June 20, 2025 • 30 mins
Should partners (and exes) automatically be each other’s parenting hype squad? We all know relationships are... complex and the answer to this question isn't straightforward — as Jessie Stephens and Amelia Lester discover on this week's show.
Plus, the Ellen Pompeo quote that made our hosts seriously question if mums can ever give 100% at work.
And, is letting your kid play with makeup a feminist failure... or just a rainy day win?
This week’s reccos:
Amelia's kids are obsessed with a paper magazine (yes, they still exist) and Jessie’s found a genius fix for toddler meltdowns that doesn't require wine or Wi-Fi.
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WHAT TO LISTEN TO NEXT:
- Parenting Out Loud Ep 1: Grandparents — It's Time For Your Performance Review
- Parenting Out Loud Ep 2: The Death Of The Dining Table & 'Outdated' Schooling
- The Lie Working Mothers Tell
- How To Build A Universe: Into The Jungle We Go
- Not To Be Rude, But WTF Is "Solo Dadding"?
- Me After You: Work: Nine to Five Just Became 24/7 (FLAG RUTH - podcast is 5yrs old )
WHAT TO READ:
- 9 celeb parents on what it's like co-parenting with a famous ex.
- Victoria Beckham shared her makeup 'rules' for Harper. Here's what 7 mums had to say about theirs.
- Makeup at four, pierced ears at five: Parents share their ‘age rules’ for their kids.
- Kim Kardashian West has shared her two makeup rules for daughter North West and... what.
- "There will always be something left to do." What no one tells you about being a working mother.
- Ellen Pompeo is one of TV's best-paid actors. Here's what her life away from the spotlight looks like.
- 'Joshua Jackson spoke about the difficulty of co-parenting. I have feedback.'
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges the
traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is
recorded on.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Hello and welcome to Parenting Out Loud. I am Jess
Stevens and I am joined by Amelia Lester, and we're
here to talk about some of the stories that dominated
the week, because if parents are thinking about it, we
are talking about it. Welcome Amelia. How was your week?
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Look? It's been stressful. I'm tracking a parcel on the
Australia Post app. Have you been there? Have I been there? Yep.
I decided I needed to buy a dress for a
very important upcoming social event. And you know how whenever
you need a piece of clothing for something you can
never find it. No, So I went online and I
bought a dress. I've never tried it on before, and
(01:03):
it may or may not work. It probably won't work,
given how online shopping turns out for me. And all
I can think of is when is this dress going
to get to me? I left the house this morning
for like half an hour. Guess what happened? It a right,
So now I have to make the trip into the
post office for it.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Which is strictly only open when you are at work
or on today's show?
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Should parents talk each other up?
Speaker 1 (01:28):
More?
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Co parenting and how you talk about your current or
ex partner is everywhere at the moment, and we want
to know what are the rules. Plus apparently it's okay
to let your kids play with makeup. Amelia is armed
with a feminist defense and I am open minded but skeptical.
And Ellen Pompei's quote that had us asking if mothers
can ever really give one hundred percent at work? But first,
(01:52):
in case you missed it, there has been a question
dominating TikTok recently, which is how much do you pay
for kids' haircut? Amelia, what's your gut response?
Speaker 1 (02:01):
This is a difficult one for me. I'm a curly
haired girl and I have curly head children, and I
know that my curly head listeners will understand. And why
we can't give simple answers to questions about haircuts. I'm sorry,
I know you asked for a gut response. It's not
gonna happen. I need to tell you a story. Okay,
So I don't know where to get my kid's haircut.
(02:22):
I went to a fancy salon in my neighborhood that
was recommended on my class group chat. Okay, we go in.
The first sign that this is not the right place
for us to be is that the children are given
a biscotti which I'm pretty sure was flavored with aniseed.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Oh wow. Were they offered a latte?
Speaker 1 (02:43):
They were probably offered a mimosa. I don't think an
aniseed biscotti is really the flavor profile of kids snacks.
But I was like, okay, this is maybe not a
good decision. But anyway, they went off to get their
hair washed at the sink. I have a question about that.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Is that worth it to get the hair washed?
Speaker 1 (02:59):
You know what, I don't have an answer for you.
And here's why I'm sitting eating my aniseed biscotti, which
was oddly bitter, I have to say. And then the
very nice hairdresser comes back to me. She touched me
on the shoulder and she whispers in my ear, what
do you think it was? Was it a sweet? Nothing?
Was it? Would you like more annisey piscotti?
Speaker 2 (03:17):
I think that she's found she's found something, like.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Found something living and it was lie. So we ran
out and now I have to cross the street every
time I walk past that salon.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Okay, what happened is that this woman named Millie was
on TikTok and she took her daughter to the hairdresser.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
She didn't ask how much.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
She was expecting thirty forty bucks right, and she was
charged one hundred and twenty, which is that's more than
I would expect my haircut to be. And so this
got everyone talking about how much it should be. You
raise a good point, which is the risk hairdressers are
taking when they touch children on the head is just
so so high, like the chances that they have lies.
(03:58):
I remember distinctly as a kid going in. Things were
found not good. They always stop the haircut. It's very sad.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
But we asked They probably put photos of us out
the back, so like warn them if we ever came back.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
In they ever come in.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
We went to out louders and we were like, what
is the cost of a haircut that you would expect today?
The average was about forty two dollars. But there was
this story from an out louder who moved to Melbourne.
She took her two children to a chain hairdresser, budget hairdresser,
not fancy Nobiscotti. They didn't ask the price before, and
as she left and went to pay for it, it
(04:34):
was one hundred and seventy dollars for both of them,
a trim and a wash, and she said, I nearly died.
Needless to say, my mother in law will be cutting
their hair from now on. My mum took my niece
to get her first haircut the other day.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
And did you know that just Cuts does under twelve
months free first haircut.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
I did not, And they give it to you in.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
A little envelope. My uncle is the founder of just Cut.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
This is such a heartwarming story. We hear all these
things about companies squeezing profit margins. Just Cuts is out
there getting out little bits of hair and envelops exactly.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
I grew up with my uncle doing the like bolcat
or whatever, and now he started us cuts and ended
up being quite the success story.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
But that is his rule.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
So you go to just Cuts and you say, even
if they're five or I can just be like, yeah,
in twelve months, they just very highly developed. Your kids
could passes eleven months old. Surely I think that's a compliment.
Is building up your co parent in the eyes of
your children. Part of being a good parent. I have
to admit I had literally never thought about this before.
(05:39):
I read a substack about it recently, and now I
cannot stop thinking about it. This was in the Cuts
Brooding newsletter by Catherine Geezu Morton. She asked this question,
and I was reminded of it because co parenting and
how to talk about it has been in the news. First,
I'm sure everyone saw that Debrale Furnace released a statement.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
To the media following her divorce from Hugh Jackman. She
said her heart went out to everyone who has traversed
the traumatic journey of betrayal. They have two children together.
The second was also recently. Joe Jonas, who shares two
daughters with Sophie Turner, talked about their beautiful dynamic on
Jay Shetty's podcast, which I guess everyone listens to except me.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
Yes correct.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
He said, having an incredible mom Sophie for these girls
is like a dream come true. He said, whether you're
still legally attached to your co parent or not, I
think that this is a really interesting question to explore
because every time I ask someone, it inevitably brings up
memories and thoughts about their childhoods and how they're bringing
their childhood experiences to parenting now, Jesse, which is to say,
(06:44):
have you thought about this? Do you? Gus Lucaup.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
I had not thought about it until you brought it up,
and it made me think about an experience I had
recently where I realized that we had stopped thanking each
other for seemingly tiny things like unstacking the Dishwasherora. Not
all the time, but there are certain acts that you
do that I don't care if you've been together for
five minutes or fifty years. You should thank each other,
(07:09):
Like when some one makes you a coffee and puts
it in front of you. It's like such a basic
human act. When you're raising a child or children, I
think that most of what they learn is through example
and through modeling. So you kind of go, oh, we're
treating each other not in an ideal way here, So
I've kind of reintroduced the idea of thank you.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
How does it make you feel?
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I found that when we didn't say thank you, it
was like it was just this expectation rather than we
were two adults helping each other out. There's a book
called How Not to Hate your Husband After Kids?
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Have you heard about this book, No tell me about it.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
She as a journalist, and she wrote this book after
she realized how much she hated us.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
It's a great title, is such.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
A good title, And she found that ninety five percent
of the couple she spoke to said that they really
struggled after having a baby, and that in fact, your
relationship satisfaction goes down. So, whether it's one baby, apparently
the more kids, the more the relationship satisfaction goes down.
And a lot of people will have memories in their
(08:15):
household of fighting, of put downs, of people being passive
aggressive towards each other. And I think sometimes it gives
license to the children to either adopt that or see
a parent in a less respectful light. So I thought
this was such a pertinent point at a time when
we are talking more than ever about division of the
(08:37):
domestic load, which gives way to a lot of conversations.
Were constantly over communicating, sometimes being like I did this
your turn, blah blah blah, point scoring. I'm very good
at point scoring. But yeah, I thought that's such a
good point that at a time when we're doing that,
we've also got a model good language.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah, I think that's a great point. And in this
Brooding newsletter, she asks some people to explain why they
made a habit of praising their co parent, Because the
interesting thing is she did this quick survey and ask
people if they did it, and a lot of people
felt the same as us. They had never thought about
it before, but then given the proposition, well do you
praise your partner or your co parent, they started to
(09:15):
think that they probably should. So here are some themes
that emerged from people who were doing it. Many parents
were trying to lead by example. They wanted to teach
their kids the importance of giving and receiving love in
the form of praise, which I think is a really
nice idea. This was interesting. Some felt like they were
kind of building the scaffolding in case their relationship hit
a rough patch. So it's like, if we bank some
(09:36):
goodwill and gratitude now and create that strong bond through that,
then when we hit rocky times, we can kind of
draw on the bank account of praise and gratitude. And
then another one was interesting, This is a little bit
like what you were saying, trying to build a family
culture that's different from the one that they grew up in.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
The author I was talking about before, she said we
save our best selves for our children, and I don't
think that's always the best example for the children, right
to see that you speak to them in a certain way.
My patience for Luna is beyond anything I imagined I
could ever have, But my patience for Luca has severely reduced.
So while you've got a sick baby who's screaming, and
(10:16):
you go, I can't ever take my frustration out on her.
I've seen moments where we do it to each.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Other, like can I think further frustration?
Speaker 2 (10:23):
And I think that that's inevitable to an extent. But
I really liked the idea that we've heard this reluctance.
And there's kind of this conservative criticism of divorce and
the impact that might have on kids, But the everyday
verbal japs that you might have and even a loving
marriage can't be good either. It's an interesting new way
to look at it.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
There's also some people who are reluctant to engage in
this habit because they feel like it's adopting a bit
of a kind of retro mother worship dynamic, you know,
like mother does everything for us, isn't she amazing and
kind of emphasizing the idea of the all giving mother.
I think it's also hard to receive praise sometimes because
(11:04):
you get suspicious about maybe why someone's doing it. But
I feel like what a lot of people who were
surveyed here said was they started doing it and then
they noticed changes, which is why I asked you how
you were feeling about doing it. Once you've established a habit,
people say that it makes their children treat them better too,
because they're modeling how to be in a civil give
(11:27):
and take relationship. And the author of Brooding said that
once she started both accepting and giving out praise to
her co parent, her children started asking her how her
day was more.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Often, oh, my goodness, unheard of. It also gave me
a lot more compassionate understanding for the celebrity statements that
we often hear, so the conscious uncoupling of Gwyneth and Chris,
for example, or the mutual respect that we often hear,
and we roll our eyes because we think it seems inauthentic.
But I really respect parents who go we're going to uncouple,
(12:02):
but we are going to speak about each other respectfully always,
because when we don't that doesn't end well.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Yeah. Another good example of that is Bruce Willison de
me Moore. Demi Moore has spoken openly about how they'll
always be a family. They've been divorced for some time now,
just in a different form. I do want to, though,
leave a bit of space for Deborah Ley to express yourself.
I think to me that's a slightly different point from
whether you're making a habit of praising your partner, because
(12:30):
I think there's something refreshing about Deborah le Furnace being
honest about what happened.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
I think you can also praise someone as a parent
while also acknowledging that maybe they weren't.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
The perfect husband. Great point.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Just let your kids play with makeup. That's the title
of a column in The Atlantic I stumbled upon recently
which argues that your daughter or son playing with makeup
is not a red flag. Apparently, when kids imitate applying lipstick,
it's developmentally normal and a really healthy part of role playing.
In fact, our fear of it says something about how
(13:07):
we put down girly culture. We don't bristle in the
same way when boys play with cars. For example, Emelia,
I feel like the feminist books I've read told me
that this is very bad and that I'm socializing my
daughter to think she needs to alter her appearance in
order to be considered beautiful, which is her currency as
a female in the world. And she doesn't see her
dad putting on makeup? Am I a cog in the
(13:30):
patriarchy machine?
Speaker 1 (13:31):
I am so excited to talk about this because I
want to mount a feminist case for makeup. Oh my God,
ready to go.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
The more you lean into makeup as a form of artifice,
as a toy, as a fun thing, the less it
becomes this mysterious necessity of adult womanhood. I think the
more mystique you build around it, and if you keep
your children away from the fun little gold tubes, and
I mean, why wouldn't children want to play with this stuff?
It is essentially like a box of crayons, accept more
(14:00):
fun and expensive. The more you're making it seem like
something that only adult women can indulge in or play with.
And I think it's really important that a we make
clear that makeup is fun. It is not a necessity.
It is not something that you need to hide yourself
or camouflage yourself. It's just a fun thing. And then two,
(14:20):
the more we decouple it from the idea of it's
just something used by women, so girls and boys are
attracted to the bright colors of makeup, let them play
with it. The more we demystify, I think, the less
power and importance is placed on it as a necessary
ritual of being a woman.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
You make a really good point because playing with your
appearance is a developmental milestone. So there's a recognizing in
the mirror. Then having control over your appearance or knowing
that you can manipulate it or choose what you wear,
is something that every kid is going to go through, right,
So I understand embracing that. What I struggle with is
(15:01):
the way in which brands have got their claws into it.
There are some makeup companies. There's one in the US.
It is literally marketed to three year olds three plus,
and they have used images or like cartoons or beloved
toys that my daughter plays with to go this is
(15:22):
for you to make it look fun and exciting. And
as much as makeup is fun and I love makeup,
I would be lying if I said it didn't also
play a role in feeling as though I need to
present in a certain way to the world. Obviously, if
I do television, I sit in a chair for an hour,
whereas the male co host gets ten minutes. There are
(15:43):
things like that that we can't reconcile in a home necessarily.
But there is something deeply unequal and patriarchal about the
practice of makeup.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Right, Yeah, damn it, you've just remembered in old case.
I think you've raised some really good points. There's something
strangely circular about marketing makeup to three year olds, in
the sense that why a lot of women wear makeup
is because we are taught that it makes us look younger,
and so we put blush on our cheeks because as
(16:11):
you get older, you lose color in your cheeks, and
we put mascara on because as you get older, where
do your lashes go?
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Side note all pigment.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
And because you're losing pigment, that's why you're applying more
makeup as you get older. So the thinking goes. So
there's something so odd about then, teaching three year olds
to look young.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Yeah, and to market to them. I have seen videos
come up of twelve year olds using anti aging products
like that's been absorbed. I mean the whole skincare trend
is unbelievable and has literally put a rocket up the
markets of skincare and makeup. And there was this example
(16:54):
a few years ago of a makeup brand doing a
back to school event and it was like, come along,
will teach you to do your makeup for school and
you can get redeemable products from that. And they said
browse and skin like. They weren't going, You're going to
wear eyeeshadow to school, but I just went. Know something
about that makes me deeply uncomfortable. I think that that
(17:15):
is something I'd like to put off for as long
as I can.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Well. And there's also an interesting question here, do you
feel differently about kids using makeup versus kids using skincare,
because we've heard skincare companies tell us, oh, it's like
brushing your teeth. You've got to start early. We've got
to create the healthy habits. I always think, I don't know.
I didn't know that I was meant to wash my
(17:40):
face until I was eighteen. Pretty much, No, it's fine.
It hasn't fallen off.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
The idea that you need a routine. I mean, that's
just like textbook capitalism. You get them younger and younger,
and then you get them into the routine that totally
makes sense. But other than using a terrible exfoliant that
took off layers.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Of my skin, you cut one.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Yeah, fourteen, I loved that and it was three dollars great,
it smelled great, but we know it wasn't doing good things,
and in fact, it was probably very bad for the environment.
But the idea that you've got girls coming up and
asking their mum for these products and then you, as
a parent have to say no, even though look at
my cupboard, is like a really awkward hypocrisy because the
(18:21):
reality is as much as we might have our makeup
laying around and boys will play with it and girls
are playing with it, it's not seven year old boys that
are saying, can I go and buy a lip gloss from?
Speaker 1 (18:32):
No, it's not. There's a part of me that feels
like the makeup is more okay than the skincare.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
It feels more playful.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
It's more playful. It's because makeup it looks like toys.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
That's so true, and there is something inherently, I believe,
artistic about it. It's playful because of the colors and
because you can experiment and because you can make your
face look different, whether it's prettier or not, but like
you can just play with it, whereas the skincare thing
is a whole other ballgame.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
I think so. And I think that another difference is
that makeup is something that only adult women really are
expected to wear. Right, if you don't wear makeup as
an adult woman, unfortunately you were perceived as making a
choice not to wear makeup. It's not the default. The
default right now in twenty twenty five is that if
(19:27):
you leave the house not wearing makeup, that's a decision
you made to deviate from normal. And I just want
to break that down as much as possible, And paradoxically,
I think the way to do that is just to
teach kids, boys, girls that it's just a fun thing
to play with rather than a tool or a piece
(19:47):
of armor.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
There is a quote by Gray's Anatomy star Ellen Pompeo
that I've been thinking about for months. Earlier this year,
she was a guest on Alex Cooper's Call Her Daddy podcast,
and she said, you cannot be a mother and have
children and give one hundred percent to your job. You
can't because there's a part of you that's somewhere else.
You split into different pieces. You're no longer just you.
(20:09):
You've been split into different pieces. Well, that might sound
like a negative thing. The other thing she went on
to say was, you know what that does? It makes
you more soulful, It makes you richer, It makes you funnier,
it makes you feel more, makes you more empathetic, it
makes you angrier. She talks about the range of emotions
you have, and you will be yourself times one thousand, Amelia.
(20:31):
Do you think it's true that you cannot give one
hundred percent to your job once you become a mother?
Speaker 1 (20:35):
My popular opinion on this is that you can't. I
think Allan's right. I think it is really hard to
give one hundred percent to anything once you've become a mother,
because you're always thinking about if you have fruit for
the lunchboxes tomorrow, and do you need to wash this?
And what are they go?
Speaker 3 (20:51):
What's your definition?
Speaker 2 (20:51):
No, I feel like this is a definitional thing of like,
you can still show up to work and do the
best work and the quality of work you did before
you had babies. But does one hundred percent mean give
my whole self?
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Well, I'm going to add a caveat, which is you're
not giving one hundred percent, but you're getting a whole
lot more done. It's a snake's and lightert situation. You're
never fully focused, but I do think you become more
efficient because you have to be.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
So do you think you're worse at your job since
you had babies?
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Oh that's such a good question, Jesse. Do you have
an answer.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
I don't think it has impacted how I do my job.
I initially saw this and went, oh, this can be weaponized.
Like I was a little bit like Ellen, it's bad
for the call. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
My second thought was that Gray's is still going on.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
I had no idea.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
I had no idea, but I thought, I don't want
some CEO thinking moms aren't valuable in the workforce, or
they've always got their head somewhere else, or they're chaotic.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
I don't, I.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Don't, and I don't think that's true. Like I always
think of this quote, which I thought was from Gwyneth Paltrow,
but I believe it's actually from Elise Loanan, who used
to be the chief content officer at Goop with Gwyneth Paltrow,
and she said that at Goop they always looked to
hire moms because they said moms make for good hires.
The amount that I can accomplish in twenty minutes is
(22:14):
truly shocking to me, and that is true. I do
feel like my brain now is always racing along, and
I'm brushing my teeth thinking about something that I need
to do for work and something I need to do
for the kids, whereas before I might have just been
brushing my teeth thinking some nice thoughts about what I
was going to have for dinner.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Yeah, there was a great quote by a philosopher named
Agnes Khaled who says giving birth to a baby is
literally splitting intwo and it is not always clear which
one your eye goes with, Like it is a case
of My mum always said that the super power she
wanted was to be in two places at once. It's
his desperation to be in two places at once, which
is a really new thing.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
I don't have that desperation really now that my kids
are at school. I'm very happy that they're at school
and that I'm at work, so I don't feel bifurcated
in that way. I just feel like my brain is
always thinking about multiple things in a way that it
wasn't before.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
So there was this article in The Cut last year
by Anastasia Berg that was called what if motherhood isn't
transformative at all?
Speaker 3 (23:15):
Did she read this?
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (23:17):
No, it was so interesting, she said. We're often told
that becoming a parent will alter one's identity. For me,
the change never came. And she says, I had my baby,
I'm looking around, I'm asking the same questions. I have
the same friends, the same problems, and I'm interested in
the same petty gossip. And I wondered if we talk
about motherhood sometimes in such absolutes, as though there is
(23:40):
this universal experience of becoming a mother and some things
that you say, you go, oh my goodness, I feel
so sane about this very specific human experience. But I
sit somewhere in between these two. It's like, I don't
know if I do feel like I'm a completely different
person who's a different person at work than I was
before I had a baby. And it was like afterwards,
(24:04):
I remember walking around and going, oh, I was so
worried I'd have a totally different identity. I still feel
like myself I never had that identity crisis. Maybe I've
had like work crisis time crisis, but like I have
felt like Jesse the whole way through.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
I'm doing everything i can at work to prove that
I'm not a different person, and I'm almost swinging to
the opposite extreme. So, for instance, I think a lot
of my colleagues at work do not know that I
have children, and I kind of like it that way.
I very much like to categorize the different parts of
my life and keep them separate.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
They're going to be so confused about why you're hosting
this podcast, Familia. They're gonna be like, why is she
on a parenting oult?
Speaker 1 (24:45):
I'm going to be confused. I just don't like to
talk about it at work. I think it's because I'm
sensitive to the idea of, oh, she's always talking about
her kids, and I remember that before I had kids,
I would be resentful of mothers who left work early
to pick their kids up from school. I'd roll my eyes.
(25:06):
I'd say, they're not working as hard as I am.
Now I know that's not the case, because I know
that they're picking them up from school and then they're
going home and they're doing a second shift. Yeah, but
I'm doing everything I can to prove that I am
the same person as I was for four kids. And
maybe it's a little exhausting. It doesn't seem like you
were working that hard to keep that.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
No, I still feel like the same person, and I
think my definition of one hundred percent has changed.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
I reckon that's what it is, Okay, Tommy.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
It's like, one hundred percent doesn't mean that you're in
the office for twelve hours. And if there was an
opportunity to come up tonight before Luna, I would have
probably leaned into it, and now I can't, which is
totally fine.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
But that doesn't mean that the projects that.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
I choose to do I don't put full, unabashed effort
into like I still absolutely do. It's just maybe I
do less projects.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
You thinking in the back of your head about whether
Luna will eat frozen peas for dinner. Be honest, I'm
actually not.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Okay, well, I think that my brain might be broken.
I think I'm actually quite good, and I know this
is something you're not meant to say. In twenty twenty five.
I'm very good at focus. I look at it like iPhone,
do not disturbon, do not disturb and look sometimes, especially
if she's sick, I find that really hard. I find
it hard to be or if she's been upset or whatever.
But you know, Maya talks about ADHD and her experience
(26:23):
with the way her brain works, and I always think
my brain is a complete opposite. Like I feel as
though I can sit down, focus, I'm here when I'm here,
and I'm there when I'm there. I feel like I
can do that. It's time for our recommendations of the week, Amelia.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
What have you got? I came home the other day
check the mail and there was a National Geographic Kids
Magazine in the mail, and I thought, what a thoughtful
gift from sort of benevolent care of my children in
our orbit, who just thought they needed some education. And
I asked my partner if you knew anything about it.
He told me, you got a deal through McDonald's for it.
(26:56):
So that's why we're now subscribed to National Geographic Kids
Magazine mini magazine. He goes to McDonald's a lot. I
think they have some kind of VIP experience where you
get free magazine subscriptions. Anyway, I've been delighted by this product.
A couple of reasons why I love it. It's a
little kid's magazine with puzzles and weird facts.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
So it's written four kids.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
It's written four kids, it comes every month, and it's
got lots of good photos in it of weird insects.
I love that about it. But a young person literally
asked me the other day, someone who works at mom
and Mia, what a magazine was, and I paused for
a second, so I figured I should probably explain on
this podcast for anyone who doesn't know. I used to
work with a boss at a magazine who described magazines
(27:41):
as the ultimate technology. They never run out of batteries,
you can fold them under your arm, and they don't
require a USB cord. What else could you want from anything? True?
And it turns out I can't believe I'm having to
explain this, but I think in twenty twenty five I do.
The great thing about magazines is you can take them
to a cafe or to a sports game. You do
(28:02):
not require a power point, and then you can just
entertain a child with this most old of technologies.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Throw it in the backseat when they're winging.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Yes, gather around and listen to the law of magazines. Anyway,
I also have one other thing to tell you, which
is that a pangolan's tongue can be up to seventy
one centimeters in length, and that's almost as long as
its body.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
So that's fascinating.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
See, these are things that we should all know. This
is why I love having kids around, because they're full
of fun.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Facts, and the National Geographic for Kids will teach you
these things.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
My recommendation is very, very basic, Amelia, when you were
in the baby baby trenches, did you ever play.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
The Happy Song? No? I don't know what that is. Okay.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
I worry that people haven't heard of a happy song
when it's the only hack. So do you know that
artist image and Hate? I don't know any okay, image
and Hate. Did you ever watch the OC? No, Amelia,
I thought you're a millennial.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
I'm an elder millennial. I'm waiting magazines.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Image Heape is this person who wrote like actual good
adult music. But she has written this song. I don't
know when. It is called the happy Song, and it
is designed to make babies stop crying.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
It's like I fell, I say.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
It was designed to make babies.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
I was like Bessie, No, it's the opposite.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
You'll put that on and it's not arousing at all.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
It's like got.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Little weird little sounds, and the tone of her voice,
in the tone of the sounds is meant to do
something to okay crying. Right, So I saw this on TikTok,
I think before I had Luna, and so every time
she's crying in a car or whatever, I put on
a happy song. I reckon, it's got eighty five percent success, right,
it is really really good.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
This reminds me of a bonus recommendation I have. Oh,
there is a jewel album of Lala bish.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Jewel as in yeah, yeah, yeah, the.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Lyrics anyway, it's lallabies. And if you have kids who
are small and who nap in the car, which obviously
I would never have done because kids require good sleep hygen.
But you know, hypothetically, if they were napping in the car,
you put it on. Children literally cannot get through the
first track of the album without falling asleep.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
There needs to be like a handout at the hospital
that tells you these things like this. People haven't heard
of it, And I'm like, even at nearly two, if
she's losing it, I will put on and she'll go
no happy song because.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
She knows it.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Wow. But then she's happy.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
But then she's like, damn it, I've stopped crying.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Does it make you happy?
Speaker 2 (30:31):
It makes me happy if she stops crying. But the
sound of it I now associate with desperation. So in
a lot of ways, it's like, I will be so
happy when I never hear it again. That is all
we have time for on Parenting out Loud today. Our
MoMA Mia studios are styled with furniture from Fenton and Fenton.
Visit Fenton and Fenton dot com dot au and we
(30:53):
will see you next Saturday. Bye.
You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges the
traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is
recorded on.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Hello and welcome to Parenting Out Loud. I am Jess
Stevens and I am joined by Amelia Lester, and we're
here to talk about some of the stories that dominated
the week, because if parents are thinking about it, we
are talking about it. Welcome Amelia. How was your week?
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Look? It's been stressful. I'm tracking a parcel on the
Australia Post app. Have you been there? Have I been there? Yep.
I decided I needed to buy a dress for a
very important upcoming social event. And you know how whenever
you need a piece of clothing for something you can
never find it. No, So I went online and I
bought a dress. I've never tried it on before, and
(01:03):
it may or may not work. It probably won't work,
given how online shopping turns out for me. And all
I can think of is when is this dress going
to get to me? I left the house this morning
for like half an hour. Guess what happened? It a right,
So now I have to make the trip into the
post office for it.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Which is strictly only open when you are at work
or on today's show?
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Should parents talk each other up?
Speaker 1 (01:28):
More?
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Co parenting and how you talk about your current or
ex partner is everywhere at the moment, and we want
to know what are the rules. Plus apparently it's okay
to let your kids play with makeup. Amelia is armed
with a feminist defense and I am open minded but skeptical.
And Ellen Pompei's quote that had us asking if mothers
can ever really give one hundred percent at work? But first,
(01:52):
in case you missed it, there has been a question
dominating TikTok recently, which is how much do you pay
for kids' haircut? Amelia, what's your gut response?
Speaker 1 (02:01):
This is a difficult one for me. I'm a curly
haired girl and I have curly head children, and I
know that my curly head listeners will understand. And why
we can't give simple answers to questions about haircuts. I'm sorry,
I know you asked for a gut response. It's not
gonna happen. I need to tell you a story. Okay,
So I don't know where to get my kid's haircut.
(02:22):
I went to a fancy salon in my neighborhood that
was recommended on my class group chat. Okay, we go in.
The first sign that this is not the right place
for us to be is that the children are given
a biscotti which I'm pretty sure was flavored with aniseed.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Oh wow. Were they offered a latte?
Speaker 1 (02:43):
They were probably offered a mimosa. I don't think an
aniseed biscotti is really the flavor profile of kids snacks.
But I was like, okay, this is maybe not a
good decision. But anyway, they went off to get their
hair washed at the sink. I have a question about that.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Is that worth it to get the hair washed?
Speaker 1 (02:59):
You know what, I don't have an answer for you.
And here's why I'm sitting eating my aniseed biscotti, which
was oddly bitter, I have to say. And then the
very nice hairdresser comes back to me. She touched me
on the shoulder and she whispers in my ear, what
do you think it was? Was it a sweet? Nothing?
Was it? Would you like more annisey piscotti?
Speaker 2 (03:17):
I think that she's found she's found something, like.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Found something living and it was lie. So we ran
out and now I have to cross the street every
time I walk past that salon.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Okay, what happened is that this woman named Millie was
on TikTok and she took her daughter to the hairdresser.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
She didn't ask how much.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
She was expecting thirty forty bucks right, and she was
charged one hundred and twenty, which is that's more than
I would expect my haircut to be. And so this
got everyone talking about how much it should be. You
raise a good point, which is the risk hairdressers are
taking when they touch children on the head is just
so so high, like the chances that they have lies.
(03:58):
I remember distinctly as a kid going in. Things were
found not good. They always stop the haircut. It's very sad.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
But we asked They probably put photos of us out
the back, so like warn them if we ever came back.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
In they ever come in.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
We went to out louders and we were like, what
is the cost of a haircut that you would expect today?
The average was about forty two dollars. But there was
this story from an out louder who moved to Melbourne.
She took her two children to a chain hairdresser, budget hairdresser,
not fancy Nobiscotti. They didn't ask the price before, and
as she left and went to pay for it, it
(04:34):
was one hundred and seventy dollars for both of them,
a trim and a wash, and she said, I nearly died.
Needless to say, my mother in law will be cutting
their hair from now on. My mum took my niece
to get her first haircut the other day.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
And did you know that just Cuts does under twelve
months free first haircut.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
I did not, And they give it to you in.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
A little envelope. My uncle is the founder of just Cut.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
This is such a heartwarming story. We hear all these
things about companies squeezing profit margins. Just Cuts is out
there getting out little bits of hair and envelops exactly.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
I grew up with my uncle doing the like bolcat
or whatever, and now he started us cuts and ended
up being quite the success story.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
But that is his rule.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
So you go to just Cuts and you say, even
if they're five or I can just be like, yeah,
in twelve months, they just very highly developed. Your kids
could passes eleven months old. Surely I think that's a compliment.
Is building up your co parent in the eyes of
your children. Part of being a good parent. I have
to admit I had literally never thought about this before.
(05:39):
I read a substack about it recently, and now I
cannot stop thinking about it. This was in the Cuts
Brooding newsletter by Catherine Geezu Morton. She asked this question,
and I was reminded of it because co parenting and
how to talk about it has been in the news. First,
I'm sure everyone saw that Debrale Furnace released a statement.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
To the media following her divorce from Hugh Jackman. She
said her heart went out to everyone who has traversed
the traumatic journey of betrayal. They have two children together.
The second was also recently. Joe Jonas, who shares two
daughters with Sophie Turner, talked about their beautiful dynamic on
Jay Shetty's podcast, which I guess everyone listens to except me.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
Yes correct.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
He said, having an incredible mom Sophie for these girls
is like a dream come true. He said, whether you're
still legally attached to your co parent or not, I
think that this is a really interesting question to explore
because every time I ask someone, it inevitably brings up
memories and thoughts about their childhoods and how they're bringing
their childhood experiences to parenting now, Jesse, which is to say,
(06:44):
have you thought about this? Do you? Gus Lucaup.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
I had not thought about it until you brought it up,
and it made me think about an experience I had
recently where I realized that we had stopped thanking each
other for seemingly tiny things like unstacking the Dishwasherora. Not
all the time, but there are certain acts that you
do that I don't care if you've been together for
five minutes or fifty years. You should thank each other,
(07:09):
Like when some one makes you a coffee and puts
it in front of you. It's like such a basic
human act. When you're raising a child or children, I
think that most of what they learn is through example
and through modeling. So you kind of go, oh, we're
treating each other not in an ideal way here, So
I've kind of reintroduced the idea of thank you.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
How does it make you feel?
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I found that when we didn't say thank you, it
was like it was just this expectation rather than we
were two adults helping each other out. There's a book
called How Not to Hate your Husband After Kids?
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Have you heard about this book, No tell me about it.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
She as a journalist, and she wrote this book after
she realized how much she hated us.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
It's a great title, is such.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
A good title, And she found that ninety five percent
of the couple she spoke to said that they really
struggled after having a baby, and that in fact, your
relationship satisfaction goes down. So, whether it's one baby, apparently
the more kids, the more the relationship satisfaction goes down.
And a lot of people will have memories in their
(08:15):
household of fighting, of put downs, of people being passive
aggressive towards each other. And I think sometimes it gives
license to the children to either adopt that or see
a parent in a less respectful light. So I thought
this was such a pertinent point at a time when
we are talking more than ever about division of the
(08:37):
domestic load, which gives way to a lot of conversations.
Were constantly over communicating, sometimes being like I did this
your turn, blah blah blah, point scoring. I'm very good
at point scoring. But yeah, I thought that's such a
good point that at a time when we're doing that,
we've also got a model good language.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah, I think that's a great point. And in this
Brooding newsletter, she asks some people to explain why they
made a habit of praising their co parent, Because the
interesting thing is she did this quick survey and ask
people if they did it, and a lot of people
felt the same as us. They had never thought about
it before, but then given the proposition, well do you
praise your partner or your co parent, they started to
(09:15):
think that they probably should. So here are some themes
that emerged from people who were doing it. Many parents
were trying to lead by example. They wanted to teach
their kids the importance of giving and receiving love in
the form of praise, which I think is a really
nice idea. This was interesting. Some felt like they were
kind of building the scaffolding in case their relationship hit
a rough patch. So it's like, if we bank some
(09:36):
goodwill and gratitude now and create that strong bond through that,
then when we hit rocky times, we can kind of
draw on the bank account of praise and gratitude. And
then another one was interesting, This is a little bit
like what you were saying, trying to build a family
culture that's different from the one that they grew up in.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
The author I was talking about before, she said we
save our best selves for our children, and I don't
think that's always the best example for the children, right
to see that you speak to them in a certain way.
My patience for Luna is beyond anything I imagined I
could ever have, But my patience for Luca has severely reduced.
So while you've got a sick baby who's screaming, and
(10:16):
you go, I can't ever take my frustration out on her.
I've seen moments where we do it to each.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Other, like can I think further frustration?
Speaker 2 (10:23):
And I think that that's inevitable to an extent. But
I really liked the idea that we've heard this reluctance.
And there's kind of this conservative criticism of divorce and
the impact that might have on kids, But the everyday
verbal japs that you might have and even a loving
marriage can't be good either. It's an interesting new way
to look at it.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
There's also some people who are reluctant to engage in
this habit because they feel like it's adopting a bit
of a kind of retro mother worship dynamic, you know,
like mother does everything for us, isn't she amazing and
kind of emphasizing the idea of the all giving mother.
I think it's also hard to receive praise sometimes because
(11:04):
you get suspicious about maybe why someone's doing it. But
I feel like what a lot of people who were
surveyed here said was they started doing it and then
they noticed changes, which is why I asked you how
you were feeling about doing it. Once you've established a habit,
people say that it makes their children treat them better too,
because they're modeling how to be in a civil give
(11:27):
and take relationship. And the author of Brooding said that
once she started both accepting and giving out praise to
her co parent, her children started asking her how her
day was more.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Often, oh, my goodness, unheard of. It also gave me
a lot more compassionate understanding for the celebrity statements that
we often hear, so the conscious uncoupling of Gwyneth and Chris,
for example, or the mutual respect that we often hear,
and we roll our eyes because we think it seems inauthentic.
But I really respect parents who go we're going to uncouple,
(12:02):
but we are going to speak about each other respectfully always,
because when we don't that doesn't end well.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Yeah. Another good example of that is Bruce Willison de
me Moore. Demi Moore has spoken openly about how they'll
always be a family. They've been divorced for some time now,
just in a different form. I do want to, though,
leave a bit of space for Deborah Ley to express yourself.
I think to me that's a slightly different point from
whether you're making a habit of praising your partner, because
(12:30):
I think there's something refreshing about Deborah le Furnace being
honest about what happened.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
I think you can also praise someone as a parent
while also acknowledging that maybe they weren't.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
The perfect husband. Great point.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Just let your kids play with makeup. That's the title
of a column in The Atlantic I stumbled upon recently
which argues that your daughter or son playing with makeup
is not a red flag. Apparently, when kids imitate applying lipstick,
it's developmentally normal and a really healthy part of role playing.
In fact, our fear of it says something about how
(13:07):
we put down girly culture. We don't bristle in the
same way when boys play with cars. For example, Emelia,
I feel like the feminist books I've read told me
that this is very bad and that I'm socializing my
daughter to think she needs to alter her appearance in
order to be considered beautiful, which is her currency as
a female in the world. And she doesn't see her
dad putting on makeup? Am I a cog in the
(13:30):
patriarchy machine?
Speaker 1 (13:31):
I am so excited to talk about this because I
want to mount a feminist case for makeup. Oh my God,
ready to go.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
The more you lean into makeup as a form of artifice,
as a toy, as a fun thing, the less it
becomes this mysterious necessity of adult womanhood. I think the
more mystique you build around it, and if you keep
your children away from the fun little gold tubes, and
I mean, why wouldn't children want to play with this stuff?
It is essentially like a box of crayons, accept more
(14:00):
fun and expensive. The more you're making it seem like
something that only adult women can indulge in or play with.
And I think it's really important that a we make
clear that makeup is fun. It is not a necessity.
It is not something that you need to hide yourself
or camouflage yourself. It's just a fun thing. And then two,
(14:20):
the more we decouple it from the idea of it's
just something used by women, so girls and boys are
attracted to the bright colors of makeup, let them play
with it. The more we demystify, I think, the less
power and importance is placed on it as a necessary
ritual of being a woman.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
You make a really good point because playing with your
appearance is a developmental milestone. So there's a recognizing in
the mirror. Then having control over your appearance or knowing
that you can manipulate it or choose what you wear,
is something that every kid is going to go through, right,
So I understand embracing that. What I struggle with is
(15:01):
the way in which brands have got their claws into it.
There are some makeup companies. There's one in the US.
It is literally marketed to three year olds three plus,
and they have used images or like cartoons or beloved
toys that my daughter plays with to go this is
(15:22):
for you to make it look fun and exciting. And
as much as makeup is fun and I love makeup,
I would be lying if I said it didn't also
play a role in feeling as though I need to
present in a certain way to the world. Obviously, if
I do television, I sit in a chair for an hour,
whereas the male co host gets ten minutes. There are
(15:43):
things like that that we can't reconcile in a home necessarily.
But there is something deeply unequal and patriarchal about the
practice of makeup.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Right, Yeah, damn it, you've just remembered in old case.
I think you've raised some really good points. There's something
strangely circular about marketing makeup to three year olds, in
the sense that why a lot of women wear makeup
is because we are taught that it makes us look younger,
and so we put blush on our cheeks because as
(16:11):
you get older, you lose color in your cheeks, and
we put mascara on because as you get older, where
do your lashes go?
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Side note all pigment.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
And because you're losing pigment, that's why you're applying more
makeup as you get older. So the thinking goes. So
there's something so odd about then, teaching three year olds
to look young.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Yeah, and to market to them. I have seen videos
come up of twelve year olds using anti aging products
like that's been absorbed. I mean the whole skincare trend
is unbelievable and has literally put a rocket up the
markets of skincare and makeup. And there was this example
(16:54):
a few years ago of a makeup brand doing a
back to school event and it was like, come along,
will teach you to do your makeup for school and
you can get redeemable products from that. And they said
browse and skin like. They weren't going, You're going to
wear eyeeshadow to school, but I just went. Know something
about that makes me deeply uncomfortable. I think that that
(17:15):
is something I'd like to put off for as long
as I can.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Well. And there's also an interesting question here, do you
feel differently about kids using makeup versus kids using skincare,
because we've heard skincare companies tell us, oh, it's like
brushing your teeth. You've got to start early. We've got
to create the healthy habits. I always think, I don't know.
I didn't know that I was meant to wash my
(17:40):
face until I was eighteen. Pretty much, No, it's fine.
It hasn't fallen off.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
The idea that you need a routine. I mean, that's
just like textbook capitalism. You get them younger and younger,
and then you get them into the routine that totally
makes sense. But other than using a terrible exfoliant that
took off layers.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Of my skin, you cut one.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Yeah, fourteen, I loved that and it was three dollars great,
it smelled great, but we know it wasn't doing good things,
and in fact, it was probably very bad for the environment.
But the idea that you've got girls coming up and
asking their mum for these products and then you, as
a parent have to say no, even though look at
my cupboard, is like a really awkward hypocrisy because the
(18:21):
reality is as much as we might have our makeup
laying around and boys will play with it and girls
are playing with it, it's not seven year old boys that
are saying, can I go and buy a lip gloss from?
Speaker 1 (18:32):
No, it's not. There's a part of me that feels
like the makeup is more okay than the skincare.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
It feels more playful.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
It's more playful. It's because makeup it looks like toys.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
That's so true, and there is something inherently, I believe,
artistic about it. It's playful because of the colors and
because you can experiment and because you can make your
face look different, whether it's prettier or not, but like
you can just play with it, whereas the skincare thing
is a whole other ballgame.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
I think so. And I think that another difference is
that makeup is something that only adult women really are
expected to wear. Right, if you don't wear makeup as
an adult woman, unfortunately you were perceived as making a
choice not to wear makeup. It's not the default. The
default right now in twenty twenty five is that if
(19:27):
you leave the house not wearing makeup, that's a decision
you made to deviate from normal. And I just want
to break that down as much as possible, And paradoxically,
I think the way to do that is just to
teach kids, boys, girls that it's just a fun thing
to play with rather than a tool or a piece
(19:47):
of armor.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
There is a quote by Gray's Anatomy star Ellen Pompeo
that I've been thinking about for months. Earlier this year,
she was a guest on Alex Cooper's Call Her Daddy podcast,
and she said, you cannot be a mother and have
children and give one hundred percent to your job. You
can't because there's a part of you that's somewhere else.
You split into different pieces. You're no longer just you.
(20:09):
You've been split into different pieces. Well, that might sound
like a negative thing. The other thing she went on
to say was, you know what that does? It makes
you more soulful, It makes you richer, It makes you funnier,
it makes you feel more, makes you more empathetic, it
makes you angrier. She talks about the range of emotions
you have, and you will be yourself times one thousand, Amelia.
(20:31):
Do you think it's true that you cannot give one
hundred percent to your job once you become a mother?
Speaker 1 (20:35):
My popular opinion on this is that you can't. I
think Allan's right. I think it is really hard to
give one hundred percent to anything once you've become a mother,
because you're always thinking about if you have fruit for
the lunchboxes tomorrow, and do you need to wash this?
And what are they go?
Speaker 3 (20:51):
What's your definition?
Speaker 2 (20:51):
No, I feel like this is a definitional thing of like,
you can still show up to work and do the
best work and the quality of work you did before
you had babies. But does one hundred percent mean give
my whole self?
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Well, I'm going to add a caveat, which is you're
not giving one hundred percent, but you're getting a whole
lot more done. It's a snake's and lightert situation. You're
never fully focused, but I do think you become more
efficient because you have to be.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
So do you think you're worse at your job since
you had babies?
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Oh that's such a good question, Jesse. Do you have
an answer.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
I don't think it has impacted how I do my job.
I initially saw this and went, oh, this can be weaponized.
Like I was a little bit like Ellen, it's bad
for the call. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
My second thought was that Gray's is still going on.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
I had no idea.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
I had no idea, but I thought, I don't want
some CEO thinking moms aren't valuable in the workforce, or
they've always got their head somewhere else, or they're chaotic.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
I don't, I.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Don't, and I don't think that's true. Like I always
think of this quote, which I thought was from Gwyneth Paltrow,
but I believe it's actually from Elise Loanan, who used
to be the chief content officer at Goop with Gwyneth Paltrow,
and she said that at Goop they always looked to
hire moms because they said moms make for good hires.
The amount that I can accomplish in twenty minutes is
(22:14):
truly shocking to me, and that is true. I do
feel like my brain now is always racing along, and
I'm brushing my teeth thinking about something that I need
to do for work and something I need to do
for the kids, whereas before I might have just been
brushing my teeth thinking some nice thoughts about what I
was going to have for dinner.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Yeah, there was a great quote by a philosopher named
Agnes Khaled who says giving birth to a baby is
literally splitting intwo and it is not always clear which
one your eye goes with, Like it is a case
of My mum always said that the super power she
wanted was to be in two places at once. It's
his desperation to be in two places at once, which
is a really new thing.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
I don't have that desperation really now that my kids
are at school. I'm very happy that they're at school
and that I'm at work, so I don't feel bifurcated
in that way. I just feel like my brain is
always thinking about multiple things in a way that it
wasn't before.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
So there was this article in The Cut last year
by Anastasia Berg that was called what if motherhood isn't
transformative at all?
Speaker 3 (23:15):
Did she read this?
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (23:17):
No, it was so interesting, she said. We're often told
that becoming a parent will alter one's identity. For me,
the change never came. And she says, I had my baby,
I'm looking around, I'm asking the same questions. I have
the same friends, the same problems, and I'm interested in
the same petty gossip. And I wondered if we talk
about motherhood sometimes in such absolutes, as though there is
(23:40):
this universal experience of becoming a mother and some things
that you say, you go, oh my goodness, I feel
so sane about this very specific human experience. But I
sit somewhere in between these two. It's like, I don't
know if I do feel like I'm a completely different
person who's a different person at work than I was
before I had a baby. And it was like afterwards,
(24:04):
I remember walking around and going, oh, I was so
worried I'd have a totally different identity. I still feel
like myself I never had that identity crisis. Maybe I've
had like work crisis time crisis, but like I have
felt like Jesse the whole way through.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
I'm doing everything i can at work to prove that
I'm not a different person, and I'm almost swinging to
the opposite extreme. So, for instance, I think a lot
of my colleagues at work do not know that I
have children, and I kind of like it that way.
I very much like to categorize the different parts of
my life and keep them separate.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
They're going to be so confused about why you're hosting
this podcast, Familia. They're gonna be like, why is she
on a parenting oult?
Speaker 1 (24:45):
I'm going to be confused. I just don't like to
talk about it at work. I think it's because I'm
sensitive to the idea of, oh, she's always talking about
her kids, and I remember that before I had kids,
I would be resentful of mothers who left work early
to pick their kids up from school. I'd roll my eyes.
(25:06):
I'd say, they're not working as hard as I am.
Now I know that's not the case, because I know
that they're picking them up from school and then they're
going home and they're doing a second shift. Yeah, but
I'm doing everything I can to prove that I am
the same person as I was for four kids. And
maybe it's a little exhausting. It doesn't seem like you
were working that hard to keep that.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
No, I still feel like the same person, and I
think my definition of one hundred percent has changed.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
I reckon that's what it is, Okay, Tommy.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
It's like, one hundred percent doesn't mean that you're in
the office for twelve hours. And if there was an
opportunity to come up tonight before Luna, I would have
probably leaned into it, and now I can't, which is
totally fine.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
But that doesn't mean that the projects that.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
I choose to do I don't put full, unabashed effort
into like I still absolutely do. It's just maybe I
do less projects.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
You thinking in the back of your head about whether
Luna will eat frozen peas for dinner. Be honest, I'm
actually not.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Okay, well, I think that my brain might be broken.
I think I'm actually quite good, and I know this
is something you're not meant to say. In twenty twenty five.
I'm very good at focus. I look at it like iPhone,
do not disturbon, do not disturb and look sometimes, especially
if she's sick, I find that really hard. I find
it hard to be or if she's been upset or whatever.
But you know, Maya talks about ADHD and her experience
(26:23):
with the way her brain works, and I always think
my brain is a complete opposite. Like I feel as
though I can sit down, focus, I'm here when I'm here,
and I'm there when I'm there. I feel like I
can do that. It's time for our recommendations of the week, Amelia.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
What have you got? I came home the other day
check the mail and there was a National Geographic Kids
Magazine in the mail, and I thought, what a thoughtful
gift from sort of benevolent care of my children in
our orbit, who just thought they needed some education. And
I asked my partner if you knew anything about it.
He told me, you got a deal through McDonald's for it.
(26:56):
So that's why we're now subscribed to National Geographic Kids
Magazine mini magazine. He goes to McDonald's a lot. I
think they have some kind of VIP experience where you
get free magazine subscriptions. Anyway, I've been delighted by this product.
A couple of reasons why I love it. It's a
little kid's magazine with puzzles and weird facts.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
So it's written four kids.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
It's written four kids, it comes every month, and it's
got lots of good photos in it of weird insects.
I love that about it. But a young person literally
asked me the other day, someone who works at mom
and Mia, what a magazine was, and I paused for
a second, so I figured I should probably explain on
this podcast for anyone who doesn't know. I used to
work with a boss at a magazine who described magazines
(27:41):
as the ultimate technology. They never run out of batteries,
you can fold them under your arm, and they don't
require a USB cord. What else could you want from anything? True?
And it turns out I can't believe I'm having to
explain this, but I think in twenty twenty five I do.
The great thing about magazines is you can take them
to a cafe or to a sports game. You do
(28:02):
not require a power point, and then you can just
entertain a child with this most old of technologies.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Throw it in the backseat when they're winging.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Yes, gather around and listen to the law of magazines. Anyway,
I also have one other thing to tell you, which
is that a pangolan's tongue can be up to seventy
one centimeters in length, and that's almost as long as
its body.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
So that's fascinating.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
See, these are things that we should all know. This
is why I love having kids around, because they're full
of fun.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Facts, and the National Geographic for Kids will teach you
these things.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
My recommendation is very, very basic, Amelia, when you were
in the baby baby trenches, did you ever play.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
The Happy Song? No? I don't know what that is. Okay.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
I worry that people haven't heard of a happy song
when it's the only hack. So do you know that
artist image and Hate? I don't know any okay, image
and Hate. Did you ever watch the OC? No, Amelia,
I thought you're a millennial.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
I'm an elder millennial. I'm waiting magazines.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Image Heape is this person who wrote like actual good
adult music. But she has written this song. I don't
know when. It is called the happy Song, and it
is designed to make babies stop crying.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
It's like I fell, I say.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
It was designed to make babies.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
I was like Bessie, No, it's the opposite.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
You'll put that on and it's not arousing at all.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
It's like got.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Little weird little sounds, and the tone of her voice,
in the tone of the sounds is meant to do
something to okay crying. Right, So I saw this on TikTok,
I think before I had Luna, and so every time
she's crying in a car or whatever, I put on
a happy song. I reckon, it's got eighty five percent success, right,
it is really really good.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
This reminds me of a bonus recommendation I have. Oh,
there is a jewel album of Lala bish.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Jewel as in yeah, yeah, yeah, the.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Lyrics anyway, it's lallabies. And if you have kids who
are small and who nap in the car, which obviously
I would never have done because kids require good sleep hygen.
But you know, hypothetically, if they were napping in the car,
you put it on. Children literally cannot get through the
first track of the album without falling asleep.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
There needs to be like a handout at the hospital
that tells you these things like this. People haven't heard
of it, And I'm like, even at nearly two, if
she's losing it, I will put on and she'll go
no happy song because.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
She knows it.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Wow. But then she's happy.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
But then she's like, damn it, I've stopped crying.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Does it make you happy?
Speaker 2 (30:31):
It makes me happy if she stops crying. But the
sound of it I now associate with desperation. So in
a lot of ways, it's like, I will be so
happy when I never hear it again. That is all
we have time for on Parenting out Loud today. Our
MoMA Mia studios are styled with furniture from Fenton and Fenton.
Visit Fenton and Fenton dot com dot au and we
(30:53):
will see you next Saturday. Bye.
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