1-26-25 - David Cox

On tonight's show, Jim and Scott interviewed David Cox, a professional forester and owner of Cox Forestry. David is a specialist in timber sales, timber management plans, and wildlife habitat improvement.   

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (01:00):
Good evening, everyone, Gem Straighter here and man do we
have a very educational and informative show for you tonight.
I've got David Cox on with us tonight. He's with
Cox Forestry Consulting. And if you love wildlife, or if
you're a farmer or a landowner that has property where

(01:21):
you have forestry needs, whether it's to cut some timber
or manage your property, he's the man and we've got
him on with us tonight and we're going to go
through all phases of forestry management. By that, I mean,
you know, why cut timber? What can you do to

(01:42):
get the most bang for your buck out of your timber?
What do you want to cut and not cut to
help the wildlife on your property? What can you do
to augment access to your property?

Speaker 3 (01:56):
What kind of.

Speaker 2 (01:58):
Logging roads do you want to have able you to
access in or hunter fish on your property. These are
all things we're going to cover tonight. And it's the
program I wanted to do for a long long time.
So I'm delighted to have David on with us. He's
done consulting with some friends of mine and he's very,
very knowledgeable about what he is doing. So we're going

(02:21):
to talk about all those things. And Scott, I know
this is a great passion of yours, so I know
you're looking forward to this as much as I am.

Speaker 4 (02:31):
The greatest part about the program is that if folks
don't have any clue on how to manage their property,
especially when it comes to the regards of harvesting and
managing their timber, we have the right person with the
right title with us, and that is to have a consultor,
and a lot of people are going to be able

(02:53):
to benefit not only economically, but improve their wildlife habitat
and how the infrastructure on farm can better serve them
when they utilize David talks and what he has to offer.

Speaker 2 (03:06):
Absolutely, So, folks, I'm gonna go straight to break here
because we got so much to talk about. Coming back
from break, we'll introduce David and let you get to
know a little bit about him.

Speaker 3 (03:16):
And why he's in the business.

Speaker 2 (03:18):
He's very passionate about it, and that passion takes you
to a great place when you're talking to somebody because
obviously they're in business because they truly care about forestry.
So stick with us. We'll be back right after this break.
It's presented by SMI Marine. Go see him. They'll take
great care of you, and remember as I always say,

(03:38):
you'll never get soaked by my friends at SMI all right,
folks again tonight we're talking forestry management with David Cox, who,
interestingly enough, is David coxforestry dot com if you want
to check them out. David, welcome to the show.

Speaker 5 (03:56):
Thank you, thanks for having me on.

Speaker 2 (03:58):
And i'd like you to tell a little bit about yourself,
why you're so passionate about the industry and your journey
to where you are today.

Speaker 5 (04:07):
Well, I decided to study forestry at UK, have a
Bachelor's of Science in forestry from Kentucky. And I really
I grew up. I was telling Jim, I have a
cabinet Lake Camberlin. I grew up in the outdoors and
I didn't have thought of sitting in a cubicle or
an office job. Scared me to death. And I found

(04:27):
forestry and ran with it and it was one of
the best decisions I ever made. You know, Now, I
spend my office is the woods for the most part,
and every day I'm out in the woods with landowners,
working with them to accomplish whatever goal they have out
in their forests, which can be a lot of different things.
It's not it's a dynamic situation, you know, and I

(04:49):
love it. So I know you all brought me on
you to get into the weeds of things, you know,
talk about I do. I specialize in timber sales, timber
invant tories, timber management plans. You can do timber trespass.
If somebody steals timber from you, you can have a
forester like me or other consultants come out and inventory

(05:12):
what was stolen from you, you know, to get your damages,
any anything timber related. Consulting forester or like myself is
going to be the guy to have out on your farm.

Speaker 2 (05:22):
And you were fortunate enough to have a mentor who
I think you probably would like to talk about a
little bit.

Speaker 3 (05:28):
And you've been in business quite some time.

Speaker 5 (05:30):
Now, Yeah, I mean my mentor was Randy Moser of
Moser Woodland Services in Indiana, and we do things a
little differently, me and Randy and I. But he was
a really good guy and really he provided me with
a great opportunity to really take over his company and
get his client base. And it was something that it
was a good opportunity for me to skip some of

(05:51):
the latter claiming that some of the people might have
to go to go through and now you know, I've
been a consultant for almost eleven years and yeah, somewhere
around there, and uh and it really changed my life.
And Randy his family owned a sawmill forever and he
went to Purdue, was a Purdue forester. Is his father

(06:13):
passed away in a forestry accident. And after that, Uh,
he just kind of shut shut the mill down and
went out consulting on his own because he liked it
a lot better, like being in the woods. And uh, yeah,
he I was very fortunate to meet him, and I'm
happy to be following his footsteps.

Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yes, sir, now you uh cover whte swats? I mean
the number of class you have. Can you tell folks
a little bit about, you know where in the state
and now the state that you're currently manager or have
in recent years, I've worked.

Speaker 5 (06:47):
All over the city of Kentucky from the mountains in
eastern Kentucky too. I have a timber sale going on
right now in Todd County, Kentucky and western Kentucky. And uh, Randy,
my predecessor, he he was in southern Indiana and I
do a lot of work in southern Indiana. Still in
the Knives regions. But I'll work anywhere for the right client,
you know, and you know the right job. But I

(07:10):
cover a lot of ground. You put a lot of
miles on your feet and on your car.

Speaker 2 (07:14):
Yes, sir Scott, I know you've got a ton of questions.
I'm gonna let you lead in here and then we'll
continue through this conversation because it's it's a great industry,
is something that touches so many people.

Speaker 4 (07:28):
So many people are afraid and and just don't understand
at times how important a consulting forester can be to them.
When we think about how we invest our money a
lot of times at stocks and bonds and CDs, and
we're projecting things, and there's so many different ways that

(07:49):
people that already own land can build their network up
because of the management that they've done with their forest.
But what caught my ear when you were talking there, David,
how you can help consult other individuals on their loss
and right out of the gate with your first hand
experience in mind, let's talk to people about how important

(08:09):
it is to have a good deed and a solid
property line, not just with with your property, but maybe
even your neighbors, and how that can play a big
part of consulting and before you want to give advice
or after advice has been given, where they can even
run into problems to not even knowing where the legal
line is.

Speaker 5 (08:31):
Yeah, I mean having Obviously, having a good survey in
your property is something that I think everybody should do.
It sure makes my job a lot easier when I
have to go out and mark property boundaries. It's when
I was talking about timber trespass earlier. Obviously, sometimes that
can be accidental. It's not always a you know, logger
jump in the line on purpose to take a tree

(08:52):
here and there, and that comes from not having clearly
defined boundaries. As a I'm not a licensed surveyor, so
there's definitely times where I've had to work with the
surveyor in certain situations where there's the lines aren't clear,
but typically we can we can get out and market.
Ninety nine percent of time we're able to get out
there and mark a clear timber boundary and get your

(09:13):
lines painted to so you know, you know that you're
operating on your legal property and not you're not going
to step on your neighbor's toes.

Speaker 4 (09:24):
And with the value of timber in Kentucky two. A
lot of times when timber is being harvested or when
someone's thinking about selling timber right out of the gate,
I think the most common way that people know how
to sell timber is sometimes to work with a logger
instead of allowing for the consultant to work with the

(09:47):
logging company or a team of people so that that
timber can be not only marketed, but also bring as
much value to the landowner that they have coming in
and sometimes of the years, when you start to look
at the history of how consulting companies or consulting foresters
have been viewed, there's times that that's not always fully

(10:11):
understood that that consultor is looking out for the best
interest of the individual that owns the timber and trying
to sell it. So tell them a little bit about
what your true goal is between the people that are
logging and the people that are buying the timber.

Speaker 5 (10:28):
Well, I think you really hit the nail on the
head when you I always remind my clients that I'm
you know, I'm working for them. I have really good
relationships with my timber buyers. I like most of them,
but I'm always representing my client. So when I go
and market timber sale. A big benefit of having somebody

(10:50):
like me come out is first you're going to meet
with me and talk about your goals for the property,
and and I'll be able to feel you out too
and kind of tell you what to expect from a
timber harvest. But when you have a forester out you,
you can be very selective about what you're taking and
how an area is going to be cut. At the
end of the day, you have you get a volume

(11:11):
and you have a volume summary of what you're selling,
and that's what's put out. Ninety percent of the time
we're doing you know, ninety nine percent of the time
we're doing bid sales. So you're putting together a package
and everything's marked, it's for sale, and you're you're putting
that out to bid and letting the most competitive buyer
get it. And uh, you know, when you do it
like that, you're going to attract good buyers because you know,

(11:33):
a bad actor is not going to be somebody that's
going to want to work with a forester. So you're
going to get a quality logger in there that their
forester has a relationship with, and before you put it
out to bid, you're going to get you'll talk with
me about you know what kind of price you're expecting,
and on all my bid sheets we don't. You don't

(11:54):
have to sell your timber if it doesn't meet the
minimum price, right, that's not something we mark it out
before we put the timer route to bid. Occasionally I've
done that, but you're you're never You're never forcing this selling.
And when you do sell, you're getting a down payment
up front, and all of the money from that bid
is paid to you before logging can start, so there's

(12:14):
no chasing down money after a sale. It's this gives
you the most control over a sale, and it makes
the landowners the most comfortable. Everything's everything's on the up
and up and.

Speaker 4 (12:27):
Uh the great the great part about when someone reaches
out to a consulting forester like yourself is a lot
of times that will lead to you having to meet
the individual on their property and that walk that you take,
or that time that you spend at the vehicle before
you start walking the property to assess it. It's a

(12:51):
fantastic time for the landowners in a lot of cases.
Sometimes it can be a multitude of people because some
lands are owned and buy more than one owner, and
this established that economic value, what's going on in the market,
what the trends have been, maybe what the future is
showing with it, as long as they understand too that

(13:14):
a lot of times people want to cut the temper
on their property for the economic value. But a lot
of forestry and forestry management in recent years has really
been focused a little bit different too, and a lot
of your work is where people can actually not only
gain a financial benefit, but they can also increase the
habitat management on their property with how succession will come

(13:37):
and opening up those canopies and putting the infrastructure on
the farm. So what would be the first step if
someone wanted to work with you on how you would
actually come out and evaluate their property to get their
goals and objectives into a package where you could explain
it to them. For that unknown landowner.

Speaker 5 (14:01):
The first step is definitely just meeting me out on
the property and walking it, like you said, because all
woods are different, they've been managed differently in the past
just based on their side index. They might be different
and what's growing there, so you can't really get a
good feel. People send me aerial photos, you know, is
a good example. And they want me to look at

(14:22):
their timber from that aerial photo and that's not you
have to have boots on the ground and see what's
growing and be there and really, really that's a big
thing about it is you want to meet the landowner
out at their farm because you want to know what
their goal is. Sometimes it's not just cutting timber and
making money, you know, and sometimes it is. And then
you you get you talk with them and get a
feel for it and maybe that's not the route they

(14:44):
want to go, or maybe it wasn't the route they
want to go, and then they do want to go
that route. So definitely, just meeting the landowner is the
first step calling forrester, getting you know, getting out on
the farm and you know, talking about your goals and
then a real not everybody does it, but getting a

(15:05):
timber management plan as a first step is a good
route to go. That's where you'll set your goals with
the forester and you can divide your property into stands
depending on you know, acreage, just different forest structures you
have already going on in your forest and manage those
all differently so you can get different habitat yeah, you know,

(15:28):
different diversity on your property and manage different areas in
different ways, getting a good a good management plan, getting
an inventory is that's the best first step in forestry.

Speaker 3 (15:44):
David, if there's nothing else that we discussed to die.

Speaker 2 (15:49):
One of the primary things I want to let people
know is by working with a forester like yourself, whether
they use you or somebody else, it helps folks know
the true value of what they've got, because I'm sorry,
there's horror stories out there about how someone will come
and give them a bid and after it's.

Speaker 3 (16:11):
Over what they found out.

Speaker 2 (16:13):
You know what, I had a whole lot more here
than I thought, and I didn't get properly compensated for it.

Speaker 5 (16:19):
Yes, you know, it's it's part of the forester's job
to obviously know timber markets and know how to market
it well, know the industry and out know know who
the right buyers are to market specific jobs for because
each from forest to forest you might have a different
product growing. You might have a big veneer sale on
one and on the other one it might be a
bunch of palette number. So knowing the timber markets and

(16:44):
getting that volume that's that is for sale and marked
is that's a big that's in the sale. That's what's everybody,
everybody's worried about until the sale is over, is what's
that price going to be right within within the constraints
of what the land under wants. Because anyway, but you
can you can go out and clearcut. We can talk
about clearcuts and civil culture later, but a lot of

(17:05):
times people don't want to do that. So you want
to maximize the value out of the timber that you're offering,
and that's a forester's job. And once you have those volumes,
I break it down by sent for board foot when
I'm going through it, and you mark different products and grades.
You obviously are going to keep your veneer separate, but
you get that price point and working with someone like me,

(17:26):
you you know you're gonna get top dollar. I mean,
a good way I tell my landowner is look like,
I'm going to work with you and mark your timber
the way you want. But the more money you make,
the more I'm gonna make. Ultimately, I work on a commission,
so I'm trying to maximize this value as much as
you are. You know, it's important to me as well.

Speaker 4 (17:42):
Something before we go to break something that's really important
about that too, David. I'm sure you've seen it is
a lot of times this is not money that just
straight out of someone's pocket. That those commissions will come
at the time of the sale. Is that Is that
pretty much how you offerate.

Speaker 5 (17:58):
Yes, yes, yeah, No, nobody owes me money upfront, you know,
you take you take commissions after the sales out of
the down payment. You can structure your contracts a lot
of different ways, but they're not paying upfront for a
timber sale other forestry, you know, like a timber management plan.
Sometimes people will go against that because yeah, I mean,

(18:19):
you know, you don't you don't get that for free.
It is a good start to having the best timber
sale you can have, but that would be more of
an out of pocket expense on it just a flat sale.
If you wanted to go forward, you get that commission
comes after the sale.

Speaker 2 (18:34):
And David, one thing that is into this, and this
is gonna be very brief, is that there's times when
you better be cutting or you're gonna lose money.

Speaker 3 (18:44):
Ice storms, drafts, uh. You've got an overview.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
Of those kinds of things and how that's going to
impact timber down the road, and would suspect that's a
real passion for you.

Speaker 3 (18:55):
Some helping people understand that.

Speaker 5 (18:57):
Yeah, I mean, you know, you always run the risk
if like a ornado or an ice storm or something
that's going to affect your timber no matter what, whether
you have an old growth forest or something young. A
lot of the time with forestry, we're just we're focused
on regeneration and if you can cut more frequently over time,
you're getting more volume out of that woods versus sometimes
letting forest get overmature. But both have benefits absolutely.

Speaker 2 (19:21):
All right, folks, gotta go to break. The break is
presented by Mall Silk Properties Heart Realty. Paul Thomas is
the broker there. He's got all kind of timberland for
sale as well as farms and vacation homes. Check out
the listings at mop h rtrealty dot com.

Speaker 3 (19:37):
All right, David, right there, full break.

Speaker 2 (19:40):
We were talking a little bit about how folks get
the best bank for the book out of what they're doing,
and tell them again a little bit more in depth
about how it works with you and how they receive
their money and how that trickles down into given them
the best bang for their book.

Speaker 5 (19:57):
Well, Ultimately you're you're taking a down payment. You can
structure payments differently. No matter what, you're always requiring the
money to be paid before logging can begin, so all
of that money goes into your pocket. I feel like
a lot of a lot of questions I get from
a landowner is what percentage of that is coming to me?
And what I can Right from the get go, I

(20:18):
can tell they're talking about shares logging, which is when
you you have a timber buyer come into your property,
cut the timber, and take it to the mill and
sell it, and then they split it with you based
on shares terms, whether it be fifty to fifty, sixty
forty whatever they've negotiated. It doesn't give you as much
control in there. You got to really know your timber buyer.
And there's plenty of good timber buyers out there that

(20:39):
I that I like and we trust to do that,
but you don't. We don't do it that way you're
getting you're getting all that money up front because there's
a lot of factors that go from the tree to
the mill that can influence what that price is going
to be for the log when it gets there, and
the and the percentage you're going to get out of it.
So we're always talking about stumpage price, which is the

(21:00):
price for standing timber, and that is what all of
that stumpage price is going to the landowner. And obviously
my commission comes out of that, but all of all
of that pricing go or money goes straight to the landowner.

Speaker 3 (21:14):
Yes, and that.

Speaker 4 (21:15):
While we're on the subjects of the of the economics
of it, what are some ways in which your consulting
service will also be a tax advantage to those getting
timbers cut on their property.

Speaker 5 (21:28):
David Well, timber is so timbers tax as long as
you've voted for a year, it's taxes long term capital gains.
So after you've voted for a year, you're getting the
long term capital gains. And then a forrester during a sale.
If you didn't establish a basis right when you got
the property, I can I can get you a timber

(21:49):
basis for what you're selling that is gonna it saves
you a lot on those capital gains because you end
up paying on the difference of what it's grown since
you acquired it or since you changed names last which
you give that to your CPA or something. It's gonna
save you a boatload of money on timber tex.

Speaker 3 (22:07):
How does that work exactly? Break that down a little better.

Speaker 5 (22:11):
Well, I won't share his name, but just like I
just said, yesterday, a client called me asking me for
his basis, and he ended up he got some He
bought land in twenty eighteen and ended up being a
lot more acreage than it said right when he got
the deed, So there was a bunch of porcelain on
there he didn't know he owned. We just had a
timber sale off of his property and he it was

(22:35):
for thirty thousand dollars roughly, and I estimated his value
in twenty eighteen at about like twenty four thousand dollars.
So when he goes based on your your income's gonna change.
You're gonna pay on the difference that between of what
it's gained over time versus paying on the whole sum
of money. So it saves you a lot of money.
I mean, in any sort of capital gains, you're gonna

(22:57):
have need to establish a basis, whether we timber or
something else to correct pay your money or pay your
taxes correctly and save yourself money on your taxes.

Speaker 4 (23:06):
You also, and what this allows us to do too,
it just it allows us to let the listener here
that there are advantages to having a plan not just
for how you're going to cut the timber and what
sections are going to get cut when, and not just
to establish goes for the habitat part of it, but

(23:28):
the economic side of this. There's a lot of people
that own properties and timber businesses. For example, a lot
of times corporate business can own large tracks a ground.
Private individuals can own large tracks a ground. And while
all of those people may not hunter fish, all of
those people get to bring their timber to the same market.

(23:51):
And that's where the consultor can really help with a
tax advantage or a business a management plan so that
it's always working to your advantage to come out ahead.
And so it's it's not dis based off of volume
that we're trying to increase, and it's not dis based
off of a market that we're trying to increase. Anybody

(24:12):
that's been in and around money and any given time
when you can make that tax advantage work for you,
I don't know too many people that are not going
to raise their hand and sign sign themselves up for it.

Speaker 5 (24:23):
I agree, And there's a lot of as you know,
if we talk about taxes like capital gains tax on
timber sales, there's also like a lot of forestry services
that are tax deductible. If you're a farmer on a farm,
you can write them off as a farm expense. And
this that's more of like from the timber management side,
not just having a timber harvest to where you're not

(24:44):
taking the feeling the full brunt of the costs that
you're going to have to spend to do to actively
manage the woods.

Speaker 4 (24:52):
The other thing too, that is interesting with timber consulting
companies to Jim and David is let's just take, for example,
the Kentucky Oak Initiative and look at where we're at
geographically in the state of Kentucky and what we're known
for the need for bourbing and whiskey barrels, the amount

(25:13):
of pallets that are needed the veneer logs versus just
selling straight timber out to maybe the local meal that's
down the road from the farm that's being timbered. Explain
a little bit, David about where your expertise, as far
as your certifications and keeping those things updated are allowing

(25:34):
you to have the advantage to Jim was talking about
forecasting for ice storms or possible risk, which we can
only assume risk because we're not God and Mother Nature
can manage yourself at times for different reasons. But your
ability of consulting allows you to forecast where that market's
gonna go and what's happening when the market may be

(25:55):
a little cold or a little hot. Because if that
cornade or ice storm is not going to be a
risk factor, we are continuing to build volume, and sometimes
those trees can reach a point where they plant in
each another level of economic growth, which could be an
advantage almost like an incentive for people to wait that
extra five, ten or fifteen years.

Speaker 5 (26:17):
Yeah, there's definitely certain species, like a good example right
now red oak is getting more interest in the market
of late, but there for several years it's been really struggling.
You've been struggling to move it. You're not getting a
good price for board foot. So there's there's been plenty
of areas or you know, properties with mature red oak
where we've we've waited to cut because you weren't going

(26:38):
to get the top dollar right there. So in your
right now would be a better time for that species
you're you were referencing white oak earlier in the bourbon
industry that has been booming. I would say, if you're
trying to manage and forecast for the future, there's a
limiting factor in forestry, and that's uh the fact that

(26:59):
trees grow slowly and they are on a different time
scale than us. So to some extent, you know, you
really want to focus on regeneration for the future, and
that can be for future generations. There is to some
extent you're going to be working with what you have
in the woods right You're not going to be able
to make quick changes. So sometimes you might be stuck
with a bunch of sugar maple and you might be

(27:20):
in your best interest to just manage for that timber
right there before your next big timber sale where you
can get rid of it for top dollar.

Speaker 4 (27:28):
A lot of folks will be appreciative of having a
consult or come out to their property so that they
can begin to understand why certain trees are marked, why
certain trees are let go. Many people don't understand DBH
or what the market is. Some folks don't understand timber,
stand improvement, and when individual especially to our listeners that

(27:54):
are trying to manage their properties for the wildlife perspective.
It's always good to have people like David and others
that can give advice to come out and just explain
to you what the canopy is, to understand what that
understory is and how the successional change and growth will

(28:17):
offer not only better overall habitat for their gain, but
to also increase that timber's value. A lot of folks
don't realize to the point to where a selective cut
or some type of timber management may put them cutting
their timber multiple times insteader of this all of a

(28:37):
sudden the side in one day that they want to
cut their timber. Right or wrong there, David.

Speaker 5 (28:43):
I would say both right and wrong cutting it. You
talk about selective cuts, and that's kind of can be
like a no no word in forestry. It is a
no no word in forestry. If you talk about selective
harvest a lot of the time, you can talk about
going in and high grading, which leaves behind a lot
of residual timber that's not high enough quality, it's suppressed,

(29:06):
or it's just not as marketable of a species. And
uh you so I have written down here to talk
about civil culture, right, and civil culture is going to
be you're either managing for an even age stand or
an uneven aged stand. Even age stands are what they
sound like. All the trees are of the same age class.

(29:26):
For the most part, those are gonna be timber harvests
that are they really promote oak regeneration and hick regi regeneration.
Most landowners aren't gonna be happy with that unless you
own a lot of land and can pick an area,
because at that point we're talking about a clear cut
or a shelter would cut, and you're cutting a lot
of timber. So when you're doing a selective cut, you're

(29:48):
talking more about single tree selections or group selection. A
single tree selection, you're always going to be fighting shade
tolerant species taking over your understory. You're not gonna a
very good oak regeneration. It might look aesthetically pleasing to
a landowner because you are retaining some bigger trees and

(30:09):
it looks say you're cutting less, but they're gonna be
the less valuable trees, and over time that's gonna it's
gonna shift your forest from an oak predominated forest to
a shade tolerance species, which is gonna be maple and
beach in this area. So what we're talking about, and sorry,
if I'm going, are we good? We'll get into the

(30:29):
group selection is kind of the best of both worlds there,
especially for a private landowner, where you're just making sure
you're cutting enough timber and opening up big enough canopy
gaps to get adequate regeneration on the ground. And from
a forester standpoint, we're thinking about that as regeneration for
the future, keeping oaks growing. Luckily, from a wildlife standpoint,

(30:50):
that still accomplishes everything that a hunter wants out of
getting the regeneration and browse and cover coming up. That's
gonna really of the hunting on their property.

Speaker 2 (31:01):
And we'll get into that in detail after this quick break.
This break is presented by SMI Marine. Go see him,
Tom Maddington and staff. No boating inside and out. They'll
take great care of you. You'll find if you've made
some friends after you visit there. And remember you never
get soaked by my friends at SMI. David, you know,

(31:21):
I want to say something and it sounds simple, but
it's very complex in one way or another. Correct forestry
management revolves around sunlight. What sunlight can provide in terms
of the growth there and what it can provide for
the critters. Can you kind of talk to that, for example,

(31:42):
the way beach will overstory and kill out the regeneration
of oak and other species, and it maybe touch a
little bit on some crazy stuff invasively like bush honeysuckle
for example. I mean, that's a real problem in northern
Kentucky and it's increasing state wide as we go forward.

Speaker 5 (32:02):
But sunlight, yeah, I so you definitely when you're talking
about managing timber and tree forest composition, sunlight is gonna
be what you're managing. A lot of sunlight. There's trees
have there's shade tolerant species, intermediate tolerant species, and intolerant species,
where your your oaks and hickorys are going to be

(32:24):
more intermediate or intolerant to shade. So once a canopy closes,
your understory. When you talk about a forest, you have structure,
You have an understory, a mid story, and an over story.
Over time, is a canopy closes, the understory is shaded,
and all of your vegetation starts to kind of die back.
It's not as thick it's much nicer to walk through,

(32:44):
but it's gonna be composed almost completely of maple and
beach around here and possibly invasive species. So that's a
big problem from a forestry standpoint, because eventually you're gonna
you're gonna have a disturbance, whether it be a timber
harvest to the tree gets old and dies. You know,
any natural servants or timber harvests and those shade tolerance

(33:06):
species can still release and replace those canopy trees, so
over time you'll get a diverse forest. You know, there's
there's nothing wrong with beech and maple being in the forest,
but over time, if you cut it wrong or you know,
if there's a natural disturbance, you can get a forest
that's entirely composed of maple and beach, and you want

(33:26):
more diversity in there. And from a timber standpoint, you
want that because they're higher quality species. And luckily, from
a wildlife standpoint, you're getting that that new creating those
canopy gaps and getting the sunlight onto the ground is
getting you that vegetation coming in. If like early successional vegetation,

(33:47):
you're gonna get blackberries and raspberries growing, and then over time,
you'll get smaller timber and as as it goes through
the stages of forest succession, you're just gonna have a
lot new vegetation and regeneration there that's gonna provide you
cover and brows, and that's all from allowing sunlight to
get to the ground.

Speaker 4 (34:06):
And it's definitely not a monoculture of vegetation that's coming back.
It is truly a food plot that Mother Nature will
give them that is high nutritional value. But at the
same time, it just doesn't provide food. It's going to
provide a lot of cover, and that space is going
to be inhabited by different species of wildlife, not just

(34:29):
here all your turkeys, your small game, your non game species,
because there's so much more protected in that from predators
both aerial and ground. And at the same time, no
matter if it's for the thermal cover or if it's
for the brows, just that natural change of edge, it
will become a transitional area. A lot of times you'll

(34:50):
be able to pull your neighbors treaders off of their property,
put them on yours, and your creators will grow bigger
and healthier.

Speaker 5 (34:57):
Yeah, definitely, And that's like you said that creating that
edge effect in your canopy gaps is uh. That's from
a wildlife standpoint, that's what you're going through. You don't
want your woods from wildlife standpoint to look like a
park setting everywhere where you can see three hundred yards.
You want some that changes in the vegetation and something
that's gonna provide that cover and habitat the deer feel

(35:19):
comfortable in.

Speaker 2 (35:20):
Absolutely. All right, got to go to break here, folks.
This break is presented by Bassilk Properties, Heart Realty. Check
out their listings at MLP h A r T Realty
dot com. All right, talk for talking tonight with David Cox.
He's with David Coxforestry dot com. He's a professional Forrester
and we're talking about o Fas Forestry and Scott. You

(35:42):
and I talk a lot on the program about secession
and its importance, and I guess let's talk about that
a little bit because I know you've got some questions
for David.

Speaker 4 (35:56):
We've grown up in the last ten the twenty years
where it seems like picture perfect food plots is what
everybody put their time, energy and effort into, and those
have their place, but what also has its place and
in my opinion has more of a place because it's

(36:18):
something that more people can do on a much more
economically friendly scale. Is to understand what natural succession is
and how that can basically be fired up through fire,
which can be a very controversial topic that we won't
get into tonight, But one thing that's not as controversial

(36:38):
is cutting and harvesting timber and understanding that canopy and
looking at what trees you will select or not select.
More on the wildlife management side, when it comes to
the crown and trying to get that sunlight to hit
that surface floor and start that whole pull of new

(37:01):
growth because of the seed bank that is there that
has been caused from some type of scarification or just
disturbance of the soil adding heat and sunshine and moisture.
It comes to effect, and Jimmy talk about this all
the time if a person owns a piece of property
that if some point in time they're not managing the

(37:24):
mass species on or looking at ways to improve mass
and creating habitat in which they have to wear specialized clothing.
What I'm getting at there's a lot of like the
brier proof or your duck cloth, where if you walk
through it, it can get through briers and bramble and

(37:44):
all of that so that you're not bleeding and giving
a blood transfusion to the American Red Cross. But it's
good for our small game, it's good for our large
game and deer. An overgrown rabbit and deer tend to
take all the focus when it comes to wildlife management,
and I think we've gone the wrong direction over the
years of just pushing and promoting food plots to the

(38:07):
point of annuals and perennials, and we really have forgotten
about the importance of succession and timber management.

Speaker 5 (38:15):
David, Yeah, I mean, as we talk about like forest succession,
you're having the multiple stages of succession, and your property
is ideal for all wildlife management, like you said, not
just whitetail. But when you open up those canopy gaps
with the timber harvest, you're gonna get that BlackBerry, raspberry
and bramble that you're that you're talking about coming in
in soft mass species and that's your early successional forest,

(38:38):
right It's offering a lot of cover on the ground
and a lot of load of the ground brows. You
get into the second stages of it and eventually that's
that's a that's in stage where you're gonna want to
do some timber management, maybe some thinning crop tree release.
A lot of it is because the food gets too
high off the ground, you know, for the deer to

(38:58):
get to or for other wildlife to get to. And
then Scott, you're wanting to talk about retaining mass producing trees,
and that's going to be in your mature force, your
more mature force successional stage. And when you have a
timber harvest you don't have you know, you're gonna if
your focus is on wildlife, then obviously you're going to
retain some of your oaks. You're not going to go
in there and cut them all out. And a good

(39:19):
thought to have when you're thinking on wildlife here is
that you want to maintain those mass producing trees. But
an acorn crop might not be good, you know, except
every you know, a couple of years. Some years you're
not going to get a great acorn crop. So you
want to be able to keep that hard mass and
mature trees dropping acorns, hickory nuts. But also in the understory,

(39:42):
make sure that you're maintaining a diversity that's favorable for
wildlife and something that they want to be in that's
going to provide them a lot of food. So we're
talking about maintaining hard mass in the canopy and soft
mass and cover in the in the understory for the
most part.

Speaker 4 (40:00):
And one of the ways that we can advocate for
David and his services, Jim, is when someone calls up
and once this service provided, it's important for them to realize.
And if I'm wrong, David correct me. But when you
have a consulting service such as David offers, it's very

(40:22):
easy for the landowner to talk to them so that
when the individuals come in with their equipment and they're
wanting to harvest timber on the property. And what I'm
getting at here is there may be a particular ridge,
or a particular spot, or a particular oak tree, or
maybe it's some persymmetries that it's really dear to someone's

(40:43):
heart and they don't want to.

Speaker 3 (40:44):
See that go.

Speaker 4 (40:46):
People like David will advocate for those landowners and in
the ground at times to where loggers can at times,
and it's not all loggers, and I understand David's professional
role and respect, but you want to make sure that
you're you're working with people that aren't just going to
absolutely crush and destroy your property to where whenever that

(41:06):
harvest takes place, that you're not left with this sickening
feeling and this esthetic piece of property that you're not
happy and proud of. And as folks work through their
timber management plans and how they harvest timber over the years,
it's just been something I've seen where people really have
certain parts of the farm or certain parts of the

(41:27):
property that really mean a lot to them and they
want to not only keep it healthy, they almost want
to kind of maintain that heritage and tradition of what's
happened on that ridge or this bottom.

Speaker 5 (41:39):
Yeah, there's definitely, I mean on a lot of my
client's farms, there's areas that we don't even touch because
it's dear to them. Even if they even if it
might not even be the best wildlife management, you know,
it's their farm, and if they don't want equipment over there,
I don't want to do any cutting there, then then
that's the way that it's going to play out for them.
And that's all written into a management plan form, especially,

(42:01):
and when you're talking about a logger coming in and like,
there's always gonna be some collateral damage when you're doing
timber harvesting, and you're you're going to know that a
timber harvests happen. But as long as there's you can
make sure if you get a Kentucky master logger there
and have a forester overseeing it, a consultant like myself,
you can get a Division of Forestry ranger in there,

(42:22):
and those loggers are going to have to implement best
management practices and almost all those are going to be
focused on water quality in Kentucky. But with that, we're
going to talk about cleaning up ruts after a harvest.
Ruts are something people hey, keeping treetops out of streams
from damming up, you know, damming the streams up, smoothing
out your landing areas and your loading areas, maintaining your roads,

(42:46):
putting in any erosion control measures, putting down seed. There's
the right way and the wrong way to do things.
And if a timber buyer is reputable and following these
b and ps and is a master logger, then you're
you can be protected from some of the horror stories
you hear about people who have sold timber and that
you know, they woke up one morning and the equipment

(43:07):
was gone and they were standing in an eight foot
rut if.

Speaker 4 (43:13):
And that's where I'm advocating for you, David, is that
people that aren't around this business or industry all the time,
there are stereotypes and horror stories out there that have happened.
And when someone like yourself who has a career and
a profession of working with different individuals, you know the
good from the bad and can help advise people and

(43:35):
if you see something going astray or not in the
right direction. And we won't get into you know, water management,
quality plans or anything with that, but people don't want
to be left with where once the people are off
of the property and done removing the timber, that they
don't have an erosion nightmare and that they're not going
to have, you know, some poor results from channeling the

(43:56):
water whatever, that that's going to be and that that
property is going to be able to recover and come
back around in X amount of years and be able
to restain and have a good, healthy harvest again so
that can regenerate it.

Speaker 5 (44:10):
So yeah, and I mean a lot of those skid
trails have maintained properly they're opening up. The landowner can
have a say of where, you know, to an extent. Obviously,
sometimes topography can limit where you're going to put a
skid trail, but a landowner can have a say and
where skid trails are going to be established, and if
you maintain those afterwards, it opens up a network and

(44:32):
your property that you might have not had before. Depending
on where some of those staging areas are, it might
open up an area where you could put a food
plot in. I know you were just talking about maybe
getting away from food plots, but I know some people
are still. You know, there can be an opportunity there
at a staging are at a yarding area to do that.
And the skid trails, if maintained properly and left properly,

(44:56):
can really be a benefit to the property.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
You know, the trail systems and the things they could
provide go beyond the scope of what a lot of
people would think. You were telling me earlier to see
them when we were preparing for the program about how
you've actually created access for people where in the past
they had to have access and egress through another property.

(45:21):
But by establishing a new road system in there they
can utilize the property better.

Speaker 5 (45:27):
Yeah, I have a timber harvest going on right now,
and this my client just bought a right of way
off a neighbor and the whole. But when he first
started talking to me about all this, he was all
worried about getting it before I put the timber out forbid,
of getting access for the loggers in.

Speaker 3 (45:43):
You know.

Speaker 5 (45:44):
I told him, like, you're going to want to wait
and improve your access afterwards, because these loggers are going
to do a pretty good job of giving you a
nice access into this property, you know. And he had
his doubts about it. Well, they got better access right
now and they've ever had in their life to that property.
There's a you know, a rock going down with a
nice culvert in put in the ditch from something that

(46:04):
it did not to somebody that's not in the industry,
and around it a lot, it didn't look like you're
gonna get any access in there. And now that you
could drive a you know, you could drive a Prius
down to the log yard, so it can really, it
can really provide you good access and open up a
network of trails on your property that you're gonna enjoy
and benefit from.

Speaker 3 (46:25):
Cool.

Speaker 2 (46:25):
I'm gonna go to quick break here. This break is
presented by SMI Marine or eleven four hundred West Polk Road,
just north of Gene Snyder. Go see them and take
great care of you. Remember you never get soaked by
my friends at SMI got I know you got some
questions for David about the market where it's going, because

(46:47):
it's it's fluctuating and it's changed a lot here in
the last eight to ten years. So go ahead, Scott.

Speaker 4 (46:55):
Well, you know, David, one of the things with it
referring to the market before we talk about individual types
of timber or certain species that are hot, is one
thing that I have a question for and I would
like for you to speak to professionally, being that you

(47:17):
are in the private sector. Is sometimes when folks are
representing the government side, the state or the federal side
of forestry, when they are on a contract, let's say,
for thirty seven and a half hours a week, and
if you look at what biased or unbiased is, all

(47:40):
of those things need the utmost respect. I mean, we
need to appreciate the entire scope of the industry. But
back to that market, when someone like yourself is a
private consultor explain the advantage of that with the market
can prepared to say, using just a state employee out

(48:05):
of one of the divisions, whether it's in Kentucky, Indian
or whatever state folks are in.

Speaker 5 (48:12):
Well, one working with a forester in a private sector,
they're allowed to set up your timber sales. And I
don't work with the state that closely a lot of
the time, but a private forester is going to know
the timber markets in the industry a lot better for
the most part. You this is something that you know,
our livelihood depends on it. We're following it close and

(48:34):
we we're going to track which species is doing what
and and really at the end of the day be
able to know what a fair price is, a fair
market value is for your timber and for what's being
offered out there. So, uh, it's when it comes to
brokering a sale, knowing the markets is. Yeah, it's the

(48:55):
biggest thing, you know, after the timbers marked, is to
make sure you're not you know, make sure you're taking
advantage of it and you know, not getting something, make
sure you're not getting taken advantage up.

Speaker 4 (49:07):
Yeah, and just to put you on the spot and
not knowing how you get answer it. If people want
to Let's just take Kentucky for example, if people want
to call the Kentucky Division of Forestry, folks can get
that set up, the forester can come out, they can
go through a plan. All of that is there. But
they also have the ability to call someone like yourself

(49:28):
up set down at their table with whoever's in this
whole situation. Maybe that's brothers and sisters, maybe that's fathers
and sons, or maybe it's a daughter that's accepted the
inheritance of a piece of property. They can take what
you give as well and then make their decision. And
not to speak for you, but I think it will

(49:49):
be a very cut and dry decision who people are
going to end up doing their business with and taking
their advice from them.

Speaker 5 (49:58):
Yeah, I mean, especially if you're talking like, you know, monetary,
like if you're just talking about timber value, and that's
I mean, we're on here, we're talking about wildlife. Some
people just want to cut their timber because they want
the money out of it. They've been growing it and
it comes time to harvest it. They've been they've maybe
been putting it off and they're nervous about it, but

(50:20):
you you want to work with some professional and to
really squeeze every sense you can out of it, get
top dollar off of it. And working with somebody like me,
I know when you know the industry in and out,
certain jobs are better to sell to different companies and
that's one of the reasons forbidding it. And that's why
this the spacing on these bids can be crazy between

(50:40):
the high bid and the low bid, and that's just
because you're diversifying that timber sale into You're letting the
people with the best markets for what's being offered bid
on it at what they can pay. So just like
as stocks, like as your stocks, you you want to
have a diverse portfolio. So you don't want to sell
a bunch of a near timber to the local salt
down the street, because they're just going to sell it

(51:01):
to a veneer mill, right And when you put it
out to bid, you're opening that up to the we
know the markets and set the price point, but we're
still able to market it out to the best buyers
for that job specifically. And it's you can really do
yourself a disadvantage by not not having multiple bids being

(51:25):
offered onto a job.

Speaker 4 (51:27):
Yeah, And what I'm getting at there is no different
than someone who has to have a medical medical surgery,
or if they're getting consulted on maybe what to do
with the health of their own child or apparentness. It
never hurts to get a second opinion. And that's where
I see when people do take the time, the energy,
and an effort to meet with someone in the private sector,

(51:51):
they realize that there's more than just one option, and
a lot of times those options aren't just for their
advantage on the economic level. It's on the whole fact
of the customer service and which someone like yourself can
bring to them.

Speaker 5 (52:08):
Yeah, I mean I you know, you're the fiduciary for
your clients, and as we talked about earlier, you always
have to keep like as a private forceter A good
private forcer is going to keep your client's best interests,
you know, in their minds at all times. And that

(52:29):
goes back to when you're talking about the first steps
in the process, like this meeting somebody, and it goes
both ways, Like I'm feeling them out as much as
they're feeling me out. Right, there's plenty of people that
I can go and meet with that are interested in
the timber harvest, and then when we get to talking,
I might be like, I don't really know if this
is for you right now, you know, or maybe maybe
I'll take them to another job to site and show them,

(52:51):
you know, what they can expect after it. You're gonna
get a lot. You're gonna get an intimate relationship with
a private force. Usually that is gonna last, you know,
a lifetime, at least a lifetime you know of as
long as that private foresters in the industry. I think
that's where you're trying to touch on there. You know,
I don't I'm not. I'm not gonna say anything bad

(53:12):
about state foresters. You know, I know plenty of them
and like them. But uh, it's uh, you're definitely gonna
get You're gonna have a quality relationship with a private forester.

Speaker 3 (53:23):
No doubt.

Speaker 4 (53:23):
I mean there, it's definitely.

Speaker 5 (53:25):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (53:25):
It's just something for someone to take advantage of, is
to get more than one person's opinion, as we.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
Like to say, best bang for the buck. All right, folks,
got to go to break here. This break is presented
by Paul Thomas at Montill Properties, Heart Realty he's got
all kind of timber sales properties out there. He's got
farms they have timber on it, and he's got vacation
homes and be glad to list your outdoor properties of

(53:52):
any tie. Check out the current listings at M P
H A R T Realty dot com. Scott, you and
I talked about this a lot. You know, there's difference
between logs and logs. What I'm getting at here is
veneer versus regular cut and what have you. You want

(54:14):
to talk to David about that.

Speaker 4 (54:18):
The best part would be, I guess to explain to
the listener's David of when you walk to their property
and you evaluate it, what are you looking for? And
what would you explain to the landowner as far as
not just the species, but how the actual log would
be utilized on the market, whether it's for a purpose

(54:41):
or a grade.

Speaker 5 (54:45):
I mean that's so you know, every woods is so different.
But if you're talking about just products like veneer is
going to be your high end product, right, that's your
cleanest log, typically large diameter, and that you're looking at
a tree, the first twenty feet of that tree is
going to be the highest quality material. Usually the cleanest
wood ideally you know, few knots, few limbs. You start

(55:10):
getting above that, you start getting into lower lower grade materials,
palat logs, tie logs, creating creating logs, and there's just
that there's a big difference in the price on that
for that butt log on the tree or a Veneer
log and the material that's coming out of the top
of it. So that's that That's one of the big

(55:32):
things about being a forester is getting you know, scaling
that footage and uh and trying to trying to hit
that footage on the head for when you're putting it
out to bid, so your your buyers are happy too,
and what the volume that you say is out there
is out there, and especially at the high quality material
lower down in the logs. They you know, they aren't

(55:54):
happy if you overshoot it. I've done it before. I'm
not gonna lie. And you know it hasn't ha been
very often, but it's it's a Each part of the
tree has a different purpose and different buyers use different
amounts of the tree. Sometimes a Veneer company it's not
ideal because they'll just cut the highest qual if they
won the bid, they might cut the highest quality material

(56:15):
off the log and leave the rest, which you know,
they pay the highest for the bid, So like tops
are always gonna be left there for the most part,
but some people do have some timber buyers have firewood
markets and take utilize as much of that tree as possible.

Speaker 3 (56:31):
You know.

Speaker 5 (56:32):
That's uh, that's a more ideal situation, especially like for
the product that's left behind in the woods, but those
tops a lot of it.

Speaker 3 (56:42):
Yeah, a lot of the.

Speaker 4 (56:43):
Games, the fond demand the certain areas, you know, and
and and I think a lot of times veneers is
associated with cutting timber. But just explain to people what
what is a vaneer log, what is the purpose of it,
how it's cut, you know, what do they utilize it
for in products that the everyday person and would be
able to recognize, Like, oh, I had no idea that's

(57:03):
how they use veneer.

Speaker 5 (57:04):
Yeah, I mean you can veneer a lot of different species,
but we're talking about a high quality veneer. We're typically
talking about I mean, walnut and white oak or what
on stumpage price is what's going to make you the
most maple veneers very pretty, But you can have you
can cut veneer different ways, rotary or and it's it's
millimeters shavings of wood that you can cut in ways

(57:25):
to create pretty grain. But you can slap that high
quality walnuts veneer onto a lower grade material and you
can make that log, that one white oak log that
could be turned into a few pieces of you know,
furniture all of a sudden, you can. You can get
a lot of volume out of it for the end
product just by masking a lower quality product with that

(57:47):
thin veneer on top of it.

Speaker 2 (57:49):
And David, so folks can understand what we're talking about here.
Veneer logs versus a comparable size log tremendous price difference here.

Speaker 5 (57:59):
Yeah, I mean when you're going over volumes for on
an inventory or timber sale volume, you're looking at I'm
going through cent per board feed for most products, right,
how many cent per board feed for this species? There's
this much marked you're going through most products. You get
into veneer logs, white oak you'll get up above a dollar,

(58:19):
and whalnut you'll get up above a dollar even on
on saw logs. But you get into veneer products and
you're talking I mean sometimes six to ten dollars a foot,
you can get crazy prices. You're not always gonna get
that price, so don't let this uh, you know, sometimes
you're just getting three dollars a board foot on the Veneer.
It depends on the quality, the size and the buyer.

(58:41):
H and it's it's important to know that you're selling that.
I've had some small properties with big vneer logs on
himsell for a lot of money. You know, we're talking
three acres for fifty grand. Like if you have if
you're working with Veneer, you have the aim of the
crop and knowing that is a huge deal. That's like

(59:03):
one of the reasons working with of course.

Speaker 4 (59:04):
Everybody is Yeah, everybody's gap property. They they want to
hope that they've got a bunch of a near on it.
But a lot of folks just don't understand what it
takes to to get that premium price. So what is
what is hot? Like, what's uh for the average piece
of ground that you're seeing in Kentucky that's not been
managed or maybe someone's just acquired it. What's sought right

(59:26):
now in the market, what's going on in the Southern
Indiana Kentucky area, and and what are what are the
buyers actually looking for?

Speaker 5 (59:34):
Well, the timber market stumpage prices have been pretty good.
Most sales have gotten like generated some some good bids
and the high bids have been very adequate. But the
timber market has been people have been a little scared lately. Uh.
It was it was at an all time high during COVID.
White Oak was selling through the roof. There's been The
stave market is tightened up quite a bit and a
lot of loggers have been put on quotas uh or

(59:57):
they're just there. Their logs aren't being taken into these
stave mills. Independence stave like is a huge one in Salem, right.
They're the biggest stay of company in the United States,
and a lot of people have been put on quotas.
I will say from a landowner standpoint, if you have
stave logs and selling them those there's still worth a
lot of money if you can get that buyer. If

(01:00:20):
if you have the right buyer that is not put
on a quota and they're still buying his logs, a
stave log is still bringing a good price, So there's
still expensive. They've come down some since COVID. That was expected.
There's been a bit of a bubble market in white
Oak and and staves because of bourbon. Like I touched
on earlier, red oak is coming back right now in

(01:00:40):
a pretty desirable species to be cutting sugar maple really,
which is when you're talking from civil culture, sugar maple
is a lot of the times in Kentucky. That's what
you're trying to manage against because you get so much
of it as a shade tolerant specie species. It's it's
moving pretty good. I think most timber is moving good.

(01:01:01):
It's it's more of looking at grades, high grade and
quarters on lumber and logs are they're moving well. You
get into the lower grade stuff, you get docked on
the prices creating crading logs. They're they're doing okay, not great,
but it's a The timber market is it's been volatile,

(01:01:23):
but it is we're still getting good stumpage prices, which
is that's the price of the landowner. The landowner, you know,
that's the money they're making off the timber sales called
stumpage price. And at the end of the day, when
you work with a forester and you put your timber
out to bid, and sometimes things can happen overnight and timber,
but you don't have to sell it. If it doesn't

(01:01:43):
meet that price point, you're not you know, you don't
have to sell it. You can say no, that's not
ideal for anybody.

Speaker 3 (01:01:48):
You know.

Speaker 5 (01:01:48):
I don't like doing that because typically there's a high bidder.
I have to call and tell them, Yeah, we're gonna
need to wait on this.

Speaker 3 (01:01:54):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (01:01:55):
You know, I'm not We're not comfortable selling at that price.
But that's the way it goes. And that's one of
the benefits of hiring you know, somebody like me that
might have to make that hard phone call to the
buyer and you know you have to sit there and wait.

Speaker 4 (01:02:08):
Yeah, but the market I'll show you a really hard
curveball too. With with this being our topic right now,
say an individual is always had a lifelong dream of
buying a piece of property to call their own. If
you had an individual that was really at that point
where they're they've really narrowed it down, they're not they

(01:02:29):
don't need a real estate agent, but they need somebody
to go look at a piece of property that is
on the market that they're thinking about buying. Is that
something that someone could pay you to do?

Speaker 5 (01:02:40):
You know, Oh yeah, people call me all the.

Speaker 4 (01:02:41):
Time Okay, that's where I'm going with it.

Speaker 5 (01:02:44):
Yeah, yeah, to work people.

Speaker 4 (01:02:46):
Why that's so important when it comes to how a
lot of folks are going to have to have a
down payment or or find a way to pay for
a piece of property out of being a cash buyer.

Speaker 5 (01:02:56):
Well, I mean, if you're considering cutting timber, most people
or calling me about that, or clearly they're wanting to
know what a timber, what the timber value is out there,
and what type of cut they can do and what
you know, what a ballpark number is that they can
get out of this, and so they're gonna have money
up front, you know, always taking a consideration. Like I
said earlier, you need to own that timber for a

(01:03:16):
year for it to be qualified for long term capital gains.
So I make sure anytime somebody send me out to
go look at, you know, a timber that they're thinking
about buying, or land they're thinking about buying, you know,
I always remind them of that that it's not going
to be an immediate bang for your buck. And really
even then, I think he had asked about this earlier
off air, But the process can be long for you're

(01:03:39):
trying to give a pretty long contract for a timber sale.
You know a year to I like to give eighteen
months minimum. I'll do a year. We've done shorter. But
this isn't something that happens overnight. The shorter of the
contract you give, the more bidders you're going to weed
out this is it's not an overnight process. It's something
you need to have some patience with. And like I said,

(01:04:00):
if you're sending me out to go look at a
property that you're thinking of buying, you can, like you
can go ahead and cut it, but you're gonna pay
more in taxes on the back end of it if
you you know, it's better to wait that year.

Speaker 2 (01:04:14):
All right, guys, you got to go to break here.
This break is presented by SMI Marine. Go see them
to take care of all of your body needs. Remember
you never get soaked at SMI. David, let's talk a
little bit about TSI here, because I know you're very
passionate about that. Explain what it is and tell folks

(01:04:34):
why that's important to them.

Speaker 5 (01:04:36):
In you, TSI stands for timbercent Improvement and uh, it's
a it's an important thing to do, especially if you're
When we were talked earlier about single selection or group
selection civil culture.

Speaker 3 (01:04:49):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (01:04:51):
A lot of the times when you're going to cutting
these trees, there's there's cold trees and stunted trees and
shade tolerant species left behind that aren't high quality, even
if sometimes maybe you've even marked them for sale, but
the purchaser wasn't interested in buying them, and they have
the right to leave them. They don't have to cut
everything that you've marked. So TSI is important because you

(01:05:11):
go back in there and you're removing undesirable species typically
and making sure that you're getting enough sunlight onto the
canopy gap that you've created to the forest floor and
not to the canopy of the sixteen foot beach tree
that was left behind. Right, So it's a very important
thing to do. After eight you know, people nobody's against it.

(01:05:33):
It just can cost money. You know, it is tax deductible,
you can use to the farm expense. But it's as
far as when land owners want to be real selective
and want to leave a pretty forest behind but still
sell timber, that's all well and dandy. It can be
hard to do. You might be limited by the size
of your farm. But if you do timbercent improvement after it,
it's going to be a lot easier for future generations.

(01:05:55):
So you get you know, multiple age classes growing of
the right species in your four structure so that all
can be laid out in a timber management plan. Uh.
Timber management plan is a great thing. We talked about
it earlier. Especially if you have a full inventory done
in your forest. That's gonna give you data like trees

(01:06:16):
per acre, volume per acre, your species composition, and that's
really going to be the most scientific backed management. Like
that data is going to help you make the best
decisions for your farm based on what your goals are.
That that's part of the management plan. If you want
to be you don't have to do a full inventory
forever management plan. It's uh yeah, I know we're limiting

(01:06:42):
on time. I'm trying to cover everything I can.

Speaker 2 (01:06:46):
Well talk about soft mass for minute, stuff like dogwood
per Simon that a lot of us are passionate about wildlife. Yeah, Paul,
Paul's great example, you're gonna get sorry, go ahead. How
does that integrate into what you would tell somebody if
they're interested a in managing their timber, but be they

(01:07:06):
really cure passion a little about wildlife and what's the
old kind of species.

Speaker 5 (01:07:10):
Well, typically if there's a percymetry on the farm that
somebody's passionate about, it might be the first thing that
they tell me they don't want to cut. And well,
usually you'll use a leave a buffer zone around, you know,
even something like that, just to make sure you don't
have a top snap off and hit it on accident
or something. But doing it. When we were talking about
forest succession earlier, that's when you create a disturbance in

(01:07:33):
a forest. If you have a mature forest, you're gonna
have your pap Paul's and your percimons, and if they're
producing fruit, it's all well and dandy. If you don't
have soft mass in your forest a great way to
do to get it in there is by cutting. You're
not gonna automatically get a producing percimon over time, but
those early successional species in a forest, when they start

(01:07:55):
coming in, there're gonna be a lot of elderberry, BlackBerry, raspberry.
They're gonna be soft mass producing species. And it's timber management.
Timber cuts are a good way to mimic a natural
disturbance and get money out of it and get that
vegetation growing in that landowners are looking for for wildlife habitat.

Speaker 3 (01:08:13):
Yes, sir, edging, can you touch on that very briefly edge.

Speaker 5 (01:08:17):
Effect, So an edge effect there's when you have you
go from a crop field or pasture right to a
woods that can be a hard edge. All of that
is going to be areas that's really concentrated with wildlife
and a lot of the times we didn't talk much
about invasive species today earlier, and that's really important. Invasive
on edges is a great place. And when you create

(01:08:38):
canopy gaps in the woods, that also creates edges inside
your woods or these invasives, it gives them a place
to take root. So that's something you always have to
be very careful of, just like invasive native species to
thrive in the edges, and he gives you diversity there.
Wildlife loves to hang out in a diverse edge. Yeah,

(01:08:59):
I wish you would have touched more on invasives. Definitely
cutting timber if you already have in vasis on your property,
cutting the timber like, it's not gonna make them go away.
They're gonna get that full sunlight we're talking about too,
So there's there's programs to help call share to get
rid of that, talking with a forester and getting a
plan that can all be listed in your in your
forest management plan.

Speaker 3 (01:09:20):
Tech folks, a little bit about the association you belong to.

Speaker 5 (01:09:24):
So, I'm a member of a c F, the Association
of Consulting Foresters of America. This is the Kentucky chapter.
It's it takes a long time to get into a CF.
You can be a candidate member. I'm a full member
of a CF and Kentucky.

Speaker 3 (01:09:36):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (01:09:36):
And those are these are foresters around the state like
me that they're they work solely with private landowners and
they're the best of the best. You can You can
find their website k CF dot org. I think we
switched our domain name, but if you google the Kentucky
Association of Consulting Foresters, you're gonna be put in touch
with me. People like me.

Speaker 3 (01:09:57):
Uh. To that point, how do folks get in touch
with you?

Speaker 5 (01:10:01):
Well, you can call me. I'm five oh two eight
oh two, six oh two one. My name is David
Cox and uh, my website's Coxforestry dot com and people
can reach my emails listed on there. You can always
give me a phone call shoot me a text and
you know I'll be happy to hear from you. I
know I know other forces around the state what as well.

Speaker 3 (01:10:21):
Very very good sir Well. I deeply appreciate you coming
along with us.

Speaker 2 (01:10:24):
This is something that I wanted to touch on a long,
long term basis. Thanks to Scott Uh he helped touch
us up together. He's very knowledgeable about forestry management as well.
So enjoyed having you and folks. Will be here next week,
same place, same time. Please be careful out there. God
bless everybody.