September 23, 2025 • 20 mins
After US President Donald Trump and his Health Secretary RFJ Jnr announced that women shouldn't take Tylenol as it has been linked with increase in children being diagnosed with autism diagnosis, women all of a sudden had a new thing to be worried about.
But when you look at the actual science these claims are made on, you'll feel much better, because the studies show that this in't the case.
And in headlines today - The White House has confirmed that Prime Minister Anthony Albanese will meet with US President Donald Trump in Washington next month; In his speech at the UN General Assembly, US President Donald Trump has condemned moves by Western powers to recognise a Palestinian state; A meal and a drink at Sydney airport finally led to the arrest of the man known as the 'Night Stalker' or the 'Moore Park Rapist'; James Van Der Beek made a surprise virtual appearance at the Dawson's Creek reunion after having to drop out due to illness
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Host: Claire Murphy
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. Mumma Mia acknowledges
the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
is recorded on.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
I'm Claire Murphy. This is Mumma MIA's twice daily news podcast,
The Quickie. US President Donald Trump told the world through
his speech at Charlie Kirk's memorial on Monday that they'd
found an answer to something that impacts an estimated more
than sixty one million people and their loved ones worldwide.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
I think we found an answer to autism. How about
that autism? Tomorrow we're going to be talking the Oval
Office in the White House about autism, how it happens,
so we won't let it happen anymore.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Yesterday announced alongside his controversial Health Secretary RFK Junior, that
the cause of autism is paracetamol. So what does this
mean for pregnant women? And just how accurate are the
findings they're basing this announcement on before we delve into this.
He's the latest from the Quickie Newsroom. Wednesday, September twenty four,
The White House has confirmed that Prime Minister Anthony Albernizi
(01:16):
will meet with US President Donald Trump next month. There
was an expectation that the leaders would meet on the
sidelines of a summit they were both attending, but back
in June at the G seven meeting in Canada, Trump
cut his time short in order to address escalating hostilities
between Iran and Israel. The two are currently attending the
UN General Assembly in New York, but the PM's offers
(01:36):
told journalists that they didn't expect a meeting there, and
with Trump's well win twenty four hour attendants, there didn't
seem to be any room for it. But the White
House has confirmed that a meeting will happen in October,
which Albernizi will attend in person in Washington. In his
speech to the UN General Assembly, US President Donald Trump
has condemned moves by Western powers to recognize a Palestinian state.
(01:58):
Trump says such steps would reward horrible atrocities by the
Palestinian militant group hum Us, calling instead for world powers
to focus on securing the release of hostages held in
Gaza nearly two two years after Hamas seized them in
the deadly attack that triggered the Gaza War. France, Britain, Canada,
Australia and Portugal have all recognized a Palestinian state in
(02:19):
the past two days. Their moves were born out of
frustration with Israel over its offensive in Gaza and intended
to promote a two state solution, but have angered Israel
and its close ally the United States. Calling for the
release of all living hostages and the bodies of those
who've died in captivity, Trump said, we have to stop
the war in Gaza immediately. We have to stop it
(02:39):
to get it done. The two state solution, the existence
of both in Israeli and a Palestinian state, was the
basis of the US backed peace process at the nineteen
ninety three oslo A Cords, but the process has all
but died, Israel's government declaring there will be no Palestinian
state as it fights Hamas in Gaza following the October
seven attack. Israel, in turn, has drawn global condemnation over
(03:02):
its military conduct in Gaza, where more than sixty five
thousand Palestinians have been killed. A meal and a drink
at Sydney Airport finally led to the arrest of the
man known as the night Stalker or the moor Park Rapist.
At least ten women reported being assaulted in Sydney's Moor
Park in Inner West areas between nineteen ninety one and
nineteen ninety three, prompting an investigation into the night Stalker,
(03:24):
but the trail ran cold and New South Wales Police
disbanded its task force in July nineteen ninety three after
eliminating all suspects. Nearly three decades later, a strike force
was established that linked four of the sexual assaults to
a single male DNA profile. A national database search returned
a familial match, leading police to Funeral director Glengarry Cameron.
(03:46):
After the Alice Springs resident finished his meal at a
Sydney International Airport restaurant in January twenty twenty four, police
officers grabbed his fork and glass for forensic analysis. The
DNA was deemed to be a match and Cameron was
arrested when he returned to Australia. The sixty one year
old on Tuesday faced the Downing Centre Local Court, where
he admitted to raping and indecently assaulting the women while
(04:07):
wielding a variety of knives which he held against their
skin and threatened to use. Cameron pleaded guilty to thirteen charges,
with another fourteen to be taken into consideration when he's sentenced.
James Vanderbeek made a surprise appearance at the Dawson's Creek
reunion after having to drop out due to illness. The
forty eight year old actor, who's battling stage three colorectal cancer,
(04:29):
had made his apologies for missing the event, where the
cast reunited for a live reading of the pilot episode
to raise money for cancer research, due to suffering from
two stomach viruses, but he shocked fans at the Richard
Rogers Theater in New York when he made a virtual
appearance in a pre recorded video. He said, I've been
looking forward to this night for months and months, ever
since my angel, Michelle Williams said she was putting it together.
(04:51):
He said, I can't believe I'm not there. I can't
believe I don't get to see my castmates, my beautiful
cast in person. He thanked the show's fans and then
introduced his understudy for the event, joking it was definitely
an upgrade on him. As Hamilton star Lynn Manuel Miranda
appeared on stage. Former Dawson's cast mates Katie Holmes, Joshua Jackson,
and Busy Phillips joined Michelle Williams for the event. That's
(05:13):
what's happening in the world today. Next, Trump linked paracetamol
use in expectant mothers to autism. And now we have
another thing to worry about. But what studies were used
to link these two together and how reliable is that information.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
Effective?
Speaker 5 (05:30):
Immediately, the FDA will be notifying physicians at the use
of asset menifen acetamenofen, which is basically commonly known as
thailand oil during pregnancy, can be associated with a very
increased risk of autism. So taking tail and oil is.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
Not good.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
That was a message from US President Donald Trump yesterday
as he announced a link between increasing rates of diagnosed
autism in the US to the use of the drug
thailandol by pregnant women. It's commonly used to relieve pain
and fever. The drug which you'll hear being called a
set of minifre and its generic name we call here
in Australia paracetamol, the most commonly taken painkiller in the world.
(06:17):
Trump suggested women who are dealing with a fever simply
tough it out, and if they can't, maybe you will
have to get taylanol, but only in the case of
extremely high fever and only if you can't tough it out.
The head of the US Health Department, RFK Junior, had
promised to reveal the cause of autism before September, as
well as what can be done to cure it. The
(06:38):
answer to that, they said, is another drug called luc
of orn a folinic acid. So what does the science
actually say? Medical experts have taken to the Internet to
explain that autism is an incredibly complex condition that has
a strong genetic link, with more than one hundred related
genes identified so far. We also know that the age
of the parents plays a role and some environmental factors too.
(07:02):
The link between autism and paracetamol is based on a
review of forty six studies done by Harvard University and
Mount Sinai Means Medical Center. According to experts, the results
were so inconsistent that a meta analysis was unable to
be performed. A meta analysis is where you combine the
results of multiple independent studies to prove a single estimate
(07:23):
or outcome. It found some association in twenty seven of
those studies, but the rest did not, and the lead
author of the review stated that with these results they
cannot answer the question about causation when it comes to
answering whether there's any link between paracetamol use and autism.
A bigger study on whether there is a link was
done by Swedish researchers who looked at two point five
(07:46):
million children, including one hundred and eighty six thousand that
had been exposed to paracetamol and utero. Their initial result
was a five to seven percent increased risk of autism,
but that didn't take into account the pregnant woman themselves
who were taking the drug, because they were more likely
to have been suffering from an infection or chronic pain,
or who had ADHD or autism themselves, and we know
(08:08):
there is that genetic component to the disorder. When they
compared siblings, when one child was exposed to paracetamol and
utero and one wasn't, that initial association dropped to zero.
RFK Junior is also claiming that autism can be cured
by treating a folate disorder. Now we know that folic
acid is important during pregnancy to ensure our baby's brains
(08:29):
develop correctly. It helps prevent serious neural tube defects like
spina bifida, where the spine and spinal cord don't develop properly,
and anencephaly where the baby's skull and brain don't develop correctly.
The current research into the link between folate and autism
is mixed. There are some that suggest there is an
increased risk of autism with high folate intake and some
(08:50):
that suggest supplements can decrease the risk of autism, so
at this point the science is not conclusive. However, RFK
Junior is claiming that luca vorn, a prescription medication which
is a folate metabolite currently used to help people deal
with the side effects of chemotherapy, can cure autism for.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Pregnantly infants and toddlers. Research has revealed that fole AID
deficiency and a child's brain can lead to autism. We
have also identified and exciting therapy that may benefit larger
numbers of children who suffer from autism. Beer reviewed literature
has documented that up to sixty percent of fold AID
(09:29):
deficient children with ASD and have improve verbal communications. Have
given LUCA orin I have instructed NIHFDA, and CMS helped
doctors to treat children appropriately.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
However, there are no large scale studies to measure this
claim against with only a few very small trials currently underway.
There is a suggestion that some children with autism may
show some improvement when it comes to things such as
verbal communication. That's due to some children with autism having
auto antibodies that block folate from getting into their brains
during development. But this has not been properly tested, and
(10:07):
that would only apply to some children with autio. It
is certainly not a cure all. In response to this,
Australia's Health Minister Mark Butler called on the TGA, the
Therapeutic Goods Administration, to release their guidance for Australian pregnant
women and those with autism or who have children who do.
And they said this, the TGA has no current active
safety investigations for piracy tamol an autism or piracy tamoil
(10:30):
a neurodevelopmental disorders. More broadly, But if I was pregnant
right now and hearing all this information, I would understandably
be confused and concerned, and I would question whether I
would start to wonder if I should stop taking paracetamol
as a result. But what do you take instead, if anything?
And what are the risks you're putting yourself in if
you don't take something to deal with something like a
(10:51):
fever when you're expecting. We spoke to Scott White, a
senior lecturer in maternal fetal medicine at the University of
Western Australia. Scott, thank you so much for joining us.
I wanted to get your opinion first up on how
you respond as someone who is a medical professional who
works specifically in medicine that deals with pregnant women and
babies in euro how do you respond to claims like
(11:13):
the ones that Trump and RFK have made.
Speaker 6 (11:15):
Ideally sensitively, pregnancy is a time of joy and anxiety
for all couples, for all women, and to hear statements
like this is really quite concerning and it does make
our job as health professionals more difficult. So I'm going
to spend most of today and probably most of the
next couple of weeks debunking what's clearly a misapplication of
(11:36):
the science.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Well, can we talk about that for a moment. I
have run through what science these claims were based on
and how they are not in any kind of large
way representative of the claims that Trump and RFK are making.
But can you definitively say that paracetamol does or does
not cause autism, or are we at this stage where
we just don't understand it enough.
Speaker 6 (11:59):
My reading of the evidence is that we can definitively
say that paracetamol exposure and pregnancy does not cause autism.
The evidence from earlier studies showed and association that's very clear.
But the biggest and most important study in this area
is the study out of Sweden of two by five
million children, which showed that the association which they demonstrated
as well, completely disappeared when you're controlled for other factors
(12:21):
that are associated with autism, not least the genetic factors,
which they identified by both by looking at the siblings
of those children and looking at neurodivergent diagnosis in the
parents themselves.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Okay, well, let's look at then, the potential fallout of
telling women that paracetamol causes autism. So one of those
will be that women will stop using it if they say,
are in pain or experience a fever while they're pregnant.
Can we just talk about what implications that has.
Speaker 6 (12:48):
Yeah, the science is clear that an exposure to high fevers,
either a fever from a virus or external high temperature
that increases the mother's core temperature increases the chance of
developmental complications in that fetus after birtha and later in life,
including neurodevelopmental complications. So not treating a fever actually could
well do harm. Women need to be reassured that most
(13:09):
women who get viruses at cule fever in early pregnancy,
their babies are going to be absolutely fine, but it's
not providing that treatment, maybe doing more more harm than good.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Can we also look at potentially women avoiding paracetamol and
using other types of pain relief in its place. What
do we know about using say ibuprofen or trying to
swap in other things that potentially could help with the pain.
What impact might that have on our unborn babies.
Speaker 6 (13:36):
Absolutely so, paracetamol is clearly the safest medication to use
to treat pain and fever in early pregnancy. We know
that people who use things like ibuprofen then nonstridal and
inflammatory dugs increases slightly, but again importantly, the risk of
miscarriage if it when taken in early pregnancy and in
late pregnancy, they can do really very bad things to
babies kidneys and babi's heart and are absolutely to be avoided.
(13:56):
The one thing that was concerning from what Trump mentioned
today was using aspirin. The way we use aspirin in
pregnancy is very different to how we use aspirin outside
of pregnancy to treat pain and fever. There are women
who are recommended to take a low dose. So that's
been from early pregnancy to reduce the risk of placential
complications and pregnancy like preclamps Yeah, that's been really clearly
demonstrated to be absolutely and extremely beneficial in preventing early
(14:19):
births with those conditions, which again that early birth increases
the chance of neurodevelopmental complications.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
RFK has mentioned this folate treatment for children who have
autism and that it's being touted somewhat as a cure
for autism. I've explained why this claim is being made
and the science that they are basing this on, and
that it does not cover every child with autism, and
that it may or may not be beneficial at this point.
(14:49):
But I guess there's warnings for people who might see
this and go, Okay, if I just take a whole
bunch of fol aate, this is going to ensure my
baby doesn't get autism. Or maybe they give their kids
a whole bunch of folate in the hopes that it
will fix it. Like what do we do, like, what
do we need to make sure is in place as
a warning sign and as a guide to make sure
that doesn't happen.
Speaker 6 (15:07):
So studies that raf kan trump. We're alluding to other
studies of using folinic acid or lucovorin in autistic children.
There have been some important studies done in this area,
and they're small, they're preliminary, but they do provide some
evidence that using luca orin folinic acid may reduce some
of the verbal challenges that autistic kids can have. Is
(15:30):
it a cure for autism?
Speaker 4 (15:31):
No, it's not. Do we need to cure autism? No
we don't.
Speaker 6 (15:35):
Autisms are neurotype, not a disease. So these are the
things to think about. Those studies are very preliminary. Should
they be evaluated further? YEA, they absolutely should, because anything
that we can do to make the life of an
autistic child and their family better is something that we
should look at.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
But I wouldn't go out.
Speaker 6 (15:50):
And buy a whole part of this stuff expecting for
it to make miraculous differences to the lives of your children,
because that's not what the science suggests it will do.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
At the moment, Scott, I wanted to ask you about
Trump's message for women who are dealing with pain or
fever during their pregnancy is really just a tough it out.
And as women, we've been told just to tough it
out various ways when it comes to our health, whether
it comes to menstrual cycles or any kind of pain
really developing from the pelvic area, or even when women
(16:17):
hit things like perimenopause, we're kind of basically told to
just kind of struggle through to the other side. What
message do you have for women who, I mean understandably
will be very concerned about this message, but also are
told your pain is just something you have to suck
up and get on with.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
Yeah, a couple of things.
Speaker 6 (16:33):
So we call this medical misogyny, and it's been around
for far too long and it should be a thing
of the past, but it's still not. For generations, men
have been telling women that what happens with their body
is normal and they should just suck it up and
deal with it. Pain and fever in pregnancy are not normal,
and they are completely safe to treat. And shouldn't be
tolerated just because they're women. There is good evidence from
(16:53):
other areas of medicine where women's pain is treated less
aggressively than it is in the same condition and men,
you know, women are often told, you know, suck it up,
the delayed diagnosis in endometriosis because women are told that
period pain is normal. There's so many examples, so many
distressing examples of this in medicine, and this is just
yet another one of them. It is time for us,
particularly us men, to stop telling women to suck things up.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
What message can we leave women with today, Scott, whom
might be really worried right now, Like, what will you
be telling those women that you'll be seeing face to
face who are concerned about this.
Speaker 6 (17:25):
Claims that there's association that paracetam wal causes autism are
really not supported in any way in evidence. In fact,
the evidence, rather than just being unclear, the evidence is
very clear that parasitomol exposure and early pregnancy does not
cause autism. It's really very clear. So we can be
reassured by the science regardless of what Trump and r
of Case say. At the end of the day, when
(17:45):
we use medications in pregnancy. We do so balancing the
risks of using that medication, the potential side effects of
that medication, versus the benefits that we expect to get.
And there is significant benefit in treating pain and favor
in pregnancy in terms of those pregnancy outcomes compared to
the harm which we know very well for parasitamol, which
has been studied in such big studies to show there
really is limited, if any risk at all. And so
(18:07):
we have those conversations to help women again that decision making.
But I guess take our message at any point in pregnancy,
if you're worried about something, then speak to your midwile,
speak to your doctor, speak to the person who knows
you best, who can help you navigate these decisions through
your pregnancy.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
If we look at this announcement from a purely political position,
we've already seen how women's health has been weaponized in
the Trump administration, which changes to abortion laws after Roe v.
Wade was overturned. So could this be another deliberate strategy
and why would they do that? Well, there is a
long history of public health fear being used to make
women more compliant. Fear is a highly effective tool when
(18:44):
it comes to changing attitudes and behaviors. When a leader
raises health concerns about a common and trusted drug like paracetamol,
that motivates us, especially those in a vulnerable position like
during pregnancy and who are often the primary health decision
makers in their family, to look for guidance and to
those who have solutions, a solution like an untested cure
(19:05):
for a condition that seemed light years away from having one.
With the comment from my co host over on Well
our Women's Health podcast GP doctor Merriam, she posted this
after the Trump RFK Junior announcement, and she is not impressed.
Speaker 7 (19:20):
Autism is a complex disorder, Okay, It's a condition with
strong genetic underpinnings, not something triggered by a couple of
paracetamol tablets. Now, when politicians like Trump or conspiracy theorists
try to play doctor, it's not only laughable, it's actually dangerous.
Their medical knowledge is about as reliable as a Facebook
(19:40):
common thread at two am and JFK Junior jumping on
the bandwagon. Please both of them can kiss my ass.
And here's the truth. Parasnamol is one of the safest
and most widely used medications globally. It's recommended by the
weld Talf Organization and used by millions, millions every single day.
(20:01):
If it caused autism, we'd be seeing an epidemic that
simply doesn't exist. So let's stop spreading fear, let's stop
spreading misinformation. Medicine is about evidence, it's not about politics.
And for the record, I have a child with autism
and I never took paracetamol.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Thanks for taking the time to feed your mind with
us today. The quickie is produced by me Claire Murphy
and Alaria Brophy, with audio production by Lou Hill.
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. Mumma Mia acknowledges
the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
is recorded on.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
I'm Claire Murphy. This is Mumma MIA's twice daily news podcast,
The Quickie. US President Donald Trump told the world through
his speech at Charlie Kirk's memorial on Monday that they'd
found an answer to something that impacts an estimated more
than sixty one million people and their loved ones worldwide.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
I think we found an answer to autism. How about
that autism? Tomorrow we're going to be talking the Oval
Office in the White House about autism, how it happens,
so we won't let it happen anymore.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Yesterday announced alongside his controversial Health Secretary RFK Junior, that
the cause of autism is paracetamol. So what does this
mean for pregnant women? And just how accurate are the
findings they're basing this announcement on before we delve into this.
He's the latest from the Quickie Newsroom. Wednesday, September twenty four,
The White House has confirmed that Prime Minister Anthony Albernizi
(01:16):
will meet with US President Donald Trump next month. There
was an expectation that the leaders would meet on the
sidelines of a summit they were both attending, but back
in June at the G seven meeting in Canada, Trump
cut his time short in order to address escalating hostilities
between Iran and Israel. The two are currently attending the
UN General Assembly in New York, but the PM's offers
(01:36):
told journalists that they didn't expect a meeting there, and
with Trump's well win twenty four hour attendants, there didn't
seem to be any room for it. But the White
House has confirmed that a meeting will happen in October,
which Albernizi will attend in person in Washington. In his
speech to the UN General Assembly, US President Donald Trump
has condemned moves by Western powers to recognize a Palestinian state.
(01:58):
Trump says such steps would reward horrible atrocities by the
Palestinian militant group hum Us, calling instead for world powers
to focus on securing the release of hostages held in
Gaza nearly two two years after Hamas seized them in
the deadly attack that triggered the Gaza War. France, Britain, Canada,
Australia and Portugal have all recognized a Palestinian state in
(02:19):
the past two days. Their moves were born out of
frustration with Israel over its offensive in Gaza and intended
to promote a two state solution, but have angered Israel
and its close ally the United States. Calling for the
release of all living hostages and the bodies of those
who've died in captivity, Trump said, we have to stop
the war in Gaza immediately. We have to stop it
(02:39):
to get it done. The two state solution, the existence
of both in Israeli and a Palestinian state, was the
basis of the US backed peace process at the nineteen
ninety three oslo A Cords, but the process has all
but died, Israel's government declaring there will be no Palestinian
state as it fights Hamas in Gaza following the October
seven attack. Israel, in turn, has drawn global condemnation over
(03:02):
its military conduct in Gaza, where more than sixty five
thousand Palestinians have been killed. A meal and a drink
at Sydney Airport finally led to the arrest of the
man known as the night Stalker or the moor Park Rapist.
At least ten women reported being assaulted in Sydney's Moor
Park in Inner West areas between nineteen ninety one and
nineteen ninety three, prompting an investigation into the night Stalker,
(03:24):
but the trail ran cold and New South Wales Police
disbanded its task force in July nineteen ninety three after
eliminating all suspects. Nearly three decades later, a strike force
was established that linked four of the sexual assaults to
a single male DNA profile. A national database search returned
a familial match, leading police to Funeral director Glengarry Cameron.
(03:46):
After the Alice Springs resident finished his meal at a
Sydney International Airport restaurant in January twenty twenty four, police
officers grabbed his fork and glass for forensic analysis. The
DNA was deemed to be a match and Cameron was
arrested when he returned to Australia. The sixty one year
old on Tuesday faced the Downing Centre Local Court, where
he admitted to raping and indecently assaulting the women while
(04:07):
wielding a variety of knives which he held against their
skin and threatened to use. Cameron pleaded guilty to thirteen charges,
with another fourteen to be taken into consideration when he's sentenced.
James Vanderbeek made a surprise appearance at the Dawson's Creek
reunion after having to drop out due to illness. The
forty eight year old actor, who's battling stage three colorectal cancer,
(04:29):
had made his apologies for missing the event, where the
cast reunited for a live reading of the pilot episode
to raise money for cancer research, due to suffering from
two stomach viruses, but he shocked fans at the Richard
Rogers Theater in New York when he made a virtual
appearance in a pre recorded video. He said, I've been
looking forward to this night for months and months, ever
since my angel, Michelle Williams said she was putting it together.
(04:51):
He said, I can't believe I'm not there. I can't
believe I don't get to see my castmates, my beautiful
cast in person. He thanked the show's fans and then
introduced his understudy for the event, joking it was definitely
an upgrade on him. As Hamilton star Lynn Manuel Miranda
appeared on stage. Former Dawson's cast mates Katie Holmes, Joshua Jackson,
and Busy Phillips joined Michelle Williams for the event. That's
(05:13):
what's happening in the world today. Next, Trump linked paracetamol
use in expectant mothers to autism. And now we have
another thing to worry about. But what studies were used
to link these two together and how reliable is that information.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
Effective?
Speaker 5 (05:30):
Immediately, the FDA will be notifying physicians at the use
of asset menifen acetamenofen, which is basically commonly known as
thailand oil during pregnancy, can be associated with a very
increased risk of autism. So taking tail and oil is.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
Not good.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
That was a message from US President Donald Trump yesterday
as he announced a link between increasing rates of diagnosed
autism in the US to the use of the drug
thailandol by pregnant women. It's commonly used to relieve pain
and fever. The drug which you'll hear being called a
set of minifre and its generic name we call here
in Australia paracetamol, the most commonly taken painkiller in the world.
(06:17):
Trump suggested women who are dealing with a fever simply
tough it out, and if they can't, maybe you will
have to get taylanol, but only in the case of
extremely high fever and only if you can't tough it out.
The head of the US Health Department, RFK Junior, had
promised to reveal the cause of autism before September, as
well as what can be done to cure it. The
(06:38):
answer to that, they said, is another drug called luc
of orn a folinic acid. So what does the science
actually say? Medical experts have taken to the Internet to
explain that autism is an incredibly complex condition that has
a strong genetic link, with more than one hundred related
genes identified so far. We also know that the age
of the parents plays a role and some environmental factors too.
(07:02):
The link between autism and paracetamol is based on a
review of forty six studies done by Harvard University and
Mount Sinai Means Medical Center. According to experts, the results
were so inconsistent that a meta analysis was unable to
be performed. A meta analysis is where you combine the
results of multiple independent studies to prove a single estimate
(07:23):
or outcome. It found some association in twenty seven of
those studies, but the rest did not, and the lead
author of the review stated that with these results they
cannot answer the question about causation when it comes to
answering whether there's any link between paracetamol use and autism.
A bigger study on whether there is a link was
done by Swedish researchers who looked at two point five
(07:46):
million children, including one hundred and eighty six thousand that
had been exposed to paracetamol and utero. Their initial result
was a five to seven percent increased risk of autism,
but that didn't take into account the pregnant woman themselves
who were taking the drug, because they were more likely
to have been suffering from an infection or chronic pain,
or who had ADHD or autism themselves, and we know
(08:08):
there is that genetic component to the disorder. When they
compared siblings, when one child was exposed to paracetamol and
utero and one wasn't, that initial association dropped to zero.
RFK Junior is also claiming that autism can be cured
by treating a folate disorder. Now we know that folic
acid is important during pregnancy to ensure our baby's brains
(08:29):
develop correctly. It helps prevent serious neural tube defects like
spina bifida, where the spine and spinal cord don't develop properly,
and anencephaly where the baby's skull and brain don't develop correctly.
The current research into the link between folate and autism
is mixed. There are some that suggest there is an
increased risk of autism with high folate intake and some
(08:50):
that suggest supplements can decrease the risk of autism, so
at this point the science is not conclusive. However, RFK
Junior is claiming that luca vorn, a prescription medication which
is a folate metabolite currently used to help people deal
with the side effects of chemotherapy, can cure autism for.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Pregnantly infants and toddlers. Research has revealed that fole AID
deficiency and a child's brain can lead to autism. We
have also identified and exciting therapy that may benefit larger
numbers of children who suffer from autism. Beer reviewed literature
has documented that up to sixty percent of fold AID
(09:29):
deficient children with ASD and have improve verbal communications. Have
given LUCA orin I have instructed NIHFDA, and CMS helped
doctors to treat children appropriately.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
However, there are no large scale studies to measure this
claim against with only a few very small trials currently underway.
There is a suggestion that some children with autism may
show some improvement when it comes to things such as
verbal communication. That's due to some children with autism having
auto antibodies that block folate from getting into their brains
during development. But this has not been properly tested, and
(10:07):
that would only apply to some children with autio. It
is certainly not a cure all. In response to this,
Australia's Health Minister Mark Butler called on the TGA, the
Therapeutic Goods Administration, to release their guidance for Australian pregnant
women and those with autism or who have children who do.
And they said this, the TGA has no current active
safety investigations for piracy tamol an autism or piracy tamoil
(10:30):
a neurodevelopmental disorders. More broadly, But if I was pregnant
right now and hearing all this information, I would understandably
be confused and concerned, and I would question whether I
would start to wonder if I should stop taking paracetamol
as a result. But what do you take instead, if anything?
And what are the risks you're putting yourself in if
you don't take something to deal with something like a
(10:51):
fever when you're expecting. We spoke to Scott White, a
senior lecturer in maternal fetal medicine at the University of
Western Australia. Scott, thank you so much for joining us.
I wanted to get your opinion first up on how
you respond as someone who is a medical professional who
works specifically in medicine that deals with pregnant women and
babies in euro how do you respond to claims like
(11:13):
the ones that Trump and RFK have made.
Speaker 6 (11:15):
Ideally sensitively, pregnancy is a time of joy and anxiety
for all couples, for all women, and to hear statements
like this is really quite concerning and it does make
our job as health professionals more difficult. So I'm going
to spend most of today and probably most of the
next couple of weeks debunking what's clearly a misapplication of
(11:36):
the science.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Well, can we talk about that for a moment. I
have run through what science these claims were based on
and how they are not in any kind of large
way representative of the claims that Trump and RFK are making.
But can you definitively say that paracetamol does or does
not cause autism, or are we at this stage where
we just don't understand it enough.
Speaker 6 (11:59):
My reading of the evidence is that we can definitively
say that paracetamol exposure and pregnancy does not cause autism.
The evidence from earlier studies showed and association that's very clear.
But the biggest and most important study in this area
is the study out of Sweden of two by five
million children, which showed that the association which they demonstrated
as well, completely disappeared when you're controlled for other factors
(12:21):
that are associated with autism, not least the genetic factors,
which they identified by both by looking at the siblings
of those children and looking at neurodivergent diagnosis in the
parents themselves.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Okay, well, let's look at then, the potential fallout of
telling women that paracetamol causes autism. So one of those
will be that women will stop using it if they say,
are in pain or experience a fever while they're pregnant.
Can we just talk about what implications that has.
Speaker 6 (12:48):
Yeah, the science is clear that an exposure to high fevers,
either a fever from a virus or external high temperature
that increases the mother's core temperature increases the chance of
developmental complications in that fetus after birtha and later in life,
including neurodevelopmental complications. So not treating a fever actually could
well do harm. Women need to be reassured that most
(13:09):
women who get viruses at cule fever in early pregnancy,
their babies are going to be absolutely fine, but it's
not providing that treatment, maybe doing more more harm than good.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Can we also look at potentially women avoiding paracetamol and
using other types of pain relief in its place. What
do we know about using say ibuprofen or trying to
swap in other things that potentially could help with the pain.
What impact might that have on our unborn babies.
Speaker 6 (13:36):
Absolutely so, paracetamol is clearly the safest medication to use
to treat pain and fever in early pregnancy. We know
that people who use things like ibuprofen then nonstridal and
inflammatory dugs increases slightly, but again importantly, the risk of
miscarriage if it when taken in early pregnancy and in
late pregnancy, they can do really very bad things to
babies kidneys and babi's heart and are absolutely to be avoided.
(13:56):
The one thing that was concerning from what Trump mentioned
today was using aspirin. The way we use aspirin in
pregnancy is very different to how we use aspirin outside
of pregnancy to treat pain and fever. There are women
who are recommended to take a low dose. So that's
been from early pregnancy to reduce the risk of placential
complications and pregnancy like preclamps Yeah, that's been really clearly
demonstrated to be absolutely and extremely beneficial in preventing early
(14:19):
births with those conditions, which again that early birth increases
the chance of neurodevelopmental complications.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
RFK has mentioned this folate treatment for children who have
autism and that it's being touted somewhat as a cure
for autism. I've explained why this claim is being made
and the science that they are basing this on, and
that it does not cover every child with autism, and
that it may or may not be beneficial at this point.
(14:49):
But I guess there's warnings for people who might see
this and go, Okay, if I just take a whole
bunch of fol aate, this is going to ensure my
baby doesn't get autism. Or maybe they give their kids
a whole bunch of folate in the hopes that it
will fix it. Like what do we do, like, what
do we need to make sure is in place as
a warning sign and as a guide to make sure
that doesn't happen.
Speaker 6 (15:07):
So studies that raf kan trump. We're alluding to other
studies of using folinic acid or lucovorin in autistic children.
There have been some important studies done in this area,
and they're small, they're preliminary, but they do provide some
evidence that using luca orin folinic acid may reduce some
of the verbal challenges that autistic kids can have. Is
(15:30):
it a cure for autism?
Speaker 4 (15:31):
No, it's not. Do we need to cure autism? No
we don't.
Speaker 6 (15:35):
Autisms are neurotype, not a disease. So these are the
things to think about. Those studies are very preliminary. Should
they be evaluated further? YEA, they absolutely should, because anything
that we can do to make the life of an
autistic child and their family better is something that we
should look at.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
But I wouldn't go out.
Speaker 6 (15:50):
And buy a whole part of this stuff expecting for
it to make miraculous differences to the lives of your children,
because that's not what the science suggests it will do.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
At the moment, Scott, I wanted to ask you about
Trump's message for women who are dealing with pain or
fever during their pregnancy is really just a tough it out.
And as women, we've been told just to tough it
out various ways when it comes to our health, whether
it comes to menstrual cycles or any kind of pain
really developing from the pelvic area, or even when women
(16:17):
hit things like perimenopause, we're kind of basically told to
just kind of struggle through to the other side. What
message do you have for women who, I mean understandably
will be very concerned about this message, but also are
told your pain is just something you have to suck
up and get on with.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
Yeah, a couple of things.
Speaker 6 (16:33):
So we call this medical misogyny, and it's been around
for far too long and it should be a thing
of the past, but it's still not. For generations, men
have been telling women that what happens with their body
is normal and they should just suck it up and
deal with it. Pain and fever in pregnancy are not normal,
and they are completely safe to treat. And shouldn't be
tolerated just because they're women. There is good evidence from
(16:53):
other areas of medicine where women's pain is treated less
aggressively than it is in the same condition and men,
you know, women are often told, you know, suck it up,
the delayed diagnosis in endometriosis because women are told that
period pain is normal. There's so many examples, so many
distressing examples of this in medicine, and this is just
yet another one of them. It is time for us,
particularly us men, to stop telling women to suck things up.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
What message can we leave women with today, Scott, whom
might be really worried right now, Like, what will you
be telling those women that you'll be seeing face to
face who are concerned about this.
Speaker 6 (17:25):
Claims that there's association that paracetam wal causes autism are
really not supported in any way in evidence. In fact,
the evidence, rather than just being unclear, the evidence is
very clear that parasitomol exposure and early pregnancy does not
cause autism. It's really very clear. So we can be
reassured by the science regardless of what Trump and r
of Case say. At the end of the day, when
(17:45):
we use medications in pregnancy. We do so balancing the
risks of using that medication, the potential side effects of
that medication, versus the benefits that we expect to get.
And there is significant benefit in treating pain and favor
in pregnancy in terms of those pregnancy outcomes compared to
the harm which we know very well for parasitamol, which
has been studied in such big studies to show there
really is limited, if any risk at all. And so
(18:07):
we have those conversations to help women again that decision making.
But I guess take our message at any point in pregnancy,
if you're worried about something, then speak to your midwile,
speak to your doctor, speak to the person who knows
you best, who can help you navigate these decisions through
your pregnancy.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
If we look at this announcement from a purely political position,
we've already seen how women's health has been weaponized in
the Trump administration, which changes to abortion laws after Roe v.
Wade was overturned. So could this be another deliberate strategy
and why would they do that? Well, there is a
long history of public health fear being used to make
women more compliant. Fear is a highly effective tool when
(18:44):
it comes to changing attitudes and behaviors. When a leader
raises health concerns about a common and trusted drug like paracetamol,
that motivates us, especially those in a vulnerable position like
during pregnancy and who are often the primary health decision
makers in their family, to look for guidance and to
those who have solutions, a solution like an untested cure
(19:05):
for a condition that seemed light years away from having one.
With the comment from my co host over on Well
our Women's Health podcast GP doctor Merriam, she posted this
after the Trump RFK Junior announcement, and she is not impressed.
Speaker 7 (19:20):
Autism is a complex disorder, Okay, It's a condition with
strong genetic underpinnings, not something triggered by a couple of
paracetamol tablets. Now, when politicians like Trump or conspiracy theorists
try to play doctor, it's not only laughable, it's actually dangerous.
Their medical knowledge is about as reliable as a Facebook
(19:40):
common thread at two am and JFK Junior jumping on
the bandwagon. Please both of them can kiss my ass.
And here's the truth. Parasnamol is one of the safest
and most widely used medications globally. It's recommended by the
weld Talf Organization and used by millions, millions every single day.
(20:01):
If it caused autism, we'd be seeing an epidemic that
simply doesn't exist. So let's stop spreading fear, let's stop
spreading misinformation. Medicine is about evidence, it's not about politics.
And for the record, I have a child with autism
and I never took paracetamol.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Thanks for taking the time to feed your mind with
us today. The quickie is produced by me Claire Murphy
and Alaria Brophy, with audio production by Lou Hill.
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