May 18, 2025 • 34 mins
Parent educator and mother of four boys Gen Muir returns with a counterintuitive approach to sibling rivalry, and some desperately needed strategies to get to the root cause of sibling fights. Gen offers a refreshing perspective on why conflicts between siblings occur and what they're really about (hint: it's often not what parents think!)
Her approach helps parents understand when to step in, when to step back, and how to transform these challenging moments into opportunities for growth. The reassuring takeaway? We only need to get parenting right 30% of the time to raise emotionally healthy children.
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With thanks to Gen Muir
Listen to Gen's podcast How to Build A Universe
CREDITS:
Hosts: Annaliese Todd & Tegan Natoli
Producer: Tina Matolov
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
this glorious mess. We're embracing the chaos together, ditching the judgment.
I'm Annal's todd, a single mum to a teen and
tween age sons whose favorite pastime would be sibling rivalry,
(00:38):
tipped for tat and well fighting.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
What sibling do you have? I've got a younger sister.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
A younger sister or so you're the older sister and
I am taken to TOLLI I am a younger sister
to big brother whose friends I always wanted to pash
growing up.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Did we often need in mission? Sometimes I did?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah, I did, and as you can imagine, caused much
sibling rivalry in our household, confirming we were you know,
of age teenagers. Yeah cool, Yeah, but of course there
was nothing that pissed him off more. Well, today's that's
the theme of the show. Sure is because we are
thrilled to welcome back parent, educator, author and our guru
(01:23):
of all things Jen Muir. She's promised us to hack
teas for how to solve ninety percent of sibling fights.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Oh, I am here for this. This is a big claim.
Ninety percent. It is a really big claim.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
But Jen is the host of Mum and Me as
How to Build a Universe podcast and mum of four boys.
So if there's anyone I'm going to put my trust
in to know the answer to this, it's her, because
today she'll be joining us sharing the root causes of
why our kids fight and how we can eliminate ninety
percent of it. Ninety percent, Tiagan, I would say that
ninety percent of the pain point of parenting for me
(02:02):
is my children fighting.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Yeah. See, I think I've just reached that.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Era.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
My kids be seven and six, Like they're really in
the like the launch pad of like let's blockhorn yet
let me just make my mum's life hell and argue
all the time. I would say that it is most
of the time at the moment, I've got ten and
thirteen boys and they just fight.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
And what are they fighting over? Your boys? Things? Everything? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
And also just teasing each other ye, like my hair's
curlier than your.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah, just so insufferable.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yes, So that's that's that I'm in the I'm in
the welcome era of that, and it's not nice and
it drives me mental, or.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
You know, the dobbing. The dobbing is.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Starting and I'm like, I don't care that he said
boom boom bum bum, Like I don't care. And I
find myself saying, guys, I only see you half the time,
like I've got fifty to fifty custody. I don't want
all of the time I get with you to be
listening to this and solving this and like yelling at you.
And it doesn't really matter, that's the thing. It's like
half the time, it's just absolute nonsense. I do feel
(03:11):
sorry for Banjo though, because I feel like instantly the
dynamic having older twin sisters is two against one. Yes,
and you know, sometimes he's an absolute jerk and winds
them up, but I feel like it's because he's always
in defense mode having these two older sisters. But yes,
I find that they're often fighting over objects, things, or
(03:34):
just nothing at all, really, like just crap. Well, bring
on Jen Mule and her game changing life. I feel
like this is going to be alive changing moment.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
I can't wait. I need it more than ever.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
But first, tags, here's what's happening in micropchat, So teags.
I'm listening to an audio book at the moment, oh
lazy girl reading, Yes, and it's called Love Life by
Matthew Hussey. I can highly recommend it. And it's really
it's about looking at the relationship that we have, but
mostly with ourselves, So it's not about navigating love our
(04:11):
love life. It's about the deeper issues of out that
our love lives reveal and how we heal our own wounds.
And is it only about romantic relationships or relationships. It's
definitely focused on romantic relationships, but you can apply these
principles to any relationship.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
And the thing that the chapter is it a chapter
when it's an audiobook.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
I guess the segment that really I loved was the
best advice I've ever heard for heartbreak. But obviously, if
you're not going through heartbreak, you can apply this to
a friendship ending or you know, a workplace that ending,
anything that's ending, you can apply this, and it is
how to navigate through healthully, Okay, So number one, connect
(04:54):
with the new sense of peace their absence brings. So
basically you reflect on anything that wasn't good or right
and anything that caused anxiety. Yep, and you're like, okay,
we'll hone in on that. Now that that's left, I've
got peace. Yes, okay, the positive of the departure and
you know I love my silver lines.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
So number two know that you will need to repeat
the story a lot, and that's okay. And that's probably
you know people who are ending a marriage. It's very
shock when you tell people. Yes, okay, I'm.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Like repeat it. You have to do it all over again.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Yeah, no, I mean like telling the telling of Yeah,
that's okay.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Number three.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Remove the things that remind you of them. So that's
just objects or things. You just get get rid of them.
Makes sense and processing is fine, but compartmentalized. Then get
on with the rest of the day.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Okay. Yeah, they seem quite simple and doable. Yeah. Number four.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Do things that you wouldn't or couldn't do while you
were with them.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Oh, that's great. So it's like book a trip, oh,
go and see a musical. Yeah, you know, just things
that you wouldn't do if you were with that person
that you do have to stand with no one, design
whatever whatever you want to do, like, you can do
it now. Yes, Number Five Resist the rebound relationship. This
isn't a fun del this is like rebound relationship. Okay,
(06:13):
so don't go into another relationship. Are you allowed to
have a bit of hanky panky?
Speaker 1 (06:16):
I mean he didn't go into that.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Okay, sorry, But it's more about you need to get
back to a place of being happy in your own self,
in your own life, in your own company before you
should really open up and share.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Okay, someone new yep.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
So don't look for that other person to replace the
person that's just gone. No, that's You've got to get
fund that into yourself.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Gotcha.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
I think is a great rule, and I think women
are much better at it.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, but also I don't know, I feel like women
we like we like the company, you know what I mean,
Like we liked.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
We're good at you know, girlfriends and all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Well, like my there goes my old botto. You can't
get over someone until you're under someone else.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
And the last point is this is your life and
you're the star. Once a relationship ends, that person is
no longer important.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
It doesn't matter what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
It's written for you, Mariah, it really was. I'm no
wonder you love this book so much. If any book
told you that it's your story and your the stars,
you're instantly going to love this book. No, it's because
that person is no longer relevant, basically, and it's a
really good mind shift, and it's an important mind shift.
And really, at the end of the day, the love
(07:28):
of your life will choose to be in your life.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
The love of your life.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Power doesn't walk away, and it doesn't end. They're not
your person.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
They're not your person.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Amen, Matthew Hustle, You're welcome.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
So today we're joined by parent educator and our guru
of everything she is gen Muir, to deep dive into
the reason behind why siblings fight and some desperately needed
hacks and strategies to get to the root cause and
stop well most of our kids fighting.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
That would be wonderful. Welcome back to.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
This glorious mass genuity.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Welcome, Welcome, help us. Please. Yes, you've got four boys.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
I sure do so this sibling fighting. With your hack,
have you managed to stop ninety percent of the fights
in your home with what you're about to impart to us?
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Absolutely not. Okay, that's false advertising.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
We do appreciate your odicity though, and you make us
all feel much more valid.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
Absolutely not, and that.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Is not the goal, okay, because sibling fighting is actually
a really positive and good thing. And hang with me, right,
It's a positive and good thing for our kids because
through sibling fighting, kids are learning conflict skills, negotiation skills,
social skills, frustration tolerance. There is so much positive stuff.
(08:58):
At least you love a silver lining. The silver lining.
What's the difference between like healthy and normal and that's
good for their development? And just like that's really not probably,
I know violence. We're going to get there. We're going
to get there. I want to tell a quick story.
When I was a very young parent, I just had
(09:20):
like the first parenting education I ever undertook. Right, I
felt like my older child kept picking on the baby,
and I was like, what is wrong with my child?
Speaker 3 (09:28):
He's obviously got a problem, probably destined for prison.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
So I went off to a parenting course in a
community center somewhere and it was on boundaries or something,
and sibling fighting. Like they said to the parents in
the room, what's the number one thing that stresses you out?
What's the hardest thing. Everyone was like, sibling fighting stares
my head in yes, and that's interesting in itself that
(09:51):
that's the number one thing that gets to us, right,
because there's a.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Value thing there.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Because the number one thing I think we want as
parents is to raise these humans that if you've had
more than one child, you're giving them a friend, you
want them to get along, You're.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Hoping they will look out for each other. So the
number one value we have for kind of what we're doing.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Here is the whole within.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
That's the whole point for you guys, to be there
for each other the rest.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Of your life.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
So when they're fighting, that value of what we really
want from our kids is being completely threatened.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
And I think.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Mostly why parents in particular, maybe overstimulated mums can't stand
it is because it's just so annoying, the sound of it,
the notion of it, relentless, yeah, intervening from our end,
like it's just it's like another job.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
It is another job.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
And also there is that thing in the back of
our head that when particularly maybe you've got one chuck
continually picking at the otherwise snap and it feels like
groundhog Day and you think they will never that's where
we go. We go to that fair place. So the
reason it gets to us is actually not that it's
necessarily more annoying than other behaviors that they do, but
(11:10):
because it challenges a value. And what this lady said
in this course, she said, next time that sibling fighting,
it's healthy, it's normal.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
And I was thinking, oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
This AM's crazy.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
And then she said, what if next time your children
you hear your children fighting in another room, you walk
in and say, what a wonderful opportunity to learn about
conflict and negotiation.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Okay, you know how that goes? And how did that
go for you?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
J I was like, she's going and so look we'll
talk about you took the pros, and it gave me
something to think about, like what if we viewed it
as a positive? Sibling fighting is never positive if kids
are calling each other names, or if they are hitting
or hurting each other. And that's where as parents, what
(11:57):
you've got to have is some core rules around the
way we treat each other. There's no hitting and hurting,
and there's no name calling. And when someone is crying,
we stop like or saying stop right, that's consent. So
those three rules help me as a parent. And then
we're actually stepping back from a lot of sibling fighting.
When there's no call rule being broken. We're saying, well,
this is fantastic. You guys are having this wonderful opportunity
(12:19):
to learn about conflict and negotiation.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
This is actually great.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
My children would look at me and be like, oh
my god, what has happened to my mum?
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Why isn't she clicking it at us? Clicking it at
each other?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Because the problem is our kids are seeking us in
twenty four seven and because we are so threatened and
so kind of impacted by sibling fighting. What's the quickest,
most effective, best way to draw your parents in.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
One hundred percent of the time. Attention somemp your brother.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yeah, so they learn through us intervening and over intervening,
stepping in too much of the time.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
That's a good way to draw us in.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Right, So kids need us, but we kind of want
to encourage them seeking us out in more sort of
ways that annoy us less. But if we keep reinforcing
that behavior by stepping in for every problem and being
the adjudicator and being the person that sorts it out. Okay, fine,
I'm setting a timer and I'm going to run this.
They're not learning the skills of conflict and negotiation. So
(13:20):
it's about stepping out a lot of the time viewing
it as positive. I can hear you, guys that having
a big struggle, you both want the same thing. I
can't wait to hear how you guys problem solve this.
You guys are amazing from someone. Yeah, that's reverse psychology
at its best. So you've mentioned over intervening, as you know,
one of the ways we can get it wrong. What
(13:40):
are some of the other big mistakes you see other
parents make when they're jumping into referee sibling rivalry. Probably
the biggest is stepping in and taking responsibility for the
solutions instead of letting.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
The kids get there.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
So what I like parents to try doing instead of
stepping in is if needed at all. Sometimes you hear
your children fighting and you think, yep, I can hear
that I'm not needed. A lot of the time you
hear your children fighting and I don't know about you, guys,
but as a mum, I can go, someone's going to
hit someone in five four. You know, you could almost
(14:16):
count it down. We know as parents when things are
getting heated, and that might be our cue to go
A core rules about to be broken, someone's about the
thump summer.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
So I'm stepping in.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
But before I step in and kind of intervene too soon,
because I want them to develop these skills.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
I'm stepping in.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
I'm like, wholl guys, I can see things are getting
really heated. I can see two kids and you want
the one toy, or I can see two kids and
you're fighting over someone borrow someone's top, whatever it is.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Ah, looks like this is tricky.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
I wonder what we're gonna do. And you're coming in
so that you're there. If a core rule is being broken,
but you're not stepping into, say that's it.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
I'm sorting this out. Yeah you know, blah blah blah.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
And I noticed a lot from what you said then
was almost when you do intervene, it's just making the
observation rather than like stop doing that to your brother
or go and get away from you. See, my first
reaction is always like stop it, Like I just want
to stop it. I know, I know, like I just
wanted to stop not I don't even care about solving it.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
I just want it to stop. Right. So we're not
getting anywhere there, We're not, So.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
I'll give you another example, you've got two kids rumbling
on the tramplane. One's having a really good time, but
the other one's not. And if we just stop it right,
our child that's essentially not reading a social cure. The
child that's having a good time is not reading the
expression or the moaning or the winding of the other time.
(15:37):
So we come close and it sounds time consuming, but
it saves you so much time, and you're like, ah,
you know, just say it's my kids.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Oh, and I can see.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
You having a really good time.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
But I'm looking at Liam's face.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
He looks a bit worried. Should we check if he's.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Having fun in this game?
Speaker 2 (15:50):
And they're doing it, and you're actually encouraging both kids
because we often there's dynamics here. We've got a younger
child or a less dominant child, he's having trouble speaking up.
We've got an older child or a more dominant child
who is not reading social cures. They're not reading that
this is not a fun game if we're not all
enjoying it. And again, what we're teaching is the foundations
(16:13):
of consent. Like we're waiting too late. If we start
talking about consent and kind of reading cues as teenagers,
we do these siblings is how we learn about consent. Right,
If I'm having a really good time on the trampoline
but my sibling is not, that's not consensual fun. We're
checking on them. We're changing the game to make sure
everyone's having fun.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Coming up after this short break, Gen shares more golden
nuggets of wisdom about how we can get our kids
to stop fighting. I've hit a really annoying stage of
parenting with my kids because.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
I've got stages zero to thirty nocause obviously you go.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
You know, when they're young, it's a squabble over toys.
Then it might be more physical. We're at the teen
and tween era, and because I'm a single mum and
there's three of us, it becomes very tit for tat,
and it becomes like I'm the soul and it's just
like one again the other pitting each other. And it's
about silly things like my hair's better. You know, it's
(17:14):
real teasing and barbs about the tearing. Its teasy, but
it's things that I just I can't stand it. So
as they're getting older and it's more complex, it's not
over a toy, how do we progress? So this is
the thing that I think is the real game changer
when it comes to what underlies a lot of persistent
or annoying or like that kind of sibling stuff where
(17:36):
it's not about I just see it, like they're being mean,
they're being nasty, and they're they're going for the low blow. Yeah,
Or you've got one sibling that says the sky's blue
and the other one's like, no, it's not.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
You're just to piss the other one off.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
You're like, oh, So the biggest game changer when it
comes to understanding why dore siblings fight, because we talked
about how kids are always seeking connection. The biggest way
to pull us in is sibling fighting. It's about us
and them. So it is one hundred percent about siblings
constantly jostling for, like seeking in that approval. Even as tweens,
(18:12):
even as teens, they're still jostling to like, Mum, I'm
the better one, or like whatever it is that's happening. Now,
that's not a conscious decision, Like even at fifteen, that's
not a conscious decision, like I know how to get
my mum's attention. Because if it was conscious you'd think, mate,
you're pissing me off, like you don't want this attention
from me, you're driving me crazy, and you're are.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
You a good human?
Speaker 2 (18:33):
So two things that I think changed the game. When
it's that persistent stuff, whether it is a three year
old picking on a baby unrelentingly, which we see a lot,
or it's a fourteen year old just putting down a
younger sibling or whatever constantly, like whichever it is. Number one,
it's about if we can realize it's more about us
and them and just fine ways to connect. So like,
(18:57):
just ten minutes of one on one, fully focused. I
just love you so much. I can't wait to be
with you. I love it when we get time together.
I love hearing about your favorite topic. I went and
joined my thirteen year old for ten minutes of playing Valorant.
I don't know if you know what that is, but
it's video Yeah, it's a video game, not my thing.
(19:17):
Ten minutes and the difference in his behavior so profound, right,
So number one connection.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Number two empathy.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
It sucks being the eldest, It sucks being the youngest,
It sucks being the middlest. It sucks when your brother
has more blueberries than you, or like, the reality is
it is hard. And as parents, our child says you
love him more than me. Essentially, when they're picking on
each other, what they're really saying is you love him
more than me and whatever.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
That's how they're just offloading these feelings.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
And if we can stop and go instead of of
course I love you both the same, and of course
you get the most thing, and we're just trying to
make everything even and make everything work.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
What if we just stop and go.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
I've been thinking about you, and sometimes I reckon, your
brother can be so annoying, and I reckon that must.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Be so hard some days. So are we allowed to
say that?
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Because this morning I was usually saying to my daughter,
he's just being a pest. And then I'm like, oh, gosh,
am I like feeding this narrative vehtstory because I.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Think it's a reality.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
And sometimes when there's different personalities, like sometimes you might
have one child who genuinely has a younger sibling.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
They wish was a bit different.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
What if we have a child with additional needs and
we've got a child that has to go under the
radar or kind of miss stuff sometimes because of the
demands of another child. And if we keep just saying,
you don't understand your brother has needs, you know, blah
blah blah, and sometimes we've got to stop and go,
I bet you wish your brother didn't have these needs.
And if you sometimes hate that your brother has needs,
(20:41):
I would get it. And it almost feels like we're
saying the unthinkable because we want them to be compassionate
and understand.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
But you're giving them permission to have a mission.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
And then we name it, we tame it, we bring
it out of the back of the brain, and often
it dissipates, Like you go, it must suck being the eldest.
You must hate that sometimes you feel responsible for in
my case, you know, three other brothers, or you have
to go without things, And I would get it if
some days you wish that was different.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Name it, and then actually that child feels.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Not only just seen and heard, but it dissipates that
issue a little bit, and often they feel better. Oh
my god, I feel like I'm a better parot already
because this advice you've given before, and it's about I
hear you. Yeah, that's your life, single beggest thing we
can do. I hear you, because in society we are
conditioned to push emotions away or down, or distract or
avoid or tap dance around them because this is the
(21:35):
way the world works and it's our training as humans.
And so we're trying to override that instinct to fix
this or teach our kids or solve it. And before
we do any of that, just hear them.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
And what can that look like?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
So when you see your kids that you know it's
starting to get heated, does it literally mean, hey, Banjo,
can you come over here? I've got I want to
I want to talk to you about you know, how
soccer was today?
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Like, is it literally like in that moment.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
When you can see it's about to start that you
take one and give them a minute to almost distract
them from where they're going. Yeah, So there's so many options.
One is you could like, okay and when possible, Let's
be honest, sometimes we don't have it in us to
do any of these, and we're going to do all
the wrong things and say shap Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
I'm going in with the right, the right. It's all
about the intent, right.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
But let's just think about it.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
So, one thing that's happening when we're feeling frustrated with
a sibling, like, if it's kind of just general this
is not going well, one of my kids is a
bit off or whatever, then what we want to.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Do is lower cortisol.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
So anything we can do that lowers cortisol in the house.
So you might just put on some silly music, or
you might make a joke, or you might join them
and fill all the cups.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
All at once, or you might grab one chart and go,
I really want.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Your help with a special project, or you might depends
what their love language is, and it sort of depends.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
We're trying to go.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
I can see this.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
I'm going to do a bit of preventative absolutely, But
often I think in the moment.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
Realistically, I don't catch that. A lot of us don't
catch that.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
It kind of does what it does, and we're having
to intervene in the fight.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
But if we can stop and go where we've.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Got a persistent particularly if it's one child and they
keep picking and picking and picking, that's when I'd be like, okay,
we need to stop one night when the kids are
in bed and go what am I going to do
tomorrow to really fill that child's cup? So then I
might go, hey, first thing in the morning, I've just
realized it's just you and me taking you to school
this morning. Do you want to go and get a
hot chocolate together. I just really want time with you.
(23:31):
I love it when I get time with you. You know,
those little things that we do make our kids feel
so amazing. Yeah, So it's not about waiting for it
to them to get to that point where they're pouring
out those you know, the background feelings and emotions. It's
like stepping in to almost prevent them and sometimes spotting,
Like sometimes you might have a morning and one child
is just like pick pick pick at a sibling and
(23:52):
you might kind of go, like, what we're always trying
to do is yes, kind of name or hear them,
but also kind of think, what is underneath this, what's
really happening here?
Speaker 3 (24:01):
What's really going on?
Speaker 2 (24:02):
So you see that child, they're upset with the way
you cut their toast, and then they pick pick pick
pick at.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
A sibling and you think hmmm, and you go up.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
You just rub their back and you go You're like,
you're having a bit of a hard day's day.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Brother's really annoying you.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
You can be annoying and it's the first day back
to school after the holidays. That can be tough, an't it?
And give them a squeeze. And you've just named two
big things. You've really gone.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
I see you. I see that, just so warm and fuzzy.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yes, if it's just your your peaceful voice, My god,
my kids would be like, where do I find a
mom like that?
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (24:43):
My gosh, your mornings and my mornings, I feel jen
look very different. But I'm gonna I feel like I'm
getting lots of hot tips. Oh look, my morning's probably
look a lot like she's got even more kids than
you team.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
I know that. What were we thinking?
Speaker 3 (24:59):
You know, it's the only funny like this morning.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
My eldest who does a lot of critiquing of my parenting, like,
you know, he sort of thinks I need to be
firmer with these younger children. Yeah anyway, okay, well maybe
he'll follow in your footsteps and be parenting it.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
So he's like, you know, you need to be fair
with these kids.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
But my third child got really worked up because he
was late for the bus.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
So he's just like and he's.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Yelling at my husband about giving him soy sauce for
his sushi rolls, right.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
So he's like, hurry dat, hurry, hurry, and he's.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Like screaming at my husband, which to us has grown
adults make sense because he's ten and he's trying to
catch a bus. So that's a lot for him. And
so he's being a good kid in our minds. And
the eldest is at the fridge and he's like, you
really don't need to carry on like that. There's no
need for that kind of dog because the eldest children
loved parent, and he's kind of like he.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Just shouldn't do that way.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Sticking up and you know again, I just sort of
came close to him and I kind of, you know,
like I can't rub his back because he's fifteen, he'd
stop it off. I went and I said, you know,
what do you think is going on there for him?
And he's just like because he's older, so I can
start to really sort of talk some more logic. I'm like,
what do you think is going on there for him?
And he's like, I don't know, he's being rude, and
I'm like, so he's ten and he's really worried about
(26:22):
catching the bus, and so he's like a bit heightened.
I sort of think you'd be the same.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Yeah, you know, so you can.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Did he step back and have a little reflection? I
think he did, Actually, I think he did. But that
would not have worked when he was ten. It's sort
of like he's getting to an age where you're like
and also, ps, dude, when you're running like no angel.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
So yeah, but look, if I had more time, I
would have said, yeah, it's frustrating seeing younger siblings talk
like that, and I appreciate your help, and it's hard
being the eldest and all of that stuff, and I
wonder what's going on for him. So if we can
start to narrate what do you think is going on
underneath that behavior, our kids do start to learn what's
happening for each.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Other as well.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Yeah that's so nice and making them kind of look
under the surface for each other.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
So for those of us who've been getting it wrong
in this, but would you say at this point to
be like, Okay, let's sit down and have a chat.
You know, I've been thinking about there's been a lot
of fights lately, and let's just have a bit of
a chat about some ground rules. And how we can
move forward. How do we do a reset? Yes, I
(27:29):
love a family meeting. I've recently had a big family
rule reset around screens. You know, I probably have to
have another one in a week because we'll all run
off track back, you know, when things run off track
with the way we're treating each other, the way we're
talking to each other. Let's sit down and talk about
these and get their input and if you can get
them all to agree on those three core rules.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
What are the core rules again?
Speaker 2 (27:50):
No hitting or hurting each other yourself, no damage to property,
no name calling. And I would add one more four rules.
When someone is crying or says stop, we stop and
we check if they're okay, yeah, okay, okay. So that's
four carruls, but there's more. You're not expecting that your
kids will just go Well, now that you've read those,
(28:12):
make sense them on the whiteboard and thanks mum, now
they're on the fridge.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
I'll just do it, no problem. I'm sure they're.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Going to need your help because their brains are still
developing til twenty five to twenty eight years of age.
They need you to step in and model it. So
when they break a rule, WHOA not going to let
you hit each other. I'm going to move you or
move you to keep you safe. I am here, I've
got you contain, and then empathy, why did we hear
what happened? That's the only way to stop kids from
(28:43):
hitting or hurting, because the alternative is.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
We do not in his family go to your room.
That's me. Were you in my house this morning?
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Okay, So in that scenario, and then, as you said earlier,
that just heightens all the intensity.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Yeah, so I don't like your kid goes.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
To their room.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Yeah, they may you say, come back when you can
say you're sorry. They may even come back and say
they're sorry, but here is what has not happened.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Well sorry. Then I'm like, well you're not really sorry.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
I know, And then nothing's happening.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
So we do all of that, it feels like we've
done something like at least I've taught you that it's okay.
But all our child's learn is like hide the hit, beau,
get better on it. Whereas if I stay with them
within reason, you can't always be completely there. But like, whoa, guys,
I'm here to help you sort this out because I've
(29:36):
got a fully developed prefrontal cortex. You guys, don't, I've
got you. I can contain you until we are calm again,
and then I'm going to go.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Looks like things went wrong here.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
What happened?
Speaker 3 (29:45):
And you might be with one and you go, I
get it.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
He's really annoying the way he keeps touching your good
lego set or whatever it is. Cali hit though, So
what are we going to do next time your brother
annoys you? We are hoping that with that repeated message
and with the practice over and over and over again,
they learn an alternative way to behave whereas if we
just put them in their room, Yes they go to
their room, Yes they learn to hide the hit from you,
(30:08):
but they haven't learned how to handle what is essentially
frustration tolerance. Yeah, when a sibling is annoying me, I'm
frustrated and if it gets too much, I'm going to
use my body.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
What are my other options?
Speaker 2 (30:21):
The tolerance is the ability to regulate through that frustration
and choose another option.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Oh my gosh, you's so wise.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Okay, but genuor can you please move in, even just
for a week, just so that I can have all
the modeling And then I can model the modeling well,
even on your Instagram, because I love watching all the
things on your Instagram page, and I'm like, it's so simple,
Yet why aren't I doing it?
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Like?
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Or it makes so much sense? How don't I know that?
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Like, because you know, our covert programming, what we were
taught in the first five years is the automatic programming.
So when we're trying to do this stuff, we're overriding
our in six And let me tell you, I get
it wrong all the time. And what's beautiful is my
kids know it so well now they get like, I
remember why it's driving my kids. I go, that's it,
There'll be no whatever, like a threat, you know, And
(31:11):
my kids go, I thought we didn't do threats and parnation.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
I did.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
One of them chime in and say, so, what's really
going on today? And I'm driving the car.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Yes, you're right, we don't. Fine, but you're right.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
It's like the triggers override the sense half the time.
And you're like, I know what I'm meant to be doing,
and I know this is not productive parenting, but you know,
you just need It's almost like we need to really
what is going on underneath you? For me two single
biggest things you can do to be a better parent
in these moments. Number one is self compassion, Be kind
to yourself, take care of yourself when you get it wrong.
(31:46):
As a parent, view that as geez, these kids are
hard and this is hard, and I'm doing the best
that I can, and I deserve like a choky or
something nice rather than I'm such a bad parent.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
Why am I getting this wrong?
Speaker 2 (31:58):
Because if you are nice to yourself and you are
compassionate to yourself, you're rewiring some of.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
That sort of hardness.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
And actually, when we're kinder to ourselves, that compassion flows
onto our kids. So when we can have that okay,
I'm doing the best that I can, and so is
my child. And then the second thing is knowing that
whenever we get it wrong, like it is totally okay.
Often my best breakthrough moments in my parenting have happened
when I have done not just one wrong thing, but
ten wrong things in a row, and I have gone
(32:26):
had to go to my child and say, WHOA, I
got that wrong. I'm really sorry, And it's in the
repair that often we shift so it's okay. It's meant
to be messy it's not meant to feel like you
know what you're doing. No one knows what they're doing.
And the other thing that I remember your advice that
I literally just it's in my brain and everyone needs
to hear, is that you only need to get it
(32:48):
right thirty correct of the time correct to praise a
good human. That's so on track, guys, particularly when it
comes to this naming of emotions or fully two feet
in empathy, Like I'm putting aside everything that is happening
in our world, in our life for me, everything to go.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
Ah, that sounds so hard.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Empathy, empathy. We only have to.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Do that with our kids thirty percent of time, and
in fact more is not better for kids.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
If you were empathizing.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
With constantly, if you're sitting on the floor every time
your child had a struggle, I mean none of us
would be here this morning, like you know, we wouldn't
have left the house, We'd still be on the floor empathize.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
It could just be flat always and.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
They would be very emotional, but not very resilient.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
So it's really important that kids get an experience it both.
Sometimes we have to just like you know, your child's
having a hard time, you know, getting off the swing
and you're like, yeah, but we got to get going.
We're late, so you're just gonna get get going and
pick them up and put them in the car.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
And off we go.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
That's okay, Jenmure, thank you so much to all day,
literally all day. And I'm not joking about the moving
that offer is there? Would you be my sister? Couldn't
we all? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Those sister wives, I've got it going.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Jen has always has such a pleasure to have on
the show, and hopefully all our listeners have taken away
as much as we have. Thanks guys, and we're going
to share a link in the show notes of how
people can hear how to build a universe more beautiful
Jen Wisdom there.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Thank you for listening to this glorious mess.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
We hope you enjoyed the episode and the episode was
produced by Tina Matlov with audio production by Jacob Brown.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
To see you next week, I'm
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
this glorious mess. We're embracing the chaos together, ditching the judgment.
I'm Annal's todd, a single mum to a teen and
tween age sons whose favorite pastime would be sibling rivalry,
(00:38):
tipped for tat and well fighting.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
What sibling do you have? I've got a younger sister.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
A younger sister or so you're the older sister and
I am taken to TOLLI I am a younger sister
to big brother whose friends I always wanted to pash
growing up.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Did we often need in mission? Sometimes I did?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah, I did, and as you can imagine, caused much
sibling rivalry in our household, confirming we were you know,
of age teenagers. Yeah cool, Yeah, but of course there
was nothing that pissed him off more. Well, today's that's
the theme of the show. Sure is because we are
thrilled to welcome back parent, educator, author and our guru
(01:23):
of all things Jen Muir. She's promised us to hack
teas for how to solve ninety percent of sibling fights.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Oh, I am here for this. This is a big claim.
Ninety percent. It is a really big claim.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
But Jen is the host of Mum and Me as
How to Build a Universe podcast and mum of four boys.
So if there's anyone I'm going to put my trust
in to know the answer to this, it's her, because
today she'll be joining us sharing the root causes of
why our kids fight and how we can eliminate ninety
percent of it. Ninety percent, Tiagan, I would say that
ninety percent of the pain point of parenting for me
(02:02):
is my children fighting.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Yeah. See, I think I've just reached that.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Era.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
My kids be seven and six, Like they're really in
the like the launch pad of like let's blockhorn yet
let me just make my mum's life hell and argue
all the time. I would say that it is most
of the time at the moment, I've got ten and
thirteen boys and they just fight.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
And what are they fighting over? Your boys? Things? Everything? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
And also just teasing each other ye, like my hair's
curlier than your.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah, just so insufferable.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yes, So that's that's that I'm in the I'm in
the welcome era of that, and it's not nice and
it drives me mental, or.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
You know, the dobbing. The dobbing is.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Starting and I'm like, I don't care that he said
boom boom bum bum, Like I don't care. And I
find myself saying, guys, I only see you half the time,
like I've got fifty to fifty custody. I don't want
all of the time I get with you to be
listening to this and solving this and like yelling at you.
And it doesn't really matter, that's the thing. It's like
half the time, it's just absolute nonsense. I do feel
(03:11):
sorry for Banjo though, because I feel like instantly the
dynamic having older twin sisters is two against one. Yes,
and you know, sometimes he's an absolute jerk and winds
them up, but I feel like it's because he's always
in defense mode having these two older sisters. But yes,
I find that they're often fighting over objects, things, or
(03:34):
just nothing at all, really, like just crap. Well, bring
on Jen Mule and her game changing life. I feel
like this is going to be alive changing moment.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
I can't wait. I need it more than ever.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
But first, tags, here's what's happening in micropchat, So teags.
I'm listening to an audio book at the moment, oh
lazy girl reading, Yes, and it's called Love Life by
Matthew Hussey. I can highly recommend it. And it's really
it's about looking at the relationship that we have, but
mostly with ourselves, So it's not about navigating love our
(04:11):
love life. It's about the deeper issues of out that
our love lives reveal and how we heal our own wounds.
And is it only about romantic relationships or relationships. It's
definitely focused on romantic relationships, but you can apply these
principles to any relationship.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
And the thing that the chapter is it a chapter
when it's an audiobook.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
I guess the segment that really I loved was the
best advice I've ever heard for heartbreak. But obviously, if
you're not going through heartbreak, you can apply this to
a friendship ending or you know, a workplace that ending,
anything that's ending, you can apply this, and it is
how to navigate through healthully, Okay, So number one, connect
(04:54):
with the new sense of peace their absence brings. So
basically you reflect on anything that wasn't good or right
and anything that caused anxiety. Yep, and you're like, okay,
we'll hone in on that. Now that that's left, I've
got peace. Yes, okay, the positive of the departure and
you know I love my silver lines.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
So number two know that you will need to repeat
the story a lot, and that's okay. And that's probably
you know people who are ending a marriage. It's very
shock when you tell people. Yes, okay, I'm.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Like repeat it. You have to do it all over again.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Yeah, no, I mean like telling the telling of Yeah,
that's okay.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Number three.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Remove the things that remind you of them. So that's
just objects or things. You just get get rid of them.
Makes sense and processing is fine, but compartmentalized. Then get
on with the rest of the day.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Okay. Yeah, they seem quite simple and doable. Yeah. Number four.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Do things that you wouldn't or couldn't do while you
were with them.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Oh, that's great. So it's like book a trip, oh,
go and see a musical. Yeah, you know, just things
that you wouldn't do if you were with that person
that you do have to stand with no one, design
whatever whatever you want to do, like, you can do
it now. Yes, Number Five Resist the rebound relationship. This
isn't a fun del this is like rebound relationship. Okay,
(06:13):
so don't go into another relationship. Are you allowed to
have a bit of hanky panky?
Speaker 1 (06:16):
I mean he didn't go into that.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Okay, sorry, But it's more about you need to get
back to a place of being happy in your own self,
in your own life, in your own company before you
should really open up and share.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Okay, someone new yep.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
So don't look for that other person to replace the
person that's just gone. No, that's You've got to get
fund that into yourself.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Gotcha.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
I think is a great rule, and I think women
are much better at it.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, but also I don't know, I feel like women
we like we like the company, you know what I mean,
Like we liked.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
We're good at you know, girlfriends and all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Well, like my there goes my old botto. You can't
get over someone until you're under someone else.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
And the last point is this is your life and
you're the star. Once a relationship ends, that person is
no longer important.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
It doesn't matter what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
It's written for you, Mariah, it really was. I'm no
wonder you love this book so much. If any book
told you that it's your story and your the stars,
you're instantly going to love this book. No, it's because
that person is no longer relevant, basically, and it's a
really good mind shift, and it's an important mind shift.
And really, at the end of the day, the love
(07:28):
of your life will choose to be in your life.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
The love of your life.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Power doesn't walk away, and it doesn't end. They're not
your person.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
They're not your person.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Amen, Matthew Hustle, You're welcome.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
So today we're joined by parent educator and our guru
of everything she is gen Muir, to deep dive into
the reason behind why siblings fight and some desperately needed
hacks and strategies to get to the root cause and
stop well most of our kids fighting.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
That would be wonderful. Welcome back to.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
This glorious mass genuity.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Welcome, Welcome, help us. Please. Yes, you've got four boys.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
I sure do so this sibling fighting. With your hack,
have you managed to stop ninety percent of the fights
in your home with what you're about to impart to us?
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Absolutely not. Okay, that's false advertising.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
We do appreciate your odicity though, and you make us
all feel much more valid.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
Absolutely not, and that.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Is not the goal, okay, because sibling fighting is actually
a really positive and good thing. And hang with me, right,
It's a positive and good thing for our kids because
through sibling fighting, kids are learning conflict skills, negotiation skills,
social skills, frustration tolerance. There is so much positive stuff.
(08:58):
At least you love a silver lining. The silver lining.
What's the difference between like healthy and normal and that's
good for their development? And just like that's really not probably,
I know violence. We're going to get there. We're going
to get there. I want to tell a quick story.
When I was a very young parent, I just had
(09:20):
like the first parenting education I ever undertook. Right, I
felt like my older child kept picking on the baby,
and I was like, what is wrong with my child?
Speaker 3 (09:28):
He's obviously got a problem, probably destined for prison.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
So I went off to a parenting course in a
community center somewhere and it was on boundaries or something,
and sibling fighting. Like they said to the parents in
the room, what's the number one thing that stresses you out?
What's the hardest thing. Everyone was like, sibling fighting stares
my head in yes, and that's interesting in itself that
(09:51):
that's the number one thing that gets to us, right,
because there's a.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Value thing there.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Because the number one thing I think we want as
parents is to raise these humans that if you've had
more than one child, you're giving them a friend, you
want them to get along, You're.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Hoping they will look out for each other. So the
number one value we have for kind of what we're doing.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Here is the whole within.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
That's the whole point for you guys, to be there
for each other the rest.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Of your life.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
So when they're fighting, that value of what we really
want from our kids is being completely threatened.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
And I think.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Mostly why parents in particular, maybe overstimulated mums can't stand
it is because it's just so annoying, the sound of it,
the notion of it, relentless, yeah, intervening from our end,
like it's just it's like another job.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
It is another job.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
And also there is that thing in the back of
our head that when particularly maybe you've got one chuck
continually picking at the otherwise snap and it feels like
groundhog Day and you think they will never that's where
we go. We go to that fair place. So the
reason it gets to us is actually not that it's
necessarily more annoying than other behaviors that they do, but
(11:10):
because it challenges a value. And what this lady said
in this course, she said, next time that sibling fighting,
it's healthy, it's normal.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
And I was thinking, oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
This AM's crazy.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
And then she said, what if next time your children
you hear your children fighting in another room, you walk
in and say, what a wonderful opportunity to learn about
conflict and negotiation.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Okay, you know how that goes? And how did that
go for you?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
J I was like, she's going and so look we'll
talk about you took the pros, and it gave me
something to think about, like what if we viewed it
as a positive? Sibling fighting is never positive if kids
are calling each other names, or if they are hitting
or hurting each other. And that's where as parents, what
(11:57):
you've got to have is some core rules around the
way we treat each other. There's no hitting and hurting,
and there's no name calling. And when someone is crying,
we stop like or saying stop right, that's consent. So
those three rules help me as a parent. And then
we're actually stepping back from a lot of sibling fighting.
When there's no call rule being broken. We're saying, well,
this is fantastic. You guys are having this wonderful opportunity
(12:19):
to learn about conflict and negotiation.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
This is actually great.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
My children would look at me and be like, oh
my god, what has happened to my mum?
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Why isn't she clicking it at us? Clicking it at
each other?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Because the problem is our kids are seeking us in
twenty four seven and because we are so threatened and
so kind of impacted by sibling fighting. What's the quickest,
most effective, best way to draw your parents in.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
One hundred percent of the time. Attention somemp your brother.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yeah, so they learn through us intervening and over intervening,
stepping in too much of the time.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
That's a good way to draw us in.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Right, So kids need us, but we kind of want
to encourage them seeking us out in more sort of
ways that annoy us less. But if we keep reinforcing
that behavior by stepping in for every problem and being
the adjudicator and being the person that sorts it out. Okay, fine,
I'm setting a timer and I'm going to run this.
They're not learning the skills of conflict and negotiation. So
(13:20):
it's about stepping out a lot of the time viewing
it as positive. I can hear you, guys that having
a big struggle, you both want the same thing. I
can't wait to hear how you guys problem solve this.
You guys are amazing from someone. Yeah, that's reverse psychology
at its best. So you've mentioned over intervening, as you know,
one of the ways we can get it wrong. What
(13:40):
are some of the other big mistakes you see other
parents make when they're jumping into referee sibling rivalry. Probably
the biggest is stepping in and taking responsibility for the
solutions instead of letting.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
The kids get there.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
So what I like parents to try doing instead of
stepping in is if needed at all. Sometimes you hear
your children fighting and you think, yep, I can hear
that I'm not needed. A lot of the time you
hear your children fighting and I don't know about you, guys,
but as a mum, I can go, someone's going to
hit someone in five four. You know, you could almost
(14:16):
count it down. We know as parents when things are
getting heated, and that might be our cue to go
A core rules about to be broken, someone's about the
thump summer.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
So I'm stepping in.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
But before I step in and kind of intervene too soon,
because I want them to develop these skills.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
I'm stepping in.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
I'm like, wholl guys, I can see things are getting
really heated. I can see two kids and you want
the one toy, or I can see two kids and
you're fighting over someone borrow someone's top, whatever it is.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Ah, looks like this is tricky.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
I wonder what we're gonna do. And you're coming in
so that you're there. If a core rule is being broken,
but you're not stepping into, say that's it.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
I'm sorting this out. Yeah you know, blah blah blah.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
And I noticed a lot from what you said then
was almost when you do intervene, it's just making the
observation rather than like stop doing that to your brother
or go and get away from you. See, my first
reaction is always like stop it, Like I just want
to stop it. I know, I know, like I just
wanted to stop not I don't even care about solving it.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
I just want it to stop. Right. So we're not
getting anywhere there, We're not, So.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
I'll give you another example, you've got two kids rumbling
on the tramplane. One's having a really good time, but
the other one's not. And if we just stop it right,
our child that's essentially not reading a social cure. The
child that's having a good time is not reading the
expression or the moaning or the winding of the other time.
(15:37):
So we come close and it sounds time consuming, but
it saves you so much time, and you're like, ah,
you know, just say it's my kids.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Oh, and I can see.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
You having a really good time.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
But I'm looking at Liam's face.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
He looks a bit worried. Should we check if he's.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Having fun in this game?
Speaker 2 (15:50):
And they're doing it, and you're actually encouraging both kids
because we often there's dynamics here. We've got a younger
child or a less dominant child, he's having trouble speaking up.
We've got an older child or a more dominant child
who is not reading social cures. They're not reading that
this is not a fun game if we're not all
enjoying it. And again, what we're teaching is the foundations
(16:13):
of consent. Like we're waiting too late. If we start
talking about consent and kind of reading cues as teenagers,
we do these siblings is how we learn about consent. Right,
If I'm having a really good time on the trampoline
but my sibling is not, that's not consensual fun. We're
checking on them. We're changing the game to make sure
everyone's having fun.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Coming up after this short break, Gen shares more golden
nuggets of wisdom about how we can get our kids
to stop fighting. I've hit a really annoying stage of
parenting with my kids because.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
I've got stages zero to thirty nocause obviously you go.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
You know, when they're young, it's a squabble over toys.
Then it might be more physical. We're at the teen
and tween era, and because I'm a single mum and
there's three of us, it becomes very tit for tat,
and it becomes like I'm the soul and it's just
like one again the other pitting each other. And it's
about silly things like my hair's better. You know, it's
(17:14):
real teasing and barbs about the tearing. Its teasy, but
it's things that I just I can't stand it. So
as they're getting older and it's more complex, it's not
over a toy, how do we progress? So this is
the thing that I think is the real game changer
when it comes to what underlies a lot of persistent
or annoying or like that kind of sibling stuff where
(17:36):
it's not about I just see it, like they're being mean,
they're being nasty, and they're they're going for the low blow. Yeah,
Or you've got one sibling that says the sky's blue
and the other one's like, no, it's not.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
You're just to piss the other one off.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
You're like, oh, So the biggest game changer when it
comes to understanding why dore siblings fight, because we talked
about how kids are always seeking connection. The biggest way
to pull us in is sibling fighting. It's about us
and them. So it is one hundred percent about siblings
constantly jostling for, like seeking in that approval. Even as tweens,
(18:12):
even as teens, they're still jostling to like, Mum, I'm
the better one, or like whatever it is that's happening. Now,
that's not a conscious decision, Like even at fifteen, that's
not a conscious decision, like I know how to get
my mum's attention. Because if it was conscious you'd think, mate,
you're pissing me off, like you don't want this attention
from me, you're driving me crazy, and you're are.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
You a good human?
Speaker 2 (18:33):
So two things that I think changed the game. When
it's that persistent stuff, whether it is a three year
old picking on a baby unrelentingly, which we see a lot,
or it's a fourteen year old just putting down a
younger sibling or whatever constantly, like whichever it is. Number one,
it's about if we can realize it's more about us
and them and just fine ways to connect. So like,
(18:57):
just ten minutes of one on one, fully focused. I
just love you so much. I can't wait to be
with you. I love it when we get time together.
I love hearing about your favorite topic. I went and
joined my thirteen year old for ten minutes of playing Valorant.
I don't know if you know what that is, but
it's video Yeah, it's a video game, not my thing.
(19:17):
Ten minutes and the difference in his behavior so profound, right,
So number one connection.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Number two empathy.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
It sucks being the eldest, It sucks being the youngest,
It sucks being the middlest. It sucks when your brother
has more blueberries than you, or like, the reality is
it is hard. And as parents, our child says you
love him more than me. Essentially, when they're picking on
each other, what they're really saying is you love him
more than me and whatever.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
That's how they're just offloading these feelings.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
And if we can stop and go instead of of
course I love you both the same, and of course
you get the most thing, and we're just trying to
make everything even and make everything work.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
What if we just stop and go.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
I've been thinking about you, and sometimes I reckon, your
brother can be so annoying, and I reckon that must.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Be so hard some days. So are we allowed to
say that?
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Because this morning I was usually saying to my daughter,
he's just being a pest. And then I'm like, oh, gosh,
am I like feeding this narrative vehtstory because I.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Think it's a reality.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
And sometimes when there's different personalities, like sometimes you might
have one child who genuinely has a younger sibling.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
They wish was a bit different.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
What if we have a child with additional needs and
we've got a child that has to go under the
radar or kind of miss stuff sometimes because of the
demands of another child. And if we keep just saying,
you don't understand your brother has needs, you know, blah
blah blah, and sometimes we've got to stop and go,
I bet you wish your brother didn't have these needs.
And if you sometimes hate that your brother has needs,
(20:41):
I would get it. And it almost feels like we're
saying the unthinkable because we want them to be compassionate
and understand.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
But you're giving them permission to have a mission.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
And then we name it, we tame it, we bring
it out of the back of the brain, and often
it dissipates, Like you go, it must suck being the eldest.
You must hate that sometimes you feel responsible for in
my case, you know, three other brothers, or you have
to go without things, And I would get it if
some days you wish that was different.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Name it, and then actually that child feels.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Not only just seen and heard, but it dissipates that
issue a little bit, and often they feel better. Oh
my god, I feel like I'm a better parot already
because this advice you've given before, and it's about I
hear you. Yeah, that's your life, single beggest thing we
can do. I hear you, because in society we are
conditioned to push emotions away or down, or distract or
avoid or tap dance around them because this is the
(21:35):
way the world works and it's our training as humans.
And so we're trying to override that instinct to fix
this or teach our kids or solve it. And before
we do any of that, just hear them.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
And what can that look like?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
So when you see your kids that you know it's
starting to get heated, does it literally mean, hey, Banjo,
can you come over here? I've got I want to
I want to talk to you about you know, how
soccer was today?
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Like, is it literally like in that moment.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
When you can see it's about to start that you
take one and give them a minute to almost distract
them from where they're going. Yeah, So there's so many options.
One is you could like, okay and when possible, Let's
be honest, sometimes we don't have it in us to
do any of these, and we're going to do all
the wrong things and say shap Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
I'm going in with the right, the right. It's all
about the intent, right.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
But let's just think about it.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
So, one thing that's happening when we're feeling frustrated with
a sibling, like, if it's kind of just general this
is not going well, one of my kids is a
bit off or whatever, then what we want to.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Do is lower cortisol.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
So anything we can do that lowers cortisol in the house.
So you might just put on some silly music, or
you might make a joke, or you might join them
and fill all the cups.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
All at once, or you might grab one chart and go,
I really want.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Your help with a special project, or you might depends
what their love language is, and it sort of depends.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
We're trying to go.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
I can see this.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
I'm going to do a bit of preventative absolutely, But
often I think in the moment.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
Realistically, I don't catch that. A lot of us don't
catch that.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
It kind of does what it does, and we're having
to intervene in the fight.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
But if we can stop and go where we've.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Got a persistent particularly if it's one child and they
keep picking and picking and picking, that's when I'd be like, okay,
we need to stop one night when the kids are
in bed and go what am I going to do
tomorrow to really fill that child's cup? So then I
might go, hey, first thing in the morning, I've just
realized it's just you and me taking you to school
this morning. Do you want to go and get a
hot chocolate together. I just really want time with you.
(23:31):
I love it when I get time with you. You know,
those little things that we do make our kids feel
so amazing. Yeah, So it's not about waiting for it
to them to get to that point where they're pouring
out those you know, the background feelings and emotions. It's
like stepping in to almost prevent them and sometimes spotting,
Like sometimes you might have a morning and one child
is just like pick pick pick at a sibling and
(23:52):
you might kind of go, like, what we're always trying
to do is yes, kind of name or hear them,
but also kind of think, what is underneath this, what's
really happening here?
Speaker 3 (24:01):
What's really going on?
Speaker 2 (24:02):
So you see that child, they're upset with the way
you cut their toast, and then they pick pick pick
pick at.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
A sibling and you think hmmm, and you go up.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
You just rub their back and you go You're like,
you're having a bit of a hard day's day.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Brother's really annoying you.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
You can be annoying and it's the first day back
to school after the holidays. That can be tough, an't it?
And give them a squeeze. And you've just named two
big things. You've really gone.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
I see you. I see that, just so warm and fuzzy.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yes, if it's just your your peaceful voice, My god,
my kids would be like, where do I find a
mom like that?
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (24:43):
My gosh, your mornings and my mornings, I feel jen
look very different. But I'm gonna I feel like I'm
getting lots of hot tips. Oh look, my morning's probably
look a lot like she's got even more kids than
you team.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
I know that. What were we thinking?
Speaker 3 (24:59):
You know, it's the only funny like this morning.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
My eldest who does a lot of critiquing of my parenting, like,
you know, he sort of thinks I need to be
firmer with these younger children. Yeah anyway, okay, well maybe
he'll follow in your footsteps and be parenting it.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
So he's like, you know, you need to be fair
with these kids.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
But my third child got really worked up because he
was late for the bus.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
So he's just like and he's.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Yelling at my husband about giving him soy sauce for
his sushi rolls, right.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
So he's like, hurry dat, hurry, hurry, and he's.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Like screaming at my husband, which to us has grown
adults make sense because he's ten and he's trying to
catch a bus. So that's a lot for him. And
so he's being a good kid in our minds. And
the eldest is at the fridge and he's like, you
really don't need to carry on like that. There's no
need for that kind of dog because the eldest children
loved parent, and he's kind of like he.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Just shouldn't do that way.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Sticking up and you know again, I just sort of
came close to him and I kind of, you know,
like I can't rub his back because he's fifteen, he'd
stop it off. I went and I said, you know,
what do you think is going on there for him?
And he's just like because he's older, so I can
start to really sort of talk some more logic. I'm like,
what do you think is going on there for him?
And he's like, I don't know, he's being rude, and
I'm like, so he's ten and he's really worried about
(26:22):
catching the bus, and so he's like a bit heightened.
I sort of think you'd be the same.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Yeah, you know, so you can.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Did he step back and have a little reflection? I
think he did, Actually, I think he did. But that
would not have worked when he was ten. It's sort
of like he's getting to an age where you're like
and also, ps, dude, when you're running like no angel.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
So yeah, but look, if I had more time, I
would have said, yeah, it's frustrating seeing younger siblings talk
like that, and I appreciate your help, and it's hard
being the eldest and all of that stuff, and I
wonder what's going on for him. So if we can
start to narrate what do you think is going on
underneath that behavior, our kids do start to learn what's
happening for each.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Other as well.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Yeah that's so nice and making them kind of look
under the surface for each other.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
So for those of us who've been getting it wrong
in this, but would you say at this point to
be like, Okay, let's sit down and have a chat.
You know, I've been thinking about there's been a lot
of fights lately, and let's just have a bit of
a chat about some ground rules. And how we can
move forward. How do we do a reset? Yes, I
(27:29):
love a family meeting. I've recently had a big family
rule reset around screens. You know, I probably have to
have another one in a week because we'll all run
off track back, you know, when things run off track
with the way we're treating each other, the way we're
talking to each other. Let's sit down and talk about
these and get their input and if you can get
them all to agree on those three core rules.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
What are the core rules again?
Speaker 2 (27:50):
No hitting or hurting each other yourself, no damage to property,
no name calling. And I would add one more four rules.
When someone is crying or says stop, we stop and
we check if they're okay, yeah, okay, okay. So that's
four carruls, but there's more. You're not expecting that your
kids will just go Well, now that you've read those,
(28:12):
make sense them on the whiteboard and thanks mum, now
they're on the fridge.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
I'll just do it, no problem. I'm sure they're.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Going to need your help because their brains are still
developing til twenty five to twenty eight years of age.
They need you to step in and model it. So
when they break a rule, WHOA not going to let
you hit each other. I'm going to move you or
move you to keep you safe. I am here, I've
got you contain, and then empathy, why did we hear
what happened? That's the only way to stop kids from
(28:43):
hitting or hurting, because the alternative is.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
We do not in his family go to your room.
That's me. Were you in my house this morning?
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Okay, So in that scenario, and then, as you said earlier,
that just heightens all the intensity.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Yeah, so I don't like your kid goes.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
To their room.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Yeah, they may you say, come back when you can
say you're sorry. They may even come back and say
they're sorry, but here is what has not happened.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Well sorry. Then I'm like, well you're not really sorry.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
I know, And then nothing's happening.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
So we do all of that, it feels like we've
done something like at least I've taught you that it's okay.
But all our child's learn is like hide the hit, beau,
get better on it. Whereas if I stay with them
within reason, you can't always be completely there. But like, whoa, guys,
I'm here to help you sort this out because I've
(29:36):
got a fully developed prefrontal cortex. You guys, don't, I've
got you. I can contain you until we are calm again,
and then I'm going to go.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Looks like things went wrong here.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
What happened?
Speaker 3 (29:45):
And you might be with one and you go, I
get it.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
He's really annoying the way he keeps touching your good
lego set or whatever it is. Cali hit though, So
what are we going to do next time your brother
annoys you? We are hoping that with that repeated message
and with the practice over and over and over again,
they learn an alternative way to behave whereas if we
just put them in their room, Yes they go to
their room, Yes they learn to hide the hit from you,
(30:08):
but they haven't learned how to handle what is essentially
frustration tolerance. Yeah, when a sibling is annoying me, I'm
frustrated and if it gets too much, I'm going to
use my body.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
What are my other options?
Speaker 2 (30:21):
The tolerance is the ability to regulate through that frustration
and choose another option.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Oh my gosh, you's so wise.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Okay, but genuor can you please move in, even just
for a week, just so that I can have all
the modeling And then I can model the modeling well,
even on your Instagram, because I love watching all the
things on your Instagram page, and I'm like, it's so simple,
Yet why aren't I doing it?
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Like?
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Or it makes so much sense? How don't I know that?
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Like, because you know, our covert programming, what we were
taught in the first five years is the automatic programming.
So when we're trying to do this stuff, we're overriding
our in six And let me tell you, I get
it wrong all the time. And what's beautiful is my
kids know it so well now they get like, I
remember why it's driving my kids. I go, that's it,
There'll be no whatever, like a threat, you know, And
(31:11):
my kids go, I thought we didn't do threats and parnation.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
I did.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
One of them chime in and say, so, what's really
going on today? And I'm driving the car.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Yes, you're right, we don't. Fine, but you're right.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
It's like the triggers override the sense half the time.
And you're like, I know what I'm meant to be doing,
and I know this is not productive parenting, but you know,
you just need It's almost like we need to really
what is going on underneath you? For me two single
biggest things you can do to be a better parent
in these moments. Number one is self compassion, Be kind
to yourself, take care of yourself when you get it wrong.
(31:46):
As a parent, view that as geez, these kids are
hard and this is hard, and I'm doing the best
that I can, and I deserve like a choky or
something nice rather than I'm such a bad parent.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
Why am I getting this wrong?
Speaker 2 (31:58):
Because if you are nice to yourself and you are
compassionate to yourself, you're rewiring some of.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
That sort of hardness.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
And actually, when we're kinder to ourselves, that compassion flows
onto our kids. So when we can have that okay,
I'm doing the best that I can, and so is
my child. And then the second thing is knowing that
whenever we get it wrong, like it is totally okay.
Often my best breakthrough moments in my parenting have happened
when I have done not just one wrong thing, but
ten wrong things in a row, and I have gone
(32:26):
had to go to my child and say, WHOA, I
got that wrong. I'm really sorry, And it's in the
repair that often we shift so it's okay. It's meant
to be messy it's not meant to feel like you
know what you're doing. No one knows what they're doing.
And the other thing that I remember your advice that
I literally just it's in my brain and everyone needs
to hear, is that you only need to get it
(32:48):
right thirty correct of the time correct to praise a
good human. That's so on track, guys, particularly when it
comes to this naming of emotions or fully two feet
in empathy, Like I'm putting aside everything that is happening
in our world, in our life for me, everything to go.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
Ah, that sounds so hard.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Empathy, empathy. We only have to.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Do that with our kids thirty percent of time, and
in fact more is not better for kids.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
If you were empathizing.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
With constantly, if you're sitting on the floor every time
your child had a struggle, I mean none of us
would be here this morning, like you know, we wouldn't
have left the house, We'd still be on the floor empathize.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
It could just be flat always and.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
They would be very emotional, but not very resilient.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
So it's really important that kids get an experience it both.
Sometimes we have to just like you know, your child's
having a hard time, you know, getting off the swing
and you're like, yeah, but we got to get going.
We're late, so you're just gonna get get going and
pick them up and put them in the car.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
And off we go.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
That's okay, Jenmure, thank you so much to all day,
literally all day. And I'm not joking about the moving
that offer is there? Would you be my sister? Couldn't
we all? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Those sister wives, I've got it going.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Jen has always has such a pleasure to have on
the show, and hopefully all our listeners have taken away
as much as we have. Thanks guys, and we're going
to share a link in the show notes of how
people can hear how to build a universe more beautiful
Jen Wisdom there.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Thank you for listening to this glorious mess.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
We hope you enjoyed the episode and the episode was
produced by Tina Matlov with audio production by Jacob Brown.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
To see you next week, I'm
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