#231 The Power of Influence: Decoding Effective Leadership w/Draven Hope & Ben Townsend

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Scott Townsend Show brought to you by
Pizza man Productions.
Liz, why don't you kick it off?
And I've got Liz, hope, I'vegot Ben Townsend myself.
Liz, tell us what's going on.
What are we doing here?

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Alright, so basically I have to write this
comprehensive leadership paper.
It's having me interviewsomebody to ask a bunch of
leadership questions aboutthemselves, so then I can write
the paper about it.
All right, you guys ready.

Speaker 1 (00:31):
Yep, so Liz asked me she goes, can I?
Interview you and I said yeah,and I said let's turn it into a
podcast, and so so she gets hercontent, I get my content.
Actually, you could probablyshare this link in your paper.
Ooh, that'd be cool.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
Yeah, that would be really cool actually.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
Yeah, so that he could, he, she could, listen or
watch it also.
Yeah, all right, liz, all right.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
You're going to be the moderator today Take it away
.
Okay, the first question is doyou think leadership develops
with experience?

Speaker 1 (01:06):
I'm gonna say yes, ben you can't elaborate it's
gonna be a really shortinterview I'm gonna say yes,
Does it develop with experience?
Because you have several winsin life or leaderships involved,

(01:32):
but you probably have moremistakes that you make and
they're not really mistakes.
You're trying things out andit's just like a kid learning
how to walk.
Does walking develop withexperience?
oh yeah, and at first you don'twalk very well and then you get
better and better and better.
Same with leadership.
Uh, you know, you start out andfall down, and start up, fall

(01:55):
down, and the more you do it alittle bit better you get, and
you just keep, hopefully keepgetting better and better.
As long as you're payingattention to what it is you're
supposed to be doing, what doyou think, ben?

Speaker 3 (02:06):
uh, yeah, I think it.
I think it does develop in time.
Um, do you think leadershipdeveloped with experience?
I think it does in time.
I think the in my mind, youknow, the question is the pace
at which it develops and and theheights to which it can go.
And for some people, you know,leadership is not something that
they're comfortable with at all, like we all, we all can like,

(02:28):
I think when we think ofleadership, we're thinking about
how, how to lead a team ofpeople, and some people just
aren't cut out for it is they'renot comfortable with it, for
whatever reason you know itcould be.
You know, maybe they're moreintroverted and they don't care
to really leave introversionmode, even for a promotion.
They don't have theself-confidence or they just

(02:52):
don't want the messiness ofdealing with people, because
once you get beyond yourself youhave to.
Leadership is about aligningpeople to some sort of goal, and
some people are comfortablewith that sales job and doing
that and some people aren't.
And then some people areinterested in being in
leadership but they kind ofhijack that role to kind of like
live out their own personalagendas and kind of point back

(03:14):
to themselves rather thandeveloping a team that is good
at executing the company'smission, if we're talking about
a corporate setting, and so Ithink that that is kind of
problematic and you can havepeople in leadership positions
who wind up.
They're effective leaders, butthey're effective at maybe some

(03:38):
tactics in that whole processthat are what's the word I'm
looking for they wind up notbeing good for really the
organization or the people thatthey're leading.
Um, so I, I think it, I think itdoes it develop over over time,
but I think that the pace atwhich that happens for people is
different, and to me, you know,maybe, maybe what we should do

(04:00):
here is define terms, so uh, and, and.
So I've got, I've got somethingin my head.
But a question back to you, liz.
What's got to is but I want toknow what you think.
How would you define leadership?

Speaker 2 (04:13):
You want me to go first?
Yeah, to me.
I think leadership is aboutbeing a servant to others, being
empathetic towards you know,your colleagues and everything.
I think it's not about takingadvantage of authority.
I think it's more about caringabout the people that are

(04:35):
working for you yep, what aboutyou, scott?

Speaker 1 (04:37):
oh, I would agree, I would agree.
And so, in caring for yourpeople and, uh, showing empathy,
uh, the the other piece, then,is what you mentioned earlier is
aligning, then pointing themtowards the goal and then,
through them, your organization,your unit, your team

(05:02):
accomplishes the goal, or atleast gets closer to the goal.
Yeah, so you know, thedefinition of leadership is
taking a group, leading byexample and crossing the finish
line with everybody's bestinterest in mind.

(05:26):
Maybe, I don't know, what doyou think?
What do you think?
So to me.

Speaker 3 (05:32):
So I think those are all good things and I think it's
all kind of dancing around thequalities of leadership, but to
me, you know, leadership is youknow in its simplest form is the
ability to influence.
That's what I was saying,that's what you were saying,
that's what Liz was saying, andthen we kind of got into the
qualities of leadership, youknow, and what what kind of like

(05:54):
constitute.
You know, a good leader versusa challenged leader?
We don't have to be totally PChere a bad leader, bad leader.
So so to me it is simply theability to exert influence and
in that process, there aredifferent ways of doing that.

(06:14):
There are probably ethical waysof doing that and there are
probably unethical ways of doingthat exerting leadership, and
so this kind of gets into thequality and what kind of person
do you really want to be?
And and so I think, in thosequalities gets to do you have a
leadership style that isenduring and both accomplishes
the goal of the enterprise andalso respects and develops

(06:40):
people along the way.
Because, no matter, I mean, ifyou're, if you're in a position
of leadership and you're makingdecisions about people who are,
I'll just say, under you forlack of a better way to say that
, just don't read too much intothat that report to you.
How about that?
You know that is by far, in acompany like you know, the
company that you work for, orany other that is by far the
biggest expense.

(07:00):
It's not the light bill, that'snot the technology spend, it's
not the light bill, that's notthe technology spend, it's the
people spend.
That is by far the biggestspend in a company.
And so if you're not doing thatwell and you're not developing
talent and if you're nottreating people right, then you
have all kinds of issues andproblems that result.
You may have a person in thatcompany who is an unethical
leader that happens toaccomplish a lot, but it will be

(07:23):
more isolated to thatindividual and it won't be, you
know, in the end, an enduringkind of leadership that results
in alignment of people who areexcited to be there.
They're also growing theircareers and being fantastic at
what they do, and if you have ateam that is operating at a very
high level, you're going tohave a successful organization,
no matter what.
If you have somebody who'skingdom building, if you have a

(07:45):
narcissist in control, they'regoing to accomplish their goals
but they'll run over people inthe process and the end result
for the company isunderperformance.
So that's a long answer to theshort question.
I think it's just basically theability to influence that is
leadership.
I like that answer influence,that is leadership.
I like that answer.

Speaker 1 (08:05):
All right, you're in control, liz.

Speaker 2 (08:08):
All right.
Are there one or twoexperiences you look back on as
having been especially valuablein helping develop your own
leadership?

Speaker 1 (08:15):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
All right, go for it.

Speaker 1 (08:19):
Whoa, I'm not your cat tipping over.

Speaker 2 (08:23):
Yes, yeah, I keep having to kick him off the table
.
All right, let's hear aboutthis experience then.

Speaker 1 (08:34):
Okay, especially valuable in helping develop your
own leadership.
So there is a story I always goback to, probably told us a
hundred times, a hundred times.
We were in a ropes for this onecompany I was working for.
We did a ropes course this oneweekend and I was a regional

(08:55):
manager for Salesforce.
And, long story short,everybody was doing really well,
except for this.
One lady was doing really well,except for this one lady and
she was about your age, probably, maybe a little older, but not
much.
Um, and uh, she, she did welland everything else, except for
the high element, and she wasscared to death to do the high

(09:16):
elements.
And uh, the day wore on,everybody finished, everybody
you know, did the, did the ropescourse, except her.
she didn't do that piece, thehigh elements, and she was a
little upset and her team, myteam, they were consoling her

(09:37):
and everything's going to be allright.
She was kind of ashamed andfelt all that feeling for not
doing what everybody else wasable to do.
you know, in front of everybodyelse.
And so I I told her, I said, ifyou, you know, if you want to,
we can.
We can approach the highelement and we can.

(09:57):
We can go as high as you wantto go.
We can do five feet.
We can go five feet and comeback right back down.
Just see how it goes, because II was hoping that if I can get
her up high enough, she'lleventually see it's not so bad,
you know, so we did, went upinto this, started off at this
tree and went up, and then she'dfreeze up and so we just sit

(10:22):
there.
I wasn't trying to, I reallydidn't really know really what I
was doing.
I just knew I need to take aneasy hand, have an easy reign,
have a light hand on thissituation and just let her
discover what she can do, butwith me underneath, just you

(10:43):
just encouraging along the way.
It's really going to be up toher.
I'm not going to carry her upthere.
I'm not going to carry heracross the high elements.
I mean, she's going to have todo it or not.
And it took a long time.
We got higher and higher frozefroze, higher, higher froze
froze, crying Don't look down,Don't look down.
Inch by inch she made it acrossand went all the way to the end

(11:10):
and there was a zip line at thevery end where you hooked your
carabiner or whatever, uh, tothe zip line and and then you
zip down to the bottom andthere's where everybody's
waiting, you know, and shezipped down and everybody
congratulated her and she was soenthusiastic and happy and she

(11:32):
was so excited and I was justwore out um I was not excited or
into.
I was happy for her.
You know, um, and she went onto do really well in sales.
Uh, she, she overcame a lot of,uh, personal doubt, self-doubt
and fear and how to accomplish,how to overcome fear through

(11:54):
that horrendous afternoonexercise and, uh, what that
taught me.
That whole experience taught methat, uh, if I would have told
her you know it's, I'm the bossand you're going to do this I'm
not, I'm not going to be ashamedin front of everybody else
having you not be, having you bethe only one that doesn't do

(12:14):
this.
you know that kind of guy orreally is putting her first and
being empathetic and and, uh,being there.
It could have gone south at anypoint.
She could have turned aroundand come back down and that was
going to be okay, but she didn'tultimately make it, and that

(12:37):
just showed me that sometimes inleadership it's not real quick
and it's not real easy and it'spainful, can be a little
emotional, can be a lotemotional.
You're trying to work throughother people and so what's the
best way to get the best out ofthem?
And you can't do the job forthem, you just encourage, be

(13:03):
there, empathize with them,sympathize with them, the.
But the end goal was to toreach the end of the zip line.
You know that's the goal and wehad to go through all this, all
these obstacles, to get thereand finally finally did so.
That was had a good outcome.
I mean, even if she would havegone up 10, 20 feet and then

(13:24):
come back down, that was, thatwas more than what she had
accomplished up to that point.
So that would have been a winand, um, it might have helped
that I was below her so shecouldn't go back down.
I'm not going anywhere, I'mgonna stand right here.
You know she had no choice, but, uh, that's how that worked out

(13:45):
and it was, it was.
I've always remembered that andit just goes to show, um, that
you know, if you listen andyou're quiet and you encourage
and support, be supportive, allthe while keeping your eye on
the target and just playing totheir strengths, you know and

(14:06):
you can.
Eventually you'll probably getthere, or if not, actually, you
know, hit the target, you'll bereal close.
So that's progress overperfection, progress over
perfection.

Speaker 2 (14:19):
Yeah, so that's my story ben, do you have one uh?

Speaker 3 (14:23):
I do and I agree with scott.
That's a great story.
Ben, do you have one?
I do, and I agree with Scott,that's a great story, by the way
.
And I agree with Scott that youknow pain is a powerful teacher
.
You know, and so I thinkprobably you know learning.
If there's some element of painin your life, you know and this
applies to leadership as wellit can be a powerful teacher and

(14:44):
so, to that extent, pain is agood thing, doesn't feel good at
the time, and you know, there's, I heard there's, there's
actually a condition wherepeople can't experience, they
don't experience pain.

Speaker 2 (14:57):
I don't know why that happens?

Speaker 3 (14:59):
physiologically, no, but the interesting thing is,
you know, they don't feel painand so they never learn not to
touch a hot stove.
Or if they go over, like Iwould.
When I was a kid, we werehaving a barbecue and I walked
over and there was these coals,you know, sitting on the
barbecue pit and they were justgray and they didn't look hot to
me, yeah, but I went over and Ipicked one of those coals up

(15:23):
and let me tell you, it was hotand it burned and blistered my
hand.
We were at Uncle Jess's housein Tahlequah and that happened.
Man, I dropped that coal andthey were making ice cream also,
and you know, I can't rememberwho it was saw what happened and
they jammed my hand down thatice of that bucket.
But you learn that way, youknow.

(15:43):
It's a valuable lesson Don'tgrab hot coals, you know, or
don't touch a hot stove.
And but people with thiscondition, when they can't feel
pain, um, their, theirstatistics on longevity is like
half the normal person, becausethey they it's not that they,
they disrespect things that arenot good for them, because they
don't experience pain, they justpain is the teacher.

(16:05):
And so if they don't have that,they tend to put themselves in
situations because they have toremember, they have to be
conscious of not doing certainthings that I haven't learned
through the process of pain.
So, anyway, I think pain is apowerful teacher, which leads
right into my story when, when Iwas um, I worked for a large
corporation, you know,multi-billion dollar corporation
.
I worked in HR in the data andanalytics area and I was.

(16:30):
I was promoted to a positionwhere I applied for it as a
director of the data andanalytics team and you know I
was going from lead analyst todirector of this team.
So now everybody was reportingto me and I was running the team
.
So I'd say there's some thingsin there I did well and I did

(16:51):
right, and there's some otherthings that I did not so good
and it wasn't because I didn'twant to do them well, it's
because, frankly, I wasoverwhelmed.
It's very kind of high-endtechnical work that we did that
required an array of skill sets.
We were partnered up with an ITteam of software engineers and
this whole team softwareengineers and analysts and stuff

(17:13):
.
All these guys reported to meas we're building out this new
reporting analytics capabilityat this big company.
But if you look at my calendar,you would see a calendar that
was full from the moment I gotin to the moment I left that day
.
I mean full with no time betweenmeetings.
Meeting went from one to two,the next one went from two to
three, the next one went fromthree to four.
It was like that, and I wasalso double booked probably half

(17:36):
the time, and so I was havingto make decisions on which
meetings I go to and which onesI don't, and there's no space
between those meetings, as Imentioned, and so there was
action items and takeaways thatI barely even had time and I'm a
note taker deluxe man, I takenotes but there was action items
and takeaways and things that Ineed to follow up on after
meetings and stuff that therewas no time between meetings,

(17:58):
and so I was barely able to keepup with those kinds of things.
So one of the things that felt,one of those meetings that I
consistently put on the backburner or deprioritized with
one-on-one meetings with peopleon my team they reported
directly to me and I wasn'tdoing this.
It was kind of an unintentional, kind of like error on my part.

Speaker 1 (18:19):
But when you're leading a team Keep going, I'll
be right back.

Speaker 3 (18:21):
Okay, when you're leading a team, the people who
report to you it's veryimportant for them to feel like
that they're connected in withtheir boss, that their boss
understands them, understandswhere they're trying to go, and
they need that face-to-face timebecause they need reassurance
that everything's okay andthey're looking for feedback,
either direct, verbal ornonverbal feedback either direct

(18:48):
, verbal or nonverbal.
And there was one lady on myteam who she probably had a
shorter patience for myrejection of her one-on-one
meetings and again I did feellike they were important, but,
in truth, not as important as megoing to these other meetings I
had.
And so I remember having ameeting with one of the vice
presidents, and it was myone-on-one with my vice
president, and this vicepresident told me well, this

(19:11):
person on your team has talkedto me and said you keep
declining the one-on-one meetingand I kind of got reamed for it
.
And my vice president was rightAt the time.
I'm like well, you don'tunderstand.
Look at my calendar.
This is ridiculous.
I cannot do all this stuff.
That being the case, I think asa leader, to bring your people

(19:32):
along and to tend to their needsas you intend, to get them
aligned with the mission andaccomplish great things for the
company, you have to take careof your people.
I was really committed to takingcare of your people and I was
really committed to taking careof my people.
That's the thing as I look back.
I really was, but I was a new,I was a newer director and and
being in a state of beingoverwhelmed, I just kind of

(19:53):
sacrificed that, that one-on-onetime with many of the people
who reported to me so that Icould attend all these other
meetings and stuff.
And there's other ways I couldhave done that and I found other
ways to do it later.
But I'm kind of a.
I follow John Maxwell fivelevels of leadership.
If you've never read thatbefore, it seems like you have
recognition there.

(20:13):
It was a huge influence to me.
Also, jack Welch at GE in themid eighties those are big
influences to me on howleadership should work and so
that really kind of forms.
It resonates with me and itforms my opinion about what good
leadership looks like.
And my style of leadership is Iwas trying to convert from lead

(20:36):
analyst, where I was mostlyfocused on myself and, yes, I
had duties for other people onthe team to provide them this,
that and the other.
Becoming that is my only jobnow really as a director to be
attentive to my team's need andtheir growth, and basically I
was neglecting that and, whetherI intended to or not, that's
what was happening.
That's what was happening and itwas a hard truth for me.

(20:57):
It was super sobering and, man,it was painful.
It was painful because you'rewrestling your own, you know,
reaction of self-defense, um, uh, making excuses for yourself.
You got to get to that prettyquickly and I did.
You know, I went through those,those kinds of things pretty
quickly, um and uh, andcorrected, corrected that

(21:18):
behavior.
So you know, that was a, thatwas a very painful lesson and
he's a powerful teacher and thatwas a great lesson for me.
And the person who complained tothe VP did me a favor.
Did me a favor because shehoned my awareness of how
important those one-on-onemeetings are and kind of like

(21:38):
having a no excuse, kind of likementality.
So it's up to me, you know I'mthe leader, you know, so I have
to lead this team effectivelyand ignoring these one-on-ones,
you know, sometimes it'sunavoidable and you have to
reschedule and I think that'sjust a part of life.
But when you do it consistently, something's not right.
And what was not right therewas the was the pace of my
growth as a new leader and Ishould have found a way.

(22:00):
And after that I did and so, andso we're that lady and I are
great friends to this day, andso so that would be one
experience I have.
I have others, but I don't wantto take up all the time here
and we're at 1036.
And so I want to make sure youget through all your questions.
So that would be the one that Iwould point to, to say that
that was one and there wereseveral others, but that would

(22:22):
be one would be one.

Speaker 1 (22:23):
Intentional one-on-ones are important, so
important in all kinds of uhsituations, whether you're
dating, you're working, you'rewith friends, uh being very
purposeful and actually settingaside time to listen.

(22:43):
Um, you know, hey, you know.
Uh, your boyfriend, hey, let's,I'm gonna sit here and uh tell
me how your day went for thenext 15 minutes, that's it.
And then be quiet and let themtalk or not talk.
And at first it's kind ofawkward.
I I used to do this with Matthew.
We'd set aside a meeting once amonth and my son and I would

(23:08):
say you know, this is your timeand we'll talk about whatever
you want to talk about Pokemonor Crash Bandicoots, whatever
you know, whatever kids are into, mario Kart girls.
But this is your time, this isa safe harbor, there's no
judgment.
You can say, literally, you cansay anything in this.

(23:31):
I'm gonna give you permissionto say anything you want to say
in this, next, in this setting,and it's going to be okay.
But you know, outside of thiswe are, we have boundaries,
rules, but you know.
So ready, set, go.
And then the first time we didthat was very awkward.
I didn't say anything, hedidn't say anything.
We're just looking at each otherand I'm wanting to jump in, so

(23:53):
bad you know oh no no, no, comeon, just tell me what you're
really thinking, you know, andtake up all the time with me
prodding him to.
Anyway, it got better, it goteasier.
And then we went to go have mandinners we call them the man
dinners where we would go to, uh, chicken, buffalo, wild wings,
and just he and I, and have wildwing, have wings now, I don't

(24:18):
want the regular wings, give methe wild ones the wild wings,
please but anyway so that's.
Uh, I think that that paid a lotof dividends because, uh, hey,
they, they have somebody theycan talk to and trust and
there's no judgment.
Um, doesn't mean it's that wayall the time, you know.
I mean but in this, yeah, theone-on-ones are really important

(24:42):
and I don't do a very good jobwith those at work either.
And I need to get better at it.
Actually, I got graded down onthis last survey that we did at
work because my listening.
I thought I was a betterlistener than what other people
thought, so I need to get betterat that.
You always think you're betterthan you really are until you
get someone else to say, well, Idon't know.

Speaker 2 (25:09):
Check you on it.
Yeah, all right.
My next question is what madethese experiences so valuable?
But I feel like you guys did agood job at answering that, so
I'm just going to skip it, okay,um, so the next one is have
your own views of leadershipchanged over time?

Speaker 3 (25:20):
you want me to go first.
By the way, I, you know, I Ikind of looked over the Scott
sent these questions before andso I looked over them yesterday
but I didn't, um, so have yourown views of leadership changed
over time?
Uh, in mind is, yes, 100%.

(25:50):
I remember I remember early on,you know, way before I was
leading teams, I remember peoplewould talk about, you know,
leadership is, and it was socliche and it just kind of like
bugged me, but it's, it'scommunication, communication,
communication and and I thoughtthat was kind of like bugged me,
but it's communication,communication, communication,
and I thought that was kind of acorny cliche.
But you know, leadership islike I said earlier.

(26:13):
I believe leadership is simplythe ability to influence.
That's what it is to me,because you go into a company
and whatever company you have,and your company has a mission
and your job as a leader is tofulfill that company mission.
And here are the resources youhave.
You have this much budget foradvertising or putting up
displays in the indoor gardenarea and this minute, this much

(26:37):
budget for the people spend inthat area and all this kind of
stuff, and so you have to takethat spend that you're
responsible for as a leader, andyou have to return more value
for that spin than the spinitself.
So that means developing people.
Of course you have your owncareer ambitions as well.
You want to get promoted andblah, blah blah.
But you have to return morevalue as a leader.

(27:00):
The outputs have to exceed theinputs or you won't be in a
leadership position for verylong.
There's other reasons you couldbe out of a leadership position
, but that's one, and so I thinkyou know in your ability to
influence, I do believe thatcommunication is that's how.
That's how you create yourability to influence.
It is about communication.
It's about understanding andbeing able to relate the mission

(27:23):
of the company to the job thatLiz has as an indoor, patio
person, garden person, and howher job relates specifically to
accomplishing the big top levelmission of the company she works
for, and so being able to dothat, whether in leadership or
not, I think is very important,but for a leader, I think is
paramount.
And then I believe you havelike a moral obligation to

(27:48):
understand what your employeeswant out of their job and try to
help them accomplish that.
It's about the mission, butit's also about building people,
because people is how youaccomplish the mission, and so
my views on leadership withregard to how important that
communication is, is veryimportant and along those lines.
Just one other thing I'm apretty analytic kind of guy,

(28:09):
analytical kind of guy, and so,being that way, I think I think
one of the ways that I've I'vekind of changed is especially,
you know, as you're relating toother people is to be less
analytical and kind offact-based in your approach and,
uh, spend more time on theempathetic, the empathy side of

(28:30):
things and dealing with people.
Because I read a quote thisisn't mine, but I read it and it
was it was.
It really struck me as yes,that's truth right there, and I
can see the error of my ways.
You know some of my, you knowinteractions as a leader, but it
was a statement that saidsomething like this emotional

(28:51):
resonance is more compellingthan fact.
Emotional resonance is moreimportant than fact.
So you can be 100% right aboutsome issue or what you're trying
to accomplish with your team,but not have your team like
follow because somebody else ismaking a different case or you

(29:11):
haven't made the emotional casefor it.
You haven't made, you haven'tconnected with them emotionally
to kind of like seal the deal onwhat you're doing, and so I
think my my view of that hasabsolutely 100 percent changed
over time, and I think you avoid, you ignore that that need for
emotional resonance at your ownperil as a leader, and so that

(29:34):
would be my answer to thisquestion.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
Does that make sense.
Yeah, I think, yeah, that'sright, that's you know, you can
have the facts.
Facts don't sell.
For example, you know, don't goin the water, water, don't go
swimming in the water, becauseyou might get.
You know, there's a shark outthere and if you just leave it
at that, okay, you're gonnaforget that in the next 10

(29:57):
minutes and then pretty soonsomeone throws a ball and it
goes out in the water.
You go out there splashingaround, go get the ball and come
back on the beach, you know,and now everyone's kind of
splashing around in the waterand totally forgot about the
fact is.
You know, fact is, somebody didsee something earlier this
morning.
Or you can tell the story ofJaws and there's no way you're

(30:19):
getting in the water today ortomorrow.
You know, I mean, after Jawscame out, there was a huge.
I mean nobody wanted to get inthe water.
You know, even in swimmingpools Everybody was freaked out
of the deep end because it'sjust so scary, huge.
I mean nobody wanted to get inthe water.
You know, even in swimmingpools everybody was freaked out
at the deep end because it'sjust so scary.
And so, yeah, telling a goodstory sells.
The fact, the facts themselvesdon't sell.

Speaker 3 (30:40):
But yeah, and internal relationships, because
let's say, let's say, in theindoor garden center, let's say
that, let's say that your bossis number one.
My, my biggest objective foryou guys here on the team is is
to so the most important thingfor us is to sell barbecue pits.
And let's say that that kim isnumber one in barbecue pit sales

(31:01):
.
And let's say that there'ssomebody else, um, but, but, but
, kim, I don't make thispersonal.
Person A sells barbecue pitslike nobody else, but they don't
spend any time developing arelationship with their boss.
And then you have person B, whodoesn't really enjoy selling
barbecue pits.

Speaker 2 (31:20):
They're a vegetarian and they don't you know whatever
.
I'm just making this up.

Speaker 3 (31:24):
And they sell whatever patio furniture,
whatever it is, but this personhas a really good relationship
with their boss.
You can say that they'reschmoozing or brown nosing or
however you want, whatever it is, but this person has a really
good relationship with theirboss.
You can say that they'reschmoozing or brown nosing or
however you want to say it, butthey're spending a lot of time
building a great relationshipwith their boss.
And then the boss has to make adecision.
Well, who gets the tickets tothe whatever the Thunder Game in

(31:46):
Oklahoma City this comingweekend?
Who gets the tickets?
And the boss awards them to theperson they have a great
relationship with, rather thanthe person who is executing the
number one thing that leader hastold the team to execute.
So that's an example of whatthat to me, what that emotional
resonance makes.

Speaker 1 (32:04):
When you get more than one person involved in an
organization, you have politicsyeah, but in that kind of uh
isn't that kind of crappy if, ifyou're, if you're selling uh
grills like nobody's businessand yet, joe, blow over here
who's yes, it's, crappy, yes,it's crappy boot liquor and they

(32:25):
get the tickets to the thundergame.
Yeah, uh, that Really reallydoes.

Speaker 3 (32:34):
But I'm not saying whether that is right or wrong,
I'm saying that's what it is andI'm saying that's human nature.
And so, along with if you knowthat it's not about being a
bootlicker, it's about look, ifI execute my job perfectly here,
but I don't spend any timedeveloping a relationship with
the people around me, then humannature is going to point out

(32:55):
their frailty and I'm not goingto get what I want and somebody
else is going to get what theywant because they're just a 100%
bootlicker.
So you can't ignore that side.
Emotional residence.
Again, this is human nature.
And is it right?
No, and as a kind ofleft-brainedined person, you're
going to say, well, that'sridiculous, you know, I, I can't
do that, I'm never going to dothat.
But okay, well, this issomething I had to learn.

(33:16):
You know, um, that thatemotional resonance is is more
powerful or more compelling thanjust the fact, is just human
nature.
And if you, if you ignore humannature, you can leave yourself
kind of out of what you want andwhere you want to go, just by
not recognizing that fact,there's nothing wrong and it's

(33:38):
just smart to build a goodrelationship with your boss and
the people around, and so Iwould say.
That's one thing that I wouldnot neglect, as I know, as I, as
I execute the mission.
It's not a moral issue, or youknow the issue where you're
sacrificing, you know your, yourbelief system.
It's just one of recognizinghuman nature, and you can have

(33:59):
it either work for you oragainst you.
Which one do you want?

Speaker 2 (34:02):
Hey guys, ready for the next question?

Speaker 3 (34:04):
Yes.
All right, wait a minute.

Speaker 1 (34:05):
Wait a minute, okay.
I think, my views have changedover time.
Don't leave me out.
Oh okay, no, I, I, I, I, I.
I used to want to be the leaderand, uh, I always thought that
was the, that was the goal andit's really shouldn't be, really

(34:27):
, um, I I've since learned.
I've seen people who want to bethe leader, and those are
usually the people you don'twant to be under.
So my view has changed there,that I wanted to be the leader.
Now I don't want to be theleader, but I do want to do a
good job and I want to employgood social skills and influence

(34:48):
.
And if that translates intoleadership, a leadership
position, it probably will.
But I'm not no longer chasingthe leadership position.
I'm done.

Speaker 3 (35:04):
I also read another book, just real quick.
Sorry, liz.
No, you're fine that I wastalking about.
This was kind of like about.
It's about leadership, but theysaid that leadership positions
attract narcissists like fliesto honey.
It is highly attractive forsomebody and Scott was just
referring to this who just wantsto be in a position of

(35:25):
leadership because they'retrying to pursue their own
narcissistic ends.
But that's not to say thateverybody who is in a leadership
position is a narcissist or hasoverbearing narcissistic
tendencies, because somebody ifyou're a John Maxwell fan and
you are 100% charged up aboutleading a team of people,

(35:46):
because your goal is to Leadinga team of people, because your
goal is to create as many greatleaders as you possibly can,
you're helping people get themost out of their careers and
their jobs and what you'rereally trying to do is create a
team of people who are capableof being great leaders in other
parts of the organization and,as a result, you become, as a
leader, this incredible pipelineof talent where people leave

(36:09):
your team and they go on to bethe manager of the paint
department, the lumberdepartment this guy over here is
the lumber sales guy whateverthey become leaders and then
they go out having under yourtutelage and they have their own
teams at that point, and thenthey replicate what they learned

(36:30):
under you, and so in that wayyou multiply that kind of
philosophy and presencethroughout the company and your
company over time becomes highperforming.
So there's that kind of leadertoo, and I think, for people who
are charged up about that kindof leadership, I think you can't
have enough of them, and so Ithink that that kind of person

(36:50):
would be the kind of person whowho has you know, leadership is
something they want to do, um,and that's a good thing, because
you can't get enough those kindof people and just so you know,
ben uh liz draven.

Speaker 1 (37:02):
I call her draven, that's her middle name.
It's a great name, so it's tome it's draven.
Draven is a.
You're the captain right of thevolleyball team, or not?

Speaker 2 (37:12):
I was whenever I was playing.

Speaker 1 (37:14):
Yeah, okay now I just coach coach volleyball, okay,
so yeah, she's in a.
She's definitely in aleadership position as a coach.
So yeah, there's all kinds ofways to apply what we're talking
about as a coach?
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Yeah, you can apply.
Apply all of the.
You can make all the mistakes,or you can make make all the
wins, you know right.

(37:35):
As a coach.

Speaker 2 (37:37):
It's a hard job.

Speaker 3 (37:39):
Yes, it is.
Yes, it is.
I've coached you.

Speaker 2 (37:42):
All right.
Do you think leadership in yourarena is much different from,
or involves different pressuresthan, leadership in other areas?
I think it's supposed to bearea, not arena.

Speaker 3 (37:54):
I think, I think I think leadership skill true
leadership skill is completelyfungible.
You can, you can take somebodywith great leadership skill and
they're in the home improvementbusiness and you can take that
same person and you can dropthem down in a manufacturing
setting.
Or you can drop them down insome other industry, whatever it

(38:14):
is, textile, whatever If theyhave great leadership skills,
they can take that and applythat anywhere they go.
The only thing that reallychanges is what the company's
mission is.
So it would be about learningthat the company's mission and
going over there and using yourleadership skill to align people
to that mission.
The harder of those two thingsare the actual leadership skills

(38:36):
and they're fungible.
So you can take them and youcan put them anywhere, as long
as you don't have you're not inan organization that kind of has
corrupt leadership, and if youare in an organization like that
, you can't stay there.
You might want to go ahead andget promoted there, but you have
to have an exit plan orsomething like that to go and

(38:56):
put your skills to work in anorganization that doesn't have
this commoditized view of thepeople that work there.
They're just commodities orjust widgets in this whole
process and we're just, we'rejust using them.
You know, if you're, if you'rein that kind of organization,
then you really need to planyour exit, because you can't win
If you're somebody who is 100%devoted to the John Maxwell

(39:19):
style of leadership and andethical dealing with other
people.
Just a brick in the wall.
Yeah, so I think it's.
I think it's I Just a brick inthe wall?
Yeah, so I think it's.
I mean I would be open tosomebody says no, it's not
exactly as fungible as you say.
Then I would love to have thatconversation with somebody and
listen to the case they make.
But that's my opinion on it andyou see it all the time that's

(39:42):
executive development.
They'll take somebody, like atthe company I work for and they
were in the finance part of theorganization, they advanced to a
, you know, a vice president.
Then they'll send that, they'lltake them from the finance
department and they'll move themto, like, the head of HR Well,
that's completely different andthen they'll move them from HR
and then they'll they'll movethem over to, you know, the bank

(40:03):
and do banking services, whichis different than finance, you
know, and what they're doing isthis is recognition that
leadership skill is fungible.
What they're really trying todo is get them experience
running all facets of thebusiness so that, because they
have their eye on promoting thisperson to a much bigger role
than being the vice president ofa company within this
conglomerate.
What do you think, scott?

Speaker 1 (40:24):
I think that's right.
Yeah, do you think I thinkleadership is universal
Leadership?
That's right.
Yeah, do you think I?
I think leadership is universalleadership?
Uh, qualities are universal anduh, if you can, you can lead a
team doing whatever.
That's probably probably.
You're probably going to beable to do the same thing, uh,
elsewhere, as long as you knowhow to.

(40:45):
Uh.
I was going to say motivatepeople.
That's's one big problem People, uh people have in businesses.
They think they got to motivatethe people, but I don't ever
try to motivate somebody.
If they're not alreadymotivated, then they shouldn't
be on your team.
Uh, but you can inspire themand influence them and teach
them.

(41:05):
And if you're a good teacher,you're a good listener and
you're a good learner, youunderstand the human dynamic.
You can probably do that in alot of different fields.
Maybe not everything, but Imean pretty much.
Don't underestimate the needfor education in a particular

(41:26):
field and think just becauseyou're a proven leader doesn't
mean you need to learn somethingabout a new position you're
taking on.
But overall, that being said, Iwould agree Leadership skills
are universal.

Speaker 2 (41:39):
I'll agree with that too.
Okay, I have two questions left, so the next one is do you ever
reflect after the fact abouthow effective your behavior was
in a particular situation?
Is this ever a source of new ordifferent insights?

Speaker 1 (41:56):
I would say, yes, do I ever reflect?
I reflect too much, way toomuch.
As a matter of fact, uh, Iwould go into jordan's office
and I would say you know, I saidthis in the meeting the other
day and I'm not quite sure blah,blah, blah.
Then, next week, after themeeting, I'm not sure how I came
off on approaching that subjectin that particular way blah,

(42:18):
blah, blah.

Speaker 2 (42:19):
Then the third week.

Speaker 1 (42:20):
You know, I thought I was coming off a little too
hard or I don't think I made mypoint and she goes, man.
She finally said man, youreally think a lot about what
you say, and that's just let itgo.
You know, just say your thing.
I don't know if nobody istaking it as seriously as you

(42:41):
are, if they, if at all.
They just heard you saysomething, and that's it.
But you replay it over and over, and over and over in your mind
, you, you know, and days lateryou're still talking about it.
Basically, she was saying in anice way just shut up.
You know, just get over it don'tbeat yourself up, just move on
my god, uh, self-reflection isgood, but, um, I was taking it

(43:04):
to the extreme and what?
What I was?
What I was proving to her wasthat I am not a confident person
and uh, um, I was well it'ssituational because I wouldn't
say about you you are not aconfident person.

Speaker 3 (43:16):
I know you pretty good, pretty well, um, but but I
do think it can be situationaland and I agree with kind of
like you know, everybody dealswith fear and uh, and fear can
be a very uh kind of controllingthing that happens.
It could be very destructiveforce right there between your
ears.
You don't have to have anybodyelse involved in the

(43:36):
conversation with yourself aftersomething happened, and there's
always ways we can say thingsbetter, do things better, that
sort of thing.
Fear is that thing that getsinto your mind and it is
absolutely doggedly persecutingyou and you're doing it to
yourself.
And so I think, like an afteraction review for some kind of

(43:59):
meeting that you had thinkingback on how you said something
was your prep right?
I think those things areextremely valuable, but you have
to turn them into learning andaction so you can remove it from
.
You know, this kind of area ofregret that's really built out
of low self-confidence and fear,you know.
And so, if you really so, Ithink those things are very
important.
You know as part of thelearning process whether you did

(44:22):
something great or didsomething not so great.
You know it was, whether it wasa good thing or a bad thing.
I think there's things you cantell you, man, this thing works
so well.
I'm going to always start mypresentation with X, y, z, you
know.
Or I'm always going to have acertain number of graphs in here
, you know, because it was socompelling.
Or, you know, when somebodysaid, you know it was kind of
opposing my idea, I think Ireacted a little too emotionally

(44:44):
to it.
If you need to go apologize tothe person, then go do it, you
know, and then learn.
Okay, so I need to.
I need to learn how to be alittle more measured.
Or maybe I'm too measured.
You know when I'm doing stuffand I have to have more
enthusiasm, you know, than mymeasured response.
You know it can be all thosedifferent things and fine tuning
is something I don't think youever stopped doing, but I think

(45:06):
it's really important to dothose things to to evaluate your
performance and take whateveraction is necessary to shore it
up in the way you think it needsto go and then move on.

Speaker 1 (45:14):
Yeah, I would agree.
I mean, I reflect all the time,I reflect too much.
Yeah, that can kind of work youinto a corner right.
Is this ever a source of new ordifferent insights?
Is this ever a source of new ordifferent?

Speaker 2 (45:29):
I mean you know.

Speaker 1 (45:30):
Is this ever a source of new or different insights?
Ever a source of new ordifferent?
I mean, you know behavior in aparticular situation, my
behavior.
I've reacted negatively, I'vehad bad reactions to things and
it didn't work out well.

Speaker 3 (45:41):
Good thing it's never happened to me.

Speaker 2 (45:44):
Yeah yeah.
Okay, you ready to move on tothe last question?

Speaker 1 (45:48):
Yeah, just one thing, as ben was talking there a sec
just a second ago.
Uh, you mentioned thepowerpoint presentation graphs
and stuff like that.
Earlier we were talking aboutthe facts versus storytelling
and unfortunately, uh, you know,there's that thing called death
by powerpoint.
Uh, people will throw up agraph of numbers or whatever and

(46:10):
uh, and it's pretty, no one'sever going to remember that,
like, uh, eight out of tenwildebeest never survive a lion
attack.
And there was the numbers youknow.
But you show me of on onpowerpoint, you show me a video
of a lion chasing down awildebeest and just ripping the
ground trying to get to thatwildebeest and he climbs on top

(46:32):
of that wildebeest and tears himoff the back and sinks his
teeth into the neck of thewildebeest and just making a, I
mean just tearing it up.
Man, you're gonna walk away.
That's all you're gonna talkabout all day.
That might be all you talkabout today about this
conversation is thisvisualization I just threw your
way shark, sharks and lions andwildebeests, and you know, uh,

(46:58):
telling a good story yeah, it'ssell the sizzle, not the steak,
you know sodo you want to talk about
something?
I had a guy, uh, I wanted hispowerpoint presentation and he
said it's not going to do youany good.
I said why is that?
And he said because myPowerPoint, my PowerPoints, just
have pictures and I speak tothe picture.

(47:18):
You know it doesn't say twoplus two equals four.
It shows hang on a second, waita minute.
Hey, come here.
Come here, hang on a second,wait a minute.
Hey, come here.
Courtney brought uh the kidsover, um, anyway so speaking to

(47:40):
the picture, yeah, and so whenhe goes through his presentation
, you remember the picture ofthe big yellow bird and the.
You know stuff like that.
I'll, I'll, I'll be quiet now.

Speaker 3 (47:53):
Okay, can I tell a quick story?
It's kind of along those linesOne time.
One time I had to give apresentation.
We had these quarterly meetingswhere we would have like a
thousand people, 600 to athousand people, come to a giant
conference center and my, myrole, I would be one of a few
few people, one of the fewpeople who would have to speak
to that entire audience.

(48:14):
And I hate being last, I, youknow, to present.
I hate being last because my,you know, my, my anxiety kind of
grows like during thepresentation, um, and so I just
really hate it.
But I was sitting there andknowing that I had to speak, and
I was like one of the lastpeople that was going to speak.
And, as time went on, everybodyin the conference center you
know they were, they were doingthis, you know they were

(48:35):
somebody was presenting you knowthey're doing this.
you know nobody was payingattention and I'm like, well,
how nervous should I be, youknow, getting ready to get up
here and speak in front of allthese people when nobody really
is paying attention at all?
But is that really what I want?
And so, and so I know Iactually like I only have a few
minutes here to make make a bigimpact and I want everybody to
pay attention because I havesome great information I need to

(48:55):
relay to them and try to getthem aligned so I'm about to
tell you really great, yeah, itwas too.
And so, as I was on my way up tothe lectern, um, I reached in
my pocket and I grabbed mywallet.
I had it.
I'm going to pretend like thislittle, this is my AirPod case,
my EarPod case.
I'm going to pretend like it'sa wallet.
I just had it palmed in my hand.

(49:16):
I went up there and I said goodmorning everybody, ben Townsend
, here, I'm the product managerfor XYZ.
Hey, and before I get startedand held up my wallet, I said
did anybody lose their wallet?
And man, all of a suddeneverybody's head snapped around
and they're looking and theystart digging through their
purses, you know, trying to find.
I'm going.

(49:36):
I'm just kidding, this is mywallet.
I just want to make sure I haveyour attention and if you'll
give me your attention for thenext 10 minutes, I promise I'll
be brief, concise and to thepoint, if you'll give me your
attention for the next 10minutes.

Speaker 1 (49:49):
That's good, that's good.

Speaker 3 (49:51):
I like that.

Speaker 1 (49:56):
But then you got to keep your word and keep it to 10
minutes.
I heard one guy say he likesbeing the last person in a
lineup because of what you justsaid and so you can do anything.
They've watched all thePowerPoints.
They've heard all the droning.
Horrible speakers know peoplethat can't do this very well and
you get to go up there and youcan do anything, man and they

(50:19):
will love you for it, you knowdon't make me suffer through
another right make it fun foryou make it fun for them, just
go crazy, you know.
Just take a baseball and justknock it, you know just go run
through the audience or orsomething.
You know you can do anythingand they'll love you for it,
because, thank you for, you know, getting us out of here, uh,

(50:42):
and helping us enjoy the last 10minutes and, yeah, you still
get your point across but youcan, yeah, pretty much do
whatever you want, yeah, and getaway with it.

Speaker 3 (50:50):
Sorry, that may have been a little bit of a
digression there.
No, that was a good story.

Speaker 2 (50:54):
I liked it All right.
The last question is is thereany advice you would give people
early in their careers aboutleadership?

Speaker 3 (51:02):
I'll speak last if you want me to.
Yeah, I'll go first.
We sold that point really well.

Speaker 1 (51:11):
I think I'll let you go last.
It's the human condition youknow.
So, Draven, you're a coach,You're a sales associate at
Lowe's at the indoor lawn andgarden, you are an aspiring
physical therapist and there's alot to learn their anatomy and

(51:34):
muscles and you know how it allwe're engineering and how all
that works.
But more importantly, whetheryou're at lowe's or you have
your own practice or you'reworking at a practice.
You're practicing at a practiceum relationships.
You know it's all about thehuman condition.
It's all about are you a goodlistener?

(51:55):
Do you?
Are you aware of the influencethat you have, both good and bad
?
Influence is really important.
Influence is microscopic and alot of times you won't know the

(52:16):
influence you have on someone.
Sometimes you, you, sometimesyou're blessed to have some
insight as to the influence youhad on someone, but for for the
most part, you might not eversee that.
Just know that you are, you aregiving, you are, you are

(52:37):
influencing people, and you knowit's the way you dress, it's
the way you carry yourself, it'sthe way you speak to people or
not.
It's the way you take care ofyourself.
It's the way you speak topeople or not.
It's the way you take care ofyourself.
It's the way you know self-love.
You got to love yourself first.
You know what I mean by that.
You got to take care ofyourself, and that might inspire

(53:01):
other people who don't do sucha good job at that to start
trying to.
And or maybe it's it's it'sit's it's your attitude at work.
You're always on time and youhave a good at it, and I know
you've been awarded stuff atlowe's because of your attitude,
um, which is tremendous peoplesee it and it rolls off onto

(53:27):
other people.
So, just you know, is there anyadvice?
Yeah, just know that you are aninfluence and that swings both
ways and unfortunately, somebodywill see you do something wrong
at the wrong time and you can'ttake that back.
You might not even know thatthey saw you, you know, and

(53:49):
that's just the way it is.
So in a leadership position,speaking of leadership, ben said
leadership is influence, andthat's, that's right.
And influence it can be very Iwas thinking about this the
other day it can be very.
I said microscopic.
I said microscopic.
What I mean is that it can besomething that even you don't

(54:11):
notice until after a while.
You notice people either actinglike you or let's say, for
example, that you have a greatattitude at work and you don't
use bad language, okay, well,that kind of eventually, that
kind of carries over to thepeople that you work with and

(54:33):
all of a sudden they startdressing better and they start
watching their mouth and, uh,they see, they, they, they like
you and and they want to be likeyou and, and you know that.
So you can't let that go toyour head.
But you just know that I'msupposed to be a good example.
We're all supposed to be goodexamples of being a good husband

(54:58):
, a good father, a good brother,a good friend, a good worker,
and we all pretty much know whatthat's like and what those.
Unfortunately, there are somepeople who don't even have a
father figure.
There is none.
So the guy who has no fatherfigure has really no idea how to
be a good father.
That's unfortunate.
That's not to say that youcan't overcome that.

(55:22):
You can.
Don't use it as an excuse.
But admittedly, it might be alittle harder for him to know
how to be a good father becausehe didn't have the influence.
A good boss, a good friendMaybe somebody doesn't have any
good friends.
They don't have any goodfriends, only friends that are

(55:44):
not really friends, people thatjust take advantage of them,
advantage of them.
So you know, that's, that's.
I'll just be.
Just be mindful of the of.
People are watching you,watching me, watching ben, and
they're going to emulate.
They're going to do what we do,or not?
Uh, so you know, on the onehand that's kind of cool.

(56:07):
On the other hand, it's kind ofscary, because you might be
responsible for someone's baddecisions I don't know, those
are just my thoughts.

Speaker 3 (56:17):
Take it away, sweet ben okay, like before I get
started, anybody lose theirwallet I lost my phone I'll try
to be brief here.
um, so you know, as, as I'vesaid several times, the
leadership is your ability toinfluence, and you influence
people by your words and actions, and so your words and actions

(56:40):
have to be consistent, and andsometimes the actions part is
harder and sometimes it's easier, but I think the I think the
area that people may strugglewith the most is their ability
to communicate, and so I think,I think, as a leader at somebody
, the question was is thereadvice you give people early in

(57:00):
their career?
If you want to be in leadership, just make sure that your
motivations are right.
You know, is your motivationand your style one that's going
to consume people in the process, or are you going to develop
people in the process?
Right, um, excuse me.
So you know people who want toconsume people in the process.
They don't give a rip aboutleadership.
You know they're going to go inand they're going to take what
they can get, and they're goingto make people's lives miserable

(57:22):
in the process and it's theboss that everybody hates
because they're so self-focused.
Um, so, so I think you knowleadership focused.
So I think, leadership if youwant to be in leadership, I
would say, read a number ofbooks on leadership and kind of
understand what your ownphilosophy is and why.
Make sure that it is consistentwith your faith and your sense

(57:46):
of fair play.
You have to accomplish what thecompany is trying to do and you
have to get people aligned tothat.
That's just the job of a leader, and sometimes it's a fun
process and sometimes it's notso fun, but that's what you have
to do as a leader.
But you have to be, in myopinion, honest with the people
that work for you and you haveto do whatever you can to see if

(58:10):
they get what they want youknow out of their experience
there.
But if part of that you know asbeing a leader is so much of
his communication, then ifyou're not good at communication
, then develop that you know,learn into your ability as a
leader.
If you can't communicate, ifyou can't speak, well, you know,
go to Toastmasters.
You know, I've doneToastmasters, or maybe some

(58:32):
other kind of organization,something else you need to shore
up, but you need to invest inyourself as a leader somebody
young in their leadership career.
I think it's also reallyimportant to have a mentor
somebody that you look up to andrespect.
You know that can kind of giveyou some guidance, um, and
somebody who's who's the kind ofleader that's looking to
develop other people that turnstheir crank.
You need that person in yourlife as a young leader and they

(58:54):
can see the blind spots that youcan't see right and they.
They've been through the schoolof hard knocks.
You know, I've been through theschool of hard knocks.
So if you find somebody, youknow who, who will, will be
willing to invest in you,somebody who is, uh, you know,
operated at a high level,relatively high level in an
organization been successful andhas a track record of

(59:15):
developing talent andaccomplishing the company's
mission and successful in thoseways, then that's a person you
need in your life.
So you got to be great to findsomebody like that.
And then also I would say, youknow, make it with the
organization that you're in.
You could always changeorganization.
The good news is leadershipskills are fungible, as I said
earlier.
But with whatever organizationyou're in, I think young

(59:38):
aspiring leaders need to do anhonest assessment of the quality
of the upper leadership intheir company, and there's going
to be things that leaders dothat you don't agree with or
whatever.
That doesn't necessarily meanthey're bad leaders.
They maybe they're bad leaders.
Maybe maybe you know theirtheir tree isn't producing good

(59:59):
fruit, you know.
So you have to make thatassessment and if and if you
really want to be a leader orjust have any kind of success in
a company where you're have ahighlight on ethics and um you
and treating people with dignityand respect, then if you're not
an organization that engendersthat, that creates the
conditions for that to succeed,then you need to go find an
organization that does, and itmay be that you know what.

(01:00:22):
What I really need to do here.
I've already got time investedhere in this company.
I'd really like to kind of getto the next level and then, you
know, work from there and workout and go to another company
I've already done some work on.
I have a friend that works overthere and their leadership
sounds amazing over there.
I would develop your exit plan,because you cannot succeed as a
person who has a high premiumon ethical engagement and

(01:00:46):
developing people.
You can't succeed in anorganization that does not value
those things.

Speaker 2 (01:00:50):
So that's what value those things.

Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
So that's what I would say, that's the advice
that I would give, just in anutshell.

Speaker 1 (01:00:59):
Yeah, you know, being a leader also we're talking
about in your job.
But as a friend, as a familymember, your family member, your
brother, your mom, your friends, people at church, people in
your other organizations thatyou belong to yeah, you can be a
leader.
We're all leaders, probably.
We're probably all leaders.

(01:01:19):
I'll say another way we allhave influence.
Whether we exercise the rightkind of influence or not, that's
totally up to you.
And it's a good thing thatyou're asking these questions,
because it shows me that you'reinterested in it and you're
taking classes in it and you'retaking it seriously and you're
asking all the right questionsyeah, if you're the kind of

(01:01:40):
person who's uh not makingmistakes, um, you're either not
trying hard enough or you're notrecognizing the mistakes that
you make so because you're goingto make mistakes, so um yeah,
and mine's not, um so

Speaker 3 (01:01:55):
so I would say that also, that it's okay to make
mistakes, but a good leader anda person just who is good, a
good learner, you know whetheryou're leading or you're a
member on a team.
If you're not making mistakeswith something, then you're not
trying hard enough.
A member on a team if you'renot making mistakes with
something, then you're nottrying hard enough.
You're just going in andchecking the box or you simply
have a Pollyanna view on yourlife and you don't have any

(01:02:18):
thing in you that can recognizefault or something that you can
do better.
So I would say it's either oneof those two things, because
none of those are perfect.
So you're making mistakes,whether you realize it or not,
and you can't be a sociopath andturn off your inner sense of I
didn't do that right or I couldhave done that better.
You have to have empathy forother people around you.

Speaker 1 (01:02:40):
I think people value leaders that are not so well if
they make a mistake they own upto it.
And so well if they make amistake they own up to it.
So many times you see peoplemake a mistake and then they'll
won't admit it or just keepmoving or hope nobody notices.
I sent an email to a guy and ICC'd everybody on the team when

(01:03:05):
it was really just supposed togo to him and he got pissed off
and you know't blame him, don'tblame him.
And so I I had to.
I had to say, hey, I screwed up, I did, I did that, I didn't
mean to do that, butnevertheless I did that.
So I apologize, I own that.

(01:03:28):
Uh, I screwed up, and I thinkpeople appreciate when somebody
will come, come clean and just,you're just, we're all just
humans, you know, and we're alljust trying to make a go over
here and we're going to screw up.
And that's what happens is whenyou screw up and you don't
acknowledge it or you hope noone will notice.
Everybody notices.
The higher up the pole you gomore of your ass.

(01:03:49):
They see you.
So just cool it.
Make mistakes and then be okaywith apologizing for those
mistakes and keep moving.

Speaker 3 (01:04:02):
Yeah, and as a leader , if you do that, if you're kind
of self-effacing that way,you'll increase your team's
threshold for innovation, makingtheir own mistakes as they try
to do better and better, andagain you'll wind up with a high
performing team people whoaren't afraid to make mistakes.
You know, make mistakes andlearn.
That's why you know when they,when they hire people, who,
who's an executive.
This guy's been over here, he'sgot 40 years of experience, you

(01:04:25):
know, doing X, y, Z and we'rewe're going to move him over
here.
We're going to move him overhere, we're so excited to have
him.
What they're really saying is,hey, we've hired a guy who's
already made all the mistakes.
That's what experience is.
That's why they want those guys, because if they've made the
mistake, they have made themistakes and they were
successful and therefore theyhave learned from those mistakes
and we want that guy in ourorganization.

(01:04:46):
That guy is going to tend tohave the patience of his team's
progress in that area thatsomebody had to have with him.
You know, and, and you again,develop high performing teams,
so it's good medicine.

Speaker 2 (01:04:58):
All right, well, that's all I have.

Speaker 1 (01:05:02):
That's all we want.

Speaker 2 (01:05:04):
Good job Liz.

Speaker 3 (01:05:06):
Good job, Good questions.
Did you have any?
Did you have anything in this,in this, uh, in this
conversation, where you're likeyou have like a challenge for
something you heard today orsomething that really stood out
in terms of how it resonatedwith you?

Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
I mean, I wouldn't say that I would challenge
anything, because I'm takingthis as a learning experience,
because I'm not an experiencedleader at all.
So I just like to listen intothese conversations and just see
what other people's point ofviews are and just learn from it
.
And honestly it's kind of like,since I'm young, like I, can

(01:05:42):
you know take.
It's kind of like what youlearn from other people.
I think it's like I don't know,like working in the paint
department, everything that Ilearned there was from other
people.
So like there's habits that Ido that I learned from somebody
else.
So that's what I kind of thinkabout leadership as well.

Speaker 1 (01:06:00):
Well, thanks for asking.
Thanks for asking the questions, wanting to include us in on
your project.

Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
Yeah, of course.

Speaker 3 (01:06:06):
Yeah, yeah, it's great.
I'm honored to be here 1127.

Speaker 1 (01:06:10):
We're well past 11, 15, so I I hope that's okay with
everybody oh I mean, that'sfine, good here, all right.
Well, yeah, liz is good tilltwo, so we can keep going.
If we want, let's all go make asandwich and come back, but, uh
, all right.
Well for Liz Draven Hope andBen Townsend.

(01:06:34):
Sweet Ben, this is ScottTownsend.
Welcome to the Scott TownsendShow.
Thanks for being here.
Have a great day, everything'sgoing to be all right and we'll
talk to you later.

Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
The Scott Townsend Show is a Dietz-O-Man production
.
For more episodes, visit theScott Townsend Show YouTube
channel, listen on ApplePodcasts or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
You, you, you, you, you you.

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#231 The Power of Influence: Decoding Effective Leadership w/Draven Hope & Ben Townsend

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