The Facts of CWD with Dr. "Deer" James Kroll & Horace Gore, Legendary Whitetail Biologist - Hour 2

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Woke up five, put on acamouflage, whipped off for two forty three,
get fired up. My dog hitit out to my own dear stand
back in the pines. It's gonnagive me a ten point book where a
living inch time. I'm a backonce boy, grew up on a dirt

(00:26):
run. I'm a back once boy. No better place to go waiting on
a dear wishing on star. I'llalways be true to my mind because I'm
a back door its boy. Welcomeback to jam Straighter Outdoors. If you're

(00:56):
just going into program, we'll talkto tonight to do James Croll, known
nationally is doctor Dear and Horst Gore, who's retired White Tell program coordinator for
the Texas Person Wildlife and Gentlemen.We covered a lot of grounds here,
but I know Scott wanted to askyou a couple of questions about CWD in

(01:19):
comparison to other dear diseases. Scott, yes, sir, doctor, I
know that you've always been an advocatefor explaining the people the importance of native
brows and managing properties. But oneof the main things that I think we

(01:45):
can help the listeners with is Iwould like for you to explain to them
and and put it into the wordsand wisdom that you have about supplemental feeding
and supplemental forages. And what Imean by that is just looking at your

(02:06):
years of experience and where you knowfood plotting was coined, and we look
at mineral sights, and we lookat at feeders that do have supplemental feed
and looking at deer three hundred andsixty five days a year on the landscape,
being able to provide them optimum nutrition. What's your opinion with deer disease

(02:27):
and CWD along the lines of peopletrying to manage their dear herd and supplemental
feeding. Well, first of all, managed deer, properly managed deer our
disease resistant deer. That's true withany species, including humans. You know,

(02:47):
a few years ago, someone traveledfrom somewhere else in the world on
an airplane with a virulent strain oftuberculosis, and there was this panic that
everybody on that plane was going tocome down with tuberculosis, and the Lord
behold, none of them did.And the reason was that they were Westerners

(03:12):
and they were in for the mostpart, reasonably good physical condition. So
a healthy animal is a disease resistantanimal, and for too long. You
know, we went through the restorationphase for white tailed deer in the country,
and they were the emphasis was alwayson record harvest, record harvest,

(03:32):
and not on the whole idea thatsomebody would have to manage these animals.
And since eighty percent of the wildlifelives on sixty percent of the land,
that's sixty percent of private land,the job falls through the private landowner to
help us out and maintain a healthyresource. So, dear, dear,

(03:53):
management includes nutrition management as well.And I have absolutely nothing against nutritional supplements,
whether they be food plots or whetherit be feeds or whatnot, as
as long as they're you know,are scientifically and biologically u based. So

(04:15):
you know, the go ahead.I'm sorry, You're okay. Uh.
You know, there's, of course, the biggest the question I thought you
were heading we were heading down.I'll come back to this was what is
the most deadly deer disease? Andit clearly is hemorrhagic disease. Uh.

(04:38):
You know, the Bible says thatSaul has killed his thousands, but David
has killed his tens of thousands.Well, Saul can figure out is CWD,
and David is EHD, which isthe big killer being reread your deer
out on the landscape. C wD, I mean, EHD truly is

(05:00):
a dignity dependent disease, and spreadingyour deer out on the landscape is very,
very important, and a good supplementalfeeding program could be a very important
part of that, especially even withsub mental water. A lot of times
spokes do get EHD and CWD confused, and if you don't mind, dot,
just let them know the differences.Okay. C w D is,

(05:26):
as I said earlier, is causedby a misfolded protein. It's not an
organism, it's just a protein.Uh. But EHD is a series of
strains of viruses that are transmitted bymidges or what most people in the South
especially called matsu. Those gnats livein the mud. The maggots live in

(05:48):
the mud next to ponds, andin the dry part of the year,
is the ponds and creeks are dryingup, the mud is exposed, and
what happens is a deer that isalready been infected with this virus. I'll
talk about what the symptoms are ina minute, but goes and because one
of those symptoms. This fever goesthrough the water and the gnats feed on

(06:11):
their stomach area and then feed onhealthy deer and it's transmitted. So when
you concentrate deer in a place where, like you know, where water's liberty,
you increase the probability that you're goingto not only have the disease,
but have a pretty good sized killfrom it. Now, the most interesting

(06:33):
thing I heard biologists not too longago, somebody asked him, why don't
we worry as much about HD,which has been shown to kill perhaps millions
of dear cumulatum in not in anyone year, and we're not. Why
are we not worried about EHD andworried about CWD. Well, this biologist

(06:56):
said, well, CWD is notnatural and EHD is natural. Well,
I beg to differ. You know, the two the two strains that kill
white tales of e h D orstrange six and strange and both of those
have an anxioetic origin at Bangladesh inAustralia. So, uh, don't tell

(07:16):
me that that they're not natural,that CWD is natural and they're not.
And doc, when it comes tolooking at c w D, why do
we see so much diversity, andwhy we don't have a national understanding and
plan? Why is every state justso setting their ways and some states are

(07:42):
taking a lot more serious than others. Where did the break down politically or
financially or just in advocating an educationwhere what happened? Well, it's back
to that state's rights thing, andyou know the competition and then ego,
uh, there really isn't you knowthe people that argument with me and say

(08:07):
there is a national management plan,but if it is, we're going about
it the wrong way. But forsome reason other they they just continue doing
things in the same old way.And you know, one of the things
that I found, and this isvery critical of some of my professional colleagues,

(08:28):
but I've been astonished by how poorlyread they are. They talk to
each other on the phone a lot, but they don't really don't need a
lot. You know. That's it'simportant to be especially if you're representing the
people you're and you've got their trustin and their precious natural resources. You
think you would be fully prepared todeal with it. You know, a

(08:56):
gym let me in the city here, got bit. I'm I'm in a
wheelchair and I do a lot ofreading, and I do a lot of
writing, and it's anything to methat it appears to me that all know
more about they wds than the TexasParks and Wildlife. Doesn't that that's not

(09:18):
right, That's not the way it'ssupposed to be. No, well,
it's supposed to be up on whatthey're doing with two Yearl's point about that.
I can give a perfect example backwhen, back when EHD type two
hit the landscape. It decimated alot of our areas here in Kentucky,

(09:41):
and I broke the story on myradio show about it and the agency.
He said, I didn't know whatI was talking about, that it was
nothing more that bluetongue, and thatit was not going to be a big
deal. Well, guess what whatwas first trading to me about it was
I by research, and I understoodthat EHD two was a whole different breed

(10:05):
of cats and regular bluetongue. Soit's just amazing how these students slipped through
the cracks. Jim, the samething happened to me in Wisconsin. Uh.
I was told in Wisconsin that theirdear did not have the HD,
and I said, well, youdon't have the HD net now. But

(10:28):
of course HD was first identified innorthern States. But what's funny is I
said, but it's coming. Wellit wasn't. Six months later and their
wildlife guy called me and said,we got the HD. We got dear
dying And I said, okay,what do we do that. We don't
want this to get out. It'llaffect it'll affect license sales. Well,

(10:52):
there you go, gentlemen. Igot to go to another break care of
This break is presented by Sambo Marine. We'll see them. They'll take great
care of you. And remember younever get soaked at SMI get straighter out
door. For those folks here arejust perhaps joining the programs. I'd like

(11:16):
to repeat you to repeat those tworeally salient and important questions to get to
the heart of the matter about theseconcerns about CWD. Would you do that
police? Sure CWD is a significantproblem if you can say yes to the
following two questions. One will itdecimate dear herds? Two? Can human

(11:39):
beings catch it? Answer to bothof those after twenty something years is not
no, and there's no data anywhereit runs contrary to what you said.
Correct, absolutely correct, not abit there's a day they the critics jumped

(12:01):
on us on an unpublished study upin Canada about where they infected some a
cock monkeys with that paper. Thatpaper has never been reviewed, it has
never been published, so I'm stillholding on that. But you know,
this is a sad thing to say. I've got some professional colleagues that I'm
convinced if a human being ever workedto contact contract CWD, they would throw

(12:26):
a cocktail party. It would bethat James. I don't know a few
of him, and I agree withyou. Yeah, it's a shop James.
But you know Ethan. You knowuh mad cow disease okay, which
gave rise to variant crusfol yokless disease, and some humans called it here us.

(12:48):
It's spent forty years and two hundredand thirty one people in the entire
Earth have contracted variant crutch for yakutsdisease. Now, every life is precious,
but just think of the billions andbillions of pounds of venicine and it
turns out that that two hundred andthirty one people are genetically prone to developing

(13:11):
a disease. So I checked duringthe same time, twelve hundred people died
in England by falling in the bathtub. Oh well, the thing about this
also, I need to ask yourquestions. Both of you are very knowledgeable

(13:33):
about this. Not all deer aresusceptible to c w D. Is that
correct? Absolutely correct? There isgenetic resistance. I said that way back
there, without even knowing it.I said that in two thousand and two.
I said, I have profound faithin the white tail deer to work
this out genetically, because there's there'ssuch a thing as natural selection, and

(13:56):
it looks like it's it is avery fairly rare gene, but it's uh,
it's increasing and provide resistance. Hey, James had add I might add
that the gear populations have certain gearthat are genotyped receptible, susceptible to c

(14:24):
w D and scrapy. Yeah,but you got to think about this garner
herbs where twenty two are taken byhunters and other accidents and other viruses and
diseases all through the year. Yougot to think about the fact that a
dearer herb turns over. What wecall a turnover means it's replaced by recruits

(14:50):
from ponds, and the whole populationturns over about ever five years. So
this is a factory is definitely aa control measure for c D. Yeah,
actually a horse is three and ahalf years. And look, you
said, you said something I wasgiven Hey, I was I was giving

(15:11):
nobody a break. You know,you said something very struck me back in
two thousand and two, you said, why heck if by the time a
deer can become clinical with CWD,it's been dead and eating by something for
two years. Well, you're absolutelyright, Yeah, you're absolutely right.

(15:33):
Well, elaborate on that point,because it does have a very long stage
of progression compared to to EHD.For example, let folks know how that
rolls out. Yeah, EHD isas rapid as a rapid killer. You

(15:54):
know, twenty four or forty eighthours we're talking about. If it's the
right strain of they're dead. Butthere's a reason why they call it chronic
wastion disease is that it may takeyears for an animal to even become clinical.
Now, there's an important distinction andwe need to make here. There's
a huge difference between testing positive forpreon proteins and having the disease. That

(16:19):
there's a big difference that does notmean that you that the deer has the
disease. It means that is itis carrying or has in its body preon
proteins. That's very important. Now, the other reason why I never feared
the first question, that their herdswould not be affected by it. If

(16:41):
you give it, let's be generous, let's give it a three year incubation
period. How many fawns ad havein those three years? Yeah, got
to replace yourself. And so it'sgoing to be very difficult or a disease

(17:03):
that has a latency of years toaffect affect the population. And as I
said earlier, there's not been asingle period viewed study that has shown that
testing positive for CWD reduces either youryour birthrate or your recruitment. So there's
the point. Well, and tothat point, and I'm not meaning to

(17:29):
belabor it, but lord knows,we've seen what's happened in the other states.
Can you kind of give a rundownon on your history? For example,
how how did Wisconsin bounce back aftertheir decrolean measures? How to you
know, have the other states thathave identified it and or done these kills

(17:52):
all these crazy things. What hasbeen the result it looks to me like,
go ahead, go ahead. Wisconsin'slong more than anybody. Well,
yeah, Wisconsin is the best badexample I can think of it. And
bless their hearts. They're good people, don't get me wrong. That was
those guys are some of the besttrained while I bilgists in the world in

(18:14):
my opinion. Uh, they andI and they bought into the scare just
like everybody else, and they justhappened to be the first ones. So
they're taking a beating over it.But you know, after all that attempt
to eradicate the disease by killing allthose you know, one hundred and seventy
or more than one hundred and seventythousand years. Uh, what what we

(18:34):
found in those in those four initialsso called zone areas, excuse me,
is the deer populations of increase.They've killed older increase. Uh Uh.
What's ironic in there that agency isyou got one division of the agency that
is begging hunters to kill more deer, and another division of that agency predicting

(18:59):
that they're going to go extinct.I might return prediction of extinction years later.
They're not all right, very verygood folks. You gotta go to
the break care of the news breakfast, said boys n Glean. They're at
eleven four hundred Westbrook Road. Juststart to the cheap statter, go see
you, but take great care ofyour all your body bets and remember you

(19:22):
never get soap at after back Andy, we're back with artor James crawling hard

(19:51):
door. Uh guys, I wantto change gears here because it's a bit
of a thousand pounds gorilla in theroom here in Kentucky, for example,
I want to return to Scott's questionabout feeding into our baiting for deer.

(20:11):
I know there's a lot of folksthat have strong opinions about that, and
I want to start out with I'dlike you to address the importance of minerals
for deer and the reason I'm bringingthis up in the counties in Kentucky that
are in our CWD zone. Atthe present time, there is no CWD

(20:34):
discovered there, but they have restrictedall feeding and our minerals in those zones.
Now, I'm just a hunter,okay, but I do practice a
lot of wildlife management and for morethan forty years now, and mineral to

(20:56):
me is vitally important to deer tokeep them healthy and it will seem counterintuitive
to me that if you remove supplementalfeeding and our mineral from deer in these
areas, you may be doing moreharm than good. What are your aws
opinions about that? Well, yeah, what I said earlier is as part

(21:21):
first of all, let's differentiate betweenfeeding and baiting. When we talk about
feeding, or we should. Whenwe're talking about feeding, we're talking about
about supplemental feeding as part of asound management program that produces healthier deer.
Baiting has only one purpose, andthat is to bring deer to the gun

(21:44):
or boat as pure and simple.Now, do not to insult anybody out
there that the numerous hunters that arelistening to this, but times have changed,
the lifestyles have changed. You know, we don't have all these rural
guys and gals out there hunting usingsuperb hunting skills that were passed down from

(22:10):
generations. The average hunter today issetting at a desk somewhere and pushes back
from his desk and announces he's gonnago hunt deer on open a day.
Well, let's find a dandy.But getting a deer killed is another matter
altogether. The goal here, especiallyin those zones, is to remove deer

(22:36):
what allows us to achieve those goals? When you take my experiences Ben and
in other states, my experience hasbeen that when you remove baiting, whether
you like it or not, andI don't. I'm not a I don't
hung over bait, but I don'thave anything against it. But when you
remove baity, the killed goes down, and now you're defeating the very purpose

(23:00):
that you did these things. Thenthe next thing I'll say is, again
we go back to all of thisis based on Frankenstein experiments or possibilities and
probabilities to probabilities, and there's stillhasn't been a good or any peer reviewed
study that it was a solid linkshowing U whether feeding or baiting for that

(23:26):
matter, spreads CWD. It's justit hasn't been. It's just it's just
possible. May can those words showup again? So, uh, you're
it's a catch twenty two? Youknow. Would I like the world where
it wasn't necessary? Yeah, Iwould love that. But I'm a professional

(23:49):
and I have skills, and Ican't expect the average hunter to be Daniel
Boone. I just can't do that. And so whatever it takes for them
to have a good time to havea great experience at harvest, a nice
deer and maybe a beautiful rack andgreat certainly a great a great store of
venison. I'm for it, hey, Jim, Yes, sir, Jim,

(24:15):
yes, sir. I don't thinkthere's any state in the nation that
has more deer feeders, both bothprotein and corn on the ranches than Texas.
I think Texas leads all of them, but Texas also leads the nation
and deer killed eight hundred thousand,nine hundred thousand a year, and we

(24:40):
feed I don't know, James,it's all a guest. We feed somewhere
between ten million and twenty million poundsof corn to deer every year in Texas,
and yet we have healthy deer,no big problem with CWN any more.
Deer killed on Iken through Texas andis then CWD kills in a year,

(25:03):
so we've got a good thing going. But we do have a lot
of feters. Well. The truthof the matter is the average hunter it
is only able to hunt on weekends. A lot of them only have access
to small properties, and you removetheir ability to feed into or bait however

(25:23):
you want to describe it. Toyour point, doctor harvest to drop dramatically,
and then you're gonna have all hellraised by Farm Bureau and all the
other folks that see the need fora balanced turn. I mean, I'll
give you another example of something.And this really bothers me. It does.

(25:44):
I was opposed to it, andI stay opposed to it. Here
we can't even feed wildlife on ourown properties due to a regulation that was
enacted from March all the way throughAugust. First, That to me is

(26:04):
not good science. I'm sorry thatthat plastic the face of good wildlife management.
Yeah, yeah, that's a that'sthat's interesting, you know. You
know, and uh, you alsobrought up minerals. Uh, we're we're
seeing. I made it to commentearly on about I've done quite a bit

(26:26):
of deer de treason work, anduh, deer are copper hogs. Copper
and zinc are important minerals for deer, and and I said that that I
felt like they were that was possiblytied to CWD, to just two three
on deformities. And now we're there'sthere's starting to be science coming in and

(26:51):
saying, you know, the copperand zinc maybe maybe very important elements involved
in this CWD thing, So youknow, I'm not I've never been one
for going out there and putting outsalt. You know, salt has never
grown an antler in the history ofwhite tailed deer. But balance, a
balanced mineral is a different story outthere. And they're not just comperhensinc.

(27:15):
But there's some other ones like selenium, so for magnesia, magnesium, and
manganese, those are all very veryimportant, so I think they can be
legitimate. I would like to seestates tied to allowing their use to active
demonstration, active involvement in managing theirdeer, and the landowners are more than

(27:36):
willing to do that. Everywhere there'sa d MAP or Deer Manage and Assistance
program that people flocked to it.So people are very interested in doing what's
right for their deer there. Theycare about these animals absolutely, and that's
what hurt by heart was. Iknow so many people in the state that

(27:56):
engage in that management. Leads meto another point. I'd like y'all to
address food plots versus supplemental feeding ina lot of these a maazinges. I've
seen a lot of biologists who quitefrankly don't have the experience of YouTube gentlemen
trying to say that feeding is detrimentalto wildlife. And then they said,

(28:19):
but but food plots are okay.What say you go ahead, James,
there's the guy who invented the workfood plot and has done more research and
food blots than anybody on the faceof the earth. I can say that
those same people that say food plotsare okay and feeding is not are the

(28:42):
same people that are out there sellingseed. You know, just just to
be honest about that, I couldmake Their argument is that food plots spread
the deer out Well, I canmake the argument, yes, you're absolutely
right and on that, on thatif you do it right, put the

(29:03):
right number out of plots out there. But so do feeders. You can
do the same thing. And alsothe argument was that feeding they don't feed
close to the ground or that willso that will guarantee you that C of
D and I be transmitted. Uhexcuse me. I seed a beat all
the way to the ground. Andnot only that, but the deer or

(29:25):
patch grazers, they they have astrategy where they go into a food plot
and they hit a particular part ofit. And unless they just don't have
anything else to eat, they'll keepcoming back, and they actually prune those
plants in a way that encourages theirgrowth. So they're coming back to the
same area as over and over andover again. It's and that's that's silly.

(29:48):
It's all silly. Well back tothis uh abolition, if you will,
of minerals and c WD zones.I'm on record to say, and
look, if that's really going tocause an outbreak of the preon and the
deer herd, let's talk about thething that deer do that is irrefutable.

(30:12):
Probably there's more salivatrated, more urinefeasts around licking branches in every white tailed
deer unit. Thanks you. Whyso what are you accomplishing when you say,
what are they gonna do? Startgoing around and cutting off the liquing
branches for God's sake. Yeah,that's that's a very value. And mutual

(30:37):
grimming and uh paar grimming that thathappens all the time. Uh. You
know, bucks like to in placeswhere they're actually are is buckets structor.
You know, an older buck willtravel around with the younger bucket. They
spend a lot of time licking oneach other, you know, And I
mean there's there's a million ways thatcan be picked up, but once again,

(31:02):
we've we've yet to determine what isn'teffective those we don't even know that.
Okay, damn, I got him. Yes, okay, Jim Oh,
it all goes back to James's twoquestions. Yes, sir, I
totally agree. We got to doa short break here. Coming back from

(31:22):
break, we're going to talk tothese two gentlemen about some other in depth
things that are going on in thewildlife community about c w D. This
break is presented by Moss the HealthProperty's Heart Realty m op A h A
r T Realty dot Com. Right, God, I know you've got a

(31:45):
couple of questions here for the gentlemenfar away. Yeah, where where do
we stand as far as concerns movingforward with c w D with not only
the agencies, but just basically howthe public is going to accept CWD being

(32:05):
on the landscaped and talked about more. And where is the best place for
not just hunters but but agencies toturn to to to get information and training.
Well, first of all, Iwant I want to we've talked a
lot about, we've downplayed a lotabout CWD, and I want to make

(32:29):
sure everybody understands the CFD is adear disease. Uh, it's the significance
of it. Questioning if we ifwe prioritize our rate the mortality factors.
Uh, white tail deer CD goesway down. Horace talked about about Texas

(32:52):
and we feed you know, millionsof pounds of corn every year to deer
and other feeds too as well.I'm not point here's a good place for
me to point out. Do youknow how many white tail deer we can
document died in the last twelve yearsfrom CWD in Texas? Gotta be zero,

(33:15):
James, we think one. Haveyou sound about that mule deer in
El Pastel, No, there's there'ssupposedly a new one. They're saying they
have one white tail that died upin the Panhal but I haven't seen the
Yeah, but I'd like to seethat. Yeah, go ahead. Not
more than one and no more thanabout six mule deer. So we haven't

(33:37):
had we haven't had that much mortalityout of five five million plus deer.
But significant disease and that it isa political disease and it it is affecting,
Uh people's perceptions of hunting, people'sperceptions of venison, you know,

(34:00):
whether they want to participate in thisgreat recreational enterprise we call we call deer
honey. So that makes it significantand that's that's done. You might we
might include land values. Oh gosh, yeah, the excellent point a horse.
We have now discovered in Texas thatland values are where where a CWD

(34:22):
deer has been found or next tous CWD positive deer. The prices the
land values are gone way down.We've seen that before. We have we're
one of the only two states thathas anthrax, and we have a certain
area is where anthrax is common andthose those ratchets there, they can hardly

(34:45):
sell their land. So it's havinga huge impact on rural land values.
And if you do get a CWD, which every state is going to get
CWD Center or later in Kentucky,it's going to affect your land prices well.
And that's unfortunate because to your point, it doesn't through any of the

(35:05):
data, seem to really be detrimentala big way to the dear herd or
people's desire in or safety of eatingthe meat. Exactly. You gotta go,
you gotta go back to the twoquestions, Jim, Well, the
two questions are the key questions.Yep, it's exactly right. Well,

(35:34):
society today, perception is everything andnot reality. Unfortunately we've seen that.
Yeah. Well, and that's that'swas the driving force for me behind during
this program tonight, because I don'tknow two other individuals nationwide with y'all's experience
and expertise, and experience really mattersin these kind of situations. So I

(36:00):
can't tell you how much I appreciateyou all coming home with us. And
hopefully we've dispelled a lot of thesepoints of misinformation that are out there in
a lot of these myths, becausethis program, I must say, has
done an excellent job of putting itout the facts about CWD. So doctor,

(36:24):
if you want, we're almost twoquestions out again. What clothes are
that? All right? And bythe way, you're a man of ethics
and courage to have a show likethis. But good music, good good
music too. Yeah, Well,thank you, gentlemen, you've humbled me.

(36:45):
CWD is a significant problem. Ifyou can say yes or the following
two questions, will it devastate dearherds? And can human beings catch it?
The answer to both his No,so, folks, the meat safety,
eat the dear herds. They're notgonna be decimated by it. There's
no data on it. And again, gentlemen, thank you so much for

(37:06):
your conservation ethic, for your life'swork regarding the management of white pill.
I hope to have you on theprogram again down the road. Sometimes enjoyed
it, thank you, thank you, yes, sir, thank you so
much. All right, folks,that's a rap. I hope you enjoyed

(37:27):
this. I found it to bevery informative myself. God bless everybody.