May 11, 2025 • 39 mins
Renowned psychologist and bestselling author of 'Raising Boys' and 'The New Manhood' Steve Biddulph returns to offer practical guidance for raising emotionally healthy boys. Breaking down the three crucial stages of boyhood development, Steve offers strategies to build the essential qualities of good men. He explains why creating a village of diverse male role models is vital and how to counter toxic influences that target vulnerable boys online.
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With thanks to Steve Biddulph
You can find Steve Biddulph's books here
CREDITS:
Hosts: Annaliese Todd & Tegan Natoli
Producer:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Mia acknowledges
the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
is recorded on Hello and welcome to this glorious mess.
We're embracing the chaos together, ditching the judgment.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
I'm Analie Todd.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
I'm single and a single parent to a teen age
son and one tween age son. And I'm taken a Tollie,
a mother of three. And I hope all our beautiful
mom listeners had a lovely mother's Day yesterday. Happy Mother's Day,
Happy Mother's Day Today. It's not about the mother's it's
about the fellas. Yeah, because we're thrilled to welcome back
(00:53):
to the show. One of Australia's most respected psychologists, parenting
expert and best selling author Steve Bidoff, and with decades
of experience, he's dedicated his career to helping men break
free from outdated social molds and also guiding families through
the challenge of raising boys to become emotionally healthy men.
(01:13):
Steve's best selling book, Manhood, was first published in nineteen
ninety four and was groundbreaking in how it challenged traditional
notions of masculinity, suggesting that being a man was not
about toughness or stoicism. It has since been revised and updated,
with over a million copies sold worldwide. So today we're
going to be exploring his insights into the inner world
(01:36):
of men and how we can better understand the emotional
lives of our husbands, partners, and when raising men of
the future. But first, here's what's happening in my group chat. Okay,
so my group chat is lighting up with the shit
Mother's Day.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Gifts from the Mother's Day Stall school.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yes, correct, So I'm very lucky that I my kids
don't have a Mother's Day stall.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Why that's mean?
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Well, I don't want to pay for a piece of crap.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yes, sorry, but it's the thought that can it is sure.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
I do have a funny story. When my son was
in KINDI, he got me the weirdest Mother's Day gift.
See this is what I'm talking about.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Well, it's okay.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Giving you something to talk about, now, isn't it. It
was a cookbook by Olivia Newton John called Livewise, Easy
Recipes for a Healthy, happy Life. Oh did you cook
any of them? Clearly not never. Today we are exploring
the inner world of men and how we can better
(02:42):
understand the emotional lives of our husbands and partners and
how to better raise our boys with Steve Bidoff and
Steve's book Manhood and the Revised The New Manhood remains
a foundational text for anyone interested in men's well being, fatherhood,
and gender roles, nearly forty years after he first wrote it,
(03:03):
and in today's messed up world, we need to get
back to that big question, how can we help the
men in our lives to be happy and alive, safe
and life positive. Welcome back to this glorious mess, Steve
it Off.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
Great to see you both and to talk to your
listeners again. So hi from Tasmania.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
So your book Manhood or now The New Manhood.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
It opens with a really powerful statement and I would
love you to unpack it for us. Most men are
not fully alive. Yes, yes, what did you mean by that?
Speaker 4 (03:37):
In fact, the first edition said most men don't have
a life because things were bad back then. But still,
you know, we may as well get the bad news
out of the way first here in this podcast, and
that is that for the average guy coming into the
twenty first century, they were lonely, They had no friends,
(04:01):
half of their marriages ended. They did a job they hated,
and they didn't get along with their kids, and it
was just awful. And I was a family psychologist, and
it just was the brontosaurus in it was bigger than
the elephant. It was the brontosaurus in the room. The
guys were the problem. And it's you know, it's stunning.
You're both moms, and I think you've both got boys
(04:24):
in your families. Yea, yeah, And so you know, I
sometimes do this drawing where I do two little babies
on the whiteboard when I'm doing one of my shows,
and there's the two little babies look exactly the same,
but I say, the baby on the left three times
a chance of dying before he's twenty one, three times,
a chance of becoming addicted to drugs or alcohol, nineteen
(04:46):
times the chance of going to prison. And what's going
on with the baby on the left. It's a boy?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
So why, like, how do we get here? And how
are we getting it wrong?
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Still?
Speaker 4 (05:00):
Yeah, Well, what I focused on in manhood and seeing
we were starting to talk to men and starting to
get to the bottom of this because originally we decided
it was men. I just hope you know that's all
women are smart and men are hopeless. But I couldn't
get comfortable with that. The men I was seeing in
families were really trying the best, you know, they loved
their kids. And I began to read into some of
(05:21):
the background of male psychology, and some of these things
were incredible because I was only a young dad then
and we just had a miscarriage in our family, and
I was struggling as well. So I was looking for
myself as well as you know, for men in general.
But there's this idea that I'll put to you in
This idea always makes people cry when I used to
sitate it in my talks, that every boy that ever
(05:45):
lived has a dream father in his mind, and it's
the dad he wants his dad to be, If that
makes sense, you know. I want my dad to be
like this, you know, and do these kinds of things
with me and treat me in this way, you know,
and to be this kind of man in the world.
So a boy has a dream dad, and also every
(06:07):
dad that ever lived a dream son and a dream
daughter as well. And so there we see all I've
got there. We've got a boy growing up what has
an ideal dad that he's hoping his dad will become
and the dad has got a dream son that he
wants his son to be. And guess what, in this world,
(06:29):
they never ever match.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Yeah, And you.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
Know you wanted an Australian Test cricketer and you get
a boy who wants to dance, and you're a scientist
and you and your son's abovehead and doesn't want to
do science, you know, yeah, play sport. And so the
whole business of raising a son is learning to love
what you've got. Yeah, does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
It does?
Speaker 1 (06:57):
And I love how you go so deeply into that
father son dynamic. And I want to talk a little
bit about the healing approaches after, but I wanted to
share a message that my dad, Trevor Todd, has recorded
and I wanted to play it for you, Steve, if
that's okay.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
O and Alysa, just to let you know that I'll
never forget. After reading Steve Biddolf's Manhood, I phoned my
father and he normally tried to get off the phone
as quickly as possible and give the phone to Mum.
But I said to him, Dad, I've got something to
tell you. He says, what I said Dad, I love you.
He couldn't get off the phone quickly enough, but I
(07:36):
said it to him. Shortly after that he died. And
I'm so glad I took Steve Biddoff's advice and told
him because it was very hard to say thank you, Steve.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Of us crying.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
So that's your dad at Lisa, that's my dad, Trevor
Todd talking to your grandfather. Yeah, my dad's such a
beautiful emotional man. He was so connected with his mum.
But his dad was you know, fought in the war
and had no emotion, no expression, and so he had
that kind of dynamic.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
Yeah, and that was so much the case back then.
And Robert Bligh, who is a writer, and I really
like he said, most men go to their graves assuming
they've failed as a human being. And what happened with
your dad was he fixed that. You see, I'm going
to tell him how much he means to me. And
he got there just in time. And in no ways
(08:31):
Dad put the phone out fast because he's crying too.
So good good on you, Trevor, And yeah, that's just wonderful.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Well, I'm sure that's just one of the very many
people who your book has you know, really related to Steve,
what do you think makes a good man?
Speaker 3 (08:51):
All right?
Speaker 4 (08:52):
Now, I did this thing my work. I used to
get together with sometimes two hundred mums in a room,
mums of boys. And they range from people with nineteen
year old sons to young women who were pregnant, and
then you they were having a boy and they going
to ride at the start, And when you've got a
(09:13):
big audience, you have to always take them by surprise.
And so right at the start, I said, okay, I
want you to design the perfect man and call out
to me. Then the words that you would call out,
you know what, in one word, what would you want
a perfect man to be like? And because I'm sure
you've been with two hundred women in a room, they're
(09:34):
a bit hard to control. So the first answers were
kind of a bit ribaled, a bit sort of mischievous.
But we won't go there because what happened. What happens
next is they start saying things like kind and gentle
and sense of humor and caring, and then someone will
(09:56):
call out reliable, trustworthy, And this thing happens in the
room that you both would could picture, which is suddenly
the mood changes because the woman who called out, really,
I see her face across the room and it's kind
of got some kind of worry lines on her face.
(10:16):
And you're thinking, she's saying reliable because she's experienced the
opposite of that, and she knows damn well what she
wants in a man because she didn't get it the
first time around. Does that make sense? And so outcome
these words trustworthy, honest, enduring, hangs in through the hard stuff.
(10:36):
And I'm putting these on the board and there's about
fifty things on the board now, but they're in two columns,
and I say, what's up with these? And sure enough,
loving and kind is on one side and on the
other side is trustworthy, strong, and what they are those
two that it comes down to the really only two
things make a good man is heart and backbone. And
(11:01):
because heart is kind, but backbone shows up when he
says he'd show up, and very often in men of
the past you would get one but not the other.
So so some of the women listening could remember dads
or even husbands who were a lot of fun, you know,
really and pretty pretty generous and caring, really out there,
(11:22):
but just absolutely not reliable and some people had had
new men who were very you know, absolutely Dad said,
stuck around terrible marriage, still stayed with it, did what
they were supposed to. They were just so boring and
so cold and distant and locked shut down, And so
(11:43):
you have to have both. And when you're raising a boy,
you can kind of tell which one is maybe needing
a bit of a boost. Does that make sense when
you look at Yeah, Okay, he's got he's got backbone. Rude,
he doesn't. It needs a bit more hard, you know,
or the other Often with today's boys the other way around.
A lot of have a lot of fun, but can
(12:05):
they do the dishes?
Speaker 3 (12:06):
You know?
Speaker 4 (12:07):
Would they protect a girl if she was in danger?
Those kinds of things.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Yeah, you've listed so many qualities that I list on
my dating for what I'm looking for in a man.
One thing that you missed though, and one thing that
I just how do we make this possible? I wonder
if it's the same as what I'm thinking good communicator? Oh,
mine was emotionally intelligent, which is kind of similar, I suppose.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
Yes, absolutely, And to be emotionally intelligent, you've got to
have an inside and that brings us to the next
part of it. How do you get this to happen?
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Yes, well, that was my next question.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
I'm like, okay, this is great. Now how do I
get my son to have a little bit more backboat
and how do I get my husband to have a
little bit more hot?
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Well, it's one of the things that I kind of
is my contribution over the years, is there's three stages
of boyhood and you kind of have to build these
foundations that come along. And from nower to six, the
little boy years, boys are in there mom's domain. You know.
Dads can definitely around and they you know, they but
(13:16):
they kind of light it like light entertainment compared with mums.
And so little boys are learning to have heart and
to love life and to love the world, and they
get that from their mums. Usually not always, but usually,
but at the age of six, there's a thing that
happens in boys. It's like they suddenly notice that they're male.
(13:37):
See that happening in any culture. It seems to be
the same. They're holding onto mum's hand, they still really
want mum, but they're looking a dad, or they're looking
at their uncle or their granddad or whoever it is,
and they think something happening inside and thinking I'm turning
into a man. So I've got to study for the part.
And if dad is around, then they sort of lock
(14:00):
on to dad. And what I say to encourage dads
is at six, you are like God to your son.
He thinks you are amazing. And so if you want
him to have your values and have the qualities that
you want him to have, be around and hang out.
(14:21):
And this is where we went so badly wrong in
the modern world because we send everyone off to work.
You know, boys had grown up with you know, in
an agricultural society, a hunter gatherers society. Boys were around
men all day, every day, so different. You know, there
was soaking in how to be a man.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Even if you think about schools, you know there's like
two percent of male teachers compared to.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
Fee no guys around. And so from six to fourteen
is when a boy is learning sort of to be male.
And then at fourteen another thing happens, which is to
have this testosterone burst. It goes up by about eight
hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
I mean, my son is six, so I'm I'm like, okay, great,
now is.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
My husband's time to shine?
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Go on, please, my son at this point would crawl
back from where he came from at any given moment.
He's so obsessed with me. So I'm like, I'm actually
looking forward to my husband's time to shine with my son.
Speaker 4 (15:25):
Yes, yes, but at fourteen, what happens is they don't
even want to talk to their dad either. Yeah, we say,
a fourteen year old boy will argue with a road sign.
They have this very important and natural thing to explode
out into the world. And fourteen was used to be
when you became a man. Incredibly to think about it
(15:46):
now because of that thing that no dad can be
all that his spoy needs. What you have to do
is you want to have a really broad palette of
masculinity around so that he can start to think, Okay,
this guy is a bit more like what I need,
and so simple things like if dads and sons go
away with other dads and their sons on a camping trip,
(16:10):
what you'll find is your boy ends up talking to
one of the other dads for hours about model airplanes
or fishing or something, and it's starting to cross fertilized.
Does that make sense, that's the village then yeah, yeah,
And you're putting your son to build a broad masculinity,
he's got to you know, be friends with the gay
(16:32):
man over the back fence and the artistic guitar teacher
that he goes to learn guitar, or the martial arts
teacher or whoever, and his uncle that's interested in science,
and you know, because who know, your son might be
one of those kids who is going to end up
solving multiple sterosis or something like that. And that's the
kind of you know, focused, kind of very fine detailed
(16:55):
sort of man he's going to become. And his dad
just wants to play football with him, and so he
needs the spread. And so you know, no way can
mom or dad be everything a boy needs. And so
from forteen to twenty five, it's the final stepping stone.
And coming back to your question, analyse that if he
(17:16):
hangs around with men, then the men speak from their
inner world and they say, you know, my wife's really
sick at the moment. I'm sorry, I'm late mate to
take my wife to an appointment. She's pretty croak, and
I'm really worried about her, how she's going to be.
If I'm a bit you know, absent minded today, I
hope you'll understand and that twelve thirteen year old boy
(17:38):
thinks far out. You know, he's big, and he's tough,
and he's worried about his wife, and so he hears
the inner world of males.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Yeah, modeling vulnerability. Yeah, it's really nice.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
Yeah, vulnerability is such an important thing. That's kind of
the core of emotional intelligence, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Yeah, and Steve, you have spent decades observing how masculinity
has evolved. What positive changes have you witnessed in how
men express themselves emotionally and what harmful serotype still persist.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
Yeah, what's happened in the past with a teenage boy
is he hasn't had those stages and so so he's
getting to thirteen or fourteen, and he can feel manhood
coming at him like a train, you know, like here
it comes. You know, I've got to have to be
a man. You know, people are starting to pick on
me at school or there's you know, all these things
(18:33):
are happening, pressures and what have you. But he doesn't
have the software. He hasn't had a chance to download
how to be a man. This is the typical boy
of today, of the past. So what he does is
he thinks I got it. I got to act fast.
And he looks around for a good mask to slap
on to carry him through. Now there are four masks
(18:56):
available to the Australian teenage boy. The tough guy is
the obvious one. You know, a bit of a rough neighborhood,
a rough school. You're put on a tough guy mask,
look like you're you mean business. That's quite a good protection,
you know, you look at me sideways, I'll belcher. Another
one is the cool dude, so a bit more, you know,
(19:17):
sunglasses on the head, you know, Siggi's tucked in the
in the T shirt sleeve, a bit of sort of
fashion and cars and that kind of stuff. I'm cool,
everything's fine, I'm amazing, you know, working out all that
sort of stuff. Then there's the third one, which is
the hard working go getter. And so he's you know,
(19:40):
he's got his suit. You know, he's wearing suits since
he's thirteen, you know, and he's on.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
The debating team.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
He's yeah, he's.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
Writing after cooperations with his CV and everything, and pretty
good logical plan. You know, I'll get rich and then
women will like me and and they'll do it that way.
And just to finish off that there's the fun guy.
And this is a very common special mask in Australia
and it's often you can tell cous their people give
(20:11):
their name and an I E. On the air you become.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
American.
Speaker 4 (20:18):
Yes, yeah, so you're a warning or a briggsy or
and the fun guy just makes people laugh and this
will be a shocking to listeners. That's that's the one
that is most high in the suicide risk because you know,
it's nobody has the slightest idea of what's really going
(20:40):
on because he was always such a fun guy.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
That's like, you know, comedians are often have the darkest demons.
Humors is a great mask. Yeah yeah, I think I'm any.
I'm Tigany. So we've talked about we need the village,
we need the role models.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
What else can we do?
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Like where else are we getting it wrong in teenage
boys today?
Speaker 2 (21:08):
And how can we get it right?
Speaker 4 (21:09):
The best step I think is to start talking about
this stuff and to unpack it and say, Okay, everyone
wears masks when they're scared or when they don't know
what to do. But what I'll really work for you,
you know, is to be you and so you know
if you want to get on well with with girls.
For example, no one wants to go out with a mask.
(21:31):
No one wants to be married to a mask. You know,
saying being able to say you're nervous, being able to
say you know you're feeling sad about something is a
real open heartenedness people. You know, that's how we connect
is with our hearts. Renee Brown said, nothing good ever
happens without vulnerability.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
I love Brown, She's so great.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
Is it amazing? And then to spread out and say, look,
there's all these ways you know to be a happy man.
Investing parenthood, you know, spend a lot of time with
your kids and get over the nervousness around your children
and hang out with them a lot and find your
way with that. And do you have are you comfortable
(22:16):
in your own skin? Some of the rights of passage
programs that we're doing with boys is the hardest thing
you do is go for twenty four hours in a
tent by yourself in the bush and just write a
journal and be be on your own and so that
you know, for me, it's kayaking. I just you know,
I can be comfortable. You know, I'm at an age
(22:37):
when sometime I may end up on you know, as
a widower or hopefully die first. But if I think
that it's possibly be on my own, I have to
know how to be on my own because a lot
of those those misogynists that we are so worried about.
A misogynist is a mum, is a mummy's boy, okay,
(22:58):
and he has never ever left the apron strings of
his mum, and so so he tries to make every
woman into his mother.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Yeah, that's a good one. That is food for thought.
It is, yeah, okay.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
And at least does that make sense. I can see you.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
When I think about a mummy's boy, I think, I mean,
obviously I only have sons, so I'm like, oh, that's
a good thing. Do you know that You think you
would say your boys and mummies boys and be like, oh,
but they're not misogynous.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Well, yeah, I'm trying to see.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
I'm trying to see how I guess I'm probably feeling defensive.
It's like, how can you be close with your mum
and view women badly? When I think about red flags?
When I'm looking at men, if they don't respect their
mum to me, I feel that shapes their view of women,
So in my experience, it's the opposite.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
Yes, well, I think that both things are true, and
that the foundation is respecting your mum and loving her,
feeling close to her. But there's some kind of a
separation needs to happen where he doesn't need his mum.
And so, for instance, made a really big thing in
raising boys of learning to cook and that every boy.
(24:13):
And I noticed that one of the podcasts a couple
of days ago that you.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Did with Kate Langbrook.
Speaker 4 (24:18):
Yes, yes, and I thought that was wonderful.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yeah, she said teaching them to cook is as important
as teaching them to read.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
Yeah, yeah, it's stunning. And so so he can he
can take care of himself, and so he doesn't come
from a place of of need, but from a place
of I just like women.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
Yeah, and I.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
See them as friends as well. And so and I
think where the andrew Takes of the world come in
is this kind of thing where they just want to
control control women, yeah, instead of just relate to them
on an equal basis.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Yeah, I like, I understand that it's rather than a need,
you know, like I don't you know, I'm not I'm
not married to you all with you because you need
to you need to make me dinner, or you need
to clean the house or do my washing or get
the kids ready. You know that would love me lovely,
But I think you're mistaken me for you know the housekeeper.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
No, no, that makes total sense.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Coming up after this short break more golden nuggets of
wisdom from Steve Bidolf on how do we crack open
the emotional tough nuts in our lives?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
That's next.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
See one thing I want to touch on when we
look at men and friendships, you know, females, we can
get in a room and we will download everything that
has happened in the last thirty days since we've seen
someone will reveal our biggest fears, our saddest moments, our
most shameful thoughts, and we all share and then workshop it.
(25:52):
And I obviously not everyone's the same, but typically, especially
austraining men will get together, have a beer and talk
about sport and work.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
Why yeah, well that was I think that was back
in the Mask era. Perhaps the most concrete thing that
came out of the Manhood Book was that it recommended
having a men's group and getting together with other guys
and not talking about sport or which career. And one
of the things that really shocked me was that people
(26:21):
had always said, and I think I bought this, that
men can't talk about their feelings. So we started to
tell some of those stories about the father wound and
this thing of the separation between men and dads, and
we found that thirty percent of the men never spoke
to their fathers, and another thirty spoke, but it was
(26:43):
just kind of, you know, going through the motions, and
another thirty did it out of duty, but it was
really boring. Only one man in ten was close to
his dad. That was horrendous Australian picture. And we talk
about this and men in those groups and also even
in the big audiences analysts, would you know, a thousand
(27:06):
people out in front of me, and I was talking
about that, and they'd be guys crying in the room
because I set it up with the lights before I
go in so I can see every face in the room.
Because I'm autistic, I freak out if I can't see
every face. And so I see every face. I know
everyone's with me, and I'm watching everyone and there's men
all over the room starting to cry, and and I'm thinking,
(27:28):
WHOA and occasionally. I talked to the ushers after the
show and they said there were two or three men left,
and I'd say, well, I probably had phone calls, and
they said no, no, they were really upset. And I thought, okay,
I've got to lighten up, because it's good to have
an impact, but you don't want them to leave.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
You're really unlooking there.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Trauma.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
Yeah, And so I learned to be funnier and lighter
as well as I went to deep water. But basically,
men have lots of feelings, and when they start to
come out, it's wonderful because you can when you can
feel your own wounds and you'll never inflict them on
somebody else. And so, you know, so guy's you know,
my dad killed himself and and I just felt like
(28:15):
it was, you know, he didn't care about me. I
wasn't enough to keep him alive. And when that comes
out in a group of a group of men, and
all the men's faces are so with you. You know,
no one's chirping up with a joke or advice, and
it's just there and it's honored. And I think we
don't talk as much as women do, but this and
(28:38):
even the man of today in the future, I still
think won't talk as much, but the sense of connection
will be there. They won't push down their feelings.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Steve, my husband's eleven years older than me, and he's
a bit old school. He's Italian as well, so it's
like there's not a lot of he hasn't grown up
with a whole lot of vulnerability, although he's surrounded by
you know, two sisters and his mum. But I feel
like this is like where almost the guinea pigs in
terms of parenting, this new approach, you know, and this
(29:12):
new take on vulnerability, especially in young men, and and
creating a safe space for that and encouraging that amongst
other things. You know, what are some of the typical
barriers that men face and expressing vulnerability and emotional needs
Because you know, I think if it's the dads, as
you say, the dads are the ones sort of paving
(29:34):
the way for their sons. They're still learning themselves.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
How do we crack the moment that's not to the point,
you know.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
How do I make my husband a big gooey teddy bear.
Speaker 4 (29:47):
And yeah, well, I mean you could give them a
coffee of the book. It's the book that's most thrown
against the wall.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
But you it's the both like, hey, baby, down this,
I just found it out on the side of the road.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Audio together.
Speaker 4 (30:07):
But there's a few things one to sink or swim,
which is you go away for a week and leave
them with the kids so they kind of make their way.
And because we often kind of step in and gate
keep or become the go between. Yeah, and a little
bit of that helps. I still to this day, Sharon
(30:27):
will still say, you really stuff that up. You know,
you need to apologize to your daughter.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
You stuff things up.
Speaker 4 (30:36):
Yeah, And so i'm you know, if it's done in
a diplomatic enough way, but if your husband's a bit defensive,
you know, to say, look, I think he might have
thought you meant this, or he doesn't know you know
that you what your world is like, you know, why
don't you tell him more of his story? And and
a really good thing from from six onwards is dads
(30:59):
and sons go away for the same with daughters go
off on trips together. Because on the second day, especially
if it's like you know, camping or staying in cheap
cabins in caravan parks things like that, you have to
cook and you go to clean, you got to do
a lot of things. You're sleep and in the same
place they start to talk. And also if you're open
(31:24):
to it and you can kind of be prepared for this,
they'll have like a big list of complaints of things
that they and so you can even ask and say, look,
what can I do to be a better dad for you?
I really want to be the dad you need. What
would you like different from what I do? And now
(31:47):
you can do this as a family around the table
sometime when your include mum as well, different ways in
But if dad and son, even like a seven year
old son, go away camping together, on the second day,
they'll probably have a blow up. And the blow up
will be not something going wrong, there's something going right
(32:07):
where the sun gets crabby and tired and hasn't enough.
Dad's a terrible cook, and it all comes out and
the dad sort of if he knows what he's doing,
sits down, says, you know, tell what's going on. You know,
we've got to get along. You know, it's with five
hours from home, we don't have to see days to go.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
We've got to make this work, buddy.
Speaker 4 (32:29):
Yeah, And sometimes there's a kind of a breakthrough happens
and they come back and their mates. So it's a
bit fraud and yeah, but it's important.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
I feel like that, you know, even on a way,
like I've got my son and two daughters as well,
very close in age, and my husband and even myself
very rarely get a chance to have one on one
time with any of our children because you neither got
two or one or swopsias or you know. It's just
the logistical part of a parenthood, I suppose. But even
(33:01):
in the case where my husband has spent a Sunday
with my son or they've gone fishing or something, you know,
and had to start with my son doesn't want to go,
and then he comes back and he's like, it's the
there was the best day ever, you know, because what
it will be in his mind, it's so much more
than that in reality, you know, like, yeah, he's thinking
about a fishing rod and standing there and maybe he
(33:21):
doesn't like the weather. But the connection that comes from
just quality time and especially on a rare one on
one experience with your parent, I just think is just
beyond you.
Speaker 4 (33:31):
Know, I have great hopes for your Oh.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Sorry, I'm turning this into my own personal my own
personal manhood, says such a session, Steve, I love that
and going and doing camping and activities and fishing, and
you're going to have those conversations for people who are listening,
and they think, Okay, well my partner, my husband, he'll
do the activities with my kids and he's great and
(33:58):
he turns up. But he cannot open up. He cannot
be emotional, he can't be vulnerable in the marriage with children.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
It's just not who he is. A tough nut to
crack like, he's not a how do we did you say?
He's not awful? He's not awful.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
It's like if this is just if you look at
that whole.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
You know, men are from Mars, women are from venus.
We are built differently.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
If someone just really struggles to open up and be vulnerable,
whether it's in parenting or in a relationship, what sort
of strategies can we as I guess you know, if
you think women are listening, what can we do?
Speaker 4 (34:32):
Yeah? Okay, Now there's two sides to it. I mean,
the one is that he's never going to have a
good life if he doesn't learn that at some stage.
You know, it's say it's separated from from a dad.
His next marriage won't work either if he doesn't learn that,
and he'll struggle. But and so you would always want
(34:53):
him to get help. From the son's point of view,
it's like it's a practical problem now, and so it's
the thing. And for every single mum listening, and so
much of my work over forty years has been with
mums raising boys on their own. And we always really
clear women can raise boys on their own very well.
(35:13):
They've done that for thousands of years. But when I
talked to mums on their own, and I meet people
who are my clients forty years ago in the supermarket,
you know, in Lnsston, came back to Tazzy and I
meet people, what did you do? How did it go?
Speaker 3 (35:29):
It said?
Speaker 4 (35:30):
I knew I had to get good men into his life.
So I got his uncle, who's a very rouded cut
of the guy to be the one who takes him fishing,
or his grand hang out with his granddad, or he
just really liked his martial arts teacher, who was sort
of guy I'd like to marry his martial arts teacher.
(35:50):
And so, you know, how can we organize for more
of that in his life? And so that he sees
what good men look like, and so it doesn't have
to be his actual dad.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
That's a really good point.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
I think the village comes back to the village. Yeah,
whether they've got a or not, everyone everyone needs a
really Yeah, and yeah, I think not every not every
individual can be everything to everyone.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
So that's a good nobody can.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Yeah, humans aren't islands, you know what I mean? Like
when where we are the most social creatures on the planet. Yes,
this is I love, this is my jam Steve. What
is the future of men?
Speaker 4 (36:35):
Oh okay, it hangs in the balance. Oh god, yes,
I mean we've got the monsters, you know, the trumps
and the subjects monsters.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
It takes.
Speaker 4 (36:45):
Yeah, And it's like when I go kayaking, are's this
thing happens and at the mouth of a river when
the tide changes, some of the tides coming in and
someone's going out at the same time at the picture
and we just have to work on on this.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
You know.
Speaker 4 (37:01):
It's the you know, I gave this forty years. You know.
Raising Boys is the is the top selling parenting book
in the world. There are millions of people getting boys
to make pasta millions of dads giving it a go,
flying kites, going to the park, pushing prams. Us guys
have got to do it, and we've got to name
up the other stuff as absolute shit. You know, those
(37:24):
guys are hopeless man, their baby man, they're fake man.
And to tell those teenagers it won't work. You know,
if you do misogyny and you treat women as something inferior,
women will hate you. They will see you for what
you are and they'll hate you. And you have a choice,
(37:45):
you know, either learn to be vulnerable and open with
the girls in your life and stick up for them,
or you will be a loser forever. And I think
sometimes the most boys know what we're talking about, but
some kind of hang in the balance a little bit,
you know what I mean, They kind of trying it on.
And we need in this, you know, to step up
and say, you know, it doesn't work. Doesn't work, not.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
An option anymore.
Speaker 4 (38:10):
Yeah, And even you know, as a mom, say to
your son if you have you know, I'm your mum
and I love you. You ever heard a woman I belong
to the tribe of women. I will just pour coals
on your head for you. And you know this is
this is a non negotiable, never ever exploit a girl,
never ever gaslight, take advantage of ganging up on.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
And those conversations evolve as they get older, because in
the playground it's about pushing someone over, but obviously it
gets more and more complex, so it's about having to
keep having those conversations at every stage. Well, Steve, we
love having you. Every time we see your gorgeous face
and hear your beautiful, soothing voice, we just, you know,
(38:58):
feel like we're talking to our dads.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Yes, you're so sweet. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
And also we'll share a link in the show notes
of how you can grab a copy of The New
Manhood and Steve's other best selling books, Raising Boys, Raising
Girls and Wild Creature Mind.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Thank you, Steve Off.
Speaker 4 (39:14):
Great to talk to you to Daughter Figures.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Thank you so much for listening to this glorious mess.
We hope you enjoyed the episode. This episode was produced
by Tina Matlov with audio production by Jacob Brown. See
you next time.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
Bye,
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Mia acknowledges
the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
is recorded on Hello and welcome to this glorious mess.
We're embracing the chaos together, ditching the judgment.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
I'm Analie Todd.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
I'm single and a single parent to a teen age
son and one tween age son. And I'm taken a Tollie,
a mother of three. And I hope all our beautiful
mom listeners had a lovely mother's Day yesterday. Happy Mother's Day,
Happy Mother's Day Today. It's not about the mother's it's
about the fellas. Yeah, because we're thrilled to welcome back
(00:53):
to the show. One of Australia's most respected psychologists, parenting
expert and best selling author Steve Bidoff, and with decades
of experience, he's dedicated his career to helping men break
free from outdated social molds and also guiding families through
the challenge of raising boys to become emotionally healthy men.
(01:13):
Steve's best selling book, Manhood, was first published in nineteen
ninety four and was groundbreaking in how it challenged traditional
notions of masculinity, suggesting that being a man was not
about toughness or stoicism. It has since been revised and updated,
with over a million copies sold worldwide. So today we're
going to be exploring his insights into the inner world
(01:36):
of men and how we can better understand the emotional
lives of our husbands, partners, and when raising men of
the future. But first, here's what's happening in my group chat. Okay,
so my group chat is lighting up with the shit
Mother's Day.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Gifts from the Mother's Day Stall school.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yes, correct, So I'm very lucky that I my kids
don't have a Mother's Day stall.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Why that's mean?
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Well, I don't want to pay for a piece of crap.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yes, sorry, but it's the thought that can it is sure.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
I do have a funny story. When my son was
in KINDI, he got me the weirdest Mother's Day gift.
See this is what I'm talking about.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Well, it's okay.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Giving you something to talk about, now, isn't it. It
was a cookbook by Olivia Newton John called Livewise, Easy
Recipes for a Healthy, happy Life. Oh did you cook
any of them? Clearly not never. Today we are exploring
the inner world of men and how we can better
(02:42):
understand the emotional lives of our husbands and partners and
how to better raise our boys with Steve Bidoff and
Steve's book Manhood and the Revised The New Manhood remains
a foundational text for anyone interested in men's well being, fatherhood,
and gender roles, nearly forty years after he first wrote it,
(03:03):
and in today's messed up world, we need to get
back to that big question, how can we help the
men in our lives to be happy and alive, safe
and life positive. Welcome back to this glorious mess, Steve
it Off.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
Great to see you both and to talk to your
listeners again. So hi from Tasmania.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
So your book Manhood or now The New Manhood.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
It opens with a really powerful statement and I would
love you to unpack it for us. Most men are
not fully alive. Yes, yes, what did you mean by that?
Speaker 4 (03:37):
In fact, the first edition said most men don't have
a life because things were bad back then. But still,
you know, we may as well get the bad news
out of the way first here in this podcast, and
that is that for the average guy coming into the
twenty first century, they were lonely, They had no friends,
(04:01):
half of their marriages ended. They did a job they hated,
and they didn't get along with their kids, and it
was just awful. And I was a family psychologist, and
it just was the brontosaurus in it was bigger than
the elephant. It was the brontosaurus in the room. The
guys were the problem. And it's you know, it's stunning.
You're both moms, and I think you've both got boys
(04:24):
in your families. Yea, yeah, And so you know, I
sometimes do this drawing where I do two little babies
on the whiteboard when I'm doing one of my shows,
and there's the two little babies look exactly the same,
but I say, the baby on the left three times
a chance of dying before he's twenty one, three times,
a chance of becoming addicted to drugs or alcohol, nineteen
(04:46):
times the chance of going to prison. And what's going
on with the baby on the left. It's a boy?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
So why, like, how do we get here? And how
are we getting it wrong?
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Still?
Speaker 4 (05:00):
Yeah, Well, what I focused on in manhood and seeing
we were starting to talk to men and starting to
get to the bottom of this because originally we decided
it was men. I just hope you know that's all
women are smart and men are hopeless. But I couldn't
get comfortable with that. The men I was seeing in
families were really trying the best, you know, they loved
their kids. And I began to read into some of
(05:21):
the background of male psychology, and some of these things
were incredible because I was only a young dad then
and we just had a miscarriage in our family, and
I was struggling as well. So I was looking for
myself as well as you know, for men in general.
But there's this idea that I'll put to you in
This idea always makes people cry when I used to
sitate it in my talks, that every boy that ever
(05:45):
lived has a dream father in his mind, and it's
the dad he wants his dad to be, If that
makes sense, you know. I want my dad to be
like this, you know, and do these kinds of things
with me and treat me in this way, you know,
and to be this kind of man in the world.
So a boy has a dream dad, and also every
(06:07):
dad that ever lived a dream son and a dream
daughter as well. And so there we see all I've
got there. We've got a boy growing up what has
an ideal dad that he's hoping his dad will become
and the dad has got a dream son that he
wants his son to be. And guess what, in this world,
(06:29):
they never ever match.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Yeah, And you.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
Know you wanted an Australian Test cricketer and you get
a boy who wants to dance, and you're a scientist
and you and your son's abovehead and doesn't want to
do science, you know, yeah, play sport. And so the
whole business of raising a son is learning to love
what you've got. Yeah, does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
It does?
Speaker 1 (06:57):
And I love how you go so deeply into that
father son dynamic. And I want to talk a little
bit about the healing approaches after, but I wanted to
share a message that my dad, Trevor Todd, has recorded
and I wanted to play it for you, Steve, if
that's okay.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
O and Alysa, just to let you know that I'll
never forget. After reading Steve Biddolf's Manhood, I phoned my
father and he normally tried to get off the phone
as quickly as possible and give the phone to Mum.
But I said to him, Dad, I've got something to
tell you. He says, what I said Dad, I love you.
He couldn't get off the phone quickly enough, but I
(07:36):
said it to him. Shortly after that he died. And
I'm so glad I took Steve Biddoff's advice and told
him because it was very hard to say thank you, Steve.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Of us crying.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
So that's your dad at Lisa, that's my dad, Trevor
Todd talking to your grandfather. Yeah, my dad's such a
beautiful emotional man. He was so connected with his mum.
But his dad was you know, fought in the war
and had no emotion, no expression, and so he had
that kind of dynamic.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
Yeah, and that was so much the case back then.
And Robert Bligh, who is a writer, and I really
like he said, most men go to their graves assuming
they've failed as a human being. And what happened with
your dad was he fixed that. You see, I'm going
to tell him how much he means to me. And
he got there just in time. And in no ways
(08:31):
Dad put the phone out fast because he's crying too.
So good good on you, Trevor, And yeah, that's just wonderful.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Well, I'm sure that's just one of the very many
people who your book has you know, really related to Steve,
what do you think makes a good man?
Speaker 3 (08:51):
All right?
Speaker 4 (08:52):
Now, I did this thing my work. I used to
get together with sometimes two hundred mums in a room,
mums of boys. And they range from people with nineteen
year old sons to young women who were pregnant, and
then you they were having a boy and they going
to ride at the start, And when you've got a
(09:13):
big audience, you have to always take them by surprise.
And so right at the start, I said, okay, I
want you to design the perfect man and call out
to me. Then the words that you would call out,
you know what, in one word, what would you want
a perfect man to be like? And because I'm sure
you've been with two hundred women in a room, they're
(09:34):
a bit hard to control. So the first answers were
kind of a bit ribaled, a bit sort of mischievous.
But we won't go there because what happened. What happens
next is they start saying things like kind and gentle
and sense of humor and caring, and then someone will
(09:56):
call out reliable, trustworthy, And this thing happens in the
room that you both would could picture, which is suddenly
the mood changes because the woman who called out, really,
I see her face across the room and it's kind
of got some kind of worry lines on her face.
(10:16):
And you're thinking, she's saying reliable because she's experienced the
opposite of that, and she knows damn well what she
wants in a man because she didn't get it the
first time around. Does that make sense? And so outcome
these words trustworthy, honest, enduring, hangs in through the hard stuff.
(10:36):
And I'm putting these on the board and there's about
fifty things on the board now, but they're in two columns,
and I say, what's up with these? And sure enough,
loving and kind is on one side and on the
other side is trustworthy, strong, and what they are those
two that it comes down to the really only two
things make a good man is heart and backbone. And
(11:01):
because heart is kind, but backbone shows up when he
says he'd show up, and very often in men of
the past you would get one but not the other.
So so some of the women listening could remember dads
or even husbands who were a lot of fun, you know,
really and pretty pretty generous and caring, really out there,
(11:22):
but just absolutely not reliable and some people had had
new men who were very you know, absolutely Dad said,
stuck around terrible marriage, still stayed with it, did what
they were supposed to. They were just so boring and
so cold and distant and locked shut down, And so
(11:43):
you have to have both. And when you're raising a boy,
you can kind of tell which one is maybe needing
a bit of a boost. Does that make sense when
you look at Yeah, Okay, he's got he's got backbone. Rude,
he doesn't. It needs a bit more hard, you know,
or the other Often with today's boys the other way around.
A lot of have a lot of fun, but can
(12:05):
they do the dishes?
Speaker 3 (12:06):
You know?
Speaker 4 (12:07):
Would they protect a girl if she was in danger?
Those kinds of things.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Yeah, you've listed so many qualities that I list on
my dating for what I'm looking for in a man.
One thing that you missed though, and one thing that
I just how do we make this possible? I wonder
if it's the same as what I'm thinking good communicator? Oh,
mine was emotionally intelligent, which is kind of similar, I suppose.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
Yes, absolutely, And to be emotionally intelligent, you've got to
have an inside and that brings us to the next
part of it. How do you get this to happen?
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Yes, well, that was my next question.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
I'm like, okay, this is great. Now how do I
get my son to have a little bit more backboat
and how do I get my husband to have a
little bit more hot?
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Well, it's one of the things that I kind of
is my contribution over the years, is there's three stages
of boyhood and you kind of have to build these
foundations that come along. And from nower to six, the
little boy years, boys are in there mom's domain. You know.
Dads can definitely around and they you know, they but
(13:16):
they kind of light it like light entertainment compared with mums.
And so little boys are learning to have heart and
to love life and to love the world, and they
get that from their mums. Usually not always, but usually,
but at the age of six, there's a thing that
happens in boys. It's like they suddenly notice that they're male.
(13:37):
See that happening in any culture. It seems to be
the same. They're holding onto mum's hand, they still really
want mum, but they're looking a dad, or they're looking
at their uncle or their granddad or whoever it is,
and they think something happening inside and thinking I'm turning
into a man. So I've got to study for the part.
And if dad is around, then they sort of lock
(14:00):
on to dad. And what I say to encourage dads
is at six, you are like God to your son.
He thinks you are amazing. And so if you want
him to have your values and have the qualities that
you want him to have, be around and hang out.
(14:21):
And this is where we went so badly wrong in
the modern world because we send everyone off to work.
You know, boys had grown up with you know, in
an agricultural society, a hunter gatherers society. Boys were around
men all day, every day, so different. You know, there
was soaking in how to be a man.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Even if you think about schools, you know there's like
two percent of male teachers compared to.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
Fee no guys around. And so from six to fourteen
is when a boy is learning sort of to be male.
And then at fourteen another thing happens, which is to
have this testosterone burst. It goes up by about eight
hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
I mean, my son is six, so I'm I'm like, okay, great,
now is.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
My husband's time to shine?
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Go on, please, my son at this point would crawl
back from where he came from at any given moment.
He's so obsessed with me. So I'm like, I'm actually
looking forward to my husband's time to shine with my son.
Speaker 4 (15:25):
Yes, yes, but at fourteen, what happens is they don't
even want to talk to their dad either. Yeah, we say,
a fourteen year old boy will argue with a road sign.
They have this very important and natural thing to explode
out into the world. And fourteen was used to be
when you became a man. Incredibly to think about it
(15:46):
now because of that thing that no dad can be
all that his spoy needs. What you have to do
is you want to have a really broad palette of
masculinity around so that he can start to think, Okay,
this guy is a bit more like what I need,
and so simple things like if dads and sons go
away with other dads and their sons on a camping trip,
(16:10):
what you'll find is your boy ends up talking to
one of the other dads for hours about model airplanes
or fishing or something, and it's starting to cross fertilized.
Does that make sense, that's the village then yeah, yeah,
And you're putting your son to build a broad masculinity,
he's got to you know, be friends with the gay
(16:32):
man over the back fence and the artistic guitar teacher
that he goes to learn guitar, or the martial arts
teacher or whoever, and his uncle that's interested in science,
and you know, because who know, your son might be
one of those kids who is going to end up
solving multiple sterosis or something like that. And that's the
kind of you know, focused, kind of very fine detailed
(16:55):
sort of man he's going to become. And his dad
just wants to play football with him, and so he
needs the spread. And so you know, no way can
mom or dad be everything a boy needs. And so
from forteen to twenty five, it's the final stepping stone.
And coming back to your question, analyse that if he
(17:16):
hangs around with men, then the men speak from their
inner world and they say, you know, my wife's really
sick at the moment. I'm sorry, I'm late mate to
take my wife to an appointment. She's pretty croak, and
I'm really worried about her, how she's going to be.
If I'm a bit you know, absent minded today, I
hope you'll understand and that twelve thirteen year old boy
(17:38):
thinks far out. You know, he's big, and he's tough,
and he's worried about his wife, and so he hears
the inner world of males.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Yeah, modeling vulnerability. Yeah, it's really nice.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
Yeah, vulnerability is such an important thing. That's kind of
the core of emotional intelligence, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Yeah, and Steve, you have spent decades observing how masculinity
has evolved. What positive changes have you witnessed in how
men express themselves emotionally and what harmful serotype still persist.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
Yeah, what's happened in the past with a teenage boy
is he hasn't had those stages and so so he's
getting to thirteen or fourteen, and he can feel manhood
coming at him like a train, you know, like here
it comes. You know, I've got to have to be
a man. You know, people are starting to pick on
me at school or there's you know, all these things
(18:33):
are happening, pressures and what have you. But he doesn't
have the software. He hasn't had a chance to download
how to be a man. This is the typical boy
of today, of the past. So what he does is
he thinks I got it. I got to act fast.
And he looks around for a good mask to slap
on to carry him through. Now there are four masks
(18:56):
available to the Australian teenage boy. The tough guy is
the obvious one. You know, a bit of a rough neighborhood,
a rough school. You're put on a tough guy mask,
look like you're you mean business. That's quite a good protection,
you know, you look at me sideways, I'll belcher. Another
one is the cool dude, so a bit more, you know,
(19:17):
sunglasses on the head, you know, Siggi's tucked in the
in the T shirt sleeve, a bit of sort of
fashion and cars and that kind of stuff. I'm cool,
everything's fine, I'm amazing, you know, working out all that
sort of stuff. Then there's the third one, which is
the hard working go getter. And so he's you know,
(19:40):
he's got his suit. You know, he's wearing suits since
he's thirteen, you know, and he's on.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
The debating team.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
He's yeah, he's.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
Writing after cooperations with his CV and everything, and pretty
good logical plan. You know, I'll get rich and then
women will like me and and they'll do it that way.
And just to finish off that there's the fun guy.
And this is a very common special mask in Australia
and it's often you can tell cous their people give
(20:11):
their name and an I E. On the air you become.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
American.
Speaker 4 (20:18):
Yes, yeah, so you're a warning or a briggsy or
and the fun guy just makes people laugh and this
will be a shocking to listeners. That's that's the one
that is most high in the suicide risk because you know,
it's nobody has the slightest idea of what's really going
(20:40):
on because he was always such a fun guy.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
That's like, you know, comedians are often have the darkest demons.
Humors is a great mask. Yeah yeah, I think I'm any.
I'm Tigany. So we've talked about we need the village,
we need the role models.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
What else can we do?
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Like where else are we getting it wrong in teenage
boys today?
Speaker 2 (21:08):
And how can we get it right?
Speaker 4 (21:09):
The best step I think is to start talking about
this stuff and to unpack it and say, Okay, everyone
wears masks when they're scared or when they don't know
what to do. But what I'll really work for you,
you know, is to be you and so you know
if you want to get on well with with girls.
For example, no one wants to go out with a mask.
(21:31):
No one wants to be married to a mask. You know,
saying being able to say you're nervous, being able to
say you know you're feeling sad about something is a
real open heartenedness people. You know, that's how we connect
is with our hearts. Renee Brown said, nothing good ever
happens without vulnerability.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
I love Brown, She's so great.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
Is it amazing? And then to spread out and say, look,
there's all these ways you know to be a happy man.
Investing parenthood, you know, spend a lot of time with
your kids and get over the nervousness around your children
and hang out with them a lot and find your
way with that. And do you have are you comfortable
(22:16):
in your own skin? Some of the rights of passage
programs that we're doing with boys is the hardest thing
you do is go for twenty four hours in a
tent by yourself in the bush and just write a
journal and be be on your own and so that
you know, for me, it's kayaking. I just you know,
I can be comfortable. You know, I'm at an age
(22:37):
when sometime I may end up on you know, as
a widower or hopefully die first. But if I think
that it's possibly be on my own, I have to
know how to be on my own because a lot
of those those misogynists that we are so worried about.
A misogynist is a mum, is a mummy's boy, okay,
(22:58):
and he has never ever left the apron strings of
his mum, and so so he tries to make every
woman into his mother.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Yeah, that's a good one. That is food for thought.
It is, yeah, okay.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
And at least does that make sense. I can see you.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
When I think about a mummy's boy, I think, I mean,
obviously I only have sons, so I'm like, oh, that's
a good thing. Do you know that You think you
would say your boys and mummies boys and be like, oh,
but they're not misogynous.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Well, yeah, I'm trying to see.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
I'm trying to see how I guess I'm probably feeling defensive.
It's like, how can you be close with your mum
and view women badly? When I think about red flags?
When I'm looking at men, if they don't respect their
mum to me, I feel that shapes their view of women,
So in my experience, it's the opposite.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
Yes, well, I think that both things are true, and
that the foundation is respecting your mum and loving her,
feeling close to her. But there's some kind of a
separation needs to happen where he doesn't need his mum.
And so, for instance, made a really big thing in
raising boys of learning to cook and that every boy.
(24:13):
And I noticed that one of the podcasts a couple
of days ago that you.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Did with Kate Langbrook.
Speaker 4 (24:18):
Yes, yes, and I thought that was wonderful.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yeah, she said teaching them to cook is as important
as teaching them to read.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
Yeah, yeah, it's stunning. And so so he can he
can take care of himself, and so he doesn't come
from a place of of need, but from a place
of I just like women.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
Yeah, and I.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
See them as friends as well. And so and I
think where the andrew Takes of the world come in
is this kind of thing where they just want to
control control women, yeah, instead of just relate to them
on an equal basis.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Yeah, I like, I understand that it's rather than a need,
you know, like I don't you know, I'm not I'm
not married to you all with you because you need
to you need to make me dinner, or you need
to clean the house or do my washing or get
the kids ready. You know that would love me lovely,
But I think you're mistaken me for you know the housekeeper.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
No, no, that makes total sense.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Coming up after this short break more golden nuggets of
wisdom from Steve Bidolf on how do we crack open
the emotional tough nuts in our lives?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
That's next.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
See one thing I want to touch on when we
look at men and friendships, you know, females, we can
get in a room and we will download everything that
has happened in the last thirty days since we've seen
someone will reveal our biggest fears, our saddest moments, our
most shameful thoughts, and we all share and then workshop it.
(25:52):
And I obviously not everyone's the same, but typically, especially
austraining men will get together, have a beer and talk
about sport and work.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
Why yeah, well that was I think that was back
in the Mask era. Perhaps the most concrete thing that
came out of the Manhood Book was that it recommended
having a men's group and getting together with other guys
and not talking about sport or which career. And one
of the things that really shocked me was that people
(26:21):
had always said, and I think I bought this, that
men can't talk about their feelings. So we started to
tell some of those stories about the father wound and
this thing of the separation between men and dads, and
we found that thirty percent of the men never spoke
to their fathers, and another thirty spoke, but it was
(26:43):
just kind of, you know, going through the motions, and
another thirty did it out of duty, but it was
really boring. Only one man in ten was close to
his dad. That was horrendous Australian picture. And we talk
about this and men in those groups and also even
in the big audiences analysts, would you know, a thousand
(27:06):
people out in front of me, and I was talking
about that, and they'd be guys crying in the room
because I set it up with the lights before I
go in so I can see every face in the room.
Because I'm autistic, I freak out if I can't see
every face. And so I see every face. I know
everyone's with me, and I'm watching everyone and there's men
all over the room starting to cry, and and I'm thinking,
(27:28):
WHOA and occasionally. I talked to the ushers after the
show and they said there were two or three men left,
and I'd say, well, I probably had phone calls, and
they said no, no, they were really upset. And I thought, okay,
I've got to lighten up, because it's good to have
an impact, but you don't want them to leave.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
You're really unlooking there.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Trauma.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
Yeah, And so I learned to be funnier and lighter
as well as I went to deep water. But basically,
men have lots of feelings, and when they start to
come out, it's wonderful because you can when you can
feel your own wounds and you'll never inflict them on
somebody else. And so, you know, so guy's you know,
my dad killed himself and and I just felt like
(28:15):
it was, you know, he didn't care about me. I
wasn't enough to keep him alive. And when that comes
out in a group of a group of men, and
all the men's faces are so with you. You know,
no one's chirping up with a joke or advice, and
it's just there and it's honored. And I think we
don't talk as much as women do, but this and
(28:38):
even the man of today in the future, I still
think won't talk as much, but the sense of connection
will be there. They won't push down their feelings.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Steve, my husband's eleven years older than me, and he's
a bit old school. He's Italian as well, so it's
like there's not a lot of he hasn't grown up
with a whole lot of vulnerability, although he's surrounded by
you know, two sisters and his mum. But I feel
like this is like where almost the guinea pigs in
terms of parenting, this new approach, you know, and this
(29:12):
new take on vulnerability, especially in young men, and and
creating a safe space for that and encouraging that amongst
other things. You know, what are some of the typical
barriers that men face and expressing vulnerability and emotional needs
Because you know, I think if it's the dads, as
you say, the dads are the ones sort of paving
(29:34):
the way for their sons. They're still learning themselves.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
How do we crack the moment that's not to the point,
you know.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
How do I make my husband a big gooey teddy bear.
Speaker 4 (29:47):
And yeah, well, I mean you could give them a
coffee of the book. It's the book that's most thrown
against the wall.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
But you it's the both like, hey, baby, down this,
I just found it out on the side of the road.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Audio together.
Speaker 4 (30:07):
But there's a few things one to sink or swim,
which is you go away for a week and leave
them with the kids so they kind of make their way.
And because we often kind of step in and gate
keep or become the go between. Yeah, and a little
bit of that helps. I still to this day, Sharon
(30:27):
will still say, you really stuff that up. You know,
you need to apologize to your daughter.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
You stuff things up.
Speaker 4 (30:36):
Yeah, And so i'm you know, if it's done in
a diplomatic enough way, but if your husband's a bit defensive,
you know, to say, look, I think he might have
thought you meant this, or he doesn't know you know
that you what your world is like, you know, why
don't you tell him more of his story? And and
a really good thing from from six onwards is dads
(30:59):
and sons go away for the same with daughters go
off on trips together. Because on the second day, especially
if it's like you know, camping or staying in cheap
cabins in caravan parks things like that, you have to
cook and you go to clean, you got to do
a lot of things. You're sleep and in the same
place they start to talk. And also if you're open
(31:24):
to it and you can kind of be prepared for this,
they'll have like a big list of complaints of things
that they and so you can even ask and say, look,
what can I do to be a better dad for you?
I really want to be the dad you need. What
would you like different from what I do? And now
(31:47):
you can do this as a family around the table
sometime when your include mum as well, different ways in
But if dad and son, even like a seven year
old son, go away camping together, on the second day,
they'll probably have a blow up. And the blow up
will be not something going wrong, there's something going right
(32:07):
where the sun gets crabby and tired and hasn't enough.
Dad's a terrible cook, and it all comes out and
the dad sort of if he knows what he's doing,
sits down, says, you know, tell what's going on. You know,
we've got to get along. You know, it's with five
hours from home, we don't have to see days to go.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
We've got to make this work, buddy.
Speaker 4 (32:29):
Yeah, And sometimes there's a kind of a breakthrough happens
and they come back and their mates. So it's a
bit fraud and yeah, but it's important.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
I feel like that, you know, even on a way,
like I've got my son and two daughters as well,
very close in age, and my husband and even myself
very rarely get a chance to have one on one
time with any of our children because you neither got
two or one or swopsias or you know. It's just
the logistical part of a parenthood, I suppose. But even
(33:01):
in the case where my husband has spent a Sunday
with my son or they've gone fishing or something, you know,
and had to start with my son doesn't want to go,
and then he comes back and he's like, it's the
there was the best day ever, you know, because what
it will be in his mind, it's so much more
than that in reality, you know, like, yeah, he's thinking
about a fishing rod and standing there and maybe he
(33:21):
doesn't like the weather. But the connection that comes from
just quality time and especially on a rare one on
one experience with your parent, I just think is just
beyond you.
Speaker 4 (33:31):
Know, I have great hopes for your Oh.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Sorry, I'm turning this into my own personal my own
personal manhood, says such a session, Steve, I love that
and going and doing camping and activities and fishing, and
you're going to have those conversations for people who are listening,
and they think, Okay, well my partner, my husband, he'll
do the activities with my kids and he's great and
(33:58):
he turns up. But he cannot open up. He cannot
be emotional, he can't be vulnerable in the marriage with children.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
It's just not who he is. A tough nut to
crack like, he's not a how do we did you say?
He's not awful? He's not awful.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
It's like if this is just if you look at
that whole.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
You know, men are from Mars, women are from venus.
We are built differently.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
If someone just really struggles to open up and be vulnerable,
whether it's in parenting or in a relationship, what sort
of strategies can we as I guess you know, if
you think women are listening, what can we do?
Speaker 4 (34:32):
Yeah? Okay, Now there's two sides to it. I mean,
the one is that he's never going to have a
good life if he doesn't learn that at some stage.
You know, it's say it's separated from from a dad.
His next marriage won't work either if he doesn't learn that,
and he'll struggle. But and so you would always want
(34:53):
him to get help. From the son's point of view,
it's like it's a practical problem now, and so it's
the thing. And for every single mum listening, and so
much of my work over forty years has been with
mums raising boys on their own. And we always really
clear women can raise boys on their own very well.
(35:13):
They've done that for thousands of years. But when I
talked to mums on their own, and I meet people
who are my clients forty years ago in the supermarket,
you know, in Lnsston, came back to Tazzy and I
meet people, what did you do? How did it go?
Speaker 3 (35:29):
It said?
Speaker 4 (35:30):
I knew I had to get good men into his life.
So I got his uncle, who's a very rouded cut
of the guy to be the one who takes him fishing,
or his grand hang out with his granddad, or he
just really liked his martial arts teacher, who was sort
of guy I'd like to marry his martial arts teacher.
(35:50):
And so, you know, how can we organize for more
of that in his life? And so that he sees
what good men look like, and so it doesn't have
to be his actual dad.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
That's a really good point.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
I think the village comes back to the village. Yeah,
whether they've got a or not, everyone everyone needs a
really Yeah, and yeah, I think not every not every
individual can be everything to everyone.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
So that's a good nobody can.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Yeah, humans aren't islands, you know what I mean? Like
when where we are the most social creatures on the planet. Yes,
this is I love, this is my jam Steve. What
is the future of men?
Speaker 4 (36:35):
Oh okay, it hangs in the balance. Oh god, yes,
I mean we've got the monsters, you know, the trumps
and the subjects monsters.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
It takes.
Speaker 4 (36:45):
Yeah, And it's like when I go kayaking, are's this
thing happens and at the mouth of a river when
the tide changes, some of the tides coming in and
someone's going out at the same time at the picture
and we just have to work on on this.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
You know.
Speaker 4 (37:01):
It's the you know, I gave this forty years. You know.
Raising Boys is the is the top selling parenting book
in the world. There are millions of people getting boys
to make pasta millions of dads giving it a go,
flying kites, going to the park, pushing prams. Us guys
have got to do it, and we've got to name
up the other stuff as absolute shit. You know, those
(37:24):
guys are hopeless man, their baby man, they're fake man.
And to tell those teenagers it won't work. You know,
if you do misogyny and you treat women as something inferior,
women will hate you. They will see you for what
you are and they'll hate you. And you have a choice,
(37:45):
you know, either learn to be vulnerable and open with
the girls in your life and stick up for them,
or you will be a loser forever. And I think
sometimes the most boys know what we're talking about, but
some kind of hang in the balance a little bit,
you know what I mean, They kind of trying it on.
And we need in this, you know, to step up
and say, you know, it doesn't work. Doesn't work, not.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
An option anymore.
Speaker 4 (38:10):
Yeah, And even you know, as a mom, say to
your son if you have you know, I'm your mum
and I love you. You ever heard a woman I belong
to the tribe of women. I will just pour coals
on your head for you. And you know this is
this is a non negotiable, never ever exploit a girl,
never ever gaslight, take advantage of ganging up on.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
And those conversations evolve as they get older, because in
the playground it's about pushing someone over, but obviously it
gets more and more complex, so it's about having to
keep having those conversations at every stage. Well, Steve, we
love having you. Every time we see your gorgeous face
and hear your beautiful, soothing voice, we just, you know,
(38:58):
feel like we're talking to our dads.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Yes, you're so sweet. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
And also we'll share a link in the show notes
of how you can grab a copy of The New
Manhood and Steve's other best selling books, Raising Boys, Raising
Girls and Wild Creature Mind.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Thank you, Steve Off.
Speaker 4 (39:14):
Great to talk to you to Daughter Figures.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Thank you so much for listening to this glorious mess.
We hope you enjoyed the episode. This episode was produced
by Tina Matlov with audio production by Jacob Brown. See
you next time.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
Bye,
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