brilliant. So it's one hundred and fifty bucks.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
It's not cheap, but it's redeemable on products and you
take your bag of makeup you already own with you
and go, this is what I've got, this is what
I'm using. Can you show me how to use this?
And then they'll fill in the gaps with anything you
don't have. So, like, I needed a nice foundation but
I had an eyeshadow palette that I have owned for
probably seven years and never actually used because I didn't
(31:44):
know which ones to use. I loved it. I left
with a full face of makeup. Okay, I need some tips, Okay,
that's the best.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
So the best things I learned were about so I
just have been doing my makeup the same since I
was like sixteen years old, where you just like slap
the foundation on me your hands and rub it all
over your face.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
You're not mighty to do apparently not.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
The main thing now that we're of a certain age
is to not put the foundation up and ride up
under your eyes, because she said, if you're going to
put on concealer or a color corrector, you're just layering
heaps of stuff in that spot, and it's what can
kind of drag your face down. So she left all
that area and showed me how to put like a
nice color correcting product that I have.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Your Sports Look Spectacle, Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
My other one was instead of doing liquid eyeliner, which
I've never really been able to master, they always look crooked,
like one will look great and one will look crap.
She said, I should be using eyeshadow with an angled
little brush, you know the ones like tiny, tiny, tiny
little brush with an angle to create a line of
a flick rather than using a liquid eyeliner because it
can look a bit too harsh. So I bought a
(32:49):
ton of things, but I've also now got a ton
of things on a wish list for Christmas for myself.
Speaker 4 (32:54):
Well, punct did you buy that? You were most excited that?
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Oh, the cheapest thing, the angled brush because I did
my little flicky eyeliner this morning with brown eyeshadow and
I feel like it's okay and I won't smudge it
all over my face. So yeah, hot tip, do that
or put that on your birthday or Christmas wish list
for someone.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
To that's so good. While we're talking about makeup, I
started following that woman you told us about, Amelia Erica Taylor.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
She's a genius. Genius.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
Oh so if you don't have the time or the
money to get into Mecca, just do the cheapy version
and follow Erica Taylor on Instagram and just copy what
she does.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah, she's brilliant.
Speaker 3 (33:29):
That's great.
Speaker 4 (33:30):
If you own a danim jacket, you probably need to
be updating your makeup and we.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Said, all right, little change of pace here, because I
have a recommendation that goes a bit deeper. You know,
you when someone you love is going through something really
shit and you don't know what to say or do.
It's Breast cancer Awareness month and I read an article
on substack last night by Lucy Ormond. Her substacks called
(33:54):
a Year of Healing. And this article is called, so
your friend's been diagnosed with cancer, Here's how you can help.
And it was so brilliant. It was full of brilliant
ideas of how to show up for someone in the
thick of it, really like low cost things to do,
things that you should text, things not to say, and
how these small things can help more than you know.
(34:17):
A disclaimer is that Lucy is my friend, my very
dear friend, so you can imagine the guilts that I
felt when I read this and realized all the things
I could have done better. So don't be me. Read
it book market so that the next time you know
someone that's going through something really horrible, you will know
what to do. So we might link to it in
(34:37):
the show notes.
Speaker 4 (34:38):
What's one thing that you shouldn't text or say?
Speaker 3 (34:40):
I know someone that had cancer and diet. Yeah. Yeah,
my friend had that and they died. She said, why
would you say that?
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Yeah? Yeah, oh that sounds so helpful. Thanks for that. Mons.
Speaker 4 (34:52):
Mine is a parenting technique that is actually extremely easy
and dare I say it fun. So I'm not Taype,
but I am a nerd and I will take any
opportunity to learn more about how to be a better parent.
And I took a parenting class in person a couple
of years ago. It was with an American pediatrician called
doctor Dan Shapiro. He's extremely sought after. His practice is
(35:15):
basically impossible to get into. But he does run this
course and it's called Parent Child Journey, and you can
actually do it online. And I particularly recommend it for
parents whose children are neurodivergent, because that is his area
of specialty. But the tips and the techniques that he
talks about can be applied for all children. The best
(35:38):
thing that I took out of it was this concept
of time ins. Now you've probably heard of time outs,
but no one should be implementing time outs without also
implementing time ins. Doctor Shapiro says that the whole concept
of timeouts as a form of discipline was only ever
meant to be implemented if you were also doing time ins. Okay,
(35:58):
so let me explain what a time in is. The
idea of a time in is committing to spending a
small amount of time with your kid one on one,
not with your partner, not with your other kid. He
talks about actually, when you have a triad group, the
kid feels that the attention is being divided. So, for instance,
I have two kids, and obviously is easier for me
(36:18):
if I'm spending time with them to spend time with
both of them, and that is what happens the vast
majority of the time. But he just asks that every
now and then, if you can carve out some one
on one time with the kid, and even if it's
five minutes, you will see really powerful results in terms
of your connection with them. And he Doctor Shapiro still
(36:39):
does this with his adult sums. He's still like he'll
meet them for a coffee and think to himself, this
is a time in. So there are some rules of
the time in. You can't ask questions. That was really
surprising to me because I think we're taught as adults
that the way you show interest in someone is by
asking a question. But he explains that to a child
and in fact, potentially to adults, a question is stressful.
(37:02):
It requires a response. By asking the question, you are
requiring someone.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
To answer you.
Speaker 4 (37:07):
And that's not the point of the time. In you
are not requiring anything of your child. You cannot issue
instructions to them or commands to them, and you can't
use your phone. That's pretty obvious. Again, five minutes is fine.
It's really hard, though, even for five minutes to not
ask a question, to not issue a command, or to
not sort of sneak in a little learning like just say,
(37:28):
they draw a tree and you're like, you know, the
thing about trees is that they emit oxygen and taking
Carven dirrexcite, do not teach them anything. This is not
a teaching time. You were led by them, and I'm
not very good at it.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
But the other.
Speaker 4 (37:41):
Weekend I spent one on one time with my child
and I tried to take those principles into our conversation
and it was really great. I felt like we got
to spend time together. It was an afternoon we spent together,
and obviously I issued commands and ask questions over the
course of the afternoon. But I noticed in the days
afterwards that our relationship felt much easier than it would
(38:05):
have had we not had the time in.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
So good And I think it's one of those good
things because we spent so much time like correction and direction,
as you said, like you're either telling them what to
do or steering them towards something else, to just like
be there with them.
Speaker 3 (38:17):
So yeah, Maggie Dent. I know, we keep going banging
out about Maggie Dent. She talks about how kids will
have this cup and you've got to fill it up
every day, and sounds like the time in is like
very filling of the cup.
Speaker 4 (38:28):
And again, like he says, aim for like five to
seven minutes once a week, and you might hear that
and think that sounds well, that's a week.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
It's hard.
Speaker 4 (38:36):
I mean, that's why I love his advice. It's not unrealistic,
Like it's like five to seven minutes a week.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Aim for a time in.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
All right, girls, that's all we have time for parenting,
culture news trends this week. But friends, if you have
a friend of yours that would really get this conversation
and like this show, you should send it to them
or tell them about it. That's how we're going to
grow this little community of ours, just one person at
a time. And people are always looking for new podcasts
to add to their rotations. So be the friend that
(39:05):
gives someone a good one to try. A big thanks
to our team this week, content producer Tessakodovic, our senior
producer Leah Porges and executive producer Sashtanic and the group
EPE is Ruth Devine, and you are Stacy, and your
Amelia and I'm Monique. We are I have a great week.
We'll be back in the feed next Saturday morning and
see you later.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Bye bye
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