March 16, 2025 • 33 mins
What do you do when your child prefers one parent over the other? How do you navigate preferential treatment without feeling rejected? And is there anything wrong with your 10 year old still wanting to sleep in your bed?!
Dr Golly is here to answer all our parenting woes and give us hope!
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CREDITS:
Host: Tegan Natoli, Annaliese Todd
With thanks to Dr Golly
Dr Golly’s Sleep and Toddler Toolkit Parenting Programs
Producer: Tina Matolov
Audio Producer: Jacob Round
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a Mama Mia podcast. Mama Mia acknowledges
the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
is recorded on Hello, and welcome to this glorious mess.
We're embracing the chaos together. We're ditching the judgment. I'm
(00:31):
Analise Todd, single parent, part time insomniac, and held together
currently by oatmakers and dry shampoo. Oh, I've got shampoo
trauma at the moment because I'm taking it. Tolly and
I have three kids, two in y two, one in
y one, and I actually can't believe we made it
this far without never having nits. But it happened recently
(00:53):
on a family holiday. Everyone but of course my husband.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Yeah, the husbands don't get it. Oh so you had nits?
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Hey, I didn't even know, Like I just I just
checked myself with the comb in case I wasn't itchy.
I'm itchy, but these things were in my head and
I I could not sleep, not from the itch but no.
I thought of the mating on your head, yes, and
sucking your plight.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
So and then I was like going down a major
TikTok like rabbit hole and looking at these like knit videofestations.
Stop it's the stop myself, it's the worst.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
But anyway, I've popped my knit cherry.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I'm kind of glad.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Oh my gosh, I can't believe we made it this far,
but I'm really traumatized from it. I'm not gonna lie today.
Joining us has nothing to do with nits, but on
this glorious mess. Today we are joined by doctor Golly,
a leading Melbourne pediatrician and sleep expert who's helping exhausted
families across Australia find their way to RESTful nights.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Oh my gosh, don't we all.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Please help us doctor Golly.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Yes, we're looking so forward to that.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
We're actually going to be talking about preferred parent syndrome,
which I love that it's a syndrome. I don't know
if I made that, but as when a child consum
distantly chooses one parent for you know, whether it's comfort
or bedtime or just any sort of routines, or maybe
when they're heard or upset and they just can actually
refuse the other.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Parents help completely. Yeah, which is interesting.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
I think that's it's a hard dynamic in a family
to balance, Like you know, it's it is quite different
to the default parent, you know, the default parent is
the one that generally does all the things. Yes, but
this is coming from the child as to who they prefer. Yeah,
so it's almost like, hey, you know, my partner might
be offering to pick them up from school, but your
child doesn't want them to, you know, exactly makes it
(02:46):
a little bit trickier. But yeah, this is a very
developmentally normal thing to happen in families, and doctor Gollie
is going to be expertly guiding us through this minefield
as well as offering advice for one of your dilemmas.
Help how do I get my child out of my bed?
And I can't wait to hear his answer for this,
because how do I get my three children out of
(03:08):
my bed? I'm so here for this.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
That's coming up soon.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
But first, tigs, here's what's going on in my group chat.
So recently there was an article on Mumma mea dot
com dot au by Heidi Anderson.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
So it's a wonderful platform. You should visit it sometime
too regularly.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
So she's a former radio star in Perth and she's
an online personality and so she's I think she's got
you know, I think it's about forty five thousand followers,
so she's got a pretty good following online. And she
said that she always shared pictures and videos of her
baby and then kid, but when he was five, her
(03:50):
son was at a train station with his grandma, so
like her mother in law, so she wasn't there, and
a man came up to them and said hello and
said his name, I follow Heidi on Instagram. And she
said when her mother in law told her, it was
like something really shifted.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
This is really interesting.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
It is because I I certainly don't have forty five
thousand followers on Instagram, but this has happened with my
mother in law while she's had my kids. And look,
my mother in law lives where I grew up, so
anyone that does follow me is potentially someone I actually know.
But in the case of strangers, you know, like going
(04:29):
up to your children or going.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Up to you know, your mother in law.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Yeah, and it actually kind of rattled her a bit.
She was like, She's like, oh, you know, I was
at the park and they recognized my kids first.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
And then went up and said like hi, oh Teagan. Yeah,
So what did it make her reassess?
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Well, she now doesn't show her son's face, but she
does a little emoji over the first yeah, which I
think a lot of people are starting to do from
birth now. Yes, I like they're just choosing not to
show the.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
Adult at all.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
I used to put my kids' faces online when they
were little, little, and then I think I stopped a
around the time maybe my eldest got to primary school,
and then I did like I would have them maybe
in Instagram stories, which would disappear, but I didn't have
them anywhere publicly on the grid, And it was just
more a decision.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
I can't remember why.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
I just I think something hit me where I went, oh,
I don't know if I should be sharing their lives
permanently online at this age when they don't have a
choice and they don't understand it. And so it just
kind of for a few years, and then of course
I was like separating and like I just didn't want
my kids in any sort of public domain at that time.
(05:45):
But then interestingly, I've got now ten and about to
turn thirteen, and they wanted to start doing stuff like
they wanted I think my oldest son wanted to do
modeling or something, and I was like, no, and I
was like, no, I don't have time.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
To slip around to castings during their work day.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
But I said, why don't we talk to daddy about
if you can do some videos with my work because
I get paid to put things through mum Mer and
squad on Instagram. Anyway, So I had a conversation with
the co parent and he agreed. He's like, look, they're
at an age now where they understand, isn't that They.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Know that it's like going to be places.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Yeah, and they know that their face will be there,
and there are mean people on the internet and I'm
paying them, yes, and they really like earning money. So
well that's it, you know that springy card. My kids
are the same, like they're a part of my branded
content and like I explained to them what that means
and so they understand where it will be. But my
kids are like at the age where they you know,
(06:42):
they might be scrolling YouTube. They literally beg me to
start a YouTube channel.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
I'm like, doing what, I know, what are you going
to do?
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Like film yourself playing video dancing?
Speaker 3 (06:51):
They film you remember the one?
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Oh anyway, no, I might at the moment, it's a
no to the YouTube to their own YouTube channel. But yeah,
for as much as they can get a few little
extra dollars on their Springy card and doing some branded
stuff with me.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
If they're happy to, I'm happy for them too.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
It was funny though this article though, when she said
that it did stir some thing uncomfortable in me about myself.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
I should about yourself, like what, you're exploiting your children?
Speaker 1 (07:16):
No, No, because they know that their image is there
and they're being paid, So I don't feel like they're
being exploited at all. If anything, there are any more
money than their friends right now.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
But it was.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
More about that strangers recognizing them. I don't have a
big enough following. I don't think that it would happen,
but it just it's felt icky just if I wasn't
there and they were like on their way to school
and if a stranger recognize them. In the article, she
sort of went down the sort of like safety angle,
and it was like an issue of safety and it's
(07:48):
like exposing them more to like creepy people, And that's
what made me feel icky obviously, but like kids are
potentially exposed to creepy people regardless.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yeah, see, I underst needed your ear on this, Oh yeah, because.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
You knew I was going to say what you wanted
to hear.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
You're welcome.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
So after this short break, Teags will be diving into
my with Dr Gollie navigating preferred parent syndrome.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
That's next.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Can't wait to hear it.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
So and at least it's interesting because you and I
had similar dynamics when it came to preferred parenting.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
It wasn't a real to preferred parenting.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
There wasn't a really strong instance of.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
It, whereas I do feel like in the instances I
know of girlfriends and their children. I've got one girlfriend
who's got one child, and that there definitely was and
is a really strongly preferred parent in that dynamic. And
I think what I probably couldn't relate to but observed
(08:50):
a lot in her family dynamic was how tough it
was on that non preferred parent because its rejection.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Almost hurts your feelings.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
And this person, this parent wants to be involved and
wants to.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Yeah, but the kid didn't want a bar of it.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
And then also, on the other hand, how hard it
is for that preferred parent because then they are expected
and wanted to do all the things as well.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
So and that's so taxing and then burnout and you
need a brain.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Yeah, and it will be really interesting to hear what
doctor Gollie's got to say about that, because I'm sure
there's many families that are in similar situations, whether it
is one child or more than one child. But talking
about preferred parents, we came across this parent's experience, which
pretty much sums it up.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
Take a listen, my Tolery now, who's two and a half,
is going through a huge mom only face. He wants
me to do everything. He has absolutely no interest in
my husband helping. Pretty much, if my husband comes up
to change his stapor or get him out of bed
or give him lunch, there's like a no, I want
to have me to do it sort of screaming situation.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Doctor Gollie brings practical, evidence based sleep solutions that actually work.
He's known for his straightforward approach to solving sleep challenges
from newborn's to teens. He's also a dat of three,
so has real life expertise as well as clinical Welcome
to this glorious mess, doctor Gollie.
Speaker 5 (10:15):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
So, Doctor Gollie, what exactly is preferred parent syndrome?
Speaker 2 (10:23):
And is it very common.
Speaker 5 (10:24):
Oh, it is very common, and it is exactly what
it sounds like when a toddler. I mean, it can
start with at a very young age for different reasons,
but when a toddler essentially chooses one parent over the
other for their needs of the time, So preferred parent
is not necessarily I only want mum it. Maybe I
want mum for this, I want dad for that, I
(10:48):
want Grandma for this. You know, it doesn't only have
to be parent as well, but it is most commonly
it's going to happen as early as when separation anxiety
kicks in, but it's most common in the toddler years.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
And so when you say it's earlier separation anxiety, because
it's been a million years for me, what sort of
age is that?
Speaker 5 (11:07):
Oh? Look, you know you can see parental preference happening
from as early as nine months, more common around toddler
years eighteen months, and then two, three, four, But it
happens for different reasons. So you know, the most common
time when parents will experience parental preference is more like
your two or three years of age, the typical toddler years.
(11:31):
It's driven partly by a sense of this growing autonomy,
this desire for a toddler to control their environment, to
have a say in the actions and you know, the
steps of life. But it also depends on the need
at the time. You know, there may be a time
when they've got a big feeling and they want they
prefer the more nurturing parent, and times when they want
(11:53):
to play and they want to rough and tumble, they
want them more play for parents. So it's enormously challenging
for anyone who's been on the receiving end of not
being the preferred parent. It really sucks, you know, and
most commonly I see it with mums, you know where
certainly was the case with me with one of my
three kids. I used to get home from work and
(12:14):
you know, it's awful because mum had done everything for
this child, for our daughter at the time, and you know,
had the routine and had the food and the sleep
and the play and activities and play dates, and then
I would get home and all they want to do
is play with me. And while it's very flattering, it's
really not nice on the person who is not the
(12:36):
preferred parent at the time. And it can also be
very exhausting when they want only one person to feed them,
only one person to bat them, only one person to
play with them, only one person to put them to bed.
Not to mention the fact that logistically it can be
challenging if it's simply not possible at the time.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Yeah, it's so taxing if you're just so overtouched and
you're the preferred parent and you're having to do everything.
But then it's also, I would imagine it's also really hurtful,
even though you're the grown up and you understand it's
not personal and it's developmental and it's normal, but it
would be so hurtful to think, oh my god, my
kid like doesn't want to.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Be near me.
Speaker 5 (13:12):
It's things, and you know, it doesn't matter how many
times you talk about it and you think through it
logically and rationally. I've been at times the non preferred parent,
and you know, you can say as many times as
you want, they're just a two year old. You know,
it's nothing personal, they don't hate you, et cetera, et cetera.
It stings, It really hurts. There's no question.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
It sounds like you've had first hand experience with this. Obviously,
you know clinically things, but then you've now also experienced
it in real life. How did you work that through
with your clinical knowledge and use it practically in your
real life situation and make it work.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
It's a really fantastic question. I think the most important
thing to understand is that your children will cycle through
in and out of having a parental preference phase, not
to mention cycling who the parental preference is with, so
it's always changed. And you know, there is this common
thing that I do that I tell all parents of patients.
(14:18):
When you come across something that is challenging from a
behavioral point of view, if it comes from a positive
developmental progression, you have to acknowledge that. You know, you've
got to say, as frustrating as this is or as
hurtful as this feels, I'm really glad that my toddler
has this growing autonomy because that's normal. So that's the
(14:42):
first thing I would say. And you know, I may
be the on paper, the expert when it comes to children,
but that doesn't mean that I don't go through or
I haven't been through parental preference. As you said on
the receiving end, you know it goes both ways. So
so much of this is normal toddler behavior and we
need to celebrate it and sometimes that can just elongate
your teth that make you feel a little bit better
(15:03):
about it and get you through the day to the
next one. And also trusting that it will change. It
will change, and there are things you can do, and
it's important to be aware of what you can do
as opposed to getting bogged down in the feeling that
negative feeling.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Yeah, I like that. Don't get bogged down in the feeling.
It's not personal.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
So how long would these phases and stages typically last
and what are the sort of phrases and things practically
that you can say to kids to try and encourage
involving or letting the other parent be involved.
Speaker 5 (15:35):
Yeah, great questions, no rules. In terms of duration, it
can be a day, it can be months. Some of
the things that you want to make sure are probably
the most important thing is parental alignment. You really want
to have the same behaviors between parents. Now, one parent
may be more nurturing, one parent maybe more rough and tumbled.
That's fine, but you can't have one parent allowing chocolate
(15:57):
after dinner and the other one saying no. You can't
have one parent with much more much looser screen time
allowance and the other one being tighter, because then you
create a lot of friction. And if you have parental alignment,
a child far more comfortable knowing that the boundaries are
consistent and they don't play one parent off the other.
So that's really really important. The child is less likely
(16:19):
to preference one over the other if they know that
the answer is the same no matter who they speak
to or who they ask or who they get for bedtime, etc.
The other thing is have some time. If life permits
to have both parents putting a child to bed, you
know there isn't a reason why you can't both put
a child to bed, even if you have competing interests.
(16:41):
You can make it happen. And also never fall into
the trap of belittling your co parent with your child.
So if your child says, oh, I can't stand when
daddy does this or that, you never want to say, oh, yeah,
I can't stand that either. You never want to know
join in the bashing. You want to always back up
(17:03):
your partner. Talk about the positives, talk about what you
love about your partner. You know the reason why you
love bedtime with marm or whatever the situation may be
or who drops who at school, who takes care of
the bath, you know, build them up so that the
child sees them in a positive light and therefore they're
more likely to want to spend time with them.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
We actually just talked about this on an episode a
couple of weeks ago, and we said, like, the golden
standard is like the family from the Castle. It's it's
not even about being positive. It's like bragging about.
Speaker 5 (17:38):
How good your partner is.
Speaker 4 (17:39):
Yeah, absolutely, it is.
Speaker 5 (17:41):
The other thing. The last thing I want to say
about parental preference is that because of the timing of
todder autonomy, that evolution, it tends to happen just after
the arrival of a new baby. And so the most
common thing that I see from a parental preference point
of view is the toddler preferencing the father and almost
punishing the mother because the truth is.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
They really want the mother, Yeah, totally.
Speaker 5 (18:05):
And the baby. You know, their perception is that the
baby has stolen the mother. So that's where my concept
of cross parenting comes in. And I don't know if
you're familiar with it, but you know, I've written lots
and lots about this and talk about it a lot.
The assumption is that the newborn has to be managed
by the mother and the toddler is then managed by
the father. It's almost like your single parents who happen
(18:28):
to live together ships in the night.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
It doesn't have to be that naturally does happen, doesn't that.
Speaker 5 (18:32):
It just doesn't have to be that way. And there's
a big behavior deterioration that happens in the toddler when
the newborn becomes three months of age. It's really really predictable,
and you can completely prevent it, including parental preference, just
by cross parenting, which means father does everything for the
newborn except what he can't, ie the setting of a
(18:55):
breastfed baby, but everything else can be done by the dad,
and the mum is free to a most importantly recover
and replenish, but also to be around for the toddler
if that's what they prefer.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
I definitely remember when I my second and I remember
my eldest child just acting out so terribly, and then
it wasn't until like I actually like took him out
of the house on his own and just me and
him hung out, and there was like an instant shift,
and I was like, oh God, I should have done
that before.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
He's really just wanted some time with me, the poor bugger,
exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
I've got one other question about preferred parenting. Obviously, it's
very common, very normal.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Is there any.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Sort of typical behaviors or any length of time where
you know people might go, Okay, this is probably developing
into an unhealthy attachment, This might not be healthy, this
might not be normal, and when people might need help.
Speaker 5 (19:50):
Yeah, I think it's more about the degree of discomfort
as opposed to the duration separation anxiety. For example, when
you are dropping a kid off at daycare, is very
normal for a child to object and plead for the
parent not to leave, but you see that that dissipates
over time, and you know you can de escalate them,
(20:12):
or that the daycare workers can de escalate them quite quickly.
If you're seeing an escalation in the tantrum and you know,
severe severe behaviors, that becoming abnormal and sort of moving,
it's a very gray area, but moving to the point
you know, headbanging, self harm, et cetera. That's when you
start to wonder if perhaps there's something more at play.
(20:35):
And again, you know if it's Dad is turned to
put you to bed because mum's not home, or mum's unwell,
or mum's busy feeding, whatever it may be. There may
be some objection, but eventually we will tolerate. It's not
that we hate dad, it's just that we prefer mum.
But if you find that that is leading to significant
(20:56):
meltdown behavior beyond you know what is reasonable to expect
of a toddler, that's when you start to wonder if
perhaps there is a developmental or a behavioral problem that
would then need to be seeing investigation by a pedatrician,
perhaps a play therapist, psychologist's lots of different avenues.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
There After this very short break, doctor Golly will be
back with us and tackling one of your dilemmas. You
sent in help how do I get my child out
of my bed? That's next, So, Doctor Gollie, we were
sent in a dilemma via the Muma mea family Facebook
page with someone who wanted your help, and I'm going
(21:38):
to read it out on their behalf.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Dear doctor Golly. It reminds me of Dear Dolly.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
My daughter is ten years old and refuses to sleep
in her own bed she says she's scared and likes
sleeping in my bed. I've indulged this until now because
we've gone through a marriage separation, so I wanted to
give her that extra support.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
But it's been years now, and I worry she is
getting a bit long in the tooth. Help. I am
ready for her to get out of my bed now.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
I want to caveat this before you get into it,
docor Dolly that this is only a problem if the
person wants someone out of there.
Speaker 5 (22:13):
I'm so glad you said that. I love that. Honestly,
that was going to be my very first comment. This
is not a problem. If it's not a.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Problem, correct, because co sleeping with a ten year old.
Speaker 5 (22:24):
Heaven absolutely fine.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Oh night cuddles, stunning.
Speaker 5 (22:29):
Five in the morning. This morning, no word of a lie.
My ten year old was in bed with me, and
like you said, like he's the most adorable koala to
cuddle and I didn't kick him out. I've got no
problem with that at all. So absolutely right, it's completely
fine if it's okay with you, but clearly it's not
okay for this month.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Yeah, and then as I think as well, like just
reading into that, it's like at ten years old, if
she feels like she can't sleep in her own bed, yes,
that's not just like a popping in every now and
then when there's a thunderstorm.
Speaker 5 (23:00):
Yeah, that's exactly right. So to manage this, if you
have to ask yourself, what do you want? Okay, if
you are someone who is very, very adamant that you
don't want your children sleeping in your bed on a
nightly basis, then the earlier you stop the co sleeping,
(23:20):
the better, there's no question. And also the more structured
and reliable, consistent routine that you have, the more likely
you are to succeed, because ultimately it's going to be
significantly easier to achieve this change if you've got a
good sleeper. So if there are major sleep issues, if
(23:41):
we are trying to put to bed an overtired child
or even teenager, and we're trying to put them to
bed in their own room where they don't want to be,
it's almost like a recipe for disaster, and it's just
not going to work, and it's going to become this
worsening problem because you're then dealing with overtired on top
(24:02):
of the emotional changes and challenges that you're dealing with.
I think, like we touched on before, positive reinforcement is
really really important talking about how well someone's done. So
if someone is able to achieve a period of time
in their own bed and then they enter yours, I
would focus on the fact that they achieved time in
(24:22):
their own bed as opposed to the fact that they
entered yours at some point in the night. Then you
have almost like sleep training approaches, and you've got everything
from cold turkey, which is just putting in their own
room and we're going to rip off the band aid
and deal with it short term paining to achieve the
long term desired effect. And then you've got the more
(24:44):
gentle approach. And again it's all about you. What your
choice is, your temperament. It's also the temperament of your child.
If there's a pressing issue that's coming that necessitates the change.
I think the key if you are returning a child
to bed who has entered your room in the night,
is about a calm return. Now there are two parts
(25:05):
to this. You don't want to engage in a fight
at two in the morning. You don't want to get
cortisol going, the adrenaline going trying to rationalize and you know,
talk through logic, and you can't teach it too in
the morning. It's just not going to work. You're not
going to do a good job. Your child's not going
to be open to it. The second part is you
(25:26):
don't want to reward them in any way, and you
know that saying I'm going to butcher this, but or
any any attention is good attention. Any media is good media,
even if it's.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Bad, and any press is good press.
Speaker 5 (25:40):
Yes, yes, So sometimes for a child, especially younger children
and toddlers, any response from a parent is good, even
if it is an angry parent or a frustrated parent.
So you want to almost be and this is what
I teach my patient's parents. You want to almost be
this calm, borderline, perfunctory, robotic version of you where you
(26:05):
just take their hand and very calmly walk them back
to their bed and give them no positive reinforcement for
coming to get you. So you might get up ten
times on night one, but only three times on night
two and once on night three, and then it's done.
And the reason is because they always end up in
their own bed, so they lose the desire. There's no
(26:27):
reward for coming to your bed. But also they don't
get the fun. They don't get to interact with you,
they don't get to have a conversation, they don't get
to troubleshit whatever it is that they're attempting to try
to get your attention, they're not getting it. Now. Having
said that, in the morning, when you do wake up,
you need to strip off that robotic mum or robotic
(26:50):
dad persona and be showering them with love and attention
and as we said, positive reinforcement if they have managed
to stay in bed, and again you focus on the
time spent in bed, not the number of times they
came to your bed and you had to return them.
So positive, positive, positive, And it's almost like showing them
(27:11):
during the nighttime don't bother. You're getting a rubbish version
of me. I'm here, you're safe. Yeah, but it's not
time to play. But during the daytime and in the
morning it's the best version.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
And is this the same just say from like a
ten year old to I don't know when are they
in their own beds?
Speaker 4 (27:33):
Too?
Speaker 5 (27:35):
Like?
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Is this would you use like a very similar approach
in terms of.
Speaker 5 (27:38):
Yeah, yeah, there are subtle differences you know, in a
two year old, i'd be engaging with some sort of
clock obviously not with numbers. You know, with shapes and
colors there are different.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
And the stars.
Speaker 5 (27:54):
Yeah, just to you know, a todd that wakes up
at three in the morning, they have no idea if
it's six point thirty or if it's three or eleven PM.
So you want to give them a concept of time
which they can understand with the stars or the sheep
or whatever that product is. Also, of course, you're you're
you know, we talked about the importance of routine. There's
also the importance of the room environments. We want to
(28:15):
make sure, you know, a two year old might be
having nightmare. So you go from having a blacked out room,
which was necessary early on, to having a night light
or a soft you know, pink hue to the room
or a corridor light something like that. You know, white
noise might still be important. Some people turn it off,
you know, when they transition a toddler to a big bed.
(28:35):
There's no need to turn off white noise. So there's
lots of different you know, the low hanging fruit is
what I call them. To maintain a good sleep environment,
hopefully those things have been started earlier on. Then there
are other things you can use. You know. One of
my favorite more gentle parenting techniques is a process that
some people refer to as camping out, where instead of
(28:57):
them coming to your room, you actually move into their room.
And you know, it's a slow process. It takes about
two weeks, but you ever so slowly move your single
mattress away from their bed, eventually to the door, or
eventually outside the door, eventually into the corridor. It's just
edging away ten centimeters a night so that there is
this acceptable separation between your child and you. It's challenging
(29:23):
for the parent, but most of my families who do
it will respond, you know, we'll talk about how successful
it was and then say, why didn't I do this sooner? Yeah,
but it is never too late.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
It's tricky, isn't it, Because yeah, like, I love, you know,
having a cuddle with a kid in the bed, and
I'm single, so it's not really an issue for me
to have you one of my kids jump in my bed.
But if you are married, it it's a bit of
a buzzkill having a child in your bed every night.
So it's probably something that people do want to sort
(29:57):
of move away from But in terms of so you're saying,
in terms of the original dilemma for the daughter who's ten,
it's not a developmental issue that she can't sleep in
her own bed.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
It's just it's okay, it's what she needs right now.
Speaker 5 (30:09):
I mean, I don't know enough about this particular ten
year old, but if there are no other concerns, you know,
during the day, evening, etc. It's probably habitual. And you know,
you can change a child's habit far quicker than you
can change an adult. But it's the keys that it's
(30:30):
absolutely possible. And again coming back to what you said
at the very beginning, if that's what you.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Want, yeah, totally. And if you want to go sleep,
then go sleep.
Speaker 5 (30:40):
It's glory absolutely.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
And if you are having trouble with your baby or
child sleep, or a toddler is driving about the wall,
Doctor Gollie's Sleep and Toddler Toolkit parenting programs are a
game changer. They're available at Doctorgollie dot com and all
of the info will be.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
In the show notes.
Speaker 5 (30:58):
Thanks for having me, so TIGS.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
One of the things I got from that first chat
with doctor Gollie about preferred parenting was just to really
remove the feeling out of it, like if you are
not the preferred parent, like it's actually it's not about you.
Doesn't mean your child doesn't like you. It's a normal
developmental milestone. It's almost like your time will come, Like
you know, at the moment they want to they what
they need is from mum, and you know in five
(31:28):
months time it might be what they need from dad. Yeah,
So to take the feeling out of it, and also
how important it is to be a united front in
front of the kids, which we've talked about on a
couple of episodes ago. And it was just like that
modeling that you know, to really brag about the other parents,
so that that is modeled and the child will start
to hopefully.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
Also feeling also like them too.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
So that was lovely and I loved also that he
had experienced this. I mean, obviously I creepily enjoyed hearing
that perspective. Yeah, he'd been both the preferred parent and
the non preferred parent. And I love that idea of
when there is another baby that and this is obviously
heteronomitic relationships, but that mum doesn't become in charge of
(32:13):
newborn and dad doesn't become in charge of toddler.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
That is so interesting, is it?
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Because it is it's just naturally what we do, like, oh,
you know, mum, baby needs mum, so that's that's her priority.
And but that's only if they're breastfeeding, and only during breastfeeding.
Like another parent can do everything in and around that. Yeah,
it's so interesting from all perspectives, from the other parent,
from the other child's perspective, from newborn baby, getting a
(32:41):
little bit of the other parent as well, and then
with the sleep and getting a kid out of your bed.
I love that he was so aligned and not judging,
and he was like, it's only a problem.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
If it's a problem, it's a problem for you.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
And if you want them in your bed, then they
can stay in your bed. And there's no issue with
a ten year old being in your bed. And I
thought that was beautiful advice. But I loved the I
think he called it like robotic and being that neutral
presence in the night so they're not getting any feedback. Yeah,
almost like sleep training like you would a baby.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
And that's like you know, if you did sleep train,
you'd remember it's like no emotion, don't look them in
the eye. It's so funny, isn't it. We're a bit
past that now, but god, it's the same thing. But
you know, you new age new struggles, right.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
Well, thank you for listening to this ghoss mess.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
We do hope you enjoyed the show, and if you
did love it, please feel free to leave us a
rating or review, and please keep sharing with us on
the Mumma Mere Family Facebook page. Send us your dilemmas,
send us all of your things. We love hearing from you,
and we also love getting experts to answer your dilemmas
because we also need help and learn, and we also
don't have all the answers, certainly not experts. You can
(33:52):
find us on the Mamma Mea Family Instagram or Facebook page.
This episode was produced by Tina Matlov with audio production
by Jacob Brown.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
We'll see you next time, Sea,
You're listening to a Mama Mia podcast. Mama Mia acknowledges
the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
is recorded on Hello, and welcome to this glorious mess.
We're embracing the chaos together. We're ditching the judgment. I'm
(00:31):
Analise Todd, single parent, part time insomniac, and held together
currently by oatmakers and dry shampoo. Oh, I've got shampoo
trauma at the moment because I'm taking it. Tolly and
I have three kids, two in y two, one in
y one, and I actually can't believe we made it
this far without never having nits. But it happened recently
(00:53):
on a family holiday. Everyone but of course my husband.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Yeah, the husbands don't get it. Oh so you had nits?
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Hey, I didn't even know, Like I just I just
checked myself with the comb in case I wasn't itchy.
I'm itchy, but these things were in my head and
I I could not sleep, not from the itch but no.
I thought of the mating on your head, yes, and
sucking your plight.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
So and then I was like going down a major
TikTok like rabbit hole and looking at these like knit videofestations.
Stop it's the stop myself, it's the worst.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
But anyway, I've popped my knit cherry.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I'm kind of glad.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Oh my gosh, I can't believe we made it this far,
but I'm really traumatized from it. I'm not gonna lie today.
Joining us has nothing to do with nits, but on
this glorious mess. Today we are joined by doctor Golly,
a leading Melbourne pediatrician and sleep expert who's helping exhausted
families across Australia find their way to RESTful nights.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Oh my gosh, don't we all.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Please help us doctor Golly.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Yes, we're looking so forward to that.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
We're actually going to be talking about preferred parent syndrome,
which I love that it's a syndrome. I don't know
if I made that, but as when a child consum
distantly chooses one parent for you know, whether it's comfort
or bedtime or just any sort of routines, or maybe
when they're heard or upset and they just can actually
refuse the other.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Parents help completely. Yeah, which is interesting.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
I think that's it's a hard dynamic in a family
to balance, Like you know, it's it is quite different
to the default parent, you know, the default parent is
the one that generally does all the things. Yes, but
this is coming from the child as to who they prefer. Yeah,
so it's almost like, hey, you know, my partner might
be offering to pick them up from school, but your
child doesn't want them to, you know, exactly makes it
(02:46):
a little bit trickier. But yeah, this is a very
developmentally normal thing to happen in families, and doctor Gollie
is going to be expertly guiding us through this minefield
as well as offering advice for one of your dilemmas.
Help how do I get my child out of my bed?
And I can't wait to hear his answer for this,
because how do I get my three children out of
(03:08):
my bed? I'm so here for this.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
That's coming up soon.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
But first, tigs, here's what's going on in my group chat.
So recently there was an article on Mumma mea dot
com dot au by Heidi Anderson.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
So it's a wonderful platform. You should visit it sometime
too regularly.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
So she's a former radio star in Perth and she's
an online personality and so she's I think she's got
you know, I think it's about forty five thousand followers,
so she's got a pretty good following online. And she
said that she always shared pictures and videos of her
baby and then kid, but when he was five, her
(03:50):
son was at a train station with his grandma, so
like her mother in law, so she wasn't there, and
a man came up to them and said hello and
said his name, I follow Heidi on Instagram. And she
said when her mother in law told her, it was
like something really shifted.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
This is really interesting.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
It is because I I certainly don't have forty five
thousand followers on Instagram, but this has happened with my
mother in law while she's had my kids. And look,
my mother in law lives where I grew up, so
anyone that does follow me is potentially someone I actually know.
But in the case of strangers, you know, like going
(04:29):
up to your children or going.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Up to you know, your mother in law.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Yeah, and it actually kind of rattled her a bit.
She was like, She's like, oh, you know, I was
at the park and they recognized my kids first.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
And then went up and said like hi, oh Teagan. Yeah,
So what did it make her reassess?
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Well, she now doesn't show her son's face, but she
does a little emoji over the first yeah, which I
think a lot of people are starting to do from
birth now. Yes, I like they're just choosing not to
show the.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
Adult at all.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
I used to put my kids' faces online when they
were little, little, and then I think I stopped a
around the time maybe my eldest got to primary school,
and then I did like I would have them maybe
in Instagram stories, which would disappear, but I didn't have
them anywhere publicly on the grid, And it was just
more a decision.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
I can't remember why.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
I just I think something hit me where I went, oh,
I don't know if I should be sharing their lives
permanently online at this age when they don't have a
choice and they don't understand it. And so it just
kind of for a few years, and then of course
I was like separating and like I just didn't want
my kids in any sort of public domain at that time.
(05:45):
But then interestingly, I've got now ten and about to
turn thirteen, and they wanted to start doing stuff like
they wanted I think my oldest son wanted to do
modeling or something, and I was like, no, and I
was like, no, I don't have time.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
To slip around to castings during their work day.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
But I said, why don't we talk to daddy about
if you can do some videos with my work because
I get paid to put things through mum Mer and
squad on Instagram. Anyway, So I had a conversation with
the co parent and he agreed. He's like, look, they're
at an age now where they understand, isn't that They.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Know that it's like going to be places.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Yeah, and they know that their face will be there,
and there are mean people on the internet and I'm
paying them, yes, and they really like earning money. So
well that's it, you know that springy card. My kids
are the same, like they're a part of my branded
content and like I explained to them what that means
and so they understand where it will be. But my
kids are like at the age where they you know,
(06:42):
they might be scrolling YouTube. They literally beg me to
start a YouTube channel.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
I'm like, doing what, I know, what are you going
to do?
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Like film yourself playing video dancing?
Speaker 3 (06:51):
They film you remember the one?
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Oh anyway, no, I might at the moment, it's a
no to the YouTube to their own YouTube channel. But yeah,
for as much as they can get a few little
extra dollars on their Springy card and doing some branded
stuff with me.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
If they're happy to, I'm happy for them too.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
It was funny though this article though, when she said
that it did stir some thing uncomfortable in me about myself.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
I should about yourself, like what, you're exploiting your children?
Speaker 1 (07:16):
No, No, because they know that their image is there
and they're being paid, So I don't feel like they're
being exploited at all. If anything, there are any more
money than their friends right now.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
But it was.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
More about that strangers recognizing them. I don't have a
big enough following. I don't think that it would happen,
but it just it's felt icky just if I wasn't
there and they were like on their way to school
and if a stranger recognize them. In the article, she
sort of went down the sort of like safety angle,
and it was like an issue of safety and it's
(07:48):
like exposing them more to like creepy people, And that's
what made me feel icky obviously, but like kids are
potentially exposed to creepy people regardless.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yeah, see, I underst needed your ear on this, Oh yeah, because.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
You knew I was going to say what you wanted
to hear.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
You're welcome.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
So after this short break, Teags will be diving into
my with Dr Gollie navigating preferred parent syndrome.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
That's next.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Can't wait to hear it.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
So and at least it's interesting because you and I
had similar dynamics when it came to preferred parenting.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
It wasn't a real to preferred parenting.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
There wasn't a really strong instance of.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
It, whereas I do feel like in the instances I
know of girlfriends and their children. I've got one girlfriend
who's got one child, and that there definitely was and
is a really strongly preferred parent in that dynamic. And
I think what I probably couldn't relate to but observed
(08:50):
a lot in her family dynamic was how tough it
was on that non preferred parent because its rejection.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Almost hurts your feelings.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
And this person, this parent wants to be involved and
wants to.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Yeah, but the kid didn't want a bar of it.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
And then also, on the other hand, how hard it
is for that preferred parent because then they are expected
and wanted to do all the things as well.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
So and that's so taxing and then burnout and you
need a brain.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Yeah, and it will be really interesting to hear what
doctor Gollie's got to say about that, because I'm sure
there's many families that are in similar situations, whether it
is one child or more than one child. But talking
about preferred parents, we came across this parent's experience, which
pretty much sums it up.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
Take a listen, my Tolery now, who's two and a half,
is going through a huge mom only face. He wants
me to do everything. He has absolutely no interest in
my husband helping. Pretty much, if my husband comes up
to change his stapor or get him out of bed
or give him lunch, there's like a no, I want
to have me to do it sort of screaming situation.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Doctor Gollie brings practical, evidence based sleep solutions that actually work.
He's known for his straightforward approach to solving sleep challenges
from newborn's to teens. He's also a dat of three,
so has real life expertise as well as clinical Welcome
to this glorious mess, doctor Gollie.
Speaker 5 (10:15):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
So, Doctor Gollie, what exactly is preferred parent syndrome?
Speaker 2 (10:23):
And is it very common.
Speaker 5 (10:24):
Oh, it is very common, and it is exactly what
it sounds like when a toddler. I mean, it can
start with at a very young age for different reasons,
but when a toddler essentially chooses one parent over the
other for their needs of the time, So preferred parent
is not necessarily I only want mum it. Maybe I
want mum for this, I want dad for that, I
(10:48):
want Grandma for this. You know, it doesn't only have
to be parent as well, but it is most commonly
it's going to happen as early as when separation anxiety
kicks in, but it's most common in the toddler years.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
And so when you say it's earlier separation anxiety, because
it's been a million years for me, what sort of
age is that?
Speaker 5 (11:07):
Oh? Look, you know you can see parental preference happening
from as early as nine months, more common around toddler
years eighteen months, and then two, three, four, But it
happens for different reasons. So you know, the most common
time when parents will experience parental preference is more like
your two or three years of age, the typical toddler years.
(11:31):
It's driven partly by a sense of this growing autonomy,
this desire for a toddler to control their environment, to
have a say in the actions and you know, the
steps of life. But it also depends on the need
at the time. You know, there may be a time
when they've got a big feeling and they want they
prefer the more nurturing parent, and times when they want
(11:53):
to play and they want to rough and tumble, they
want them more play for parents. So it's enormously challenging
for anyone who's been on the receiving end of not
being the preferred parent. It really sucks, you know, and
most commonly I see it with mums, you know where
certainly was the case with me with one of my
three kids. I used to get home from work and
(12:14):
you know, it's awful because mum had done everything for
this child, for our daughter at the time, and you know,
had the routine and had the food and the sleep
and the play and activities and play dates, and then
I would get home and all they want to do
is play with me. And while it's very flattering, it's
really not nice on the person who is not the
(12:36):
preferred parent at the time. And it can also be
very exhausting when they want only one person to feed them,
only one person to bat them, only one person to
play with them, only one person to put them to bed.
Not to mention the fact that logistically it can be
challenging if it's simply not possible at the time.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Yeah, it's so taxing if you're just so overtouched and
you're the preferred parent and you're having to do everything.
But then it's also, I would imagine it's also really hurtful,
even though you're the grown up and you understand it's
not personal and it's developmental and it's normal, but it
would be so hurtful to think, oh my god, my
kid like doesn't want to.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Be near me.
Speaker 5 (13:12):
It's things, and you know, it doesn't matter how many
times you talk about it and you think through it
logically and rationally. I've been at times the non preferred parent,
and you know, you can say as many times as
you want, they're just a two year old. You know,
it's nothing personal, they don't hate you, et cetera, et cetera.
It stings, It really hurts. There's no question.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
It sounds like you've had first hand experience with this. Obviously,
you know clinically things, but then you've now also experienced
it in real life. How did you work that through
with your clinical knowledge and use it practically in your
real life situation and make it work.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
It's a really fantastic question. I think the most important
thing to understand is that your children will cycle through
in and out of having a parental preference phase, not
to mention cycling who the parental preference is with, so
it's always changed. And you know, there is this common
thing that I do that I tell all parents of patients.
(14:18):
When you come across something that is challenging from a
behavioral point of view, if it comes from a positive
developmental progression, you have to acknowledge that. You know, you've
got to say, as frustrating as this is or as
hurtful as this feels, I'm really glad that my toddler
has this growing autonomy because that's normal. So that's the
(14:42):
first thing I would say. And you know, I may
be the on paper, the expert when it comes to children,
but that doesn't mean that I don't go through or
I haven't been through parental preference. As you said on
the receiving end, you know it goes both ways. So
so much of this is normal toddler behavior and we
need to celebrate it and sometimes that can just elongate
your teth that make you feel a little bit better
(15:03):
about it and get you through the day to the
next one. And also trusting that it will change. It
will change, and there are things you can do, and
it's important to be aware of what you can do
as opposed to getting bogged down in the feeling that
negative feeling.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Yeah, I like that. Don't get bogged down in the feeling.
It's not personal.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
So how long would these phases and stages typically last
and what are the sort of phrases and things practically
that you can say to kids to try and encourage
involving or letting the other parent be involved.
Speaker 5 (15:35):
Yeah, great questions, no rules. In terms of duration, it
can be a day, it can be months. Some of
the things that you want to make sure are probably
the most important thing is parental alignment. You really want
to have the same behaviors between parents. Now, one parent
may be more nurturing, one parent maybe more rough and tumbled.
That's fine, but you can't have one parent allowing chocolate
(15:57):
after dinner and the other one saying no. You can't
have one parent with much more much looser screen time
allowance and the other one being tighter, because then you
create a lot of friction. And if you have parental alignment,
a child far more comfortable knowing that the boundaries are
consistent and they don't play one parent off the other.
So that's really really important. The child is less likely
(16:19):
to preference one over the other if they know that
the answer is the same no matter who they speak
to or who they ask or who they get for bedtime, etc.
The other thing is have some time. If life permits
to have both parents putting a child to bed, you
know there isn't a reason why you can't both put
a child to bed, even if you have competing interests.
(16:41):
You can make it happen. And also never fall into
the trap of belittling your co parent with your child.
So if your child says, oh, I can't stand when
daddy does this or that, you never want to say, oh, yeah,
I can't stand that either. You never want to know
join in the bashing. You want to always back up
(17:03):
your partner. Talk about the positives, talk about what you
love about your partner. You know the reason why you
love bedtime with marm or whatever the situation may be
or who drops who at school, who takes care of
the bath, you know, build them up so that the
child sees them in a positive light and therefore they're
more likely to want to spend time with them.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
We actually just talked about this on an episode a
couple of weeks ago, and we said, like, the golden
standard is like the family from the Castle. It's it's
not even about being positive. It's like bragging about.
Speaker 5 (17:38):
How good your partner is.
Speaker 4 (17:39):
Yeah, absolutely, it is.
Speaker 5 (17:41):
The other thing. The last thing I want to say
about parental preference is that because of the timing of
todder autonomy, that evolution, it tends to happen just after
the arrival of a new baby. And so the most
common thing that I see from a parental preference point
of view is the toddler preferencing the father and almost
punishing the mother because the truth is.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
They really want the mother, Yeah, totally.
Speaker 5 (18:05):
And the baby. You know, their perception is that the
baby has stolen the mother. So that's where my concept
of cross parenting comes in. And I don't know if
you're familiar with it, but you know, I've written lots
and lots about this and talk about it a lot.
The assumption is that the newborn has to be managed
by the mother and the toddler is then managed by
the father. It's almost like your single parents who happen
(18:28):
to live together ships in the night.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
It doesn't have to be that naturally does happen, doesn't that.
Speaker 5 (18:32):
It just doesn't have to be that way. And there's
a big behavior deterioration that happens in the toddler when
the newborn becomes three months of age. It's really really predictable,
and you can completely prevent it, including parental preference, just
by cross parenting, which means father does everything for the
newborn except what he can't, ie the setting of a
(18:55):
breastfed baby, but everything else can be done by the dad,
and the mum is free to a most importantly recover
and replenish, but also to be around for the toddler
if that's what they prefer.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
I definitely remember when I my second and I remember
my eldest child just acting out so terribly, and then
it wasn't until like I actually like took him out
of the house on his own and just me and
him hung out, and there was like an instant shift,
and I was like, oh God, I should have done
that before.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
He's really just wanted some time with me, the poor bugger,
exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
I've got one other question about preferred parenting. Obviously, it's
very common, very normal.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Is there any.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Sort of typical behaviors or any length of time where
you know people might go, Okay, this is probably developing
into an unhealthy attachment, This might not be healthy, this
might not be normal, and when people might need help.
Speaker 5 (19:50):
Yeah, I think it's more about the degree of discomfort
as opposed to the duration separation anxiety. For example, when
you are dropping a kid off at daycare, is very
normal for a child to object and plead for the
parent not to leave, but you see that that dissipates
over time, and you know you can de escalate them,
(20:12):
or that the daycare workers can de escalate them quite quickly.
If you're seeing an escalation in the tantrum and you know,
severe severe behaviors, that becoming abnormal and sort of moving,
it's a very gray area, but moving to the point
you know, headbanging, self harm, et cetera. That's when you
start to wonder if perhaps there's something more at play.
(20:35):
And again, you know if it's Dad is turned to
put you to bed because mum's not home, or mum's unwell,
or mum's busy feeding, whatever it may be. There may
be some objection, but eventually we will tolerate. It's not
that we hate dad, it's just that we prefer mum.
But if you find that that is leading to significant
(20:56):
meltdown behavior beyond you know what is reasonable to expect
of a toddler, that's when you start to wonder if
perhaps there is a developmental or a behavioral problem that
would then need to be seeing investigation by a pedatrician,
perhaps a play therapist, psychologist's lots of different avenues.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
There After this very short break, doctor Golly will be
back with us and tackling one of your dilemmas. You
sent in help how do I get my child out
of my bed? That's next, So, Doctor Gollie, we were
sent in a dilemma via the Muma mea family Facebook
page with someone who wanted your help, and I'm going
(21:38):
to read it out on their behalf.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Dear doctor Golly. It reminds me of Dear Dolly.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
My daughter is ten years old and refuses to sleep
in her own bed she says she's scared and likes
sleeping in my bed. I've indulged this until now because
we've gone through a marriage separation, so I wanted to
give her that extra support.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
But it's been years now, and I worry she is
getting a bit long in the tooth. Help. I am
ready for her to get out of my bed now.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
I want to caveat this before you get into it,
docor Dolly that this is only a problem if the
person wants someone out of there.
Speaker 5 (22:13):
I'm so glad you said that. I love that. Honestly,
that was going to be my very first comment. This
is not a problem. If it's not a.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Problem, correct, because co sleeping with a ten year old.
Speaker 5 (22:24):
Heaven absolutely fine.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Oh night cuddles, stunning.
Speaker 5 (22:29):
Five in the morning. This morning, no word of a lie.
My ten year old was in bed with me, and
like you said, like he's the most adorable koala to
cuddle and I didn't kick him out. I've got no
problem with that at all. So absolutely right, it's completely
fine if it's okay with you, but clearly it's not
okay for this month.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Yeah, and then as I think as well, like just
reading into that, it's like at ten years old, if
she feels like she can't sleep in her own bed, yes,
that's not just like a popping in every now and
then when there's a thunderstorm.
Speaker 5 (23:00):
Yeah, that's exactly right. So to manage this, if you
have to ask yourself, what do you want? Okay, if
you are someone who is very, very adamant that you
don't want your children sleeping in your bed on a
nightly basis, then the earlier you stop the co sleeping,
(23:20):
the better, there's no question. And also the more structured
and reliable, consistent routine that you have, the more likely
you are to succeed, because ultimately it's going to be
significantly easier to achieve this change if you've got a
good sleeper. So if there are major sleep issues, if
(23:41):
we are trying to put to bed an overtired child
or even teenager, and we're trying to put them to
bed in their own room where they don't want to be,
it's almost like a recipe for disaster, and it's just
not going to work, and it's going to become this
worsening problem because you're then dealing with overtired on top
(24:02):
of the emotional changes and challenges that you're dealing with.
I think, like we touched on before, positive reinforcement is
really really important talking about how well someone's done. So
if someone is able to achieve a period of time
in their own bed and then they enter yours, I
would focus on the fact that they achieved time in
(24:22):
their own bed as opposed to the fact that they
entered yours at some point in the night. Then you
have almost like sleep training approaches, and you've got everything
from cold turkey, which is just putting in their own
room and we're going to rip off the band aid
and deal with it short term paining to achieve the
long term desired effect. And then you've got the more
(24:44):
gentle approach. And again it's all about you. What your
choice is, your temperament. It's also the temperament of your child.
If there's a pressing issue that's coming that necessitates the change.
I think the key if you are returning a child
to bed who has entered your room in the night,
is about a calm return. Now there are two parts
(25:05):
to this. You don't want to engage in a fight
at two in the morning. You don't want to get
cortisol going, the adrenaline going trying to rationalize and you know,
talk through logic, and you can't teach it too in
the morning. It's just not going to work. You're not
going to do a good job. Your child's not going
to be open to it. The second part is you
(25:26):
don't want to reward them in any way, and you
know that saying I'm going to butcher this, but or
any any attention is good attention. Any media is good media,
even if it's.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Bad, and any press is good press.
Speaker 5 (25:40):
Yes, yes, So sometimes for a child, especially younger children
and toddlers, any response from a parent is good, even
if it is an angry parent or a frustrated parent.
So you want to almost be and this is what
I teach my patient's parents. You want to almost be
this calm, borderline, perfunctory, robotic version of you where you
(26:05):
just take their hand and very calmly walk them back
to their bed and give them no positive reinforcement for
coming to get you. So you might get up ten
times on night one, but only three times on night
two and once on night three, and then it's done.
And the reason is because they always end up in
their own bed, so they lose the desire. There's no
(26:27):
reward for coming to your bed. But also they don't
get the fun. They don't get to interact with you,
they don't get to have a conversation, they don't get
to troubleshit whatever it is that they're attempting to try
to get your attention, they're not getting it. Now. Having
said that, in the morning, when you do wake up,
you need to strip off that robotic mum or robotic
(26:50):
dad persona and be showering them with love and attention
and as we said, positive reinforcement if they have managed
to stay in bed, and again you focus on the
time spent in bed, not the number of times they
came to your bed and you had to return them.
So positive, positive, positive, And it's almost like showing them
(27:11):
during the nighttime don't bother. You're getting a rubbish version
of me. I'm here, you're safe. Yeah, but it's not
time to play. But during the daytime and in the
morning it's the best version.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
And is this the same just say from like a
ten year old to I don't know when are they
in their own beds?
Speaker 4 (27:33):
Too?
Speaker 5 (27:35):
Like?
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Is this would you use like a very similar approach
in terms of.
Speaker 5 (27:38):
Yeah, yeah, there are subtle differences you know, in a
two year old, i'd be engaging with some sort of
clock obviously not with numbers. You know, with shapes and
colors there are different.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
And the stars.
Speaker 5 (27:54):
Yeah, just to you know, a todd that wakes up
at three in the morning, they have no idea if
it's six point thirty or if it's three or eleven PM.
So you want to give them a concept of time
which they can understand with the stars or the sheep
or whatever that product is. Also, of course, you're you're
you know, we talked about the importance of routine. There's
also the importance of the room environments. We want to
(28:15):
make sure, you know, a two year old might be
having nightmare. So you go from having a blacked out room,
which was necessary early on, to having a night light
or a soft you know, pink hue to the room
or a corridor light something like that. You know, white
noise might still be important. Some people turn it off,
you know, when they transition a toddler to a big bed.
(28:35):
There's no need to turn off white noise. So there's
lots of different you know, the low hanging fruit is
what I call them. To maintain a good sleep environment,
hopefully those things have been started earlier on. Then there
are other things you can use. You know. One of
my favorite more gentle parenting techniques is a process that
some people refer to as camping out, where instead of
(28:57):
them coming to your room, you actually move into their room.
And you know, it's a slow process. It takes about
two weeks, but you ever so slowly move your single
mattress away from their bed, eventually to the door, or
eventually outside the door, eventually into the corridor. It's just
edging away ten centimeters a night so that there is
this acceptable separation between your child and you. It's challenging
(29:23):
for the parent, but most of my families who do
it will respond, you know, we'll talk about how successful
it was and then say, why didn't I do this sooner? Yeah,
but it is never too late.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
It's tricky, isn't it, Because yeah, like, I love, you know,
having a cuddle with a kid in the bed, and
I'm single, so it's not really an issue for me
to have you one of my kids jump in my bed.
But if you are married, it it's a bit of
a buzzkill having a child in your bed every night.
So it's probably something that people do want to sort
(29:57):
of move away from But in terms of so you're saying,
in terms of the original dilemma for the daughter who's ten,
it's not a developmental issue that she can't sleep in
her own bed.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
It's just it's okay, it's what she needs right now.
Speaker 5 (30:09):
I mean, I don't know enough about this particular ten
year old, but if there are no other concerns, you know,
during the day, evening, etc. It's probably habitual. And you know,
you can change a child's habit far quicker than you
can change an adult. But it's the keys that it's
(30:30):
absolutely possible. And again coming back to what you said
at the very beginning, if that's what you.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Want, yeah, totally. And if you want to go sleep,
then go sleep.
Speaker 5 (30:40):
It's glory absolutely.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
And if you are having trouble with your baby or
child sleep, or a toddler is driving about the wall,
Doctor Gollie's Sleep and Toddler Toolkit parenting programs are a
game changer. They're available at Doctorgollie dot com and all
of the info will be.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
In the show notes.
Speaker 5 (30:58):
Thanks for having me, so TIGS.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
One of the things I got from that first chat
with doctor Gollie about preferred parenting was just to really
remove the feeling out of it, like if you are
not the preferred parent, like it's actually it's not about you.
Doesn't mean your child doesn't like you. It's a normal
developmental milestone. It's almost like your time will come, Like
you know, at the moment they want to they what
they need is from mum, and you know in five
(31:28):
months time it might be what they need from dad. Yeah,
So to take the feeling out of it, and also
how important it is to be a united front in
front of the kids, which we've talked about on a
couple of episodes ago. And it was just like that
modeling that you know, to really brag about the other parents,
so that that is modeled and the child will start
to hopefully.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
Also feeling also like them too.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
So that was lovely and I loved also that he
had experienced this. I mean, obviously I creepily enjoyed hearing
that perspective. Yeah, he'd been both the preferred parent and
the non preferred parent. And I love that idea of
when there is another baby that and this is obviously
heteronomitic relationships, but that mum doesn't become in charge of
(32:13):
newborn and dad doesn't become in charge of toddler.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
That is so interesting, is it?
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Because it is it's just naturally what we do, like, oh,
you know, mum, baby needs mum, so that's that's her priority.
And but that's only if they're breastfeeding, and only during breastfeeding.
Like another parent can do everything in and around that. Yeah,
it's so interesting from all perspectives, from the other parent,
from the other child's perspective, from newborn baby, getting a
(32:41):
little bit of the other parent as well, and then
with the sleep and getting a kid out of your bed.
I love that he was so aligned and not judging,
and he was like, it's only a problem.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
If it's a problem, it's a problem for you.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
And if you want them in your bed, then they
can stay in your bed. And there's no issue with
a ten year old being in your bed. And I
thought that was beautiful advice. But I loved the I
think he called it like robotic and being that neutral
presence in the night so they're not getting any feedback. Yeah,
almost like sleep training like you would a baby.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
And that's like you know, if you did sleep train,
you'd remember it's like no emotion, don't look them in
the eye. It's so funny, isn't it. We're a bit
past that now, but god, it's the same thing. But
you know, you new age new struggles, right.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
Well, thank you for listening to this ghoss mess.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
We do hope you enjoyed the show, and if you
did love it, please feel free to leave us a
rating or review, and please keep sharing with us on
the Mumma Mere Family Facebook page. Send us your dilemmas,
send us all of your things. We love hearing from you,
and we also love getting experts to answer your dilemmas
because we also need help and learn, and we also
don't have all the answers, certainly not experts. You can
(33:52):
find us on the Mamma Mea Family Instagram or Facebook page.
This episode was produced by Tina Matlov with audio production
by Jacob Brown.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
We'll see you next time, Sea,
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