November 23, 2025 • 29 mins
This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. concludes his conversation with Denise Nicholas, veteran actress, writer, activist and author of Finding Home: A Memoir, discussing her new memoir, her personal and professional experiences during her six-decade film and television career, and her participation in the Civil Rights Movement. In […]
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(00:15):
From the University ofTexas at Austin, KUT Radio.
This is in Black America.
I really think it depends on how.
How you, how you seeyourself in the world.
I mean, most many women atthat time, not so much now.
Mm-hmm.
But at that time, people were lookingfor, uh, a different kind of life.
(00:36):
I was looking or thinking, I don't knowif I was consciously doing it, but I was
thinking of the world, not just of the,my little place in one place at a time.
I was looking to develop not onlymore intelligence, but more compa,
more compassion for the rest of theworld and other people besides myself.
And so meeting people who were in thecivil rights movement, which provoked my
(01:00):
going south, talking to them and listeningto them and the passion and, and.
The, the sense of dutyto help other people.
All of those things became apart of the mix in my head.
Denise Nicholas, actor, activist,writer, and author of Finding Home,
a memoir published by Bolden Books.
(01:20):
Nicholas is the best known forportrayals of high school guiding
counselor Liz McIntyre on room 2 22on A BC TV from 1969 to 1974, and
Harriet DeLong on the TV version of Inthe Heat of the Night on NBC and CVS.
In a memoir of Finding home, sheexplored her six decade journey
(01:43):
through TV and film stardom.
Our experiences in Hollywood haveshaped her the real stories behind her
marriage to build with us her other twomarriages and subsequent romantic life,
and how she reinvented her creativelife to become a celebrated novel.
Nicholas began the career as afounding member of the Free Southern
Theater, joined Mississippi andLouisiana during the most violent
(02:06):
days of the Civil Rights Movement.
I am Johnny O. Hanson Jr. And welcometo another edition of In Black America
on this week's program, finding Homewith Denise Nicholas in Black America.
I had a friend who was in her workshop,and this is all after, in the Heat of
the night, was, uh, was, uh, stopped.
(02:27):
So I had started writing on Inthe Heat of the Night 'cause Carol
O'Connor gave me a shot to write.
So I did six episodes and then I thoughtby the, at the end of that I said, okay,
now I'm in the lane that I wanna be in.
I'm writing and I'm getting paid to write.
So then my friend told friend toldme about Janet Fit's workshop.
So I went and, and audition by sendingher something that I was working on
(02:49):
and she accepted me in the workshop.
So Freshwater Road comesout of that workshop every.
Single word.
So it was, um, about a three and a halfyear writing period to get that book
done, to get it written, and with a lotof good help from people in the workshop,
because they were, it was critical.
You had to present your work and youhad to accept the criticism, discuss
(03:13):
it, and then go back and do rewrites
growing up, middle class in 1950, Detroit.
Nicholas experienced a vibrant cultureand harsh reality of a segregated
city, which profoundly influencedher perspective on identity.
Nicholas entered the University ofMichigan as a pre-law student, but dropped
outta the university to tour the DeepSouth with the free Southern Theater
(03:37):
at the height of civil rights movement.
A few years later, she would gainnational fame on the groundbreaking A
BC TV comedy drama series, room 2 22.
In her book, finding Home Nickleyexplores the ways of experiences Hollywood
shaped her understanding of success.
Intimacy and commitment.
She candidly discusses the challengesshe face as a trailblazing actress
(04:00):
of color, shedding light on thesystematic barriers and biases
within the entertainment industry.
Nicholas presented emotionally charged andrichly complex picture of the realities
of personal and professional success asan African American woman in America.
Over the past 50 years, you beginyour book by talking about your mom.
(04:21):
Why start there?
I think because like with, with mostwomen, the mother character has the
most profound influence on your lifebecause moms are the ones who, who
prepare you for growing up more, muchmore so, and, and I guess dads or uncles.
(04:44):
Have some of the same function with men.
Yeah.
Now, when you began, thisis like your second book.
Yes.
Talk to us about that first bookthat you actually had published.
Freshwater Road.
Well, that book is, I thinkFreshwater Road is my favorite.
Piece of writing that I've done so far.
(05:04):
I love this memoir, but Freshwater Roadcame out of a love I had for the Civil
rights movement and the things thathappened in the South during those years.
And I was there for a part of thattime with the free Southern Theater.
So I tour toured around Mississippiand Louisiana and really that was
my first time in the deep South.
(05:26):
So I learned a lot and I saton it for years and years as
it percolated inside of me.
And I read and studied about the historyof the South and different things.
So when I got around toriding Freshwater Road, I was.
So deeply passionate about it,uh, is almost like I couldn't
(05:47):
breathe until I got it done.
And because I carried it from the timeI was in Mississippi in the sixties
until I started writing Freshwater Road.
I carried everything from that period inmy head, in my memory, and in my heart
because I knew, I, I knew that someday Iwould write something about that period.
(06:07):
So I think it's, uh, I love finding home.
It's a more difficult, in, in asense for me, a more difficult task
to write directly about myself.
And so, you know, I was, uh, I was, itwas a, a much more difficult write for me.
My publisher, Doug Zebo, a agatehad to continually push me forward
(06:29):
'cause I was ready to throwin the towel about 50 times.
And then, you know, with FreshwaterRoad, nobody had to do anything.
'cause I was so in lovewith the project itself.
I say you born in Detroit, but youall eventually moved to to Marlin,
Michigan, which is outside Detroit.
Talk to us about living in Detroitprior to you all moving to Marlin.
(06:54):
Well, I was pretty young, you know,um, 'cause I, when we moved out there,
I was put ahead a, a full grade andI ended up in the ninth grade when I
should have been in the eighth grade.
So back in Detroit at that time,you know, the city was changing
and it was evident that the citywas changing, not for the better.
(07:14):
And schools were going down because ofwhite flight and budgets and so forth.
And so.
Uh, my mother and my stepfather thoughtat best that I go to a different high
school, go to high school where hewas, you know, out in the town where
they were, were living because heworked out at the federal prison there.
(07:35):
So that was, for me, it was difficultbecause I didn't wanna leave the city.
I, I see myself as a city girl,and the little town that we
were moving to was very small.
And it was, uh, we were the onlyblack family in the town at that time.
So that was also difficult because asyou know, and I know and everybody knows
(07:56):
Detroit has an abundance of black people.
So, uh, that's what I was accustomed to.
So I went.
You know, I kind of fought a littlebit with my mom 'cause I wanted to
stay in Detroit with other relatives.
I didn't wanna leave the city, buteventually I went on out to Milan
and finished high school out there.
(08:17):
Uh, but it was difficultfor me because of culture.
Culture, uh, differences.
Uh, absolutely.
Now there was a learningexperience once you were.
Admitted and attended theUniversity of Michigan.
Talk to us about that experience priorto you going to the Free Southern Theater
Theater.
Well, I, I went to, I was a freshman atUniversity of Michigan when I was 17,
(08:41):
and which is kind of, you know, I was alittle bit young, but, and, and I think
that when looking back on it, my youthtranslates to immaturity of course.
So my, my grades were good.
My scholarship was good, but.
I was still a kid and University ofMichigan, uh, as I'm sure you know, is
(09:06):
a very sophisticated, very large campuswith, uh, it was very swift moving.
It felt more like a little New York.
So, you know, so it was, what Isay in the book is Ann Arbor picked
me up on my bootstraps and turnedme every which way but loose.
So it was great and it was challenging.
(09:27):
And I refer to it constantly in mylife because in a sense I loved it
there, but once I went south, I wasn'tgoing back to school at that time.
I eventually did go back toschool here and graduated from
University of Southern California.
So, but Ann Arbor is still, is likein my heart and in my mind that is,
it's a, it's beautiful memories.
(09:48):
It's some kind of, uh, I kind ofidyllic, you know, so, but I loved
it and I absolutely loved it.
Now you talk about your first roommatewhen you were at the University of
Michigan, and that didn't last too long.
But also during that period, Iguess you found your blackness.
I'm not sure what that means.
(10:09):
What does that mean?
Well, you became more culturally and civicaware of what was going on around, around
you and what was happening in the world.
Well, yes, because the civilrights movement came to campus.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
You know, and remember around that timetoo, and just a little bit later, the
Vietnam War right, was, um, heating up.
(10:30):
So there were plenty of thingsgoing on on campus in regard to
both those occurrences or issues,civil rights and the Vietnam War.
There was a lot of activitythere, and I got to, um.
One of my roommates, Martha Prescott, whostill, who's now moved back to Michigan,
was the person who really introducedme to the Civil Rights movement.
(10:53):
She was very active and very, very smart,and I think because of influence, her
influence and other things going on Atthe time when I met Gil Moses and he was.
Setting up this theater to be apart of the Civil Rights movement.
I thought that was my entreeinto the Civil Rights Movement.
Now, once you attended the Universityof Michigan, but also you went off
(11:18):
to New York, why was that a learningexperience, uh, for you to help
shape the lady that you are today?
Well, I, I think, I reallythink it depends on how.
How you, how you seeyourself in the world.
I mean, most many women atthat time, not so much now.
Mm-hmm.
But at that time, people were lookingfor, uh, a different kind of life.
(11:41):
I was looking.
Or thinking, I don't know if I wasconsciously doing it, but I was thinking
of the world, not just of the mylittle place, in one place at a time.
I was looking to develop not onlymore intelligence, but more compa,
more compassion for the rest of theworld and other people besides myself.
(12:02):
And so.
Meeting people who were in the civilrights movement, which provoked my
going south, talking to them, listeningto them, and the passion and the, the,
the sense of duty to help other people.
All of those things became a partof the mix in my head that led me to
the south, but also fed me as a womanwho wanted to, to have a place in
(12:26):
the world that wasn't just, you know.
I don't wanna say just because it'svery important, housewife and mother.
I never really wanted to have children.
I wanted to work and that's basicallythe way my life is, has played out.
So I'm a worker bee, I always was, andI guess I will be, uh, until the end.
It's my, it's my comfort zone.
(12:49):
Absolutely.
So
is it true that prior to you becomingan actress and, and author and writer,
you wanted to become an attorney?
Uh, I flirted with that for a while.
Yeah.
Uh, I had to, oh, okay.
So I, I thought aboutbecoming a, an attorney.
Mm-hmm.
I used to also think aboutbeing in the foreign service.
(13:12):
Okay.
Being, you know, probablyworking for the CIA or something
and that would've been a hoot.
And then, um, yeah, those arethe two things, and, and they
were both things that would takeme up and out into the world.
Absolutely.
You and your, your writing, youtalk fondly about your grandparents.
(13:32):
Talk to us about your grandparents.
Oh, okay.
My grandparents on my dad's side.
Right.
Yeah.
We lived with them when we were very,my brother and I were very little.
They were really sturdy.
Strong people.
They came up to Detroit fromKentucky in about, uh, 1919.
(13:54):
'cause my dad was born in Detroit in 1920.
Uh, and he had an older sister, myAunt Flora, who was born, I guess, I
guess they both were born in Detroit.
So that part of my family,my dad's part of the family.
Were, I, I, it's hard, you know, they wereworking class black people who had middle
(14:20):
class aspirations and accomplishments.
For example, the house that they livedin in Detroit, which is a house my
brother and I were in repeatedly aslittle people, was not a big rich house.
It was a kind of a workingclass people house and a working
class people neighborhood.
(14:41):
But very nice.
Everything structured,everything cared for everything.
You know, the backyard was like a park.
The front yard was small, butit was constantly taken care of.
And I think I learned from my grandmother,mostly from my grandmother, the this
quality of taking care of property becauseshe, I mean, this woman worked every
(15:02):
day and took care of her home and yard.
She did everything.
So she was one of theprimary role models for me.
As I grew up.
I knew immediately that as soonas I got, you know, to be an adult
woman, that I was gonna own property.
There was no question about it.
If I had to, you know, take a job,take 40 jobs, I was gonna own property.
(15:26):
That, that's because theytaught me the value of that.
She also taught me how to.
How to, I don't know how to create a homethat has beautiful things and you know,
gorgeous things, and it's just a matter,of course, it's not anything special.
That's the way you're supposedto live, surrounded by as much
(15:48):
beauty as you can put around youwith plants and trees and flowers.
I mean, it's a very, I guess in a way itcould be kind of country because these
people did come from the country theycame from in the wilds of Kentucky, but.
For a city, for a city girl.
For me, it was like going to a kind ofhow to take care of a home charm school.
(16:09):
I mean, it was reallybecause she knew all of that.
I mean, she taught me about Crystal.
I write about this inthe book in China, and.
Silver and flowers and abeautiful yard and all this.
And if you came to this house thatI live in right now, it's a direct
reflection of the things she taught me.
Everything.
Yeah, understand.
If you're just joining us, I'm Johnny O.
(16:30):
Hanson Jr. And you're listening to InBlack America from KUT Radio, and we speak
with Denise Nichols, actress, activist,writer, author of Finding Home a memoir.
Denise talks about joiningthe Negro Ensemble Company in
1966, or was it prior to that?
It was 66.
Yeah.
Okay.
Uh, 67, the Negro Ensemble Company,which was founded by Robert Hooks,
(16:54):
Douglas Turner Ward in, um, Iforgot the financial guy's name.
Anyway, when I got up to New Yorkfrom the Free Southern Theater.
Uh, had finished my work thereand I was, uh, hired to do a play
with, uh, Vivica Lindfors and herhusband, George Tabori in New York.
So I went to New York, that's whattook me to New York, and I rehearsed
(17:15):
with them, went on the road withthem, uh, came back into New York.
City and, uh, started looking for,you know, like all actors do, started
looking for work, doing auditions,going from one theater to the next.
You know, you had to, you haveto be really young to do that.
So I did that and I didsome work right after that.
(17:36):
Uh, biblical in force piece.
And then I met Robert Hooks and DouglasTurner Ward and Gerald Cron was the
financial guy, just popped into my head.
So.
They saw me in the playsthat I did in New York.
So when the Negro Ensemble companywas forming, uh, I was, I went to
see about doing an audition and Iwas, had been unemployed for a bit,
(17:57):
so I got a job in the office firstdoing office work for the theater.
And then my audition was Douglas TurnerWard and Robert Hooks said that the work
that I had done with the Free SouthernTheater, some of which had been televised
in New York, and with the Open Theater andJudson Poets Theater and the thing with
(18:19):
the biblical infos, they accepted me intothe com company on the basis of work done.
So that was the beginning ofreally my professional career.
So I was there for the trainingprogram and there for the first
season, which was incredible.
And we opened with a play, theSong of the Luan Bogey by Peter
(18:40):
Weiss, which was a song, a playabout the Portuguese in Africa.
So.
It was right up my alley.
I was, I was in negro heaven.
And so then, uh, I did that firstseason and, and that's when a, BCE
had sent, um, agents to the theaterto see the, the new, the big hot
(19:00):
theater, the Negro Summer company.
And they reached out to me to comein for a reading for a new series.
I didn't know anything aboutit, so I went in, I got the
reading, and I did the reading.
I came back to work at the theater.
And then soon after that they saidthey wanted me to do a callback.
I went and did a callback in New York,and then they said, we wanna fly you
(19:21):
to California to do a screen test.
So I, they, I hadn't even been inCalifornia, so I went to California
and they, you know, they take very goodcare of you, at least they used to.
And I did a screen test for room2 22, came back to New York as I
waited for, for the answer on thescreen test, they flew me back to
Los Angeles for a personality test.
(19:44):
Which is where they just standyou in front of a camera and turn
the camera on and ask you a coupleof questions, and you just talk
your head off like I'm doing now.
That worked.
So soon after that, they told me I hadthe role on room 2 22 and I, it was
time for me to move to Los Angeles.
So that's, that's how that played out.
Being one of the few people ofcolor on television at that time.
(20:06):
Talk to us about that experience.
Well, you know, I. Because I had beenin the civil rights movement and because
I still paid attention to all of the,the stuff going on in Mississippi and
in Alabama and, and deep south places.
And I stayed tuned in, tuned intothe movement even after I went on,
(20:27):
uh, to be a professional actor.
So I think.
I think what I wanted to do, what I wantedto do was room 2 22 while it's filming,
and as soon as the the filming season isover, I wanted to go back to New York and
be a member of the Negro Ensemble Company.
(20:48):
That was my dream situation.
Uh, so after the first season, I wentback to New York, uh, and, you know, met
with the, the people who run the theater,Douglas Turner Award and Robert Hooks, and
they said, no, they needed a full company.
They couldn't have people comingin and going out, blah, blah, blah.
So I said, okay.
(21:08):
So I just, you know, came back to LA anddecided to focus on film and television,
uh, to see what I could make happen.
And that's the be, that's thefirst, that's the first chunk.
Of my career in Los Angeles, in Hollywood.
That right there, what I just described.
What first convinced you that actingis what you really wanted to do?
(21:34):
What, what changed?
What, what?
What changed your focus?
I, you know, I don't, I don't knowthat I ever felt that way about acting.
I enjoyed it.
Um, I certainly enjoyed makingmoney and you get a lot, you know,
if you're on a series like that,you get a whole lot of attention.
(21:54):
You know, pr tons of press attention andjust, you get a lot of attention, period.
Just people walking down the street,they see you, oh, aren't you on tv?
And that happens a lot.
So that.
That was, you know, that's a partof the deal when you do that.
But inside I always wanted somethingelse and it had to do with writing.
(22:16):
I was a good English student atUniversity of Michigan in high school,
and when I got to Ann Arbor, I exemptedout of the first year of English
that they require freshmen to take.
And even though I wasn't thinking.
No, I was thinking about being a writer.
I did not know how to be a writer.
I didn't even know howto get that door open.
(22:38):
It was like this great fantasy I carriedaround in my head that I was gonna, I
was gonna write a great book or I wasgonna, I was gonna be a writer because
I read so much and I so loved fiction.
Um, and I took all the Englishclasses, I took classes that I
wanted to take, and I discovered.
Different poets and different,uh, literary figures from England
(22:59):
and France and everywhere.
And I thought, oh my God.
And I was, as I said earlier, I was areader and I just loved books and I loved
words, and I loved that whole, you know,of course what I had in my head was an
idealized version of it, you know, notknowing how hard the work was until
later, but that's what I really alwayswanted to do, is what I'm doing now.
(23:23):
Right.
I think that one of the first thingsyou had published was in Essence
Yes.
Uhhuh.
Yeah.
And what was that?
That was, uh, a little short piece.
My sister Michelle, who's the one whowas murdered in New York and two other
close, close, close family, friends, olderwomen from Detroit came to California
(23:46):
to visit me, and we took a trip.
I bought a new Mercedes and thefour lady, the three of them got
in my car and oh, we went up to SanFrancisco on the coast route, which
is a beautiful, beautiful trip.
And I wanted to show people them, 'causethey were people that I loved dearly.
I wanted to show them the beautyof California, and particularly the
(24:06):
beauty of the coast, ride by theocean all the way up to San Francisco.
So that's what we did.
And we had an adventure.
Some of the, I mean, most everythingwas beautiful, but we had some.
Stressful things as well.
So when I got back and everybodywent off, went home, I started
writing a piece about the trip and.
(24:28):
So I kind of, I didn't, this was myfirst attempt at writing anything.
And I had a friend at Essence and Isent the piece to my, my friends there,
and they said, we can publish it.
And I was like, you are kidding.
You know?
I didn't even believe it.
And so they did.
And it's a little, I, I read it now 'causeI, I still have a copy of it and it's a
little rough around the edges, but I dida rewrite on it and it's published again.
(24:52):
And the volume, a gathering ofvoices, which comes out of the
writing workshop that I ran herein my house for a few years.
So we produced a volume of short piecesby all the members of the workshop
and my p, one of my pieces is thatpiece about the trip up the coast.
What was some of the things that youlearned and gathered from that workshop?
(25:13):
Well, I, I had taken a classwith, uh, a workshop with a, a
writer whose name is Janet Fitch.
She wrote a book called White Olender,which was a huge, huge, huge hit.
And I, I had a, a friend whowas in her workshop, and this
(25:34):
is all after, in the heat of thenight, was, uh, was, uh, stopped.
So I had started writing on inthe Heat of the Night 'cause Carol
O'Connor gave me a shot to write.
So I did six episodes and then I thoughtby the, at the end of that I said, okay,
now I'm in the lane that I wanna be in.
I'm writing and I'm getting paid to write.
So then my friend told friend toldme about Janet Fitch's workshop.
(25:56):
So I went and, and auditioned by sendingher something that I was working on
and she accepted me in the workshop.
So Freshwater Road comes out ofthat workshop, every single word.
So it was, um, about a three and ahalf year writing, uh, period to get
that book done, to get it written, andwith a lot of good help from people
(26:20):
in the workshop because they were.
The, it was critical.
You had to present your work and youhad to accept the criticism, discuss
it, and then go back and do rewrites.
So when I started the workshophere, it was based on what I had
experienced in that workshop.
So I gathered five other people whowere interested in writing all, all
of people, people I knew before andmany, um, they were all working on one.
(26:45):
One project or another,uh, as writer is fledgling,
fledgling, or beginning writers.
So at the workshop I try to emulate whatJanet Fitch had done in that workshop,
which was so incredibly successful.
So I brought her teachings tothis group of people, and it has,
(27:08):
it has basic, very basic things.
One of the things that she used toteach, uh, and hammer into our bony
heads was writing the the senses.
You are a human being and you have fivesenses, and all those senses have to
be at play when you write a characterbecause they are human beings, and
(27:28):
that helps the reader feel and get toknow the character that you're writing.
Denise Nicholas, actress,activist, writer, and author
of Finding Home a memoir.
If you have questions, comments, orsuggestions as to future in black America,
ros, email us at In Black america@kut.org.
(27:49):
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(28:12):
The views and opinions expressedon this program are not necessary
those of this station or of theUniversity of Texas at Austin.
Until we have the opportunity again fora technical producer, David Alvarez.
I'm Johnelle Hansen, Jr. Thankyou for joining us today.
Please join us again next week.
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(28:35):
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CDs, KUT Radio 300 West Dean KeatonBoulevard, Austin, Texas 7 8 7 1 2.
That's in Black America.
CDs, KUT Radio 300 WestDean Keaton Boulevard.
Austin, Texas 7 8 7 1 2.
(28:57):
This has been a production of KUT radio.
From the University ofTexas at Austin, KUT Radio.
(29:20):
This is in Black America.
I really think it depends on how.
How you, how you seeyourself in the world.
I mean, most many women atthat time, not so much now.
Mm-hmm.
But at that time, people were lookingfor, uh, a different kind of life.
I was looking or thinking, I don't knowif I was consciously doing it, but I was
(29:41):
thinking of the world, not just of the,my little place in one place at a time.
I was looking to develop not onlymore intelligence, but more compa,
more compassion for the rest of theworld and other people besides myself.
And so meeting people who were in thecivil rights movement, which provoked my
going south, talking to them and listeningto them and the passion and, and.
(30:04):
The, the sense of dutyto help other people.
All of those things became apart of the mix in my head.
Denise Nicholas, actor, activist,writer, and author of Finding Home,
a memoir published by Bolden Books.
Nicholas is the best known forportrayals of high school guiding
counselor Liz McIntyre on room 2 22on A BC TV from 1969 to 1974, and
(30:32):
Harriet DeLong on the TV version of Inthe Heat of the Night on NBC and CVS.
In a memoir of Finding home, sheexplored her six decade journey
through TV and film stardom.
Our experiences in Hollywood haveshaped her the real stories behind her
marriage to build with us her other twomarriages and subsequent romantic life,
(30:54):
and how she reinvented her creativelife to become a celebrated novel.
Nicholas began the career as afounding member of the Free Southern
Theater, joined Mississippi andLouisiana during the most violent
days of the Civil Rights Movement.
I am Johnny O. Hanson Jr. And welcometo another edition of In Black America
(31:15):
on this week's program, finding Homewith Denise Nicholas in Black America.
I had a friend who was in her workshop,and this is all after, in the Heat of
the night, was, uh, was, uh, stopped.
So I had started writing on Inthe Heat of the Night 'cause Carol
O'Connor gave me a shot to write.
So I did six episodes and then I thoughtby the, at the end of that I said, okay,
(31:36):
now I'm in the lane that I wanna be in.
I'm writing and I'm getting paid to write.
So then my friend told friend toldme about Janet Fit's workshop.
So I went and, and audition by sendingher something that I was working on
and she accepted me in the workshop.
So Freshwater Road comesout of that workshop every.
Single word.
(31:56):
So it was, um, about a three and a halfyear writing period to get that book
done, to get it written, and with a lotof good help from people in the workshop,
because they were, it was critical.
You had to present your work and youhad to accept the criticism, discuss
it, and then go back and do rewrites
growing up, middle class in 1950, Detroit.
(32:19):
Nicholas experienced a vibrant cultureand harsh reality of a segregated
city, which profoundly influencedher perspective on identity.
Nicholas entered the University ofMichigan as a pre-law student, but dropped
outta the university to tour the DeepSouth with the free Southern Theater
at the height of civil rights movement.
A few years later, she would gainnational fame on the groundbreaking A
(32:43):
BC TV comedy drama series, room 2 22.
In her book, finding Home Nickleyexplores the ways of experiences Hollywood
shaped her understanding of success.
Intimacy and commitment.
She candidly discusses the challengesshe face as a trailblazing actress
of color, shedding light on thesystematic barriers and biases
(33:04):
within the entertainment industry.
Nicholas presented emotionally charged andrichly complex picture of the realities
of personal and professional success asan African American woman in America.
Over the past 50 years, you beginyour book by talking about your mom.
Why start there?
I think because like with, with mostwomen, the mother character has the
(33:30):
most profound influence on your lifebecause moms are the ones who, who
prepare you for growing up more, muchmore so, and, and I guess dads or uncles.
Have some of the same function with men.
Yeah.
Now, when you began, thisis like your second book.
(33:51):
Yes.
Talk to us about that first bookthat you actually had published.
Freshwater Road.
Well, that book is, I thinkFreshwater Road is my favorite.
Piece of writing that I've done so far.
I love this memoir, but Freshwater Roadcame out of a love I had for the Civil
rights movement and the things thathappened in the South during those years.
(34:15):
And I was there for a part of thattime with the free Southern Theater.
So I tour toured around Mississippiand Louisiana and really that was
my first time in the deep South.
So I learned a lot and I saton it for years and years as
it percolated inside of me.
And I read and studied about the historyof the South and different things.
(34:37):
So when I got around toriding Freshwater Road, I was.
So deeply passionate about it,uh, is almost like I couldn't
breathe until I got it done.
And because I carried it from the timeI was in Mississippi in the sixties
until I started writing Freshwater Road.
I carried everything from that period inmy head, in my memory, and in my heart
(35:01):
because I knew, I, I knew that someday Iwould write something about that period.
So I think it's, uh, I love finding home.
It's a more difficult, in, in asense for me, a more difficult task
to write directly about myself.
And so, you know, I was, uh, I was, itwas a, a much more difficult write for me.
(35:24):
My publisher, Doug Zebo, a agatehad to continually push me forward
'cause I was ready to throwin the towel about 50 times.
And then, you know, with FreshwaterRoad, nobody had to do anything.
'cause I was so in lovewith the project itself.
I say you born in Detroit, but youall eventually moved to to Marlin,
(35:45):
Michigan, which is outside Detroit.
Talk to us about living in Detroitprior to you all moving to Marlin.
Well, I was pretty young, you know,um, 'cause I, when we moved out there,
I was put ahead a, a full grade andI ended up in the ninth grade when I
should have been in the eighth grade.
(36:06):
So back in Detroit at that time,you know, the city was changing
and it was evident that the citywas changing, not for the better.
And schools were going down because ofwhite flight and budgets and so forth.
And so.
Uh, my mother and my stepfather thoughtat best that I go to a different high
(36:28):
school, go to high school where hewas, you know, out in the town where
they were, were living because heworked out at the federal prison there.
So that was, for me, it was difficultbecause I didn't wanna leave the city.
I, I see myself as a city girl,and the little town that we
were moving to was very small.
And it was, uh, we were the onlyblack family in the town at that time.
(36:52):
So that was also difficult because asyou know, and I know and everybody knows
Detroit has an abundance of black people.
So, uh, that's what I was accustomed to.
So I went.
You know, I kind of fought a littlebit with my mom 'cause I wanted to
stay in Detroit with other relatives.
I didn't wanna leave the city, buteventually I went on out to Milan
(37:14):
and finished high school out there.
Uh, but it was difficultfor me because of culture.
Culture, uh, differences.
Uh, absolutely.
Now there was a learningexperience once you were.
Admitted and attended theUniversity of Michigan.
Talk to us about that experience priorto you going to the Free Southern Theater
Theater.
(37:35):
Well, I, I went to, I was a freshman atUniversity of Michigan when I was 17,
and which is kind of, you know, I was alittle bit young, but, and, and I think
that when looking back on it, my youthtranslates to immaturity of course.
So my, my grades were good.
(37:55):
My scholarship was good, but.
I was still a kid and University ofMichigan, uh, as I'm sure you know, is
a very sophisticated, very large campuswith, uh, it was very swift moving.
It felt more like a little New York.
So, you know, so it was, what Isay in the book is Ann Arbor picked
(38:18):
me up on my bootstraps and turnedme every which way but loose.
So it was great and it was challenging.
And I refer to it constantly in mylife because in a sense I loved it
there, but once I went south, I wasn'tgoing back to school at that time.
I eventually did go back toschool here and graduated from
(38:38):
University of Southern California.
So, but Ann Arbor is still, is likein my heart and in my mind that is,
it's a, it's beautiful memories.
It's some kind of, uh, I kind ofidyllic, you know, so, but I loved
it and I absolutely loved it.
Now you talk about your first roommatewhen you were at the University of
(39:00):
Michigan, and that didn't last too long.
But also during that period, Iguess you found your blackness.
I'm not sure what that means.
What does that mean?
Well, you became more culturally and civicaware of what was going on around, around
you and what was happening in the world.
Well, yes, because the civilrights movement came to campus.
(39:21):
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
You know, and remember around that timetoo, and just a little bit later, the
Vietnam War right, was, um, heating up.
So there were plenty of thingsgoing on on campus in regard to
both those occurrences or issues,civil rights and the Vietnam War.
There was a lot of activitythere, and I got to, um.
(39:44):
One of my roommates, Martha Prescott, whostill, who's now moved back to Michigan,
was the person who really introducedme to the Civil Rights movement.
She was very active and very, very smart,and I think because of influence, her
influence and other things going on Atthe time when I met Gil Moses and he was.
(40:05):
Setting up this theater to be apart of the Civil Rights movement.
I thought that was my entreeinto the Civil Rights Movement.
Now, once you attended the Universityof Michigan, but also you went off
to New York, why was that a learningexperience, uh, for you to help
shape the lady that you are today?
(40:25):
Well, I, I think, I reallythink it depends on how.
How you, how you seeyourself in the world.
I mean, most many women atthat time, not so much now.
Mm-hmm.
But at that time, people were lookingfor, uh, a different kind of life.
I was looking.
Or thinking, I don't know if I wasconsciously doing it, but I was thinking
(40:49):
of the world, not just of the mylittle place, in one place at a time.
I was looking to develop not onlymore intelligence, but more compa,
more compassion for the rest of theworld and other people besides myself.
And so.
Meeting people who were in the civilrights movement, which provoked my
going south, talking to them, listeningto them, and the passion and the, the,
(41:12):
the sense of duty to help other people.
All of those things became a partof the mix in my head that led me to
the south, but also fed me as a womanwho wanted to, to have a place in
the world that wasn't just, you know.
I don't wanna say just because it'svery important, housewife and mother.
(41:34):
I never really wanted to have children.
I wanted to work and that's basicallythe way my life is, has played out.
So I'm a worker bee, I always was, andI guess I will be, uh, until the end.
It's my, it's my comfort zone.
Absolutely.
So
is it true that prior to you becomingan actress and, and author and writer,
(41:57):
you wanted to become an attorney?
Uh, I flirted with that for a while.
Yeah.
Uh, I had to, oh, okay.
So I, I thought aboutbecoming a, an attorney.
Mm-hmm.
I used to also think aboutbeing in the foreign service.
Okay.
Being, you know, probablyworking for the CIA or something
and that would've been a hoot.
(42:18):
And then, um, yeah, those arethe two things, and, and they
were both things that would takeme up and out into the world.
Absolutely.
You and your, your writing, youtalk fondly about your grandparents.
Talk to us about your grandparents.
Oh, okay.
My grandparents on my dad's side.
(42:38):
Right.
Yeah.
We lived with them when we were very,my brother and I were very little.
They were really sturdy.
Strong people.
They came up to Detroit fromKentucky in about, uh, 1919.
'cause my dad was born in Detroit in 1920.
Uh, and he had an older sister, myAunt Flora, who was born, I guess, I
(43:03):
guess they both were born in Detroit.
So that part of my family,my dad's part of the family.
Were, I, I, it's hard, you know, they wereworking class black people who had middle
class aspirations and accomplishments.
(43:25):
For example, the house that they livedin in Detroit, which is a house my
brother and I were in repeatedly aslittle people, was not a big rich house.
It was a kind of a workingclass people house and a working
class people neighborhood.
But very nice.
Everything structured,everything cared for everything.
(43:45):
You know, the backyard was like a park.
The front yard was small, butit was constantly taken care of.
And I think I learned from my grandmother,mostly from my grandmother, the this
quality of taking care of property becauseshe, I mean, this woman worked every
day and took care of her home and yard.
(44:07):
She did everything.
So she was one of theprimary role models for me.
As I grew up.
I knew immediately that as soonas I got, you know, to be an adult
woman, that I was gonna own property.
There was no question about it.
If I had to, you know, take a job,take 40 jobs, I was gonna own property.
That, that's because theytaught me the value of that.
(44:30):
She also taught me how to.
How to, I don't know how to create a homethat has beautiful things and you know,
gorgeous things, and it's just a matter,of course, it's not anything special.
That's the way you're supposedto live, surrounded by as much
beauty as you can put around youwith plants and trees and flowers.
(44:52):
I mean, it's a very, I guess in a way itcould be kind of country because these
people did come from the country theycame from in the wilds of Kentucky, but.
For a city, for a city girl.
For me, it was like going to a kind ofhow to take care of a home charm school.
I mean, it was reallybecause she knew all of that.
(45:12):
I mean, she taught me about Crystal.
I write about this inthe book in China, and.
Silver and flowers and abeautiful yard and all this.
And if you came to this house thatI live in right now, it's a direct
reflection of the things she taught me.
Everything.
Yeah, understand.
If you're just joining us, I'm Johnny O.
Hanson Jr. And you're listening to InBlack America from KUT Radio, and we speak
(45:35):
with Denise Nichols, actress, activist,writer, author of Finding Home a memoir.
Denise talks about joiningthe Negro Ensemble Company in
1966, or was it prior to that?
It was 66.
Yeah.
Okay.
Uh, 67, the Negro Ensemble Company,which was founded by Robert Hooks,
Douglas Turner Ward in, um, Iforgot the financial guy's name.
(45:59):
Anyway, when I got up to New Yorkfrom the Free Southern Theater.
Uh, had finished my work thereand I was, uh, hired to do a play
with, uh, Vivica Lindfors and herhusband, George Tabori in New York.
So I went to New York, that's whattook me to New York, and I rehearsed
with them, went on the road withthem, uh, came back into New York.
(46:19):
City and, uh, started looking for,you know, like all actors do, started
looking for work, doing auditions,going from one theater to the next.
You know, you had to, you haveto be really young to do that.
So I did that and I didsome work right after that.
Uh, biblical in force piece.
And then I met Robert Hooks and DouglasTurner Ward and Gerald Cron was the
(46:42):
financial guy, just popped into my head.
So.
They saw me in the playsthat I did in New York.
So when the Negro Ensemble companywas forming, uh, I was, I went to
see about doing an audition and Iwas, had been unemployed for a bit,
so I got a job in the office firstdoing office work for the theater.
(47:02):
And then my audition was Douglas TurnerWard and Robert Hooks said that the work
that I had done with the Free SouthernTheater, some of which had been televised
in New York, and with the Open Theater andJudson Poets Theater and the thing with
the biblical infos, they accepted me intothe com company on the basis of work done.
(47:24):
So that was the beginning ofreally my professional career.
So I was there for the trainingprogram and there for the first
season, which was incredible.
And we opened with a play, theSong of the Luan Bogey by Peter
Weiss, which was a song, a playabout the Portuguese in Africa.
(47:45):
So.
It was right up my alley.
I was, I was in negro heaven.
And so then, uh, I did that firstseason and, and that's when a, BCE
had sent, um, agents to the theaterto see the, the new, the big hot
theater, the Negro Summer company.
And they reached out to me to comein for a reading for a new series.
(48:07):
I didn't know anything aboutit, so I went in, I got the
reading, and I did the reading.
I came back to work at the theater.
And then soon after that they saidthey wanted me to do a callback.
I went and did a callback in New York,and then they said, we wanna fly you
to California to do a screen test.
So I, they, I hadn't even been inCalifornia, so I went to California
(48:28):
and they, you know, they take very goodcare of you, at least they used to.
And I did a screen test for room2 22, came back to New York as I
waited for, for the answer on thescreen test, they flew me back to
Los Angeles for a personality test.
Which is where they just standyou in front of a camera and turn
the camera on and ask you a coupleof questions, and you just talk
(48:50):
your head off like I'm doing now.
That worked.
So soon after that, they told me I hadthe role on room 2 22 and I, it was
time for me to move to Los Angeles.
So that's, that's how that played out.
Being one of the few people ofcolor on television at that time.
Talk to us about that experience.
Well, you know, I. Because I had beenin the civil rights movement and because
(49:15):
I still paid attention to all of the,the stuff going on in Mississippi and
in Alabama and, and deep south places.
And I stayed tuned in, tuned intothe movement even after I went on,
uh, to be a professional actor.
So I think.
I think what I wanted to do, what I wantedto do was room 2 22 while it's filming,
(49:40):
and as soon as the the filming season isover, I wanted to go back to New York and
be a member of the Negro Ensemble Company.
That was my dream situation.
Uh, so after the first season, I wentback to New York, uh, and, you know, met
with the, the people who run the theater,Douglas Turner Award and Robert Hooks, and
(50:02):
they said, no, they needed a full company.
They couldn't have people comingin and going out, blah, blah, blah.
So I said, okay.
So I just, you know, came back to LA anddecided to focus on film and television,
uh, to see what I could make happen.
And that's the be, that's thefirst, that's the first chunk.
Of my career in Los Angeles, in Hollywood.
(50:23):
That right there, what I just described.
What first convinced you that actingis what you really wanted to do?
What, what changed?
What, what?
What changed your focus?
I, you know, I don't, I don't knowthat I ever felt that way about acting.
(50:45):
I enjoyed it.
Um, I certainly enjoyed makingmoney and you get a lot, you know,
if you're on a series like that,you get a whole lot of attention.
You know, pr tons of press attention andjust, you get a lot of attention, period.
Just people walking down the street,they see you, oh, aren't you on tv?
And that happens a lot.
So that.
(51:07):
That was, you know, that's a partof the deal when you do that.
But inside I always wanted somethingelse and it had to do with writing.
I was a good English student atUniversity of Michigan in high school,
and when I got to Ann Arbor, I exemptedout of the first year of English
that they require freshmen to take.
(51:27):
And even though I wasn't thinking.
No, I was thinking about being a writer.
I did not know how to be a writer.
I didn't even know howto get that door open.
It was like this great fantasy I carriedaround in my head that I was gonna, I
was gonna write a great book or I wasgonna, I was gonna be a writer because
I read so much and I so loved fiction.
(51:49):
Um, and I took all the Englishclasses, I took classes that I
wanted to take, and I discovered.
Different poets and different,uh, literary figures from England
and France and everywhere.
And I thought, oh my God.
And I was, as I said earlier, I was areader and I just loved books and I loved
words, and I loved that whole, you know,of course what I had in my head was an
(52:12):
idealized version of it, you know, notknowing how hard the work was until
later, but that's what I really alwayswanted to do, is what I'm doing now.
Right.
I think that one of the first thingsyou had published was in Essence
Yes.
Uhhuh.
Yeah.
And what was that?
(52:32):
That was, uh, a little short piece.
My sister Michelle, who's the one whowas murdered in New York and two other
close, close, close family, friends, olderwomen from Detroit came to California
to visit me, and we took a trip.
I bought a new Mercedes and thefour lady, the three of them got
(52:53):
in my car and oh, we went up to SanFrancisco on the coast route, which
is a beautiful, beautiful trip.
And I wanted to show people them, 'causethey were people that I loved dearly.
I wanted to show them the beautyof California, and particularly the
beauty of the coast, ride by theocean all the way up to San Francisco.
So that's what we did.
And we had an adventure.
(53:13):
Some of the, I mean, most everythingwas beautiful, but we had some.
Stressful things as well.
So when I got back and everybodywent off, went home, I started
writing a piece about the trip and.
So I kind of, I didn't, this was myfirst attempt at writing anything.
And I had a friend at Essence and Isent the piece to my, my friends there,
(53:38):
and they said, we can publish it.
And I was like, you are kidding.
You know?
I didn't even believe it.
And so they did.
And it's a little, I, I read it now 'causeI, I still have a copy of it and it's a
little rough around the edges, but I dida rewrite on it and it's published again.
And the volume, a gathering ofvoices, which comes out of the
writing workshop that I ran herein my house for a few years.
(53:59):
So we produced a volume of short piecesby all the members of the workshop
and my p, one of my pieces is thatpiece about the trip up the coast.
What was some of the things that youlearned and gathered from that workshop?
Well, I, I had taken a classwith, uh, a workshop with a, a
writer whose name is Janet Fitch.
(54:22):
She wrote a book called White Olender,which was a huge, huge, huge hit.
And I, I had a, a friend whowas in her workshop, and this
is all after, in the heat of thenight, was, uh, was, uh, stopped.
So I had started writing on inthe Heat of the Night 'cause Carol
O'Connor gave me a shot to write.
(54:42):
So I did six episodes and then I thoughtby the, at the end of that I said, okay,
now I'm in the lane that I wanna be in.
I'm writing and I'm getting paid to write.
So then my friend told friend toldme about Janet Fitch's workshop.
So I went and, and auditioned by sendingher something that I was working on
and she accepted me in the workshop.
(55:03):
So Freshwater Road comes out ofthat workshop, every single word.
So it was, um, about a three and ahalf year writing, uh, period to get
that book done, to get it written, andwith a lot of good help from people
in the workshop because they were.
The, it was critical.
You had to present your work and youhad to accept the criticism, discuss
(55:27):
it, and then go back and do rewrites.
So when I started the workshophere, it was based on what I had
experienced in that workshop.
So I gathered five other people whowere interested in writing all, all
of people, people I knew before andmany, um, they were all working on one.
One project or another,uh, as writer is fledgling,
(55:49):
fledgling, or beginning writers.
So at the workshop I try to emulate whatJanet Fitch had done in that workshop,
which was so incredibly successful.
So I brought her teachings tothis group of people, and it has,
it has basic, very basic things.
(56:11):
One of the things that she used toteach, uh, and hammer into our bony
heads was writing the the senses.
You are a human being and you have fivesenses, and all those senses have to
be at play when you write a characterbecause they are human beings, and
that helps the reader feel and get toknow the character that you're writing.
(56:34):
Denise Nicholas, actress,activist, writer, and author
of Finding Home a memoir.
If you have questions, comments, orsuggestions as to future in black America,
ros, email us at In Black america@kut.org.
Also, let us know what radiostation you heard us over.
Don't forget to subscribe to ourpodcast and follow us on Facebook nx.
(56:58):
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Also, you can listen to a specialcollection of In Black America
programs at American Archive of PublicBroadcasting as American archives.org.
The views and opinions expressedon this program are not necessary
those of this station or of theUniversity of Texas at Austin.
(57:21):
Until we have the opportunity again fora technical producer, David Alvarez.
I'm Johnelle Hansen, Jr. Thankyou for joining us today.
Please join us again next week.
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CDs, KUT Radio 300 West Dean KeatonBoulevard, Austin, Texas 7 8 7 1 2.
(57:46):
That's in Black America.
CDs, KUT Radio 300 WestDean Keaton Boulevard.
Austin, Texas 7 8 7 1 2.
This has been a production of KUT radio.
From the University ofTexas at Austin, KUT Radio.
This is in Black America.
I really think it depends on how.
How you, how you seeyourself in the world.
I mean, most many women atthat time, not so much now.
Mm-hmm.
But at that time, people were lookingfor, uh, a different kind of life.
(00:36):
I was looking or thinking, I don't knowif I was consciously doing it, but I was
thinking of the world, not just of the,my little place in one place at a time.
I was looking to develop not onlymore intelligence, but more compa,
more compassion for the rest of theworld and other people besides myself.
And so meeting people who were in thecivil rights movement, which provoked my
(01:00):
going south, talking to them and listeningto them and the passion and, and.
The, the sense of dutyto help other people.
All of those things became apart of the mix in my head.
Denise Nicholas, actor, activist,writer, and author of Finding Home,
a memoir published by Bolden Books.
(01:20):
Nicholas is the best known forportrayals of high school guiding
counselor Liz McIntyre on room 2 22on A BC TV from 1969 to 1974, and
Harriet DeLong on the TV version of Inthe Heat of the Night on NBC and CVS.
In a memoir of Finding home, sheexplored her six decade journey
(01:43):
through TV and film stardom.
Our experiences in Hollywood haveshaped her the real stories behind her
marriage to build with us her other twomarriages and subsequent romantic life,
and how she reinvented her creativelife to become a celebrated novel.
Nicholas began the career as afounding member of the Free Southern
Theater, joined Mississippi andLouisiana during the most violent
(02:06):
days of the Civil Rights Movement.
I am Johnny O. Hanson Jr. And welcometo another edition of In Black America
on this week's program, finding Homewith Denise Nicholas in Black America.
I had a friend who was in her workshop,and this is all after, in the Heat of
the night, was, uh, was, uh, stopped.
(02:27):
So I had started writing on Inthe Heat of the Night 'cause Carol
O'Connor gave me a shot to write.
So I did six episodes and then I thoughtby the, at the end of that I said, okay,
now I'm in the lane that I wanna be in.
I'm writing and I'm getting paid to write.
So then my friend told friend toldme about Janet Fit's workshop.
So I went and, and audition by sendingher something that I was working on
(02:49):
and she accepted me in the workshop.
So Freshwater Road comesout of that workshop every.
Single word.
So it was, um, about a three and a halfyear writing period to get that book
done, to get it written, and with a lotof good help from people in the workshop,
because they were, it was critical.
You had to present your work and youhad to accept the criticism, discuss
(03:13):
it, and then go back and do rewrites
growing up, middle class in 1950, Detroit.
Nicholas experienced a vibrant cultureand harsh reality of a segregated
city, which profoundly influencedher perspective on identity.
Nicholas entered the University ofMichigan as a pre-law student, but dropped
outta the university to tour the DeepSouth with the free Southern Theater
(03:37):
at the height of civil rights movement.
A few years later, she would gainnational fame on the groundbreaking A
BC TV comedy drama series, room 2 22.
In her book, finding Home Nickleyexplores the ways of experiences Hollywood
shaped her understanding of success.
Intimacy and commitment.
She candidly discusses the challengesshe face as a trailblazing actress
(04:00):
of color, shedding light on thesystematic barriers and biases
within the entertainment industry.
Nicholas presented emotionally charged andrichly complex picture of the realities
of personal and professional success asan African American woman in America.
Over the past 50 years, you beginyour book by talking about your mom.
(04:21):
Why start there?
I think because like with, with mostwomen, the mother character has the
most profound influence on your lifebecause moms are the ones who, who
prepare you for growing up more, muchmore so, and, and I guess dads or uncles.
(04:44):
Have some of the same function with men.
Yeah.
Now, when you began, thisis like your second book.
Yes.
Talk to us about that first bookthat you actually had published.
Freshwater Road.
Well, that book is, I thinkFreshwater Road is my favorite.
Piece of writing that I've done so far.
(05:04):
I love this memoir, but Freshwater Roadcame out of a love I had for the Civil
rights movement and the things thathappened in the South during those years.
And I was there for a part of thattime with the free Southern Theater.
So I tour toured around Mississippiand Louisiana and really that was
my first time in the deep South.
(05:26):
So I learned a lot and I saton it for years and years as
it percolated inside of me.
And I read and studied about the historyof the South and different things.
So when I got around toriding Freshwater Road, I was.
So deeply passionate about it,uh, is almost like I couldn't
(05:47):
breathe until I got it done.
And because I carried it from the timeI was in Mississippi in the sixties
until I started writing Freshwater Road.
I carried everything from that period inmy head, in my memory, and in my heart
because I knew, I, I knew that someday Iwould write something about that period.
(06:07):
So I think it's, uh, I love finding home.
It's a more difficult, in, in asense for me, a more difficult task
to write directly about myself.
And so, you know, I was, uh, I was, itwas a, a much more difficult write for me.
My publisher, Doug Zebo, a agatehad to continually push me forward
(06:29):
'cause I was ready to throwin the towel about 50 times.
And then, you know, with FreshwaterRoad, nobody had to do anything.
'cause I was so in lovewith the project itself.
I say you born in Detroit, but youall eventually moved to to Marlin,
Michigan, which is outside Detroit.
Talk to us about living in Detroitprior to you all moving to Marlin.
(06:54):
Well, I was pretty young, you know,um, 'cause I, when we moved out there,
I was put ahead a, a full grade andI ended up in the ninth grade when I
should have been in the eighth grade.
So back in Detroit at that time,you know, the city was changing
and it was evident that the citywas changing, not for the better.
(07:14):
And schools were going down because ofwhite flight and budgets and so forth.
And so.
Uh, my mother and my stepfather thoughtat best that I go to a different high
school, go to high school where hewas, you know, out in the town where
they were, were living because heworked out at the federal prison there.
(07:35):
So that was, for me, it was difficultbecause I didn't wanna leave the city.
I, I see myself as a city girl,and the little town that we
were moving to was very small.
And it was, uh, we were the onlyblack family in the town at that time.
So that was also difficult because asyou know, and I know and everybody knows
(07:56):
Detroit has an abundance of black people.
So, uh, that's what I was accustomed to.
So I went.
You know, I kind of fought a littlebit with my mom 'cause I wanted to
stay in Detroit with other relatives.
I didn't wanna leave the city, buteventually I went on out to Milan
and finished high school out there.
(08:17):
Uh, but it was difficultfor me because of culture.
Culture, uh, differences.
Uh, absolutely.
Now there was a learningexperience once you were.
Admitted and attended theUniversity of Michigan.
Talk to us about that experience priorto you going to the Free Southern Theater
Theater.
Well, I, I went to, I was a freshman atUniversity of Michigan when I was 17,
(08:41):
and which is kind of, you know, I was alittle bit young, but, and, and I think
that when looking back on it, my youthtranslates to immaturity of course.
So my, my grades were good.
My scholarship was good, but.
I was still a kid and University ofMichigan, uh, as I'm sure you know, is
(09:06):
a very sophisticated, very large campuswith, uh, it was very swift moving.
It felt more like a little New York.
So, you know, so it was, what Isay in the book is Ann Arbor picked
me up on my bootstraps and turnedme every which way but loose.
So it was great and it was challenging.
(09:27):
And I refer to it constantly in mylife because in a sense I loved it
there, but once I went south, I wasn'tgoing back to school at that time.
I eventually did go back toschool here and graduated from
University of Southern California.
So, but Ann Arbor is still, is likein my heart and in my mind that is,
it's a, it's beautiful memories.
(09:48):
It's some kind of, uh, I kind ofidyllic, you know, so, but I loved
it and I absolutely loved it.
Now you talk about your first roommatewhen you were at the University of
Michigan, and that didn't last too long.
But also during that period, Iguess you found your blackness.
I'm not sure what that means.
(10:09):
What does that mean?
Well, you became more culturally and civicaware of what was going on around, around
you and what was happening in the world.
Well, yes, because the civilrights movement came to campus.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
You know, and remember around that timetoo, and just a little bit later, the
Vietnam War right, was, um, heating up.
(10:30):
So there were plenty of thingsgoing on on campus in regard to
both those occurrences or issues,civil rights and the Vietnam War.
There was a lot of activitythere, and I got to, um.
One of my roommates, Martha Prescott, whostill, who's now moved back to Michigan,
was the person who really introducedme to the Civil Rights movement.
(10:53):
She was very active and very, very smart,and I think because of influence, her
influence and other things going on Atthe time when I met Gil Moses and he was.
Setting up this theater to be apart of the Civil Rights movement.
I thought that was my entreeinto the Civil Rights Movement.
Now, once you attended the Universityof Michigan, but also you went off
(11:18):
to New York, why was that a learningexperience, uh, for you to help
shape the lady that you are today?
Well, I, I think, I reallythink it depends on how.
How you, how you seeyourself in the world.
I mean, most many women atthat time, not so much now.
Mm-hmm.
But at that time, people were lookingfor, uh, a different kind of life.
(11:41):
I was looking.
Or thinking, I don't know if I wasconsciously doing it, but I was thinking
of the world, not just of the mylittle place, in one place at a time.
I was looking to develop not onlymore intelligence, but more compa,
more compassion for the rest of theworld and other people besides myself.
(12:02):
And so.
Meeting people who were in the civilrights movement, which provoked my
going south, talking to them, listeningto them, and the passion and the, the,
the sense of duty to help other people.
All of those things became a partof the mix in my head that led me to
the south, but also fed me as a womanwho wanted to, to have a place in
(12:26):
the world that wasn't just, you know.
I don't wanna say just because it'svery important, housewife and mother.
I never really wanted to have children.
I wanted to work and that's basicallythe way my life is, has played out.
So I'm a worker bee, I always was, andI guess I will be, uh, until the end.
It's my, it's my comfort zone.
(12:49):
Absolutely.
So
is it true that prior to you becomingan actress and, and author and writer,
you wanted to become an attorney?
Uh, I flirted with that for a while.
Yeah.
Uh, I had to, oh, okay.
So I, I thought aboutbecoming a, an attorney.
Mm-hmm.
I used to also think aboutbeing in the foreign service.
(13:12):
Okay.
Being, you know, probablyworking for the CIA or something
and that would've been a hoot.
And then, um, yeah, those arethe two things, and, and they
were both things that would takeme up and out into the world.
Absolutely.
You and your, your writing, youtalk fondly about your grandparents.
(13:32):
Talk to us about your grandparents.
Oh, okay.
My grandparents on my dad's side.
Right.
Yeah.
We lived with them when we were very,my brother and I were very little.
They were really sturdy.
Strong people.
They came up to Detroit fromKentucky in about, uh, 1919.
(13:54):
'cause my dad was born in Detroit in 1920.
Uh, and he had an older sister, myAunt Flora, who was born, I guess, I
guess they both were born in Detroit.
So that part of my family,my dad's part of the family.
Were, I, I, it's hard, you know, they wereworking class black people who had middle
(14:20):
class aspirations and accomplishments.
For example, the house that they livedin in Detroit, which is a house my
brother and I were in repeatedly aslittle people, was not a big rich house.
It was a kind of a workingclass people house and a working
class people neighborhood.
(14:41):
But very nice.
Everything structured,everything cared for everything.
You know, the backyard was like a park.
The front yard was small, butit was constantly taken care of.
And I think I learned from my grandmother,mostly from my grandmother, the this
quality of taking care of property becauseshe, I mean, this woman worked every
(15:02):
day and took care of her home and yard.
She did everything.
So she was one of theprimary role models for me.
As I grew up.
I knew immediately that as soonas I got, you know, to be an adult
woman, that I was gonna own property.
There was no question about it.
If I had to, you know, take a job,take 40 jobs, I was gonna own property.
(15:26):
That, that's because theytaught me the value of that.
She also taught me how to.
How to, I don't know how to create a homethat has beautiful things and you know,
gorgeous things, and it's just a matter,of course, it's not anything special.
That's the way you're supposedto live, surrounded by as much
(15:48):
beauty as you can put around youwith plants and trees and flowers.
I mean, it's a very, I guess in a way itcould be kind of country because these
people did come from the country theycame from in the wilds of Kentucky, but.
For a city, for a city girl.
For me, it was like going to a kind ofhow to take care of a home charm school.
(16:09):
I mean, it was reallybecause she knew all of that.
I mean, she taught me about Crystal.
I write about this inthe book in China, and.
Silver and flowers and abeautiful yard and all this.
And if you came to this house thatI live in right now, it's a direct
reflection of the things she taught me.
Everything.
Yeah, understand.
If you're just joining us, I'm Johnny O.
(16:30):
Hanson Jr. And you're listening to InBlack America from KUT Radio, and we speak
with Denise Nichols, actress, activist,writer, author of Finding Home a memoir.
Denise talks about joiningthe Negro Ensemble Company in
1966, or was it prior to that?
It was 66.
Yeah.
Okay.
Uh, 67, the Negro Ensemble Company,which was founded by Robert Hooks,
(16:54):
Douglas Turner Ward in, um, Iforgot the financial guy's name.
Anyway, when I got up to New Yorkfrom the Free Southern Theater.
Uh, had finished my work thereand I was, uh, hired to do a play
with, uh, Vivica Lindfors and herhusband, George Tabori in New York.
So I went to New York, that's whattook me to New York, and I rehearsed
(17:15):
with them, went on the road withthem, uh, came back into New York.
City and, uh, started looking for,you know, like all actors do, started
looking for work, doing auditions,going from one theater to the next.
You know, you had to, you haveto be really young to do that.
So I did that and I didsome work right after that.
(17:36):
Uh, biblical in force piece.
And then I met Robert Hooks and DouglasTurner Ward and Gerald Cron was the
financial guy, just popped into my head.
So.
They saw me in the playsthat I did in New York.
So when the Negro Ensemble companywas forming, uh, I was, I went to
see about doing an audition and Iwas, had been unemployed for a bit,
(17:57):
so I got a job in the office firstdoing office work for the theater.
And then my audition was Douglas TurnerWard and Robert Hooks said that the work
that I had done with the Free SouthernTheater, some of which had been televised
in New York, and with the Open Theater andJudson Poets Theater and the thing with
(18:19):
the biblical infos, they accepted me intothe com company on the basis of work done.
So that was the beginning ofreally my professional career.
So I was there for the trainingprogram and there for the first
season, which was incredible.
And we opened with a play, theSong of the Luan Bogey by Peter
(18:40):
Weiss, which was a song, a playabout the Portuguese in Africa.
So.
It was right up my alley.
I was, I was in negro heaven.
And so then, uh, I did that firstseason and, and that's when a, BCE
had sent, um, agents to the theaterto see the, the new, the big hot
(19:00):
theater, the Negro Summer company.
And they reached out to me to comein for a reading for a new series.
I didn't know anything aboutit, so I went in, I got the
reading, and I did the reading.
I came back to work at the theater.
And then soon after that they saidthey wanted me to do a callback.
I went and did a callback in New York,and then they said, we wanna fly you
(19:21):
to California to do a screen test.
So I, they, I hadn't even been inCalifornia, so I went to California
and they, you know, they take very goodcare of you, at least they used to.
And I did a screen test for room2 22, came back to New York as I
waited for, for the answer on thescreen test, they flew me back to
Los Angeles for a personality test.
(19:44):
Which is where they just standyou in front of a camera and turn
the camera on and ask you a coupleof questions, and you just talk
your head off like I'm doing now.
That worked.
So soon after that, they told me I hadthe role on room 2 22 and I, it was
time for me to move to Los Angeles.
So that's, that's how that played out.
Being one of the few people ofcolor on television at that time.
(20:06):
Talk to us about that experience.
Well, you know, I. Because I had beenin the civil rights movement and because
I still paid attention to all of the,the stuff going on in Mississippi and
in Alabama and, and deep south places.
And I stayed tuned in, tuned intothe movement even after I went on,
(20:27):
uh, to be a professional actor.
So I think.
I think what I wanted to do, what I wantedto do was room 2 22 while it's filming,
and as soon as the the filming season isover, I wanted to go back to New York and
be a member of the Negro Ensemble Company.
(20:48):
That was my dream situation.
Uh, so after the first season, I wentback to New York, uh, and, you know, met
with the, the people who run the theater,Douglas Turner Award and Robert Hooks, and
they said, no, they needed a full company.
They couldn't have people comingin and going out, blah, blah, blah.
So I said, okay.
(21:08):
So I just, you know, came back to LA anddecided to focus on film and television,
uh, to see what I could make happen.
And that's the be, that's thefirst, that's the first chunk.
Of my career in Los Angeles, in Hollywood.
That right there, what I just described.
What first convinced you that actingis what you really wanted to do?
(21:34):
What, what changed?
What, what?
What changed your focus?
I, you know, I don't, I don't knowthat I ever felt that way about acting.
I enjoyed it.
Um, I certainly enjoyed makingmoney and you get a lot, you know,
if you're on a series like that,you get a whole lot of attention.
(21:54):
You know, pr tons of press attention andjust, you get a lot of attention, period.
Just people walking down the street,they see you, oh, aren't you on tv?
And that happens a lot.
So that.
That was, you know, that's a partof the deal when you do that.
But inside I always wanted somethingelse and it had to do with writing.
(22:16):
I was a good English student atUniversity of Michigan in high school,
and when I got to Ann Arbor, I exemptedout of the first year of English
that they require freshmen to take.
And even though I wasn't thinking.
No, I was thinking about being a writer.
I did not know how to be a writer.
I didn't even know howto get that door open.
(22:38):
It was like this great fantasy I carriedaround in my head that I was gonna, I
was gonna write a great book or I wasgonna, I was gonna be a writer because
I read so much and I so loved fiction.
Um, and I took all the Englishclasses, I took classes that I
wanted to take, and I discovered.
Different poets and different,uh, literary figures from England
(22:59):
and France and everywhere.
And I thought, oh my God.
And I was, as I said earlier, I was areader and I just loved books and I loved
words, and I loved that whole, you know,of course what I had in my head was an
idealized version of it, you know, notknowing how hard the work was until
later, but that's what I really alwayswanted to do, is what I'm doing now.
(23:23):
Right.
I think that one of the first thingsyou had published was in Essence
Yes.
Uhhuh.
Yeah.
And what was that?
That was, uh, a little short piece.
My sister Michelle, who's the one whowas murdered in New York and two other
close, close, close family, friends, olderwomen from Detroit came to California
(23:46):
to visit me, and we took a trip.
I bought a new Mercedes and thefour lady, the three of them got
in my car and oh, we went up to SanFrancisco on the coast route, which
is a beautiful, beautiful trip.
And I wanted to show people them, 'causethey were people that I loved dearly.
I wanted to show them the beautyof California, and particularly the
(24:06):
beauty of the coast, ride by theocean all the way up to San Francisco.
So that's what we did.
And we had an adventure.
Some of the, I mean, most everythingwas beautiful, but we had some.
Stressful things as well.
So when I got back and everybodywent off, went home, I started
writing a piece about the trip and.
(24:28):
So I kind of, I didn't, this was myfirst attempt at writing anything.
And I had a friend at Essence and Isent the piece to my, my friends there,
and they said, we can publish it.
And I was like, you are kidding.
You know?
I didn't even believe it.
And so they did.
And it's a little, I, I read it now 'causeI, I still have a copy of it and it's a
little rough around the edges, but I dida rewrite on it and it's published again.
(24:52):
And the volume, a gathering ofvoices, which comes out of the
writing workshop that I ran herein my house for a few years.
So we produced a volume of short piecesby all the members of the workshop
and my p, one of my pieces is thatpiece about the trip up the coast.
What was some of the things that youlearned and gathered from that workshop?
(25:13):
Well, I, I had taken a classwith, uh, a workshop with a, a
writer whose name is Janet Fitch.
She wrote a book called White Olender,which was a huge, huge, huge hit.
And I, I had a, a friend whowas in her workshop, and this
(25:34):
is all after, in the heat of thenight, was, uh, was, uh, stopped.
So I had started writing on inthe Heat of the Night 'cause Carol
O'Connor gave me a shot to write.
So I did six episodes and then I thoughtby the, at the end of that I said, okay,
now I'm in the lane that I wanna be in.
I'm writing and I'm getting paid to write.
So then my friend told friend toldme about Janet Fitch's workshop.
(25:56):
So I went and, and auditioned by sendingher something that I was working on
and she accepted me in the workshop.
So Freshwater Road comes out ofthat workshop, every single word.
So it was, um, about a three and ahalf year writing, uh, period to get
that book done, to get it written, andwith a lot of good help from people
(26:20):
in the workshop because they were.
The, it was critical.
You had to present your work and youhad to accept the criticism, discuss
it, and then go back and do rewrites.
So when I started the workshophere, it was based on what I had
experienced in that workshop.
So I gathered five other people whowere interested in writing all, all
of people, people I knew before andmany, um, they were all working on one.
(26:45):
One project or another,uh, as writer is fledgling,
fledgling, or beginning writers.
So at the workshop I try to emulate whatJanet Fitch had done in that workshop,
which was so incredibly successful.
So I brought her teachings tothis group of people, and it has,
(27:08):
it has basic, very basic things.
One of the things that she used toteach, uh, and hammer into our bony
heads was writing the the senses.
You are a human being and you have fivesenses, and all those senses have to
be at play when you write a characterbecause they are human beings, and
(27:28):
that helps the reader feel and get toknow the character that you're writing.
Denise Nicholas, actress,activist, writer, and author
of Finding Home a memoir.
If you have questions, comments, orsuggestions as to future in black America,
ros, email us at In Black america@kut.org.
(27:49):
Also, let us know what radiostation you heard us over.
Don't forget to subscribe to ourpodcast and follow us on Facebook nx.
You can have previousprograms online@kut.org.
Also, you can listen to a specialcollection of In Black America
programs at American Archive of PublicBroadcasting as American archives.org.
(28:12):
The views and opinions expressedon this program are not necessary
those of this station or of theUniversity of Texas at Austin.
Until we have the opportunity again fora technical producer, David Alvarez.
I'm Johnelle Hansen, Jr. Thankyou for joining us today.
Please join us again next week.
Cd copies of this program areavailable and may be purchased
(28:35):
by writing in Black America.
CDs, KUT Radio 300 West Dean KeatonBoulevard, Austin, Texas 7 8 7 1 2.
That's in Black America.
CDs, KUT Radio 300 WestDean Keaton Boulevard.
Austin, Texas 7 8 7 1 2.
(28:57):
This has been a production of KUT radio.
From the University ofTexas at Austin, KUT Radio.
(29:20):
This is in Black America.
I really think it depends on how.
How you, how you seeyourself in the world.
I mean, most many women atthat time, not so much now.
Mm-hmm.
But at that time, people were lookingfor, uh, a different kind of life.
I was looking or thinking, I don't knowif I was consciously doing it, but I was
(29:41):
thinking of the world, not just of the,my little place in one place at a time.
I was looking to develop not onlymore intelligence, but more compa,
more compassion for the rest of theworld and other people besides myself.
And so meeting people who were in thecivil rights movement, which provoked my
going south, talking to them and listeningto them and the passion and, and.
(30:04):
The, the sense of dutyto help other people.
All of those things became apart of the mix in my head.
Denise Nicholas, actor, activist,writer, and author of Finding Home,
a memoir published by Bolden Books.
Nicholas is the best known forportrayals of high school guiding
counselor Liz McIntyre on room 2 22on A BC TV from 1969 to 1974, and
(30:32):
Harriet DeLong on the TV version of Inthe Heat of the Night on NBC and CVS.
In a memoir of Finding home, sheexplored her six decade journey
through TV and film stardom.
Our experiences in Hollywood haveshaped her the real stories behind her
marriage to build with us her other twomarriages and subsequent romantic life,
(30:54):
and how she reinvented her creativelife to become a celebrated novel.
Nicholas began the career as afounding member of the Free Southern
Theater, joined Mississippi andLouisiana during the most violent
days of the Civil Rights Movement.
I am Johnny O. Hanson Jr. And welcometo another edition of In Black America
(31:15):
on this week's program, finding Homewith Denise Nicholas in Black America.
I had a friend who was in her workshop,and this is all after, in the Heat of
the night, was, uh, was, uh, stopped.
So I had started writing on Inthe Heat of the Night 'cause Carol
O'Connor gave me a shot to write.
So I did six episodes and then I thoughtby the, at the end of that I said, okay,
(31:36):
now I'm in the lane that I wanna be in.
I'm writing and I'm getting paid to write.
So then my friend told friend toldme about Janet Fit's workshop.
So I went and, and audition by sendingher something that I was working on
and she accepted me in the workshop.
So Freshwater Road comesout of that workshop every.
Single word.
(31:56):
So it was, um, about a three and a halfyear writing period to get that book
done, to get it written, and with a lotof good help from people in the workshop,
because they were, it was critical.
You had to present your work and youhad to accept the criticism, discuss
it, and then go back and do rewrites
growing up, middle class in 1950, Detroit.
(32:19):
Nicholas experienced a vibrant cultureand harsh reality of a segregated
city, which profoundly influencedher perspective on identity.
Nicholas entered the University ofMichigan as a pre-law student, but dropped
outta the university to tour the DeepSouth with the free Southern Theater
at the height of civil rights movement.
A few years later, she would gainnational fame on the groundbreaking A
(32:43):
BC TV comedy drama series, room 2 22.
In her book, finding Home Nickleyexplores the ways of experiences Hollywood
shaped her understanding of success.
Intimacy and commitment.
She candidly discusses the challengesshe face as a trailblazing actress
of color, shedding light on thesystematic barriers and biases
(33:04):
within the entertainment industry.
Nicholas presented emotionally charged andrichly complex picture of the realities
of personal and professional success asan African American woman in America.
Over the past 50 years, you beginyour book by talking about your mom.
Why start there?
I think because like with, with mostwomen, the mother character has the
(33:30):
most profound influence on your lifebecause moms are the ones who, who
prepare you for growing up more, muchmore so, and, and I guess dads or uncles.
Have some of the same function with men.
Yeah.
Now, when you began, thisis like your second book.
(33:51):
Yes.
Talk to us about that first bookthat you actually had published.
Freshwater Road.
Well, that book is, I thinkFreshwater Road is my favorite.
Piece of writing that I've done so far.
I love this memoir, but Freshwater Roadcame out of a love I had for the Civil
rights movement and the things thathappened in the South during those years.
(34:15):
And I was there for a part of thattime with the free Southern Theater.
So I tour toured around Mississippiand Louisiana and really that was
my first time in the deep South.
So I learned a lot and I saton it for years and years as
it percolated inside of me.
And I read and studied about the historyof the South and different things.
(34:37):
So when I got around toriding Freshwater Road, I was.
So deeply passionate about it,uh, is almost like I couldn't
breathe until I got it done.
And because I carried it from the timeI was in Mississippi in the sixties
until I started writing Freshwater Road.
I carried everything from that period inmy head, in my memory, and in my heart
(35:01):
because I knew, I, I knew that someday Iwould write something about that period.
So I think it's, uh, I love finding home.
It's a more difficult, in, in asense for me, a more difficult task
to write directly about myself.
And so, you know, I was, uh, I was, itwas a, a much more difficult write for me.
(35:24):
My publisher, Doug Zebo, a agatehad to continually push me forward
'cause I was ready to throwin the towel about 50 times.
And then, you know, with FreshwaterRoad, nobody had to do anything.
'cause I was so in lovewith the project itself.
I say you born in Detroit, but youall eventually moved to to Marlin,
(35:45):
Michigan, which is outside Detroit.
Talk to us about living in Detroitprior to you all moving to Marlin.
Well, I was pretty young, you know,um, 'cause I, when we moved out there,
I was put ahead a, a full grade andI ended up in the ninth grade when I
should have been in the eighth grade.
(36:06):
So back in Detroit at that time,you know, the city was changing
and it was evident that the citywas changing, not for the better.
And schools were going down because ofwhite flight and budgets and so forth.
And so.
Uh, my mother and my stepfather thoughtat best that I go to a different high
(36:28):
school, go to high school where hewas, you know, out in the town where
they were, were living because heworked out at the federal prison there.
So that was, for me, it was difficultbecause I didn't wanna leave the city.
I, I see myself as a city girl,and the little town that we
were moving to was very small.
And it was, uh, we were the onlyblack family in the town at that time.
(36:52):
So that was also difficult because asyou know, and I know and everybody knows
Detroit has an abundance of black people.
So, uh, that's what I was accustomed to.
So I went.
You know, I kind of fought a littlebit with my mom 'cause I wanted to
stay in Detroit with other relatives.
I didn't wanna leave the city, buteventually I went on out to Milan
(37:14):
and finished high school out there.
Uh, but it was difficultfor me because of culture.
Culture, uh, differences.
Uh, absolutely.
Now there was a learningexperience once you were.
Admitted and attended theUniversity of Michigan.
Talk to us about that experience priorto you going to the Free Southern Theater
Theater.
(37:35):
Well, I, I went to, I was a freshman atUniversity of Michigan when I was 17,
and which is kind of, you know, I was alittle bit young, but, and, and I think
that when looking back on it, my youthtranslates to immaturity of course.
So my, my grades were good.
(37:55):
My scholarship was good, but.
I was still a kid and University ofMichigan, uh, as I'm sure you know, is
a very sophisticated, very large campuswith, uh, it was very swift moving.
It felt more like a little New York.
So, you know, so it was, what Isay in the book is Ann Arbor picked
(38:18):
me up on my bootstraps and turnedme every which way but loose.
So it was great and it was challenging.
And I refer to it constantly in mylife because in a sense I loved it
there, but once I went south, I wasn'tgoing back to school at that time.
I eventually did go back toschool here and graduated from
(38:38):
University of Southern California.
So, but Ann Arbor is still, is likein my heart and in my mind that is,
it's a, it's beautiful memories.
It's some kind of, uh, I kind ofidyllic, you know, so, but I loved
it and I absolutely loved it.
Now you talk about your first roommatewhen you were at the University of
(39:00):
Michigan, and that didn't last too long.
But also during that period, Iguess you found your blackness.
I'm not sure what that means.
What does that mean?
Well, you became more culturally and civicaware of what was going on around, around
you and what was happening in the world.
Well, yes, because the civilrights movement came to campus.
(39:21):
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
You know, and remember around that timetoo, and just a little bit later, the
Vietnam War right, was, um, heating up.
So there were plenty of thingsgoing on on campus in regard to
both those occurrences or issues,civil rights and the Vietnam War.
There was a lot of activitythere, and I got to, um.
(39:44):
One of my roommates, Martha Prescott, whostill, who's now moved back to Michigan,
was the person who really introducedme to the Civil Rights movement.
She was very active and very, very smart,and I think because of influence, her
influence and other things going on Atthe time when I met Gil Moses and he was.
(40:05):
Setting up this theater to be apart of the Civil Rights movement.
I thought that was my entreeinto the Civil Rights Movement.
Now, once you attended the Universityof Michigan, but also you went off
to New York, why was that a learningexperience, uh, for you to help
shape the lady that you are today?
(40:25):
Well, I, I think, I reallythink it depends on how.
How you, how you seeyourself in the world.
I mean, most many women atthat time, not so much now.
Mm-hmm.
But at that time, people were lookingfor, uh, a different kind of life.
I was looking.
Or thinking, I don't know if I wasconsciously doing it, but I was thinking
(40:49):
of the world, not just of the mylittle place, in one place at a time.
I was looking to develop not onlymore intelligence, but more compa,
more compassion for the rest of theworld and other people besides myself.
And so.
Meeting people who were in the civilrights movement, which provoked my
going south, talking to them, listeningto them, and the passion and the, the,
(41:12):
the sense of duty to help other people.
All of those things became a partof the mix in my head that led me to
the south, but also fed me as a womanwho wanted to, to have a place in
the world that wasn't just, you know.
I don't wanna say just because it'svery important, housewife and mother.
(41:34):
I never really wanted to have children.
I wanted to work and that's basicallythe way my life is, has played out.
So I'm a worker bee, I always was, andI guess I will be, uh, until the end.
It's my, it's my comfort zone.
Absolutely.
So
is it true that prior to you becomingan actress and, and author and writer,
(41:57):
you wanted to become an attorney?
Uh, I flirted with that for a while.
Yeah.
Uh, I had to, oh, okay.
So I, I thought aboutbecoming a, an attorney.
Mm-hmm.
I used to also think aboutbeing in the foreign service.
Okay.
Being, you know, probablyworking for the CIA or something
and that would've been a hoot.
(42:18):
And then, um, yeah, those arethe two things, and, and they
were both things that would takeme up and out into the world.
Absolutely.
You and your, your writing, youtalk fondly about your grandparents.
Talk to us about your grandparents.
Oh, okay.
My grandparents on my dad's side.
(42:38):
Right.
Yeah.
We lived with them when we were very,my brother and I were very little.
They were really sturdy.
Strong people.
They came up to Detroit fromKentucky in about, uh, 1919.
'cause my dad was born in Detroit in 1920.
Uh, and he had an older sister, myAunt Flora, who was born, I guess, I
(43:03):
guess they both were born in Detroit.
So that part of my family,my dad's part of the family.
Were, I, I, it's hard, you know, they wereworking class black people who had middle
class aspirations and accomplishments.
(43:25):
For example, the house that they livedin in Detroit, which is a house my
brother and I were in repeatedly aslittle people, was not a big rich house.
It was a kind of a workingclass people house and a working
class people neighborhood.
But very nice.
Everything structured,everything cared for everything.
(43:45):
You know, the backyard was like a park.
The front yard was small, butit was constantly taken care of.
And I think I learned from my grandmother,mostly from my grandmother, the this
quality of taking care of property becauseshe, I mean, this woman worked every
day and took care of her home and yard.
(44:07):
She did everything.
So she was one of theprimary role models for me.
As I grew up.
I knew immediately that as soonas I got, you know, to be an adult
woman, that I was gonna own property.
There was no question about it.
If I had to, you know, take a job,take 40 jobs, I was gonna own property.
That, that's because theytaught me the value of that.
(44:30):
She also taught me how to.
How to, I don't know how to create a homethat has beautiful things and you know,
gorgeous things, and it's just a matter,of course, it's not anything special.
That's the way you're supposedto live, surrounded by as much
beauty as you can put around youwith plants and trees and flowers.
(44:52):
I mean, it's a very, I guess in a way itcould be kind of country because these
people did come from the country theycame from in the wilds of Kentucky, but.
For a city, for a city girl.
For me, it was like going to a kind ofhow to take care of a home charm school.
I mean, it was reallybecause she knew all of that.
(45:12):
I mean, she taught me about Crystal.
I write about this inthe book in China, and.
Silver and flowers and abeautiful yard and all this.
And if you came to this house thatI live in right now, it's a direct
reflection of the things she taught me.
Everything.
Yeah, understand.
If you're just joining us, I'm Johnny O.
Hanson Jr. And you're listening to InBlack America from KUT Radio, and we speak
(45:35):
with Denise Nichols, actress, activist,writer, author of Finding Home a memoir.
Denise talks about joiningthe Negro Ensemble Company in
1966, or was it prior to that?
It was 66.
Yeah.
Okay.
Uh, 67, the Negro Ensemble Company,which was founded by Robert Hooks,
Douglas Turner Ward in, um, Iforgot the financial guy's name.
(45:59):
Anyway, when I got up to New Yorkfrom the Free Southern Theater.
Uh, had finished my work thereand I was, uh, hired to do a play
with, uh, Vivica Lindfors and herhusband, George Tabori in New York.
So I went to New York, that's whattook me to New York, and I rehearsed
with them, went on the road withthem, uh, came back into New York.
(46:19):
City and, uh, started looking for,you know, like all actors do, started
looking for work, doing auditions,going from one theater to the next.
You know, you had to, you haveto be really young to do that.
So I did that and I didsome work right after that.
Uh, biblical in force piece.
And then I met Robert Hooks and DouglasTurner Ward and Gerald Cron was the
(46:42):
financial guy, just popped into my head.
So.
They saw me in the playsthat I did in New York.
So when the Negro Ensemble companywas forming, uh, I was, I went to
see about doing an audition and Iwas, had been unemployed for a bit,
so I got a job in the office firstdoing office work for the theater.
(47:02):
And then my audition was Douglas TurnerWard and Robert Hooks said that the work
that I had done with the Free SouthernTheater, some of which had been televised
in New York, and with the Open Theater andJudson Poets Theater and the thing with
the biblical infos, they accepted me intothe com company on the basis of work done.
(47:24):
So that was the beginning ofreally my professional career.
So I was there for the trainingprogram and there for the first
season, which was incredible.
And we opened with a play, theSong of the Luan Bogey by Peter
Weiss, which was a song, a playabout the Portuguese in Africa.
(47:45):
So.
It was right up my alley.
I was, I was in negro heaven.
And so then, uh, I did that firstseason and, and that's when a, BCE
had sent, um, agents to the theaterto see the, the new, the big hot
theater, the Negro Summer company.
And they reached out to me to comein for a reading for a new series.
(48:07):
I didn't know anything aboutit, so I went in, I got the
reading, and I did the reading.
I came back to work at the theater.
And then soon after that they saidthey wanted me to do a callback.
I went and did a callback in New York,and then they said, we wanna fly you
to California to do a screen test.
So I, they, I hadn't even been inCalifornia, so I went to California
(48:28):
and they, you know, they take very goodcare of you, at least they used to.
And I did a screen test for room2 22, came back to New York as I
waited for, for the answer on thescreen test, they flew me back to
Los Angeles for a personality test.
Which is where they just standyou in front of a camera and turn
the camera on and ask you a coupleof questions, and you just talk
(48:50):
your head off like I'm doing now.
That worked.
So soon after that, they told me I hadthe role on room 2 22 and I, it was
time for me to move to Los Angeles.
So that's, that's how that played out.
Being one of the few people ofcolor on television at that time.
Talk to us about that experience.
Well, you know, I. Because I had beenin the civil rights movement and because
(49:15):
I still paid attention to all of the,the stuff going on in Mississippi and
in Alabama and, and deep south places.
And I stayed tuned in, tuned intothe movement even after I went on,
uh, to be a professional actor.
So I think.
I think what I wanted to do, what I wantedto do was room 2 22 while it's filming,
(49:40):
and as soon as the the filming season isover, I wanted to go back to New York and
be a member of the Negro Ensemble Company.
That was my dream situation.
Uh, so after the first season, I wentback to New York, uh, and, you know, met
with the, the people who run the theater,Douglas Turner Award and Robert Hooks, and
(50:02):
they said, no, they needed a full company.
They couldn't have people comingin and going out, blah, blah, blah.
So I said, okay.
So I just, you know, came back to LA anddecided to focus on film and television,
uh, to see what I could make happen.
And that's the be, that's thefirst, that's the first chunk.
Of my career in Los Angeles, in Hollywood.
(50:23):
That right there, what I just described.
What first convinced you that actingis what you really wanted to do?
What, what changed?
What, what?
What changed your focus?
I, you know, I don't, I don't knowthat I ever felt that way about acting.
(50:45):
I enjoyed it.
Um, I certainly enjoyed makingmoney and you get a lot, you know,
if you're on a series like that,you get a whole lot of attention.
You know, pr tons of press attention andjust, you get a lot of attention, period.
Just people walking down the street,they see you, oh, aren't you on tv?
And that happens a lot.
So that.
(51:07):
That was, you know, that's a partof the deal when you do that.
But inside I always wanted somethingelse and it had to do with writing.
I was a good English student atUniversity of Michigan in high school,
and when I got to Ann Arbor, I exemptedout of the first year of English
that they require freshmen to take.
(51:27):
And even though I wasn't thinking.
No, I was thinking about being a writer.
I did not know how to be a writer.
I didn't even know howto get that door open.
It was like this great fantasy I carriedaround in my head that I was gonna, I
was gonna write a great book or I wasgonna, I was gonna be a writer because
I read so much and I so loved fiction.
(51:49):
Um, and I took all the Englishclasses, I took classes that I
wanted to take, and I discovered.
Different poets and different,uh, literary figures from England
and France and everywhere.
And I thought, oh my God.
And I was, as I said earlier, I was areader and I just loved books and I loved
words, and I loved that whole, you know,of course what I had in my head was an
(52:12):
idealized version of it, you know, notknowing how hard the work was until
later, but that's what I really alwayswanted to do, is what I'm doing now.
Right.
I think that one of the first thingsyou had published was in Essence
Yes.
Uhhuh.
Yeah.
And what was that?
(52:32):
That was, uh, a little short piece.
My sister Michelle, who's the one whowas murdered in New York and two other
close, close, close family, friends, olderwomen from Detroit came to California
to visit me, and we took a trip.
I bought a new Mercedes and thefour lady, the three of them got
(52:53):
in my car and oh, we went up to SanFrancisco on the coast route, which
is a beautiful, beautiful trip.
And I wanted to show people them, 'causethey were people that I loved dearly.
I wanted to show them the beautyof California, and particularly the
beauty of the coast, ride by theocean all the way up to San Francisco.
So that's what we did.
And we had an adventure.
(53:13):
Some of the, I mean, most everythingwas beautiful, but we had some.
Stressful things as well.
So when I got back and everybodywent off, went home, I started
writing a piece about the trip and.
So I kind of, I didn't, this was myfirst attempt at writing anything.
And I had a friend at Essence and Isent the piece to my, my friends there,
(53:38):
and they said, we can publish it.
And I was like, you are kidding.
You know?
I didn't even believe it.
And so they did.
And it's a little, I, I read it now 'causeI, I still have a copy of it and it's a
little rough around the edges, but I dida rewrite on it and it's published again.
And the volume, a gathering ofvoices, which comes out of the
writing workshop that I ran herein my house for a few years.
(53:59):
So we produced a volume of short piecesby all the members of the workshop
and my p, one of my pieces is thatpiece about the trip up the coast.
What was some of the things that youlearned and gathered from that workshop?
Well, I, I had taken a classwith, uh, a workshop with a, a
writer whose name is Janet Fitch.
(54:22):
She wrote a book called White Olender,which was a huge, huge, huge hit.
And I, I had a, a friend whowas in her workshop, and this
is all after, in the heat of thenight, was, uh, was, uh, stopped.
So I had started writing on inthe Heat of the Night 'cause Carol
O'Connor gave me a shot to write.
(54:42):
So I did six episodes and then I thoughtby the, at the end of that I said, okay,
now I'm in the lane that I wanna be in.
I'm writing and I'm getting paid to write.
So then my friend told friend toldme about Janet Fitch's workshop.
So I went and, and auditioned by sendingher something that I was working on
and she accepted me in the workshop.
(55:03):
So Freshwater Road comes out ofthat workshop, every single word.
So it was, um, about a three and ahalf year writing, uh, period to get
that book done, to get it written, andwith a lot of good help from people
in the workshop because they were.
The, it was critical.
You had to present your work and youhad to accept the criticism, discuss
(55:27):
it, and then go back and do rewrites.
So when I started the workshophere, it was based on what I had
experienced in that workshop.
So I gathered five other people whowere interested in writing all, all
of people, people I knew before andmany, um, they were all working on one.
One project or another,uh, as writer is fledgling,
(55:49):
fledgling, or beginning writers.
So at the workshop I try to emulate whatJanet Fitch had done in that workshop,
which was so incredibly successful.
So I brought her teachings tothis group of people, and it has,
it has basic, very basic things.
(56:11):
One of the things that she used toteach, uh, and hammer into our bony
heads was writing the the senses.
You are a human being and you have fivesenses, and all those senses have to
be at play when you write a characterbecause they are human beings, and
that helps the reader feel and get toknow the character that you're writing.
(56:34):
Denise Nicholas, actress,activist, writer, and author
of Finding Home a memoir.
If you have questions, comments, orsuggestions as to future in black America,
ros, email us at In Black america@kut.org.
Also, let us know what radiostation you heard us over.
Don't forget to subscribe to ourpodcast and follow us on Facebook nx.
(56:58):
You can have previousprograms online@kut.org.
Also, you can listen to a specialcollection of In Black America
programs at American Archive of PublicBroadcasting as American archives.org.
The views and opinions expressedon this program are not necessary
those of this station or of theUniversity of Texas at Austin.
(57:21):
Until we have the opportunity again fora technical producer, David Alvarez.
I'm Johnelle Hansen, Jr. Thankyou for joining us today.
Please join us again next week.
Cd copies of this program areavailable and may be purchased
by writing in Black America.
CDs, KUT Radio 300 West Dean KeatonBoulevard, Austin, Texas 7 8 7 1 2.
(57:46):
That's in Black America.
CDs, KUT Radio 300 WestDean Keaton Boulevard.
Austin, Texas 7 8 7 1 2.
This has been a production of KUT radio.
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