Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Welcome to Georgia Focus. I'm John Clark in the Georgia
News Network. The Sweet Auburn Historic District in Atlanta is
the birthplace of Martin Luther King Junior and the civil
rights movement. What's the wealthiest Black neighborhood in the world.
Sweet Auburn now faces social, commercial, and urban challenges that
threaten this historic spaces with demolition as Atlanta grows. I
recently visited Sweet Auburn to talk with Gene Kansas, the
author of Civil Sits, a journey through Atlanta's National Treasurer.
(00:30):
This book is full of good stuff. It's really good.
How long did it take you to write this book?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Only eight years? Only eight It's an incredible history, though,
about the remarkable people who came together to find success
on behalf of the world in the civil rights movement
here in Sweet Auburn and Atlanta birthplace in the civil
rights movement. And yeah, thank you for having me on
the ship.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Yeah, thank you for being here, for having me here
to small studio, a radio studio that talk about this
building here where you're based out of talk about your
building here.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Right the room we're in right now is called the
Fifth District studio and homage to the Lake Congressman John
Lewis and the district he served. The building itself. This
building was built in nineteen ten as the Southern School
Book Building, a book warehouse the wholesale books of the
school system. It was designed by Neil Read, famous Atlanta architect. Also,
(01:29):
you know, in historic preservation parlance, there's something called periods
of significance. So when was a building its most historically significant,
And for this building, it was in the early and
mid nineteen sixties when the Student Non Violent Coordinating Committee,
chaired by then twenty three year old John Lewis, had
(01:51):
a headquarters here. And so think about like John Lewis,
Ella Baker Rosen, Pope Bayard Rust and Julian Bond, Stuart Udents.
This is where the leadership of the movement was not
just this building, but Sweet Auburn on the whole. You
know Martin Luther King and selc at the Prince All
Masonic Lodge. But every building here has stories that are contributing.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
This neighborhood is where it all happened right here, and
so many people like you mentioned the names of the
people that just got together they started civil rights movement.
It started right here in this strict, relatively small neighborhood
compared to the whole city, and it went worldwide. It
just went worldwide. Yes, it's amazing.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
And it took me eight years to write this book,
in part because the history in many ways is hidden
and history is exclusionary in some cases, and specifically to
this history, the unsung, unknown and up underrepresented heroes and
(02:59):
heroines of the movement are not the ones that we
know about women, in particular black women. True, and also
just hundreds of thousands of everyday heroes that had to
come together. And so it took a lot of effort
to go and you know, find these people hiding in history.
And then when I did, it became so much more alive,
(03:21):
not just like for the sake of the civil rights
movement and understanding that, but also for Atlanta and for
humanity on the whole.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
This even goes all down the street. This is one place,
and the next door you have the one hundred Black
Men of Atlanta. And then you had the daily world
talk about those buildings, are they still there? They still
off still in that place.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
So with one hundred black men, which is directly next
door to where we are at the Southern School Book Building. Yes,
they are there. The building's first kind of period of
significance though, was as Atlanta's first black bookstore. And then
you have the Daily World Building. The Daily World newspaper,
(04:05):
the country's oldest black newspaper up to a point in time,
was there until March fourteenth, two thousand and eight, when
the tornado hit and that card that six mile path
of destruction from CNN Center to Oakland Cemetery down Auburn Avenue,
and it forced The Daily World out of there. It
(04:25):
also ripped the roof off and it rained inside, and
the building was severely damaged, and it sat there kind
of languishing for years. A developer applied for a demolition permit,
and that's when I kind of started paying attention. I'd
moved to Atlanta in nineteen ninety five at this point
in time, they were around twenty ten when I started
(04:45):
really reading and learning more about these community, not just citizens,
but activists, really people who cared about saving this history,
coming together eleven hundred people to deny a demo permit petition,
and then the city of Atlanta, through the Atlanta Urbansign Commission,
unanimously denying it as well. I was like, wow, this
(05:07):
is pretty important. So the Daily World building does not
have the Atlanta Daily World newspaper in it, but what
it has is a legacy and it has a lesson
to share with others. And the Sweet Auburn Historic District
on the whole designated in nineteen seventy six as a
(05:30):
landmark district. Since then, almost half of the historic structure
has been lost to things like tornadoes or the wrecking ball,
or demolition via neglect. And if we continue along this
path and trajectory, by the time that people who are
born today or my age, you won't have any evidence
of the birthplace of civil rights movement, and you'll also
(05:50):
lose what these buildings represent, which is civil and human rights.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Is there a way we can do something now to
change it to stop that from happening?
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Well, yeah, I mean I think that learn more about
what's happening here civil sites is a definitive resource. But
also there's some great groups here in Atlanta. I know
we are both fond of the Georgia Truster Historic Preservation
and the programming that they do the Atlanta Preservation Center.
Also just coming down and visiting the businesses. Come for
(06:24):
lunch at the Curve Market. Grab something that's sweet. Auburn
Bread Company. Visit the Auburn Avenue Research Library. See some art.
Georgia State University is surroundings right here, right here. There's
like forty thousand students downtown here. You know, it's vibrant.
It does require a little bit of work to learn
(06:44):
about what you're seeing. And that's where Civil Sites comes
in because it takes that hidden history and puts it
right on these pages.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
It really does. I mean, you go history, you go
bisection of the neighborhood. This station is how many sections
are there this whole neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Well, in Civil Sites, we can learn about forty five
different historic sites, and you know, even some that are adjacent,
like Heron's Restaurant, which was the first restaurant in Atlanta
to integrate voluntarily, by the way, doesn't exist anymore in
(07:22):
its form. It's now the Ballser Theater and at Heron's,
which is home to theatrical outlet, a theater company. The
thing that's like kind of cool though, if like you
want to like pick up and read that story. It
starts in pre World War One Italy and then it
comes here and you have the civil rights movement, and
(07:43):
then you have like this historic preservation, a contemporary program
of a theater. It's got centiment, roles, it's got all
kinds of things wrapped into it. But you know, all
of these buildings have these stories because they have been
literally embodied by people who are living lives, and we
all have stories to share. Yeah, you all do it
for a living, and it's welcome things.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
We like doing it. One building that interested me across
from here, the White Building, the Atlanta the Life Building.
Is that building empty, a beautiful building.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
It's gorgeous. Buildings that are vacant are a lot more
susceptible to problems, right, right. I mean it's why, you know,
if you want to kind of use a rubber meets
the road example, that's why insurance is more when you
have a vacancy.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Right.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
But yeah, I mean that building, the Atlanta Life Insurance
Company was founded by Alonzo Herndon. Alonzo Herndon was born enslaved.
His father was his owner and let that kind of
sink in, right, and then he and his mother were
slash like, you know, both emancipated and kicked out of
(08:54):
the house. He at a young age, came up a
print to a barber in Kawita County, ended up moving
to Atlanta and making a long and impressive and inspiring
story short, he started buying the Benevolent Society of Churches.
(09:15):
He also had barber shops that were renowned for their
beauty and success called Crystal Palace. But the loonzo Harden
started buying the Benevolent Societies of Churches, which is basically
like the forerunner of precursor to insurance companies, and grew
that into the largest black business in the United States.
(09:36):
Maybe more so than that though. What was provided by
that company, which was financial independence for blacks, the ability
to have some form of protection and conservation and care,
was monumental. And then the company also was the anonymous
funder of the Civil rights movement. But the building, to
(09:59):
your point, is sitting there vacant and crumbling, and it
would be a tragedy if that fell into the category
of another historic structure loss in this district.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Right right right, that would be that is a beautiful building,
and it's big. It's big. It's next to a Georgia
State University building next to it, and it tells it's
a little story about but it's right, it's beautiful.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
And it's also next to a vacant parking lot that
you used to have the Rucker building that was destroyed.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Oh man, what about the churches? And we get to
Martin Luther King in a minute, because he had was
from a church here. The churches, there's one up here,
the one that says Jesus saves up there that's lit
up at night too, bethl Big Bethel, Yeah, that's one
that that church and then the oven is yeah, talk
about that.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Big Bethel is Atlanta's oldest Black church. And you know,
churches is really the foundational cornerstone of not only Sweet Auburn,
but really the civil rights movement. And Big Bethel Morris
Brown College was born in its basement, right. I mean
you have to have the churches, the schools, the fraternal organizations,
(11:01):
the entrepreneurship and the fund that Sweet Auburn had. We're
talking about a district in a neighborhood that was with
commercial and cultural nexus for blacks in this country, you know.
But Big Bethel, you know, embodied so much of this.
It was also a place where John Wesley Dobbs called
for voter registration. You know, getting blacks on the voting
(11:22):
roles ultimately provided a political power that allowed for laws
to be changed and start leading down this road. I'll
tell you a fun story about Big Bethel. With Big Bethel,
one day after their insurance policy lapsed, the church caught
on fire and the church was nearly destroyed. Two members
(11:48):
of the choir, who were also Sunday school teachers, came
together and wrote a play called Heaven Bound to try
to raise money to rebuild the church. And not only
did that happens now and it's ninety fourth year became
the most successful off Broadway play in US history. By
(12:10):
the nineteen seventies, over a million people had seen it.
I went and saw it this.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Past year, really incredibly.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
I guess like, if you're around that long, it's for
a reason.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, these.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Are you know, Sunday school teachers who want to make
some positive difference. And they did.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
They did, they did, They did, definitely did Another thing.
This is the church form Martin Uther King was. He
started out right here in this area. This is where
he's from. He grew up here in everything. His father
was a pastor too. Evan, He's a Baptist church. Talk
about that his father was a pastor and he became
the pastor, and that's where it all started with him.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Yes, and his grandfather too, his grandfather there, so you know,
Martin Luther King Junior was born in a relatively like
you know, larger house especially for the era and for blacks.
Auburn Avenue, the Bertham and across the street and really
(13:06):
surrounding it are double shotgun rowhouses. This is like socioeconomic
diversity really, so not just next door, but on his
way to walk to the church where his grandfather and
his father and he ultimately preached, and Martin Luther King,
you know, it was just at this time he was
(13:27):
a young boy, I mean playing basketball, playing hide and seek,
you know, going to school, walking to church, he was
seeing a different slice of life than what he knew,
as you know, a family of prominent leadership and really
of enough affluence, especially compared to others. And that's where
(13:48):
these you know, worldviews started to be formed. But yeah,
Ebenezer is definitely a cornerstone I would say, you know
in this country, I'm certainly here into you.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Know, I wonder, you know what the imprint he made
on this community as a whole. Had he not been
who he was and died like he did and everything,
would it be the same.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Well, the leaders of the civil rights movement and those
who supported and made success possible, we're of this neighborhood, okay,
And so I don't know if you can separate the two.
It's like, you know, in the words of Gary palmeranc
who wrote Where Peachtree Suite, Where Pea Tree Meet Sweet Auburn,
(14:34):
and who also wrote the foreword to Civil sits like
in the South, you are who your family is, right right,
And it's like you also are you are who you
are from where you come, meaning your neighborhood. And so,
you know, the civil rights movement in many ways found
its birthplace here in Atlanta because of you know, the
(14:55):
Kings and John Wesley Dobbs and you know any others.
And so I can't really answer that question, but I
think that they go hand in hand.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
You go to too, that church, you can go in
there now, and of course there's a new church down
besides it, but you're going to the old church. You're
sitting there in the fellowship hall, in the basement of somewhere.
It's right in the basement. I think and used to
think about all the meetings that happened there. You think
about everything went on there that that's fascinating. To go listen.
You want to sit in the quiet of that church,
just listen.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
And this is why there's also a call for preservation.
But yes, you can go there. Where you can't go
right now is the Butler Street YMCA because it's in
a complete state of disrepair. That was Atlanta's Black City Hall,
and it's also where the Hungry Club Forum had its
program in the basement, and black and white Atlanta came
(15:46):
together there. If you were a politician, you went through
the Butler Street YMCA, you know, and I'm talking about
a white politician to either get elected or be re elected.
But it's also a place where you could, like you know,
have a good conversation, share, learn, experience culture. And that
(16:09):
Hungry Club Forum was broadcast on the radio. People like
the radio.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
People like people like the radio. Back then. The building
it's right down the street, it's right here, but not
used now it's still innocence in needs repair and civil.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Sites is really a call to action for preservation. It's
a celebration of people, but you know, like we need
we definitely need to do a better job of taking
care of this historic fabric.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Oh yeah, absolutely, we have to have this history. We
can't the city. The city's great, it's beautiful. All their
news things they're doing, they can't close in and on this.
They can't close in on this one. They've got to
keep this one separate. This one is so vital to
what John, You've.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Brought up a really great point because so I moved
to Atlanta about thirty years ago, and I have seen
Sweet Auburn in a place of peril, as named by
the Georgisers, right. I've seen it be in this state
of disrepair, and fortunately it's really starting to reach a
(17:17):
point to where you can see conspicuous success, which is
really this state of flux. And it's what you're talking about.
It's like you want it to be successful in preservation
activity and you know, cultural development, all these other things,
but you have to be careful about what new investment
(17:40):
in new development may do. I am a historic preservationist,
but I'm also pro development if that development is thoughtful, caring, responsible,
you know, designed with you know, intent. So I think
that we've got an opportunity to have both. There are
a lot of vacant parking lots down here, but let's
(18:00):
not tear down our history, let's build upon it.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
I agree one hundred percent. You mentioned a moment ago
like radio and this old radio station is here. Now
talk about that that because that also has a C. J.
Walker Company was in there, and Martin Luther King's first
office I believe was in there too. That's building down
in this area too.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Prince Hall Masonic Lodge. This building is incredibly important. It's
also really a through line in the books of sites.
It was home to SCLC, their first office, and doctor
King's office W. E. R. D At you know, the
(18:40):
first black radio station, Madam C. J. Walker where now
recy De Forrest has you know, reinterpreted that as a
place that you can walk into. The really encouraging news
is that the Prince Hall Masons have begun a historic
preservation of this building. One of they're more notable or
(19:01):
at least well known Mason's. John Lewis as Congressman, was
able to get the building included within the Martin Luther
King National Historic Park. And now this preservation is happening,
people will be able to come visit it. As interpreted
by the National Park Service. You'll be able to spend
(19:22):
time inside that building and I think probably be able
to have in host events if your in there.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Great and the radio station included.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
The radio station is you know, it's there that's maintained
by Racy and it's a space within that building, not
part of let's say, the Park Service, but still included.
And I like the fact that it's independent. So much
of the success in Sweet Auburn comes from entrepreneurship. I
(19:53):
actually have a degree in entrepreneurship, and I am one
thousand percent convinced that you do not have to start
a business be an entrepreneur. I think it is a
spirit and it was certainly palpable during the Civil rights movement,
or we would not have found success. And it is
clearly evident in a very fun and even flamboyant, an
articulate and historic way with Reesy.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Yeah, oh yes, yes, he is. He's wonderful, he's I
met him, he is, he's fascinated, tot's talk to just
hours you spent with him, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
He's fascinating and great taste of music.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
He does have a great haste of music. Yeah. So
the book is civil side Sweet Auburn. It's by University
of Georgia Press. And it took you eight years to
write this eight years. I can see the way it
took so long because this neighborhood is so much the
neighborhood it would take eight years to cover it.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
And I'm a slow reader.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Well me too.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Well, I think it's funny because it did take a
long time. Yeah, and it took the time that you
know was needed in hindsight, like thinking back, I'm pretty
sure I wasn't really fully ready or able to write
it until the fifth year. Yeah, and I've not lived,
you know, basically enough. I've not seen enough, I've not
(21:04):
read enough. I've not spent you know, every single day
in Sweet Auburn, you know, at least work week wise
for for eight years. Right, I'm proud of the work.
I am really happy with the relationship with the University
of Georgia Press and also Georgia Humanity is at co publication.
You know, what's happening in the world right now is
(21:27):
is in part a defunding of the humanities. And the
problem with that is that if you defund the humanities,
you're defunding humanity. Humanities is our way of understanding each
other as human, you know, socially and otherwise. It's it's
important to be able to have you know, arts and
(21:49):
culture and share history and so that they came together
to help put out this book is meaningful not just
to me, but I think and hope for many more.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Good good It's just wonderful. Civil Sizes is a book
and Sweet allbanis by Gene Kangas. Who's here. Tell us
about a little bit more about this place we're in now,
because this is something's really great. It's where people come
and do work. Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
So much so. The Constellations, which will celebrate our seven
year anniversary June first, is a civic and socially based
shared workspace, so think social entrepreneurs, you know, people who
are coming together to make a positive difference in the world.
They have private offices here. Also, we do about two
(22:31):
hundred meetings and events a year. And the studio that
we're in District Studio is a place not just for
original content creation, but for capturing war histories, and we
share it with community or organizations, nonprofits and others that
want to help, you know, share their voice. It's really
(22:52):
important for us here at Constellations. The work that's happening
here is wonderful, but unless it goes beyond these walls,
it's not making the type of impact it can. And
so like we want to share the studio, and yeah,
thank you for.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Asking sure, and should somebody is your website with people?
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Should go Constellations dot community if you want to learn
more about what we're up to at the Southern School
book Building and Civil Sites dot com sights.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Gene, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thank you.
That's Gene Kansas, author of Civil Sites, a book about
Sweet Auburn, a journey through Atlanta's national treaser. Before leaving
the neighborhood, I visited with re cd Forest, who's a
curator at the CJ. Walker Beauty Museum, which is also
the home of er D and Martin Luther King Junior's
first office. Here's rec tell me about this place. This
is the battle CJ. Walker's shop right here.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
Who we are now, we're sitting inside in the original
Madam cz working beauty shop from the nineteen forties. Most
people a under the impression that she worked here for
Madam was not a stylist, So you woul learned this
system and go back to your community.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
And open up at Walker beauty shops.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Oh, one of the at and that's a location.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
How long was this empty? You know? I don't know, really.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
I watched I Discover with the Space thirty years ago.
At that time, I had the privilege of traveling internationally
as a makeup artist and hair starters. But I had
a salon in Atlanta, and back from a trip, I'm
riding around. I'm a little convertible. I turned the corner.
I see Madame C. J. Walker on the window. So
I slam on my bricks, get out of the car,
walked over to the glass window and just start touching it.
And I could tell by the font and the ink
(24:19):
that it had been there for some years, but I
had no idea how long.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
That's amazing. And the original the radio station was upstairs.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Two years into me getting the lease.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
Black woman from the neighborhood sticks with heady in and says,
mister rec did you know the first black on radio
stage is directly about this beauty shop. She said, when
she was a little girl, she could hear the music
spilling out of the window on her way to school.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
It was word radio.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
That's the origin of the slang expression word.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
And Martin Luther King's first office was right here, right there,
right there.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
To headquarters for SCLC is on the other side of
that great wall of final record.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Ye, standing on the corner right there. Oh my goodness.
This is a great place. Great hanging on the block. Yeah,
he is, well, this is great. This is a great place.
I'm glad I stop by here s great. Where should
people come if they want to come see it?
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Fifty four Hilliard h I L L I A R
D Street, Northeast three oh three one two Okay, And
you have a website. Social media Instagram is w E
R D Studio at l The website is Madame Cjwalker
Museum dot com.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
That's Recydforest, curator of the C. J. Walker Beauty Museum.
I want to thank recy and Gene Kansas, author of
civil Sites, for being on my show. If you have
questions of comments about today's show, you can email me
John Clarke at Gorgianewsnetwork dot com. Thanks for listening. I'll
talk to you next week right here in your favorite
local radio station on Georgia Focus
Welcome to Georgia Focus. I'm John Clark in the Georgia
News Network. The Sweet Auburn Historic District in Atlanta is
the birthplace of Martin Luther King Junior and the civil
rights movement. What's the wealthiest Black neighborhood in the world.
Sweet Auburn now faces social, commercial, and urban challenges that
threaten this historic spaces with demolition as Atlanta grows. I
recently visited Sweet Auburn to talk with Gene Kansas, the
author of Civil Sits, a journey through Atlanta's National Treasurer.
(00:30):
This book is full of good stuff. It's really good.
How long did it take you to write this book?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Only eight years? Only eight It's an incredible history, though,
about the remarkable people who came together to find success
on behalf of the world in the civil rights movement
here in Sweet Auburn and Atlanta birthplace in the civil
rights movement. And yeah, thank you for having me on
the ship.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Yeah, thank you for being here, for having me here
to small studio, a radio studio that talk about this
building here where you're based out of talk about your
building here.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Right the room we're in right now is called the
Fifth District studio and homage to the Lake Congressman John
Lewis and the district he served. The building itself. This
building was built in nineteen ten as the Southern School
Book Building, a book warehouse the wholesale books of the
school system. It was designed by Neil Read, famous Atlanta architect. Also,
(01:29):
you know, in historic preservation parlance, there's something called periods
of significance. So when was a building its most historically significant,
And for this building, it was in the early and
mid nineteen sixties when the Student Non Violent Coordinating Committee,
chaired by then twenty three year old John Lewis, had
(01:51):
a headquarters here. And so think about like John Lewis,
Ella Baker Rosen, Pope Bayard Rust and Julian Bond, Stuart Udents.
This is where the leadership of the movement was not
just this building, but Sweet Auburn on the whole. You
know Martin Luther King and selc at the Prince All
Masonic Lodge. But every building here has stories that are contributing.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
This neighborhood is where it all happened right here, and
so many people like you mentioned the names of the
people that just got together they started civil rights movement.
It started right here in this strict, relatively small neighborhood
compared to the whole city, and it went worldwide. It
just went worldwide. Yes, it's amazing.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
And it took me eight years to write this book,
in part because the history in many ways is hidden
and history is exclusionary in some cases, and specifically to
this history, the unsung, unknown and up underrepresented heroes and
(02:59):
heroines of the movement are not the ones that we
know about women, in particular black women. True, and also
just hundreds of thousands of everyday heroes that had to
come together. And so it took a lot of effort
to go and you know, find these people hiding in history.
And then when I did, it became so much more alive,
(03:21):
not just like for the sake of the civil rights
movement and understanding that, but also for Atlanta and for
humanity on the whole.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
This even goes all down the street. This is one place,
and the next door you have the one hundred Black
Men of Atlanta. And then you had the daily world
talk about those buildings, are they still there? They still
off still in that place.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
So with one hundred black men, which is directly next
door to where we are at the Southern School Book Building. Yes,
they are there. The building's first kind of period of
significance though, was as Atlanta's first black bookstore. And then
you have the Daily World Building. The Daily World newspaper,
(04:05):
the country's oldest black newspaper up to a point in time,
was there until March fourteenth, two thousand and eight, when
the tornado hit and that card that six mile path
of destruction from CNN Center to Oakland Cemetery down Auburn Avenue,
and it forced The Daily World out of there. It
(04:25):
also ripped the roof off and it rained inside, and
the building was severely damaged, and it sat there kind
of languishing for years. A developer applied for a demolition permit,
and that's when I kind of started paying attention. I'd
moved to Atlanta in nineteen ninety five at this point
in time, they were around twenty ten when I started
(04:45):
really reading and learning more about these community, not just citizens,
but activists, really people who cared about saving this history,
coming together eleven hundred people to deny a demo permit petition,
and then the city of Atlanta, through the Atlanta Urbansign Commission,
unanimously denying it as well. I was like, wow, this
(05:07):
is pretty important. So the Daily World building does not
have the Atlanta Daily World newspaper in it, but what
it has is a legacy and it has a lesson
to share with others. And the Sweet Auburn Historic District
on the whole designated in nineteen seventy six as a
(05:30):
landmark district. Since then, almost half of the historic structure
has been lost to things like tornadoes or the wrecking ball,
or demolition via neglect. And if we continue along this
path and trajectory, by the time that people who are
born today or my age, you won't have any evidence
of the birthplace of civil rights movement, and you'll also
(05:50):
lose what these buildings represent, which is civil and human rights.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Is there a way we can do something now to
change it to stop that from happening?
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Well, yeah, I mean I think that learn more about
what's happening here civil sites is a definitive resource. But
also there's some great groups here in Atlanta. I know
we are both fond of the Georgia Truster Historic Preservation
and the programming that they do the Atlanta Preservation Center.
Also just coming down and visiting the businesses. Come for
(06:24):
lunch at the Curve Market. Grab something that's sweet. Auburn
Bread Company. Visit the Auburn Avenue Research Library. See some art.
Georgia State University is surroundings right here, right here. There's
like forty thousand students downtown here. You know, it's vibrant.
It does require a little bit of work to learn
(06:44):
about what you're seeing. And that's where Civil Sites comes
in because it takes that hidden history and puts it
right on these pages.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
It really does. I mean, you go history, you go
bisection of the neighborhood. This station is how many sections
are there this whole neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Well, in Civil Sites, we can learn about forty five
different historic sites, and you know, even some that are adjacent,
like Heron's Restaurant, which was the first restaurant in Atlanta
to integrate voluntarily, by the way, doesn't exist anymore in
(07:22):
its form. It's now the Ballser Theater and at Heron's,
which is home to theatrical outlet, a theater company. The
thing that's like kind of cool though, if like you
want to like pick up and read that story. It
starts in pre World War One Italy and then it
comes here and you have the civil rights movement, and
(07:43):
then you have like this historic preservation, a contemporary program
of a theater. It's got centiment, roles, it's got all
kinds of things wrapped into it. But you know, all
of these buildings have these stories because they have been
literally embodied by people who are living lives, and we
all have stories to share. Yeah, you all do it
for a living, and it's welcome things.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
We like doing it. One building that interested me across
from here, the White Building, the Atlanta the Life Building.
Is that building empty, a beautiful building.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
It's gorgeous. Buildings that are vacant are a lot more
susceptible to problems, right, right. I mean it's why, you know,
if you want to kind of use a rubber meets
the road example, that's why insurance is more when you
have a vacancy.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Right.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
But yeah, I mean that building, the Atlanta Life Insurance
Company was founded by Alonzo Herndon. Alonzo Herndon was born enslaved.
His father was his owner and let that kind of
sink in, right, and then he and his mother were
slash like, you know, both emancipated and kicked out of
(08:54):
the house. He at a young age, came up a
print to a barber in Kawita County, ended up moving
to Atlanta and making a long and impressive and inspiring
story short, he started buying the Benevolent Society of Churches.
(09:15):
He also had barber shops that were renowned for their
beauty and success called Crystal Palace. But the loonzo Harden
started buying the Benevolent Societies of Churches, which is basically
like the forerunner of precursor to insurance companies, and grew
that into the largest black business in the United States.
(09:36):
Maybe more so than that though. What was provided by
that company, which was financial independence for blacks, the ability
to have some form of protection and conservation and care,
was monumental. And then the company also was the anonymous
funder of the Civil rights movement. But the building, to
(09:59):
your point, is sitting there vacant and crumbling, and it
would be a tragedy if that fell into the category
of another historic structure loss in this district.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Right right right, that would be that is a beautiful building,
and it's big. It's big. It's next to a Georgia
State University building next to it, and it tells it's
a little story about but it's right, it's beautiful.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
And it's also next to a vacant parking lot that
you used to have the Rucker building that was destroyed.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Oh man, what about the churches? And we get to
Martin Luther King in a minute, because he had was
from a church here. The churches, there's one up here,
the one that says Jesus saves up there that's lit
up at night too, bethl Big Bethel, Yeah, that's one
that that church and then the oven is yeah, talk
about that.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Big Bethel is Atlanta's oldest Black church. And you know,
churches is really the foundational cornerstone of not only Sweet Auburn,
but really the civil rights movement. And Big Bethel Morris
Brown College was born in its basement, right. I mean
you have to have the churches, the schools, the fraternal organizations,
(11:01):
the entrepreneurship and the fund that Sweet Auburn had. We're
talking about a district in a neighborhood that was with
commercial and cultural nexus for blacks in this country, you know.
But Big Bethel, you know, embodied so much of this.
It was also a place where John Wesley Dobbs called
for voter registration. You know, getting blacks on the voting
(11:22):
roles ultimately provided a political power that allowed for laws
to be changed and start leading down this road. I'll
tell you a fun story about Big Bethel. With Big Bethel,
one day after their insurance policy lapsed, the church caught
on fire and the church was nearly destroyed. Two members
(11:48):
of the choir, who were also Sunday school teachers, came
together and wrote a play called Heaven Bound to try
to raise money to rebuild the church. And not only
did that happens now and it's ninety fourth year became
the most successful off Broadway play in US history. By
(12:10):
the nineteen seventies, over a million people had seen it.
I went and saw it this.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Past year, really incredibly.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
I guess like, if you're around that long, it's for
a reason.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, these.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Are you know, Sunday school teachers who want to make
some positive difference. And they did.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
They did, they did, They did, definitely did Another thing.
This is the church form Martin Uther King was. He
started out right here in this area. This is where
he's from. He grew up here in everything. His father
was a pastor too. Evan, He's a Baptist church. Talk
about that his father was a pastor and he became
the pastor, and that's where it all started with him.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Yes, and his grandfather too, his grandfather there, so you know,
Martin Luther King Junior was born in a relatively like
you know, larger house especially for the era and for blacks.
Auburn Avenue, the Bertham and across the street and really
(13:06):
surrounding it are double shotgun rowhouses. This is like socioeconomic
diversity really, so not just next door, but on his
way to walk to the church where his grandfather and
his father and he ultimately preached, and Martin Luther King,
you know, it was just at this time he was
(13:27):
a young boy, I mean playing basketball, playing hide and seek,
you know, going to school, walking to church, he was
seeing a different slice of life than what he knew,
as you know, a family of prominent leadership and really
of enough affluence, especially compared to others. And that's where
(13:48):
these you know, worldviews started to be formed. But yeah,
Ebenezer is definitely a cornerstone I would say, you know
in this country, I'm certainly here into you.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Know, I wonder, you know what the imprint he made
on this community as a whole. Had he not been
who he was and died like he did and everything,
would it be the same.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Well, the leaders of the civil rights movement and those
who supported and made success possible, we're of this neighborhood, okay,
And so I don't know if you can separate the two.
It's like, you know, in the words of Gary palmeranc
who wrote Where Peachtree Suite, Where Pea Tree Meet Sweet Auburn,
(14:34):
and who also wrote the foreword to Civil sits like
in the South, you are who your family is, right right,
And it's like you also are you are who you
are from where you come, meaning your neighborhood. And so,
you know, the civil rights movement in many ways found
its birthplace here in Atlanta because of you know, the
(14:55):
Kings and John Wesley Dobbs and you know any others.
And so I can't really answer that question, but I
think that they go hand in hand.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
You go to too, that church, you can go in
there now, and of course there's a new church down
besides it, but you're going to the old church. You're
sitting there in the fellowship hall, in the basement of somewhere.
It's right in the basement. I think and used to
think about all the meetings that happened there. You think
about everything went on there that that's fascinating. To go listen.
You want to sit in the quiet of that church,
just listen.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
And this is why there's also a call for preservation.
But yes, you can go there. Where you can't go
right now is the Butler Street YMCA because it's in
a complete state of disrepair. That was Atlanta's Black City Hall,
and it's also where the Hungry Club Forum had its
program in the basement, and black and white Atlanta came
(15:46):
together there. If you were a politician, you went through
the Butler Street YMCA, you know, and I'm talking about
a white politician to either get elected or be re elected.
But it's also a place where you could, like you know,
have a good conversation, share, learn, experience culture. And that
(16:09):
Hungry Club Forum was broadcast on the radio. People like
the radio.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
People like people like the radio. Back then. The building
it's right down the street, it's right here, but not
used now it's still innocence in needs repair and civil.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Sites is really a call to action for preservation. It's
a celebration of people, but you know, like we need
we definitely need to do a better job of taking
care of this historic fabric.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Oh yeah, absolutely, we have to have this history. We
can't the city. The city's great, it's beautiful. All their
news things they're doing, they can't close in and on this.
They can't close in on this one. They've got to
keep this one separate. This one is so vital to
what John, You've.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Brought up a really great point because so I moved
to Atlanta about thirty years ago, and I have seen
Sweet Auburn in a place of peril, as named by
the Georgisers, right. I've seen it be in this state
of disrepair, and fortunately it's really starting to reach a
(17:17):
point to where you can see conspicuous success, which is
really this state of flux. And it's what you're talking about.
It's like you want it to be successful in preservation
activity and you know, cultural development, all these other things,
but you have to be careful about what new investment
(17:40):
in new development may do. I am a historic preservationist,
but I'm also pro development if that development is thoughtful, caring, responsible,
you know, designed with you know, intent. So I think
that we've got an opportunity to have both. There are
a lot of vacant parking lots down here, but let's
(18:00):
not tear down our history, let's build upon it.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
I agree one hundred percent. You mentioned a moment ago
like radio and this old radio station is here. Now
talk about that that because that also has a C. J.
Walker Company was in there, and Martin Luther King's first
office I believe was in there too. That's building down
in this area too.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Prince Hall Masonic Lodge. This building is incredibly important. It's
also really a through line in the books of sites.
It was home to SCLC, their first office, and doctor
King's office W. E. R. D At you know, the
(18:40):
first black radio station, Madam C. J. Walker where now
recy De Forrest has you know, reinterpreted that as a
place that you can walk into. The really encouraging news
is that the Prince Hall Masons have begun a historic
preservation of this building. One of they're more notable or
(19:01):
at least well known Mason's. John Lewis as Congressman, was
able to get the building included within the Martin Luther
King National Historic Park. And now this preservation is happening,
people will be able to come visit it. As interpreted
by the National Park Service. You'll be able to spend
(19:22):
time inside that building and I think probably be able
to have in host events if your in there.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Great and the radio station included.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
The radio station is you know, it's there that's maintained
by Racy and it's a space within that building, not
part of let's say, the Park Service, but still included.
And I like the fact that it's independent. So much
of the success in Sweet Auburn comes from entrepreneurship. I
(19:53):
actually have a degree in entrepreneurship, and I am one
thousand percent convinced that you do not have to start
a business be an entrepreneur. I think it is a
spirit and it was certainly palpable during the Civil rights movement,
or we would not have found success. And it is
clearly evident in a very fun and even flamboyant, an
articulate and historic way with Reesy.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Yeah, oh yes, yes, he is. He's wonderful, he's I
met him, he is, he's fascinated, tot's talk to just
hours you spent with him, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
He's fascinating and great taste of music.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
He does have a great haste of music. Yeah. So
the book is civil side Sweet Auburn. It's by University
of Georgia Press. And it took you eight years to
write this eight years. I can see the way it
took so long because this neighborhood is so much the
neighborhood it would take eight years to cover it.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
And I'm a slow reader.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Well me too.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Well, I think it's funny because it did take a
long time. Yeah, and it took the time that you
know was needed in hindsight, like thinking back, I'm pretty
sure I wasn't really fully ready or able to write
it until the fifth year. Yeah, and I've not lived,
you know, basically enough. I've not seen enough, I've not
(21:04):
read enough. I've not spent you know, every single day
in Sweet Auburn, you know, at least work week wise
for for eight years. Right, I'm proud of the work.
I am really happy with the relationship with the University
of Georgia Press and also Georgia Humanity is at co publication.
You know, what's happening in the world right now is
(21:27):
is in part a defunding of the humanities. And the
problem with that is that if you defund the humanities,
you're defunding humanity. Humanities is our way of understanding each
other as human, you know, socially and otherwise. It's it's
important to be able to have you know, arts and
(21:49):
culture and share history and so that they came together
to help put out this book is meaningful not just
to me, but I think and hope for many more.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Good good It's just wonderful. Civil Sizes is a book
and Sweet allbanis by Gene Kangas. Who's here. Tell us
about a little bit more about this place we're in now,
because this is something's really great. It's where people come
and do work. Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
So much so. The Constellations, which will celebrate our seven
year anniversary June first, is a civic and socially based
shared workspace, so think social entrepreneurs, you know, people who
are coming together to make a positive difference in the world.
They have private offices here. Also, we do about two
(22:31):
hundred meetings and events a year. And the studio that
we're in District Studio is a place not just for
original content creation, but for capturing war histories, and we
share it with community or organizations, nonprofits and others that
want to help, you know, share their voice. It's really
(22:52):
important for us here at Constellations. The work that's happening
here is wonderful, but unless it goes beyond these walls,
it's not making the type of impact it can. And
so like we want to share the studio, and yeah,
thank you for.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Asking sure, and should somebody is your website with people?
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Should go Constellations dot community if you want to learn
more about what we're up to at the Southern School
book Building and Civil Sites dot com sights.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Gene, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thank you.
That's Gene Kansas, author of Civil Sites, a book about
Sweet Auburn, a journey through Atlanta's national treaser. Before leaving
the neighborhood, I visited with re cd Forest, who's a
curator at the CJ. Walker Beauty Museum, which is also
the home of er D and Martin Luther King Junior's
first office. Here's rec tell me about this place. This
is the battle CJ. Walker's shop right here.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
Who we are now, we're sitting inside in the original
Madam cz working beauty shop from the nineteen forties. Most
people a under the impression that she worked here for
Madam was not a stylist, So you woul learned this
system and go back to your community.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
And open up at Walker beauty shops.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Oh, one of the at and that's a location.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
How long was this empty? You know? I don't know, really.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
I watched I Discover with the Space thirty years ago.
At that time, I had the privilege of traveling internationally
as a makeup artist and hair starters. But I had
a salon in Atlanta, and back from a trip, I'm
riding around. I'm a little convertible. I turned the corner.
I see Madame C. J. Walker on the window. So
I slam on my bricks, get out of the car,
walked over to the glass window and just start touching it.
And I could tell by the font and the ink
(24:19):
that it had been there for some years, but I
had no idea how long.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
That's amazing. And the original the radio station was upstairs.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Two years into me getting the lease.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
Black woman from the neighborhood sticks with heady in and says,
mister rec did you know the first black on radio
stage is directly about this beauty shop. She said, when
she was a little girl, she could hear the music
spilling out of the window on her way to school.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
It was word radio.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
That's the origin of the slang expression word.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
And Martin Luther King's first office was right here, right there,
right there.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
To headquarters for SCLC is on the other side of
that great wall of final record.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Ye, standing on the corner right there. Oh my goodness.
This is a great place. Great hanging on the block. Yeah,
he is, well, this is great. This is a great place.
I'm glad I stop by here s great. Where should
people come if they want to come see it?
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Fifty four Hilliard h I L L I A R
D Street, Northeast three oh three one two Okay, And
you have a website. Social media Instagram is w E
R D Studio at l The website is Madame Cjwalker
Museum dot com.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
That's Recydforest, curator of the C. J. Walker Beauty Museum.
I want to thank recy and Gene Kansas, author of
civil Sites, for being on my show. If you have
questions of comments about today's show, you can email me
John Clarke at Gorgianewsnetwork dot com. Thanks for listening. I'll
talk to you next week right here in your favorite
local radio station on Georgia Focus
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