June 6, 2025 • 35 mins
Big news, friends. Jessie Stephens and Amelia Lester are bringing a whole new vibe to parenting podcasts with this brand new mini series: Parenting Out Loud.
If you're deep in the trenches, Parenting Out Loud will help make your world feel just that little bit bigger with the week's hot topics explored, examined and digested. Because if parents are thinking about it, we're talking about it.
On this week's episode, grandparents get a long overdue performance review, we unpack the article that stopped us in our tracks, take a deep dive into Mormon Wives (and mothers), and investigate the playroom that got Amelia all riled up.
Plus, recommendations: A fool-proof recipe, a genius toy to get kids off screens and a book that shines a light on sibling relationships.
Come join the conversation. New eps drop Saturdays. No shoulder spit-ups required.
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Recommendations
Jessie wants you to bake these oat bars and recommends the toy, Tonies.
Amelia wants you to read Intermezzo by Sally Rooney.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Parenting Out Loud. I am Jesse Stevens and I am
joined by Amelia Lester. We are embarking on a mini
series all about what's happening this week through the lens
(00:37):
of being a parent. And to be clear, we are
not going to be talking about wheatbix in our hair
or vomit on our shirts. This is not your mother's group.
It's a series that we hope will make your world
feel just a little bit bigger. In short, if parents
are thinking about it, we are talking about it. Welcome
Amelia Lester. How old are your kids now?
Speaker 1 (00:57):
My kids are five and seven. They're both in school,
which has given me an unexpected sense of order and
serenity because I know where they'll be most days and
I don't have to think about it anymore.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
And it's not all the day care fees, No.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
It's very cost efficient. I moved back to Australia from
the US, where I've spent the last twenty years on
and off last year, and I guess I should say that.
In my day job while my children are at school,
I am a journalist.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
And I have a toddler as well as a niece
who I claim as my own. And you may know
my voice from Mummy are out Loud or I also
hosted The Baby Bubble recently with my twin sister Claire
and Hallo Bump, which is all about pregnancy. I'm on
Mummeyre out Loud thirty three times a week, so I'm
sure you know me well. On today's show, the grandparents
(01:44):
are not okay. In fact, they're reaching their limit. Since
when did grandparenting become a full time job? Plus the
boy who came back, the searingly honest article that got
us thinking about what it means when your world as
a parent implodes and the reaction of the people around you.
But first, Mormon Wives, We've got Ballerina Farm, We've got
(02:07):
this secret lives of Mormon Wives, We've got tradwife culture.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
People keep grabbing my arm and telling me I have
to watch this, And as someone who loves selling sunset,
but that's kind of the extent of my reality TV immersion,
I need you to explain why it's suddenly the zeitgeist.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
I have looked at what it is about this moment
that has made Mormon culture so prominent, right because there
was an article in the Washington Post end of last
year which was all about how twenty twenty four was
the year of Mormon women specifically, and this is what
the article said that Mormonism, and to be clear, that's
the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ in the
(02:46):
Latter day Saints, and it emphasizes a Christian view of
God and Jesus while incorporating sort of unique doctrines and practices.
So as someone who grew up Catholic, recognize some things,
don't recognize a lot. But it pairs very well with
social media and capitalism.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
But isn't it like all about not drinking coffee or
alcohol and wearing odd undergarments?
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Yes, well, I think think that that's what's interesting is the
way in which it is engaging with the present moment,
right because part of Mormonism is about the performance of purity.
It's about performance, which obviously lends itself to social media.
It is about perfectionism, which you'll see in like a
Ballerina farm representation where it's all the matching clothes of
(03:31):
the kids, and the beautiful hair and the beautiful home.
And there's something quite alluring about that.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
So Ballerina farmers Mormon.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Yes. And it's the prairie dress as well, which is
there's something that feels quite nostalgic about it because in
the US, probably even more than here, but in Australia too,
parents are kind of broken. So the idea that you
live in this stunning farmhouse with all the kids you
could ever want, and you barely need to leave the house, yes,
(03:59):
really works.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
I'm in.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
And the other thing is that Mormon women traditionally are
not meant to work outside the home. Now social media
has given them a loophole which means that they can work.
They can actually make a heap of money and never
walk out their front door. So they're doing the cooking
and the sewing and all of that quite aspirational stuff
and we're all consuming it. And making money is part
(04:25):
of Mormonism in a way, it's not part of Catholicism, right.
It's like God blessed you if you walk around with
something very fancy.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
And because it's very intertwined with it's a very American religion.
It was found in the United States, I believe in
Upstate New York. I have seen the Book of Mormon. Yes,
so I'm bringemic back knowledge to this and it makes
sense that therefore it would be more comfortable with capitalism.
So is this show about them sort of performing their
(04:53):
purity on social media because that sounds a bit boring.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Well, I think that it's about the hypocrisy. And I
suppose this is what makes it an interesting rich text
on social is that we know what the doctrine says,
and we know what the Bible says, and then you've
got people putting botox in their face, or drinking lots
of soft drink, or doing.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Lots of soft drinks. My god, this is crazy talk Jesse.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Or doing certain drugs. It's like the loopholes that they
find while also looking stunning. And also I read this
line in The Atlantic recently that said America loves mothers
more than it loves women, and I thought, there's something
about these Mormon mothers that we find particularly aspirational. If
you're in that, then you get a lot more license
(05:40):
to sort of muck around with the other stuff. But
it does make it addictive.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
I also read that there's a whole subplot of something
called soft swinging. Yes, And I don't think they mean playgrounds.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
No, no. And I think that it's like there are rules,
but they're weird rules.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Right, And I think part of this also, I agreed
completely on the tradwife element, and it so speaks to
the anxieties of our times and not knowing whether the
robot overlads are going to take over, that we're all
diving deep on people who are perfecting their bread recipes.
But the soft swinging, I think is also part of
an exploration of polyamory that is happening amongst elder millennials
(06:22):
right now.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Oh so true. And that's the thing is that Mormon
wife slash Mormon women are mothers, but they get to
be sexy, and we'd all like to still be a
bit sexy. But this vision of motherhood that we've been
left with is kind of like your asexual, your drab,
And so there is something that feels almost aspirational, being like,
(06:45):
look at their incredible sex lives. Yes, and they're pretty
and they're great mums.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
It's prairie a dressment make it sexy. It makes total
sense to me. Now, are grandparents underperforming it's time for
a performance review. A recent article in The Atlantic unpacks
a sentiment amongst millennials that their parents are not chipping
in enough to help with their families. But then it
argues that contrary to that perception, grandparents are doing a lot.
(07:09):
What they're doing more than ever. In fact, we're in
the era of something called peak grandparenting. Let me outline
this argument because I'm very curious to see whether you agree, Jesse.
It argues that parents struggle has become grandparents struggle because
grandparents now aren't just the disciplinarians or the playmates that
they used to be, but they're co parents. And a
sociologists quoted in the article says that the grandparents fall
(07:31):
into three categories. You're ready for them. Yes, there are
those who look for every opportunity to look after their grandkids.
Those people are called Anne Stevens.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yes, exactly right. That is my mother to a TEA.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Second category, those who don't want to do any care
of grandkids. I don't actually know many grandparents who fit
this description. I do, and we'll get to them. Okay, good, Yeah.
And a third category, which I really that's what I
want to talk about today, is grandparents who want to
be involved, but they also want to set boundaries. Some
strategies that these grandparents try they commit only to doing
(08:03):
fun things with the kids. That means no dentist visits,
no math tutoring, just the fun stuff. They semi regularly
ignore their adult child's cause and they help out only
on certain days. And they do this because they're tie it.
It's only very recently that we've developed this idea that
grandparents should be always available. And oh yeah, looking back
on my childhood in the nineties, I realized that was true.
(08:25):
It's a very recent phenomenon. It's basically happened for reasons
you might expect. A lot more people are working outside
the home now, parenting itself has intensified, and people are
living longer. So Jesse, what do you make of this
rise of grandparenting as a full time job? And what
do you say to these grandparents who say, I love
to be around my grandchildren, but I also need my
(08:46):
me time.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
I worry about the ones who don't have the guts
to say that, because I think that you can easily
be exploited and then feel very exploited. But we talk
about the sandwich generation, right the generation that has elderly
parents who might require care and kids. But now there's
like a club sandwich generation, which is that those kids
have grandkids, so they're kind of small between these three generations.
(09:12):
And let's be honest who we're talking about here. Are
we talking about grandparents or are we talking about grandmothers?
Because the economy relies in order for mothers to go
back to work, they require their mothers or their in
laws to give up some paid work to give up,
whether it's exercise, whether it's socializing, all of those things
(09:33):
which are like sacrifices after having done that for a
period of their lives, which is a big ask. So
I think that the economy and I remember, I think
it was last year JD. Vance was being asked about
the situation in the US and he said, maybe grandparents
could step up more. So you want them to fill
holes in the economy or the fact that childcare is
(09:55):
prohibitively expensive, or that every family requires two parents to
be working pretty close to full time. You're then relying
on the unpaid work of this generation. I think it's
about how much of it is at choice, right, Because
in some situations, if you've got a mum who says
we can't pay the bills unless I go back five days,
(10:18):
and you have someone in their seventies doing five days
a week like that is an enormous ask. And I
don't think culturally we've decided yet whether child rearing is
work or not. Like I think that our conception of
work is really like confused to an extent.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
That's so true.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
What's your relationship like with your parents and help?
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Well, this article really opened my mind because I moved
from the US back to Australia last year in part
because I wanted to spend more time with my parents,
and I wanted my children to spend more time with
my parents. And that has been such a rich and
rewarding experience, I think for all parties, and I think
(11:04):
for all parties, it has also been a challenging experience.
It's been both those things, in part because my parents
have had to make trade offs. I don't want to
speak for them, but I can see and observe that, yes,
they have gained the company and the friendship with their
grandchildren that is so special, which can't be nurtured in
(11:25):
once a year trips, but they've also had to give
some things up. So the first and biggest thing they've
had to give up is they're retired. They used to
enjoy traveling. They kind of feel like they can't travel
like they used to now because I need them because
both my partner and I work full time, and although
both my children are in school, there's just so many
(11:47):
cracks that you have to paper over or stand over.
And so, for instance, anytime one of my kids is sick,
I called them, and I hate doing that because when
it comes to planned social events, I never call them.
I have a little bit of a rule, which is
that if I'm doing something fun, I have to get
a babysitter because it's not fair to use them as
(12:09):
a sort of unpaid labor sitting around my place while
my kids are asleep. I want them to be able
to do fun things with them and to develop their relationship,
and doing bed time not fun, not to develop in
a relationship. So I get babysitters for that. But when
they're sick and have to come home from school, I
do have to call them because I've got to make
(12:30):
money and do my job. So I'm aware that that
means that, for instance, my mom might want to go
to her exercise class as you mentioned, or my dad
might want to do his projects and then they have
to drop them to pick up the kids from school. Yeah,
and that sense of freedom that is being sacrificed, I
think is real. And I really loved that this piece
(12:50):
articulated that in a non judgmental way, because I think
this is a conversation we're only just beginning to have.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
And just because you love someone doesn't mean it's not work.
And there was some really good points. I think it
was in this article. It might have been another one
that was more Australian focused, and it was saying that
one in three grandparents Austria help out with childcare. But
there's been studies done about grandparents and life expectancy and
how it really helps with cognition, really helps with not
(13:20):
feeling lonely, and how those connections can give you know,
some people are totally new lease on life.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
And yet when I throw this back at my parents,
this is helping with your cognition.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Exactly, I'm giving you ten ex three years, I've given
you purpose. But on the other hand, I was speaking
to a family friend recently who said that she moved
cities so that she couldn't be asked because she was
starting to feel so trapped by the expectations. And I
think she was in a bind because you off for
(13:53):
child one a certain level of care, so you go,
I'll look after them a day a week. But then
their second child comes, maybe their third child comes. But
then what if they got siblings, and then you've got
seven and you're like, I'm doing fourteen days a week
with children, and I don't have the retirement that I wanted.
I don't have any of the freedom. And then I
think it also puts adult children who are adult parents
(14:15):
in a situation of going maybe they feel entitled to
that privilege, Like I know, I'm not sure what your
experience is, but when I speak to friends about I'm
almost self conscious about how much help I get because
I know that it is such a privilege and not
everyone is afforded it. Either they have lost their parents,
and this is a particularly difficult time to feel that loss,
(14:35):
because they know their parents would have loved to their
parents can't due to disability due to mobility issues, or
their parents don't want to, and that stinks.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Yeah, it must be hard. I'm curious for you because
you do have two grandmothers who by all accounts pretty
enthusiastic about the task. Yeah, but that must put a
bit of pressure on you to just be a little
aware of how much you're asking them to do. You know,
they're never going to say no. You know they're always
going to express delight about being asked. But do you
(15:07):
have to therefore second guess how much you're are them
to do?
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Yes? And the big one has been my twin sister
had a baby five months after me, So we now
constantly check in and go how many days.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
I've got to coordinate.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
We've got to coordinate because Mom's not gonna tell us,
and so I got no, she's not doing five days
between us. She'll do one day with me and maybe
she'll do one or two days with you. But I
know her exercise class is on a fast and we
are not asking her. We're very careful about that because
we want to protect her because if we ask, she
will say yes. And that relationship, like watching my daughter's
(15:44):
relationship with her two grandmothers is one of the greatest
jows of my life. Like it is, oh my god,
they love each other so so much. But you're also like,
you need a break.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Yeah, they need rest. One thing I thought was really
interesting is that there was a study done in twenty
twenty one of British grandmothers and apparently all these British
grandmothers were like, why do I have to supervise these
children on everything? They were like, I've got a supervisor there, homework,
I've got to provide them with educational activities, and all
of them were taken aback by how intensified grandparenting has become.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
I've had to go. My sister and I have talked
about this. When they are in the care of grandparents.
I think it's different if it's paid. I think it's
different if it's someone who's babysit whatever.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Then you can just tell them exactly what you want, want.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
To what you want, and there's a really clear exchange
going on. But when it is family, and you also
know that they raise their own kids like they do
have a good cv, you just go is your rules.
Like I called Mum the other day and it was
ten am and Luna had a bickie in each hand
this movie and I just went.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Waite was.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Between her eggs. It was the gross motor skills. That's
what Grandma's teaching.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Are you truly able to surrender control like that?
Speaker 2 (16:58):
I am in that situation. There are moments where it's
hard because I go, when she's with me, she's not
getting wikis, But I go, it's my rules when I'm
looking after her and the grandparents, and maybe it's my
Nan lived with me growing up, and interestingly, I didn't
feel like she was a parent in that she didn't
that supervision, that do your homework, That was never that.
(17:18):
But she was just this presence, a companion I thought
Nan was. And I laughed with Mum sometimes I go,
Luna thinks you're just a friend who comes over. She
doesn't know it's care.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
I am so glad you raised this because I think
this is the other thing that has changed over the generations.
I also had my grandmother living with us for much
of the time, and she and I were really good friends.
And she did not supervise my homework. She cut up
cubes of cheese for me to watch the Barcelona Olympics. Yes,
I am that old and then get smart always gets
(17:49):
in the afternoon.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Mash did you ever have mash? On the Burjoe's catchphrase
was the other one? And I loved old people.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Loved them, and I'd eat my cubes of cheese and
then she make me cupcakes. She wasn't providing me with
any educational resources. Now, she wasn't even saying you should
really do your piano practice. That fell to my mother.
And yet I think now I do have this sort
of expectation that my parents are going to, for instance,
tell my son to do his piano practice. And why
did that happen?
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Yeah, that's so true. I think that we became more
intensive and with that we're projecting it because we're more anxious.
But I notice it with my mum. Sometimes my daughter
will be doing something and Mum will walk me out
the front door and will be standing on the thing
and I'm like, mate, who's watching. Luna wrote, well, like,
I'm so intense in that situation, But I go, you
raised two sets of twins. Yeah, we got out of
it somehow, and I think she'll be fine. There was
(18:41):
an article published in The Guardian last month that I inhaled.
It was so beautifully written and so rich with insights
and detail about one of the most difficult things a
parent could ever go through, And it's funny. I often
actively avoid this content, but this was going around. My
sister sent it to me and told me I had
to read it, and once I started, I couldn't put
(19:02):
it down. It was stunning. The story was written by
Archie Bland and it's called The Boy Who Came Back,
the Near Death and Changed life of my son Max,
and it tells the story of how when Archie's son
Max was seven weeks old, he stopped breathing in his sleep.
It was described as an interrupted Sid's situation is what
I think happened. They had a night nanny at the time,
(19:25):
her name is Gina, who realized he'd gone quiet, ran
into his parents and they immediately called an ambulance. Against
the odds, he was revived and as a result, Max
lives with a disability. It's unclear he's not yet too
how this will impact him going forward. They know he
has cerebral palsy, which impacts speech and gross motor function
(19:47):
amelia separately. Without us even discussing it, you had also
read this article. What do you think it was that
resonated with people so much and made it so deeply
kind of affecting.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
There are so many things in this piece that we
could talk about for hours. One aspect of it that
I want to talk about is this social impacts and
effects of having a sick child, because it's not the
same as arching his family. Every situation is of course different,
but having had a child in hospital for an extended period,
(20:22):
there were parts which really resonated with me. What I
found interesting about it was how isolating it was, because
you'd think that when you have a child in the hospital,
everyone rallies around, and yes they did. You know, there
were meal trains, people were constantly checking in with me.
It's not that people didn't care, but it's that no
one knows what to say. And the fact is that
(20:45):
nothing anyone says is the right thing, and.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
In fact, a misstep or a clumsy statement does so
much harm that I think that people get scared. And
that's what I found in this, And maybe I looked
at why I read it, and I think I've had
friends in that situation with sick kids, go through awful,
awful trauma of all different kinds, and you do the
gymnastics of trying to find the right thing to say.
(21:10):
And I was looking through this going I found it
really interesting what was the wrong thing to say? And
also he said so early on in the piece, basically,
I don't want to be the story that you look
at that then makes you really grateful for your own kids.
That's really irritating.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Don't pull out the aphorisms, don't say things to him like, well,
I'm gonna hug my own children tighter tonight.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
I hate that. I hate that. I suppose there's a
truth in that that whenever we consume things about parenting
or kids, we're always seeing our own is empathy, but
it also almost dehumanizes his own son, and I found
he had a few things that people said to him,
like comparing going, oh, well, you know, my son was
(21:52):
really slow to sit.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Up, or like, my son's just forever throwing his porridge
around the room. Yeah, he's a mess too.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
As though it's the same when it absolutely isn't. But
I had someone close to me with a child in
hospital for a time recently, and again I'm not saying
that this is comparable or it's the same situation as
the one depicted in the article. But the power of
this piece is that some of the things Archie describes
so beautifully did feel really familiar, and I hadn't seen
(22:19):
words around them before. It's interesting what you say that
there's people rally, but your focus is so singular, and
I don't think there's anything like it. You are not sleeping,
you have no appetite. It is hell on earth, and
even being in that environment is hell on Earth. Like
to be in an environment with other sick kids is awful.
(22:42):
And so to have him describe it, he describes the
orbits of like you walk out of the hospital and
still people understand this is around a hospital, this is
like serious shit. But then you go into the quote
unquote real world and there's just fury because it's like
you have no idea, how can you go? Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
So basically this happened in twenty twenty, and for that
entire year, I was very aware of the fact that
I was pushing my friends away because anytime they tried
to reach out, I was filled with anger and resentment
that they didn't know what I'd gone through, couldn't understand
what I'd gone through. My life was so much harder
than theirs, and I was just furious at them. And
(23:24):
he pulls out a few things that people said that
really bothered him. So, for instance, one that really got
to me was that he said, don't tell me that
this is scary. Oh, how scary this must be for
you to have your kid in the hospital. And that
got me because that's something that I've said to people.
I would say in hospital, is that must be scary,
because that's what I think is the true thing to say.
(23:45):
But he says it's not scary. Scary is losing your
kid at the shopping mall. This is a whole other
existential level. And another thing that he doesn't want people
to say is to talk about how it makes them
grateful for their own lives and their own children, and
just let's talk about where we're at. So then he
mentioned some things that were helpful. One of them was
(24:08):
a friend of his pulled his son aside and put
him in front of the TV with all the other
kids that are social gathering. Didn't make a big fuss
about it, didn't check if that was okay for his
son to be there, just did this thing, this quiet
act of grace that enabled both the father to get
along with his socializing, but also for his son to
feel like a normal child amongst the other children. And
(24:29):
I thought that was such a beautiful, practical thing that
someone did for him.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
I love that and I think there's a sense when
someone's in hospital that the people around you really just
want it to be over. So saying that it's scary
being positive in a way that's actually not not realistic,
just makes a person feel really unseen. People just want
the good news. That's why they're checking in because they
want the good news, and it's like it's not here.
(24:55):
And when it's when there's ongoing struggles, I think, yeah,
people lean on cliches, probably because I don't know what
to say, but I think it's helpful to kind of go,
here's what you do say.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
I didn't want people texting me for precisely that reason,
saying how are things because it's exhausting to have to
update people with uncertain news. A lot of stuff that
happens in hospitals is uncertain, Like that's why I realized
through this process, like, well, this test came back, and
they don't really know what's going on, and a lot
of the time they didn't know what's going on, and
so it's hard to give people definitive updates. So I
(25:26):
would find myself sending these group emails and asking people
just to read but not right back, because then I
have the labor of having to respond to them. It
took me a long time to get over the anger
that I felt, a lot longer than it took for
my child to get better. And I just really appreciate
how he went there with this piece. He didn't hold back.
(25:49):
He could see that people were trying to help. But
it's also important that people understand how hard it is
to accept and receive that help at a time like this.
If you've ever wondered how a secession character might design
a playroom, the Wall Street Journal has you covered. A
recent Wall Street Journal article featured a playroom that's getting
me angry. It's unchire capitalist mother and a tech entrepreneur
(26:12):
father in the New York City neighborhood of the West Village.
They purchased a two bedroom apartment next door to their
four bedroom apartment just to turn it into a retreat
for their young daughters. Okay, I don't know if they've
heard of making a fort with blankets and dining room shares,
but anyway, buying a two bedroom apartment works too.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
When I was a kid, I made that fought and
I put the blankets out, and then I lit a candle,
and I'll tell you there was holes in the bottom
of those chairs. My mom still remembers.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
That I live in a two bedroom apartment. That's my
two young children's retreat. Anyway, Setting aside the extravagance of
it all, what is making people incensed, and I guess
by people I mean me, is that there are no
colors in this retreat. At the request of the Color
of everth clients. The designers embraced monastic restraint. The Raw
(27:01):
Street Journal rights it's very muted. The interior designer is
quoted as saying, so let me paint you a picture, Jesse,
because this is a podcast, hand tufted rugs, a custom
mural chairs from Copenhagen, and fifty shades of beige, or
as the designers call it, oatmeal, flax, cream, stone, rope,
bone and ash. Why is everything to do with kids
(27:22):
suddenly looking like a Skims catalog.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
I love beige. I will launch a passionate defense beigey.
It gets such a bad rap. And I bought like
linen for my bed recently and it was oatmeal with flax.
It was those shades that I went, that's perfect. And
here's the reason everything to do with children is over stimulating.
(27:47):
In my house, despite my love of the neutrals. I've
got a red Elmo, I've got a blue Bluey. They
yell in the middle of the night sometimes reason because
their batchries go off. There is plato, there are crayons there,
and then you know, if the TV goes on, don't
even talk to me about the colors that come up.
We've got the wiggles, like, there is so much color.
(28:07):
It is an assault on the senses. Kids, is an
assault on the senses. It is very overstimulating, quite like
a nursery tour that I get given on on social
media sometimes, and I love when they walk in and
it's also neat, and.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
They've always got these special custom designed cubes. Yes, yes,
And I tried doing that in my house and I
made signs with my apartment and I made signs for
them for the kids, like this is my son's toys,
this is my daughter's toys. Do you know how long
it took for that whole taxonomy to be completely tossed aside.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
That's what's so funny is that the naivety of a
nursery is always like they barely go in there for
the first first little bit, and then the way that
people line up all the nappies and I think, oh,
you never do that again.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
You never do the lining up of the name.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
It's just and the like washing of the onesies and
the putting them back in. But the neutral, I mean,
I will also say that it's a real benefit for
hand me downs, like because we have a lot of beige.
I have friends who've had boys girls.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Whatever's true. Let's jender neutral.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Very ginger neutral, which is great. And if you don't
know the sex of beige is also really good to
throw it in. I mean, look, I'm not too essentialist
about gender. I think girls can wear blue and boys
can wear pink. But some people that's why we go
very yellow during that period. I think the beige. I've
seen an attack on beige, and I just think I
think we can allow it and embrace more of the beige.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
You know, you are convincing me here. And another thing
about beige or oatmeal or flax or the cereals is
that you can throw things on them and it's sort
of just all blends into the sort of beige camouflage
of it all. Vomit male, yes.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
A light pool. I think you just smudge it in
it does look like it's tonal. It's actually tonal.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
As my husband is fond of saying it's either blood
semen or urine blood. I hope it's urine.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
We should say your husband of the doctor relevant.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
He deals with bodily fluids.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
For a living Amelia. It is time for our recommendations
of the week, and look the raw. This is that
it's recommendations that might apply to parents parenting adjacent. That
is the rule. What is your recommendation?
Speaker 1 (30:16):
It is a book. It is called Intermetso it is
by Sally Rooney. She's a really unknown niche writer. You
may not have heard of her. No, she's in fact
probably the most famous writer of AH generation.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
I guess I have to say I have a confession
about this book. I started it and I put it down.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
No, I get it. I get it. I'm here to
sell you on it. It's not a new book. It
came out last year and it got very mixed reviews. Yeah,
I was not going to read it. I didn't enjoy
her last book. I just sort of felt like I
understood the stick of awkward Irish people falling in and
out of love. Did not need to read that.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
The love awkward Irish people.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
But this was like, it's just too much. You know,
this is like her third or fourth book, and I
get it. But then I just picked it up at
the library and needed something to read. And I think
it's my favorite of her books, and it's absolutely the
best book I've read all year. And I want to
say what I think people miss They missed the point
to me. I think that this is a book about
(31:13):
two brothers. It's about the relationship between brothers, and I
love that because I have a brother and I'm always
reading books about relationships between sisters. And I think that's
because novels these days are read and written by women,
so naturally I think we're going to gravitate towards stories
about women. But this really made me think about and
(31:34):
reflect on my relationship with my brother, and it helped
me to understand it a little bit more. I love
that Sally Rooney made such a valiant attempt to live
inside the minds of two men. This never happens.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
She did do that very very well, and the inner
world of the men came across as very authentic well.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
To be honest, I have no idea if she did
it well or not. Because I'm not a man, But
to me it was just really compelling. Whether or not
it was accurate or not, I will have to leave
that to the men. But it did give me a
sense that I understood my brother better and my relationship
with him a little better. So basically it is about
Peter and Ivan Kubeck. They are brothers who live in Dublin,
(32:16):
their fathers just died. They're both negotiating romantic relationships with women.
It is in fact about awkward Irish people. I need
to make that clear up front. But I loved getting
an insight or feeling like I got an insight into
how men think about women and how men think about
their siblings. And that's why I'm recommending it.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Maybe I should pick it back up. I have two recommendations.
My first recommendation is a Tony box.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Have you heard of those?
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Yes, I have one, and I need to dig it up.
Remind me why it's good.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Okay, So the tony box is like a soft box thing,
and then you get Tony's what they're called, and we've
got like a gruffalo or a pepper pig, and you
put it on top and it either sing songs or
tells stories or whatever. And the idea is the way
that a lot of people talk to me about it
was you get them off screens. It's really interactive and
(33:10):
they love it, and so it's a great way for
them to feel really entertained by Pig without looking at
a screen. And as we know, that is parenting in
twenty twenty five. Just finding weaselways around screens.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Is Luna's favorite paper.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
No, her favorite is the Dog because it does round
and around. There's some song that she loves doing because
she does the dances to it, but we have to
do it every night. There's one that does lullabyes, so
we put that on before bed. And full disclosure, this
was a gift, so I didn't buy this myself, and
then I looked up how much it was, and that's
why I was a little bit self conscious about my
recommendation because they cost I think it's about one hundred
(33:45):
and eighty nine dollars for a box, and the tonys
are twenty nine dollars each, so I understand that that's
a lot. And I always get funny when like toys
are recommended that are really expensive and it feels like
they would make parenting easier, Like, I just don't love that.
I also think from what I've heard, they last for
years and years.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
We've had us for years, Yes.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
And it appeals to a five year old in a
different way than it appears to a two years true.
I'm going to check another one out there, which is
a recipe Amelia I your kids pickI eaters. I know
we're not meant to use that term, but are they.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Pis not really to be honest, But.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
People who hesitate, I'm like, they're fine. It's the ones
that are like my child.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Oh, let me tell you the food and it's like,
my child eats four foods.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Let's just say that. The list in my phone of
foods my Charlie's the God send for us have been
these things called oat bars and this would work for kids.
That sounds fibrous, yes, yes, fibrous and has nutrients. And
I'm just like, if she has one of those, at
least she had something. It's like a really good music.
But I would eat one. And so it's oats. You
put in bananas, The more ripe they are, the better,
(34:54):
and then you can literally throw in like carrots or
dates or prunes or one time I throw on some
beetruths and then you check at the oven and they last.
I make them every week and you can freeze them
and whatever, and Luna lives off them, and every time
she eats them, I feel like a good because I
know it has things in it that is would. There
is a link in the show notes. It's I do
not cook. There are about two things I can cook
(35:15):
and this is one of them. And it has saved
my life over the last years.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
And do you know what else is greed about it?
It matches your preferred color scheme.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
It does because it's smushed into the lounge. It doesn't
matter Beije lounge brilliant. It's fine. That is all we
have time for on Parenting Out Loud today, but we
will be back next Saturday morning. See you then, Bye bye.
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Parenting Out Loud. I am Jesse Stevens and I am
joined by Amelia Lester. We are embarking on a mini
series all about what's happening this week through the lens
(00:37):
of being a parent. And to be clear, we are
not going to be talking about wheatbix in our hair
or vomit on our shirts. This is not your mother's group.
It's a series that we hope will make your world
feel just a little bit bigger. In short, if parents
are thinking about it, we are talking about it. Welcome
Amelia Lester. How old are your kids now?
Speaker 1 (00:57):
My kids are five and seven. They're both in school,
which has given me an unexpected sense of order and
serenity because I know where they'll be most days and
I don't have to think about it anymore.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
And it's not all the day care fees, No.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
It's very cost efficient. I moved back to Australia from
the US, where I've spent the last twenty years on
and off last year, and I guess I should say that.
In my day job while my children are at school,
I am a journalist.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
And I have a toddler as well as a niece
who I claim as my own. And you may know
my voice from Mummy are out Loud or I also
hosted The Baby Bubble recently with my twin sister Claire
and Hallo Bump, which is all about pregnancy. I'm on
Mummeyre out Loud thirty three times a week, so I'm
sure you know me well. On today's show, the grandparents
(01:44):
are not okay. In fact, they're reaching their limit. Since
when did grandparenting become a full time job? Plus the
boy who came back, the searingly honest article that got
us thinking about what it means when your world as
a parent implodes and the reaction of the people around you.
But first, Mormon Wives, We've got Ballerina Farm, We've got
(02:07):
this secret lives of Mormon Wives, We've got tradwife culture.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
People keep grabbing my arm and telling me I have
to watch this, And as someone who loves selling sunset,
but that's kind of the extent of my reality TV immersion,
I need you to explain why it's suddenly the zeitgeist.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
I have looked at what it is about this moment
that has made Mormon culture so prominent, right because there
was an article in the Washington Post end of last
year which was all about how twenty twenty four was
the year of Mormon women specifically, and this is what
the article said that Mormonism, and to be clear, that's
the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ in the
(02:46):
Latter day Saints, and it emphasizes a Christian view of
God and Jesus while incorporating sort of unique doctrines and practices.
So as someone who grew up Catholic, recognize some things,
don't recognize a lot. But it pairs very well with
social media and capitalism.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
But isn't it like all about not drinking coffee or
alcohol and wearing odd undergarments?
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Yes, well, I think think that that's what's interesting is the
way in which it is engaging with the present moment,
right because part of Mormonism is about the performance of purity.
It's about performance, which obviously lends itself to social media.
It is about perfectionism, which you'll see in like a
Ballerina farm representation where it's all the matching clothes of
(03:31):
the kids, and the beautiful hair and the beautiful home.
And there's something quite alluring about that.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
So Ballerina farmers Mormon.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Yes. And it's the prairie dress as well, which is
there's something that feels quite nostalgic about it because in
the US, probably even more than here, but in Australia too,
parents are kind of broken. So the idea that you
live in this stunning farmhouse with all the kids you
could ever want, and you barely need to leave the house, yes,
(03:59):
really works.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
I'm in.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
And the other thing is that Mormon women traditionally are
not meant to work outside the home. Now social media
has given them a loophole which means that they can work.
They can actually make a heap of money and never
walk out their front door. So they're doing the cooking
and the sewing and all of that quite aspirational stuff
and we're all consuming it. And making money is part
(04:25):
of Mormonism in a way, it's not part of Catholicism, right.
It's like God blessed you if you walk around with
something very fancy.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
And because it's very intertwined with it's a very American religion.
It was found in the United States, I believe in
Upstate New York. I have seen the Book of Mormon. Yes,
so I'm bringemic back knowledge to this and it makes
sense that therefore it would be more comfortable with capitalism.
So is this show about them sort of performing their
(04:53):
purity on social media because that sounds a bit boring.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Well, I think that it's about the hypocrisy. And I
suppose this is what makes it an interesting rich text
on social is that we know what the doctrine says,
and we know what the Bible says, and then you've
got people putting botox in their face, or drinking lots
of soft drink, or doing.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Lots of soft drinks. My god, this is crazy talk Jesse.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Or doing certain drugs. It's like the loopholes that they
find while also looking stunning. And also I read this
line in The Atlantic recently that said America loves mothers
more than it loves women, and I thought, there's something
about these Mormon mothers that we find particularly aspirational. If
you're in that, then you get a lot more license
(05:40):
to sort of muck around with the other stuff. But
it does make it addictive.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
I also read that there's a whole subplot of something
called soft swinging. Yes, And I don't think they mean playgrounds.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
No, no. And I think that it's like there are rules,
but they're weird rules.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Right, And I think part of this also, I agreed
completely on the tradwife element, and it so speaks to
the anxieties of our times and not knowing whether the
robot overlads are going to take over, that we're all
diving deep on people who are perfecting their bread recipes.
But the soft swinging, I think is also part of
an exploration of polyamory that is happening amongst elder millennials
(06:22):
right now.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Oh so true. And that's the thing is that Mormon
wife slash Mormon women are mothers, but they get to
be sexy, and we'd all like to still be a
bit sexy. But this vision of motherhood that we've been
left with is kind of like your asexual, your drab,
And so there is something that feels almost aspirational, being like,
(06:45):
look at their incredible sex lives. Yes, and they're pretty
and they're great mums.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
It's prairie a dressment make it sexy. It makes total
sense to me. Now, are grandparents underperforming it's time for
a performance review. A recent article in The Atlantic unpacks
a sentiment amongst millennials that their parents are not chipping
in enough to help with their families. But then it
argues that contrary to that perception, grandparents are doing a lot.
(07:09):
What they're doing more than ever. In fact, we're in
the era of something called peak grandparenting. Let me outline
this argument because I'm very curious to see whether you agree, Jesse.
It argues that parents struggle has become grandparents struggle because
grandparents now aren't just the disciplinarians or the playmates that
they used to be, but they're co parents. And a
sociologists quoted in the article says that the grandparents fall
(07:31):
into three categories. You're ready for them. Yes, there are
those who look for every opportunity to look after their grandkids.
Those people are called Anne Stevens.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yes, exactly right. That is my mother to a TEA.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Second category, those who don't want to do any care
of grandkids. I don't actually know many grandparents who fit
this description. I do, and we'll get to them. Okay, good, Yeah.
And a third category, which I really that's what I
want to talk about today, is grandparents who want to
be involved, but they also want to set boundaries. Some
strategies that these grandparents try they commit only to doing
(08:03):
fun things with the kids. That means no dentist visits,
no math tutoring, just the fun stuff. They semi regularly
ignore their adult child's cause and they help out only
on certain days. And they do this because they're tie it.
It's only very recently that we've developed this idea that
grandparents should be always available. And oh yeah, looking back
on my childhood in the nineties, I realized that was true.
(08:25):
It's a very recent phenomenon. It's basically happened for reasons
you might expect. A lot more people are working outside
the home now, parenting itself has intensified, and people are
living longer. So Jesse, what do you make of this
rise of grandparenting as a full time job? And what
do you say to these grandparents who say, I love
to be around my grandchildren, but I also need my
(08:46):
me time.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
I worry about the ones who don't have the guts
to say that, because I think that you can easily
be exploited and then feel very exploited. But we talk
about the sandwich generation, right the generation that has elderly
parents who might require care and kids. But now there's
like a club sandwich generation, which is that those kids
have grandkids, so they're kind of small between these three generations.
(09:12):
And let's be honest who we're talking about here. Are
we talking about grandparents or are we talking about grandmothers?
Because the economy relies in order for mothers to go
back to work, they require their mothers or their in
laws to give up some paid work to give up,
whether it's exercise, whether it's socializing, all of those things
(09:33):
which are like sacrifices after having done that for a
period of their lives, which is a big ask. So
I think that the economy and I remember, I think
it was last year JD. Vance was being asked about
the situation in the US and he said, maybe grandparents
could step up more. So you want them to fill
holes in the economy or the fact that childcare is
(09:55):
prohibitively expensive, or that every family requires two parents to
be working pretty close to full time. You're then relying
on the unpaid work of this generation. I think it's
about how much of it is at choice, right, Because
in some situations, if you've got a mum who says
we can't pay the bills unless I go back five days,
(10:18):
and you have someone in their seventies doing five days
a week like that is an enormous ask. And I
don't think culturally we've decided yet whether child rearing is
work or not. Like I think that our conception of
work is really like confused to an extent.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
That's so true.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
What's your relationship like with your parents and help?
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Well, this article really opened my mind because I moved
from the US back to Australia last year in part
because I wanted to spend more time with my parents,
and I wanted my children to spend more time with
my parents. And that has been such a rich and
rewarding experience, I think for all parties, and I think
(11:04):
for all parties, it has also been a challenging experience.
It's been both those things, in part because my parents
have had to make trade offs. I don't want to
speak for them, but I can see and observe that, yes,
they have gained the company and the friendship with their
grandchildren that is so special, which can't be nurtured in
(11:25):
once a year trips, but they've also had to give
some things up. So the first and biggest thing they've
had to give up is they're retired. They used to
enjoy traveling. They kind of feel like they can't travel
like they used to now because I need them because
both my partner and I work full time, and although
both my children are in school, there's just so many
(11:47):
cracks that you have to paper over or stand over.
And so, for instance, anytime one of my kids is sick,
I called them, and I hate doing that because when
it comes to planned social events, I never call them.
I have a little bit of a rule, which is
that if I'm doing something fun, I have to get
a babysitter because it's not fair to use them as
(12:09):
a sort of unpaid labor sitting around my place while
my kids are asleep. I want them to be able
to do fun things with them and to develop their relationship,
and doing bed time not fun, not to develop in
a relationship. So I get babysitters for that. But when
they're sick and have to come home from school, I
do have to call them because I've got to make
(12:30):
money and do my job. So I'm aware that that
means that, for instance, my mom might want to go
to her exercise class as you mentioned, or my dad
might want to do his projects and then they have
to drop them to pick up the kids from school. Yeah,
and that sense of freedom that is being sacrificed, I
think is real. And I really loved that this piece
(12:50):
articulated that in a non judgmental way, because I think
this is a conversation we're only just beginning to have.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
And just because you love someone doesn't mean it's not work.
And there was some really good points. I think it
was in this article. It might have been another one
that was more Australian focused, and it was saying that
one in three grandparents Austria help out with childcare. But
there's been studies done about grandparents and life expectancy and
how it really helps with cognition, really helps with not
(13:20):
feeling lonely, and how those connections can give you know,
some people are totally new lease on life.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
And yet when I throw this back at my parents,
this is helping with your cognition.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Exactly, I'm giving you ten ex three years, I've given
you purpose. But on the other hand, I was speaking
to a family friend recently who said that she moved
cities so that she couldn't be asked because she was
starting to feel so trapped by the expectations. And I
think she was in a bind because you off for
(13:53):
child one a certain level of care, so you go,
I'll look after them a day a week. But then
their second child comes, maybe their third child comes. But
then what if they got siblings, and then you've got
seven and you're like, I'm doing fourteen days a week
with children, and I don't have the retirement that I wanted.
I don't have any of the freedom. And then I
think it also puts adult children who are adult parents
(14:15):
in a situation of going maybe they feel entitled to
that privilege, Like I know, I'm not sure what your
experience is, but when I speak to friends about I'm
almost self conscious about how much help I get because
I know that it is such a privilege and not
everyone is afforded it. Either they have lost their parents,
and this is a particularly difficult time to feel that loss,
(14:35):
because they know their parents would have loved to their
parents can't due to disability due to mobility issues, or
their parents don't want to, and that stinks.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Yeah, it must be hard. I'm curious for you because
you do have two grandmothers who by all accounts pretty
enthusiastic about the task. Yeah, but that must put a
bit of pressure on you to just be a little
aware of how much you're asking them to do. You know,
they're never going to say no. You know they're always
going to express delight about being asked. But do you
(15:07):
have to therefore second guess how much you're are them
to do?
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Yes? And the big one has been my twin sister
had a baby five months after me, So we now
constantly check in and go how many days.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
I've got to coordinate.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
We've got to coordinate because Mom's not gonna tell us,
and so I got no, she's not doing five days
between us. She'll do one day with me and maybe
she'll do one or two days with you. But I
know her exercise class is on a fast and we
are not asking her. We're very careful about that because
we want to protect her because if we ask, she
will say yes. And that relationship, like watching my daughter's
(15:44):
relationship with her two grandmothers is one of the greatest
jows of my life. Like it is, oh my god,
they love each other so so much. But you're also like,
you need a break.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Yeah, they need rest. One thing I thought was really
interesting is that there was a study done in twenty
twenty one of British grandmothers and apparently all these British
grandmothers were like, why do I have to supervise these
children on everything? They were like, I've got a supervisor there, homework,
I've got to provide them with educational activities, and all
of them were taken aback by how intensified grandparenting has become.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
I've had to go. My sister and I have talked
about this. When they are in the care of grandparents.
I think it's different if it's paid. I think it's
different if it's someone who's babysit whatever.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Then you can just tell them exactly what you want, want.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
To what you want, and there's a really clear exchange
going on. But when it is family, and you also
know that they raise their own kids like they do
have a good cv, you just go is your rules.
Like I called Mum the other day and it was
ten am and Luna had a bickie in each hand
this movie and I just went.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Waite was.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Between her eggs. It was the gross motor skills. That's
what Grandma's teaching.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Are you truly able to surrender control like that?
Speaker 2 (16:58):
I am in that situation. There are moments where it's
hard because I go, when she's with me, she's not
getting wikis, But I go, it's my rules when I'm
looking after her and the grandparents, and maybe it's my
Nan lived with me growing up, and interestingly, I didn't
feel like she was a parent in that she didn't
that supervision, that do your homework, That was never that.
(17:18):
But she was just this presence, a companion I thought
Nan was. And I laughed with Mum sometimes I go,
Luna thinks you're just a friend who comes over. She
doesn't know it's care.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
I am so glad you raised this because I think
this is the other thing that has changed over the generations.
I also had my grandmother living with us for much
of the time, and she and I were really good friends.
And she did not supervise my homework. She cut up
cubes of cheese for me to watch the Barcelona Olympics. Yes,
I am that old and then get smart always gets
(17:49):
in the afternoon.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Mash did you ever have mash? On the Burjoe's catchphrase
was the other one? And I loved old people.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Loved them, and I'd eat my cubes of cheese and
then she make me cupcakes. She wasn't providing me with
any educational resources. Now, she wasn't even saying you should
really do your piano practice. That fell to my mother.
And yet I think now I do have this sort
of expectation that my parents are going to, for instance,
tell my son to do his piano practice. And why
did that happen?
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Yeah, that's so true. I think that we became more
intensive and with that we're projecting it because we're more anxious.
But I notice it with my mum. Sometimes my daughter
will be doing something and Mum will walk me out
the front door and will be standing on the thing
and I'm like, mate, who's watching. Luna wrote, well, like,
I'm so intense in that situation, But I go, you
raised two sets of twins. Yeah, we got out of
it somehow, and I think she'll be fine. There was
(18:41):
an article published in The Guardian last month that I inhaled.
It was so beautifully written and so rich with insights
and detail about one of the most difficult things a
parent could ever go through, And it's funny. I often
actively avoid this content, but this was going around. My
sister sent it to me and told me I had
to read it, and once I started, I couldn't put
(19:02):
it down. It was stunning. The story was written by
Archie Bland and it's called The Boy Who Came Back,
the Near Death and Changed life of my son Max,
and it tells the story of how when Archie's son
Max was seven weeks old, he stopped breathing in his sleep.
It was described as an interrupted Sid's situation is what
I think happened. They had a night nanny at the time,
(19:25):
her name is Gina, who realized he'd gone quiet, ran
into his parents and they immediately called an ambulance. Against
the odds, he was revived and as a result, Max
lives with a disability. It's unclear he's not yet too
how this will impact him going forward. They know he
has cerebral palsy, which impacts speech and gross motor function
(19:47):
amelia separately. Without us even discussing it, you had also
read this article. What do you think it was that
resonated with people so much and made it so deeply
kind of affecting.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
There are so many things in this piece that we
could talk about for hours. One aspect of it that
I want to talk about is this social impacts and
effects of having a sick child, because it's not the
same as arching his family. Every situation is of course different,
but having had a child in hospital for an extended period,
(20:22):
there were parts which really resonated with me. What I
found interesting about it was how isolating it was, because
you'd think that when you have a child in the hospital,
everyone rallies around, and yes they did. You know, there
were meal trains, people were constantly checking in with me.
It's not that people didn't care, but it's that no
one knows what to say. And the fact is that
(20:45):
nothing anyone says is the right thing, and.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
In fact, a misstep or a clumsy statement does so
much harm that I think that people get scared. And
that's what I found in this, And maybe I looked
at why I read it, and I think I've had
friends in that situation with sick kids, go through awful,
awful trauma of all different kinds, and you do the
gymnastics of trying to find the right thing to say.
(21:10):
And I was looking through this going I found it
really interesting what was the wrong thing to say? And
also he said so early on in the piece, basically,
I don't want to be the story that you look
at that then makes you really grateful for your own kids.
That's really irritating.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Don't pull out the aphorisms, don't say things to him like, well,
I'm gonna hug my own children tighter tonight.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
I hate that. I hate that. I suppose there's a
truth in that that whenever we consume things about parenting
or kids, we're always seeing our own is empathy, but
it also almost dehumanizes his own son, and I found
he had a few things that people said to him,
like comparing going, oh, well, you know, my son was
(21:52):
really slow to sit.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Up, or like, my son's just forever throwing his porridge
around the room. Yeah, he's a mess too.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
As though it's the same when it absolutely isn't. But
I had someone close to me with a child in
hospital for a time recently, and again I'm not saying
that this is comparable or it's the same situation as
the one depicted in the article. But the power of
this piece is that some of the things Archie describes
so beautifully did feel really familiar, and I hadn't seen
(22:19):
words around them before. It's interesting what you say that
there's people rally, but your focus is so singular, and
I don't think there's anything like it. You are not sleeping,
you have no appetite. It is hell on earth, and
even being in that environment is hell on Earth. Like
to be in an environment with other sick kids is awful.
(22:42):
And so to have him describe it, he describes the
orbits of like you walk out of the hospital and
still people understand this is around a hospital, this is
like serious shit. But then you go into the quote
unquote real world and there's just fury because it's like
you have no idea, how can you go? Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
So basically this happened in twenty twenty, and for that
entire year, I was very aware of the fact that
I was pushing my friends away because anytime they tried
to reach out, I was filled with anger and resentment
that they didn't know what I'd gone through, couldn't understand
what I'd gone through. My life was so much harder
than theirs, and I was just furious at them. And
(23:24):
he pulls out a few things that people said that
really bothered him. So, for instance, one that really got
to me was that he said, don't tell me that
this is scary. Oh, how scary this must be for
you to have your kid in the hospital. And that
got me because that's something that I've said to people.
I would say in hospital, is that must be scary,
because that's what I think is the true thing to say.
(23:45):
But he says it's not scary. Scary is losing your
kid at the shopping mall. This is a whole other
existential level. And another thing that he doesn't want people
to say is to talk about how it makes them
grateful for their own lives and their own children, and
just let's talk about where we're at. So then he
mentioned some things that were helpful. One of them was
(24:08):
a friend of his pulled his son aside and put
him in front of the TV with all the other
kids that are social gathering. Didn't make a big fuss
about it, didn't check if that was okay for his
son to be there, just did this thing, this quiet
act of grace that enabled both the father to get
along with his socializing, but also for his son to
feel like a normal child amongst the other children. And
(24:29):
I thought that was such a beautiful, practical thing that
someone did for him.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
I love that and I think there's a sense when
someone's in hospital that the people around you really just
want it to be over. So saying that it's scary
being positive in a way that's actually not not realistic,
just makes a person feel really unseen. People just want
the good news. That's why they're checking in because they
want the good news, and it's like it's not here.
(24:55):
And when it's when there's ongoing struggles, I think, yeah,
people lean on cliches, probably because I don't know what
to say, but I think it's helpful to kind of go,
here's what you do say.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
I didn't want people texting me for precisely that reason,
saying how are things because it's exhausting to have to
update people with uncertain news. A lot of stuff that
happens in hospitals is uncertain, Like that's why I realized
through this process, like, well, this test came back, and
they don't really know what's going on, and a lot
of the time they didn't know what's going on, and
so it's hard to give people definitive updates. So I
(25:26):
would find myself sending these group emails and asking people
just to read but not right back, because then I
have the labor of having to respond to them. It
took me a long time to get over the anger
that I felt, a lot longer than it took for
my child to get better. And I just really appreciate
how he went there with this piece. He didn't hold back.
(25:49):
He could see that people were trying to help. But
it's also important that people understand how hard it is
to accept and receive that help at a time like this.
If you've ever wondered how a secession character might design
a playroom, the Wall Street Journal has you covered. A
recent Wall Street Journal article featured a playroom that's getting
me angry. It's unchire capitalist mother and a tech entrepreneur
(26:12):
father in the New York City neighborhood of the West Village.
They purchased a two bedroom apartment next door to their
four bedroom apartment just to turn it into a retreat
for their young daughters. Okay, I don't know if they've
heard of making a fort with blankets and dining room shares,
but anyway, buying a two bedroom apartment works too.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
When I was a kid, I made that fought and
I put the blankets out, and then I lit a candle,
and I'll tell you there was holes in the bottom
of those chairs. My mom still remembers.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
That I live in a two bedroom apartment. That's my
two young children's retreat. Anyway, Setting aside the extravagance of
it all, what is making people incensed, and I guess
by people I mean me, is that there are no
colors in this retreat. At the request of the Color
of everth clients. The designers embraced monastic restraint. The Raw
(27:01):
Street Journal rights it's very muted. The interior designer is
quoted as saying, so let me paint you a picture, Jesse,
because this is a podcast, hand tufted rugs, a custom
mural chairs from Copenhagen, and fifty shades of beige, or
as the designers call it, oatmeal, flax, cream, stone, rope,
bone and ash. Why is everything to do with kids
(27:22):
suddenly looking like a Skims catalog.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
I love beige. I will launch a passionate defense beigey.
It gets such a bad rap. And I bought like
linen for my bed recently and it was oatmeal with flax.
It was those shades that I went, that's perfect. And
here's the reason everything to do with children is over stimulating.
(27:47):
In my house, despite my love of the neutrals. I've
got a red Elmo, I've got a blue Bluey. They
yell in the middle of the night sometimes reason because
their batchries go off. There is plato, there are crayons there,
and then you know, if the TV goes on, don't
even talk to me about the colors that come up.
We've got the wiggles, like, there is so much color.
(28:07):
It is an assault on the senses. Kids, is an
assault on the senses. It is very overstimulating, quite like
a nursery tour that I get given on on social
media sometimes, and I love when they walk in and
it's also neat, and.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
They've always got these special custom designed cubes. Yes, yes,
And I tried doing that in my house and I
made signs with my apartment and I made signs for
them for the kids, like this is my son's toys,
this is my daughter's toys. Do you know how long
it took for that whole taxonomy to be completely tossed aside.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
That's what's so funny is that the naivety of a
nursery is always like they barely go in there for
the first first little bit, and then the way that
people line up all the nappies and I think, oh,
you never do that again.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
You never do the lining up of the name.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
It's just and the like washing of the onesies and
the putting them back in. But the neutral, I mean,
I will also say that it's a real benefit for
hand me downs, like because we have a lot of beige.
I have friends who've had boys girls.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Whatever's true. Let's jender neutral.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Very ginger neutral, which is great. And if you don't
know the sex of beige is also really good to
throw it in. I mean, look, I'm not too essentialist
about gender. I think girls can wear blue and boys
can wear pink. But some people that's why we go
very yellow during that period. I think the beige. I've
seen an attack on beige, and I just think I
think we can allow it and embrace more of the beige.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
You know, you are convincing me here. And another thing
about beige or oatmeal or flax or the cereals is
that you can throw things on them and it's sort
of just all blends into the sort of beige camouflage
of it all. Vomit male, yes.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
A light pool. I think you just smudge it in
it does look like it's tonal. It's actually tonal.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
As my husband is fond of saying it's either blood
semen or urine blood. I hope it's urine.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
We should say your husband of the doctor relevant.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
He deals with bodily fluids.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
For a living Amelia. It is time for our recommendations
of the week, and look the raw. This is that
it's recommendations that might apply to parents parenting adjacent. That
is the rule. What is your recommendation?
Speaker 1 (30:16):
It is a book. It is called Intermetso it is
by Sally Rooney. She's a really unknown niche writer. You
may not have heard of her. No, she's in fact
probably the most famous writer of AH generation.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
I guess I have to say I have a confession
about this book. I started it and I put it down.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
No, I get it. I get it. I'm here to
sell you on it. It's not a new book. It
came out last year and it got very mixed reviews. Yeah,
I was not going to read it. I didn't enjoy
her last book. I just sort of felt like I
understood the stick of awkward Irish people falling in and
out of love. Did not need to read that.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
The love awkward Irish people.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
But this was like, it's just too much. You know,
this is like her third or fourth book, and I
get it. But then I just picked it up at
the library and needed something to read. And I think
it's my favorite of her books, and it's absolutely the
best book I've read all year. And I want to
say what I think people miss They missed the point
to me. I think that this is a book about
(31:13):
two brothers. It's about the relationship between brothers, and I
love that because I have a brother and I'm always
reading books about relationships between sisters. And I think that's
because novels these days are read and written by women,
so naturally I think we're going to gravitate towards stories
about women. But this really made me think about and
(31:34):
reflect on my relationship with my brother, and it helped
me to understand it a little bit more. I love
that Sally Rooney made such a valiant attempt to live
inside the minds of two men. This never happens.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
She did do that very very well, and the inner
world of the men came across as very authentic well.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
To be honest, I have no idea if she did
it well or not. Because I'm not a man, But
to me it was just really compelling. Whether or not
it was accurate or not, I will have to leave
that to the men. But it did give me a
sense that I understood my brother better and my relationship
with him a little better. So basically it is about
Peter and Ivan Kubeck. They are brothers who live in Dublin,
(32:16):
their fathers just died. They're both negotiating romantic relationships with women.
It is in fact about awkward Irish people. I need
to make that clear up front. But I loved getting
an insight or feeling like I got an insight into
how men think about women and how men think about
their siblings. And that's why I'm recommending it.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Maybe I should pick it back up. I have two recommendations.
My first recommendation is a Tony box.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Have you heard of those?
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Yes, I have one, and I need to dig it up.
Remind me why it's good.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Okay, So the tony box is like a soft box thing,
and then you get Tony's what they're called, and we've
got like a gruffalo or a pepper pig, and you
put it on top and it either sing songs or
tells stories or whatever. And the idea is the way
that a lot of people talk to me about it
was you get them off screens. It's really interactive and
(33:10):
they love it, and so it's a great way for
them to feel really entertained by Pig without looking at
a screen. And as we know, that is parenting in
twenty twenty five. Just finding weaselways around screens.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Is Luna's favorite paper.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
No, her favorite is the Dog because it does round
and around. There's some song that she loves doing because
she does the dances to it, but we have to
do it every night. There's one that does lullabyes, so
we put that on before bed. And full disclosure, this
was a gift, so I didn't buy this myself, and
then I looked up how much it was, and that's
why I was a little bit self conscious about my
recommendation because they cost I think it's about one hundred
(33:45):
and eighty nine dollars for a box, and the tonys
are twenty nine dollars each, so I understand that that's
a lot. And I always get funny when like toys
are recommended that are really expensive and it feels like
they would make parenting easier, Like, I just don't love that.
I also think from what I've heard, they last for
years and years.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
We've had us for years, Yes.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
And it appeals to a five year old in a
different way than it appears to a two years true.
I'm going to check another one out there, which is
a recipe Amelia I your kids pickI eaters. I know
we're not meant to use that term, but are they.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Pis not really to be honest, But.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
People who hesitate, I'm like, they're fine. It's the ones
that are like my child.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Oh, let me tell you the food and it's like,
my child eats four foods.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Let's just say that. The list in my phone of
foods my Charlie's the God send for us have been
these things called oat bars and this would work for kids.
That sounds fibrous, yes, yes, fibrous and has nutrients. And
I'm just like, if she has one of those, at
least she had something. It's like a really good music.
But I would eat one. And so it's oats. You
put in bananas, The more ripe they are, the better,
(34:54):
and then you can literally throw in like carrots or
dates or prunes or one time I throw on some
beetruths and then you check at the oven and they last.
I make them every week and you can freeze them
and whatever, and Luna lives off them, and every time
she eats them, I feel like a good because I
know it has things in it that is would. There
is a link in the show notes. It's I do
not cook. There are about two things I can cook
(35:15):
and this is one of them. And it has saved
my life over the last years.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
And do you know what else is greed about it?
It matches your preferred color scheme.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
It does because it's smushed into the lounge. It doesn't
matter Beije lounge brilliant. It's fine. That is all we
have time for on Parenting Out Loud today, but we
will be back next Saturday morning. See you then, Bye bye.
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