October 27, 2024 • 36 mins
Jim and Scott discuss an emergency regulation banning baiting for deer and deer carcass transportation in Meade, Breckenridge and Hardin Counties.
The show also featured the true facts about CMD presented by Dr. James Kroll, one of the nation's highly respected deer biologists.
The show also featured the true facts about CMD presented by Dr. James Kroll, one of the nation's highly respected deer biologists.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good evening, everyone jumps straighter here and tonight we're going
to bring you news about a Fishing Widlife commission on Tuesday.
It was an emergency meeting and it was as a
result of a CWD positive test on a captive deer
in a fenced deer farm and Berekeridge County, and that
(00:22):
farm is regulated by the Kentucky Department of ad But
as a result of that test, the Kentucky Department of
Fishing Widlife Fresources Commission voted to institute a bating ban
and carcass transformation excuse me, transportation restrictions and breckage Mead
(00:43):
and Hardened counties. Again, that was effective immediately and then
as a bating ban and carcass transportation restriction in those counties.
And all this is coming a scamp a couple of
weeks before the opening of your gun season. Frankly, in
more than forty years of covering Fishwife Commission meetings, this
(01:04):
is one of the worst I ever watched. There was misinformation,
there was lack of information, and I want to say
here that I want to give kudos to two of
the commissioners that asked the right questions that were on
point and did not vote for the baiting band and
the restrictions.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
And that was.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Fourth District Commissioner Greg Cecil and Third District Commissioner Matt Rhodes.
Rhades and Secil both asked all kinds of questions about
what do we know about this deer, had this deer
had contact with other deer? They asked about what effect
putting the baiting band would have on the harvest of deer,
(01:51):
and both those gentlemen did not vote for the measure.
Matt Rhodes abstained and Greg Cecil voted against. And the
thing I want to point out here before we get
rolling is that this is the first time I can
ever remember other commission members voting against a plan or
(02:15):
restriction that would take place in the districts where the
Commissioner's voted against or of state. I've never seen this
before in my memory, and it points out a lot
of flaws in that meeting. So Scott and I will
break this down for you and tell you why this
is going to have a huge negative impact and why
(02:37):
basically it's a bunch of folks that's chasing their tails.
It was a knee jerk reaction. Also, I want to
make sure the audience understands. There is a meeting apparently
scheduled for November seventh. That's November seventh in Brekeridge County,
and we're going to feature doctor James Kroll in the
(02:59):
program to night where he is going to give you
the facts about CWDA and dispel some of these concerns
that apparently these commissioners weren't aware are out there. So
I'm gonna go to break. It's presented by SMI Marine.
Go see him to get your boat ready for winter.
Remember you never get sold by my friends at SMI. Hey, folks, again,
(03:21):
we're talking about a baiting band and transportation restrictions and
berecage meet and Harden counties as a result of fishing
Wilife Commission meeting. And Scott, I know you've got a
lot of things that you saw that were flawed with this,
but I want to make three things abundantly clear. And
we're gonna play doctor Kroll's thoughts about all the things
(03:46):
that are germane to this decision that doesn't make sense
quite frankly. Number One, CWD has not caused a population
collapse in any state where it's been The detected zip
o things like blue tongue do a lot more to
hurt deer than in the population that CWD has done,
(04:09):
and it's been around since the sixties. Number two, no
human being has ever been infected by, made sick by,
or died as a result of consuming deer with CWD.
And lastly, but not least, banning the baiting of deer
(04:31):
has not proven effective in any way, shape or fashion.
As a matter of fact, there's no peer reviewed studies.
According to doctor Kroll, who's the nation's pre eminent expert,
he's the guy that all these states have consulted with
for many, many years on CWD, baiting does not cause CWD,
(04:54):
and so it's very curious why they would do this.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Scott a prime example of where sportsmen in the Commonwealth
right now, we're going to have to stand their ground
to let their voice be heard and realize that we
are the final management tool and the most important tool
that we have to work with. We've got a situation
(05:19):
where CWD has been present in multiple states, We've learned
from other states mistakes, and yet we have a special
called meeting at the state and we were all at
the mercy for information to be provided to make decisions
on behalf of another agency, and that agency didn't even
(05:44):
have a representative at the meeting, So it just threw
up a red flag right away, Jim.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
And you're speaking on multitude levels and you're speaking there
about one department of agg that wasn't there to go ahead.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Yeah, and on a multiple to the levels, there was
commissioners there representing districts that needed information, and we had
a meeting and we made decisions without having information present. Now,
for the record, I'm all about being informed about CWD
and I am definitely about the management of our dear
(06:22):
and I do put human life in priority when it
comes to looking at concerns with consumption of innocent But
our goal should be to listen to the sportsmen to
grow the sport and to give folks opportunities in order
(06:42):
to go to the field and hunt. And I'm afraid
what's gonna happen with this if we're not careful and
sportsmen's voice aren't listening to. We're going to have an
agenda and a dictatorship that doesn't need to fall strictly
on a panel of men and women when there's a
majority of sportsman Jim, that have a whole lot to say.
(07:06):
And when they pick up the phone and they send
an email and they're not getting responses back, it's not
a very good way to respond back and to have open,
clear and transparent communication.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Is it. No, it's not.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
And that's one reason that we're bringing you this program
tonight because they're supposed to hold a meeting on November
seventh in Brekridge County. And I want to make sure
the public and some of those commissioners who voted for
this get educated about the facts about CWD and not
(07:39):
all this hype. Because when you break all this down,
Gabe Jenkins, who's now Deputy Commissioner, used to be in
the Game Management Division, has the personal agenda against baiting
and the feeding of wildlife. He has openly stated that
in the past, and I see this coming to the
(08:01):
fore here. Why by instituting these bands and making these zones,
the department can get federal grant money, huge moneies, which
they already have in some other areas. And I'm sorry,
but I'm gonna follow the trail, follow the money guy,
And I'm afraid that's what drove this move. And example Scott,
(08:25):
they voted to ban baiting, but in the CWD response,
they're supposed to put up check stations. Oh no, they
didn't want to do that. They bypassed that part, didn't they.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Well, I think if you look at CWD, Jim, and
if you just look at testing in general, a lot
of times when you test for a certain thing that
you're looking for, a lot of times you're gonna find it.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
So statistics don't lie. Statisticians do.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
If we perform tests and we get more tests taken,
there's a good chance that we're going to have more data.
I don't understand in this situation why we wouldn't want
to have as much data as we could possibly have
to work with. There is a tremendous amount of concern.
You've spent your time this week talking with individuals. I've
(09:20):
spent my time talking with individuals, but this is not
in the state of Kentucky. I've spoke with landowners and
states that have been dealing with CWD and outfitters in
hunters who hunt in CWD states, and for several years,
folks have been informed like it was going to be
the end of the deer herd. Several measures were taken
(09:43):
in states like Wisconsin and others that have proven not
to help. We have seen in states that do not
allow mineral or baiting at all that they still have
an increase some of the highest counts of CWD among
their deer herd. Well over the years, anybody that has
(10:04):
spent time afield, whether you're talking about what trees have
been given out to society, what plants have been recommended
to be planted, many times jim government has failed only
to find out years later that the advice that they
were giving and telling people to follow were absolutely not true.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Well that's the reason.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
No one's going to take this CWD problem. No one's
going to take and not give it the consideration it needs.
It needs it. But the banding, abate, supplemental feeding, mineral,
it's a perfect example of throwing the baby out with
the bath water. We need to look at what our
(10:50):
deer populations are. We need to realize that people have
an agenda, and that is that we're going to have
to harvest deer. But just to all of us of
us make a decision to not have any baiting in
those three counties without all parties there that are representing
the responsibility of making these decisions. I just don't support
(11:12):
what was done, and I have not talked to many
sportsmen or women that support what was decided on, and
many did try to reach out, and they did try
to have communication with folks that never answered the phone
or returned an email.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Well, and Commissioner Matt Rhades, who has two of those
counties in his district, asked a very cogent question that
goes to the heart of the issue. And what he
said is, I can't give you a direct crew, but
I certainly stand behind what I heard him say that
stop stopping baiting would seem counterintuitive if we needed to
(11:51):
kill lots of deer to take samples, And that goes
to the heart of this deal, because not only do
we need to do that, it's never been shown that
baiting causes or spreads CWD anymore than the things that
I've railed about for years, like licking branches where the
deer exchanged, the liva scrapes, where they interact, how to
(12:17):
groom each other. All those things come into it. And
Commissioner Cecil from the fourth who again voted no on this,
simply said, look, we don't have enough info. We need
to take care that innocent people aren't perceived as lawbreakers.
(12:37):
And one of the most telling things about what happened
in that meeting was the fact that they said, well,
if you already have out bait, if you already have
out mental licks, you don't have to take them up,
just don't put am more out. What in the hell
does that mean? Does that mean that old bait will
spread CWD more than new bait. When I heard that,
(13:01):
I couldn't believe my ears. It just didn't make any sense.
Like a lot of things in the meeting, I want
to point out one more thing real quick here. When
they instituted that band down in western Kentucky to mister Floyd,
admitted that harvest dropped twenty six percent after they did
(13:22):
that baiting band. Now you're talking about three of the
largest harvest counties in the state. Now that they're telling
people they can't put out bait, it's unenforceable, it's ill advised,
and it's crazy.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
And to advocate for our conservation officers, Jim, if this
state is going to have more regulations put into place
on how deer can be transported, on how deer processors
have to work, how taxidermists have to run their business,
and the ways in which you legally harvest a deer.
Then we need to see O in every county support
(14:00):
conservation officers. And I do too. But if you're going
to get the word out there and you're going to
spread things, these areas in what county games and fish
you know need a game ward and conservation officer and gone,
you know, months and years without one. I just want
to stand up and advocate for how important it is
(14:21):
to have a good representative on the legal perspective in
every single county because if you follow what has happened
with CWD, if you follow, it's probably going to appear
more likely than it is to go away. Everybody can
agree to that it's not going to go away. But
(14:43):
if you're going to put things into place, if you're
going to have regulations, if you're going to have people
that have to follow rules, then let's make sure we've
got game boards into place. Not to write tickets, Jim,
but to help get the word out and to help
make people know what they can do can't do because
at this last minute, this prior to the modern gun season,
(15:06):
not even having a grace window and just making things
immediately you know, going into place, it puts everybody in
a really tough position. Folks don't know whether or not
they're even hunting legally or illegally on their own land,
just because of how fast everything's developed and at any
given time, at any given time Roberts rules of order
(15:29):
and Parliament's procedure could have been put into place to
make this topic an area of subject to where people
could have gone away from the meeting, gotten more data,
guid and research, talk to more sportsmen and women and
come back after a small break and come to at
least the table with more answers and information than what
(15:52):
we had this week.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Absolutely, and again Commissioner Caecial Roads railed about the fact
that we didn't have the information from the Department agg
who regulates those facilities. And again this was a captive
deer behind a fence.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
So we're gonna.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Talk about this and more. We're gonna have doctor James
Crow talk about the facts of CWD here right after
this break. This break is presented by Massi O Property's
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(16:32):
t realt dot com. Doctor James Crow, doctor Dare. He's
been kind enough to return to the program we had
him on several weeks ago about the facts about cw D.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
If you didn't hear that program.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
It's available on podcast uh at on the iHeart app
or at spreaker s p R e a k e
r dot com.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Doc, welcome back to the program.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Really appreciate you sitting in with us. Proud Well, uh,
we covered a lot of ground last time, but I
guess let's start with as you're aware, Uh, there has
been a confirmed case according to the department's testing of
(17:18):
cwdn uh. So there's a lot of questions people are asking.
Can we start with a brief overview for the folks
for what it is? And then I got a couple
of questions I'd like to run by you. Well.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
Cong wasting disease is part of a group of diseases
known as t S stands for transmissible sponge of forming epilopodies.
Translation is that it can be you can catch it
and it turns your brain to a sponge. That's that's
the way they defined it. And there are several species
(17:53):
of animals including humans who have their own unique types
of that disease, and UH it when it's manifested itself
in white tail deer and the deer n l H.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
It's been called chronic waste and disease.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
It's one of the common diseases that we find in
H and a lot of species of mammals, and it's
as they all are, including the ones in humans. It's
it's a fairly rare disease, but it's being promoted.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Is a is not a rare disease.
Speaker 4 (18:29):
There is a highly infectious disease, and there's absolutely no
no scientific evidence that it is highly infectious disease.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
It's a rare disease.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
I just got through analyzing, uh the data from every
state that has reported and is testing for CWD, and
with with the exception of a handful of of counties
in some states, it remains a rare disease.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Okay, uh doctor. The three questions I've like to ask,
or ones that I posed to you before. The first
one is isn't it true that CWD has been around
from fifty approximately fifty years and it's never decimated or
shown great negative impact on deer populations in any state?
(19:20):
Where it's occurred. Is that true?
Speaker 2 (19:23):
That is absolutely true.
Speaker 4 (19:25):
We've known about it since the late nineteen sixties when
it was recognized in a government research.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Facility in Colorado.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
And since then there has not been a single peerid view,
credibletic study that has shown that chronic wasting disease has
caused any deer population, whether it be white Hol's ar
mule deer, to decline.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Okay, second question, isn't it true that no human that
has had any illness or fatalities from CWD. There's no
crossing the humans and there's not been any single case
where it has been any threat to humans.
Speaker 4 (20:14):
That's absolutely correct statement. Since that time, there's been millions
of pounds, maybe millions of tons of benison eaten by
human beings, and not a single human being has contracted
chronic wasting disease. The CDC, when you go to their
website or when it shows up in a state like
(20:36):
it just did in Kentucky, I lay you money without
seeing the press release. It had the standard boiler plate
that the cd CDC says that humans have not been
shown to be able to contract chronic wasting disease. However,
they recommend that you don't eat a deer that is
(20:57):
obviously ill, which any hunter out there, it's not going
to eat a deer that it is obviously unwell in
the first place. So, yes, you're absolutely right. Not one
single scientific study has shown that. As a matter of fact,
the opposite is true. The excellent study done at the
University of California, San Diego that showed that human beings
(21:21):
have a unique resistance to chronic waste and disease.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
And is that because this peculiar to the served family,
the deer family.
Speaker 4 (21:35):
Yes, it's absolutely it's it's unique to it. And we
have a see a preon they're caused by this disease
is caused by aaberant treons.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
We have these things called prions or proteins that run
run around our nervous systems, and there's debate about what
they do. But initially what they do is good. But
when they become distarted, they they can do damage to
the nervous system. But each species out there has got
its own set of preons.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Okay, Now, there's all kinds of things that have been
tried in cases of CWD in various states. And I
know you've been heavily involved in Wisconsin and consultant and
many of them. Can you share with the audience what
(22:32):
your experiences like that have been and what some of
the pitfalls and or successful strategies have been.
Speaker 4 (22:44):
Well, there haven't been any successful strategies. There's not a
single state out there that using the techniques that they
keep using roadly have had any impact at all on
the distribution of chronic wastes. Now you'll get an argument
back from some folks about that New York was able
(23:06):
to stop it. That was one deer, one deer, and
there wasn't another one, and then most recently one more
showed up. But there hasn't been using these techniques that
I called draconian, does it work? I mean my work
in Wisconsin and my two colleagues that were on the
(23:27):
committee with me, we pointed out that they killed one
hundred and seventy two thousand deer in southern Wisconsin outside
of the season, including spotted fawns, and after they got
through doing that, it had absolutely no effect on the
distribution of abundance of chronic waste and disease. And as
(23:50):
a matter of fact, heronically that their populations in that
area of increase.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Okay, can you speak to the scarcity of transmission again
in a way that folks I know you've run some
figures by me. It's such a low percentage. I think
you mentioned Missouri and some other states in our conversations.
Can you tell folks what has a curred no state?
Speaker 4 (24:21):
Oh yeah, let's take Missouri where this one deer may
have come from or been influenced by that you've got
in Kentucky. There By the way, I've been expecting you
to be calling me in and because I knew center
later that Kentucky would find one.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
If you search for something long enough, you're going to find.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
It, and they found it in a very logical place.
But Missouri, who's been sending out letters talking about depopulating,
the state wide infection rate is point one seven percent.
Point one seven percent. Now, that's not exactly something that
would cause you to set your hair on fire, go
(24:59):
running down the street excrement. That's that confirms what we're saying,
is that it is a rare disease.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
And additionally, it takes dear years to succumb to that disease.
Is that true?
Speaker 4 (25:17):
Yeah, seventeen months to four years is what folks are
saying now after exposure to the disease. Uh now was
what thing I want to point out? Testing positive for
CWD prions is not the same as having CWD disease.
(25:41):
It's just your testing positive that these animals, the vast majority,
high numbers, high percentage is ninety nine percent probably of
animals that test positive for the preons do not have
do not have clinical CWD. They are very healthy animals.
You would not tell them from any other animals. It's
(26:02):
very difficult for anybody out there, professionals or otherwise to
find deer that clinically died of chronic wasting disease. Now,
am I saying that deer don't die from chronic wasting disease?
Absolutely not. They certainly can, and some of them probably do.
But here's the point. Generation time for whitetail deer is
(26:24):
three and a half years. What generation time is is
how long it takes for the herd to turn over.
By the time a deer could become become clinical from CWD,
it's been killed and eaten by something for two years.
And that's one of the reasons why I said that
chronic wasting disease would not affect the reproduction and populations
(26:48):
of white tail deer, and it's turned out. I'm absolutely right.
There's not a single periodview study that has shown that
CWD could affect reproduction and herd growth in white tail deer.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Why, in your opinion, is there so much talk about
dear eradication areas when it's not proven effective. I can't
get my head around that.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
I can't.
Speaker 4 (27:15):
I can't get my head around it's totally illogical. You
see an excellent publication PEERI viewed journal publications and that
let me back up this a minute. I noticed that,
you know, you're a Kentucky management plan. It's not really
all that bad. It's at least they they've learned some
things from the other states. But it's it's amazing to
(27:41):
me that that they don't realize that they say in
there that they follow the science. All the states say
they follow the science. My gosh, I'm a scientists. I've
been a scientist for fifty years. I am adamant. I
religiously followed the science.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
And that's what I'm doing.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
What I'm saying these things is that but CWD is
not a density dependent disease.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
A density dependent disease.
Speaker 4 (28:07):
Would be like COVID, where the infection rate is proportional
to how many people are packed in a small area. Well,
and chronic wasting disease. It is a frequency dependent disease.
Individuals have to be exposed over and over again in
order to come down with it.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Now, then we'll talk about science. Let me quote some
science to you.
Speaker 4 (28:31):
One of this guy named Mike Miller, who's a really
good scientist. He was one of the guys in the
associated with Beth Williams out there in Colorado that when
they first found this. He had an interesting study. He
experimentally placed nine CWD named mule deer in three pens
(28:52):
of three to contain new deer carcasses that died of CWD. Okay,
nineteen percent of the cd nave mule deer became infected.
That means eighty one percent did not catch it, and
they were in there with a animal that had succumbed
to it. In another research project, he experimentally exposed three
(29:14):
groups of three deer each to CWD. Naive mule deer
were placed in pins. One set of the three pins
it had been occupied by a CWD.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Infected animal for two years.
Speaker 4 (29:27):
Another one with a c w carcass and a third
one in three pins with CWD infected animal a living
animal which has been infected by CWD. Okay, A total
of sixteen percent of the CWD nave deer in the
three experimental conditions and nine pence became infected and eighty
(29:47):
four percent did not become infected. Now you tell me
if that means that this is highly contagious.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Yeah, just doesn't add up. And I'm glad you I
did those studies. I wasn't aware of those and that
that really helps to to put some perspectives on that. Okay, folks,
I got to go to break here again. This is
(30:16):
excerpts of an interview I did with doctor Krohle that
were previously recorded, because I want folks to know that
these are the facts about CWD, not some of this
stuff that's been banned about by people who apparently aren't
willing to learn from what other states have encountered. That's
(30:37):
one of the things that's continually frustrating to me. All Right,
this break is presented by SMI Marine. Take your boat
in and get ready for the winter before the rush.
Remember you never get soaked by my friends at SMI Doc.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Unfortunately in a lot of the states that have dealt
with CWD.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
And Kentucky, I think it's gonna phone in line with
what I'm gonna speak to here, and I say unfortunately
because it's disturbing to me they're equating feeding of deer
mental sites and baiting for deer with dangers for the
(31:19):
herd to contract CWD. And my thoughts on that is
to refute that argument that deer, because of their social structure,
are always interacting with one another, licking each other, grooming
each other, defecating and urinating around licking branches where they
(31:43):
trade saliva in addition to all the above, and of
course scrapes when bucks scrape, the deer in the area
tend to come to those and check them out. And
dear need supplement, Do you need additional foods? Can you
speak to that particular issue please in your thoughts?
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Yeah? Sure again.
Speaker 4 (32:08):
Uh, you know, let me back up a little bit.
When CWD shows up in a state, it is a
it's sort of a boon to agencies because so my
my colleagues out there the wildlife management of firs there,
(32:29):
they were trained scientist like I was. They have a
philosophical bias against intentioned deer management. Uh. This has gone
on for as you you know, of all people, there's
tremendous interest among the landowners and hunters and managing deer
and supplemental feeding is certainly a part.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Of of that thing.
Speaker 4 (32:54):
But what happens when CWD shows up is something that
may sound familiar to you considering our experiences in the
past with COVID, and that is there's a thing called
emergency rule. If the if the governor declares the emergency
rule over an issue that is deemed as something really
(33:15):
bad is going to happen.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
It actually suspends the Constitution.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
And there are a lot of things that that academic,
academic wildlife biologists and some agency biologists have hated about
about their management.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Is they don't like they don't.
Speaker 4 (33:34):
Like protecting euroin bucks. They really don't like that because
that affects affects their their hardest. They don't like supplemental feeding.
They certainly don't like dear breeders.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (33:46):
And this is a golden opportunity without much Democratics say
to to put a halt in a band or all
things they disliked over the years, a lot of the
states are are moving away from uh ant restrictions to
protect eur only bucks and certainly with baiting. Now there again,
(34:12):
I'll go back to science. There is there is no
published science that shows that a baiting band has ever
done anything to stop curtail, eliminate or whatever of chronic
(34:33):
waste and disease. It has not happened. That it's not
out there. Now they'll they'll use uh laboratory science, what
I call Frankenstein's science UH to justify banning things like
like baiting and feeding and mineral supplementation.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
UH.
Speaker 4 (34:55):
Probably one of the most respected probably publications ever done,
was done and by Science, the journal Science, where they
did all sorts of horrible things to deer. They injected
a white tail phone with two hundred and fifty milli
laters of contaminated blood and they did that to three
(35:20):
of them and they became insected with CWD. Well, where
in nature is free ranking deer ever going to get
a two hundred and fifty milli lead blood transfusion from
a disease deer?
Speaker 1 (35:35):
All right, folks got to go to break.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Here.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Coming back from break, we're gonna talk more with doctor
Kroll and some of his very illustrative examples of why
these bating bands, et cetera do not work and why
our folks have had this perpetrated upon them by some
(35:57):
of the official Life commissioners who are have never heard this.
They seem to be following the information given to them
by Deputy Commissioner Gabe Jenkins, who has the very type
of bias that doctor Crole is talking about, which is
he doesn't like dating or supplemental feeding of deer. So
(36:20):
we'll be back right after this. The break is presented
by Moscow Property's Heart Realty. Check out their listenings at
m p h A r T realt dot com.
Good evening, everyone jumps straighter here and tonight we're going
to bring you news about a Fishing Widlife commission on Tuesday.
It was an emergency meeting and it was as a
result of a CWD positive test on a captive deer
in a fenced deer farm and Berekeridge County, and that
(00:22):
farm is regulated by the Kentucky Department of ad But
as a result of that test, the Kentucky Department of
Fishing Widlife Fresources Commission voted to institute a bating ban
and carcass transformation excuse me, transportation restrictions and breckage Mead
(00:43):
and Hardened counties. Again, that was effective immediately and then
as a bating ban and carcass transportation restriction in those counties.
And all this is coming a scamp a couple of
weeks before the opening of your gun season. Frankly, in
more than forty years of covering Fishwife Commission meetings, this
(01:04):
is one of the worst I ever watched. There was misinformation,
there was lack of information, and I want to say
here that I want to give kudos to two of
the commissioners that asked the right questions that were on
point and did not vote for the baiting band and
the restrictions.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
And that was.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Fourth District Commissioner Greg Cecil and Third District Commissioner Matt Rhodes.
Rhades and Secil both asked all kinds of questions about
what do we know about this deer, had this deer
had contact with other deer? They asked about what effect
putting the baiting band would have on the harvest of deer,
(01:51):
and both those gentlemen did not vote for the measure.
Matt Rhodes abstained and Greg Cecil voted against. And the
thing I want to point out here before we get
rolling is that this is the first time I can
ever remember other commission members voting against a plan or
(02:15):
restriction that would take place in the districts where the
Commissioner's voted against or of state. I've never seen this
before in my memory, and it points out a lot
of flaws in that meeting. So Scott and I will
break this down for you and tell you why this
is going to have a huge negative impact and why
(02:37):
basically it's a bunch of folks that's chasing their tails.
It was a knee jerk reaction. Also, I want to
make sure the audience understands. There is a meeting apparently
scheduled for November seventh. That's November seventh in Brekeridge County,
and we're going to feature doctor James Kroll in the
(02:59):
program to night where he is going to give you
the facts about CWDA and dispel some of these concerns
that apparently these commissioners weren't aware are out there. So
I'm gonna go to break. It's presented by SMI Marine.
Go see him to get your boat ready for winter.
Remember you never get sold by my friends at SMI. Hey, folks, again,
(03:21):
we're talking about a baiting band and transportation restrictions and
berecage meet and Harden counties as a result of fishing
Wilife Commission meeting. And Scott, I know you've got a
lot of things that you saw that were flawed with this,
but I want to make three things abundantly clear. And
we're gonna play doctor Kroll's thoughts about all the things
(03:46):
that are germane to this decision that doesn't make sense
quite frankly. Number One, CWD has not caused a population
collapse in any state where it's been The detected zip
o things like blue tongue do a lot more to
hurt deer than in the population that CWD has done,
(04:09):
and it's been around since the sixties. Number two, no
human being has ever been infected by, made sick by,
or died as a result of consuming deer with CWD.
And lastly, but not least, banning the baiting of deer
(04:31):
has not proven effective in any way, shape or fashion.
As a matter of fact, there's no peer reviewed studies.
According to doctor Kroll, who's the nation's pre eminent expert,
he's the guy that all these states have consulted with
for many, many years on CWD, baiting does not cause CWD,
(04:54):
and so it's very curious why they would do this.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Scott a prime example of where sportsmen in the Commonwealth
right now, we're going to have to stand their ground
to let their voice be heard and realize that we
are the final management tool and the most important tool
that we have to work with. We've got a situation
(05:19):
where CWD has been present in multiple states, We've learned
from other states mistakes, and yet we have a special
called meeting at the state and we were all at
the mercy for information to be provided to make decisions
on behalf of another agency, and that agency didn't even
(05:44):
have a representative at the meeting, So it just threw
up a red flag right away, Jim.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
And you're speaking on multitude levels and you're speaking there
about one department of agg that wasn't there to go ahead.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Yeah, and on a multiple to the levels, there was
commissioners there representing districts that needed information, and we had
a meeting and we made decisions without having information present. Now,
for the record, I'm all about being informed about CWD
and I am definitely about the management of our dear
(06:22):
and I do put human life in priority when it
comes to looking at concerns with consumption of innocent But
our goal should be to listen to the sportsmen to
grow the sport and to give folks opportunities in order
(06:42):
to go to the field and hunt. And I'm afraid
what's gonna happen with this if we're not careful and
sportsmen's voice aren't listening to. We're going to have an
agenda and a dictatorship that doesn't need to fall strictly
on a panel of men and women when there's a
majority of sportsman Jim, that have a whole lot to say.
(07:06):
And when they pick up the phone and they send
an email and they're not getting responses back, it's not
a very good way to respond back and to have open,
clear and transparent communication.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Is it. No, it's not.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
And that's one reason that we're bringing you this program
tonight because they're supposed to hold a meeting on November
seventh in Brekridge County. And I want to make sure
the public and some of those commissioners who voted for
this get educated about the facts about CWD and not
(07:39):
all this hype. Because when you break all this down,
Gabe Jenkins, who's now Deputy Commissioner, used to be in
the Game Management Division, has the personal agenda against baiting
and the feeding of wildlife. He has openly stated that
in the past, and I see this coming to the
(08:01):
fore here. Why by instituting these bands and making these zones,
the department can get federal grant money, huge moneies, which
they already have in some other areas. And I'm sorry,
but I'm gonna follow the trail, follow the money guy,
And I'm afraid that's what drove this move. And example Scott,
(08:25):
they voted to ban baiting, but in the CWD response,
they're supposed to put up check stations. Oh no, they
didn't want to do that. They bypassed that part, didn't they.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Well, I think if you look at CWD, Jim, and
if you just look at testing in general, a lot
of times when you test for a certain thing that
you're looking for, a lot of times you're gonna find it.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
So statistics don't lie. Statisticians do.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
If we perform tests and we get more tests taken,
there's a good chance that we're going to have more data.
I don't understand in this situation why we wouldn't want
to have as much data as we could possibly have
to work with. There is a tremendous amount of concern.
You've spent your time this week talking with individuals. I've
(09:20):
spent my time talking with individuals, but this is not
in the state of Kentucky. I've spoke with landowners and
states that have been dealing with CWD and outfitters in
hunters who hunt in CWD states, and for several years,
folks have been informed like it was going to be
the end of the deer herd. Several measures were taken
(09:43):
in states like Wisconsin and others that have proven not
to help. We have seen in states that do not
allow mineral or baiting at all that they still have
an increase some of the highest counts of CWD among
their deer herd. Well over the years, anybody that has
(10:04):
spent time afield, whether you're talking about what trees have
been given out to society, what plants have been recommended
to be planted, many times jim government has failed only
to find out years later that the advice that they
were giving and telling people to follow were absolutely not true.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Well that's the reason.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
No one's going to take this CWD problem. No one's
going to take and not give it the consideration it needs.
It needs it. But the banding, abate, supplemental feeding, mineral,
it's a perfect example of throwing the baby out with
the bath water. We need to look at what our
(10:50):
deer populations are. We need to realize that people have
an agenda, and that is that we're going to have
to harvest deer. But just to all of us of
us make a decision to not have any baiting in
those three counties without all parties there that are representing
the responsibility of making these decisions. I just don't support
(11:12):
what was done, and I have not talked to many
sportsmen or women that support what was decided on, and
many did try to reach out, and they did try
to have communication with folks that never answered the phone
or returned an email.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Well, and Commissioner Matt Rhades, who has two of those
counties in his district, asked a very cogent question that
goes to the heart of the issue. And what he
said is, I can't give you a direct crew, but
I certainly stand behind what I heard him say that
stop stopping baiting would seem counterintuitive if we needed to
(11:51):
kill lots of deer to take samples, And that goes
to the heart of this deal, because not only do
we need to do that, it's never been shown that
baiting causes or spreads CWD anymore than the things that
I've railed about for years, like licking branches where the
deer exchanged, the liva scrapes, where they interact, how to
(12:17):
groom each other. All those things come into it. And
Commissioner Cecil from the fourth who again voted no on this,
simply said, look, we don't have enough info. We need
to take care that innocent people aren't perceived as lawbreakers.
(12:37):
And one of the most telling things about what happened
in that meeting was the fact that they said, well,
if you already have out bait, if you already have
out mental licks, you don't have to take them up,
just don't put am more out. What in the hell
does that mean? Does that mean that old bait will
spread CWD more than new bait. When I heard that,
(13:01):
I couldn't believe my ears. It just didn't make any sense.
Like a lot of things in the meeting, I want
to point out one more thing real quick here. When
they instituted that band down in western Kentucky to mister Floyd,
admitted that harvest dropped twenty six percent after they did
(13:22):
that baiting band. Now you're talking about three of the
largest harvest counties in the state. Now that they're telling
people they can't put out bait, it's unenforceable, it's ill advised,
and it's crazy.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
And to advocate for our conservation officers, Jim, if this
state is going to have more regulations put into place
on how deer can be transported, on how deer processors
have to work, how taxidermists have to run their business,
and the ways in which you legally harvest a deer.
Then we need to see O in every county support
(14:00):
conservation officers. And I do too. But if you're going
to get the word out there and you're going to
spread things, these areas in what county games and fish
you know need a game ward and conservation officer and gone,
you know, months and years without one. I just want
to stand up and advocate for how important it is
(14:21):
to have a good representative on the legal perspective in
every single county because if you follow what has happened
with CWD, if you follow, it's probably going to appear
more likely than it is to go away. Everybody can
agree to that it's not going to go away. But
(14:43):
if you're going to put things into place, if you're
going to have regulations, if you're going to have people
that have to follow rules, then let's make sure we've
got game boards into place. Not to write tickets, Jim,
but to help get the word out and to help
make people know what they can do can't do because
at this last minute, this prior to the modern gun season,
(15:06):
not even having a grace window and just making things
immediately you know, going into place, it puts everybody in
a really tough position. Folks don't know whether or not
they're even hunting legally or illegally on their own land,
just because of how fast everything's developed and at any
given time, at any given time Roberts rules of order
(15:29):
and Parliament's procedure could have been put into place to
make this topic an area of subject to where people
could have gone away from the meeting, gotten more data,
guid and research, talk to more sportsmen and women and
come back after a small break and come to at
least the table with more answers and information than what
(15:52):
we had this week.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Absolutely, and again Commissioner Caecial Roads railed about the fact
that we didn't have the information from the Department agg
who regulates those facilities. And again this was a captive
deer behind a fence.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
So we're gonna.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Talk about this and more. We're gonna have doctor James
Crow talk about the facts of CWD here right after
this break. This break is presented by Massi O Property's
Heart Realty. Paul Thomas is a broker. You've got all
kinds of appital properties, farms and vacation homes for sale.
Check them out at M O p h a R
(16:32):
t realt dot com. Doctor James Crow, doctor Dare. He's
been kind enough to return to the program we had
him on several weeks ago about the facts about cw D.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
If you didn't hear that program.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
It's available on podcast uh at on the iHeart app
or at spreaker s p R e a k e
r dot com.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Doc, welcome back to the program.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Really appreciate you sitting in with us. Proud Well, uh,
we covered a lot of ground last time, but I
guess let's start with as you're aware, Uh, there has
been a confirmed case according to the department's testing of
(17:18):
cwdn uh. So there's a lot of questions people are asking.
Can we start with a brief overview for the folks
for what it is? And then I got a couple
of questions I'd like to run by you. Well.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
Cong wasting disease is part of a group of diseases
known as t S stands for transmissible sponge of forming epilopodies.
Translation is that it can be you can catch it
and it turns your brain to a sponge. That's that's
the way they defined it. And there are several species
(17:53):
of animals including humans who have their own unique types
of that disease, and UH it when it's manifested itself
in white tail deer and the deer n l H.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
It's been called chronic waste and disease.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
It's one of the common diseases that we find in
H and a lot of species of mammals, and it's
as they all are, including the ones in humans. It's
it's a fairly rare disease, but it's being promoted.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Is a is not a rare disease.
Speaker 4 (18:29):
There is a highly infectious disease, and there's absolutely no
no scientific evidence that it is highly infectious disease.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
It's a rare disease.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
I just got through analyzing, uh the data from every
state that has reported and is testing for CWD, and
with with the exception of a handful of of counties
in some states, it remains a rare disease.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Okay, uh doctor. The three questions I've like to ask,
or ones that I posed to you before. The first
one is isn't it true that CWD has been around
from fifty approximately fifty years and it's never decimated or
shown great negative impact on deer populations in any state?
(19:20):
Where it's occurred. Is that true?
Speaker 2 (19:23):
That is absolutely true.
Speaker 4 (19:25):
We've known about it since the late nineteen sixties when
it was recognized in a government research.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Facility in Colorado.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
And since then there has not been a single peerid view,
credibletic study that has shown that chronic wasting disease has
caused any deer population, whether it be white Hol's ar
mule deer, to decline.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Okay, second question, isn't it true that no human that
has had any illness or fatalities from CWD. There's no
crossing the humans and there's not been any single case
where it has been any threat to humans.
Speaker 4 (20:14):
That's absolutely correct statement. Since that time, there's been millions
of pounds, maybe millions of tons of benison eaten by
human beings, and not a single human being has contracted
chronic wasting disease. The CDC, when you go to their
website or when it shows up in a state like
(20:36):
it just did in Kentucky, I lay you money without
seeing the press release. It had the standard boiler plate
that the cd CDC says that humans have not been
shown to be able to contract chronic wasting disease. However,
they recommend that you don't eat a deer that is
(20:57):
obviously ill, which any hunter out there, it's not going
to eat a deer that it is obviously unwell in
the first place. So, yes, you're absolutely right. Not one
single scientific study has shown that. As a matter of fact,
the opposite is true. The excellent study done at the
University of California, San Diego that showed that human beings
(21:21):
have a unique resistance to chronic waste and disease.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
And is that because this peculiar to the served family,
the deer family.
Speaker 4 (21:35):
Yes, it's absolutely it's it's unique to it. And we
have a see a preon they're caused by this disease
is caused by aaberant treons.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
We have these things called prions or proteins that run
run around our nervous systems, and there's debate about what
they do. But initially what they do is good. But
when they become distarted, they they can do damage to
the nervous system. But each species out there has got
its own set of preons.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Okay, Now, there's all kinds of things that have been
tried in cases of CWD in various states. And I
know you've been heavily involved in Wisconsin and consultant and
many of them. Can you share with the audience what
(22:32):
your experiences like that have been and what some of
the pitfalls and or successful strategies have been.
Speaker 4 (22:44):
Well, there haven't been any successful strategies. There's not a
single state out there that using the techniques that they
keep using roadly have had any impact at all on
the distribution of chronic wastes. Now you'll get an argument
back from some folks about that New York was able
(23:06):
to stop it. That was one deer, one deer, and
there wasn't another one, and then most recently one more
showed up. But there hasn't been using these techniques that
I called draconian, does it work? I mean my work
in Wisconsin and my two colleagues that were on the
(23:27):
committee with me, we pointed out that they killed one
hundred and seventy two thousand deer in southern Wisconsin outside
of the season, including spotted fawns, and after they got
through doing that, it had absolutely no effect on the
distribution of abundance of chronic waste and disease. And as
(23:50):
a matter of fact, heronically that their populations in that
area of increase.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Okay, can you speak to the scarcity of transmission again
in a way that folks I know you've run some
figures by me. It's such a low percentage. I think
you mentioned Missouri and some other states in our conversations.
Can you tell folks what has a curred no state?
Speaker 4 (24:21):
Oh yeah, let's take Missouri where this one deer may
have come from or been influenced by that you've got
in Kentucky. There By the way, I've been expecting you
to be calling me in and because I knew center
later that Kentucky would find one.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
If you search for something long enough, you're going to find.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
It, and they found it in a very logical place.
But Missouri, who's been sending out letters talking about depopulating,
the state wide infection rate is point one seven percent.
Point one seven percent. Now, that's not exactly something that
would cause you to set your hair on fire, go
(24:59):
running down the street excrement. That's that confirms what we're saying,
is that it is a rare disease.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
And additionally, it takes dear years to succumb to that disease.
Is that true?
Speaker 4 (25:17):
Yeah, seventeen months to four years is what folks are
saying now after exposure to the disease. Uh now was
what thing I want to point out? Testing positive for
CWD prions is not the same as having CWD disease.
(25:41):
It's just your testing positive that these animals, the vast majority,
high numbers, high percentage is ninety nine percent probably of
animals that test positive for the preons do not have
do not have clinical CWD. They are very healthy animals.
You would not tell them from any other animals. It's
(26:02):
very difficult for anybody out there, professionals or otherwise to
find deer that clinically died of chronic wasting disease. Now,
am I saying that deer don't die from chronic wasting disease?
Absolutely not. They certainly can, and some of them probably do.
But here's the point. Generation time for whitetail deer is
(26:24):
three and a half years. What generation time is is
how long it takes for the herd to turn over.
By the time a deer could become become clinical from CWD,
it's been killed and eaten by something for two years.
And that's one of the reasons why I said that
chronic wasting disease would not affect the reproduction and populations
(26:48):
of white tail deer, and it's turned out. I'm absolutely right.
There's not a single periodview study that has shown that
CWD could affect reproduction and herd growth in white tail deer.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Why, in your opinion, is there so much talk about
dear eradication areas when it's not proven effective. I can't
get my head around that.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
I can't.
Speaker 4 (27:15):
I can't get my head around it's totally illogical. You
see an excellent publication PEERI viewed journal publications and that
let me back up this a minute. I noticed that,
you know, you're a Kentucky management plan. It's not really
all that bad. It's at least they they've learned some
things from the other states. But it's it's amazing to
(27:41):
me that that they don't realize that they say in
there that they follow the science. All the states say
they follow the science. My gosh, I'm a scientists. I've
been a scientist for fifty years. I am adamant. I
religiously followed the science.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
And that's what I'm doing.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
What I'm saying these things is that but CWD is
not a density dependent disease.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
A density dependent disease.
Speaker 4 (28:07):
Would be like COVID, where the infection rate is proportional
to how many people are packed in a small area. Well,
and chronic wasting disease. It is a frequency dependent disease.
Individuals have to be exposed over and over again in
order to come down with it.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Now, then we'll talk about science. Let me quote some
science to you.
Speaker 4 (28:31):
One of this guy named Mike Miller, who's a really
good scientist. He was one of the guys in the
associated with Beth Williams out there in Colorado that when
they first found this. He had an interesting study. He
experimentally placed nine CWD named mule deer in three pens
(28:52):
of three to contain new deer carcasses that died of CWD. Okay,
nineteen percent of the cd nave mule deer became infected.
That means eighty one percent did not catch it, and
they were in there with a animal that had succumbed
to it. In another research project, he experimentally exposed three
(29:14):
groups of three deer each to CWD. Naive mule deer
were placed in pins. One set of the three pins
it had been occupied by a CWD.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Infected animal for two years.
Speaker 4 (29:27):
Another one with a c w carcass and a third
one in three pins with CWD infected animal a living
animal which has been infected by CWD. Okay, A total
of sixteen percent of the CWD nave deer in the
three experimental conditions and nine pence became infected and eighty
(29:47):
four percent did not become infected. Now you tell me
if that means that this is highly contagious.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Yeah, just doesn't add up. And I'm glad you I
did those studies. I wasn't aware of those and that
that really helps to to put some perspectives on that. Okay, folks,
I got to go to break here again. This is
(30:16):
excerpts of an interview I did with doctor Krohle that
were previously recorded, because I want folks to know that
these are the facts about CWD, not some of this
stuff that's been banned about by people who apparently aren't
willing to learn from what other states have encountered. That's
(30:37):
one of the things that's continually frustrating to me. All Right,
this break is presented by SMI Marine. Take your boat
in and get ready for the winter before the rush.
Remember you never get soaked by my friends at SMI Doc.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Unfortunately in a lot of the states that have dealt
with CWD.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
And Kentucky, I think it's gonna phone in line with
what I'm gonna speak to here, and I say unfortunately
because it's disturbing to me they're equating feeding of deer
mental sites and baiting for deer with dangers for the
(31:19):
herd to contract CWD. And my thoughts on that is
to refute that argument that deer, because of their social structure,
are always interacting with one another, licking each other, grooming
each other, defecating and urinating around licking branches where they
(31:43):
trade saliva in addition to all the above, and of
course scrapes when bucks scrape, the deer in the area
tend to come to those and check them out. And
dear need supplement, Do you need additional foods? Can you
speak to that particular issue please in your thoughts?
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Yeah? Sure again.
Speaker 4 (32:08):
Uh, you know, let me back up a little bit.
When CWD shows up in a state, it is a
it's sort of a boon to agencies because so my
my colleagues out there the wildlife management of firs there,
(32:29):
they were trained scientist like I was. They have a
philosophical bias against intentioned deer management. Uh. This has gone
on for as you you know, of all people, there's
tremendous interest among the landowners and hunters and managing deer
and supplemental feeding is certainly a part.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Of of that thing.
Speaker 4 (32:54):
But what happens when CWD shows up is something that
may sound familiar to you considering our experiences in the
past with COVID, and that is there's a thing called
emergency rule. If the if the governor declares the emergency
rule over an issue that is deemed as something really
(33:15):
bad is going to happen.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
It actually suspends the Constitution.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
And there are a lot of things that that academic,
academic wildlife biologists and some agency biologists have hated about
about their management.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Is they don't like they don't.
Speaker 4 (33:34):
Like protecting euroin bucks. They really don't like that because
that affects affects their their hardest. They don't like supplemental feeding.
They certainly don't like dear breeders.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (33:46):
And this is a golden opportunity without much Democratics say
to to put a halt in a band or all
things they disliked over the years, a lot of the
states are are moving away from uh ant restrictions to
protect eur only bucks and certainly with baiting. Now there again,
(34:12):
I'll go back to science. There is there is no
published science that shows that a baiting band has ever
done anything to stop curtail, eliminate or whatever of chronic
(34:33):
waste and disease. It has not happened. That it's not
out there. Now they'll they'll use uh laboratory science, what
I call Frankenstein's science UH to justify banning things like
like baiting and feeding and mineral supplementation.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
UH.
Speaker 4 (34:55):
Probably one of the most respected probably publications ever done,
was done and by Science, the journal Science, where they
did all sorts of horrible things to deer. They injected
a white tail phone with two hundred and fifty milli
laters of contaminated blood and they did that to three
(35:20):
of them and they became insected with CWD. Well, where
in nature is free ranking deer ever going to get
a two hundred and fifty milli lead blood transfusion from
a disease deer?
Speaker 1 (35:35):
All right, folks got to go to break.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Here.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Coming back from break, we're gonna talk more with doctor
Kroll and some of his very illustrative examples of why
these bating bands, et cetera do not work and why
our folks have had this perpetrated upon them by some
(35:57):
of the official Life commissioners who are have never heard this.
They seem to be following the information given to them
by Deputy Commissioner Gabe Jenkins, who has the very type
of bias that doctor Crole is talking about, which is
he doesn't like dating or supplemental feeding of deer. So
(36:20):
we'll be back right after this. The break is presented
by Moscow Property's Heart Realty. Check out their listenings at
m p h A r T realt dot com.
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