9-29-24 - Dale Weddle

On tonight's show, Scott Cronin and Jim interviewed Dale Weddle, an official measurer for Boone & Crockett, Pope & Young Buckmasters and the Longhunters Society. They discussed the scoring systems and whitetail deer national and state statistics and trends.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (01:00):
Good evening everyone, Jim Straighter here and man, do we
have an information pack show? For me tonight, My good
buddy Dale Weddle, a gentleman that I've known for more
than thirty years, is going to be home with us.
And Dale's an official measure for Booding, Crockett, Poping Young
buck Masters in the Long Hunter Society, and during these

(01:23):
thirty years, as as a measure, has measured over three
thousand Kentucky whitetail beer, which resulted in over twelve hundred
entries in the various record books. Dale's also served as
a panel judge for both Boone and Crockett and Pope
and Young. He's also a freelance writer. A lot of
you probably have seen his writings in various outdoor magazines

(01:44):
like Buck Masters, Rack Magazine, North American White Tail, Kentucky Field,
and Kentucky Outdoors. Dale's written and had published over two
hundred and fifty articles on Kentucky's trophy whitetails and has
included stories on ninety seven counties down the number of
one twenty in the state. He currently submits around twenty

(02:07):
five to thirty articles per year on Kentucky trophy bucks
to Buck Masters and Rack Maazine. Scott, I know you're
as excited about this as I am, let's roll out
for the folks some of the things we're going to
cover tonight, because it's really going to be fun and informational.

Speaker 3 (02:25):
Jim, there's no doubt that anybody that goes afield is
at some point in time going to be available to
take a trophy animal. Some folks they just go to
the woods to hunt, and they're not necessarily looking for
a trophy, but sometimes that's not always the case. And
then there's other folks that are more determined to actually

(02:48):
go after more mature animals and actually set out on
a quest to harvest those. And there's a system in
which folks can utilize some record keeping and different types
of rules that are set by different groups in order
to put those animals into a record book. But most importantly,
what I'm in tune for tonight and ready to listen

(03:12):
up on with Dale is there's trends and patterns about
where our deer especially are coming from, not just counties
but also states that are hitting these record books. And
there's been a big shift Jim, and what animals are
coming from where over the last five to ten years,
and I think a lot of folks may be putting

(03:34):
their tree stands or sitting on the ground waiting for
that monster buck.

Speaker 4 (03:37):
Maybe in the wrong spot.

Speaker 2 (03:40):
Yeah, yes, sirs. My buddy Roger Raglan always says, you
want to kill big bucks, you got to hunt where
there are big bucks. So we'll stir that pot and
talk a lot about other aspects of you know, which
weapons are producing most trophy animals, et cetera. So stay tuned.
Want to be back right after this. This break is

(04:02):
presented by SMI Marine. Go see them, get ahead of
the rush to get your boat ready for winter. And
remember you never get soaked by my friends at SMI.
And we're back, and I wanted to introduce my longtime
friend Dale. Well, Dale, can you hear me? Okay? Okay, brother, Yes,

(04:26):
sir Dal. Before we get rolling here, I want to
give a very sincere and heartfelt thanks to you for
your dedication through all these years, both scoring hundreds of
deer at my expo, which is where you and I
started rolling down the road many many years ago, but
most importantly on behalf of the thousands and thousands of

(04:49):
folks who's deer, elk, bear and other game animals you've
measured and for the hundreds of thousands of folks that
have enjoined your articles through the years in all these magazines.
You're you're a legend, buddy.

Speaker 4 (05:05):
Jim, I appreciate that. I'll work clear something up that
Scott said. I'm not going to be giving out any
GPS coordinates now. I might be able. I may be
able to tell you which right to ports your vehicle
or you go, but I'm sure we can do that. Jim,
I appreciate it. I always appreciate what you've done, uh

(05:26):
for the hunters in Kentucky and the Expo used to
get a lot of fun and enjoy your show, enjoy
what you do. You take on some difficult issues for
us sometimes.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
So good to be with you tonight, Yes, sir, Then
I guess let's start out with the history of these
organizations that you made here for and some of their standards,
so folks can get a grasp for, you know, just
which organizations are out there where they might want to
apply it to be able to get into the books.

Speaker 4 (05:59):
As you said, Jim, I I'm an official measure for
Booney Crockett, Pope and young buckmasters a loan in our society,
and start off and telling your listeners a little something
about each one of those four organizations. Each one has
its own unique history. Of course, it all started back
in eighteen eighty seven with Boone Crockett. Booney Crockett was

(06:22):
started by Teddy Roosevelt and a fellow named George burg Grennell,
and I hope everybody everybody would have a pretty good
idea who Teddy Roosevelt is. But at the time they
started Booney Crockett, they had a growing concern that market
hunting was just decimating wildlife populations such as bison out west,

(06:43):
and flat tail populations had almost have been wiped out
in your east the Mississippi and other species. We're seeing
numbers reduced at alarm and rage. But these guys Roosevelt,
Grentel and mothers felt like, if something was done, we
want to see a lot of that almost reduced to
just very small numbers or even go extinct. So they

(07:06):
started the Boonecrockett Club with a focus on wildlife conservation
and getting some laws in place on the national level
that would guarantee good, healthy, hontable populations. And they work
the forefront of the establishment of game laws and fair
chase hunting and establishment of a lot of public land

(07:26):
and that focus continues with Boonekrockett. Today. A lot of
people only know about the work of the club because
of the scoring system, but about a whole lot more
than scoring animals. And the scoring system came about Atink
around nineteen and two and started as a management too

(07:48):
will be able to compare numbers of healthy animals and
to track trends and those numbers and be able to
use the data to make necessary management decisions. And Rosevelt
grenn All and these guys were hunters and we were
very lucky to have them involved in our life management.
Eventually developed into the North American model of the wildlife conservation,

(08:11):
which is recognized worldwide as one of the most successful
conservation efforts in history. So bn C currently has thirty
six categories of big game animals and an official measure
has to be able to measure all of those, including deer, elk,
bear cats, cariboo, whose stronghold, sheep, bison, Ricky Mountain, Rocky Mountain,

(08:35):
the old Muskoks. I mean, we have five categories of
those in Kentucky that are huntable, three different species. We
have typical and non typical whitetail deer, typical and non
typical American alk and black bear. So Boone Crockett record

(08:56):
keeping was originally set up just to honor of the
animal and not the hunt. So the record's office accepts
animals have harvested with any legal weapon gun kills, boat kills,
crossbow kills, pickups, as long as they meet the minimum
score and they're legally harvested and meet the clubs requirements
for fair chase and go through official measure and acceptance process.

(09:21):
And it's kind of Boone to Crockett in a nutshell.
You can, if you're interested in more, you can visit
their website www. Boone slash Crockett dot org. So do
you have any questions on Boone Crockett or well just.

Speaker 2 (09:37):
For posting, aren't familiar? Talk about what it takes to
get deer in the record books and elk and bear
since we've got all those species here.

Speaker 4 (09:48):
Well, well, the process for getting an animal entered is
you get in touch with an official measure. We're listed
on the websites of the various organizations. Uh, you're required
or supposed to bring your animal to normally at her
home or whatever location that we we work out of.

(10:09):
I'm a little bit different and I travel more than
most measures, and I've been able to do that over
the years by kind of doing enough stories to cover
travel expenses. But you should call it official measures. Set
up the time to bring your with, say your white
tail deer, and that measure then goes through the process

(10:32):
of touching. Measurements also help you fill out the different
paperwork that's involved and take photos for you, collect the
fee for you, and package.

Speaker 2 (10:44):
All that up and send it in for you and
the the UH and for UH these animals to qualify,
give the minimum scores that would qualify on the three
species if you will.

Speaker 4 (10:58):
Well, for Bodie Crockett, what tail typical is one sixty
non typical, one eighty five, for elk elk is three
sixty typical, three eighty five non typical, and then Boone

(11:19):
Crockett minimum for bear is his twenty inch skull. Yes,
let me get on into Pope and Young and buglashs
and we'll both courts do. But Pope Young is an
archery only bow hunting organization that started in nineteen sixty
one by Filling named Glen Saint Charles and a group

(11:40):
of bow hunters and Pope and Young's it's named after
a couple of bow hunting pioneer Saxon Pope and Art Young,
who set out in the turn of the century that
just proved that big game could successfully be taken with
bow and era and they these guys were able to
harvest about any size animal from Grizzly on down. And

(12:01):
then Saint Charles and his group were started Poping Young
to promote both seasons all across North America, and they
are responsible for a lot of the state seasons we
have today. For the past sixty years, they've continued to
fight for bow hunting rights and they're credited it was
starting the initial spark that caused bow leunning to spread

(12:23):
across the country, and Pope Young got permission to use
Boone and Crockett's scoring system to set up a separate
set of records just for animals hosted harvested with bow.
Those records recognize it's harder his econd animal with bow
versus guns, so the minimum entries are lower. There's a

(12:43):
few other minor differences. Poping Young recognizes thirty six categories.
Unlike Boone and Crockett, they except velvet entries in the
separate categories, so that's one of the differences Boon Boone
and Crockett Pope Young. They've begun to work a lot
together in the last several years and so far as

(13:05):
holding joint training classies for measures. So when I when
I started back in nineteen ninety, you had to go
to separate, separate measure and training sessions. So I ended
up having to go to Pope Young and Booming Crocket.
So now if you're training from an organization, you can
train for the other one at the same time. I

(13:29):
don't have a lot lot to say it against about
long how long our society is a strictly for muzzle
loading entries started in nineteen eighty eight with the National
Muslim and Rifle Association based in Friendship, Indiana, and they
have permission to use the Bune Crockett system too, so

(13:49):
also recognizing the difficulty in the weapon, they have lower
minimum scores too. So it's back up and get the
minimum scores for Pope and Young for our three species
in Kentucky, the Poping Young typical minimum score for Wattail

(14:10):
is one twenty five, non typical is one fifty five,
Pope Young Elk is two sixty typical three hundred non
typical long hunter elk is uh, that's kind of strange.
Is actually less than for for bok kill two fifty

(14:32):
five for typical and two sixty five for non typical
and long hunner typical deer one thirty non typical one sixty.
So the long hundred typicals, it's pretty low there. For
one thirty, that's probably one of your easier trophies to attain.
Let's see black bear for Pope long haul of eighteen.

(14:56):
So back to any more questions on those most.

Speaker 2 (15:00):
Two, Well, how about the velvet category? Can you speak
to that?

Speaker 4 (15:07):
Well, the velvet up until just a couple of years ago,
Pope Young had a kind of separate recognition for velvet.
They didn't recognize it as one of the formal categories.
They put you in a book in a separate place.

(15:28):
Just recently, over the last two or three years, it's
been about two three years, I guess they've they've started
accepting the velvet animals into a separate category. Measure those
just the way you went a heart antler. There's a
little bit more shrinkage I think in velvet with a
heart in or I tell you've you've probably got one

(15:50):
to two inches shrinkage in sixty days, and I've seen
velvet interests that could go four or five six inches
shrinking punt. The Kentucky's obviously at the forefront of velvet
with the early season. I mean, we we have a
lot of we're just number two I think in in

(16:12):
the non typical velvet category in North America. Yeah, big
velvet that was taken back in Ureenburg County back several
years ago, and we're just just almost an inch I
think off of the world record on the typical velvets.

(16:32):
And when we get into talk about matches, we just
we've got all kinds of records and buckmasters in velvet categories.

Speaker 2 (16:40):
Yes, and we'll cover those after the break here. Before
we go to Breakdale in that velvet category to the
same scores qualified, they.

Speaker 4 (16:51):
Do it, same scores typical Fine Florida. There is one
difference in poping young and that they require fifteen inches
of having normal point to go non typical, and anything
under fifteen has to be sort typical. Uh So that's

(17:11):
one difference between Top and Boone and Cockett. Boone and Cockett.
If you've got to have no inches, they'll let you go.
And neither one what the hunter wants you to do? Okay,
very good.

Speaker 2 (17:23):
I knew there was there was a little little wrinkle
in that. I'm glad you puged that up for sor right,
folks got to go to break here. This break its
presented by Paul Thomas at Bostil Property's Heart Realty. He's
got all kinds of great outdoor listings up. You check
all those listings out oft mo op h A r T,
real peed dot com. The uh the next organization we

(17:47):
need to talk about his Buckmasters and it's got a
lot more categories than some other differences from the others.
So can you dive into that force?

Speaker 4 (17:58):
Uh yeah, buck mass So it's got to start. In
the nineteen eighties, there's an outfitter in Alberta, Canada named
Russell Thornbury, and he developed an alternative system for measu
whitetail only and Russell he won a system that wasn't
concerned about symmetry or side to side deductions like movie

(18:21):
Crockett Is. You know, the Booney Crockett system is considers
a perfect looking animals balance one side to the other,
so they take the side to side deduction score for
net score and so Jack Russell had started this system
up in Canada, and in nineteen ninety six Jackie Bushman

(18:45):
got together with him and Buckmasters adopted this under their brand.
So Jackie, most people I know would know Jackie Bushman
and he has got it. Started to Buck my TV
show back in nineteen eighty five, which was one of
the most successful TV shows, and started the annual Axpoe

(19:09):
down at Montgomery, Alabama that continues on today. But the
Bugmasters Trophy Records or BTR, it's a system similar to
Boone Crockett. The measurements are taking the tinal infants, circumferences
are taken the same way, but the BTR scoring system

(19:29):
comes up with two numbers, a total gross number and
then that's one number. The other numbers are total allanches
which has arrived subtracting the inside spread. So then BTR
ranks deer by total alanches. Those are the two numbers.
And when you get your certificate, which is in almost

(19:50):
all cases, your gross score under Bugmasters is going to
be the same as it is under the Bernacrockett system.
Those four or five instances for those they're different. But
the big the big difference with the with Butt Masters
is a large number of categories that they break the
animals down into. Where where Booty Clocket has two categories

(20:14):
typical nontypical, and therefore they've got the two world records,
Pope Young has four categories because uh they have the
hard antler and velvet. Buckmasters breaks racks down into four
categories based on percentage of admimal point or a regular point,

(20:37):
and those the perfect, typical, semi, irregular, and irregular. Then
they have eight methods of take or weapon es. They
even they even break UH archery down into uh compound
long bowl record, so they end up with you've got
eight methods of tape, four four different categories, so that's

(21:00):
thirty two different types of hard antler, and then you've
got another thirty two of velvet. So you have sixty
four categories and end up with sixty four potential world records.
So that's what makes bug mashres a lot of fun.
You're comparing if you took it a deal with a recurve,

(21:24):
you're comparing to the other recurve shooters. So with Velvet,
with all the early velvet season, we end up with
a lot of a lot of world records. I've scored
three or four world records from Kentucky. They're good friend.
Joe Lacefield Youngs currently holds the long bow velvet typical

(21:44):
record the country. So that's the thing with bug Masters
and with bug Masters and all these other organizations. I
just encourage people to pick something you like and go
with it. If you don't like something about one system,
another system. And I score a lot of dealers that
they score a big compound keel that goes in the

(22:08):
bug Masters during the crocod and topo. So that's the
The entry score on the bug Maisters is for crossbow
and compound and all archery is one oh five. So
that's that's the Tootland ranches of the minor sins I

(22:31):
spread and for everything else is one hundred and forty
inches gone and pick up and so on. So that
kind of covers the four organizations in gym as best
I can.

Speaker 2 (22:45):
Well, that's a yeoman's task, and I think you've covered
it very very well, Scott. Do you have any questions
to those categories that you want to throw in here
or you feel like that's pretty much God has covered well?

Speaker 3 (22:58):
You know, one question that I have would probably be
more for someone who's never killed an animal that qualifies
for the record books. And that is say a person
goes out there and they harvest an exceptionally good deer
and they realize that it is going to score to

(23:19):
where they want to at least attempt to get it
put in the record book. Can they put that animal
in multiple categories? And and is that something that you're
able to do for them when you come to score
is let them know what would be their best route.

Speaker 4 (23:36):
Yeah, as I said, if they bring it to me,
Buck Rasters doesn't have a drind periods. If you kill
a bear, you can bring it tomorrow and we can
score it on the back of your tailgate before it's
even been processed. The Boone and Crockett organizations or the

(23:56):
organizations that use that system have a sixty day iron period,
so your racked if you're talking about a white tail
d or s to drive sixty days at room temperature
before you get an official score. So yeah, if they
bring that to me, as I said, I can help
them put it in anything it qualifies. Quite often do

(24:18):
a B and C and hoping young and bugmasters all
at one time.

Speaker 3 (24:24):
Well, and if someone wants to do that, Dale what
type of information would they need to provide you other
than the like for example, Kentucky, you would definitely have
to have a legal confirmation number. What other information would
would they need to have ready to give you?

Speaker 4 (24:42):
Well, Brillion Corockey requires a copy of the hot license
used to take the animal. So and with the advent
of this my profile, it's pretty easy to go back.
I think you go back about twenty years and to
get that if you don't have it the other that's
the only one of the that requires a copy of

(25:02):
the losses. But they do have a couple of rather
extensive forms that you have to fill out that has
a lot of information about you, what you used, and
you have to have to sign an affidavit that you've
followed the rules of fair chase, which is something we're
getting just getting ready to get into next. But it's

(25:23):
a responsibility of us to God. We're supposed to package
that up and put it all together and send it in.

Speaker 2 (25:31):
Well down to around this conversation about it out for folks,
it's much easier to get deer into the Buckmaster's record
book than the others as a generality correct much easier
as well, because it has so many different categories, and

(25:52):
they accept the velvet that hadn't been dried. In other words,
it's a little more liberal the score.

Speaker 4 (26:01):
The score generally is a little bit. Uh, if I
score a rack, it's easily easier to hit those minimums
for bug masters than yes for the others.

Speaker 2 (26:13):
Yes, that's.

Speaker 4 (26:18):
You know, I see a lot of you see a
one met coping young that's three inches under a minimum
and that very well not make the one oh five
without the insight spread. So yeah, I'd say I see
more of it. More deal. It's easier to get into
the bugle masters.

Speaker 2 (26:39):
Okay, very good, I'm gonna go to break. Coming back
from break, they do. I want you to get into
the fair chase rules and some of the things that
can disqualify animals because some of those are real eye opener,
and I don't think the majority of the audience knows
about some of them because a lot of it's new.
So stick with us till we're back from break. The
break is presented by us to my marine. There are

(27:01):
eleven four hundred West Point Road. Remember you never get
sold by my friends at a SMI maai. There's so
many new things out there technology wise, trail cameras, thrones,
uh uh, scopes that can calculate yardage, and all these
things have some of an impact on what these organizations

(27:24):
consider fair chase. Especially speaking about Crockett.

Speaker 4 (27:28):
And Poking Young.

Speaker 2 (27:29):
Can you go into that, you know what is fair
chase and then talk about some things that could disqualify
a trophy animals so folks don't get cheated out of it.

Speaker 4 (27:40):
I think it's really good we get that information out
and if we keep finishing this up before the break,
we can pick it up on my em. But I'm
just going to start by reading what fair chase is.
According to Moon and Crockett from their from their record books,
they consider fair chase the ethical sportsman lock and pursuit

(28:01):
of free range and wild game animals in a manner
which does not give the hunter an improper or unfair
advantage over the animal. The spirit of fair chase is
an attitude in a way of life based on the
deep seeded respect for wildlife, for the environment, and for
the other hunters. So Bugmasters has a rule that they

(28:25):
accept anything that is as long as it doesn't violate
any of the state game laws. They've got a very
simple policy. If it's legal in the state, then they
accept it. Boone Cock and Popignongi long Huner, on the
other hand, have a fair chase standard which is quite

(28:48):
a bit higher than just regular laws in love cases.
Some of the things that would get your animals disqualified
spotting or her game from the air, which is probably
more common in Alaska somewhere like that. Let's see, obviously,

(29:14):
happy inst animals aren't accepted. Swimming animals aren't accepted. One
of the things that I've gotten into here recently is
a new electronic sighting devices that actually calculate your reardage.
They have those in both for both raffles and bows,

(29:37):
and that would disqualify you from the new cock it
or copagnon use those use of electronic communication devices like
walky talkies or cell phones to direct someone to an animal.
And the one thing that's specific to to wear bear

(29:58):
hunting here and you and I talked earlier about also
when to find the mountain lions in the West, is
that there's two things considered for fair chase. One, the
hunter has to be present when the dogs are released.
You can't have an outfitter go out and turn dogs
lears and call you up and say I've got something

(30:19):
to treat. And the other one, which I've ran into
quite a bit here, is dogs may have a track
and collar on them during the chase, but the receiver
has to stay off during chase and harvest. You can
have a track and collar on your dog to retrieve
that dog if it's lost, but you can't use that

(30:41):
track and collar during the hunt to locate the animals.
I've actually had some instances where we've had some bears
that got caught up in that situation. That and you
and I talked about drones, Jim, and I'm not sure
that I've not gotten classification our clasification on that yet. Way,

(31:05):
I mean, I really hate to speak to drums. The
last thing, and a really important one, is used to
sell cams. There's a lot of misunderstanding on sell cams.
You can use a cell cam as long as it
isn't used in real time. That means that you can't
be sitting at your desk working and you get a

(31:27):
pain on your phone and you go out and shoot
an animal in front of your camera. All other used
to sell cams and regular cameras there. So I hope
we got that list over in time for break here
and if you want to discuss that, and if.

Speaker 2 (31:45):
We got some time, well we got about four minutes
before break. But the drune situation, I am sure is
going to be addressed in a big way in the
future balding fishing game agencies, because if there was ever
a wrap to an unfair advantage, in my opinion, that's it.
I mean, these guys that do retrieval on these wounded

(32:08):
animals with drones. You can see the deer's eyeball. I mean,
it's it's crazy what that technology can do. And obviously
if that were used as a direct or immediate scouting
tool to guide someone to an animal, I don't know
of anything that would be more unfair advantage than that.
And that's just my opinion.

Speaker 4 (32:31):
Well, I just checked on the I looked at the
Boone and Corockett website. I tried to going on the air,
and in the case that the use of drones would
would not be fair chase in scouting or in the
harvest of an animal, my question there, I'm my clear
own is what kind of a gap is there in time?

(32:52):
I mean, could you be using a drone in the
September to look over your land and then come back
and November and how disqualified that I'm not clear, So
I don't want.

Speaker 2 (33:05):
To well that that would be an extreme thought on
what I was trying to expound upon there, because if
it's directly involved in the harvest, then what have problems
with Scott? You got any quick thoughts on that you're
very familiar with.

Speaker 3 (33:28):
The main thing is, whenever drones are brought up to
the hunting world, folks need to understand that there's regulations
depending on what state you're in on even utilizing a
drone period to be to be hunting. There's so many
different laws that are always being changed and updated. That's

(33:51):
why it's so important, not just for the record keeping system.
Folks just need to make sure that they're staying in
touch with what's going on with game regulations. This is
one of the reasons that I advocate in so many
ways why we don't need to get rid of hard
copy publications of hunting regulations. Not all of our population

(34:14):
that's still hunting and engaged in hunting is tech savvy
or moved over to the email or the tech world,
So it's.

Speaker 2 (34:22):
A really big gray area.

Speaker 3 (34:25):
Just like Dale's getting that not just for the Boon
and Crockett or Buckmasters or poking Young.

Speaker 2 (34:32):
There's just a lot of gray areas period with.

Speaker 3 (34:34):
Drones and technology, and it's creating a lot of debate.
It doesn't matter how we look at things going with
trail cameras and live feed or whether it's the new
scopes or the new boat sites. We've just got so
many new innovative changes. I don't see any way around that.
Gendre's just gonna You're just gonna have to stay on
top of the books and the rigs.

Speaker 2 (34:55):
Yes, sir, I think you're going to see a whole
lot of states diving on this and make clear what
they consider uh fair chase. All right, we got to
go to break here. Coming back from Breakdale still with us,
we're gonna talk about Boone and Crockett, whitetail statistics and
trends on national STADIU in local or county bases, and

(35:17):
we're gonna talk about elk and bear records and some
of those trends as well. So we'll be back right
after the break which is presented by s and by Marine.
Go see them. They'll take great car of you. You
never get sunked at SMI Dale. Most of these states
go by the Boone and Crockett system for their overall

(35:38):
statistics about trophy animals. And I know no body out
there that I think's better serve to talk about some
of these statistics and trends that have emerged on a
national state in in Kentucky county level. I'm gonna turn
you loose to speak to that, because it's really interesting.

Speaker 4 (35:58):
I'm kind of like up here at a debate, I
need to go back and answer one question just real
quick here on these things that can qualify or disqualify.
I'm just run through Poping Young. There's several things that
have been improved just recently. Poping Young has no let

(36:21):
off room now, so they used to have a sixty
five percent. There's no let off rum Alted knocks are
now okay. They recently approved lighted sits, So all of
this is retroactive. If you've got a lotted site, then
you can go back. So with that said, we'd jump

(36:43):
into statistics a little bit. And as you said, most
people when you're comparing to use a Bunion crocket system that,
as I said at the very beginning, that's one of
the things the system was set up for was to
be able to compare data costs, different problems, instances, states,
and so on. So everybody's always interested in where we're ranked,

(37:05):
that with Boone and Crockett animals. So I'm going to
run down that. I've run off the top ten states
for all time Boon and Crockett entries, and I'm just
going to read those from one through ten. Number one
is Wisconsin, Illinois, Iowa, Minnesota, Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana, Missouri, Kansas,

(37:34):
and Texas. So we're coming in Kentucky at number six
all time Boon and Crockett's we have a total of
twelve ninety seven. Wisconsin is the only state with over
two thousand. They're at two thousand and seventy one. I've
kind of been keeping an eye on this. Ohio is

(37:55):
ahead of us. We're twelve thirty there, twelve ninety seven.
They've been widening that gap a little bit. And then
Indiana is behind this one and they've been they've kind
of been closing in on us. So right now number six,
all the time booming Crockett wattails. What is interesting. I

(38:19):
went in and ran the last five years, and I've
asked several people what states number one in the last
five years, and most people are missing that one, and
it's the most significant jump that I've seen out of
these stage But Indiana is the number one Boone Crockett
state in the last five years with two seventy two,

(38:41):
which has jumped a heed of Wisconsin. So the rest
of them are kind of shifted around. Were pretty much
the same actors and there so people might want to
save a little bit of gas going to Iowa and
head up north to Indiana. I know the Indiana folks
may not want to hear say that I've been saying

(39:02):
that I've never hunted eye. I've got five points. They're
I'd like to hunt at one time, but I was
a lot harder to enter, as I understand from Indiana.
It's pretty pretty hard to get it. Gotta have several
points to get into.

Speaker 3 (39:18):
That's that's a great point there too, Dale, is that
a lot of people do not realize to look at
the state of Kentucky and the state of Indiana. Those
are over the counter tags that are, you know, competing
with several states that you've got to wait and build

(39:40):
your point system up. So it's a it's a very
important point. I think that folks realize when when we
advocate and I'm gonna not put you in that boat when,
but when Jim and I advocate about how important it
is to look out for the well being of our
deer herd, we're looking at Kentucky, Indiana, states that are

(40:01):
truly carrying trophy deer and you don't have to wait
four or five or six years or a lifetime to
get into that state to hunt. And I just wanted
to let that point be made.

Speaker 4 (40:14):
Yeah, I didn't understand. I didn't know that Indiana was
over the counter, but I know a hunting Kansas. Kansas
is a little bit easier to get into than I
of it. It's still still a points system.

Speaker 2 (40:28):
Reference Dale I as a observation. I think probably one
of the reasons Indiana is it started to climb is
is they finally, you know, went to one buck rule,
which I got to give tremendous kudos to John Phillips,
who was our dear coordinator back in the day, who

(40:52):
you know, said look, one buck is enough.

Speaker 4 (40:55):
And it was.

Speaker 2 (40:56):
Contentious, you know, I uh, a lot of us fussed
about it, didn't.

Speaker 4 (41:03):
Everybody was enjoying that that two buck tag. But I
think it's just really you can't deny the results of
that twenty years or whatever it has been later.

Speaker 2 (41:15):
No, and clearly so since Indiana has gone that route,
I think that's a big reason for their climb. And
I you know, back in the day, I took a
lot of heat because I was a big advocate for
the one buck rule and wrote about it in the
Courrier and spoke to it. It just, uh, one one

(41:35):
really nice bucket year's enough for anybody that's you know,
especially with populations climbing the way they are and recruiting
a new hunter.

Speaker 3 (41:43):
So I just Jim, I remember years ago when you
spoke up about that one buck and you said, Kentucky
better watch out because it won't be long in Indiana
where they will surpass us than they have yep.

Speaker 2 (41:57):
And it's that one buck rule. And there their deer,
so much of their genetics are those Wisconsin deer, and
we have, you know, in the initial stages a lot
of Texas deer and Wisconsin deer, which is why we
see a lot of white antler, white rack, light lighter frames,
longer time bucks. The Texas genetics, and then when you

(42:21):
get into the Wisconsin genetics. This tends to be darker
antlers and more masks and a lot more kickers stickers.
At least that's my take on it, and that comes
from decades and decades of observation of what happened after
after they stopped out of those states. You can kind
of see some of those genetics showing up.

Speaker 4 (42:43):
Dale.

Speaker 3 (42:44):
I don't want to jump off in the weeds just yet,
but when we get back from break, I would love
to hear your comments in regards to Indiana, not just
because of the one buck roll that has been put
into place over the years, but also just for a

(43:04):
short window, would love to hear what your experience is
on the firearms or weapons that are maybe being brought
to you to harvest east deer in the state of Indiana.
Now I know, Jim, we talk about it a lot
each and every day about where the crossbow is and
how things have changed across the river in Indiana with

(43:26):
the new allowance of different calibers of firearms, and and
I think that's going to play a big row in
the years to come to what we see is as
far as the amount of deer just hitting the dirt
period in the state of Indiana.

Speaker 4 (43:38):
Yeah, I probably can't speak to that. I'm far enough
south that I don't see I mean, I've seen one
Indiana deer that I could think of down here in
the last three or four years, so I don't see
that many. I'm far enough south that I don't see
a lot of the measures around Louisville. Get those and

(43:58):
we got We've got a really good active measure in Indiana.
Stephen Taylor. It's a good friend of mine that Stevens
actually come down to help me work a pack show
the other day. So I don't know that I can
can speak to what's going on in Indiana. I wish
I could.

Speaker 2 (44:16):
Okay, well, let's get the break. Come back from breakday.
I want to get into the trends that you've seen
in Kentucky with the weapons and the counties that have emerged,
because there's some variables going on that are pretty dagone interesting.
So let's get the break here. This break is presented
by Molto Properties Art Realty. Check out all the listings

(44:37):
at m O P H A R T realt dot
com Dale having scored thousands of there in Kentucky, what
are the trends you see here in the state over
the state wide basis. I know you've got some thoughts
about which counties are emerging and there's just some interesting.

Speaker 4 (44:59):
Let's you do the same thing we did it with
the states. Let me just let me just go down
the top ten counties all time Boone Crockett, starting with
number one, Ohio County, Grayson County, Pulaski County, Christian County,
Breckinridge County, Todd County, Lewis County, Hardin County, Hart County,

(45:26):
and Logan County. They start, they goes all the way
from thirty seven and Ohio County down to number ten
Logan which has twenty nine. So that's the all time
Boone Crockett numbers for the counties. Lewis County. For a

(45:46):
long time, Lewis and Ohio kind of battle it out.
In Lewis, being in the northeastern part of the state
was really the only county I would say east of
our seventy five. It still is in the all time.
So the one thing we've seen there's Lewis kind of

(46:07):
dropping out. If we go to the last five years,
we see a lot of the same players here. The
last five years, starting with one through six. I'm going
to go one through six, Todd, Grayson, Harden, Pulaski, Breckenridge,

(46:28):
and Edmondson. So those a lot of the same players.
But here's where it gets interested. On seven, eight nine,
and ten, seven, eight nine, and ten Brettett County, Estell County,
rock Castle County, and the Dare County. So we see
four counties that have emerged. It wasn't even on the

(46:51):
map here. I don't have far I've had to go
down to find those. So those are those start with
brettt has five, Estell five, rock Caster of five. And
therefore so those are on the friends of the of
what I call when I talk about eastern Kentucky, I
generally think about, I guess more southeastern Kentucky where you've

(47:12):
got south of sixty four and east and about seventy
five and that area traditionally, as you know, has not
really produced that many trophy deer, but all that seems
to have changed in the last three or four years.
We've seen probably more deer coming out of that area

(47:33):
than we have the traditional far western part of the state.
So really interesting to see refit nest in particular or
getting over into that area and I know Pike County
has had pot County is going to be. I don't
see it on here, but it's it's we had a
big two hundred incher out of Park year before laston

(47:56):
and a couple more last year. So there it seems
to be Eastern Kentucky versus far West Jim and the
center always still producing pretty much consistently the way it
has for a long time. So that's what I'm seeing.

Speaker 2 (48:16):
Well, there's been significant EHD outbreaks in the west, could
be a factor. There's probably just a variety of factors here.
But one of the things that jumps out at me
in terms of talking about East Kentucky because the extensive
amount of honey I've done over there, is this difficult terrain.

(48:38):
Bucks got so many hills and hollers and mountains, the
River corridor. You know, it's not easy country to hunt.
And I guess the reason I'm pointing at that is
obvious that they're harder to locate, and they're in terrain

(48:59):
that allows for raid structure. And I know Scott wife,
go ahead, Dale, I.

Speaker 4 (49:08):
Said, my wife's from eastern Kentucky. We've been we've been
married forty years. This year, I get a little plug
in for her putting up with all of this stuff.
But when we first got married, I hunted some of
those counties that were in there quite a bit. And
you're absolutely right. It's right on almost on par with

(49:28):
hunting out west, except the air maybe isn't a stand
but it's a difficult, difficult hunt compared to walking out
in the middle of the field.

Speaker 2 (49:39):
Yes, God have a question, Scott got.

Speaker 3 (49:50):
Well, I was just going to ask Dale, are you
seeing any difference and scars the western boundaries and the
eastern boundaries of the state as far as maybe month
her time of years that they're they're more productive than others.
Are you seeing where maybe the late season than is
producing the bigger deers, it more towards the early season
with archery or you know traditional modern firearm.

Speaker 4 (50:15):
Well, we still we still see most of their deer
killed in in two phases and that that pretty much
falls through across the state. I mean, you've got the
first couple of weeks where they're in sower beans and
still got your velvet deer, and you know when they
move the acrens you've got you've got a sort of

(50:36):
a dead period that when you get into the pre
rut and the rut so in the late season is
pretty difficult. I think that whole is true pretty much
from east to west, I don't see I don't see
that much difference.

Speaker 2 (50:54):
Well, well, this is kind of ant ball question, but
I can't help but that I see all the time.
I see all the time these reports of these giant
bucks that are only three and a half years old.
You know, I go through a ton of them really
that way. But what do you see trend wise on

(51:18):
these record book deer? Do you have an estimation on
you know, what you think the average a structure is
for these moving crockets or is there such a such
a way to look.

Speaker 4 (51:29):
At I really, I really, I really don't. I don't
track that a whole lot. I'd have to go back
and just uh, you know, I can't age deer myself,
and most of these guys, by the time they bring
something here to be measured, they don't have a job
bone and you know, I depend on I'll shoot a
lot of photos off to Joe Lacefield for his expertise

(51:51):
on that. But it's not something that that that you
can track through the data systems of Boom and Cockett
that they don't have the age in there on the
database that I can look up, so I know we
can grow some pretty dog gone big antlers on the
three and nigh three and a hive year old deer

(52:13):
in Kentucky.

Speaker 2 (52:15):
Yes, sir, and now we always point to a lot
of factors. Every one of them, of course, is limestone.
You know that we got that limestone water and so
on it that has the minerals that really help booth that.
Of course, when you put age on them about any deer,
it looks pretty dagone impressive by the time they get

(52:35):
the fiber above. So all right, folks, got to go
to news break. This break is presented by SMI Marine.
Go see him to get your boat ready for winter
and avoid to rush, and I'll be glad to troubleshoot
any problems you're having with your boat, and they will
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you never get tooked by my friend at SMI down

(52:58):
here in Kentucky to the diligent efforts of contell your
Department of Fish and Wildlife. We've got two other species
that we all talk about, and that's the elk and bear.
I know you've got some perspectives and statistics there. I'd
like you to share those.

Speaker 4 (53:15):
Let me give you one more tree in here on
what tail, okay, And I'm just going to put this.
I'm just going to put this out for them. You know,
it's something I think we need to watch. I've tracked
since nineteen eighty two the total number every year of
boone Crockett in the state, and that's steadily gone up.

(53:36):
We had the highest number of the twenty twelve was
fifty four, or you know, twenty eleven was fifty nine,
twenty twelve was fifty four. In twenty twenty two we
fell under thirty for the first time since two thousand
and eight. And then this year at twenty twenty three,

(53:56):
we're at twenty nine and eighty and so we've got
to contegut years under thirty for the first time since
two thousand and eight. So I'm just gonna put that
help something. I think we need to keep the NYE on.
I'm not ready to say why. And maybe it's not
a cam maybe advounces maybe as you know, bear is,

(54:18):
I guess we talk about elk first. Since the elk
have been around along, it looks like we've had nine
Boning Crockett Elk taken in. I'm trying to find my
list of those we've had hav nine entered since the
program began. I think that's seventeen of the seventeen year

(54:42):
period we've had that nine, So us kind of hard
to tell. Un't have been scattered help for good. It
didn't seem to be going up or down from from
talking to hunters, I think everybody's in reality almost unanimous
agreement the number of helping running way down from what

(55:03):
it was maybe ten years ago. So the records aren't
really telling us a whole lot there. The Pope young
bulls taken archery we have we've had thirty three. I
can tell you where those some of the pot counties
and those that we've had seven each from Prairie and

(55:26):
not even the stick from bread. Those were the three
top counties for poping young bulls. None of a lot
to be gained from any kind of a look at eight.
There's any kind of trainers questions of discussion. I'm the

(55:48):
help numbers.

Speaker 2 (55:50):
Dare you're breaking up a little bit, but go ahead.

Speaker 4 (55:57):
You have any any discussion on the help number there?

Speaker 2 (56:00):
Did you get what I'm saying yeah, no, not in particular.
I I think that that the number of record book
animals that are being produced is pretty awesome. You know,
there's a real chance for a trophy animal out there.
But to your point, everyone that I've talked to this

(56:24):
knowledgeable in the area is very aware that the numbers
ELK are down and down considerably.

Speaker 4 (56:33):
And I don't know, I mean, that's a question for
kind of go forward on that mayor is a seems
to be exploding And I've hunted better the last two
both hunted bear the last two years and have some
plans that I know the spot this year. But we've

(56:55):
had ten Bayer entered and uh moving Crockett actually did
five of those teen and they entered in the in
the last year. The state record is was taken by
Griffin Wells in twenty seventeen in Berry County. The final
score of twenty two and two sixteenth, which is that's

(57:17):
a big.

Speaker 2 (57:17):
Better Oh my, that's your Yeah, that's a jughead of
a bear right there.

Speaker 4 (57:27):
We've only had one coping out.

Speaker 2 (57:29):
I just entered that for.

Speaker 4 (57:31):
Kenneth Jones in in Bell County. He took that back
in twenty eighteen. We're just now getting that into the books.
But there was a twenty and six sixteens made Polking
Young and and R. Crockett. So we're really starting to see,
uh see the numbers. I think clown on buyer. Yeah,

(57:53):
and here I pu last year. I've got a friend
of mine this has been last week, has been sending
me trail camp photo was of a bear that's visiting
these feeders. So I think it's just a matter of
time before we get some breeding females spread out here.
And most of what we're seeing on the fringe is
these young nadols just wandering. But I think we're on

(58:16):
the verge of seeing some expansion of that and a
good opportunity. Another good opportunity. There's a there's some negatives
come with it for a lot here about the white
tail hunters of the bear tear and the trail cams
down and chewing them up. They seem they seem to
hate trail cameras.

Speaker 2 (58:37):
Yeah, yeah, that is a very peculiar thing. Of course,
feeders just get destroyed. A bear it comes up on
a deer feeder heat, he's gonna rumorate about count on that.

Speaker 4 (58:50):
Yeah, year before lights, I was hunting young lady. She
put up a blind and left it and nothing looked
like he had been through it. Tornado the next day,
which she got here. They're not partial to blondes either.
I don't think Noertin seemed to just seemed to be

(59:11):
a contrary animal at times.

Speaker 2 (59:15):
Okay, thell I'm gonna take quick break here and we'll
be back after the break gets presented by Montiel Properties
Heart Realty. Check out their listings at m O p
h A R T Realty dot com. Dal, I know, uh,
you've covered a whole lot of ground in your career
with stories. Could you maybe point out a couple of
your favorites here that uh touched your heart or that

(59:38):
you found inspiring?

Speaker 4 (59:42):
Well, it's kind of hard to do, Jim. I'm I'm
a I think I'm a two sixty to sixty two.
So now, actually it's not it's not hard. There's there's
one or two that really stands out. And one in
particular I was just privileged to rite, was on the
Jason Koger buck back probably about ten years ago. Uh.

(01:00:07):
I think I think he took his book in Edmondson County,
but his story started quite a bit before that. He
uh Jason was riding a four wheel ATV back behind
his house with three of his neighbor kids hanging on,
and he hit a down carol line there and sent

(01:00:29):
a big I think he said, seventy two hundred vote
serge through his body and the kids. Uh. The kids
escaped injury, which was really a miracle. But uh, he
was airlifted out to Vanderbilt and I think he stayed
in Acoma for like three days. And when he came out,
both of his hands were gone right below the elbows,

(01:00:51):
so he became a double amputee. And but he and
his wife had had a couple of young kids, and uh,
his wife Jenny said, she went from having having two
kids the three kids that day and they just get it.
I gave a lot of Uh. They were people of

(01:01:12):
faith and they really get a lot of credit for God.
You didn't get them through that. But Uh, Jason, he
was he was just having outdoor hunted like a lot
of us. And he had a couple of friends that
about a month I think after the accident, Turkey Sees
was coming in. So these guys got him up. He

(01:01:32):
got an okay from his from his uh from his
doctor to actually go turkey hunting. So these guys got
out and rigged up They came over and rigged up
a shotgun, and they took the took the pad off
the back of it and put a ratchet stracket on
it and where he could strap at the shoulder, put

(01:01:54):
it on a tripod. He didn't have anything, he didn't
have his prosthetics yet, so they cut a piece of
string he could put in his mouth to pull the trigger.
He went out and killed the Jakes. That's that's the
determined that these guys just wasn't gonna let Jason. They

(01:02:15):
weren't going to let him just sit on the note. So, uh,
he went from there into just being a really an
advocate for people that have that have had similar situations,
and you could actually follow him. I think I'll just
checked back. It's still alive on Jason Koger dot com.

(01:02:39):
J A S O N K O G E R.
But he just went from from that and went forward
and uh, just turned that in if you could turn
something like that into a positive, he did. And he
ended up going out and a couple of years later

(01:03:01):
on the farm now at Edmondson County, and he killed
a boon and cocket that I got to bout about.
He killed that with a with a crossbow. So h
his his uh story is really uh, it's just a
testament to what what the Lord can get you through.

Speaker 2 (01:03:20):
Well. And then when you say he killed a boon
and Crockett, Uh, it was a monster deer. Describe that
deer a little bit that he killed the.

Speaker 4 (01:03:30):
Deer I think was uh. I think it made it
in the one sixties, but it had it had quite
a bit of a bigger gross number. And I don't
have that in front of me, but trying to see
I don't have it. But Jason's just outstanding the individual,
and he's available. He does he does motivational motivational speaking,

(01:03:53):
and it just really another thing happened. He had a
uh specialized set of hands made of company, and he
had a cameo role at one point in a movie.
So google up Jason Koger and read more about his story.

(01:04:15):
It's just amazing story. Yes, love of family, love of
family and love of God.

Speaker 2 (01:04:22):
And first admirance. Yes, sir dad, we got about six minutes.
I know you got a story about a child that
kind of touched your heart as well.

Speaker 4 (01:04:34):
Yeah, I and Meredith was was a fourteen year old
that back in twenty twenty two. His father had passed
away due to cancer a couple of years earlier, and
he and his brother liked to haunt and they were
left their mother. Actually they've got some tailtown photos of

(01:04:56):
a of a monster deer there in Grayson County, and
their mother sat down and set up a contract with
these two boys on the conditions that they were going
to hunt this deer. And Ian had got him on
he got him on trail camera, and he really was
watching wind and he was waiting on the perfect wind.

(01:05:17):
And one morning he got up and the wind was perfect,
and this fourteen year old goes up by himself, and
the deer hadn't been on camera I think till about
nine thirty, so he at nine thirty he got down
and started for home and he sees this deer on
the ground about one hundred yards away around the pond,
and this fourteen year old boy takes his boots off

(01:05:39):
with a with a compoumbo and he puts the stock
on his deer and he he ends up shooting and
I think of the ten yards and had had a
gross score of around two forty. I think for there
it was and there it was maybe a little bit
ten ten inches or so under that. But the largest

(01:06:01):
largest steal deer ever taken in Kentucky about by hunter
under sixteen years. So those are a couple of really inspirational.

Speaker 2 (01:06:14):
Well for a young man to have that savvy and
that drive and that ability to sneak in close to
that book, that's really good.

Speaker 4 (01:06:25):
And both of these boys had a they had a
mentor a teacher at school. They really put a lot
of time in and kind of stepped in after their
dad was lost and kind of taught these guys. Adam
French was his name. Give him a little chat out there.
He was mentored these boys and probably give up a

(01:06:47):
lot of hunting time himself to teach you how to
run turn cameras and things like that. So those are
a couple of my best stories. I got some lady hunters.
I was privileged to wrap the story of the largest
buck taken by Bridget Smith Back and that was in

(01:07:08):
twenty twenty two to two. That was a two d
and twenty nine for It's It's neit. Her and her
husband hunted together for thirty three years and Bridget called
she called us the Muddy Pond book because he was
out in the Muddy Pond. She shot it was snow.
I always loved those stores with snow on the ground.
But shot the Muddy Palm Buck with us with snow

(01:07:31):
on the ground. So we we're getting close to all
the time.

Speaker 2 (01:07:38):
No, we've we've got about four minutes here that that buck.

Speaker 4 (01:07:41):
H What did it score? Which one?

Speaker 2 (01:07:46):
Bridges Bridget was two.

Speaker 4 (01:07:49):
Twenty and that had two twenty nine to change?

Speaker 2 (01:07:53):
Man, that is a monster. What do you recall what
county that was?

Speaker 4 (01:07:57):
It was? It was in Webster County, Webster.

Speaker 2 (01:08:00):
Okay, I'll tell you what. I have seen three trail
camera pictures and contacts that I have in Webster. That's
a county that I think you're gonna have some real
monsters come out of it. Oh, here's a.

Speaker 4 (01:08:16):
Redo Webster's definitely. Of course, we've got the old Troy
Wilson buck was the biggest, biggest buck ever killed in Kentucky.
Was he was a Jewish show buck? When you had
the expo toy killed that one in Galaxy County. Take
around two thousand and two when Buckmasters has scored three
seventeen as something like forty eight points and there was

(01:08:40):
some questions, but that was a cryptochatism book if it
was if it was a cactus book, whether it whether
it was shed or not. But really most of those
Captus bucks don't have a they don't have a mane frame.
And Troy's had a pretty well to find a point
mane frame and had its had its genitals and attact

(01:09:03):
which is normally the reason for the Captus book is
it didn't continue growing, so the testosterone is gone. You
know that. That was a great story. Troys a great guy.

Speaker 2 (01:09:18):
Yeah. I remember when he killed up with that deer
uh and asked me, said where'd I take this? I said,
you tell you right here. I want to feel that
day in that weight and the mass of those antlers
was just incredible.

Speaker 4 (01:09:31):
I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:09:33):
It took a strong deer just to carry that right around.

Speaker 4 (01:09:36):
I'll tell you that. Yeah. It took me two hours
to initially to score it, and then we had to
come back and had another measure to come in and
we had to do a panel score. Since it's it
was a world record. It's out and you can see
that book out in the mass post purchase from him,
so it's out in the in Springfield Missouri. If anybody

(01:09:58):
ever goes through.

Speaker 2 (01:09:59):
That, well, it was quite a testimony to what Kentucky
can produce, There's no doubt. Damn. Thanks again so much
for sharing all this information, and again a shout out
to you for all the thousands of people you've helped
score their deer and get these deer in the record
books and share.

Speaker 4 (01:10:20):
I'll give you a closing statement here on that little bit.
I mean, let's go right back to all the way
back around to Boone and Crockett when it started. But
you know, if you have a Christian worldview like I do,
you know in Genesis God he made us in his
own image, and he gave us dominion over the fish
and the fowl and the air. But then he tells

(01:10:42):
us in Luke in twelve forty eight, for unto whoever
much is given, much as required. So we've been given
a lot, Jim, and much as required of us. It's
the responsibility, yes, sir, all right Oaks. That's a bright
God bless everybody.