March 9, 2025 • 25 mins
In this intimate and candid conversation, bestselling author, entrepreneur and mother of seven Constance Hall shares her refreshingly resilient approach to parenting, online criticism, and finding security in human connections rather than material possessions.
With her trademark "Teflon" attitude towards judgment, Constance discusses her unique parenting philosophy that adapts to each child's needs, while offering powerful insights about breaking free from societal expectations and maintaining authentic joy through life's challenges.
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CREDITS:
Hosts: Tegan Natoli, Annaliese Todd
Guest: Constance Hall
Producer: Thom Lion
Audio Production: Jacob Round
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a Mamma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Hello and welcome to this glorious mess.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
We are embracing the chaos together, ditching the judgment as always.
I'm taking it Tolly, mother of twin girls and big
single boy.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
And I'm Anallys Todd, a single mother to two twain
boys who could be described this is me not them,
as a fairly free range parent and self confessed accidental
hot mess. Oh we all, And today we're sitting down
with one of Australia's most authentic voices, Constance Hall, a
best selling author, entrepreneur and social media phenomenon who's built
(01:00):
a community of over one point eight million followers by
simply being real about the messy, beautiful.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Chaos of life.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Known for her raw honesty about everything from motherhood to relationships,
mental health to body image, and she also happens to
be my best friend of over thirty five years.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Oh I thought you were only twenty one, doll.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
I know it's looks can be deceiving.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
We'll be hearing from Constance about how you can adopt
her teflon coat of armor when it comes to judgment
from other parents. But first, here's what's happening in my
group chat. You're gonna love this one. On lease, I
thought of you straight away. I'm like, this is right
up her alley. I got sent this article and it
made me think of you straight away. So the title
(01:47):
of the article, yes, is eleven injured. Oh at hen
party during fight for karaoke microfile?
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Oh yes, relatable?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Were you there and were you one of the eleven?
Is my question?
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Seen her and understood?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
No, Well I knew it wasn't you because it actually
happened in Dublin.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Oh. Oh they're spiritual.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Yes, yes, they like their music.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Okay, all my favorite bands are more details gave this event.
So the hen party of a Dublin woman descended into chaos.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Oh gosh, she cops and the minutes after the party
became aware that there was only time for three bore
songs before the bar.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
Was due to close.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Oh, that's a very tense time in karaoke. If there's
eleven of you or more and only three songs, this
is a problem.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yes, and there's what one microphone? Oh dear, because the
moment it escalated. Yes was over one song. Okay, Kelly Clarkson,
since you've been gone.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
There were some broken hearts among some of those.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
In and possibly arms and legs and jaws from the
sounds of things. We will put the article in the
show notes you can have a better look.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
This is my favorite thing you've ever brought to this
glorious mess.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
I'm still sure you were an Ireland that night.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
I love karaoke, and I can actually feel the pain
because I would have liked to have sung that song.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
And if there was only that song left to do
and that one microphone.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
You'd be on the ground.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Everyone would be.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Constance Hall is a best selling author, entrepreneur, and mother
of seven.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
I know she puts you to shame.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Tel I probably got three. That's like not even half
of what she's got. She's created a movement and community
of women who call each other queens. I love that,
embracing self acceptance and authentic living and an Alisa. You've
got a chance to catch up with your little bestie,
did you. I'm so excited to hear you had an
(03:59):
intimate chat and I cut wait t hear it.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
So Constance Hall, or as I call you, just con
welcome to this glorious mess. So a bit of background
for those playing at home. We met in nineteen eighty nine, Yes,
we are that old, and it was love at first sight?
Was for me?
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Was it?
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Few?
Speaker 5 (04:18):
Well, so what happens because you don't have a memory and.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
You remember everything like an elephant, it's so incriminating.
Speaker 5 (04:25):
So we're five years old.
Speaker 4 (04:27):
It was the first day of primary school and missus Kerr,
our teacher put us next to each other, and from
that moment onwards we've just never been apart. I think
your dad was perving on my mum at pickup.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Yeah, your mum was and is still very hot.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
Yeah, so your dad wasn't too bad either. So it's
just been how many years? Is that eighty nine? That
all five we met in eighty nine?
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Yeah, so that's like, what are you making me do
maths on the spot. We're forty two this year?
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Forty two okay, so thirty seven years oh god, yeah,
and my memory is so full on that I'm like, hey,
do you remember that thirty one years ago?
Speaker 5 (05:10):
When?
Speaker 3 (05:14):
But you know, you've got like adult step kids, you've
got teenagers, you've got tween ages and a little one
I've got tweens. I'm about to actually have a teenager.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
It's so different.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
Teenage boys are so different to teenage girls as well.
They're just so much like less communication, you know, Like
I find that anyway, and I think you'll find that
with Freddy, just because of the nature of our kids.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Have you found like, as your kids are older and
they're teenagers and with you sharing your life and them
being in content, like, what do they think about it?
Speaker 4 (05:51):
So that's a good question because I think every child
is really different. And this is sort of like a
huge theme for me because did I tell you that
I was into for that Chow Parntal guidance?
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Yes you did. You did, and you didn't make the
cut and I'm sorry they didn't.
Speaker 5 (06:08):
Well, they were like me.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
They were like emailing me, calling me FaceTime, you know,
like we want to I can't remember her words, but
we want to like move you Usually wouldn't be approving
people to weigh down, but we really keen to get
you like sort of locked away.
Speaker 5 (06:22):
And I was like, okay, like I haven't.
Speaker 4 (06:23):
Really thought about reality TV, but you know, if any
reality TV shows are listening, I would probably do one again.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
I watch it and wouldn't you.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
But then so she interviewed us, and this is the
interesting part. Everyone for reality TV show when it comes
to parenting, wants to make you a caricature of the
parent that you are. So if you're free range, then
they want you to be the most free range, embarrassingly
free range parent. Or if you're strict, they want you
to be like a absolute militant. So it's like they
(06:53):
don't really have that room for the in between, whereas
me and Dens, you can't put us in a you
know thing, because I said to her, every single one
of our children is so different. So every single one
of our kids needs different screen times, needs different boundaries,
needs different everything, and we just sort of go with
the flow and everything changed, and we don't have any
set rules. And she was like, so your family doesn't
have any set rules, and I was like, I couldn't
(07:16):
think of one that applies to everyone.
Speaker 5 (07:18):
That's just a consistent rule, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (07:21):
Like, it was just I don't think that we could
give her what she wanted. But I also think that
she asked me at the end, she said, is there
anything unfamily friendly about you guys? Or your past that
might pop up, and I was like, I don't even
know you. I'm not going to sit here and tell
you the most like personal, like vulnerable moments of my life.
They're all public knowledge. Do your research like whatever. So
(07:44):
she obviously did a research and didn't call back.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
But well, that's their loss. Wasn't meant to be because
it was their lobody entertaining.
Speaker 5 (07:51):
I think we would have been great. And also like
they did all these like challenges with the kids. So
I watched a few episodes.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
You know me, I don't watch TV, and I watched
a few episodes to see if we would have been
good on it anyway, And they do all these challenges
with the children. And how well your children do is
you know how you get rated?
Speaker 5 (08:06):
Now?
Speaker 4 (08:07):
One thing that you cannot say about me. You can
call me a you can call me whatever you want
to call me. But I have good kids. And my
kids are so well versed because they've been in the
public eye for how long, not just in the public
eye though, like we haters do you.
Speaker 5 (08:21):
Know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (08:21):
And they've had to experience that, and so they have
the one rule that we do have is the family code,
Like we keep everything in house. Nobody you never you
never dog on your little sibling or anything. It's just
bring it back to me, do not tell anyone else.
It's a funny one. We live in a bubble in
a bubble, so we have everyone that really does know us.
(08:41):
We'll give my kids so much love so they get
this unbelievable like Aunties, you know, just going you are.
I've followed you since you were a baby, and you're incredible.
And Billy Butler, I was asking her recently about, you
know what her childhood in the public eye has any
effects that it's had, and she's like, Billy's such a
no bullshit kids. She's like, oh my god, I'm so
(09:04):
sick of these like new age kids that.
Speaker 5 (09:06):
All want trauma mum, because there is no way you
could look at it.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
With your blog and us being in the public eye,
could it have ever been.
Speaker 5 (09:14):
A negative thing? Like we just get lots of love
from a few people.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
Most people don't know who we are, and you know
there's and there's some like horrible haters out there, but
we wouldn't want to know them anyway.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Con you're a couple of steps ahead of me and
the parenting game and one of the things that you're
facing now teenagers. Billy Violet's fifteen, and I've always really
admired your honesty and transparency and the way you navigate
that tricky stuff like alcohol and sex. You shared a
post with some advice that you got from a therapist
(09:49):
years ago which really stood out to me. It said,
a house full of screaming kids and fighting teenagers and
a parent who's being thrown every question and request is
a healthy one. To me. It's the silent children, the
scared toddlers, the teenagers that don't come home, and the
parents who aren't in communication with their children that I
worry about. Can you speak to that idea where you
(10:13):
want your kids to run to you as they get older,
as opposed to run away.
Speaker 5 (10:18):
It's so true.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
And you know what, that same woman told me that
when she meets a child and that child is flipping
out and screaming and climbing the walls, she said, I'm
just like, You'll be fine.
Speaker 5 (10:30):
She said.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
It's the kid that's trying to disappear that you know,
that is that you barely see in the room because
they've become so good at disappearing. She said, they're the
ones that you need to worry about because their trauma
and their behavioral issues are all so far buried down,
whereas the roomies that are screaming and having the big tantrums,
theirs are on the surface. You can deal with them.
(10:54):
You're right, they're still coming to you. That's isn't that
just the most important thing?
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (10:59):
Yeah, you.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Since I've known you for have we discovered was thirty
seven years, you are the most resilient person I think
I've ever met my life. Like even like people just
probably know you know, obviously you've been heavily, heavily trolled online,
but some of the things that have happened in your
life that you've survived, that you've come through. One of
(11:23):
the most beautiful things is that you just you don't
care what other people don't think unless you care about
the people. It's obviously your friends and your family. You
care what we think. But if a stranger says something
to you like you literally are like teflon, like it
doesn't even like you just how like a lot of
people would be struggling they feel that parent shame. There's
(11:45):
so many like, oh, you've got to be a gentle parent.
You've got to be a lighthouse parent, you've got to
build emotional resilience coaching and all of the noise that
we sort of get bombarded with and people feel bad,
people get shaming comments and they don't have that teflon
Like what would your advice be of how to move
through it?
Speaker 4 (12:05):
Well, firstly, I think not caring what people think, but
care a lot about how people feel. How you've made
someone feel is the sort of key, you know what
I mean? Like, I really do care about how it
made people feel, and if I've made them feel excluded
or crap about themselves, I'll stay awake until three and
worried about that.
Speaker 5 (12:23):
Whereas what people think.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
The reason that I've had that I've learned to not
care is because this isn't about me, Like, it's just
not your.
Speaker 5 (12:33):
Reaction to me. You know, there's that book It's not you.
Speaker 4 (12:36):
Your mum's a narcissist and they teach you to put
on the lab coat and just like observe people's in
behave yea rather than engage with it. And I think
that to me, if I write a post and someone
comes at me about like a kid with a full
nappy or about like whatever it is, I honestly don't
think this is about me. If you were to say
that to me, I would think it was about me,
(12:58):
because you know me through and through. But I honestly,
I've really learnt that everybody's opinion of you is just
a reflection of something that's going on with them if
they don't know you at all and they're just throwing
out at you. But I also think it's got a
lot to do with really dropping the ego and having
to humble yourself. And when you have as many children
(13:21):
as I do, you really need to do that because
you literally going, can you hold my baby for a second,
because I need to do, you know, And so you
can't have that facade.
Speaker 5 (13:30):
Of I've got it all sorted out.
Speaker 4 (13:32):
And I think that's what the whole parenting classification thing
does is it gives us a place to belong and
to say to the rest of the world, I've got
it all sorted out. You might not understand me, but
I'm in this niche so you don't need to. And
it keeps us sort of protected in some way. So
when you break all that down and you realize how
(13:55):
much everyone else is struggling and everyone knows that you're struggling.
Speaker 5 (13:58):
And everyone's kind of really cheering you on.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
At the end of the day, they want to see
you do well, especially if you're open and vulnerable and
honest about the fact that you're not half the time,
then that's when you see the amount of people that
turn around and go.
Speaker 5 (14:11):
Like, I want you to do well.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
You're doing so well, you're you know, they're becoming your cheerleaders,
Whereas if you're facing the world with your front, people
naturally get defensive and they kind of do like bring
you down.
Speaker 5 (14:22):
So I get it.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
It's been a combination of caring less about opinions that
don't actually matter or mean anything, and finding a way
to communicate with other women that has broken down those
sort of judge barriers because I know that they're just
a symptom, a patriarchal symptom that's actually not who women are.
And yeah, so that's but I was also sort of
(14:45):
blessed with this, you know mentality. I remember when me
and you had a conversation someone was leaving her husband
and you said, she doesn't want to, she's just scared.
She wants to leave them, but she's worried about what
her family and everything, And I was like, and this
is her life, she's only living once, Like, who cares
what her family thinks? And you said to me, con
it's not like everyone doesn't think like you, Like you're
(15:05):
lucky that you wouldn't care what your family.
Speaker 5 (15:08):
Thought if you got divorced at to but like.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
She does and a lot of people would. And you
just need to accept that. And it was a bit
of an eye opener for me that, like, it's not
wrong or better or worse, it's just that everybody is different,
and being sensitive to what other people think of you
is actually it can be a beautiful thing as long
as it's not hurting you. And it's beautiful because you
care about what they think, you know, it just shows
(15:31):
that you have that humility.
Speaker 5 (15:33):
So it's an interesting one. I can't full circle all
the time. I don't have any real opinions.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
I like the distinction when you said you don't care
what other people think, but you care about how you
made them feel, Like that's I think that's important.
Speaker 4 (15:49):
And because I am that drain and that will send
a message and then not get a message back, and
then reread it four times and go oh, and then
another one. I hope you didn't think that I meant
by this, you know, I really do. But yeah, of course,
isn't that like, isn't that what life's about?
Speaker 3 (16:08):
So you have given so much beautiful advice. You've given
brilliant advice to me, Like you know, especially at the
end of my marriage, like I can't even I can't
even talk about it without tearing up. I couldn't have
got through it without you and the advice that you
have given to millions of women. But I wanted to
ask you what is the best piece of advice that
(16:29):
you've ever been given and who gave it to you?
I'm putting on this.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
You could have given me some time for this one, right.
You know my Auntie Lisa. Everyone knows my Auntie Lisa,
and you know Monte Lisa, but she always gives me
fantastic advice. And I think as women, especially during divorce
and during baby making years, during you know, when or
(16:54):
when you're thinking about divorcing, as women, we have this
fundamental fear of losing our security and that drives so
many of our decisions, and they're not always great decisions.
We make decisions to stay because we're scared or it
always comes down to where am I going to live
my basic needs? How am I going to meet my kids'
basic needs? Even women who I know whose husbands and
(17:19):
their network together is like ten million dollars, they will
still be saying to me, I can't leave him because
I'll be on the streets like this is just a
thing that women have.
Speaker 5 (17:30):
And it is.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
And it's also like just a fear of the unknown,
you know. I definitely remember thinking that, And now that
I have been divorced and separated for years, I'm like,
it's really actually not scary at all.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
You wish that you could go back and say to
your younger self, it's going to be okay, because you're
always okay. So I am constantly like, man, it's just me,
like you are always okay. It has been so many
times in your life where you've thought, no, this time,
I'm not going to be okay. But voila, you are.
But I remember Lisa said to me, she goes you. Women,
(18:04):
women need to stop thinking of money as our security,
because you know, for thousands of years it hasn't been,
and this is where the fear comes from. And we
need to remember she goes, your bank might go bankrupt tomorrow.
Your house might burn down while the insurance company goes bankrupt.
These things happen to people, and you will end up
(18:26):
with nothing. And I was like, that's great. She goes,
it could happen to anyone. There is nothing you can
do to make sure that you will always be secure,
because I was saying to her, I just want a
house mortgage free. I just want you know what I mean, Like,
I just want to got this. Then I'll stop. Then
I'll stop.
Speaker 5 (18:40):
She says me.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
The only security that you will ever have is me,
is analys is the people that you are like fully
connected with, because.
Speaker 5 (18:49):
You know that your mother, we will never let you
not be okay.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
And nothing could ever stop that, like nothing, no amount
of you know of global disasters could stop us from
doing that for you. And so I've always thought about
that because I just thought, what a beautiful way of
looking at life. You're the people that love and that
love you are your security. And it's really difficult when
(19:14):
you're marrying and you're divorcing and you're having babies, whatever
you're doing in this bizarre sort of twenty year gap
that we go through, it's really really hard to make
the right decision. If you're constantly focused on your own security,
it's like kind of keeps you in the potato picking
kind of rolled, you know what I mean, Like you
never get to dream bigger because you're always freaking out
(19:37):
that well, no, I have to play the game because
I've got to keep the roof over the head.
Speaker 5 (19:41):
So yeah, that's something that I am currently thinking about
a lot.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
One of the different perspectives I have now. When I
think back to, like during my marriage or you know,
getting engaged, it's almost this like tick box, like you've
got to get engaged, you've got to buy a house,
you've got to have a baby, you've got to get married,
and it's you kind of tick along, and you almost
you're so focused on ticking the boxes that you get
(20:06):
swept up in it. And then when the boxes and
everything c down, now I'm like, oh my god, none
of that stuff matters. You don't need to be married.
I'm very happily renting. You don't need a husband, like
none of us. So true actually matters. There is no timeline,
absolutely true.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
And recently I was listening to an old song, you know, the.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
Glory days songs like the early two Thousand's house music.
I mean, every time I put that on my Instagram,
every woman that's our age is just like, oh my god.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
The dangers.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
And when I listen to music that I love, it
ignites something in me, and it ignites some sort of dopamine.
And I feel this like I sit to DNS. The
only way I can describe it as magic, But it
kind of reminds me of life before kids and before
marriage and all this stuff, and it makes me wonder
if this sort of powerful dopamine can come to me
(21:00):
through music that makes me feel great, makes me feel
like I could do anything. Is our entire life structured
in a way that keeps that magic away from us
so that we don't so that we believe we have
to keep ticking those boxes, Because like, once you start
feeling great no matter what, you don't need the shiny
(21:23):
car and then anything. You could literally live in a
van and be happy and feel connected and feel everything
that you want. But we don't live a life that
actually encourages any of that stuff. So I just part
of me wonders how much of it's been done on purpose?
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Capitalism, Yeah, you're spending money on renovating and picking that's it.
Speaker 5 (21:45):
Yes, Yes, so I think we should all go to
a rave.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
I'm definitely coming to a ray with you. It's been
far too long.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
Far too long. Oh my god, do you know what
I mean?
Speaker 4 (21:56):
We need to be bringing back that playfulness of our
youth and doing things experiences that just make us feel great.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
Con you had something happen recently that could potentially scare
women our age. Certainly would scare the crap out of me.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
Yeah, I had a pregnancy ski recently and I know, right,
maybe like start taking the mini pill, which I've stopped
taking because that was just gross.
Speaker 5 (22:22):
No, it gave me weird periods, but anyway, that's a
different story.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
But yeah, it really made me think about babies, and
because I was like, billy, everyone, my kid's getting older
makes me feel old. And I'll be honest, I do
worry about getting old a lot.
Speaker 5 (22:36):
Not on a superficial facial level or you.
Speaker 4 (22:39):
Know, wrinkling neck level, but more just I love its
life and I don't want it to be over and
I don't want to be old. Like you make jokes
all the time about your pension and chair that you
took down to the beach, and I can't make those
jaks because I have to find out what the young
people are sitting on and sit on it because I
am like, I have a phobia of getting old. And
then I was like, no, I don't want another baby,
(23:00):
like I'm obviously spread to thin and I think, you
know when you're done when the idea of having another
baby would take more away from your children, and then
it would give them you know what I mean. Cause
a lot of people want to give their kids a sibling,
and I get that obviously I've done a million times.
Speaker 5 (23:15):
But now it's like they've got enough siblings. They just
need more mum, really need more mum time. So but yeah,
the only.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
Plus of having a baby that I thought of was
it just makes you feel like like if you think
about middle age, beginning of life, end of life, it
just felt like it was dragging me back to the
beginning of.
Speaker 5 (23:31):
Life a little bit more rather than pushing me. Do
you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (23:35):
No, with the amount of kids that you have, you're
gonna be a grandma soon, don't worry.
Speaker 5 (23:38):
I hope. So I really do well.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
Constance Hall, or as I call you, con thank you
so much for coming on this glorious mess.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
Thank you for having me. I'm so proud of you, Analse.
Everywhere I go, everyone says to me, you know, what's
Analist doing because everyone thinks of me and you was
stuck together, and I'm like, oh, you know, she's hosting
a podcast, working at mom and Mia like, you're living
the dream life. You're slaying it and you're slagh divorce,
which is and now you've like, honestly, you're in a
(24:12):
healthy relationship with the best mum. And I'm just so
frigging if I was your mum right now, I could
die happy. You've done such an amazing job.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (24:20):
I love you, and I love coming on your show.
Can you have me on again?
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (24:27):
I still can't get over that she's got seven children.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
I know, and I always tease you for having too many,
and you've got three.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Oh my gosh. Three, it's not oh my gosh. But
I really loved it. Was it was great perspective because
obviously her kids are quite older than mine, so it's
great to hear what's what's going on at that stage
of life. But I did love her advice in terms of,
you know, just letting that judgment slide right off because
you know I'm sensitive Sally over here, so yeah, and
(24:55):
she's some nice advice.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
She's probably the most resilient person I've ever met.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Yeah, unoffendable. I love that. I'm in awe.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
My husband's like that, unoffendable, and I have a couple
of friends and I'm like nothing bothers you like it
doesn't teflon?
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Well, thank you so so much for listening to this
glorious mess. We hope you enjoyed the episode, and we'd
love it if you left us a rating or review.
If you love the.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Show, please keep sharing with us on the mum and
mea family Facebook page and Muma mea family Instagram, or
you can leave us a message.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
All the details are in the show notes.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
This episode was produced by Tom Lyon, with audio production
by Jacob Brown. Bye, see you next time.
You're listening to a Mamma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Hello and welcome to this glorious mess.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
We are embracing the chaos together, ditching the judgment as always.
I'm taking it Tolly, mother of twin girls and big
single boy.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
And I'm Anallys Todd, a single mother to two twain
boys who could be described this is me not them,
as a fairly free range parent and self confessed accidental
hot mess. Oh we all, And today we're sitting down
with one of Australia's most authentic voices, Constance Hall, a
best selling author, entrepreneur and social media phenomenon who's built
(01:00):
a community of over one point eight million followers by
simply being real about the messy, beautiful.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Chaos of life.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Known for her raw honesty about everything from motherhood to relationships,
mental health to body image, and she also happens to
be my best friend of over thirty five years.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Oh I thought you were only twenty one, doll.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
I know it's looks can be deceiving.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
We'll be hearing from Constance about how you can adopt
her teflon coat of armor when it comes to judgment
from other parents. But first, here's what's happening in my
group chat. You're gonna love this one. On lease, I
thought of you straight away. I'm like, this is right
up her alley. I got sent this article and it
made me think of you straight away. So the title
(01:47):
of the article, yes, is eleven injured. Oh at hen
party during fight for karaoke microfile?
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Oh yes, relatable?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Were you there and were you one of the eleven?
Is my question?
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Seen her and understood?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
No, Well I knew it wasn't you because it actually
happened in Dublin.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Oh. Oh they're spiritual.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Yes, yes, they like their music.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Okay, all my favorite bands are more details gave this event.
So the hen party of a Dublin woman descended into chaos.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Oh gosh, she cops and the minutes after the party
became aware that there was only time for three bore
songs before the bar.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
Was due to close.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Oh, that's a very tense time in karaoke. If there's
eleven of you or more and only three songs, this
is a problem.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yes, and there's what one microphone? Oh dear, because the
moment it escalated. Yes was over one song. Okay, Kelly Clarkson,
since you've been gone.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
There were some broken hearts among some of those.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
In and possibly arms and legs and jaws from the
sounds of things. We will put the article in the
show notes you can have a better look.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
This is my favorite thing you've ever brought to this
glorious mess.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
I'm still sure you were an Ireland that night.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
I love karaoke, and I can actually feel the pain
because I would have liked to have sung that song.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
And if there was only that song left to do
and that one microphone.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
You'd be on the ground.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Everyone would be.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Constance Hall is a best selling author, entrepreneur, and mother
of seven.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
I know she puts you to shame.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Tel I probably got three. That's like not even half
of what she's got. She's created a movement and community
of women who call each other queens. I love that,
embracing self acceptance and authentic living and an Alisa. You've
got a chance to catch up with your little bestie,
did you. I'm so excited to hear you had an
(03:59):
intimate chat and I cut wait t hear it.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
So Constance Hall, or as I call you, just con
welcome to this glorious mess. So a bit of background
for those playing at home. We met in nineteen eighty nine, Yes,
we are that old, and it was love at first sight?
Was for me?
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Was it?
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Few?
Speaker 5 (04:18):
Well, so what happens because you don't have a memory and.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
You remember everything like an elephant, it's so incriminating.
Speaker 5 (04:25):
So we're five years old.
Speaker 4 (04:27):
It was the first day of primary school and missus Kerr,
our teacher put us next to each other, and from
that moment onwards we've just never been apart. I think
your dad was perving on my mum at pickup.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Yeah, your mum was and is still very hot.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
Yeah, so your dad wasn't too bad either. So it's
just been how many years? Is that eighty nine? That
all five we met in eighty nine?
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Yeah, so that's like, what are you making me do
maths on the spot. We're forty two this year?
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Forty two okay, so thirty seven years oh god, yeah,
and my memory is so full on that I'm like, hey,
do you remember that thirty one years ago?
Speaker 5 (05:10):
When?
Speaker 3 (05:14):
But you know, you've got like adult step kids, you've
got teenagers, you've got tween ages and a little one
I've got tweens. I'm about to actually have a teenager.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
It's so different.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
Teenage boys are so different to teenage girls as well.
They're just so much like less communication, you know, Like
I find that anyway, and I think you'll find that
with Freddy, just because of the nature of our kids.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Have you found like, as your kids are older and
they're teenagers and with you sharing your life and them
being in content, like, what do they think about it?
Speaker 4 (05:51):
So that's a good question because I think every child
is really different. And this is sort of like a
huge theme for me because did I tell you that
I was into for that Chow Parntal guidance?
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Yes you did. You did, and you didn't make the
cut and I'm sorry they didn't.
Speaker 5 (06:08):
Well, they were like me.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
They were like emailing me, calling me FaceTime, you know,
like we want to I can't remember her words, but
we want to like move you Usually wouldn't be approving
people to weigh down, but we really keen to get
you like sort of locked away.
Speaker 5 (06:22):
And I was like, okay, like I haven't.
Speaker 4 (06:23):
Really thought about reality TV, but you know, if any
reality TV shows are listening, I would probably do one again.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
I watch it and wouldn't you.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
But then so she interviewed us, and this is the
interesting part. Everyone for reality TV show when it comes
to parenting, wants to make you a caricature of the
parent that you are. So if you're free range, then
they want you to be the most free range, embarrassingly
free range parent. Or if you're strict, they want you
to be like a absolute militant. So it's like they
(06:53):
don't really have that room for the in between, whereas
me and Dens, you can't put us in a you
know thing, because I said to her, every single one
of our children is so different. So every single one
of our kids needs different screen times, needs different boundaries,
needs different everything, and we just sort of go with
the flow and everything changed, and we don't have any
set rules. And she was like, so your family doesn't
have any set rules, and I was like, I couldn't
(07:16):
think of one that applies to everyone.
Speaker 5 (07:18):
That's just a consistent rule, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (07:21):
Like, it was just I don't think that we could
give her what she wanted. But I also think that
she asked me at the end, she said, is there
anything unfamily friendly about you guys? Or your past that
might pop up, and I was like, I don't even
know you. I'm not going to sit here and tell
you the most like personal, like vulnerable moments of my life.
They're all public knowledge. Do your research like whatever. So
(07:44):
she obviously did a research and didn't call back.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
But well, that's their loss. Wasn't meant to be because
it was their lobody entertaining.
Speaker 5 (07:51):
I think we would have been great. And also like
they did all these like challenges with the kids. So
I watched a few episodes.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
You know me, I don't watch TV, and I watched
a few episodes to see if we would have been
good on it anyway, And they do all these challenges
with the children. And how well your children do is
you know how you get rated?
Speaker 5 (08:06):
Now?
Speaker 4 (08:07):
One thing that you cannot say about me. You can
call me a you can call me whatever you want
to call me. But I have good kids. And my
kids are so well versed because they've been in the
public eye for how long, not just in the public
eye though, like we haters do you.
Speaker 5 (08:21):
Know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (08:21):
And they've had to experience that, and so they have
the one rule that we do have is the family code,
Like we keep everything in house. Nobody you never you
never dog on your little sibling or anything. It's just
bring it back to me, do not tell anyone else.
It's a funny one. We live in a bubble in
a bubble, so we have everyone that really does know us.
(08:41):
We'll give my kids so much love so they get
this unbelievable like Aunties, you know, just going you are.
I've followed you since you were a baby, and you're incredible.
And Billy Butler, I was asking her recently about, you
know what her childhood in the public eye has any
effects that it's had, and she's like, Billy's such a
no bullshit kids. She's like, oh my god, I'm so
(09:04):
sick of these like new age kids that.
Speaker 5 (09:06):
All want trauma mum, because there is no way you
could look at it.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
With your blog and us being in the public eye,
could it have ever been.
Speaker 5 (09:14):
A negative thing? Like we just get lots of love
from a few people.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
Most people don't know who we are, and you know
there's and there's some like horrible haters out there, but
we wouldn't want to know them anyway.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Con you're a couple of steps ahead of me and
the parenting game and one of the things that you're
facing now teenagers. Billy Violet's fifteen, and I've always really
admired your honesty and transparency and the way you navigate
that tricky stuff like alcohol and sex. You shared a
post with some advice that you got from a therapist
(09:49):
years ago which really stood out to me. It said,
a house full of screaming kids and fighting teenagers and
a parent who's being thrown every question and request is
a healthy one. To me. It's the silent children, the
scared toddlers, the teenagers that don't come home, and the
parents who aren't in communication with their children that I
worry about. Can you speak to that idea where you
(10:13):
want your kids to run to you as they get older,
as opposed to run away.
Speaker 5 (10:18):
It's so true.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
And you know what, that same woman told me that
when she meets a child and that child is flipping
out and screaming and climbing the walls, she said, I'm
just like, You'll be fine.
Speaker 5 (10:30):
She said.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
It's the kid that's trying to disappear that you know,
that is that you barely see in the room because
they've become so good at disappearing. She said, they're the
ones that you need to worry about because their trauma
and their behavioral issues are all so far buried down,
whereas the roomies that are screaming and having the big tantrums,
theirs are on the surface. You can deal with them.
(10:54):
You're right, they're still coming to you. That's isn't that
just the most important thing?
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (10:59):
Yeah, you.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Since I've known you for have we discovered was thirty
seven years, you are the most resilient person I think
I've ever met my life. Like even like people just
probably know you know, obviously you've been heavily, heavily trolled online,
but some of the things that have happened in your
life that you've survived, that you've come through. One of
(11:23):
the most beautiful things is that you just you don't
care what other people don't think unless you care about
the people. It's obviously your friends and your family. You
care what we think. But if a stranger says something
to you like you literally are like teflon, like it
doesn't even like you just how like a lot of
people would be struggling they feel that parent shame. There's
(11:45):
so many like, oh, you've got to be a gentle parent.
You've got to be a lighthouse parent, you've got to
build emotional resilience coaching and all of the noise that
we sort of get bombarded with and people feel bad,
people get shaming comments and they don't have that teflon
Like what would your advice be of how to move
through it?
Speaker 4 (12:05):
Well, firstly, I think not caring what people think, but
care a lot about how people feel. How you've made
someone feel is the sort of key, you know what
I mean? Like, I really do care about how it
made people feel, and if I've made them feel excluded
or crap about themselves, I'll stay awake until three and
worried about that.
Speaker 5 (12:23):
Whereas what people think.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
The reason that I've had that I've learned to not
care is because this isn't about me, Like, it's just
not your.
Speaker 5 (12:33):
Reaction to me. You know, there's that book It's not you.
Speaker 4 (12:36):
Your mum's a narcissist and they teach you to put
on the lab coat and just like observe people's in
behave yea rather than engage with it. And I think
that to me, if I write a post and someone
comes at me about like a kid with a full
nappy or about like whatever it is, I honestly don't
think this is about me. If you were to say
that to me, I would think it was about me,
(12:58):
because you know me through and through. But I honestly,
I've really learnt that everybody's opinion of you is just
a reflection of something that's going on with them if
they don't know you at all and they're just throwing
out at you. But I also think it's got a
lot to do with really dropping the ego and having
to humble yourself. And when you have as many children
(13:21):
as I do, you really need to do that because
you literally going, can you hold my baby for a second,
because I need to do, you know, And so you
can't have that facade.
Speaker 5 (13:30):
Of I've got it all sorted out.
Speaker 4 (13:32):
And I think that's what the whole parenting classification thing
does is it gives us a place to belong and
to say to the rest of the world, I've got
it all sorted out. You might not understand me, but
I'm in this niche so you don't need to. And
it keeps us sort of protected in some way. So
when you break all that down and you realize how
(13:55):
much everyone else is struggling and everyone knows that you're struggling.
Speaker 5 (13:58):
And everyone's kind of really cheering you on.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
At the end of the day, they want to see
you do well, especially if you're open and vulnerable and
honest about the fact that you're not half the time,
then that's when you see the amount of people that
turn around and go.
Speaker 5 (14:11):
Like, I want you to do well.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
You're doing so well, you're you know, they're becoming your cheerleaders,
Whereas if you're facing the world with your front, people
naturally get defensive and they kind of do like bring
you down.
Speaker 5 (14:22):
So I get it.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
It's been a combination of caring less about opinions that
don't actually matter or mean anything, and finding a way
to communicate with other women that has broken down those
sort of judge barriers because I know that they're just
a symptom, a patriarchal symptom that's actually not who women are.
And yeah, so that's but I was also sort of
(14:45):
blessed with this, you know mentality. I remember when me
and you had a conversation someone was leaving her husband
and you said, she doesn't want to, she's just scared.
She wants to leave them, but she's worried about what
her family and everything, And I was like, and this
is her life, she's only living once, Like, who cares
what her family thinks? And you said to me, con
it's not like everyone doesn't think like you, Like you're
(15:05):
lucky that you wouldn't care what your family.
Speaker 5 (15:08):
Thought if you got divorced at to but like.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
She does and a lot of people would. And you
just need to accept that. And it was a bit
of an eye opener for me that, like, it's not
wrong or better or worse, it's just that everybody is different,
and being sensitive to what other people think of you
is actually it can be a beautiful thing as long
as it's not hurting you. And it's beautiful because you
care about what they think, you know, it just shows
(15:31):
that you have that humility.
Speaker 5 (15:33):
So it's an interesting one. I can't full circle all
the time. I don't have any real opinions.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
I like the distinction when you said you don't care
what other people think, but you care about how you
made them feel, Like that's I think that's important.
Speaker 4 (15:49):
And because I am that drain and that will send
a message and then not get a message back, and
then reread it four times and go oh, and then
another one. I hope you didn't think that I meant
by this, you know, I really do. But yeah, of course,
isn't that like, isn't that what life's about?
Speaker 3 (16:08):
So you have given so much beautiful advice. You've given
brilliant advice to me, Like you know, especially at the
end of my marriage, like I can't even I can't
even talk about it without tearing up. I couldn't have
got through it without you and the advice that you
have given to millions of women. But I wanted to
ask you what is the best piece of advice that
(16:29):
you've ever been given and who gave it to you?
I'm putting on this.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
You could have given me some time for this one, right.
You know my Auntie Lisa. Everyone knows my Auntie Lisa,
and you know Monte Lisa, but she always gives me
fantastic advice. And I think as women, especially during divorce
and during baby making years, during you know, when or
(16:54):
when you're thinking about divorcing, as women, we have this
fundamental fear of losing our security and that drives so
many of our decisions, and they're not always great decisions.
We make decisions to stay because we're scared or it
always comes down to where am I going to live
my basic needs? How am I going to meet my kids'
basic needs? Even women who I know whose husbands and
(17:19):
their network together is like ten million dollars, they will
still be saying to me, I can't leave him because
I'll be on the streets like this is just a
thing that women have.
Speaker 5 (17:30):
And it is.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
And it's also like just a fear of the unknown,
you know. I definitely remember thinking that, And now that
I have been divorced and separated for years, I'm like,
it's really actually not scary at all.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
You wish that you could go back and say to
your younger self, it's going to be okay, because you're
always okay. So I am constantly like, man, it's just me,
like you are always okay. It has been so many
times in your life where you've thought, no, this time,
I'm not going to be okay. But voila, you are.
But I remember Lisa said to me, she goes you. Women,
(18:04):
women need to stop thinking of money as our security,
because you know, for thousands of years it hasn't been,
and this is where the fear comes from. And we
need to remember she goes, your bank might go bankrupt tomorrow.
Your house might burn down while the insurance company goes bankrupt.
These things happen to people, and you will end up
(18:26):
with nothing. And I was like, that's great. She goes,
it could happen to anyone. There is nothing you can
do to make sure that you will always be secure,
because I was saying to her, I just want a
house mortgage free. I just want you know what I mean, Like,
I just want to got this. Then I'll stop. Then
I'll stop.
Speaker 5 (18:40):
She says me.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
The only security that you will ever have is me,
is analys is the people that you are like fully
connected with, because.
Speaker 5 (18:49):
You know that your mother, we will never let you
not be okay.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
And nothing could ever stop that, like nothing, no amount
of you know of global disasters could stop us from
doing that for you. And so I've always thought about
that because I just thought, what a beautiful way of
looking at life. You're the people that love and that
love you are your security. And it's really difficult when
(19:14):
you're marrying and you're divorcing and you're having babies, whatever
you're doing in this bizarre sort of twenty year gap
that we go through, it's really really hard to make
the right decision. If you're constantly focused on your own security,
it's like kind of keeps you in the potato picking
kind of rolled, you know what I mean, Like you
never get to dream bigger because you're always freaking out
(19:37):
that well, no, I have to play the game because
I've got to keep the roof over the head.
Speaker 5 (19:41):
So yeah, that's something that I am currently thinking about
a lot.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
One of the different perspectives I have now. When I
think back to, like during my marriage or you know,
getting engaged, it's almost this like tick box, like you've
got to get engaged, you've got to buy a house,
you've got to have a baby, you've got to get married,
and it's you kind of tick along, and you almost
you're so focused on ticking the boxes that you get
(20:06):
swept up in it. And then when the boxes and
everything c down, now I'm like, oh my god, none
of that stuff matters. You don't need to be married.
I'm very happily renting. You don't need a husband, like
none of us. So true actually matters. There is no timeline,
absolutely true.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
And recently I was listening to an old song, you know, the.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
Glory days songs like the early two Thousand's house music.
I mean, every time I put that on my Instagram,
every woman that's our age is just like, oh my god.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
The dangers.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
And when I listen to music that I love, it
ignites something in me, and it ignites some sort of dopamine.
And I feel this like I sit to DNS. The
only way I can describe it as magic, But it
kind of reminds me of life before kids and before
marriage and all this stuff, and it makes me wonder
if this sort of powerful dopamine can come to me
(21:00):
through music that makes me feel great, makes me feel
like I could do anything. Is our entire life structured
in a way that keeps that magic away from us
so that we don't so that we believe we have
to keep ticking those boxes, Because like, once you start
feeling great no matter what, you don't need the shiny
(21:23):
car and then anything. You could literally live in a
van and be happy and feel connected and feel everything
that you want. But we don't live a life that
actually encourages any of that stuff. So I just part
of me wonders how much of it's been done on purpose?
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Capitalism, Yeah, you're spending money on renovating and picking that's it.
Speaker 5 (21:45):
Yes, Yes, so I think we should all go to
a rave.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
I'm definitely coming to a ray with you. It's been
far too long.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
Far too long. Oh my god, do you know what
I mean?
Speaker 4 (21:56):
We need to be bringing back that playfulness of our
youth and doing things experiences that just make us feel great.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
Con you had something happen recently that could potentially scare
women our age. Certainly would scare the crap out of me.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
Yeah, I had a pregnancy ski recently and I know, right,
maybe like start taking the mini pill, which I've stopped
taking because that was just gross.
Speaker 5 (22:22):
No, it gave me weird periods, but anyway, that's a
different story.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
But yeah, it really made me think about babies, and
because I was like, billy, everyone, my kid's getting older
makes me feel old. And I'll be honest, I do
worry about getting old a lot.
Speaker 5 (22:36):
Not on a superficial facial level or you.
Speaker 4 (22:39):
Know, wrinkling neck level, but more just I love its
life and I don't want it to be over and
I don't want to be old. Like you make jokes
all the time about your pension and chair that you
took down to the beach, and I can't make those
jaks because I have to find out what the young
people are sitting on and sit on it because I
am like, I have a phobia of getting old. And
then I was like, no, I don't want another baby,
(23:00):
like I'm obviously spread to thin and I think, you
know when you're done when the idea of having another
baby would take more away from your children, and then
it would give them you know what I mean. Cause
a lot of people want to give their kids a sibling,
and I get that obviously I've done a million times.
Speaker 5 (23:15):
But now it's like they've got enough siblings. They just
need more mum, really need more mum time. So but yeah,
the only.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
Plus of having a baby that I thought of was
it just makes you feel like like if you think
about middle age, beginning of life, end of life, it
just felt like it was dragging me back to the
beginning of.
Speaker 5 (23:31):
Life a little bit more rather than pushing me. Do
you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (23:35):
No, with the amount of kids that you have, you're
gonna be a grandma soon, don't worry.
Speaker 5 (23:38):
I hope. So I really do well.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
Constance Hall, or as I call you, con thank you
so much for coming on this glorious mess.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
Thank you for having me. I'm so proud of you, Analse.
Everywhere I go, everyone says to me, you know, what's
Analist doing because everyone thinks of me and you was
stuck together, and I'm like, oh, you know, she's hosting
a podcast, working at mom and Mia like, you're living
the dream life. You're slaying it and you're slagh divorce,
which is and now you've like, honestly, you're in a
(24:12):
healthy relationship with the best mum. And I'm just so
frigging if I was your mum right now, I could
die happy. You've done such an amazing job.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (24:20):
I love you, and I love coming on your show.
Can you have me on again?
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (24:27):
I still can't get over that she's got seven children.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
I know, and I always tease you for having too many,
and you've got three.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Oh my gosh. Three, it's not oh my gosh. But
I really loved it. Was it was great perspective because
obviously her kids are quite older than mine, so it's
great to hear what's what's going on at that stage
of life. But I did love her advice in terms of,
you know, just letting that judgment slide right off because
you know I'm sensitive Sally over here, so yeah, and
(24:55):
she's some nice advice.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
She's probably the most resilient person I've ever met.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Yeah, unoffendable. I love that. I'm in awe.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
My husband's like that, unoffendable, and I have a couple
of friends and I'm like nothing bothers you like it
doesn't teflon?
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Well, thank you so so much for listening to this
glorious mess. We hope you enjoyed the episode, and we'd
love it if you left us a rating or review.
If you love the.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Show, please keep sharing with us on the mum and
mea family Facebook page and Muma mea family Instagram, or
you can leave us a message.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
All the details are in the show notes.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
This episode was produced by Tom Lyon, with audio production
by Jacob Brown. Bye, see you next time.
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