May 25, 2025 • 32 mins
In this special final episode of This Glorious Mess, leading psychologist and one of Australia's most sought-after voices on child development, Claire Rowe shares her insights on guiding our daughters through the emotionally intense world of female friendships. Claire unpacks normal friendship drama and actual bullying, from playground politics to social media pressures; and the big mistake we are all making and hindering their resilience.
And after ten years of parenting conversations, confessions and chaos, the TGM team bids a final farewell and the OG team pop in to say goodbye - Holly Wainwright, Andrew Daddo, Leigh Campbell, Libby Trickett and Sarah Marie Fahd. They reminisce about how the show has guided countless parents through their "glorious messes" and celebrate the show's legacy of embracing imperfect parenting and creating a supportive community where the chaos, triumphs and challenges of raising children have been shared with honesty and humour.
We’ve got a new family brand coming, so watch this space and keep your eye on this feed for something special coming in June.
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With thanks to Clare Rowe
CREDITS:
Hosts: Annaliese Todd & Tegan Natoli
Producer: Tina Matolov
Audio Producer: Jacob Round
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
this glorious mess. We are embracing the chaos together, ditching
the judgment.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
I'm Tiagin Atolly.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
I'm a business owner of two business scissors and a
mother of three children's.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
And I'm analyst Todd.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I am a lifestyle producer here at Mamma Mia. I'm
also a single mother of a teenager and tween aged sons.
And today we are thrilled to welcome to the show.
Leading Australian psychologist, speaker and writer Claire wrote to talk
about navigating the complex world of our girls. Claire's career
as a child an adolescent mental health clinician has seen
(01:01):
her work with hundreds of families. Claire's the founder of
Rowan Associates Child and Family Psychology and one of us
straighti's most sought after voices child development. So today we
can't wait to ask Claire how we can navigate everything
from playground politics to teenage friendship dramas and how we
can guide our girls through the vast array and such
(01:23):
a vast array of social challenges for years to come. Yes,
Claire will share her insights on how we can foster resilience,
emotional intelligence, and healthy relationships with our daughters, and how
we can encourage them to have positive female friendships at
all ages.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
But first, oh stop.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Here is what's happening in my final group chat. Oh god,
so so analyse. This might be lighting up your group
chat too. Yep, but today is our final episode of
this gloriousness. Now we're both I know, now we're getting emotional. Yes,
(02:05):
this is our final episode. We will be wrapping up.
I personally have been hosting TGM with quite a few
different hosts over the years since Banjo was six months old.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
He is now six and.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
A half, so that's a long time.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
It's a really long time. It's making me feel old.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
A lot of group chats, so many lot of nails
and fails.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
But yeah, it's it's wrapping up. It's the end of
the this Glorious Mess era. We have seen so many
beautiful hosts. We've divided into big kids and little kids.
We've come back to to you know, all the kids
and all the ages, and we've had so many wonderful
listeners contribute over the years with you know, their dilemmas
(02:49):
or their tips and tricks. You know, it's just been
an amazing community. And I feel like, you know, I've
had a mum's group, you know, like I've had a
community of people even on my personal Instagram who are
you know, are listeners of the show. And we've basically
raised our children together and navigated that.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Most of the time not knowing what the hell we're doing.
So we will.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Continue to parent and not know what the hell we're doing.
And Mama May I have got a brand new family
brand coming. So watch this space and keep an eye
on this feed for something very special starting in June,
and later on in the show, we're going to be
hearing from some of the hosts or actually well the
former hosts of This Glorious Mess, from Holly Wainwright.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
To Daddoh to Lee Libby Been a few.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
And then me of course, Oh the last you are.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
You're going out with a bang. You're the voice.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Try and understand it. That's coming up later in the show.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Today, we're joined by psychologists Claire Row to unpack the
complex world of female friendships and how we can help
our daughters build healthy, supportive relationships from an early age.
Welcome to this glorious mess, Claire.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
Thanks guys, nice to be here.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
This is a minefield. Excited to unpack this. I've got
seven year old twin girls, So like, I feel like
this is I'm just you know, this is all.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Friend Yes, this is all starting.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Can you tell us why are friendships between girls so
emotionally intense and sometimes so explosive compared to boys?
Speaker 4 (04:27):
Oh, my gosh, intense is the right words?
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Are puppy dogs?
Speaker 5 (04:31):
So you.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
And my daughter's eight, so I'm right with you. It's
just about off.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (04:38):
So, like we know that girls develop social emotional skills
and verbal skills right earlier than boys, and I think
they're friendships even as adults.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
It's so different.
Speaker 6 (04:50):
Our friendships are based on so much of a deep
emotional connection.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
Right.
Speaker 6 (04:54):
So, my eight year old for a couple of years
has been taking like a secret diary to school and
her or her friends right their secrets in and they
tell each other feeling.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
It's not the.
Speaker 6 (05:05):
I've had a quick look at it, but you know
it's based on kind of secret telling and she sharing
feelings and personal stories, and you know that that friendship
as we have with adults. With our female friends is
really powerful and beautiful, but there's a lot at stake
when it goes wrong, whereas boys have their friendships kind
of more on what they can do together, right if
(05:26):
you like soccer, were a soccer kid, and so you
know when you Yeah, there's a lot at stake for
a girl if you lose a friendship, whereas as.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
You might be able to find someone else who can
kick a ball.
Speaker 6 (05:38):
But yeah, I just think that our friendships are so
based on that deeper emotional connection and that there is
an intensity to it. Everyone knows girls use what psychologists
call is relational aggression, you know, as opposed to physical
So that's the silent treatment and the gossiping and the
starting a group without someone, elusion, all that stuff, that
(06:01):
mean god stuff. It's not really mean girls. It's not
girls being mean. It's it's just it's how we operate.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
It really is.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
And we're talking about me girls the Burn Book. Obviously
we all know the movie. How do we distinguish between
just normal sort of girl drama and real bullying, mean
girl stuff.
Speaker 6 (06:20):
Oh, it's such an important question because I've been talking
about this for over ten years about not labeling every
friendship fallout as bullying. And you know the amount of
bullying campaigns we have now in school, by the way,
bullying rates seem to not be you know, getting any
better because of that. But it's kind of weaponized that
(06:40):
word of bullying. And so if you have a friendship
fallout for girls, it's like she's bullying me and it
could just be a clash of personalities. You know, we
need to teach our girls that this is part of life,
like it happens, and some friendships recover from that, some don't.
That's okay, it's not bullying. It's a bullying by definition,
(07:00):
is like that targeted towards one person. There's usually some
type of power imbalance, but it's really targeted and relentless
over a period of time, you know, having some drama
because you know, my friend didn't lend me her smiggle
rubber today and she lent it to everyone else.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
Yeah, that's not bullying.
Speaker 6 (07:19):
I mean, it might not be very nice behavior, but
we need to make sure we're not using that word
bullying inappropriately.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
And how can parents support their daughters through friendship issues
without stepping in too soon or making it worse?
Speaker 6 (07:33):
Yeah, I think that's the biggest thing. I think we
just going to fix it mode way too early. And
I personally don't think that female friendship difficulties can be
avoided in certainly in teenage years adult years, you might
get out of it better than others, but I don't
think it can be avoided, and it shouldn't be. I
think it's a normal developmental process where you know, it's
(07:56):
a training ground for learning, taking perspective on things and
boundary setting and problem solving. So we've got to let
kids go through it. And it's hard because it's really
awful when you're sitting with your daughter and she's just
in pain out to you. But one of the things
I like to do is if your daughter's come home
and she's, you know, telling you how awful her day
(08:18):
was and everything's going wrong, is to sit with it
for a while with her and you can you know,
we all know about validating kids emotions and saying that
that sounds really tough. But then the question I like
to ask is, Okay, what do you want to do
about it?
Speaker 4 (08:34):
First? You know, what, what what would.
Speaker 6 (08:36):
You like to try tomorrow and see what they come
up with first.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
That's really interesting.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Yeah, because you think that sometimes if your kids having
a hard time, you're you're so quick to just step
in and you know, like, yeah, fix, fix, and here's
what I think you should do or here's what you
hate when men do that totally, like we hate.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
That explaining yes exactly.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Sometimes I say to my husband, I'm like, you need
to just ask me, do I want a solution already?
Speaker 1 (09:03):
You know, just to listen or to fix it?
Speaker 2 (09:05):
And maybe that's what we need to start considering with
our kids, you know, well our girls, so like, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Shall I just listen?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Or But turning it around and making them think of
the solution is just such a wonderful idea.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
It's resilience absolutely we all need.
Speaker 6 (09:21):
And then you can guide them from that. They got
up with the most ridiculous, awful I'm going to show there,
but you know, starting off at that point, what would
you like to do about that?
Speaker 4 (09:34):
And what do you think you could do differently tomorrow?
Speaker 6 (09:36):
And how how do you think that they're feeling at
the moment, To try and get different perspectives and go
from that point first, Yeah, that's really really helpful.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
So the big mind field, the big one that all
the parents are fearing. We're all scared because we didn't
grow up with it. Is social media? What and how
and why? Just what can we do? Where do we start?
Speaker 6 (09:59):
Yeah, well, social media band as we know is coming
in we think into this country at the end of
this year. Yes, for sixteen and a sixteen year old,
it's under sixteen now. I've been very catastrophic about screens
and social media for the last ten years with kids.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
I don't think.
Speaker 6 (10:18):
Any child under the age of sixteen should have a smartphone.
I don't think any kid under high school should have
a phone. Quite frankly, I think kids in high school
shouldn't have You don't need phones, but I appreciate that
they're probably going to have phones. I don't think any
kids should have the Internet in their pocket at all times.
When it comes to relationships, we all know it's the
(10:40):
obvious thing, which is.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
There's just no break.
Speaker 6 (10:43):
You know, there's absolutely no break to the exclusion on
the number of likes or the chat that you're not
involved in, or who viewed your story, or being left
unread or you know, it's just relentless. And in fact,
I would argue that when they come home, the intensity
picks up because at least you would assume that when
they're in their maths and science and English lessons, they're
(11:05):
not looking at their phone, whereas a lot of kids
come home and that's it.
Speaker 4 (11:09):
That's their complete world.
Speaker 6 (11:11):
Is staring into that box of external validation and a
continuation of these friendship dramas. And it is intense for
females and every single little I call them microdramas. You know,
their days are filled with microdramas.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
And feel like, as a grown woman.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Yes, my days also for micro dramas.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah, same, is that just a woman thing?
Speaker 2 (11:37):
I don't know if the genie is already out of
the bottle, because I will be on I mean, I
don't have daughters. I've got sons, and my thirteen year
old has a mobile and I'm sure a lot of
people listening are like, Okay, so we've already the genie's done.
The horse has bolted. If they're using it, what sort
of things can we put in place? How do we
parent in this new world?
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (11:58):
And I want to be very careful not to blame parents,
because I one hundred percent think it's harder today than
a generation or two ago.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
I'm doing it myself. I see parents every day.
Speaker 6 (12:09):
I know it's harder, but I do think that you
need to make conscious choices of how your household is
going to run between the hours of four pm and
ten pm, and that has to be carved out free
time off devices. You have to be able to give
their brain a force break. They're not going to like it,
(12:30):
but it has to be a force break off that phone.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
And I think even you know, our guests the other week,
Gen mu Or, she mentioned about having a family reset.
So even if you do have the phones and they
are on devices, like I think that once they're out
and that's the way it is, it doesn't mean that,
you know, it can't be shaped and monitored in different ways,
you know, as you go on.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (12:52):
So you know, she mentioned having a device reset, so
you know, like, hey, here's some new rules and boundaries
around devices. And I think that's really handy. And I
know my kids have iPads, they don't have phones. They're
really young, but like even with the iPads, I have
to like when the school term starts or you've had
two weeks of school holidays, you know, they get a
(13:12):
bit more onto it and you're like, Okay, we need
a bit of a reset here because this is getting
a bit crazy. Yeah, and I think that's a really
positive way that for those parents that might be worried.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Oh no, I've already done it.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yeah, I found as well. It's not even so much
about the time. It's the conversations that you have around
the phone use you like, you know.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
We've got rules.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
It's like, if you see X y Z, what are
you going to do? Okay, well, this is the phone rule.
And if you see this online, if someone if you
see bullying in a group chat, this is the rule.
Speaker 6 (13:41):
Yeah, give it that tools before they before they see it.
And I think it's a lot easier. Well, it should
be a lot easier for people coming into giving children
these devices and access to social media. I work with
families and I give them a whole contract. Okay, so
there's a whole contract. The child signs that, the parents
signs it, and you start from that point.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (14:01):
But I also don't think that we can throw our
hands up if I've got a fourteen or fifteen year
old and say oh it's just too late. Now we
have to say it's going to be harder. Maybe, but
I have to do it for the sake of their
well being and development and mental health. You know, I
have I have to be able to do it. I mean,
when children first get onto social media, I think they
have to jump through certain hoops to be able to
(14:21):
be proved to parents they're trustworthy. That that may include
I have to be following you on there. Okay, I'll
make some account, secret account, your friends won't see me,
but I need to be following you. I need to
be able to check your phone. I need to be
able to not have a pass code on the phone.
There are certain hoops that I make no apologies for the.
Speaker 4 (14:45):
Children jump through.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Not sleeping with phones.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
In rooms so important, so important?
Speaker 1 (14:52):
What about this is a this is a curve ball.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
So what if you are looking at your daughter and
you're like, I think my daughter's Regina George, I think
she's a mean girl.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Like what can you do?
Speaker 2 (15:05):
What sort of things can you Conversations like how do
we work with that? If you you're seeing that your
daughter is actually probably not the angel that you.
Speaker 6 (15:15):
I often think that that's almost harder than having the
child that's kind of victimized and to be able to
come to that reality I think you really need to
keep an open mind. I'm not talking about vilifying children
and immediately saying well.
Speaker 4 (15:30):
What did you do wrong?
Speaker 6 (15:32):
Sure, but parents do need to keep an open conversation
with their children about their role in friendship dynamics. You know,
it's not about continually trying to apologize to people being
mean to you, but having that open conversation about what
could you do tomorrow? And then if you do suspect
Hang on a second. This has been grade one, grade two,
(15:53):
grade three. My child may be the common denominator here.
I think trying to have friends over where you can
see it in situ and trying to kind of watch
that interaction play out, and then you can kind of
do some coaching with them at the time and kind
of bring them over afterwards and say, see what happened there.
You can use things like books and movies to try
(16:14):
and you know, ask children about how people feel in
different scenarios. But ultimately we need to try and figure
out the why behind the behavior.
Speaker 4 (16:25):
What that need is.
Speaker 6 (16:27):
Is it a need to be popular with a certain group,
Is it a need to kind of throw their weight around?
And why do you feel like that that you need
to do that, So it's they're hard conversations to have,
and I suppose in a primary school level that probably
would warrant some type of communication with teachers who are
(16:48):
with them every day to try and get help guide
them and get information from them as well.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
So I was leading with curiosity like that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Coming up after this shortbreak, more wisdom from Claire on
navigating female friendships in our teens and young girls.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
That's next.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
So many parents worry about raising confident girls. I know
obviously having two girls, that's one thing I think about
quite a lot, especially with all the social media out there.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
What are some strategies that you'd.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Recommend helping girls develop a healthy self esteem that isn't
dependent on that external validation.
Speaker 6 (17:29):
Well, I think the antidote to external validation obviously is
internal self worth. So we need to raise our children,
but particularly our girls, to know that their value comes
from who they are and not their image. You know,
their character and not the number of likes that they're
getting online.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
And I think that that starts early.
Speaker 6 (17:48):
We know that it's about praising effort over outcome and
things like that.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
I think the other thing.
Speaker 6 (17:56):
Which is true for all kids, but particularly for females,
I actually think they need to have some type of
mastery or competence at something. I think I see a
lot of teenage girls who are a little bit adrift,
and they're only competent is probably posting online.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
You know, whether that's sports or coding, or dance or
a part time. And it doesn't have to be more
than one thing.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
And I feel like with girls as well, like you
don't have to be the best at it, but just
find something that gives you a little purpose or a
bit of direction, or something that your sibling might not
be into.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
It's you know exactly, it's your thing.
Speaker 6 (18:35):
Yeah, Because I think that I say that confidence doesn't
come from compliments, it comes from competency. Okay, Okay like that, yeah,
And so having a mastery over a skill one skill
is I think really important. The other thing I try
to keep in mind myself as a mother is just
watching your own relationship with your own body and your
(18:56):
own appearance, and how you deal with these issues and
your own friendships, what you're modeling to your child. Now,
my eight year old daughter sees me in the morning's
preating because I like that, and she sees me doing
my hair and putting makeup on.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
She likes that kind of thing. That's fine.
Speaker 6 (19:15):
I think the difference is she then doesn't see me
taking ten photos to get the right angle to post it.
Speaker 4 (19:21):
So I'm just doing it for myself.
Speaker 6 (19:23):
Yeah, she doesn't see me checking to see, oh that
was a good photo, let's put that up.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
And yeah, you know, I've never thought about that.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
I probably do that, but I've got sons, but I
actually need to be at.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Least you've got the boys.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
I'd be like mom, when you stop talking selfish, because
obviously we always hear about you know, we don't talk
badly about our bodies. But actually that's that phone, social
media relationship and the modeling.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
That's the first time I've heard that. That's a bigger huh.
Speaker 6 (19:52):
I think I definitely have improvement with the technology. My
kids see me on my phone a lot. I do
a lot of media work, and they you know, that's
my excuse in my head, it's work, it's work, But
that's that's irrelevant. They see me on my phone too much,
so that's a big one. And then modeling your own
female friendships in terms of healthy falling out, that's okay, Yeah,
(20:16):
just say you know, we've had a bit of an
argument and then we're you know, we've either rectified that
or not and apologize.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
I apologize, ow, yeah, sorry.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
It's so important when I think about my life. My
most important relationships outside my family are my girlfriends, of course.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Yeah, And it's so important.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
That they have these tools of how to identify good
people who have their back, who are going to be
there through thick and thin, because they are the ones
that get us through life. And I think as well,
especially making the point that you don't just have to
have one BFF.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Like I feel like girls, especially.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Around my girl's age, they get quite clicky and they
like their one best friend. And I'm like, yeah, but
you know that you can have all the friends, like
you can have more than one friend.
Speaker 6 (20:58):
It's definitely another difference between the females and the boys.
Female seems to expect this exclusiveness and it's real loyalty
from friends, which over time is really hard to sustain.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
As friendships change into.
Speaker 6 (21:13):
Tween years and teenage years, it's really difficult to sustain.
And we know that boys, generally speaking, they don't even
use the word best friend. You don't hear of primary
school boys saying my best Yeah, definitely not teenage.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Boys I play soccer with or.
Speaker 6 (21:29):
The you know, it's about what they do together, the
activity true, whereas females really like to categorize their friends
and it's like that's my bestie and they expect undivided
loyalty from them, that's it, and not loyalty like we
would talk about it about having your back. They are
talking about loyalty like you will not sit with someone else.
(21:50):
That's not, again, a mean girl thing. If that's how
your child is talking. It's actually really developmentally a normal
process for girls to go through. But having those conversations
about you know, her sitting with someone else that lunchtime
doesn't mean that there's.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
Less friendship for you.
Speaker 6 (22:06):
It's not a bucket where we have a finite amount,
we can only give it to certain people.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
But that's definitely a difference between the boys and girls.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
So for people who are raising girls women the next generation,
what's your number one sort of takeaway and advice for
raising the next generation of brilliant women?
Speaker 4 (22:25):
Oh my goodness, that's a big question.
Speaker 6 (22:30):
Pressure look of all of these things, I would probably
come back to what I say, which is, don't rush
into fix things. We don't have to rush up to
the school. We don't have to rescue our kids from everything.
I think the biggest thing for me working with kids
and families in mental health in general is we need
(22:50):
to teach young people to sit with discomfort, to be
able to say that not just are all negative feelings valid,
but they're also manageable.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Allow them to learn to navigate the situation.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
And that's really hard. As a parent, you do just
want to come in and fix.
Speaker 6 (23:09):
And say this is an awful time for you and
I know how that feels myself, and I want this
to go away. But then they're not learning life skills.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
They're going to.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Need that when they do leave the nest. They really
do need them.
Speaker 6 (23:21):
Yeah, that's right, So don't rush in to fix. Teach
kids that discomfort and pain are a part of life
and are manageable, that they will get through it.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
And then you can reflect back on.
Speaker 6 (23:32):
That and s see you did, and now we just
need to prepare ourselves for the next time.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Well, Claire, thank you so much for your time today.
We've loved chatting to you about all things girls and
kids and parenting and female friendships. Yes, friendships, loved it.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
Thank you guys, thank you.
Speaker 7 (23:54):
Well.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
That brings us to the end, Oh my god, very
end of this glorious Oh.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
No, don't seem to us.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
We're going to round out the show hearing from the
former home of this glorious mess, to wrap up what
has been a brilliant mess. But tegus, I wanted to
say on behalf of Mumma Mia, thank you so much
for sharing your life of five years, your parenting, your mess,
your humor. Everybody has gotten so much of everything that
(24:28):
you bring each week. And I have loved every second
of being on this show with you the last year.
Oh so many laughs, and we've learned so much. I
feel like we are a little bit better parents from
all the experts.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
We're certainly trying to be a work in progress, but.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
So many laughs, so much fun. So thank you, so
much fun. And thank you for being a beautiful co host.
I've had the pleasure of having so many wonderful co
hosts over the years. And you know, we're ending with
a bang. I think, you know, even looking at Andrew
and Holly's kids and they're not kids anymore. They and
this started god, so so many years ago, so It's
(25:07):
been a privilege to be a part of the show
and hopefully you'll still see my face pop up every
now and then all hear my voice somewhere, absolutely, and
it has been a privilege to share this final part
of the journey with you, my beautiful friend and Elise
same to tease, and you know what, you're not getting
rid of me. We are friends, I Ara.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
God, I have to talk to you from things other
than we ever.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
And also you know, Tina and I aren't going anywhere
from Mamma Mia will still be popping up in your
feed insufferably yes on.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Muma Mere's Instagram.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
I write for Mamma Mia and you know occasionally our
voices will pop into your ears and bless you months
more unfortunately for your thank you so much for tuning
in over the years.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
We will miss you, and I hope you miss us too.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
And we hope that you enjoyed this episode and finishing
on female friendships, which I actually really love because they
are the most important things in our lives. That's right,
So we hope that our girls and daughters get it right.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
This one's for the mums and the mums groups.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Thank you for listening to the five This Glorious Mess,
but the very last time. We hope you enjoyed this episode.
Thank you for being a part of the Mess. This
episode was produced by Teena met Love, with audio production
by Jacob Brown.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Farewell, Oh won't see you next week.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Chau forinow chow for now.
Speaker 8 (26:27):
This Glorious messs I was. I'm Holly Wainwright and I
was the original host of This Glorious Mess with my friend.
He wasn't my friend then, but my friend Andrew Daddo,
and we started that show in twenty fifteen, ten years ago.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Oh my god.
Speaker 8 (26:43):
It was one of the very first podcasts that Muma
Mia made. And I remember so clearly going in recording
the pilot with Andrew, who I'd never met before, at
a studio in Sydney, and I was so nervous because
I'd never been on a show. So it was the
beginning of my podcasting journey. As they say, the thing
that particularly blows my mind about it is that my
(27:06):
son was two and a half and my daughter would
have in five and now of course they are Billy
is almost thirteen and Matilda is fifteen, and my parenting
concerns are so different. But god, I loved making that
show with Andrew. He was the most wonderful, generous co host,
(27:27):
and he balanced me from that. He was very much
kind of don't worry about it. But he also gave
me parenting advice that I still think about now, which
is mostly just about showing up and being there for
them and listening. I always remember him saying, when they
get older, you can't just suddenly pop up and be like, look,
I haven't even been paying attention to you for however long,
(27:49):
but just tell me all your problems right now.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
They don't do that.
Speaker 8 (27:51):
Parenting is a long game. You've got to just keep
chipping away and being around. And look, this glorious mess
was one of the most wonderful things I've done in
my career, and I loved it, and I hope that
all of you have loved it too.
Speaker 7 (28:06):
It's hard to put this glorious mess into perspective. First
and foremost, it was fun and working with Holly for
oh my god, I don't know seven years was incredible.
Like she's I think, as everyone knows, is an incredible
human being, but so honest and upfront and doesn't suffer fools,
(28:29):
and she you know, Andrew No. And most importantly it
was a chance to talk about kids and having kids
and just the daily grind of I shouldn't say daily
because it's not a grind, well sometimes it's a grind
of parenting. And the fact that it was you know,
(28:50):
it was difficult and funny and stupid. So I was
just really lucky to be part of it. I don't
even know how I got to be part of it.
Maybe was the writing of kids books. I really don't know,
but I know it's got a really special place in
my heart from a work perspective, and then even to
it through COVID, so we'd you know, I get to
(29:12):
go to the city during COVID and the tourists would
sit down and record and it was just great. So
it was a truly fun experience. And the best part
was that we'd be in there crapping on and making
each other laugh, and you know, sometimes things would get
difficult toward you know, weary Uteri or whatever it was.
And then sometimes I'd meet people and they'd go, oh,
(29:34):
we've heard you on this glorious mess and whatever you
said was so like wow. So the whole thing just
what a great experience, so thanks for listening, you know,
but I was part of it, and I know it
was always a good time and it was just very
lucky to be, you know, part of that whole mom
and me is stable, so it's good not under everyone involved,
(29:55):
literally every single person involved, because it was literally everyone's show.
Good on you. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 9 (30:03):
Hi, it's this glorious mess for me was that real
beacon of imperfect parenting. It was launched around the time
that I had my first baby in twenty fifteen, and
I remember listening to Holly and Andrew and just it
felt like I was being seen and felt like I
(30:26):
was not completely crazy, you know, waiting into parenting for
the first time, and it was joyful and it allowed
you to not take yourself as seriously as what it
feels like when you're in those deep trenches of early parenthood.
I was so grateful for Holly and for Andrew all
(30:49):
the way back then, and for me then to spend
some time as co host of this glorious mess was
such a privilege and such a joy to be part
of it. So thank you, this glorious mess. You saved
me in those early days, and I'm very grateful to
have been part of the story.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
Hello, it's Lee Campbell here.
Speaker 5 (31:13):
I absolutely adored my time on this glorious mess. Me
came to me with the idea when my son was
a newborn, and so I think three or four months, Yeah,
he was three or four months old. I came on
and I had to find a co host. I had
a good acquaintance at the time. I knew her, though
not well. Her name was Tiganatolly, and she had three
(31:35):
little kids, and we'd got quite close because we were
both doing IVF and I said, I know someone with
three kids. I don't know her well, but we could
ask her and the rest was history. We hosted TGM
for about four years together, became good friends, best friends,
business partners, and now we're inseparable. She's like, I call
her my life wife. She's the other mother to Alexander,
(31:57):
and it just gave me the greatest gift. And I
just loved having an audience and an outlet to talk
about the highs and lows and the glorious mess that
is parenting. So it was a very special time in
my life and I absolutely loved the show.
Speaker 10 (32:10):
Hello with Sarah Marie Here.
Speaker 4 (32:12):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 10 (32:13):
I've absolutely loved being part of this show, especially getting
to answer all those parenting questions you sent in and
just sharing in your everyday chaos and joy.
Speaker 4 (32:22):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 10 (32:24):
I've treasured the honesty and listening to all the world
wonderful and very real things that come with parenting. I
will absolutely miss it. Farewell, this glorious mess.
Speaker 4 (32:34):
It's been an honor.
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
this glorious mess. We are embracing the chaos together, ditching
the judgment.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
I'm Tiagin Atolly.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
I'm a business owner of two business scissors and a
mother of three children's.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
And I'm analyst Todd.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I am a lifestyle producer here at Mamma Mia. I'm
also a single mother of a teenager and tween aged sons.
And today we are thrilled to welcome to the show.
Leading Australian psychologist, speaker and writer Claire wrote to talk
about navigating the complex world of our girls. Claire's career
as a child an adolescent mental health clinician has seen
(01:01):
her work with hundreds of families. Claire's the founder of
Rowan Associates Child and Family Psychology and one of us
straighti's most sought after voices child development. So today we
can't wait to ask Claire how we can navigate everything
from playground politics to teenage friendship dramas and how we
can guide our girls through the vast array and such
(01:23):
a vast array of social challenges for years to come. Yes,
Claire will share her insights on how we can foster resilience,
emotional intelligence, and healthy relationships with our daughters, and how
we can encourage them to have positive female friendships at
all ages.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
But first, oh stop.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Here is what's happening in my final group chat. Oh god,
so so analyse. This might be lighting up your group
chat too. Yep, but today is our final episode of
this gloriousness. Now we're both I know, now we're getting emotional. Yes,
(02:05):
this is our final episode. We will be wrapping up.
I personally have been hosting TGM with quite a few
different hosts over the years since Banjo was six months old.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
He is now six and.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
A half, so that's a long time.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
It's a really long time. It's making me feel old.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
A lot of group chats, so many lot of nails
and fails.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
But yeah, it's it's wrapping up. It's the end of
the this Glorious Mess era. We have seen so many
beautiful hosts. We've divided into big kids and little kids.
We've come back to to you know, all the kids
and all the ages, and we've had so many wonderful
listeners contribute over the years with you know, their dilemmas
(02:49):
or their tips and tricks. You know, it's just been
an amazing community. And I feel like, you know, I've
had a mum's group, you know, like I've had a
community of people even on my personal Instagram who are
you know, are listeners of the show. And we've basically
raised our children together and navigated that.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Most of the time not knowing what the hell we're doing.
So we will.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Continue to parent and not know what the hell we're doing.
And Mama May I have got a brand new family
brand coming. So watch this space and keep an eye
on this feed for something very special starting in June,
and later on in the show, we're going to be
hearing from some of the hosts or actually well the
former hosts of This Glorious Mess, from Holly Wainwright.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
To Daddoh to Lee Libby Been a few.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
And then me of course, Oh the last you are.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
You're going out with a bang. You're the voice.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Try and understand it. That's coming up later in the show.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Today, we're joined by psychologists Claire Row to unpack the
complex world of female friendships and how we can help
our daughters build healthy, supportive relationships from an early age.
Welcome to this glorious mess, Claire.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
Thanks guys, nice to be here.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
This is a minefield. Excited to unpack this. I've got
seven year old twin girls, So like, I feel like
this is I'm just you know, this is all.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Friend Yes, this is all starting.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Can you tell us why are friendships between girls so
emotionally intense and sometimes so explosive compared to boys?
Speaker 4 (04:27):
Oh, my gosh, intense is the right words?
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Are puppy dogs?
Speaker 5 (04:31):
So you.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
And my daughter's eight, so I'm right with you. It's
just about off.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (04:38):
So, like we know that girls develop social emotional skills
and verbal skills right earlier than boys, and I think
they're friendships even as adults.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
It's so different.
Speaker 6 (04:50):
Our friendships are based on so much of a deep
emotional connection.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
Right.
Speaker 6 (04:54):
So, my eight year old for a couple of years
has been taking like a secret diary to school and
her or her friends right their secrets in and they
tell each other feeling.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
It's not the.
Speaker 6 (05:05):
I've had a quick look at it, but you know
it's based on kind of secret telling and she sharing
feelings and personal stories, and you know that that friendship
as we have with adults. With our female friends is
really powerful and beautiful, but there's a lot at stake
when it goes wrong, whereas boys have their friendships kind
of more on what they can do together, right if
(05:26):
you like soccer, were a soccer kid, and so you
know when you Yeah, there's a lot at stake for
a girl if you lose a friendship, whereas as.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
You might be able to find someone else who can
kick a ball.
Speaker 6 (05:38):
But yeah, I just think that our friendships are so
based on that deeper emotional connection and that there is
an intensity to it. Everyone knows girls use what psychologists
call is relational aggression, you know, as opposed to physical
So that's the silent treatment and the gossiping and the
starting a group without someone, elusion, all that stuff, that
(06:01):
mean god stuff. It's not really mean girls. It's not
girls being mean. It's it's just it's how we operate.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
It really is.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
And we're talking about me girls the Burn Book. Obviously
we all know the movie. How do we distinguish between
just normal sort of girl drama and real bullying, mean
girl stuff.
Speaker 6 (06:20):
Oh, it's such an important question because I've been talking
about this for over ten years about not labeling every
friendship fallout as bullying. And you know the amount of
bullying campaigns we have now in school, by the way,
bullying rates seem to not be you know, getting any
better because of that. But it's kind of weaponized that
(06:40):
word of bullying. And so if you have a friendship
fallout for girls, it's like she's bullying me and it
could just be a clash of personalities. You know, we
need to teach our girls that this is part of life,
like it happens, and some friendships recover from that, some don't.
That's okay, it's not bullying. It's a bullying by definition,
(07:00):
is like that targeted towards one person. There's usually some
type of power imbalance, but it's really targeted and relentless
over a period of time, you know, having some drama
because you know, my friend didn't lend me her smiggle
rubber today and she lent it to everyone else.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
Yeah, that's not bullying.
Speaker 6 (07:19):
I mean, it might not be very nice behavior, but
we need to make sure we're not using that word
bullying inappropriately.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
And how can parents support their daughters through friendship issues
without stepping in too soon or making it worse?
Speaker 6 (07:33):
Yeah, I think that's the biggest thing. I think we
just going to fix it mode way too early. And
I personally don't think that female friendship difficulties can be
avoided in certainly in teenage years adult years, you might
get out of it better than others, but I don't
think it can be avoided, and it shouldn't be. I
think it's a normal developmental process where you know, it's
(07:56):
a training ground for learning, taking perspective on things and
boundary setting and problem solving. So we've got to let
kids go through it. And it's hard because it's really
awful when you're sitting with your daughter and she's just
in pain out to you. But one of the things
I like to do is if your daughter's come home
and she's, you know, telling you how awful her day
(08:18):
was and everything's going wrong, is to sit with it
for a while with her and you can you know,
we all know about validating kids emotions and saying that
that sounds really tough. But then the question I like
to ask is, Okay, what do you want to do
about it?
Speaker 4 (08:34):
First? You know, what, what what would.
Speaker 6 (08:36):
You like to try tomorrow and see what they come
up with first.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
That's really interesting.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Yeah, because you think that sometimes if your kids having
a hard time, you're you're so quick to just step
in and you know, like, yeah, fix, fix, and here's
what I think you should do or here's what you
hate when men do that totally, like we hate.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
That explaining yes exactly.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Sometimes I say to my husband, I'm like, you need
to just ask me, do I want a solution already?
Speaker 1 (09:03):
You know, just to listen or to fix it?
Speaker 2 (09:05):
And maybe that's what we need to start considering with
our kids, you know, well our girls, so like, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Shall I just listen?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Or But turning it around and making them think of
the solution is just such a wonderful idea.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
It's resilience absolutely we all need.
Speaker 6 (09:21):
And then you can guide them from that. They got
up with the most ridiculous, awful I'm going to show there,
but you know, starting off at that point, what would
you like to do about that?
Speaker 4 (09:34):
And what do you think you could do differently tomorrow?
Speaker 6 (09:36):
And how how do you think that they're feeling at
the moment, To try and get different perspectives and go
from that point first, Yeah, that's really really helpful.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
So the big mind field, the big one that all
the parents are fearing. We're all scared because we didn't
grow up with it. Is social media? What and how
and why? Just what can we do? Where do we start?
Speaker 6 (09:59):
Yeah, well, social media band as we know is coming
in we think into this country at the end of
this year. Yes, for sixteen and a sixteen year old,
it's under sixteen now. I've been very catastrophic about screens
and social media for the last ten years with kids.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
I don't think.
Speaker 6 (10:18):
Any child under the age of sixteen should have a smartphone.
I don't think any kid under high school should have
a phone. Quite frankly, I think kids in high school
shouldn't have You don't need phones, but I appreciate that
they're probably going to have phones. I don't think any
kids should have the Internet in their pocket at all times.
When it comes to relationships, we all know it's the
(10:40):
obvious thing, which is.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
There's just no break.
Speaker 6 (10:43):
You know, there's absolutely no break to the exclusion on
the number of likes or the chat that you're not
involved in, or who viewed your story, or being left
unread or you know, it's just relentless. And in fact,
I would argue that when they come home, the intensity
picks up because at least you would assume that when
they're in their maths and science and English lessons, they're
(11:05):
not looking at their phone, whereas a lot of kids
come home and that's it.
Speaker 4 (11:09):
That's their complete world.
Speaker 6 (11:11):
Is staring into that box of external validation and a
continuation of these friendship dramas. And it is intense for
females and every single little I call them microdramas. You know,
their days are filled with microdramas.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
And feel like, as a grown woman.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Yes, my days also for micro dramas.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah, same, is that just a woman thing?
Speaker 2 (11:37):
I don't know if the genie is already out of
the bottle, because I will be on I mean, I
don't have daughters. I've got sons, and my thirteen year
old has a mobile and I'm sure a lot of
people listening are like, Okay, so we've already the genie's done.
The horse has bolted. If they're using it, what sort
of things can we put in place? How do we
parent in this new world?
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (11:58):
And I want to be very careful not to blame parents,
because I one hundred percent think it's harder today than
a generation or two ago.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
I'm doing it myself. I see parents every day.
Speaker 6 (12:09):
I know it's harder, but I do think that you
need to make conscious choices of how your household is
going to run between the hours of four pm and
ten pm, and that has to be carved out free
time off devices. You have to be able to give
their brain a force break. They're not going to like it,
(12:30):
but it has to be a force break off that phone.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
And I think even you know, our guests the other week,
Gen mu Or, she mentioned about having a family reset.
So even if you do have the phones and they
are on devices, like I think that once they're out
and that's the way it is, it doesn't mean that,
you know, it can't be shaped and monitored in different ways,
you know, as you go on.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (12:52):
So you know, she mentioned having a device reset, so
you know, like, hey, here's some new rules and boundaries
around devices. And I think that's really handy. And I
know my kids have iPads, they don't have phones. They're
really young, but like even with the iPads, I have
to like when the school term starts or you've had
two weeks of school holidays, you know, they get a
(13:12):
bit more onto it and you're like, Okay, we need
a bit of a reset here because this is getting
a bit crazy. Yeah, and I think that's a really
positive way that for those parents that might be worried.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Oh no, I've already done it.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yeah, I found as well. It's not even so much
about the time. It's the conversations that you have around
the phone use you like, you know.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
We've got rules.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
It's like, if you see X y Z, what are
you going to do? Okay, well, this is the phone rule.
And if you see this online, if someone if you
see bullying in a group chat, this is the rule.
Speaker 6 (13:41):
Yeah, give it that tools before they before they see it.
And I think it's a lot easier. Well, it should
be a lot easier for people coming into giving children
these devices and access to social media. I work with
families and I give them a whole contract. Okay, so
there's a whole contract. The child signs that, the parents
signs it, and you start from that point.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (14:01):
But I also don't think that we can throw our
hands up if I've got a fourteen or fifteen year
old and say oh it's just too late. Now we
have to say it's going to be harder. Maybe, but
I have to do it for the sake of their
well being and development and mental health. You know, I
have I have to be able to do it. I mean,
when children first get onto social media, I think they
have to jump through certain hoops to be able to
(14:21):
be proved to parents they're trustworthy. That that may include
I have to be following you on there. Okay, I'll
make some account, secret account, your friends won't see me,
but I need to be following you. I need to
be able to check your phone. I need to be
able to not have a pass code on the phone.
There are certain hoops that I make no apologies for the.
Speaker 4 (14:45):
Children jump through.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Not sleeping with phones.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
In rooms so important, so important?
Speaker 1 (14:52):
What about this is a this is a curve ball.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
So what if you are looking at your daughter and
you're like, I think my daughter's Regina George, I think
she's a mean girl.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Like what can you do?
Speaker 2 (15:05):
What sort of things can you Conversations like how do
we work with that? If you you're seeing that your
daughter is actually probably not the angel that you.
Speaker 6 (15:15):
I often think that that's almost harder than having the
child that's kind of victimized and to be able to
come to that reality I think you really need to
keep an open mind. I'm not talking about vilifying children
and immediately saying well.
Speaker 4 (15:30):
What did you do wrong?
Speaker 6 (15:32):
Sure, but parents do need to keep an open conversation
with their children about their role in friendship dynamics. You know,
it's not about continually trying to apologize to people being
mean to you, but having that open conversation about what
could you do tomorrow? And then if you do suspect
Hang on a second. This has been grade one, grade two,
(15:53):
grade three. My child may be the common denominator here.
I think trying to have friends over where you can
see it in situ and trying to kind of watch
that interaction play out, and then you can kind of
do some coaching with them at the time and kind
of bring them over afterwards and say, see what happened there.
You can use things like books and movies to try
(16:14):
and you know, ask children about how people feel in
different scenarios. But ultimately we need to try and figure
out the why behind the behavior.
Speaker 4 (16:25):
What that need is.
Speaker 6 (16:27):
Is it a need to be popular with a certain group,
Is it a need to kind of throw their weight around?
And why do you feel like that that you need
to do that, So it's they're hard conversations to have,
and I suppose in a primary school level that probably
would warrant some type of communication with teachers who are
(16:48):
with them every day to try and get help guide
them and get information from them as well.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
So I was leading with curiosity like that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Coming up after this shortbreak, more wisdom from Claire on
navigating female friendships in our teens and young girls.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
That's next.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
So many parents worry about raising confident girls. I know
obviously having two girls, that's one thing I think about
quite a lot, especially with all the social media out there.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
What are some strategies that you'd.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Recommend helping girls develop a healthy self esteem that isn't
dependent on that external validation.
Speaker 6 (17:29):
Well, I think the antidote to external validation obviously is
internal self worth. So we need to raise our children,
but particularly our girls, to know that their value comes
from who they are and not their image. You know,
their character and not the number of likes that they're
getting online.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
And I think that that starts early.
Speaker 6 (17:48):
We know that it's about praising effort over outcome and
things like that.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
I think the other thing.
Speaker 6 (17:56):
Which is true for all kids, but particularly for females,
I actually think they need to have some type of
mastery or competence at something. I think I see a
lot of teenage girls who are a little bit adrift,
and they're only competent is probably posting online.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
You know, whether that's sports or coding, or dance or
a part time. And it doesn't have to be more
than one thing.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
And I feel like with girls as well, like you
don't have to be the best at it, but just
find something that gives you a little purpose or a
bit of direction, or something that your sibling might not
be into.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
It's you know exactly, it's your thing.
Speaker 6 (18:35):
Yeah, Because I think that I say that confidence doesn't
come from compliments, it comes from competency. Okay, Okay like that, yeah,
And so having a mastery over a skill one skill
is I think really important. The other thing I try
to keep in mind myself as a mother is just
watching your own relationship with your own body and your
(18:56):
own appearance, and how you deal with these issues and
your own friendships, what you're modeling to your child. Now,
my eight year old daughter sees me in the morning's
preating because I like that, and she sees me doing
my hair and putting makeup on.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
She likes that kind of thing. That's fine.
Speaker 6 (19:15):
I think the difference is she then doesn't see me
taking ten photos to get the right angle to post it.
Speaker 4 (19:21):
So I'm just doing it for myself.
Speaker 6 (19:23):
Yeah, she doesn't see me checking to see, oh that
was a good photo, let's put that up.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
And yeah, you know, I've never thought about that.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
I probably do that, but I've got sons, but I
actually need to be at.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Least you've got the boys.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
I'd be like mom, when you stop talking selfish, because
obviously we always hear about you know, we don't talk
badly about our bodies. But actually that's that phone, social
media relationship and the modeling.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
That's the first time I've heard that. That's a bigger huh.
Speaker 6 (19:52):
I think I definitely have improvement with the technology. My
kids see me on my phone a lot. I do
a lot of media work, and they you know, that's
my excuse in my head, it's work, it's work, But
that's that's irrelevant. They see me on my phone too much,
so that's a big one. And then modeling your own
female friendships in terms of healthy falling out, that's okay, Yeah,
(20:16):
just say you know, we've had a bit of an
argument and then we're you know, we've either rectified that
or not and apologize.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
I apologize, ow, yeah, sorry.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
It's so important when I think about my life. My
most important relationships outside my family are my girlfriends, of course.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Yeah, And it's so important.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
That they have these tools of how to identify good
people who have their back, who are going to be
there through thick and thin, because they are the ones
that get us through life. And I think as well,
especially making the point that you don't just have to
have one BFF.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Like I feel like girls, especially.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Around my girl's age, they get quite clicky and they
like their one best friend. And I'm like, yeah, but
you know that you can have all the friends, like
you can have more than one friend.
Speaker 6 (20:58):
It's definitely another difference between the females and the boys.
Female seems to expect this exclusiveness and it's real loyalty
from friends, which over time is really hard to sustain.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
As friendships change into.
Speaker 6 (21:13):
Tween years and teenage years, it's really difficult to sustain.
And we know that boys, generally speaking, they don't even
use the word best friend. You don't hear of primary
school boys saying my best Yeah, definitely not teenage.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Boys I play soccer with or.
Speaker 6 (21:29):
The you know, it's about what they do together, the
activity true, whereas females really like to categorize their friends
and it's like that's my bestie and they expect undivided
loyalty from them, that's it, and not loyalty like we
would talk about it about having your back. They are
talking about loyalty like you will not sit with someone else.
(21:50):
That's not, again, a mean girl thing. If that's how
your child is talking. It's actually really developmentally a normal
process for girls to go through. But having those conversations
about you know, her sitting with someone else that lunchtime
doesn't mean that there's.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
Less friendship for you.
Speaker 6 (22:06):
It's not a bucket where we have a finite amount,
we can only give it to certain people.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
But that's definitely a difference between the boys and girls.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
So for people who are raising girls women the next generation,
what's your number one sort of takeaway and advice for
raising the next generation of brilliant women?
Speaker 4 (22:25):
Oh my goodness, that's a big question.
Speaker 6 (22:30):
Pressure look of all of these things, I would probably
come back to what I say, which is, don't rush
into fix things. We don't have to rush up to
the school. We don't have to rescue our kids from everything.
I think the biggest thing for me working with kids
and families in mental health in general is we need
(22:50):
to teach young people to sit with discomfort, to be
able to say that not just are all negative feelings valid,
but they're also manageable.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Allow them to learn to navigate the situation.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
And that's really hard. As a parent, you do just
want to come in and fix.
Speaker 6 (23:09):
And say this is an awful time for you and
I know how that feels myself, and I want this
to go away. But then they're not learning life skills.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
They're going to.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Need that when they do leave the nest. They really
do need them.
Speaker 6 (23:21):
Yeah, that's right, So don't rush in to fix. Teach
kids that discomfort and pain are a part of life
and are manageable, that they will get through it.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
And then you can reflect back on.
Speaker 6 (23:32):
That and s see you did, and now we just
need to prepare ourselves for the next time.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Well, Claire, thank you so much for your time today.
We've loved chatting to you about all things girls and
kids and parenting and female friendships. Yes, friendships, loved it.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
Thank you guys, thank you.
Speaker 7 (23:54):
Well.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
That brings us to the end, Oh my god, very
end of this glorious Oh.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
No, don't seem to us.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
We're going to round out the show hearing from the
former home of this glorious mess, to wrap up what
has been a brilliant mess. But tegus, I wanted to
say on behalf of Mumma Mia, thank you so much
for sharing your life of five years, your parenting, your mess,
your humor. Everybody has gotten so much of everything that
(24:28):
you bring each week. And I have loved every second
of being on this show with you the last year.
Oh so many laughs, and we've learned so much. I
feel like we are a little bit better parents from
all the experts.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
We're certainly trying to be a work in progress, but.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
So many laughs, so much fun. So thank you, so
much fun. And thank you for being a beautiful co host.
I've had the pleasure of having so many wonderful co
hosts over the years. And you know, we're ending with
a bang. I think, you know, even looking at Andrew
and Holly's kids and they're not kids anymore. They and
this started god, so so many years ago, so It's
(25:07):
been a privilege to be a part of the show
and hopefully you'll still see my face pop up every
now and then all hear my voice somewhere, absolutely, and
it has been a privilege to share this final part
of the journey with you, my beautiful friend and Elise
same to tease, and you know what, you're not getting
rid of me. We are friends, I Ara.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
God, I have to talk to you from things other
than we ever.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
And also you know, Tina and I aren't going anywhere
from Mamma Mia will still be popping up in your
feed insufferably yes on.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Muma Mere's Instagram.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
I write for Mamma Mia and you know occasionally our
voices will pop into your ears and bless you months
more unfortunately for your thank you so much for tuning
in over the years.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
We will miss you, and I hope you miss us too.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
And we hope that you enjoyed this episode and finishing
on female friendships, which I actually really love because they
are the most important things in our lives. That's right,
So we hope that our girls and daughters get it right.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
This one's for the mums and the mums groups.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Thank you for listening to the five This Glorious Mess,
but the very last time. We hope you enjoyed this episode.
Thank you for being a part of the Mess. This
episode was produced by Teena met Love, with audio production
by Jacob Brown.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Farewell, Oh won't see you next week.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Chau forinow chow for now.
Speaker 8 (26:27):
This Glorious messs I was. I'm Holly Wainwright and I
was the original host of This Glorious Mess with my friend.
He wasn't my friend then, but my friend Andrew Daddo,
and we started that show in twenty fifteen, ten years ago.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Oh my god.
Speaker 8 (26:43):
It was one of the very first podcasts that Muma
Mia made. And I remember so clearly going in recording
the pilot with Andrew, who I'd never met before, at
a studio in Sydney, and I was so nervous because
I'd never been on a show. So it was the
beginning of my podcasting journey. As they say, the thing
that particularly blows my mind about it is that my
(27:06):
son was two and a half and my daughter would
have in five and now of course they are Billy
is almost thirteen and Matilda is fifteen, and my parenting
concerns are so different. But god, I loved making that
show with Andrew. He was the most wonderful, generous co host,
(27:27):
and he balanced me from that. He was very much
kind of don't worry about it. But he also gave
me parenting advice that I still think about now, which
is mostly just about showing up and being there for
them and listening. I always remember him saying, when they
get older, you can't just suddenly pop up and be like, look,
I haven't even been paying attention to you for however long,
(27:49):
but just tell me all your problems right now.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
They don't do that.
Speaker 8 (27:51):
Parenting is a long game. You've got to just keep
chipping away and being around. And look, this glorious mess
was one of the most wonderful things I've done in
my career, and I loved it, and I hope that
all of you have loved it too.
Speaker 7 (28:06):
It's hard to put this glorious mess into perspective. First
and foremost, it was fun and working with Holly for
oh my god, I don't know seven years was incredible.
Like she's I think, as everyone knows, is an incredible
human being, but so honest and upfront and doesn't suffer fools,
(28:29):
and she you know, Andrew No. And most importantly it
was a chance to talk about kids and having kids
and just the daily grind of I shouldn't say daily
because it's not a grind, well sometimes it's a grind
of parenting. And the fact that it was you know,
(28:50):
it was difficult and funny and stupid. So I was
just really lucky to be part of it. I don't
even know how I got to be part of it.
Maybe was the writing of kids books. I really don't know,
but I know it's got a really special place in
my heart from a work perspective, and then even to
it through COVID, so we'd you know, I get to
(29:12):
go to the city during COVID and the tourists would
sit down and record and it was just great. So
it was a truly fun experience. And the best part
was that we'd be in there crapping on and making
each other laugh, and you know, sometimes things would get
difficult toward you know, weary Uteri or whatever it was.
And then sometimes I'd meet people and they'd go, oh,
(29:34):
we've heard you on this glorious mess and whatever you
said was so like wow. So the whole thing just
what a great experience, so thanks for listening, you know,
but I was part of it, and I know it
was always a good time and it was just very
lucky to be, you know, part of that whole mom
and me is stable, so it's good not under everyone involved,
(29:55):
literally every single person involved, because it was literally everyone's show.
Good on you. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 9 (30:03):
Hi, it's this glorious mess for me was that real
beacon of imperfect parenting. It was launched around the time
that I had my first baby in twenty fifteen, and
I remember listening to Holly and Andrew and just it
felt like I was being seen and felt like I
(30:26):
was not completely crazy, you know, waiting into parenting for
the first time, and it was joyful and it allowed
you to not take yourself as seriously as what it
feels like when you're in those deep trenches of early parenthood.
I was so grateful for Holly and for Andrew all
(30:49):
the way back then, and for me then to spend
some time as co host of this glorious mess was
such a privilege and such a joy to be part
of it. So thank you, this glorious mess. You saved
me in those early days, and I'm very grateful to
have been part of the story.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
Hello, it's Lee Campbell here.
Speaker 5 (31:13):
I absolutely adored my time on this glorious mess. Me
came to me with the idea when my son was
a newborn, and so I think three or four months, Yeah,
he was three or four months old. I came on
and I had to find a co host. I had
a good acquaintance at the time. I knew her, though
not well. Her name was Tiganatolly, and she had three
(31:35):
little kids, and we'd got quite close because we were
both doing IVF and I said, I know someone with
three kids. I don't know her well, but we could
ask her and the rest was history. We hosted TGM
for about four years together, became good friends, best friends,
business partners, and now we're inseparable. She's like, I call
her my life wife. She's the other mother to Alexander,
(31:57):
and it just gave me the greatest gift. And I
just loved having an audience and an outlet to talk
about the highs and lows and the glorious mess that
is parenting. So it was a very special time in
my life and I absolutely loved the show.
Speaker 10 (32:10):
Hello with Sarah Marie Here.
Speaker 4 (32:12):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 10 (32:13):
I've absolutely loved being part of this show, especially getting
to answer all those parenting questions you sent in and
just sharing in your everyday chaos and joy.
Speaker 4 (32:22):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 10 (32:24):
I've treasured the honesty and listening to all the world
wonderful and very real things that come with parenting. I
will absolutely miss it. Farewell, this glorious mess.
Speaker 4 (32:34):
It's been an honor.
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