July 4, 2025 • 32 mins
We've got a fresh episode of Parenting Out Loud for you. Because if parents are thinking about it, we're talking about it.
On the show today, Jessie Stephens, Amelia Lester and Stacey Hicks join forces to chat all things including:
👩 'I abandoned my family without warning. It was the best thing I ever did.' We dive into the article that went viral on site this week and we have lots of thoughts.
🍼 Why more families than ever are wanting daughters over sons - what's behind this fascinating shift?
💚 Plus, do you have a DFK? Were you a DFK? And WTF is a DFK? Dr Becky's latest parenting trend explained.
🤸 And, are you in trampoline denial?
Plus, in this week’s reccos:
📝 Amelia wants you to try Spirograph Drawing and Design Set
🧸 Jessie wants you to listen to the podcast Eat Sleep Repeat
📚 Stacey wants you to make this recipe-less crowd favourite meal, just cook lamb mince with cumin, paprika in a fry pan. Throw some potato and zucchini in the air fryer (or oven) and a dollop of tzatziki to finish it all off.
Support independent women's media
What To Listen To Next:
- Parenting Out Loud Ep 1: Grandparents — It's Time For Your Performance Review
- Parenting Out Loud Ep 2: The Death Of The Dining Table & 'Outdated' Schooling
- Parenting Out Loud Ep 3: A New Co-Parenting Rule & The 100% Work Dilemma
- Parenting Out Loud Ep 4: The Ms Rachel Controversy & The Great Kids Vs Friendships Debate
- Mamamia Out Loud: "Too Rich" Celebrities & The Adolescence Theory
- Eat Sleep Repeat: I Don’t Want To Parent The Way I Was Parented
- Connect your subscription to Apple Podcasts
What to read:
- 'I abandoned my family without warning. It was the best thing I ever did.'
- 'I didn't realise gender disappointment was a thing in pregnancy, until I admitted I had it.'
- What you should do if your child gets injured on the trampoline.
- "My adult child was suffering, but I had to step back for my own health.”
- There's one question we're all asking since watching Adoles
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges
the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
is recorded on.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Hello and welcome to our limited series Parenting Out Loud.
I am Jessie Stevens. I am joined by Amelia Lester
here Hello, and Mamma MIA's deputy editor, Stacey Hicks.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Hello.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
We're here to talk about some of the stories that
dominated the week, because if parents are thinking about it,
we are talking about it. On today's show, Do you
have a DFK that stands for a deeply feeling kid?
And Doctor Becky knows how to spot one? But is
there really any such thing? And the stunning decline of
the preference to have boys apparently girls are very much
on trend. Why plus are you and Trampoline Denial? We
(01:02):
read the most shocking article about Trampoline's and are desperate
to debrief.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
But first, in case you missed it, one of the
big stories on MoMA Mia this week was about a
woman who abandoned her family to live on her own
and now we're all a little bit jealous. In an
interview with Katie Powers, author and mother of two Monique
Ben told her spoke very candidly about the moment she
was staying at her family's home in North Queensland and
just decided to never go back to her life in
(01:29):
New South Wales.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
I feel like a very relevant detail here was the
age of her children. That's what I scrolled to be, like,
how old are we're talking to? And four are we talking?
Speaker 1 (01:38):
When can I leave? She had two teenage sons. But
she said days turned into weeks and she just sent
her husband an email and said, that's it. I'm done
with carrying the mental load. I want to live on
my own. I'm not divorcing you. I just don't want
to live in the same house as you anymore.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
See I thought when I first read this and it
described the suns as growing, I sort of thought, this
is a semantics exercise.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
If she's leaving.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Home, specifically leaving her husband and her children are large
looking after themselves, it's up to her whether or not
she calls it divorce. But it feels a little bit
like she's separating from her husband.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Yeah, and that's what she said. She said that he
was initially surprised and kind of making sure she hadn't
gone mad and had a breakdown or something more serious
had happened, but that he actually came around to it
and supported her and was like, that's okay. Well they
visit each other now regularly, so a couple of times
a year they'll go and see the other one and
they just say the dynamic works. But she acknowledges. She said,
(02:38):
I know that this could not work for all people,
mostly because most people don't have two houses to go between.
We couldn't get very far. We chose to leine you
didn't have another bedroom. Yeah, exactly exactly. So she is
doing this from a very privileged position. But yeah, she said.
People do say is there adultery involved? Is there some reason?
And she said, I actually love him so much more
(02:59):
now than when we were living under the one roof,
So that's why they do it.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
It's the most taboo thing a woman can do anytime.
I've read a few books recently that have this theme,
and it's like, when you're confronted with that, readers get
really triggered and just like the thought. I mean, when
a man does it, we're horrified, but when a mother
leaves her children or her husband, that's seen as particularly
(03:25):
kind of I don't know, it's subverting the maternal nature
of her role. But I think the interesting question is
like what leads to that, and also the amount of
people that clicked on it is kind of going there's
some fascination with this decision. And clearly it was years
upon years of resentment of taking on the mental load
(03:46):
to such a point that it just overflows and you.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Just can't do it anymore. Yeah, she said, it just
got to the point where she couldn't not leave. She
said it felt like that was the only option and
that she had to be prepared for whatever his reaction
was to that. But luckily he was okay with it,
so maybe he was feeling the same way.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Do you have a deeply feeling kid? Are you a
deeply feeling kid? I am doctor Bem. Doctor Becky is
a clinical psychologist and an icon for millennial parents, and
she published a video to her three point three million
followers recently and here is what she said.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Right now, raise your hand. If you were told that
you were dramatic when you were a kid, raise your hand.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
If you were told you're making a big deal out
of nothing, raise your hand.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
If you were told things like you're ruining this for
the family. I have news for you.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
I have a feeling you are a deeply feeling kid.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
I have a feeling you might have a deeply feeling kid.
Deeply feeling kids are more porous to the world. They
truly do feel things more intensely. More comes in and
more comes.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Out, which yes, means very intense tantrums and escalations. Deeply
feeling kids sometimes experience their feelings as threats.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
It's like they're being attacked.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
I need initial reactions. What do you think do you
put much stock in a deeply feeling kid?
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Am I allowed to say that I hate this?
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Tell me why you hate it?
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Isn't Dr Beckyt just reminding us all of our subjectivity
as human that we all feel things.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Whether or not we show it to the world or not. Look.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
I think doctor Becky's success boils down to the fact
that she has identified the fundamental truth that we need
to treat our kids like humans and Okay, sometimes I
need a reminder of that.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Well, will co sign yes?
Speaker 3 (05:28):
When I scream at my child, put your socks on,
go to the toilet and brush your teeth.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Would I say that to my partner? No? I probably wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
She will putty sucks on a brush.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
That's true, but that's I think why she's so loved,
and look, I don't want to I don't want to
yuck anyone's yum. I know many people who say that
doctor Becky has really helped them break generational cycles of trauma.
And I really like how that she emphasizes you need
to handle your own feelings before dealing with your childs,
and that includes figuring out if you yourself are a DFK.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
But ultimately, this clip just irritates me because she is
selling your product, and she is trying to come up
with a label that could conceivably be applied to just
about everyone. Am I wrong?
Speaker 3 (06:16):
That?
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Okay, that's how I feel because when it's like highly
sensitive person or you'll often hear someone say I just
experience the world a little more deeply than I'm an
you know what I am? I'm an overthinker, And it's
like the no, no, You just have closer proximity to
your thoughts and your feelings than anyone else's, so we
imagine that our own inner worlds are far more complicated
(06:38):
than anyone else's because I can't access yours. I'm like amerely,
it's pretty simple She's just here with a smile on
her face. Me very very complicated, Stacy, Do you have
any I agree.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
I felt very seen and attacked in equal measure because
I am definitely a DFK. I am someone who will
cry when they see someone alone in a restaurant, despite
the fact that person is probably having a great time
alone in the restaurant. I project those feelings onto them.
I'm that person. But you have to say, pull yourself together.
You should not need to be upset by this. And
(07:09):
so I do think that my emotions are probably a
bit closer to the surface, I would say, than other people's,
But that doesn't mean that I feel more deeply than
another person. But I do feel conflicted because I have
to admit when I saw doctor Becky's videos and I
heard this label, it did kind of give me some
level of comfort to put a name to something I
(07:31):
feel like i'm a little bit different to other people with,
and also a term for something that I think my
child experiences. On the other hand, I don't want to
pigeonhole her as this particular type of person, and I
think that's where the danger comes with all the labels,
if it.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Lends itself to treating our child with like more empathy.
And I mean, I've got a two year old. Where
you go, I don't know many even tempered two year
olds who are really good with their feelings and have
really quite muted feelings about yogurt. She has quite strong
feelings about yogurt. But in saying that, what I worry
about is the labeling. And I'm not talking about die
(08:09):
no sees necessarily, but even I look at my daughter
and the moment I think she's shy, she does something
that suggests maybe she's not, or the moment I think
she's really gentle, that's when she'll bite. You know, Like, kids,
by their nature, are in a process of evolution, and
I worry that by putting any kind of expectation or
(08:32):
label on them, it becomes self fulfilling.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Yes, I worry about the impact on kids, and I
worry about the impact on parents as well. So, okay,
you've established that your kid is deeply feeling. How does
that flow into how you treat them? I think what
it leads to is this idea that you have to
prioritize their feelings above your own or even above your
own schedule. So I found this CBC article that nicely
(08:56):
summarized the back class to doctor Becky and sort of
gets it where I'm at on this, which is gentle
parenting too rough on parents.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Now, I should say that doctor Becky is.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Probably doesn't identify as a gentle parenting acolyte, but she's
definitely a j it. And basically the idea is that
in in stressing the importance of acknowledging children's feelings sometimes
above all else, it makes it really hard for parents.
They constantly feel like they're falling behind. And sometimes you
do have to be the bad guy, and sometimes you
(09:27):
just don't have time for the feelings and you just
have to get out the door. And so I worry
about both the children's side of it and the parents'
side of it when we're labeling kids in this way
and giving your child the label of a DFK doesn't
stop that behavior from occurring. Like you can't just be
in the shops going just look away, she's throwing products
at you because she's a DFK. It won't change what's
(09:48):
going on. So having it is not very useful. Yeah,
So what I wonder why do people respond to this? Then?
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Why do you think there's vineous thing too. Anytime on
the site on Mamma Mia. Anytime on Mamma Mia that
we write about something that is a term or a
theory or gives a name to something that's happening in
the world, people love it. People will flock to that,
And I think it's just about kind of tying a
neat little bow around something that they're may be grappling with.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Is it also confirming our sense that our child is unique?
Which all our children are genuinely unique and are genuinely special,
But these titles suggest like there is something that you're
seeing in your kid that makes them different, because she's
not saying that all kids are DFK. She's saying that
only some are. And it also I think it then
(10:37):
makes us feel like, Okay, now that I have a
DFK doctor, Becky is going to teach me some strategies.
And I will give her a lot of credit in
this because she's really straightforward. And we've talked on this
show before about how for a lot of mums and dads,
they don't have a community that might teach them strategies.
Like I'm really close to my mum and she'll often
tell me something that will help with parenting, like I'm
(10:58):
doing this for the first time, and doctor Becky provides
that for people. She has something she talks about sturdy.
Have you heard this?
Speaker 1 (11:04):
What that?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
So she taught her big thing is like a parent
needs to be sturdy, not souper, her authoritarian, not entirely gentle,
but sturdy suggests you're something that a child can lean on.
You know your values, you know what the limitations are,
you know the rules, but you're also there's some flexibility
in that. And I quite like there are a lot
(11:25):
that pops up from doctor Becky and I'm like, yeah,
I like that, I'll use it. But at the same time,
you're right, she's selling a course, she's selling a book,
she's selling her expertise.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
And I also think she's kind of pathologizing parenting itself.
Like some sometime around the point at which parenting became
a verb, we decided that to be a parent meant
you had to absorb all the evidence and all the
latest studies and all the greatest thinkers on parenting. And
I think part of that I have a theory. I
think part of the reason why doctor Becky and others
(11:56):
have such slavish devotion online is because it's a bit
of a pendulum swing response to the style of parenting
that a lot of millennials grew up with. So, for instance,
doctor Becky says you should never do chimeouts because they
shame the child, and this comes from her grounding in
modern psychotherapy. She's also a psychologist, so there's clearly some
(12:16):
evidence to back that. On the other hand, pediatricians advocate
for timeouts, some American pediatricians, according to the American Academy
of Pediatrics, because it has been shown to be effective
in rewiring kids' behavior. So different experts are going to
come up with different assessments for what the best cognitive
approaches are. It's clear why doctor Becky doesn't like the timeouts.
(12:39):
At the same time, it can be a tool in
the toolbox. And for millennial parents, I think there's a
sense of we want to do better than our parents,
we want to correct their perceived failings. But the truth
is no one can be a perfect parent.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Have you ever watched a gender reveal video where the
parents are clearly trying to hide their disappointment, Well, it
was probably because they found out they were having a
boy in a surprising turn of events. There is now
an increasing preference by parents to have little girls, when
it was once very much the opposite. Article in the
Economists this week showed this is a trend happening globally,
even in countries like China, where the now abolished one
(13:16):
child policy once meant that pregnancies resulting in girls were
routinely aborted in favor of boys who would carry on
the family line and look after parents in old age.
To put it into context, the article said, so globally,
among babies born in the year two thousand, one point
six million girls were missing from the number you'd expect
given the natural sex ratio at birth. This year, that
(13:38):
number is likely to be only two hundred thousand, which
is still a lot, but it's falling. In America and Scandinavia,
families are now more likely to have another child if
their first child is a son in the hopes of
getting a girl, and seventy five percent of Japanese couples
who only want one child say they'd prefer it be
a daughter. They're also seeing it for adoptive parents. Some
(13:59):
agencies now charge higher fees for placing female children as
the demand is so much higher. I think there's a
few reasons for this gradual about turn. So I'd love
to know why you think there's a sudden surge in
girl power.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
I reckon there's a few things right because historically boys
have offered families and economic advantage, right, and with gender
equality and getting women in the workplace, that's meant that
what boys offering that way, girls can now offer.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
I think it's definitely an interesting point that the article
makes about people feeling as though a daughter will look
after them into old age. I've actually heard people say that,
But I'm going to throw out a totally random theory
that's just mine. I wonder if there is more of
a focus on centering what the mother wants.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
So we're talking about things like gender disappointment, which we've
never talked about before because of you know, just the
public conversation going on to TikTok and Instagram.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
I don't know anyone personally who's experienced, yes.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
So Kelly McCarran spoke really candidly about this after the
birth of her son, and I found it really refreshing.
I hadn't heard that term before. And you know, she
loves she's such a great mum. She loves her son
more than anything in the world, but her initial response was, Oh,
I didn't realize how much I wanted a girl, and
I think that by centering mother's voices, we're probably hearing
(15:21):
that more. The question is why would a mother want
a daughter, ever a son, And I wonder if it's
we feel like we know what we're doing because we
were a daughter, and also some deeply psychological sense of
wanting to reparent ourselves, like I have this thing I
wonder if I go, I want to re enter my
own childhood, and maybe I feel I can better do
(15:43):
that with a girl than a boy, which I don't
think is true, but it could just be what our
guts tell us. What do you think, Amelia Well?
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Anecdotally, I will say that in the new South Welles
public school system which I currently am experiencing, girls are
very much the white whale. It seems there are just
not enough girls to go around to sprinkle the fairy
dust of good behavior across classes. In public primary schools
they are better by There are also fewer of them
(16:11):
than boys in public schools in my experience, and I
wonder if part of this is because I certainly know
women who have put their daughters in single sex education
from kindergarten, whereas I don't know anyone who's chosen to
do that with boys. Not to say it doesn't happen,
but it's because of that conventional wisdom that girls have
contagiously good behavior and that will translate to boys as well.
(16:34):
So there is this sense now where to have girls
in your child's class, and the more girls you have
in your child's class, the more valuable because the class
is likely to be better run, less disrupted, less loud.
It all makes me a bit sad, to be honest.
I have a boy and then a girl. And when
this happened, I have a friend who is French who
(16:54):
said to me, ah.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Leschois du ro.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
I said, what is that and she said, it's the
choice of kings, because going back historically in France and
in other monarchies around the world, kings wanted a boy
first to secure the lineage in that very sexist of
monarchy's everywhere, and then a girl because girls, you know,
they dress more nicely and the people love looking at
their clothes, and that's what royal families wanted. And I
(17:20):
guess it's understandable that as women are delaying childbirth, and
as people are having fewer kids, particularly in rich countries,
it's not surprising that they want the choice that is
considered easier, because we do consider girls to be easier.
For all those reasons. It still makes me sad, though,
and I wonder if part of it is that we
(17:42):
can see that the boys are not okay. They are
behind in school, they are behind in life. We see
TV shows and movies about in cell culture, it's the
men are not okay. And I feel like we're making
choices based on what we think boys and girls are
rather than what they are capable of or what they
could be, which, after all, isn't that the point of parenting?
Speaker 2 (18:04):
I know, I thought that after adolescence. I thought, I
don't think a lot of people are watching that show
going I can't wait to parent a teenage boy like
it feels terrifying in a lot of ways. How about you, Stacy,
what do you thinks behind it?
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Yeah? I think there's an assumed closeness between a daughter
and their mother, which is not necessarily the case. It's
a sweeping generalization, but I think for women, when you
are thinking about the fact that, especially if you're having children,
later that you may only have one child, or you're
making that decision that you're definitely only having one child.
That you go, well, I'm familiar with that, like, I
know what to do there. I'll be the mother's side
(18:36):
for when the grandchildren come. I'll be the mother's side
for the wedding.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
Like I feel like a mother and a daughter being close.
Everyone goes, oh, isn't that sweet? A mother and a
son are close, And it's Mormon baits and psychos.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
That's so true. That's so true. It's seen as toxic
somehow if a mother is super close with their son.
So I think I think maybe that's part of it.
An article this week rocked my world, turn me upside down,
potentially cause some bones to break.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Let me explain. It was called are You in Trampoline Denial?
And it was from the cut. Like the author, Katie
Arnold Ratliffe, I have long heard rumors that trampolines are
in fact, incredibly dangerous. I am rolling my eyes as
I say this. For many years now, the American Academy
of Pediatrics has said that no trampoline is safe for
(19:23):
children under six, and that no trampoline outside a gymnastics
program is safe for children over six. But again I
had rolled my eyes at this, I had silently judged
those pediatricians.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
As kill joys.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
And I held my child's fifth birthday party at a
trampoline park.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Did everyone come or were there some who protested?
Speaker 3 (19:40):
No, everyone came because they did a thing about trampoline
parks and five year old boys.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Say what you will about boys. They need to burn
up some energy, and that's what trampoline parks are for. However,
I can no longer dismiss the rumors because this piece
had some absolutely horrifying statistics in them. I'm going to
share three. First statistic, an estimated three hundred thousand trampoline
injuries a year occur in the United States.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
That's so many.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Statistic two twenty percent of the involve head injuries, including concussions.
Statistic three eleven percent of injuries at trampoline parks are significant.
And you know when doctors use the term significant, they're
actually they actually mean significant, as opposed to when I
use the term significant when I can't decide what decision
(20:27):
about what to eat for lunch, So this is major.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
And then also the waiver.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
You sign, which I'm sure none of us have read
because it's a PDF and it goes on for many,
many pages. Turns out that waiver basically signs the way
your and your child's life should anything terrible happen at
the trampoline park. So where does this leave this? And
what am I meant to do with my children on
rainy winter days to stop them from climbing all over
my furniture?
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Are we all just kill joys? Now? Give me a
permission to believe this, Jesse.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Look, I I think there's an element of killed joy
to it, because I went all right following this. Firstly,
this article was incredibly percuisive. I read this and it
talked about the trampoline fracture, like the particular break double bounce,
the double bounce, and.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
You explain the double bounce, so the.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
You go, chess, no, no, you expected.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
The double bounce is when someone's legs are already coming
down straight and then another person bounces and it makes
their legs compound and cause a fracture.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
And the break is exactly the break I had, so
I know how bad it is. It's the break of
the tibia and you actually hear a pop is and
you need surgery and stuff like and for kids to
get the break is even worse than adults because of
something about growth plates and like growth plate, growth plates.
You don't want to hear growth plates.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
You don't you don't want to hear growth plates.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
I'm like, I thought it was just a cheeky little
broken wrist, But no, that one, no no fun. So
I read it and went, no, this is really bad. Okay, okay,
no trampoline. But then I thought, where do we draw
the line, because what are kids do outside trampolines scooters? Well,
my sister broke a wrist on a scooter.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
But there's way more dangerous sure surely, surely skateboarding.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
Also, how do we balance this against what Jonathan Yeah
was telling about how the online world is so much
more dangerous than the offline world.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Was he not talking about trampoline.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Parks, sir, exactly? And this is the thing is, it's like, okay,
so we take them out of the skateboarding parks. They
know you should never go to the beach, don't go
near a body of water, No roller skating, jumping castles,
rock climb.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
I forget the screen, Oh any sport?
Speaker 2 (22:29):
No screen?
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Is like, what are they meant to be doing with
their time. Don't say read a book.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
They don't want to read a book.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
What do you do?
Speaker 2 (22:37):
And to your point, Amelia, like, the reason trampoline parks
are so popular is because what are we to do
on a rainy day? Tell me what we are to
do other than turn the television on. So I think
it's like that. There is an element of risk with
any physical play. But if we want children and adults
and human beings to be physically active and engage in
the world, then every now and then we're going to
(22:59):
break a bone. That's a very unpopular thing.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
I would argue that this is more low risk than
them going down those burning hot slides in the middle
of summer, oh, where they could end up with rashes down.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
This is interesting, Stacy, you have just hit my third rail,
which is playgrounds. Yes, because we're in this funny limbo
land right now. Because risk taking is seen as desirable
for kids, we all want to raise risk takers, and
yet we don't actually want our children to take any risks.
And these contradictions played out in a very interesting situation
(23:30):
for me. Recently, I went to a playground in Bury
in New South Wales, which the Daily Mail has described
as Australia's most dangerous playground. So naturally I read that
and I had to go there.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Your son saw it and was like, take me there immediately.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
He's a risk taker, On't I a good parent? Doctor Becky.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
At least thirty parents have reported broken bones, fractures, burns
and other serious injuries to kids at that playground. I
don't quite understand the burns. I don't want to know.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
But this playground is actually the vanguard of this new
style of playground which does experiment with risk taking. So
it's got a faster flying fox, it's got a higher
piece of climbing equipment. It's got a bizarre giant beer
barrel that you till roll around in. There's no beer,
don't worry.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
But what I found interesting there were there were these
signs that said that you were not allowed to help
your children on the play equipment. It said your children
know their own limits and they will play safely within them.
The minute you were helping a child climb up to
the next level of a climbing structure, you are putting
them in danger. You're putting them in a potentially unsafe
situation because you're pushing them beyond their limits.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
What does this all add up to. How do we
figure out the right amount of risk.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
That's fascinating because I think people do do that and
don't realize that the hovering and the not allowing the
confidence to grow and that kind of thing can actually
cause harm. And you point to as well the revolution
in kids playgrounds, which is I remember when I was
at school, a girl fell off the monkey bars and
there was a something was hanging out when she did it,
(24:57):
and like elbow through arm, like horrific break. Now you
looked at that equipment and went, that is actually avoidable.
Like there are such regulations, which is really really positive
from the floor being a little bit more bouncy and
not being so high and all that kind of stuff.
That's great, But I still think that we've got to
accept that our kids are gonna get hurt sometimes. And
(25:20):
with this too, I found the point pertinent that it
is far less risky to jump on a home trampoline
than in a trampoline park. So the issue in your
trampoline park is that it's often the little kids that
the smaller kids that get hurt by the bigger kids
who jabble, bounce, them or land on them, and there
are no springs, so you think it would be fine.
That's not what's hurting them. That's you know, spinal injuries
(25:43):
or the crap that you hear way safer on a trampoline.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
All the springs at home, I have to add, are
hurting them. The nutritions wanted me to make that clear.
Mine at Hope is like a padded cell. I love
sending my daughter.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Out of the trail one with the big netting.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Oh yeah, big netting. But I was actually hoping that
this was going to catch on because my pelvic floor
is not what it used to be, and my daughter
wants me on the trampoline with her a lot. So
I was happy to be discover courage from getting on
there for safety reasons.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
And so of course what you have to tell your
daughter is I've read the safety research because I'm such
good mother, and you should only have one person at
a time. That's true, because that's when we get dangerous.
So mummy's gonna scroll on her phone.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Way.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
It is time for our recommendations of the week, Stacey,
I want you to go first.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
What have you got for okay? Mine? This week is
very random it's a recipe, except it doesn't really exist.
I'm a terrible cook, but making this for dinner always
makes me look like I'm great. And I will bring
it in here for leftovers at least once a week,
and everyone thinks I'm really fancy. Everyone asked me to
tell them what it is, and it's so basic that
I don't even need to write it down for you
(26:53):
or send you a link, because I can just tell
you in one sentence. So it's just lamb mince instead
of beef mince, and I just do cumin, paprika and
cinnamon and tomato paste. You don't need measurements.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
That's in my cupboard right now.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
They coat I could do that, just go off vibes,
just whack it all until it looks right to you.
Salt and pepper if you wish, don't go crazy. And
then I just cook zucchinis and potatoes in the air
fryer and whack it on top with How am I
cooking the lamb itself? Just in a fry pan? Okay,
just chuck on one of those pan Who does need
step down a millia and I just put taziki on
(27:33):
the top and it's delicious. Last for days, and you
look really talented when you're not.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
I would eat that.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
It's very good, and my daughter actually does eat it,
and she can be a bit pitch pretty good eater,
but she can be a bit piggy. But it's kind
of mild enough that most kids, I think would eat it.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
I have a confession, which is that my nearly two
year old has never eaten meat, not not for a preference.
She will not put meat in her mouth. And it
has been my goal to try and get something because
this is.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Cinnamon makes it taste like dessert.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Cinnamon's always That's what I do with the veggies. I
think that I could get some lamb into her that way.
I'm going to try it. How about your Millia?
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Mine is an attempt to answer the question that has
been running through this show, which is if our children
are not allowed on the screens, and they're not allowed
on the trampolines and the dfks who need to keep
their hands busy, I have a potential answer for you.
I was recently in a children's museum in San Francisco,
(28:30):
which I know sounds very fancy, but as listeners will
be aware, when you travel with children, all you do
when you go to a new place is you type
playgrounds or children's museum into Google Maps, and then you
end up going there every single day of.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Your holiday, which is precisely what we did.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
We went to the Children's Museum and they had a
brilliant thing there that took me immediately back. You know
when you see something that just immediately gives you a
flashback to your childhood.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
I love that when that happens. It was a spirograph.
So this was the things that look like tongs.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Yes, I need a visual of this. I'm going to
questa con jesse did I go.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
To This is a device straight out of the eighties.
It's not even the nineties. I think this was nineteen
eighties technology. Like we're talking Alan Bond, We're talking Australia
winning the America's Cup. This is what we're talking about here.
But it was cutting edge at the time. And basically
what it was was two pieces of plastics in a
(29:27):
circle shape, and you put one circle inside the other
and the circles have rings with teeth, and then you
use the rings to create the most perfect geometric shapes.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
So basically you.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Can create these utterly mesmerizing almost trippy patterns with the
different spirographs, and I, of course leapt on this at
the Children's Museum, and being a DFK, did not want
to leave when I was told by other members of
my party that we needed to go to another room.
And then I promptly bought a travel tin.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Very cute.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
You can very easily travel with it, as the name suggests,
take it to a restaurant and it's just a little
tin with a spirographs in. It takes some paper, just
use a regular pen or a pencil, and you will
find it very soothing. I guarantee it's almost meditative to
create these geometric shapes and then hopefully one day, fingers
classed your children will find them soothing as well.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
I have gotten really into coloring and lately because I'm
doing it at the same time as as learner, and
I'm like, this is quite.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Yeah, this is there's something in that we lost the art.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Yeah yeah. And I'm doing like my cross hatching and
like my shading, and then she comes and.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Up and I'm like, back off, kid, back off.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
My recommendation is eat, sleep, repeat. Have either of you
listened to this podcast?
Speaker 1 (30:47):
A great podcast.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
I love it. So I was talking before about Kelly
McCarran and she is on Your Beauty. She's been on
a bunch of MUMMYA podcasts, and she has been making
this podcast with Key Researls, who also used to be
on This Spill, used to work with Mummy Out. And
I have loved this podcast since it first came out.
And it's really hard to explain why because I generally
(31:08):
don't listen to a lot of parenting podcasts, but this
is It feels really warm, it feels really friendly. There's
no judgment. They are very vulnerable about their own experiences,
but then it's very relatable. So for example, there have
been episodes about is my toddler a bully? One of
my favorites was be honest, how bad was it going
(31:28):
from one to two? Like the Transition. Keeve recently shared
her second birth story. I could listen to birth stories
all day, every day.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
I just love that.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
It can be really helpful. Sometimes they speak to experts.
They actually started off independently and they've just come on
to the Mummeya Network. I've been yellnked for years. Get
those girls on our network. They are just so so
good and so finally they are. They've gotten new art.
It's just brilliant. I love what they do. Eat, sleep, repeat.
There's a link now show notes. That is all we
have time for on Parenting out Loud today. We will
(31:59):
see you next Saturday.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
See you at the Trampoline part. Bye.
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges
the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
is recorded on.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Hello and welcome to our limited series Parenting Out Loud.
I am Jessie Stevens. I am joined by Amelia Lester
here Hello, and Mamma MIA's deputy editor, Stacey Hicks.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Hello.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
We're here to talk about some of the stories that
dominated the week, because if parents are thinking about it,
we are talking about it. On today's show, Do you
have a DFK that stands for a deeply feeling kid?
And Doctor Becky knows how to spot one? But is
there really any such thing? And the stunning decline of
the preference to have boys apparently girls are very much
on trend. Why plus are you and Trampoline Denial? We
(01:02):
read the most shocking article about Trampoline's and are desperate
to debrief.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
But first, in case you missed it, one of the
big stories on MoMA Mia this week was about a
woman who abandoned her family to live on her own
and now we're all a little bit jealous. In an
interview with Katie Powers, author and mother of two Monique
Ben told her spoke very candidly about the moment she
was staying at her family's home in North Queensland and
just decided to never go back to her life in
(01:29):
New South Wales.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
I feel like a very relevant detail here was the
age of her children. That's what I scrolled to be, like,
how old are we're talking to? And four are we talking?
Speaker 1 (01:38):
When can I leave? She had two teenage sons. But
she said days turned into weeks and she just sent
her husband an email and said, that's it. I'm done
with carrying the mental load. I want to live on
my own. I'm not divorcing you. I just don't want
to live in the same house as you anymore.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
See I thought when I first read this and it
described the suns as growing, I sort of thought, this
is a semantics exercise.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
If she's leaving.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Home, specifically leaving her husband and her children are large
looking after themselves, it's up to her whether or not
she calls it divorce. But it feels a little bit
like she's separating from her husband.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Yeah, and that's what she said. She said that he
was initially surprised and kind of making sure she hadn't
gone mad and had a breakdown or something more serious
had happened, but that he actually came around to it
and supported her and was like, that's okay. Well they
visit each other now regularly, so a couple of times
a year they'll go and see the other one and
they just say the dynamic works. But she acknowledges. She said,
(02:38):
I know that this could not work for all people,
mostly because most people don't have two houses to go between.
We couldn't get very far. We chose to leine you
didn't have another bedroom. Yeah, exactly exactly. So she is
doing this from a very privileged position. But yeah, she said.
People do say is there adultery involved? Is there some reason?
And she said, I actually love him so much more
(02:59):
now than when we were living under the one roof,
So that's why they do it.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
It's the most taboo thing a woman can do anytime.
I've read a few books recently that have this theme,
and it's like, when you're confronted with that, readers get
really triggered and just like the thought. I mean, when
a man does it, we're horrified, but when a mother
leaves her children or her husband, that's seen as particularly
(03:25):
kind of I don't know, it's subverting the maternal nature
of her role. But I think the interesting question is
like what leads to that, and also the amount of
people that clicked on it is kind of going there's
some fascination with this decision. And clearly it was years
upon years of resentment of taking on the mental load
(03:46):
to such a point that it just overflows and you.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Just can't do it anymore. Yeah, she said, it just
got to the point where she couldn't not leave. She
said it felt like that was the only option and
that she had to be prepared for whatever his reaction
was to that. But luckily he was okay with it,
so maybe he was feeling the same way.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Do you have a deeply feeling kid? Are you a
deeply feeling kid? I am doctor Bem. Doctor Becky is
a clinical psychologist and an icon for millennial parents, and
she published a video to her three point three million
followers recently and here is what she said.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Right now, raise your hand. If you were told that
you were dramatic when you were a kid, raise your hand.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
If you were told you're making a big deal out
of nothing, raise your hand.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
If you were told things like you're ruining this for
the family. I have news for you.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
I have a feeling you are a deeply feeling kid.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
I have a feeling you might have a deeply feeling kid.
Deeply feeling kids are more porous to the world. They
truly do feel things more intensely. More comes in and
more comes.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Out, which yes, means very intense tantrums and escalations. Deeply
feeling kids sometimes experience their feelings as threats.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
It's like they're being attacked.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
I need initial reactions. What do you think do you
put much stock in a deeply feeling kid?
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Am I allowed to say that I hate this?
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Tell me why you hate it?
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Isn't Dr Beckyt just reminding us all of our subjectivity
as human that we all feel things.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Whether or not we show it to the world or not. Look.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
I think doctor Becky's success boils down to the fact
that she has identified the fundamental truth that we need
to treat our kids like humans and Okay, sometimes I
need a reminder of that.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Well, will co sign yes?
Speaker 3 (05:28):
When I scream at my child, put your socks on,
go to the toilet and brush your teeth.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Would I say that to my partner? No? I probably wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
She will putty sucks on a brush.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
That's true, but that's I think why she's so loved,
and look, I don't want to I don't want to
yuck anyone's yum. I know many people who say that
doctor Becky has really helped them break generational cycles of trauma.
And I really like how that she emphasizes you need
to handle your own feelings before dealing with your childs,
and that includes figuring out if you yourself are a DFK.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
But ultimately, this clip just irritates me because she is
selling your product, and she is trying to come up
with a label that could conceivably be applied to just
about everyone. Am I wrong?
Speaker 3 (06:16):
That?
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Okay, that's how I feel because when it's like highly
sensitive person or you'll often hear someone say I just
experience the world a little more deeply than I'm an
you know what I am? I'm an overthinker, And it's
like the no, no, You just have closer proximity to
your thoughts and your feelings than anyone else's, so we
imagine that our own inner worlds are far more complicated
(06:38):
than anyone else's because I can't access yours. I'm like amerely,
it's pretty simple She's just here with a smile on
her face. Me very very complicated, Stacy, Do you have
any I agree.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
I felt very seen and attacked in equal measure because
I am definitely a DFK. I am someone who will
cry when they see someone alone in a restaurant, despite
the fact that person is probably having a great time
alone in the restaurant. I project those feelings onto them.
I'm that person. But you have to say, pull yourself together.
You should not need to be upset by this. And
(07:09):
so I do think that my emotions are probably a
bit closer to the surface, I would say, than other people's,
But that doesn't mean that I feel more deeply than
another person. But I do feel conflicted because I have
to admit when I saw doctor Becky's videos and I
heard this label, it did kind of give me some
level of comfort to put a name to something I
(07:31):
feel like i'm a little bit different to other people with,
and also a term for something that I think my
child experiences. On the other hand, I don't want to
pigeonhole her as this particular type of person, and I
think that's where the danger comes with all the labels,
if it.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Lends itself to treating our child with like more empathy.
And I mean, I've got a two year old. Where
you go, I don't know many even tempered two year
olds who are really good with their feelings and have
really quite muted feelings about yogurt. She has quite strong
feelings about yogurt. But in saying that, what I worry
about is the labeling. And I'm not talking about die
(08:09):
no sees necessarily, but even I look at my daughter
and the moment I think she's shy, she does something
that suggests maybe she's not, or the moment I think
she's really gentle, that's when she'll bite. You know, Like, kids,
by their nature, are in a process of evolution, and
I worry that by putting any kind of expectation or
(08:32):
label on them, it becomes self fulfilling.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Yes, I worry about the impact on kids, and I
worry about the impact on parents as well. So, okay,
you've established that your kid is deeply feeling. How does
that flow into how you treat them? I think what
it leads to is this idea that you have to
prioritize their feelings above your own or even above your
own schedule. So I found this CBC article that nicely
(08:56):
summarized the back class to doctor Becky and sort of
gets it where I'm at on this, which is gentle
parenting too rough on parents.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Now, I should say that doctor Becky is.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Probably doesn't identify as a gentle parenting acolyte, but she's
definitely a j it. And basically the idea is that
in in stressing the importance of acknowledging children's feelings sometimes
above all else, it makes it really hard for parents.
They constantly feel like they're falling behind. And sometimes you
do have to be the bad guy, and sometimes you
(09:27):
just don't have time for the feelings and you just
have to get out the door. And so I worry
about both the children's side of it and the parents'
side of it when we're labeling kids in this way
and giving your child the label of a DFK doesn't
stop that behavior from occurring. Like you can't just be
in the shops going just look away, she's throwing products
at you because she's a DFK. It won't change what's
(09:48):
going on. So having it is not very useful. Yeah,
So what I wonder why do people respond to this? Then?
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Why do you think there's vineous thing too. Anytime on
the site on Mamma Mia. Anytime on Mamma Mia that
we write about something that is a term or a
theory or gives a name to something that's happening in
the world, people love it. People will flock to that,
And I think it's just about kind of tying a
neat little bow around something that they're may be grappling with.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Is it also confirming our sense that our child is unique?
Which all our children are genuinely unique and are genuinely special,
But these titles suggest like there is something that you're
seeing in your kid that makes them different, because she's
not saying that all kids are DFK. She's saying that
only some are. And it also I think it then
(10:37):
makes us feel like, Okay, now that I have a
DFK doctor, Becky is going to teach me some strategies.
And I will give her a lot of credit in
this because she's really straightforward. And we've talked on this
show before about how for a lot of mums and dads,
they don't have a community that might teach them strategies.
Like I'm really close to my mum and she'll often
tell me something that will help with parenting, like I'm
(10:58):
doing this for the first time, and doctor Becky provides
that for people. She has something she talks about sturdy.
Have you heard this?
Speaker 1 (11:04):
What that?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
So she taught her big thing is like a parent
needs to be sturdy, not souper, her authoritarian, not entirely gentle,
but sturdy suggests you're something that a child can lean on.
You know your values, you know what the limitations are,
you know the rules, but you're also there's some flexibility
in that. And I quite like there are a lot
(11:25):
that pops up from doctor Becky and I'm like, yeah,
I like that, I'll use it. But at the same time,
you're right, she's selling a course, she's selling a book,
she's selling her expertise.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
And I also think she's kind of pathologizing parenting itself.
Like some sometime around the point at which parenting became
a verb, we decided that to be a parent meant
you had to absorb all the evidence and all the
latest studies and all the greatest thinkers on parenting. And
I think part of that I have a theory. I
think part of the reason why doctor Becky and others
(11:56):
have such slavish devotion online is because it's a bit
of a pendulum swing response to the style of parenting
that a lot of millennials grew up with. So, for instance,
doctor Becky says you should never do chimeouts because they
shame the child, and this comes from her grounding in
modern psychotherapy. She's also a psychologist, so there's clearly some
(12:16):
evidence to back that. On the other hand, pediatricians advocate
for timeouts, some American pediatricians, according to the American Academy
of Pediatrics, because it has been shown to be effective
in rewiring kids' behavior. So different experts are going to
come up with different assessments for what the best cognitive
approaches are. It's clear why doctor Becky doesn't like the timeouts.
(12:39):
At the same time, it can be a tool in
the toolbox. And for millennial parents, I think there's a
sense of we want to do better than our parents,
we want to correct their perceived failings. But the truth
is no one can be a perfect parent.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Have you ever watched a gender reveal video where the
parents are clearly trying to hide their disappointment, Well, it
was probably because they found out they were having a
boy in a surprising turn of events. There is now
an increasing preference by parents to have little girls, when
it was once very much the opposite. Article in the
Economists this week showed this is a trend happening globally,
even in countries like China, where the now abolished one
(13:16):
child policy once meant that pregnancies resulting in girls were
routinely aborted in favor of boys who would carry on
the family line and look after parents in old age.
To put it into context, the article said, so globally,
among babies born in the year two thousand, one point
six million girls were missing from the number you'd expect
given the natural sex ratio at birth. This year, that
(13:38):
number is likely to be only two hundred thousand, which
is still a lot, but it's falling. In America and Scandinavia,
families are now more likely to have another child if
their first child is a son in the hopes of
getting a girl, and seventy five percent of Japanese couples
who only want one child say they'd prefer it be
a daughter. They're also seeing it for adoptive parents. Some
(13:59):
agencies now charge higher fees for placing female children as
the demand is so much higher. I think there's a
few reasons for this gradual about turn. So I'd love
to know why you think there's a sudden surge in
girl power.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
I reckon there's a few things right because historically boys
have offered families and economic advantage, right, and with gender
equality and getting women in the workplace, that's meant that
what boys offering that way, girls can now offer.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
I think it's definitely an interesting point that the article
makes about people feeling as though a daughter will look
after them into old age. I've actually heard people say that,
But I'm going to throw out a totally random theory
that's just mine. I wonder if there is more of
a focus on centering what the mother wants.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
So we're talking about things like gender disappointment, which we've
never talked about before because of you know, just the
public conversation going on to TikTok and Instagram.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
I don't know anyone personally who's experienced, yes.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
So Kelly McCarran spoke really candidly about this after the
birth of her son, and I found it really refreshing.
I hadn't heard that term before. And you know, she
loves she's such a great mum. She loves her son
more than anything in the world, but her initial response was, Oh,
I didn't realize how much I wanted a girl, and
I think that by centering mother's voices, we're probably hearing
(15:21):
that more. The question is why would a mother want
a daughter, ever a son, And I wonder if it's
we feel like we know what we're doing because we
were a daughter, and also some deeply psychological sense of
wanting to reparent ourselves, like I have this thing I
wonder if I go, I want to re enter my
own childhood, and maybe I feel I can better do
(15:43):
that with a girl than a boy, which I don't
think is true, but it could just be what our
guts tell us. What do you think, Amelia Well?
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Anecdotally, I will say that in the new South Welles
public school system which I currently am experiencing, girls are
very much the white whale. It seems there are just
not enough girls to go around to sprinkle the fairy
dust of good behavior across classes. In public primary schools
they are better by There are also fewer of them
(16:11):
than boys in public schools in my experience, and I
wonder if part of this is because I certainly know
women who have put their daughters in single sex education
from kindergarten, whereas I don't know anyone who's chosen to
do that with boys. Not to say it doesn't happen,
but it's because of that conventional wisdom that girls have
contagiously good behavior and that will translate to boys as well.
(16:34):
So there is this sense now where to have girls
in your child's class, and the more girls you have
in your child's class, the more valuable because the class
is likely to be better run, less disrupted, less loud.
It all makes me a bit sad, to be honest.
I have a boy and then a girl. And when
this happened, I have a friend who is French who
(16:54):
said to me, ah.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Leschois du ro.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
I said, what is that and she said, it's the
choice of kings, because going back historically in France and
in other monarchies around the world, kings wanted a boy
first to secure the lineage in that very sexist of
monarchy's everywhere, and then a girl because girls, you know,
they dress more nicely and the people love looking at
their clothes, and that's what royal families wanted. And I
(17:20):
guess it's understandable that as women are delaying childbirth, and
as people are having fewer kids, particularly in rich countries,
it's not surprising that they want the choice that is
considered easier, because we do consider girls to be easier.
For all those reasons. It still makes me sad, though,
and I wonder if part of it is that we
(17:42):
can see that the boys are not okay. They are
behind in school, they are behind in life. We see
TV shows and movies about in cell culture, it's the
men are not okay. And I feel like we're making
choices based on what we think boys and girls are
rather than what they are capable of or what they
could be, which, after all, isn't that the point of parenting?
Speaker 2 (18:04):
I know, I thought that after adolescence. I thought, I
don't think a lot of people are watching that show
going I can't wait to parent a teenage boy like
it feels terrifying in a lot of ways. How about you, Stacy,
what do you thinks behind it?
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Yeah? I think there's an assumed closeness between a daughter
and their mother, which is not necessarily the case. It's
a sweeping generalization, but I think for women, when you
are thinking about the fact that, especially if you're having children,
later that you may only have one child, or you're
making that decision that you're definitely only having one child.
That you go, well, I'm familiar with that, like, I
know what to do there. I'll be the mother's side
(18:36):
for when the grandchildren come. I'll be the mother's side
for the wedding.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
Like I feel like a mother and a daughter being close.
Everyone goes, oh, isn't that sweet? A mother and a
son are close, And it's Mormon baits and psychos.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
That's so true. That's so true. It's seen as toxic
somehow if a mother is super close with their son.
So I think I think maybe that's part of it.
An article this week rocked my world, turn me upside down,
potentially cause some bones to break.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Let me explain. It was called are You in Trampoline Denial?
And it was from the cut. Like the author, Katie
Arnold Ratliffe, I have long heard rumors that trampolines are
in fact, incredibly dangerous. I am rolling my eyes as
I say this. For many years now, the American Academy
of Pediatrics has said that no trampoline is safe for
(19:23):
children under six, and that no trampoline outside a gymnastics
program is safe for children over six. But again I
had rolled my eyes at this, I had silently judged
those pediatricians.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
As kill joys.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
And I held my child's fifth birthday party at a
trampoline park.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Did everyone come or were there some who protested?
Speaker 3 (19:40):
No, everyone came because they did a thing about trampoline
parks and five year old boys.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Say what you will about boys. They need to burn
up some energy, and that's what trampoline parks are for. However,
I can no longer dismiss the rumors because this piece
had some absolutely horrifying statistics in them. I'm going to
share three. First statistic, an estimated three hundred thousand trampoline
injuries a year occur in the United States.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
That's so many.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Statistic two twenty percent of the involve head injuries, including concussions.
Statistic three eleven percent of injuries at trampoline parks are significant.
And you know when doctors use the term significant, they're
actually they actually mean significant, as opposed to when I
use the term significant when I can't decide what decision
(20:27):
about what to eat for lunch, So this is major.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
And then also the waiver.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
You sign, which I'm sure none of us have read
because it's a PDF and it goes on for many,
many pages. Turns out that waiver basically signs the way
your and your child's life should anything terrible happen at
the trampoline park. So where does this leave this? And
what am I meant to do with my children on
rainy winter days to stop them from climbing all over
my furniture?
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Are we all just kill joys? Now? Give me a
permission to believe this, Jesse.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Look, I I think there's an element of killed joy
to it, because I went all right following this. Firstly,
this article was incredibly percuisive. I read this and it
talked about the trampoline fracture, like the particular break double bounce,
the double bounce, and.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
You explain the double bounce, so the.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
You go, chess, no, no, you expected.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
The double bounce is when someone's legs are already coming
down straight and then another person bounces and it makes
their legs compound and cause a fracture.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
And the break is exactly the break I had, so
I know how bad it is. It's the break of
the tibia and you actually hear a pop is and
you need surgery and stuff like and for kids to
get the break is even worse than adults because of
something about growth plates and like growth plate, growth plates.
You don't want to hear growth plates.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
You don't you don't want to hear growth plates.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
I'm like, I thought it was just a cheeky little
broken wrist, But no, that one, no no fun. So
I read it and went, no, this is really bad. Okay, okay,
no trampoline. But then I thought, where do we draw
the line, because what are kids do outside trampolines scooters? Well,
my sister broke a wrist on a scooter.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
But there's way more dangerous sure surely, surely skateboarding.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
Also, how do we balance this against what Jonathan Yeah
was telling about how the online world is so much
more dangerous than the offline world.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Was he not talking about trampoline.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Parks, sir, exactly? And this is the thing is, it's like, okay,
so we take them out of the skateboarding parks. They
know you should never go to the beach, don't go
near a body of water, No roller skating, jumping castles,
rock climb.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
I forget the screen, Oh any sport?
Speaker 2 (22:29):
No screen?
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Is like, what are they meant to be doing with
their time. Don't say read a book.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
They don't want to read a book.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
What do you do?
Speaker 2 (22:37):
And to your point, Amelia, like, the reason trampoline parks
are so popular is because what are we to do
on a rainy day? Tell me what we are to
do other than turn the television on. So I think
it's like that. There is an element of risk with
any physical play. But if we want children and adults
and human beings to be physically active and engage in
the world, then every now and then we're going to
(22:59):
break a bone. That's a very unpopular thing.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
I would argue that this is more low risk than
them going down those burning hot slides in the middle
of summer, oh, where they could end up with rashes down.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
This is interesting, Stacy, you have just hit my third rail,
which is playgrounds. Yes, because we're in this funny limbo
land right now. Because risk taking is seen as desirable
for kids, we all want to raise risk takers, and
yet we don't actually want our children to take any risks.
And these contradictions played out in a very interesting situation
(23:30):
for me. Recently, I went to a playground in Bury
in New South Wales, which the Daily Mail has described
as Australia's most dangerous playground. So naturally I read that
and I had to go there.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Your son saw it and was like, take me there immediately.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
He's a risk taker, On't I a good parent? Doctor Becky.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
At least thirty parents have reported broken bones, fractures, burns
and other serious injuries to kids at that playground. I
don't quite understand the burns. I don't want to know.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
But this playground is actually the vanguard of this new
style of playground which does experiment with risk taking. So
it's got a faster flying fox, it's got a higher
piece of climbing equipment. It's got a bizarre giant beer
barrel that you till roll around in. There's no beer,
don't worry.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
But what I found interesting there were there were these
signs that said that you were not allowed to help
your children on the play equipment. It said your children
know their own limits and they will play safely within them.
The minute you were helping a child climb up to
the next level of a climbing structure, you are putting
them in danger. You're putting them in a potentially unsafe
situation because you're pushing them beyond their limits.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
What does this all add up to. How do we
figure out the right amount of risk.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
That's fascinating because I think people do do that and
don't realize that the hovering and the not allowing the
confidence to grow and that kind of thing can actually
cause harm. And you point to as well the revolution
in kids playgrounds, which is I remember when I was
at school, a girl fell off the monkey bars and
there was a something was hanging out when she did it,
(24:57):
and like elbow through arm, like horrific break. Now you
looked at that equipment and went, that is actually avoidable.
Like there are such regulations, which is really really positive
from the floor being a little bit more bouncy and
not being so high and all that kind of stuff.
That's great, But I still think that we've got to
accept that our kids are gonna get hurt sometimes. And
(25:20):
with this too, I found the point pertinent that it
is far less risky to jump on a home trampoline
than in a trampoline park. So the issue in your
trampoline park is that it's often the little kids that
the smaller kids that get hurt by the bigger kids
who jabble, bounce, them or land on them, and there
are no springs, so you think it would be fine.
That's not what's hurting them. That's you know, spinal injuries
(25:43):
or the crap that you hear way safer on a trampoline.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
All the springs at home, I have to add, are
hurting them. The nutritions wanted me to make that clear.
Mine at Hope is like a padded cell. I love
sending my daughter.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Out of the trail one with the big netting.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Oh yeah, big netting. But I was actually hoping that
this was going to catch on because my pelvic floor
is not what it used to be, and my daughter
wants me on the trampoline with her a lot. So
I was happy to be discover courage from getting on
there for safety reasons.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
And so of course what you have to tell your
daughter is I've read the safety research because I'm such
good mother, and you should only have one person at
a time. That's true, because that's when we get dangerous.
So mummy's gonna scroll on her phone.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Way.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
It is time for our recommendations of the week, Stacey,
I want you to go first.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
What have you got for okay? Mine? This week is
very random it's a recipe, except it doesn't really exist.
I'm a terrible cook, but making this for dinner always
makes me look like I'm great. And I will bring
it in here for leftovers at least once a week,
and everyone thinks I'm really fancy. Everyone asked me to
tell them what it is, and it's so basic that
I don't even need to write it down for you
(26:53):
or send you a link, because I can just tell
you in one sentence. So it's just lamb mince instead
of beef mince, and I just do cumin, paprika and
cinnamon and tomato paste. You don't need measurements.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
That's in my cupboard right now.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
They coat I could do that, just go off vibes,
just whack it all until it looks right to you.
Salt and pepper if you wish, don't go crazy. And
then I just cook zucchinis and potatoes in the air
fryer and whack it on top with How am I
cooking the lamb itself? Just in a fry pan? Okay,
just chuck on one of those pan Who does need
step down a millia and I just put taziki on
(27:33):
the top and it's delicious. Last for days, and you
look really talented when you're not.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
I would eat that.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
It's very good, and my daughter actually does eat it,
and she can be a bit pitch pretty good eater,
but she can be a bit piggy. But it's kind
of mild enough that most kids, I think would eat it.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
I have a confession, which is that my nearly two
year old has never eaten meat, not not for a preference.
She will not put meat in her mouth. And it
has been my goal to try and get something because
this is.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Cinnamon makes it taste like dessert.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Cinnamon's always That's what I do with the veggies. I
think that I could get some lamb into her that way.
I'm going to try it. How about your Millia?
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Mine is an attempt to answer the question that has
been running through this show, which is if our children
are not allowed on the screens, and they're not allowed
on the trampolines and the dfks who need to keep
their hands busy, I have a potential answer for you.
I was recently in a children's museum in San Francisco,
(28:30):
which I know sounds very fancy, but as listeners will
be aware, when you travel with children, all you do
when you go to a new place is you type
playgrounds or children's museum into Google Maps, and then you
end up going there every single day of.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Your holiday, which is precisely what we did.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
We went to the Children's Museum and they had a
brilliant thing there that took me immediately back. You know
when you see something that just immediately gives you a
flashback to your childhood.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
I love that when that happens. It was a spirograph.
So this was the things that look like tongs.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Yes, I need a visual of this. I'm going to
questa con jesse did I go.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
To This is a device straight out of the eighties.
It's not even the nineties. I think this was nineteen
eighties technology. Like we're talking Alan Bond, We're talking Australia
winning the America's Cup. This is what we're talking about here.
But it was cutting edge at the time. And basically
what it was was two pieces of plastics in a
(29:27):
circle shape, and you put one circle inside the other
and the circles have rings with teeth, and then you
use the rings to create the most perfect geometric shapes.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
So basically you.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Can create these utterly mesmerizing almost trippy patterns with the
different spirographs, and I, of course leapt on this at
the Children's Museum, and being a DFK, did not want
to leave when I was told by other members of
my party that we needed to go to another room.
And then I promptly bought a travel tin.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Very cute.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
You can very easily travel with it, as the name suggests,
take it to a restaurant and it's just a little
tin with a spirographs in. It takes some paper, just
use a regular pen or a pencil, and you will
find it very soothing. I guarantee it's almost meditative to
create these geometric shapes and then hopefully one day, fingers
classed your children will find them soothing as well.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
I have gotten really into coloring and lately because I'm
doing it at the same time as as learner, and
I'm like, this is quite.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Yeah, this is there's something in that we lost the art.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Yeah yeah. And I'm doing like my cross hatching and
like my shading, and then she comes and.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Up and I'm like, back off, kid, back off.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
My recommendation is eat, sleep, repeat. Have either of you
listened to this podcast?
Speaker 1 (30:47):
A great podcast.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
I love it. So I was talking before about Kelly
McCarran and she is on Your Beauty. She's been on
a bunch of MUMMYA podcasts, and she has been making
this podcast with Key Researls, who also used to be
on This Spill, used to work with Mummy Out. And
I have loved this podcast since it first came out.
And it's really hard to explain why because I generally
(31:08):
don't listen to a lot of parenting podcasts, but this
is It feels really warm, it feels really friendly. There's
no judgment. They are very vulnerable about their own experiences,
but then it's very relatable. So for example, there have
been episodes about is my toddler a bully? One of
my favorites was be honest, how bad was it going
(31:28):
from one to two? Like the Transition. Keeve recently shared
her second birth story. I could listen to birth stories
all day, every day.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
I just love that.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
It can be really helpful. Sometimes they speak to experts.
They actually started off independently and they've just come on
to the Mummeya Network. I've been yellnked for years. Get
those girls on our network. They are just so so
good and so finally they are. They've gotten new art.
It's just brilliant. I love what they do. Eat, sleep, repeat.
There's a link now show notes. That is all we
have time for on Parenting out Loud today. We will
(31:59):
see you next Saturday.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
See you at the Trampoline part. Bye.
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