#223 How To Get Promoted At Work w/Ben Townsend

Episode Transcript
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Brittany McCullough (00:00):
Welcome to the Scott Townsend Show brought
to you by Pizza man Productions.

Scott Townsend (00:08):
What did you have for breakfast?
Egg.

Ben Townsend (00:12):
Yep, yeah, I went with a two-egg setup this
morning.

Oh, two-egg setup.

Two eggs and some coffee.
Yeah, I'm trying to strip someof the carbs out of my diet.
Yeah.
So having going through thiswhole shoulder thing, you know,
sitting in a chair and not beingable to do my regular stuff,

(00:40):
not being able to do my workouts, all that kind of thing, right,
just packed on a few extrapounds, no big deal, but, uh,
time to lean it back out alittle bit.

So so today, yeah, I'm glad, glad you're here
.
So this is, yeah, ben townsend,executive producer, this kind
of towns show, and uh, we were,uh, I wanted to talk about.
Something came up at work theother day and so I wanted to get
your thoughts on it, and thatis there's a lot of young people
at work and some opportunitiesfor getting promoted came up.

(01:19):
There was some moving aroundpeople shuffling in positions.
It's kind of a domino effectperson moves over here, gets
promoted, so then that leaves avacancy here, which is going to
need a vacancy here, and blah,blah.
So it's a big chain reaction,you know.
And so, um, a lot of people putin for uh, promotions going

(01:43):
taking the next step, and I sawa lot of mistakes, for mistakes
just, uh, I'll call it mistakesuh, that people were executing,
going through uh, bad decisions,uh, not, not, not in a good
headspace, or, and so I you know, it's probably a good idea to

(02:07):
have an episode where we talkabout how to get promoted,
bottom line, I mean, there's allkinds.
Then we'll talk about it.
How do you get promoted?
What's the best way to getpromoted?
Is there only one way?
I don't know, but there was alot of people going about it a
lot of different ways, and Ithought you know what it's.

(02:27):
Obviously no one's talked tothese people about you know
protocol and the right way, soI'm going to throw this one over
to you.
First off is how does a personget promoted?
And so I've got 40 years in thebusiness.

(02:49):
I've seen a lot, experienced alot, I've made a lot of ton of
mistakes, a lot of ton ofmistakes, yeah.
And so I don't know why I'mtalking.
I just keep talking.
So I'm going to shut up rightnow and turn it over to you?

How do you get promoted?
Yeah, and, by the way, I thinkanother term for mistakes is
experience.

Yeah.

So you know, people want to hire people with
experience because it just meansthey made their mistakes on
somebody else's dime and sopresumably they're not likely to
commit it on your dime.
Somebody else's dime and sopresumably they're not likely to
commit it on your dime.
you know, when you hire somebodywith lots of experience people
basically who have already madethe obvious mistakes um, but I
think you know I think I thinkyour question about you know how

(03:34):
to get promoted is a good one,because I, I don't think it's as
cut and dried as it maybe wasat one time.
Um, you know, because I thinkthere's a there.
I think there's a a uh, verylarge context for this
discussion and I think part ofthat context is kind of like

(03:58):
what's going on in, you know, inthe political realm right now,
what the societal changes thatwe're going through.
If you, if you go on to, forexample, fidelity or, you know,
vanguard, and I think this ischanging, and I, I was on, you

(04:22):
know, you're you're like, hey,let's do, I want to do, let's do
a podcast and I want to do iton um, on how to get promoted,
right, so we just had thisconversation right.
So like I don't have anythingwritten down, you know to uh, or
or really much prep, but I wasyeah, this is off the cuff, yeah
yeah.
So right before this call I wastrying to get back on fidelity
because I've seen beforeresearching companies, you know,

(04:46):
and these companies have whatthey call an ESG score.
So it's environmental, socialgovernance and it's how well
companies are conforming to thesocial change that's being
pushed by people.
You know, investment firms bypeople.

(05:07):
You know investment firms, Ithink famously or infamously,
you know, blackrock and larryfink have kind of been front and
center as in pushing this esgscore for companies.
It basically says how well areyou doing with your diversity
hires, one way to think about itand I'm not an expert in it,
but I know something, somethingabout it and I know that you
know, for companies, executiveswithin companies, they're scored

(05:33):
on, they have their ownscorecard, like when you're,
whether you're at executivelevel in a company, you have a
scorecard and you have to hit,you know, certain measures for
whatever's important to yourcompany Reduce cost, increase
revenue, grow the talent, allkinds of things like that and a

(05:53):
lot of those are very, veryproductive.
Those are good things and youshould be scored on that in my
mind.
But there's also this wholepush for ESG and DEI.

What's ESG stand for?

environmental social governance oh, you said
that okay yeah, uh, and sothat's kind of at a high like an
investment level.
You know when you're, whenyou're researching fun.
I just pulled up real quickconoco phillips, just uh, I
don't know why their, theirstock symbol, came top of mind.
Cop, I just pulled it up realquick.

(06:27):
And on Fidelity, and I didn'tsee the ESG score and it was
pretty ubiquitous like severalmonths ago.
You go on there and it's kindof irritating to me because I
don't think it has anythingwhatsoever to do with the
success of a company, with thesuccess of a company.
And I think the more complexthe industry you know, the more

(06:55):
ESG initiatives when you haveESG or DEI initiatives over
competency and merit the morecomplex the industry, the
quicker it's going to show up,because you can't fake being an
engineer, you can't fake beingan accountant, you can't fake
being a rocket scientist.
You either have those skills,airline pilot, airline pilot,

(07:17):
aeronautical engineer you eitherhave those skills.

Surgeon.

Or surgeon or you don't.
You either have them or youdon't, and I don't.
You know you either have themor you don't.
Um, and I don't know about you,but if I'm going in for a brain
surgery, I'd prefer to have theguy at the top of his class
rather than the guy who justkind of squeaked by because, uh,
you know, somebody at theschool had a quota to fill for,

(07:44):
fill in the blank, xyz.
That's what you know.
That's why I think, uh, and it'spretty well believed that this
is the problem that boeing hasspecifically, is that you know
that they've been promotingpeople based on something other
than a meritocracy, just to putit that way, like very simply,
and I think that's worked itsway through industry and I think

(08:06):
it's gotten pretty intense overthe last decade, and I think a
lot of people you know who arein management positions,
executive management positions,have kind of cut their teeth on
their commitment to these whatthey call kind of like this I'll

(08:28):
just call the DEI initiativeand so how to get promoted.
So there's big change happeningright now that everybody can
see is very visible at thegovernment level and they're
stripping this kind of thing outof the governmental process.

So how can you argue with being diverse?
How can you argue againstdiversity?

How can you argue against it?

Yeah.

I don't think the argument is against diversity.
I think the the argument isthat is is what they term equity
, and equity is not equalopportunity.
Equity, in their mind, amountsto equal outcome.
And so if you don't have thethe right number of people, you

(09:18):
know, with a certain diversityprofile, then you have to
promote people, regardless ofwhether they have the merit or
not, into those positions, andand so I think it's morally
wrong to do that.
That's my position.
It's morally wrong because Ithink what you should do is give

(09:39):
people the opportunity tocompete for whatever job or
education or whatever, so equalopportunity is a good thing,
equal opportunity our doors open.

Anybody can apply.
That's good, right and but thebut.
The problem is the equal.
What'd you say?

outcome, equal outcome yeah that's where it
gets sticky equal opportunity, Ithink, puts you right in the
center of your moral obligationthat's what I believe sure, I
believe everybody give everybodya chance give.
Give everybody a chance, giveeverybody an equal chance.
Yeah, you don't care if theyhave a fill-in-the-blank

(10:21):
minority profile or whetherthey're a straight white male,
right.
You know, we've kind of been atthe bottom of the the
disaffected pyramid, um, and youcan skip.
You know, if you, if you wantto be something else, you can,
you can, you can change yourdiversity profile and you can.
You know, kind of, uh, you can,um, declare that you're now

(10:43):
homosexual or transgender andkind of skip right to the top.
So there's a little bit of agame going on with it, and I'm
not making a judgment on whetheror not somebody should do that.
I mean, I have my own personalbeliefs, but I also believe that
you know, with a, if you'retrying, if you're running a
company, you've got to justaccept the fact that there's
people of all different stripesout there and you need to give

(11:05):
everybody an equal shot.
And this is why I think it's sotragic.
You know that the failure ofpublic schools, the failure of
public schools, it tends to beworse in minority populations.
If they don't have the sameaccess to quality education in
these minority communities, thenin the end they're not going to
have the same kind of access tocompete for jobs, and not

(11:27):
because people won't want tointerview them, but
fundamentally, do they have theeducation they need to succeed
in a high paying job?
And so I think it's a realdisservice of our government not
to have more focus on goodquality education.
You know, I think the unitedstates is falling behind in um.

(11:52):
You know the the stem pursuitsum, and so you don't have as
many engineers or doctors umthings like that.

So but it seems like they're all fooling around
with peripheral issues and notthe core.
They're all distracted.
It seems like the schoolsystems are distracted with
these peripheral I don't knowhow to say it initiatives,
instead of just reading writingarithmetic, you know the good

(12:27):
old basics.
We're fooling around withquestions that, okay, drag queen
reading libraries, you know,and trying to promote gender
this or gender that or not, thisor not, that Stuff that, when
we were growing up, wasn't evenI mean, it was not within a

(12:50):
million miles of what you knowwhere we were.
So we get so caught up andpeople start arguing about it,
and then you start gettingpeople mad and and it's just
this huge distraction.
Hey, how about if we get backto reading writing arithmetic,
you know?

yeah, I think there's a huge consensus on what
makes sense, but the people whoare pulling the levers, um, are
cutting, you know, in adifferent direction and not
going with where where americansreally are with their consensus
, and that's what all thechanges we're seeing now.
But you know.
Back back to how to how to getpromoted yeah well, I mean it is

(13:30):
, it is part of it but.
I don't want to get off on arabbit trail but, but my point
to all that is this change ishappening pretty quickly right
now at the government level andgovernment and regulation has
has driven the companies inamerica who are subject to
governmental regulation.

(13:51):
It has driven them to to, youknow, kind of have get in line
with certain uh behaviors, let'sput it that way.
And so you have lots of peoplein those companies who have cut
their teeth, like I said, ingrowing their careers, you know,
aligned with these things.

(14:13):
And you know some of them arejust doing it because that's
what's required of them andthey're in their executive
position kind of creates a moraldilemma for them.
They're going to decide am Igoing to compromise my own kind
of sense of morality and dothese things, or am I going to,

(14:34):
you know, go somewhere else?
You know that may be adifferent company or somebody
who kind of had those moralbeliefs where you have more
alignment there.
So it's going to take a whileit's happening at the government

(14:55):
level.
It's going to take a while inindustry for this to ripple
through industry.
And I say that and I think itcould take a while.
Some places are very resistant.
Costco is kind of famously veryresistant right now to changing
their position on these things,even though their board is just
think it will, and I hope so.

(15:16):
But if you're a person I'll justsay this who is a visible

(15:38):
minority, then I think you'reokay.
If, visibly, somebody can lookat you and say you're a minority
, whatever that means, then Ithink you're probably okay,
regardless of where you are.
If you're a person who's notvisibly a minority, then I think
, in order to get promoted, Ithink you have to do an honest
assessment of where yourleadership is in your company,
because leadership is everythingand that's what's going to
drive whether or not you're onequal footing with other people

(16:01):
to get the promotion you wantand to progress in your career,
on equal footing with otherpeople to get the promotion you
want and to progress in yourcareer.
And so for some people it maymean doing that kind of honest
assessment and if, if yourcompany looks like it's coming
around or is aligned, you know,with the creating environment
where you actually can succeed,and that's great, stick with it.
If not, I really think peopleshould consider going somewhere

(16:24):
else where they are more inalignment with leadership,
because otherwise you can putall your effort into getting
promoted and have it all be fornaught because things just kind
of aren't going your way.
Things aren't just kind ofaren't going your way and you

(16:47):
know the executive of your, ofyour company, don't value those
things as much as they valueother things that you don't
happen to possess, you know.
So I think you got to considerwhether or not the company where
you are is is a company whereyou can flourish, and if it's
not, for whatever reason and I'mjust saying this has kind of
been this, this whole deicontext but it's a huge social

(17:08):
governmental shift right now.
It's going on and it leadsright into the question you're
asking.
So I would say, like, right offthe top, I think that kind of
assessment, if you want to getpromoted, is is an is an
important.
I believe we're returning tomeritocracy and I think that's
really really good for businessand I think it's really really

(17:29):
good for individuals, right, whowant to succeed in life Well
and who who put in the reps whohave put in the reps, who have
put put in the mental gymnasticsto master or be extremely

(17:50):
proficient in a skill orsomething Right, and not just
because I'm an Indian, americanIndian Right.

Yeah, so it doesn't take any skill to do
that.

No.
So how to get promoted?
I think number one.
I had a white-collar job.
I was a product manager for abig data platform.
It was very technical, it waspretty intense and I loved it.
I loved it, man, I loved thebusiness, I love the subject

(18:24):
matter and I loved buildinggreat products for my customers
information products it was.
It was great, um, but if you're, if you're in the information
space, for example, make surethat you know you, you have, you
possess the skills, not for thelevel that you're in, just for
the level that you're in, yes,but you have to possess the

(18:44):
skills for the level you aspireto, the level to which you
aspire, and so skills areextremely important.
That gets into education.
That gets into education.
But once you have the basiceducation, the degree, you know,
the wallpaper that says I am awhatever, and keep those skills

(19:07):
up and keep, keep them fresh andalways invest in yourself.
Yeah, just continue to invest inyourself.
A lot of it you can benefitfrom, like on the job training,
once you have the, the degree.
Get in there and learn yourcompany's implementation of
technology, for example.
This is the right it's just atechnology context, but fill in
the blank with whatever else,and I think that's that's hugely

(19:30):
important, because it gives youthe foundation, the building,
the number one foundationalbuilding block on which you can
build a successful career.
And then beyond that, you know,it's kind of like it kind of
gets into some things that Iguess are maybe like soft skills
, but, man, you know, just showup and be on time, don't, don't

(19:56):
come in late, you know yeah,that's the number yeah that's.

I see that so often, uh, right now, and it's
amazing to me that, uh, peopledon't get.
They want to be promoted andthey want to be the leader, but
they can't show up on time,right?
So what's that all about, youknow, if you don't have the
discipline to to figure out andthis goes back to problem

(20:21):
solving too the problem is, Igot to get to work at eight, so
how do I do that?
Well, you set your alarm clockfor whatever, but if you can't
figure that out and you'realways late, number one you
can't solve.
That tells me you aren't verygood at solving problems.
And number two you solve.
That tells me you aren't verygood at solving problems.
And number two you'redisrespecting yourself, you're

(20:42):
disrespecting your team, you'redisrespecting your boss, and and
then they wonder why they don'tget promoted.
You know, why didn't I get thejob?
Well, you know, basicallynumber one.
You just keep showing up likeyou.
Just you're give a crap.
Meters flat on zero, seems like.
So don't don't be gettingsurprised.
Don't be surprised if theydon't pick you, if you can't get

(21:03):
that's employment 101.
Yeah, it's pretty fundamentaland Scott Turner talked about it
on our podcast not too long agoabout the importance of being
on time.
I'll put that in the show notesso you guys can listen to that
later.
But anyway, yeah, yeah.

Beyond time is a huge one.
Be on time because it shows,like you said, it's just basic
respect and truly, when I saybasic respect, I'm talking basic
, basic respect.
Yeah, and you know, if you, ifyou, if you aspire to leadership
and you're running you, let'ssay you're a software engineer
and you're making $150,000 ayear and you want to get

(21:45):
promoted, you know, to be a, a,a, a director man, next level,
whatever that next manager levelis in your company, and you're
going to manage a team ofsoftware engineers at $150,000
an hour A year, so huh000 anhour A year.
So huh, I mean a year.
Yeah, if you figure, ifeverybody on your team is 15

(22:06):
minutes late and I can't do thequick math here, but you know,
and you got 15 members on theteam you know you have an
off-the-top $500 loss inproductivity every single day,
right off the top, and so ifyour habit is being late, you

(22:27):
just need to understand thatdoes not scale well to
leadership, because when you'rein leadership, those kind of
things matter.
Productivity matters hugely.
And so people aren't justsaying you know, be on time,
because they're just, you knowthe old guy and they just, why
don't they get?
So their panties in a wad over,you know, coming in on time,

(22:48):
right?
Well, it's because those kindsof things.
Companies exist, you know, tomake money for their
stockholders or their owners,whoever, and the people that are
there just need to possess thatvery basic level of respect.
And if you want to get promoted, these are the kinds of things
that people look for.
Do you, do you have the basicleadership skill?
You know you can't.

(23:09):
You can't come in late everyday and then get into leadership
and then show up and be, youknow, real hard nosed about
trying to get people to come inon time.
People are going to look at youfor what you are and kind of a
fraud, you know, a hypocrite,and that doesn't scale.
Well, people, you know people,people don't.
They won't be on that program.

(23:30):
So that's, that's a basic one.

So how much?
How many people did you sayshow up, okay, and you're in
your uh, you got 15 people, 15people, so that's uh, I was
doing the math here while youwere going on and so that's uh.
Let me see one okay, that'sgonna be.

That's a one 15 people, 15 minutes divided by 60
minutes that $19 every minute.

So if they're, oh, I'm sorry.
The other thing you need to dois start with your math skills.

I'm 15.

That's $292.
You just almost $300 that youjust pissed out the window.
If you have 15 people showingup 15 minutes late.

Right and you hadn't started the day and you
hadn't even started the top offthe top.
It's just that, that loss inproductivity every single day,
yeah, so there you go.
Wow, and you know a lot, alongwith showing up on time if
you're running a meeting.
I think communication skillsare really, really important
because, in the end,communication, leadership is all
about communication.
It's my ability as a leader tocommunicate what the goals are

(24:55):
of what it is.
We're trying to accomplishwhatever that is and motivate
people to help you accomplishthat goal.
That's what it is.
We're trying to accomplishwhatever that is and motivate
people to help you accomplishthat goal.
That's what leadership is.

What do you think about Go ahead?

I was just saying you have to work on your
leadership skills, work on yourspeaking skills.
Those kind of things are reallyimportant, because your ability
to communicate is directlyrelated to your ability to lead.

Ghostmasters is a good place to learn
communication skills, speakingskills.

Yeah, and another thing organization when you show
up to a meeting.
If you're running the meeting,it is amazing to me the number
of people that have a meetingand they do not show up with an
agenda, they don't publish anagenda, they don't show up with
a specific agenda and they justkind of hop into something and
are we going to accomplishanything today?
I don't know, we'll see wherethis conversation goes.

(25:46):
Maybe we will, maybe we won't,but it's amazing to me.
So, if you're setting up ameeting, invite the people you
want to invite.
Don't invite too many people.
Invite the key people, thepeople that need to be there.
Invite them ahead of themeeting.
Publish the agenda when you getinto the meeting.
Stick to the agenda.
Start on time, end on time.

(26:07):
This again, this is the kind oflike basic respect, because
people are going on to theirnext meeting.
After they, they leave yoursmost likely.
Right and there's no.
You know, if your meetingstarts at one and ends at two
and the next meeting thatsomebody's going to their
meeting starts at two and endsat three, there's zero time
between two o'clock the end ofmy meeting, and two o'clock to

(26:29):
start the next meeting.
So it's so hard to shift gearsyeah, and you got to think about
ending your meeting fiveminutes early.
Depending on how big yourbuilding is, if it's next door,
it's not a big deal.
I worked in a building that wasa half a mile long, so it could
be that I have a 10-minute walk.
I'm not kidding.

To get to where I'm going next, or 15 minutes.

So you've got to think about those things,
depending on what size you'rebuilding, but those kind of
things basic organization andtime management skills, I think,
are very, very important.
Of course, again, all this ison a foundation of competency
and you possess the skills ofthe job you currently have, and
if you aspire leadership, youhave to have the skills of the

(27:14):
job you want as well.
If you don't have them, that'sokay, go get them.
Work with your manager and andor director or whoever you
report to, and they it's amazing.
You know people as as a leadermyself.
If people came to me and wantedto know and this did happen who
come to me, and they would beasking what kind of skills they

(27:36):
need to get to the next level.
And that's music to my ears,and so it tells me that they're
on your program.
They recognize you as a leaderand they want to make sure that
they align so they canaccomplish organizational goals.
That's a great team player ifyou've got somebody like that.
If you want to impress the heckout of your boss, go to them.

(27:56):
Those kind of conversations Notsaying so when am I going to
get promoted?
And ask them, tell them where,where you would like to go, and
ask them what kind of gaps, ifany, that they can recognize
that you should be working on sothat you can get to that next
level and then take the feedback.

Don't get defensive you know, don't get
offended.
So it's like going to ben,going, hey ben, I really want to
get promoted.
You know, I'm really good atwhat I do.
I'm really chomping at the bitto get promoted here.
So, you know, can you tell meabout how to get promoted,
because I'm really excited, youknow, and about this new

(28:37):
opportunity and I think I do areally great job and, um, versus
hey ben, uh, hey, mr townsend,is there anything I can do to
take some stuff off your plate?
Is there?
Uh, I've got all my job, I'vegot all my tasks finished.
Is there anything else that youwould like me to do?
Or I got a project that youneed help with that I can help

(29:00):
you out with.
There you go Instead of me, me,me, me, me, me.
How can I help you?
How can I help the team Team?
Team team.

Yep, and you'll notice all these things are all
in alignment with making yourboss successful.
If you go in every day with thegoal of making your boss
successful and this is just thisisn't just about butt kissing,
this is about respecting yourleader's role in the company and
they're they're trying toaccomplish something.

(29:29):
And if they got 15 people ontheir team with 15 different
ideas about how we're going toget from A to B, it's fine to
have the ideas, but at the endof the day, you have to be able
to.
It's like watching the SuperBowl when the quarterback goes
up and snaps the huddle.
He's called the play.
Now everybody's got theirassignment on that particular

(29:51):
play.
If it's at Very specific.
The quarterback's going to getthe ball, the receiver's going
to run down the field, theoffensive linemen are going to
be in pass blocking, all thosekind of things.
But if you call the huddle passplay and as the tackle's
running up to the line and hegoes, I don't want to do a pass.
I'm going to do run blocking.

I'm going to go try to clear up the line.

I got an idea, yeah, and the tight end says no,
no, no, I don't want to go outfor a pass this time.
I think I'm going to go helpblock down on the line somewhere
, as if we're running a runaround the end or whatever.
Everybody has their differentideas.
It's obviously not going towork.
That's the way it is in acompany.

Brittany McCullough (30:35):
Thank you for joining me.
Scott Townsend Show.
We'll be back right after this.

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You know you have an obligation out of respect for
your boss and his position,whether you agree with him or
not.

um to close on the vision that he creates
Because you, you are hopingwe're just assuming right now
that you're wanting to be inthat position at some point, and
so you know it's like treatother people the way you would
like to be treated.
If you're going to be in thatposition, wouldn't you want a

(31:48):
team that helps make your jobeasier?
Wouldn't you want your team tosay hey, ben wants us to attain
number 10 and we get to 10?
Awesome, that's what you want,you know that's what you want.

So all these things align to to making your
boss look good, perform well,and again, this isn't it could
be about butt kissing, butseeing plenty of that too people
.
But people who just see it thatway, I think are missing the
boat and and an excuse.
You know, yeah, they really dohave, they really are.

(32:26):
You know, if your leadership,if you're under bad leadership,
you can't win, and this, this isuh, this is a hard lesson to
learn from a guy who's been inthe trenches, you know.
And so if that's the case, thenyou need to go find the
leadership that you can workunder that you basically respect

(32:46):
.
So if you're under patently badleadership, be honest with
yourself.
Don't just explain away yourown problems on somebody else's
inability.

But what about telling?
Somebody here's how you getpromoted Go above and beyond, do
more than what's expected, takeinitiative on projects and look
for ways to add value.
Sounds good.
How do you do that?
How do you go above and beyond?
What does that mean?
Do I need to stay two hourspast my shift, do I?

(33:24):
What's that look like?

Yeah, I mean for me.
You know, I would, I would, Iwould literally go to my boss.
It's not that I didn't haveenough to do, I just love to
solve problems.
I love to solve problems withinmy discipline and I don't care
what the problem is or whetheror not somebody thinks think it
can be done, because it canalways be done and it can always

(33:47):
be done better.

Right and sometimes.

sometimes it's a it's a matter of do I have
enough budget, you know, to doit, because I'm going to need X,
y, z.
I mean, I'm going to need thisother skill set I don't have
right now on the team and thatskill sets are people are
expensive, especially when youget into, you know it's kind of
higher skilled disciplines.

Expertise.

But it may be that you know you have a solution,
you've identified a solution andyou have something you know
that you've been able to kind ofsolve and you have a plan to
get there.
You have clear path and youmake a proposal and it's just
too expensive and that's fine,you know.
But you can present that andsay, well, here's, here's how we
can, you know, solve this thingand here's, here's what the

(34:30):
cost is going to be, and presentthat to the management team and
it may or may not be worth itto them to spend that.
But if you go in trying tosolve a problem, a lot of times
you can do it without spendingmoney.
It's really about changing thepriority of work and things like
that.
That's another hard thing.

Maybe your solution saves money.

Yeah, yeah, Hopefully it should.
I mean anything you're workingon.
If it's not increasingproductivity, then you really
shouldn't be doing it.
Meaning setting costs, bringingin additional revenue, bringing
in additional value.
If it's not doing those things,then you really shouldn't be
doing it.
I would tell them.

(35:14):
If you have a problem that youdon't have time to work on, or
whatever problem you have, justgive it to me, I'll take care of
it.
You know, and so, and sometimesyou know they they a lot of
times.
It's amazing how many timesthey they wouldn't do that,
because I think that you knowthey also don't want to be shown
up you know.
so you have the kind of thepeople thing too, but I love

(35:36):
solving problems and, you know,I kind of made it kind of a
career for myself out of findingways to do things that
everybody else said couldn't bedone right.

I love that.
Yeah, I love people tell me youcan't do that after I just did
it.
Yeah, yeah, what do you mean?

I just did it I also have people as a leader.
People would come up to me andthey, they would come to me with
problems and I would listen totheir problem and say, okay,
well, what do you propose?
A solution.
And a lot of times, the thefirst few times, I would get

(36:18):
like a blank stare because theydidn't.
They didn't come to me.
It's fine, and I think youshould come to your leader with
with problems, but never, evergo to your leader with a problem
that you don't have a proposalfor a solution right, that's
right, but you get the idea,yeah so go go with the problem

(36:41):
and say and here's what Irecommend, what do you think?
now you know your leader seesthat you're.
You're not just bringingproblems, you're not just being
a sneaky wheel.

It's a serious problem, yeah you're in the end.

You're trying to help him accomplish what he's
tasked you with doing.
Here's something I found.
Here's what I recommend.
Do you agree?
Do we want to try this or doyou have some kind of other?
That's the ultimate in respect,and that that's the ultimate in
um showing your leader that youare capable yourself of leading

(37:14):
yeah, it's you know, yourleader already has enough
problems.

I mean they have problems, they, they, they wake
up and they've got problems.
And so who are you to go?
Uh, I got this problem.
See you later, gee.
Thanks, I needed another one ofthose.
No, it'd be so much better.
Yeah, just like you said,here's a problem, but I got a

(37:41):
solution.
I think it might work.

Here's my recommendation.
Here's my recommendation,whether you like it or not.
Yep, and then let thediscussion go.
It may be a greatrecommendation.
Your leader may find an evenbetter approach, but that's okay
, as long as you have made aserious effort to come with a
recommendation that you reallythink is going to make things
better, given this problem, andyou want to have a discussion.

(38:06):
You've cleared the hurdle andnow you have a discussion with
somebody who is engaged with youin problem solving, and that
that, to me, is a fun process.
Right, it is.

Brainstorming and going back and forth.
You know your solution mightnot be 100%, but a part of it
might be what helps get to thesolution, you know.
So just even the smallest partof your suggestion might be the
catalyst that helps find asolution.

(38:42):
So that's really cool, yeah.
Whether they adopt itwholeheartedly or at certain
aspects of your recommendationhave merit.
What to them?
To let them know, becausethat's your job, which is number
two, and that was to be aproblem solver.
That was one of my other uh,ways to get promoted is and

(39:05):
we've just now talked about itbe a problem solver.

Practice being a problem solver, so we can skip
that one yeah, and hopefully youhave enough autonomy in your
job to problem solve in line,you know, right, in line with
the problem.
You have the autonomy to problemsolve, hopefully, like, but if
you don't have that, or you youhave that and you hit a problem,

(39:31):
it kind of is kind of like anext level problem where you
have the autonomy, but youreally are kind of like churning
on the best approach.
You know, take those to your hit, those to your boss, along with
your recommendation of how youthink you should proceed and see

(39:52):
what they say.
But but at that point, like forme, when I, when I first
started this, my team would cometo me with problems, and they
wouldn't come with very few,would come with a recommendation
for how to go forward.
Then I would just tell them youknow kind of like what my
expectations were when you cometo me with a problem, come also
with a recommendation, you know,because I want you to have
thought through this so we canhave a more productive

(40:12):
discussion.
And so it wasn't very long atall to where people, if they had
some sort of problem doing ourone-on-ones, they would come
with a recommendation, and itwas just the way we did things
from that point forward.
It doesn't have to beconfrontational.

Right.

It shouldn't be confrontational, it shouldn't
cause stress, right, it justrequires you, as a leader, to be
purposeful, so you can dosomething like this when they
come up and say, hey, I got aproblem.

Instead of just dropping it on their desk, the
leader goes so do you have anysuggestions on how to solve this
problem?
No, not really.
Okay, well, here, take thisback and think about it and when
you have something that youthink you can recommend, let me
know.
After a couple of times of that, then they're going to learn to

(41:09):
get this out of my hands.
I got to come up with asolution because he's just going
to kick it right back to me.

Yeah, and as a leader, this is how you develop.
This is one way you developtalent.
You get your people on yourteam to be thinking like a
leader, not thinking like afollower, and that is a big
component.
I believe in developing talent.
There's other things for sure,but that's one.

The next thing develop a strong work ethic.

Yeah, yeah, I think, along with being
competent, having the skill set,it gets boring to do the same
thing over and over again.
And it's just amazing to methat that's some people's
comfort zone.
They just want to do the samething over and over again.
And it's just amazing to methat that's some people's
comfort zone.
They just want to do the samething over and over again just
because it's easy and they don'thave to think.
And I sent you that, that videothe other day about the guy who

(42:09):
said something about you knowyou can be.
We have a very short time onthis earth and you can.
You can either waste it, beingviciously mediocre or show the
fuck up.

I'll probably bleep that out, Cause mom
wouldn't like that but that'swhat he said.

So that is a quote , and I can't tell you how much
that quote resonates with me.
Yeah, I can't stand mediocrity.
I can't tell you how much thatquote resonates with me.

Yeah, I know I can't stand mediocrity.

I can't, and and for me personally, I will.
I want to have child.
I want to have a hill toconquer.

Yeah, yeah, it's fine.

I don't want a charted course necessarily Right
.

I know it's fun to be a pioneer.

Yeah, right, I know it's fun to be a pioneer,
yeah, especially when you're asubject matter expert and
there's really nobody I don'twant this to sound the wrong way
there's really nobody who cantell you a lot more about all
the inputs to a decision.
When you're a subject matterexpert Doesn't mean that you
shouldn't take advice from otherpeople and seek other people's
opinions and blah, blah, blah.
But it just means that if youreally are a subject matter
expert, opinions and blah, blah,blah.

(43:20):
But it just means that if youreally are a subject matter
expert and you get turned looseon a decision to solve a problem
in your area of subject matterexpertise, that's like gold man.
That's like if you just giveyour work meaning and and that's
where you really start to beable to add value- I'm going to
add the link in the show notesto that video that you sent to

(43:40):
me, okay it's a good one.
Yeah, the opening comment therehas a little bit of uh, a bit of
uh spicy language, but afterthat, you know, it's kind of a
goosebumps kind of thing youwatch it it's motivational and I
love that kind of thing there'snothing like, you know, develop
a strong work ethic, that'syeah.

And there's nothing to me, there's nothing
like working with the team, whenthey work hard and they work
well.
I was at denver one time at aconference and we I'm not gonna
go into all details, but therewas a lot of work to be done in
a very short amount of time andeverybody pitched in.

(44:26):
Everybody did their thing.
They were hustling, they weremoving, everybody knew what they
had to do and they were gettingit done.
We got it done and I remembergetting in the car I was riding
with someone they were drivingI'm sitting on the passenger
side and it was just soexhilarating being the leader of
that team and everybodyperformed.

(44:48):
We had to.
I mean, there was somebody else, there was another group come
in right behind us taking over.
We were at the Rocky Stadium,so there was another group
coming in to do their conference, you know, and so we had to
beat all of our stuff out ofthere and it just felt so.
It's just so awesome to be apart of a team that executes

(45:09):
well and is willing to work hardto meet the goal that was.
That's just cool.
That's just cool to me yeah,yeah next step is master.
I would recommend master yourcurrent role, which to me means
stay in your lane.

(45:29):
Uh, don't be looking over thefence at someone else's
department.
Don't be trying to tellsomebody how they should be
doing their.
You know, this is how I woulddo it.
Just master what you're doing,perfect what you're doing.
Um, just keep your eyes forward, stay in your lane, do your job

(45:51):
and figure out how to do itWell, because people are going
to see it and they're going towant you.
They're going to want to be apart of of that.
They're going to want you to bea part of their team, because
if you can do it for them, thenyou can do it for me.
What do you think?

no, I, I agree and I mean we kind, of you know,
talked about that with witheducation and getting in and
learning everything about yourrole and being performant in
that role and if you want to, ifyou want a promotion this is
really important for people tohear If you want a promotion,
you have to be performing at thelevel of the position you want,

(46:28):
not just at the one youcurrently occupy.
So you have to be showing towhatever degree possible.
You need to be showing abilityat the level of the role that
you are seeking and beperformant at that level before
you expect a promotion and I amyou know so I think it's really

(46:49):
important and getting your,getting your boss.
I had a woman, young woman, onetime on my team and well, she
had high expectations.
I hired her from outside thecompany this wasn't an internal
company, but I hired her fromoutside the company and she
wanted to be, you know, theexecutive manager for the entire

(47:12):
department in the first threemonths, you know, and she was
just kind of fresh out of school, I mean.
Her expectations were high, andso she was telling me that, how
long, when am I going topromote a blah blah?
And so I had like, okay, soslow down here, slow down.
There's lots of people who wanta promotion and the reality is,

(47:32):
no matter what people tell you,you have a, you you're usually
working within a limited budget,your leader's working within a
limited budget and they can'tgive everybody the kind of raise
they think they deserve andthey may be deserving of it, but
in the end it's kind of aforced ranking kind of thing,
regardless of what they say.
That's really what's going on.
And so you have to find a wayto stand out, way to stand out,

(48:01):
and but as a leader and this iswhat you should be looking for
from your leader you need toknow what kind of you need.
You need a development plan.
You can.
It'd be a great idea torecommend a development plan to
your, to your leader, to saythis is what I think I need in
terms of a development plan.
These are the kind of things Ithink I have to get me from
where I am to where I want to be.
What do you think and whatwould you say, now that you've

(48:24):
kind of seen all this, whatwould be your recommendation for
my development plan?
What do I need to do?
What do you need to see beforeyou think I would be ready for
my next role?

It's a very mature question.
It's a very confident question.
It shows confidence.
It shows maturity Because youknow one of the goals, one of
the other things I wrote downhere how to get promoted is
express your career goals.
That's exactly what you'retalking about and build strong
relationships.

(48:58):
So you can't build strongrelationships If you go in, like
you said, coming in gunsblazing, and just you know
powder burns everywhere Causeyou're just firing as fast as
you can, as hot as you can, andjust you know everybody's, like
I said, leaving work every daywith powder burns all over them
because you, you're just comingon so strong and so hard.

I've seen that happen yeah, by the way, for
that that young woman you know,we worked on a development plan
and she took it to heart and sheworked on her development plan
and I agreed to give her somethings would help her to
demonstrate her progress in thatrole.
And before I left that area Ican't remember where I hired her

(49:46):
in, but before I left that areashe had promoted.
I promoted her twice into asenior role and so that that was
.
It was great success becauseshe had high expectations.
It's funny because she cameback actually years after I left
, three years after I left thatarea.
She had gone to Houston and shecame back in this area and she

(50:10):
set up a coffee with me.
I went and talked to her and shejust basically told me that she
, she, she was recounting thatconversation and saying how
pivotal that was for her andkind of understanding how, how

(50:30):
the process works and how toapproach people and how to grow
her career because she had goneon.
She was a lead by that point.
So that that was not.
I don't.
She was a lead by that point,so that that was not.
I don't have tons of storieslike that one.
I have several and I'm nottrying to pat myself on the back
, but that to me as as a leader,those that, those are some of

(50:50):
my proudest moments as a leaderyou know, building and and and.
Helping people to succeed intheir careers because you should
, you, oh yeah.
And helping people to succeedin their careers.
Because you should be doing thatand you should be thinking
about.
You should be having adiscussion as a leader with your
people about what their goalsare, where they want to go,

(51:11):
because it may be that theirgoals have nothing to do with
anything you have to offer inyour department.
They may be working there justbiding time because they really
want to be an aircraft mechanic,whatever, and you're just in
the blank, so, but you shouldhelp them go there as well,
because that's what they reallywant to do, that really is their
passion, really what they wantto do.
Then they need to go, do thatand you need to backfill that
person with somebody who reallywants to work with them and the

(51:33):
disciplines that you manage onyour team, and then everybody's
happier.
And it's not a well, I got tofind a way to get rid of you.
That's not it.
It's about helping peoplesucceed with wherever they are
and where they want to go next.
If you do that effectively,you'll have a higher and higher
concentration of talent on yourteam that's highly motivated,

(51:54):
wants to be there and is looking, and everybody is performing in
a way to get to the level wherethey want to be, and then you
have a high-performing team.
That's what everybody wants.

Ken Rusk said that very thing in his book Blue
Collar Cash, and he's also beenon the podcast.
He said he'll take hisemployees and ask him what are
your goals?
You know, what do you want inlife?
What are you looking forward to?
Um, I want to go to college, orI want to buy a house, or I

(52:28):
need a new car, uh, whateverGood, okay, uh, I'm going to try
to help you get there.
You know you're, you'reworking're working for us now
and, uh, we're going to writeyour goal up here on the wall
and every once in a while, I'mgoing to ask you you know, so
how's?
it going, getting that, you knowgetting that car.

(52:48):
Or, uh, have you got?
You know how is it saving forcollege, or how's the college
search going, or you know justjust anything I can do to help
you get there you know, yeah andI really thought that was
really great.

So, yeah, that's a great point you just made, as
you well know yeah, one otherthing I would say is just like
when I, when I, when I was, whenI was in a leadership position,
when I first got to aleadership position, I was not.

(53:25):
I can speak well, I can write, Ithink very well yeah but when I
, when I first got my leadershipposition, I was not a confident
speaker.
I was not a confident speakerand it was a gap for me.
And so you know, I um, I joinedToastmasters and you referred

(53:46):
to that.

I went to a meeting with you one time.
That's right, that was cool.

Yeah, it can be fun.
You know, these are allprocesses and like a guy told me
you know this guy he was, um,he was in very advanced stages
of failing health, very advanced, and one of the things that he
he told me this is not inrelation to work, just life
doing things right you never,you never stop wanting the next

(54:15):
thing.
You know you never.
When you're, when you're, uh,when you're a kid, you want, you
want to get your bicycle.
When you get the bicycle, youwant to get your car.
You want to graduate.
You can't wait till yougraduate high school.
You can't wait till you get inthe college that you want.
You can't wait to finally getyour degree.
You can't wait to get your job.
You can't wait to get married.
You can't wait to have a child,can't wait to buy a house.

(54:37):
This guy is in his 80s and thatprocess never, ever stops.
They, the, the objects justchange.
I can't wait to sell my houseso I can move into assisted
living.
I can't wait to get you know.
Uh, I want to take this trip,whatever it never, ever ends in
your lifetime, ever.
So.

(54:58):
I think that's somethingimportant to think about.
You know, as you're young,because one of the I think one
of the keys to having you knowjoy in your life, with what,
what you're doing, with,whatever level you're at, is
enjoying the process.
So that was a big takeaway forme and it's like right now I'm
rehabbing my shoulder cause Ihave rotator cuff surgery and

(55:20):
I'm enjoying the process ofrehabbing my shoulder.
It's painful, it's frustrating,but I am.
I am enjoying the process.
So I'm putting my money wheremy mouth mouth is and I'm
enjoying the process.
We're building a home right nowstill in this little apartment,
which we are very grateful for,but we're building a home right
now and they're out therepainting right now and we're

(55:42):
really looking forward to movinginto our house and there's
nothing wrong with that.
But you have to find a way toenjoy a process, even like
building a home and people,you'll hear more horror stories
than any other kind of storyabout building a house, horror
stories than any other kind ofstory about building a house.
Right, because people, if youwill, if you go buy a house,
you're just sitting there andyou look at it, go, yeah, I'll

(56:03):
take it.
You have no idea what problemsa builder had when they were
building that house and how theyhad to overcome those things.
Right, that's the sausagemaking, and some people cannot
handle the sausage making.
They can't handle the sausagemaking.
They want to buy the endproduct, but they cannot handle
the sausage making.
They can't handle the sausagemaking.
They want to buy the endproduct, but they cannot handle
the sausage making.
So if you're you, know, so youcan enjoy those things yeah, you

(56:24):
can, instead of dreading them,and and you can enjoy those
things.
So development, like going totoast masters you can enjoy that
too, and it is.
It is enjoyable because you're,you're getting something out of
it.
You're, you're going in as aunderperforming speaker and when
you come out, the other end ofthat pipe, the other end of that

(56:44):
process, you're going to be abetter speaker.
And you may not be the bestspeaker, but you're going to be
a better speaker.
You're going to improve thatskill and seeing that journey,
seeing that improvement alongthe way super encouraging.
So all these things you knoware processes and uh, and you
can enjoy all those processes,including these conversations

(57:06):
with your boss.

You really can.
Yeah, man, ben just wrapped itup.
I really don't have anythingelse.
I really don't have anythingelse.
That's funny.
Oh, man, you just.
I mean, yeah, welcome to theBen Townsend show.

I'm a behind the scenes guy oh man, that's so
hilarious you're right, I can't.

There's nothing more for me to say yeah, you
really wrapped that up.

So thank you for coming to the Scott.

Townsend show.
No, I really like how you endedit there, with enjoying the
process.
There's a lot of gold in thisepisode today.
It's worth a re-listen.
If you're out there driving,you're out for a jog, maybe
you're on a treadmill, maybeyou're on a stationary bicycle

(58:11):
or taking your dog for a walkand you're listening to this, I
hope you'll listen to it again,because there's a lot of gold
that's been dropped in this hourand there's more actually to
speaking to this topic.
The next topic I want us totalk about next time is what to
do when you don't get promoted,and so that's a whole nother,

(58:35):
you know, fraught with landmines, and there's a way to handle
that and there's a way not tohandle that.
So maybe we can talk about thatnext time.

But yeah, and the other thing is, you know, I
would just say, having aconversation like this makes me
feel like a complete hypocrite,you know, on some things,
because I've got scars.
I got scars from doing thingswrong and, in course, correcting
and that kind of thing, um.
So it's really just like youknow, over your lifetime you

(59:08):
know it's making all those, uh,all those mistakes and you know,
kind of course, correcting, um,which gave you the experience,
which gives you the experiencewhich gives you the experience.
And so you know I'm because I'lltell you this if somebody had
told me when I was 23 years oldand you know, just saying, oh,
just enjoy the process of, youknow, getting into your new

(59:28):
house, I can tell you right nowI wouldn't have listened to them
, not really I mean I would haveheard the words and I don't.
I wouldn't have outwardly saidyou know, that's stupid, that's
the stupid thing I ever heard.
I wouldn't have outwardly saidyou know, that's stupid, that's
a stupid thing I ever heard.
I wouldn't have done that, butit would have been in one ear
and out the other.
Yeah, so I, there's going to bea lot of people, if you know,
people listen to this, they'regoing to hear that and it's

(59:49):
going to be in one ear, not theother.
And I understand I'm you can'tkid a kidder, so I, I get it.
But I think I think wisdom, youknow, is listening to somebody
else who's kind of been through,uh, and made the mistakes
already and applying it to yourlife, even though you haven't
hit that decision point yet,deciding ahead of time,

(01:00:12):
listening to the wisdom ofpeople, what they have to offer,
as long as it aligns with yourcore belief systems and you have
basic level of trust.
I think that's wisdom, you know.
Listening to people and findinglittle nuggets that you can
apply your life.
So that's just the way I chooseto live my life, you know.

(01:00:33):
I choose to live my life moreof a attitude of thankfulness
and enjoying the process.
That was a huge takeaway andthat was about a year ago when I
had that conversation with thatguy and I talked to my
father-in-law and I had thisconversation with him.
He's 82 years old, 81 years old, and he said that is absolutely

(01:00:58):
100, 100, right, because itnever, ever stops.
So if you think when you getthe next thing that, you've
arrived.
You've arrived, and don't, don'tkid yourself, it's not uh.
And if you find that that wastrue, then come back and let's
talk, but I, you know, I don'tthink, I don't think I'm gonna

(01:01:18):
hear it.

Scott Townsend (01:01:18):
Yeah you know, there's a 21 year old out there,
22 year old, listening to this.
All I would ask is just justlisten to it and just consider
it not asking for a possibility.
Yeah, not looking for some bigwholesale changes here on on
your, your behalf, but, uh, justconsider it, consider what's

(01:01:41):
being said.
Uh, this might resonate fiveyears from now.
You know, a lot of these thingsdon't resonate until much later
, you know.
But so we laid the groundwork,so.
But there's other people outthere who are in our position.
They could say, heck, yeah, Iknow exactly what you're talking
about uh so, and pressure testit, pressure test some of this

(01:02:03):
stuff yeah and uh and see if itworks for you.

Ben Townsend (01:02:06):
If it doesn't, then switch course.
You know, find out fine-tunestuff to make it work for you.
Um, but your mileage may varyyour mileage may vary.

Knowledge may vary, all right.
Well, I think that anythingelse, any last words of wisdom
from sweet Ben.

I don't think.
So I'm going to have some lunchand I'm going to go work out
and go check on my house and seehow things are going.
They're painting today and theyare putting in the septic
system today.

What's the temperature down there?

Well, when I was out there just a while ago, it
was 28 degrees, so it's prettycold.
I know it's pretty cold upthere in Oklahoma, but here in
Central Texas pretty cold dayIt'll be mid-low to mid-40s
today, here, eventually.

That's a low of 16 degrees, so it's 17 degrees
right now.

right now, yeah, it's pretty cold yeah I like
cold okay, shut up.

Alexa likes to pipe up every once in a while.
All right, well, we'll wrap itup with that and, uh, if you
have any questions, comments,concerns, uh, you can always, uh
, leave a comment down below andyou can send an email to scott
at scotttownsendinfo andquestions or whatever.

(01:03:26):
We'd love to see those, andmaybe we brought up something
that you don't quite understandthat you'd like more elaboration
on, I would be, we would bemore than happy to tell you what
we think about that.
No shortage of that.
So, alright, well, good luck onyour house painting and we'll

(01:03:50):
talk to you next time.
So, for Ben Townsend, this isScott Townsend.
Have a great day, everything'sgoing to be all right and we'll
talk to you later.

Brittany McCullough (01:04:02):
The Scott Townsend Show is a Deeds O'Man
production.
For more episodes, visit theScott Townsend Show YouTube
channel, listen on ApplePodcasts or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
The Scott Townsend Show oh, oh,oh.

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#223 How To Get Promoted At Work w/Ben Townsend

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