August 5, 2025 • 26 mins
Maria chats with Born Free USA's Devan Schowe about the organization and all they do to prevent humans from exploiting wild-animals.
In 1966, Virginia McKenna and Bill Travers starred in the classic wildlife film Born Free.
In 1984, they launched the charity Zoo Check which evolved into Born Free; in 2002, Born Free USA was launched in the states!
Their campaigns include the fur trade, trapping, animals in captivity, the Endangered Species Act,
and so much more!! See all they do BORNFREEUSA.ORG.
In 1966, Virginia McKenna and Bill Travers starred in the classic wildlife film Born Free.
In 1984, they launched the charity Zoo Check which evolved into Born Free; in 2002, Born Free USA was launched in the states!
Their campaigns include the fur trade, trapping, animals in captivity, the Endangered Species Act,
and so much more!! See all they do BORNFREEUSA.ORG.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's Maria's MUDs and Stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
What a great idea on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Maria's Mutts and Stuff. And with me today
is Devin Showey from Born Free USA. So, Devin, thank
you for taking the time to talk about Born Free USA.
So let's start. What is tell us all about? How
did Born Free USA begin?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Yeah, so Born Free USA has a sister organization that
started first in the UK. So Born Free Foundation was
started in I believe the late sixties early seventies in
the UK, and they started after the movie featuring Elsa
(00:52):
the lion was made, the movie called Born Free Sure.
So after that movie, the actors in the movie realized
they were concerned about the wild life that was depicted,
the lioness that was rescued Elsa, and they wanted to
(01:14):
try to protect wild animals from entering captivity and entering
things like the pet trade and entering zoos after that experience,
And so that's when Born Free Foundation was founded over
in the UK at that time. And then fast forward
a few decades later, Born Free USA was then founded
in the early two thousands in North America. And so
(01:37):
that's who I work with directly, and we have a
lot of the same mission as Born Free Foundation, which
is protecting wild animals and protecting them from exploitation in
captivity for human entertainment and other purposes. And so we
do that, but just in the United States. And yeah,
(01:57):
that's basically how everything started.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
I mean I had a feeling and then I also
read about it, and I was like wow, because I
know there are people listening who are probably young that
they don't know about the movie Born Free, But of
course there are other ones like me that of course
I remember that movie. You know, it's I mean, it's
a classic movie and I'm sure it's still available. So
if you're listening right now you never saw the movie
(02:20):
Born Free, and I know you're listening to Marias Muss
and stuff because you are an animal lover, you must
see the movie Born Free, because yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
It's a must watch. Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
So your organization, I feel like it does so many,
so many different things with animals to protect animals from,
like the fur trade or the endangered species conservation. Is
there any part of the organization that is bigger than
(02:51):
the other, because I just feel like there's so much
You cover a lot of ground.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Yeah, we do I think in terms of all of
our different campaigns, I think one that we do produce
a lot of resources, like reports for is our wild
Animals in Captivity campaign, just because that covers like a
broader range of topics. So within that we cover the
(03:17):
illegal pet trade, we cover wildlife trafficking both legal and illegal,
and any other situation where wild animals are kept in
traumatic or exploitative environments. Sure, so that one, just because
it's kind of more all encompassing, I think that campaign
(03:37):
probably has the most attention and the most resources dedicated
to it. But yeah, I work very closely within that campaign,
and then I also work closely with the trapping and
fur trade campaigns as well. So yeah, it's we do cover.
We cast a very wide net, but of course everything
(03:59):
is related in terms of, yes, viewing things through a
lens of compassionate conservation, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, Yeah, I mean I feel like with a fur
trade and I mean, am I being like delusional, Like
I feel like it's gotten better that people are more
aware and maybe aren't wearing furs like back in the
fifties and the sixties and seventies, or am I just
(04:28):
being delusional?
Speaker 2 (04:29):
I think there's a decline that's definitely happening as far
as both the supply and demand go. There was actually
a recent report released by the USDA literally within the
last few days that said the newest numbers from twenty
twenty five are reflecting an eighty percent decline in the
supply and demand of the fur trade worldwide. Wow, so
(04:52):
that's pretty huge. The problem is it's still legal in
a lot of parts of the world, especially in the
un US. It has not yet been banned. There is
legislation that we're actively campaigning for to get passed, which
is called the Mink Virus Act, which would ban for
production in the United States, and it would also have
(05:15):
a program that would help pay out for farmers as
they transition out of the industry if that were to
ever become banned. Sure, so that legislation is really great
and we would love to see it get more traction
and eventually get passed into law. But until that happens, unfortunately, Yeah,
we do still see people wearing fur like celebrities. I
(05:35):
will still see wearing real fur, which is really unfortunate. Yeah,
you know, because they have such big following. Sure, we'll
want to emulate them. And everything, So I think, unfortunately,
it can still be used as sort of like a
status symbol and a symbol of wealth. So those are
the things that we're really trying to get after and
(05:56):
ban in terms of legislation, so that that's just not
an option anymore. So Luckily, after I mean unfortunately, after
the COVID nineteen pandemic and after that brought a lot
of attention to how animals and people can pass certain
viruses between each other and how that could lead to
a lot more human and animal deaths. Like the issue
(06:18):
of COVID nineteen was really big on for farms in
Europe and also within the United States, So I think
that also helps bring more attention to how bad for
farming is as a practice, just for in terms of
public health and safety for humans. Sure, and what is
focused on less unfortunately is the welfare and well being
(06:40):
of the animals involved. So we're kind of trying to
help promote both views and use that to help you
raise the importance of getting this legislation passed.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Sure, So well, for someone who's listening right now, they
know the basic thing is don't ever buy a fur coat, right,
But what else can somebody do who wants to help
the law get passed or get get it banned.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, the most influential thing anybody can do today is
really reach out to your local representative, your legislator within
your state and just email them, call them. However, you
can contact them, write them and tell them that you
want them to support the Mink Virus Act. That would
really be the best possible thing. And then the other
thing that's also easy is just to read and share
(07:34):
our resources that we've produced on the fur trade and
why it's harmful for the animals and people. Sure, So
we do have a report that we released last year
which focused a lot on that public health and safety
risk that for farming does posed to humans in addition
to other things. So we do have that report as
well that the more that gets shared and distributed, the
(07:56):
more it'll help bring us closer to passing legislation that
will ban this practice.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
I mean, knowledge is power, and for someone who's listening,
they can go to your site Bornfreusa dot org and
find out more.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Yes, yes, born Freeusa dot org.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
So yeah, I mean it's still it's still kind of
mind boggling to me that after all these years, I mean,
we're like almost going to be in twenty twenty six.
You know, there's no need for someone. It's not like
we're cavemen. You know that we don't have homes or
or you know, fabrics that are made synthetically or whatever,
(08:34):
you know, to keep warm. It's not like we're cavemen
and it's back in the you know, the ice age
or something.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
I mean, it just doesn't make sense to me.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
And yeah, I just you know, like when I see
someone with a fur coat, and even if it's a celebrity,
and I'm like, why, you know, like you don't look
cool at all, right, I know.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
And I think the unfortunate part is just the lack
of awareness is really what's enabling people to continue buying
real fur. I think people just honestly don't realize how
cruel it is. Sure because I don't think the average
person necessarily thinks about how many animals it takes to
make a single fur coat. So for a mink coat,
(09:13):
for example, that can take anywhere from fifty to sixty
individual minks to kill and yeah skin and use their
fur to make one single fur coat. Fifty to sixty minks.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
That's awesol.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
That's awful and right, and they're raised just to become coats,
which is not a necessary thing. Yeah, which is just
a horrible thing exactly.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
It's just horrible. Yeah, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
The other lack of awareness that we find too is
just the fur industry tries to promote themselves as sort
of like an eco friendly green option because they're like, well,
these are natural resources, they're animals, there's you know, like
a low carbon footprint or whatever. But all of these
things are actually live sure, because we know from research
(09:58):
that fur farming is actually a lot more environmentally harmful,
especially to water sources, especially to the surrounding environment the
native animals there, just because fur farming requires a lot
of chemicals to be used, like permeldehyde and certain preservatives
that are really toxic to a surrounding environment. And then
(10:19):
when there's water runoff from these facilities and it gets
into the surrounding ecosystem, it can cause a lot of problems.
It can even harm human health if people live close
enough to these facilities. And for farming also, it takes
a lot more water and it takes a lot more resources,
you know, to feed the animals and everything to house
them than alternative textiles do, so things like polyester have
(10:44):
a way smaller carbon footprint than real fur does for
those reasons.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Right, And people if they have to wear a fur
or for whatever reason, if they think it's a status symbol,
they can wear polyester. Yeah, fifty minks are not dying
for you. I mean, it's just I don't know, it's
just it's sometimes it's still hard for me to wrap
my head around it because I just feel like people
are smarter now or just more aware, but they're not.
I mean they are, but not to the point where
(11:10):
we want them to be exactly.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Yeah, And I think that's where people struggle too, because
they're like, well, if it's legal and it's being freely sold,
it can't be bad, right, But I mean, right, that's
the whole point of the legislative process is just you know,
try to rectify these things. So just because it's legal
at this point in time, especially relating to animals, that
does not necessarily mean that it's an okay.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Thing to do, right, No, absolutely, absolutely, you know, And
it's the whole thing. Knowledge is power. So now people
are learning, so hopefully, you know, will it will get better.
It's gotten better, you know, but it needs to get
even more even more better if that and that's not correct,
but you know what I mean, it just needs to
(11:56):
get better than what it is. So you were talking about,
you know, the wildlife and captivity and talking about COVID,
and it just brought to mind. You know, during COVID,
everybody was watching the Tiger King with.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
All of his tigers and all of that.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Do you feel like that that did that show raise
awareness for the different you know, like zoos like that
that aren't legal or you know, fair around the country
Like did that show?
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Did that show do you think did more good than harm?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
I think ultimately in the end, yes, just because it
was one of the key things that helped generate more
public support for the captive sorry, the big Cat Public
Safe the Act, which is the legislation that was eventually
passed a couple of years ago that bans private ownership
of all big cat species in the US. So I'm
(12:51):
not sure without the show if it would have gotten
passed at that point in time, right, just because it
raised the popular already of discussing those situations. But I
don't think that the show itself really did the animals justice.
(13:14):
I think that the show missed an opportunity to focus
on the animal stories and really highlight their welfare issues
and how cruel it was to keep them in those conditions,
and how you know, keeping those animals at those facilities
does nothing for those species in the wild. If anything,
it harms them even more because people want to go
(13:36):
out and buy them, you know, after seeing them at
those places before that law was passed. So I think
it did a bit of a disservice to the animals
in that regard.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
On the human drama. Yeah, because it was focused.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Yes, and ultimately I think it did achieve what we wanted.
So I'm glad that it came out when it did
and it led to the passage of that legislation. But yeah,
I just I wish I wish it took the animals
a little bit more seriously.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Yeah, I know what you mean, because we really didn't
know much about the animals. We didn't learn really it was.
It was very much focused on him and his life
and what he was going through and doing.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Yeah, I mean I think the timing of it probably
the fact that it came out at the beginning of COVID,
so people were home and had to watch it in
a sense, you know, because what else were you doing?
So but yeah, I agree, I wish we did know more.
But the fact that it did get the Act passed
after that so baby steps in that sense exactly.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Yeah, And I will say, like getting legislation like that
passed typically takes a very long time. Like before Tiger
King came out, Born Free and other animal agencies had
already been campaigning to get the Big Cat Public Safety
Act passed since twenty or twenty eleven, I believe, so
it had already been like ten years in the works
(15:04):
of actively campaigning, trying to raise awareness about this issue,
legislation going through different congressional sessions, so it was a
very long time coming. Yeah, and I'm hopeful that I'm
not sure if you saw it, but the series Chimp
Crazy I Do that was released yes, earlier this year.
(15:27):
We had a similar hope for that show in that
it would garner a similar amount of attention for the
Captive Primate Safety Act, which is very similar legislation to
the Big Hat Public Safety Act. It would basically outlaw
the ownership of any primate species in the US. So
(15:48):
we are still hopeful that that will have a successful
outcome and that it will get passed eventually, but hopefully
it won't take as long as ten years.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Right right, Yeah?
Speaker 1 (16:02):
No, I mean yeah, it's it's like mixed feelings because
to watch those shows, it's just so outrageous and so upsetting.
But if it helps raise awareness and if it makes
instead of it taking ten years, it takes five years,
then then that's okay, right, I mean, like that's the
positive out that would be huge, yeah, because I mean
(16:24):
that was just as bast I think that Actually I
thought Chim Crazy I think was worse than Tiger King.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
I don't know, I just yeah, I mean not.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
To compare them, but they would just you know, they're
just like bad accidents, but they're bad accidents that I
think people need to see because then these acts get
passed and it makes people realize like, Okay, this is
like real, this is not stuff, This is not like
a Hollywood movie, Like these animals are going through this,
so yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
They're real. Animals live like I think a lot. It's
shocking to some people that in their state they were
not aware that they could legally own animals like that,
right without even knowing about it. Like, I think that
was also a big push behind this legislation is just
the safety aspect. Again, it's just you you need to
(17:15):
have these animals in a secure place, which is really
difficult to do for a dangerous wild animal in a
backyard or in a home, right or not built for that.
And of course the wild animals are not they are
not evolved to live in such close proximity to humans
in those areas. So yeah, I think it was a
(17:36):
wake up call for a lot of people, just the
fact that these dangerous animals could be living right next
door to them and they have no idea you know,
until they escape, until they escape and they kill someone,
or they attack someone or you know, the list goes on.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Right, No, you're right, You're right, I mean, yeah, yeah,
because and then it always makes me crazy because it's
you know, like if a kid is visiting a zoo
and climbs over and doesn't listen and you know, then
gets attacked.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
It's like it's a wild animal. What do you think
it's going to do?
Speaker 1 (18:04):
And you know, not that the kid deserves to die,
but the animal doesn't deserve to die, you know, Yeah,
I mean.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
It's being Yeah, it's an animal point.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Yeah, that stuff always makes me crazy because I feel
like it's a wild animal, you're going you know, you're
in a if it's in a zoo, and you decide.
I mean, it happens often, but when it does happen,
it really I find it just to be outrageous for sure.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Yeah, and I think it happens more often than a
lot of people realize. Like, we keep an Exotic Animals
Incidents database on our website and we keep track of
incidents like that, dangerous incidents that involve wild animals and humans.
So we do keep track of escapes and attacks, and
quite a few of them do occur at zoos because
I mean, like humans are not perfect. We make mistakes
(18:50):
all the time. Sure, we forget to close the door,
you forget to put a lock on an enclosure. Sure,
and of course it's not the animal's faults, and they
find their way out, or of course someone finds their
way in. It's actually really not that difficult to like
get into some of these zoo enclosures, Like if you
ever look at how they're set up, it's really not difficult.
Like to imagine, you know, someone if they really wanted to,
(19:13):
like they could probably just hop in you know what
I mean a lot of these enclosures, so that's problematic.
And the other really important piece of that is when
these animals do escape and they're at large, a lot
of the time people don't understand that the solution because
human safety will be prioritized every time, you know, compared
(19:37):
to the animal safety. A lot of these incidents end
with the animals being shot dead because you can't tranquilize them.
That can take too long, right, and then something happens
before the drug starts to kick in. Tranquilizing is also
really unpredictable, like if you don't know the animals, wait,
the animal's history, like, all sorts of things can go
(19:58):
wrong there. So if they're not able to safely contain
these animals before they pose a major risk, like they
will just shoot them. And that's a horrible thing because
you know, the public safety officers that are responding to
these incidents don't want to do that. They're not trained
to handle wild animals, right, that's really part of their
everyday job, right, so they're put in a dangerous situation.
(20:20):
They don't want to do this, and on top of that,
you know, it just makes it just makes it more
traumatizing for everybody and every.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Bold of course, and then ultimately the poor animal loses
its life when it was just being you know, true
to itself. It's a wild animal, you know, which it's
not setting out to hurt people or kill people. But
it's a wild animal, so and you know, and ultimately, yeah,
it winds up being killed and you know, which is awful.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
So yeah, I mean again, I think everything really many
times just goes to knowledge's power.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
That's why I love talking with you, because you are
so full of knowledge, and you know, it's so helpful
for people to know about these things. Like you said,
sometimes people don't even realize with these illegal zoos or
whatever that they're in their neighborhood, which what you know,
that's amazing that stuff still happens today, but it does.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
It does.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Like I love the fact on your website that your
hashtag is keep wildlife in the wild, which is perfect. Yeah, yeah, no,
that's perfect, yeah, perfect, Ye, they belong.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
No, it's true like the other it's the other lack
of awareness piece, which is just people don't necessarily understand
the difference between domesticated and wild animals. A lot of
the times. So you know, domesticated animals like cats and
dogs are they've co evolved with us for such a
long time that they thrive living with us, right, Wild animals,
(21:45):
I mean, they are hardwired to be out in the
wild in these complex environments, living with their own species.
So it's just, uh, it's it's that's their whole design
is to be unpredictable. That's how they adapt, you know.
So even if a zeo says, oh, like we tamed them,
(22:05):
they're trained, they're fine, they're safe, that is never true
for an animal that is wild.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's it's a wild animal. So
it's being true to what it is, you know, Yeah,
which you're right.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
I don't think people always understand that. Yeah. Yeah. So
for the person who's listening right.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Now, I think the best thing they can do to
get involved and learn more because your your website so extensive,
has so much information. They should definitely go to bornfreusa
dot org. You are a nonprofit, correct, so you get
grants and donations.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
That's how you survive to do the work you do.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Yeah, So you know, if someone's listening right now and
they are are motivated to do something to help out
Bornfreusa dot org and you can definitely make a donation.
But there's so much to read and learn about, so
you really, I do Your website is excellent for all
of that information.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
So thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
Well, no, Devin, thank you.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
So. I mean we hit on stuff that you know
is very is very important, stuff that you know, how
people can get involved, Any words of wisdom to leave
for someone who's listening, or you know something something that
you've learned because you've been doing this for a long
time and you've been with the organization for a long time.
(23:27):
I'm sure over the years, the way you've seen things
change in a good way right makes you feel inspired
and to continue the next day. Is there is there
something that you would like to share about your experience
from all these years of doing what you do.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Yeah, I think the one thing I would want people
to know, especially those who have been fighting for a
good change for animals, because as anyone will tell you,
it's it can seem very daunting. It can seem like
an impossible challenge and a possible time ask at some points,
just because there's so many animals that needs to be helped,
(24:04):
and maybe won't be able to be helped in their
lifetime or our lifetime. But the one thing that kind
of keeps me going is just the fact that, like,
for me, even just helping save one animal from a
life of suffering is worth it. Like if I have
done that in my career up to now, that would
(24:24):
make everything completely worth it, Because that's the whole thing
about compassionate conservation. It's valuing individuals in the same way
that you value species wide conservation. Right. So I learned
that when I started with Born for USA as a
primate caregiver at our primate sanctuary in South Texas, and
(24:45):
I just it really helped solidify the fact that like,
just even rescuing one monkey from suffering being kept in
a basement and a dog create for their whole life
like fifteen years, right, And then they come to us
and they get to step outside for the first time,
they get to see the sun, they get to feel
the sunshine on their skin for the first time, like
they get to see other monkeys and interact with other
(25:07):
monkeys for the first time. That alone, to me is
worth it enough to keep me going and give me
the drive to want to continue to help Singular animals
so that eventually we can help larger group of animals
and prevent them from entering the horrible things that continue
on today, like the pet trade or the illegal wildlife trade.
(25:28):
So yeah, that would be my one message though.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
That's a great one with people.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
Yeah yeah, that's so perfect, no, I you know, and
you've saved more than one animal, so I mean I
get it, you know. And and for those who aren't
doing and involved with the wildlife like you are, I mean,
it's the same thing as we say with adopting a
cat or dog one at a time, it still makes
a big difference. It makes a huge difference, like don't
go to a pet store because it's coming from a
(25:56):
puppy mill, you know. I know people who still don't
know about puppy mills, like what. But yeah, yeah, so
I completely get it.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
And that's like just such a perfect, perfect little tidbit
to leave everyone with.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
So Devin Show, thank you so much, thank you, thank you,
And for my listeners, please go to Bornfreusa dot org.
And Devin, I just feel like you're doing so much
and I would love to talk to you again down
the road and so you can tell us more about.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
What you're doing, because you're really doing amazing work, and
thank you.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Absolutely yes, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
Okay, well, thanks
It's Maria's MUDs and Stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
What a great idea on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Maria's Mutts and Stuff. And with me today
is Devin Showey from Born Free USA. So, Devin, thank
you for taking the time to talk about Born Free USA.
So let's start. What is tell us all about? How
did Born Free USA begin?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Yeah, so Born Free USA has a sister organization that
started first in the UK. So Born Free Foundation was
started in I believe the late sixties early seventies in
the UK, and they started after the movie featuring Elsa
(00:52):
the lion was made, the movie called Born Free Sure.
So after that movie, the actors in the movie realized
they were concerned about the wild life that was depicted,
the lioness that was rescued Elsa, and they wanted to
(01:14):
try to protect wild animals from entering captivity and entering
things like the pet trade and entering zoos after that experience,
And so that's when Born Free Foundation was founded over
in the UK at that time. And then fast forward
a few decades later, Born Free USA was then founded
in the early two thousands in North America. And so
(01:37):
that's who I work with directly, and we have a
lot of the same mission as Born Free Foundation, which
is protecting wild animals and protecting them from exploitation in
captivity for human entertainment and other purposes. And so we
do that, but just in the United States. And yeah,
(01:57):
that's basically how everything started.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
I mean I had a feeling and then I also
read about it, and I was like wow, because I
know there are people listening who are probably young that
they don't know about the movie Born Free, But of
course there are other ones like me that of course
I remember that movie. You know, it's I mean, it's
a classic movie and I'm sure it's still available. So
if you're listening right now you never saw the movie
(02:20):
Born Free, and I know you're listening to Marias Muss
and stuff because you are an animal lover, you must
see the movie Born Free, because yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
It's a must watch. Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
So your organization, I feel like it does so many,
so many different things with animals to protect animals from,
like the fur trade or the endangered species conservation. Is
there any part of the organization that is bigger than
(02:51):
the other, because I just feel like there's so much
You cover a lot of ground.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Yeah, we do I think in terms of all of
our different campaigns, I think one that we do produce
a lot of resources, like reports for is our wild
Animals in Captivity campaign, just because that covers like a
broader range of topics. So within that we cover the
(03:17):
illegal pet trade, we cover wildlife trafficking both legal and illegal,
and any other situation where wild animals are kept in
traumatic or exploitative environments. Sure, so that one, just because
it's kind of more all encompassing, I think that campaign
(03:37):
probably has the most attention and the most resources dedicated
to it. But yeah, I work very closely within that campaign,
and then I also work closely with the trapping and
fur trade campaigns as well. So yeah, it's we do cover.
We cast a very wide net, but of course everything
(03:59):
is related in terms of, yes, viewing things through a
lens of compassionate conservation, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, Yeah, I mean I feel like with a fur
trade and I mean, am I being like delusional, Like
I feel like it's gotten better that people are more
aware and maybe aren't wearing furs like back in the
fifties and the sixties and seventies, or am I just
(04:28):
being delusional?
Speaker 2 (04:29):
I think there's a decline that's definitely happening as far
as both the supply and demand go. There was actually
a recent report released by the USDA literally within the
last few days that said the newest numbers from twenty
twenty five are reflecting an eighty percent decline in the
supply and demand of the fur trade worldwide. Wow, so
(04:52):
that's pretty huge. The problem is it's still legal in
a lot of parts of the world, especially in the
un US. It has not yet been banned. There is
legislation that we're actively campaigning for to get passed, which
is called the Mink Virus Act, which would ban for
production in the United States, and it would also have
(05:15):
a program that would help pay out for farmers as
they transition out of the industry if that were to
ever become banned. Sure, so that legislation is really great
and we would love to see it get more traction
and eventually get passed into law. But until that happens, unfortunately, Yeah,
we do still see people wearing fur like celebrities. I
(05:35):
will still see wearing real fur, which is really unfortunate. Yeah,
you know, because they have such big following. Sure, we'll
want to emulate them. And everything, So I think, unfortunately,
it can still be used as sort of like a
status symbol and a symbol of wealth. So those are
the things that we're really trying to get after and
(05:56):
ban in terms of legislation, so that that's just not
an option anymore. So Luckily, after I mean unfortunately, after
the COVID nineteen pandemic and after that brought a lot
of attention to how animals and people can pass certain
viruses between each other and how that could lead to
a lot more human and animal deaths. Like the issue
(06:18):
of COVID nineteen was really big on for farms in
Europe and also within the United States, So I think
that also helps bring more attention to how bad for
farming is as a practice, just for in terms of
public health and safety for humans. Sure, and what is
focused on less unfortunately is the welfare and well being
(06:40):
of the animals involved. So we're kind of trying to
help promote both views and use that to help you
raise the importance of getting this legislation passed.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Sure, So well, for someone who's listening right now, they
know the basic thing is don't ever buy a fur coat, right,
But what else can somebody do who wants to help
the law get passed or get get it banned.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, the most influential thing anybody can do today is
really reach out to your local representative, your legislator within
your state and just email them, call them. However, you
can contact them, write them and tell them that you
want them to support the Mink Virus Act. That would
really be the best possible thing. And then the other
thing that's also easy is just to read and share
(07:34):
our resources that we've produced on the fur trade and
why it's harmful for the animals and people. Sure, So
we do have a report that we released last year
which focused a lot on that public health and safety
risk that for farming does posed to humans in addition
to other things. So we do have that report as
well that the more that gets shared and distributed, the
(07:56):
more it'll help bring us closer to passing legislation that
will ban this practice.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
I mean, knowledge is power, and for someone who's listening,
they can go to your site Bornfreusa dot org and
find out more.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Yes, yes, born Freeusa dot org.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
So yeah, I mean it's still it's still kind of
mind boggling to me that after all these years, I mean,
we're like almost going to be in twenty twenty six.
You know, there's no need for someone. It's not like
we're cavemen. You know that we don't have homes or
or you know, fabrics that are made synthetically or whatever,
(08:34):
you know, to keep warm. It's not like we're cavemen
and it's back in the you know, the ice age
or something.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
I mean, it just doesn't make sense to me.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
And yeah, I just you know, like when I see
someone with a fur coat, and even if it's a celebrity,
and I'm like, why, you know, like you don't look
cool at all, right, I know.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
And I think the unfortunate part is just the lack
of awareness is really what's enabling people to continue buying
real fur. I think people just honestly don't realize how
cruel it is. Sure because I don't think the average
person necessarily thinks about how many animals it takes to
make a single fur coat. So for a mink coat,
(09:13):
for example, that can take anywhere from fifty to sixty
individual minks to kill and yeah skin and use their
fur to make one single fur coat. Fifty to sixty minks.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
That's awesol.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
That's awful and right, and they're raised just to become coats,
which is not a necessary thing. Yeah, which is just
a horrible thing exactly.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
It's just horrible. Yeah, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
The other lack of awareness that we find too is
just the fur industry tries to promote themselves as sort
of like an eco friendly green option because they're like, well,
these are natural resources, they're animals, there's you know, like
a low carbon footprint or whatever. But all of these
things are actually live sure, because we know from research
(09:58):
that fur farming is actually a lot more environmentally harmful,
especially to water sources, especially to the surrounding environment the
native animals there, just because fur farming requires a lot
of chemicals to be used, like permeldehyde and certain preservatives
that are really toxic to a surrounding environment. And then
(10:19):
when there's water runoff from these facilities and it gets
into the surrounding ecosystem, it can cause a lot of problems.
It can even harm human health if people live close
enough to these facilities. And for farming also, it takes
a lot more water and it takes a lot more resources,
you know, to feed the animals and everything to house
them than alternative textiles do, so things like polyester have
(10:44):
a way smaller carbon footprint than real fur does for
those reasons.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Right, And people if they have to wear a fur
or for whatever reason, if they think it's a status symbol,
they can wear polyester. Yeah, fifty minks are not dying
for you. I mean, it's just I don't know, it's
just it's sometimes it's still hard for me to wrap
my head around it because I just feel like people
are smarter now or just more aware, but they're not.
I mean they are, but not to the point where
(11:10):
we want them to be exactly.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Yeah, And I think that's where people struggle too, because
they're like, well, if it's legal and it's being freely sold,
it can't be bad, right, But I mean, right, that's
the whole point of the legislative process is just you know,
try to rectify these things. So just because it's legal
at this point in time, especially relating to animals, that
does not necessarily mean that it's an okay.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Thing to do, right, No, absolutely, absolutely, you know, And
it's the whole thing. Knowledge is power. So now people
are learning, so hopefully, you know, will it will get better.
It's gotten better, you know, but it needs to get
even more even more better if that and that's not correct,
but you know what I mean, it just needs to
(11:56):
get better than what it is. So you were talking about,
you know, the wildlife and captivity and talking about COVID,
and it just brought to mind. You know, during COVID,
everybody was watching the Tiger King with.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
All of his tigers and all of that.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Do you feel like that that did that show raise
awareness for the different you know, like zoos like that
that aren't legal or you know, fair around the country
Like did that show?
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Did that show do you think did more good than harm?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
I think ultimately in the end, yes, just because it
was one of the key things that helped generate more
public support for the captive sorry, the big Cat Public
Safe the Act, which is the legislation that was eventually
passed a couple of years ago that bans private ownership
of all big cat species in the US. So I'm
(12:51):
not sure without the show if it would have gotten
passed at that point in time, right, just because it
raised the popular already of discussing those situations. But I
don't think that the show itself really did the animals justice.
(13:14):
I think that the show missed an opportunity to focus
on the animal stories and really highlight their welfare issues
and how cruel it was to keep them in those conditions,
and how you know, keeping those animals at those facilities
does nothing for those species in the wild. If anything,
it harms them even more because people want to go
(13:36):
out and buy them, you know, after seeing them at
those places before that law was passed. So I think
it did a bit of a disservice to the animals
in that regard.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
On the human drama. Yeah, because it was focused.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Yes, and ultimately I think it did achieve what we wanted.
So I'm glad that it came out when it did
and it led to the passage of that legislation. But yeah,
I just I wish I wish it took the animals
a little bit more seriously.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Yeah, I know what you mean, because we really didn't
know much about the animals. We didn't learn really it was.
It was very much focused on him and his life
and what he was going through and doing.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Yeah, I mean I think the timing of it probably
the fact that it came out at the beginning of COVID,
so people were home and had to watch it in
a sense, you know, because what else were you doing?
So but yeah, I agree, I wish we did know more.
But the fact that it did get the Act passed
after that so baby steps in that sense exactly.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Yeah, And I will say, like getting legislation like that
passed typically takes a very long time. Like before Tiger
King came out, Born Free and other animal agencies had
already been campaigning to get the Big Cat Public Safety
Act passed since twenty or twenty eleven, I believe, so
it had already been like ten years in the works
(15:04):
of actively campaigning, trying to raise awareness about this issue,
legislation going through different congressional sessions, so it was a
very long time coming. Yeah, and I'm hopeful that I'm
not sure if you saw it, but the series Chimp
Crazy I Do that was released yes, earlier this year.
(15:27):
We had a similar hope for that show in that
it would garner a similar amount of attention for the
Captive Primate Safety Act, which is very similar legislation to
the Big Hat Public Safety Act. It would basically outlaw
the ownership of any primate species in the US. So
(15:48):
we are still hopeful that that will have a successful
outcome and that it will get passed eventually, but hopefully
it won't take as long as ten years.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Right right, Yeah?
Speaker 1 (16:02):
No, I mean yeah, it's it's like mixed feelings because
to watch those shows, it's just so outrageous and so upsetting.
But if it helps raise awareness and if it makes
instead of it taking ten years, it takes five years,
then then that's okay, right, I mean, like that's the
positive out that would be huge, yeah, because I mean
(16:24):
that was just as bast I think that Actually I
thought Chim Crazy I think was worse than Tiger King.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
I don't know, I just yeah, I mean not.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
To compare them, but they would just you know, they're
just like bad accidents, but they're bad accidents that I
think people need to see because then these acts get
passed and it makes people realize like, Okay, this is
like real, this is not stuff, This is not like
a Hollywood movie, Like these animals are going through this,
so yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
They're real. Animals live like I think a lot. It's
shocking to some people that in their state they were
not aware that they could legally own animals like that,
right without even knowing about it. Like, I think that
was also a big push behind this legislation is just
the safety aspect. Again, it's just you you need to
(17:15):
have these animals in a secure place, which is really
difficult to do for a dangerous wild animal in a
backyard or in a home, right or not built for that.
And of course the wild animals are not they are
not evolved to live in such close proximity to humans
in those areas. So yeah, I think it was a
(17:36):
wake up call for a lot of people, just the
fact that these dangerous animals could be living right next
door to them and they have no idea you know,
until they escape, until they escape and they kill someone,
or they attack someone or you know, the list goes on.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Right, No, you're right, You're right, I mean, yeah, yeah,
because and then it always makes me crazy because it's
you know, like if a kid is visiting a zoo
and climbs over and doesn't listen and you know, then
gets attacked.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
It's like it's a wild animal. What do you think
it's going to do?
Speaker 1 (18:04):
And you know, not that the kid deserves to die,
but the animal doesn't deserve to die, you know, Yeah,
I mean.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
It's being Yeah, it's an animal point.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Yeah, that stuff always makes me crazy because I feel
like it's a wild animal, you're going you know, you're
in a if it's in a zoo, and you decide.
I mean, it happens often, but when it does happen,
it really I find it just to be outrageous for sure.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Yeah, and I think it happens more often than a
lot of people realize. Like, we keep an Exotic Animals
Incidents database on our website and we keep track of
incidents like that, dangerous incidents that involve wild animals and humans.
So we do keep track of escapes and attacks, and
quite a few of them do occur at zoos because
I mean, like humans are not perfect. We make mistakes
(18:50):
all the time. Sure, we forget to close the door,
you forget to put a lock on an enclosure. Sure,
and of course it's not the animal's faults, and they
find their way out, or of course someone finds their
way in. It's actually really not that difficult to like
get into some of these zoo enclosures, Like if you
ever look at how they're set up, it's really not difficult.
Like to imagine, you know, someone if they really wanted to,
(19:13):
like they could probably just hop in you know what
I mean a lot of these enclosures, so that's problematic.
And the other really important piece of that is when
these animals do escape and they're at large, a lot
of the time people don't understand that the solution because
human safety will be prioritized every time, you know, compared
(19:37):
to the animal safety. A lot of these incidents end
with the animals being shot dead because you can't tranquilize them.
That can take too long, right, and then something happens
before the drug starts to kick in. Tranquilizing is also
really unpredictable, like if you don't know the animals, wait,
the animal's history, like, all sorts of things can go
(19:58):
wrong there. So if they're not able to safely contain
these animals before they pose a major risk, like they
will just shoot them. And that's a horrible thing because
you know, the public safety officers that are responding to
these incidents don't want to do that. They're not trained
to handle wild animals, right, that's really part of their
everyday job, right, so they're put in a dangerous situation.
(20:20):
They don't want to do this, and on top of that,
you know, it just makes it just makes it more
traumatizing for everybody and every.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Bold of course, and then ultimately the poor animal loses
its life when it was just being you know, true
to itself. It's a wild animal, you know, which it's
not setting out to hurt people or kill people. But
it's a wild animal, so and you know, and ultimately, yeah,
it winds up being killed and you know, which is awful.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
So yeah, I mean again, I think everything really many
times just goes to knowledge's power.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
That's why I love talking with you, because you are
so full of knowledge, and you know, it's so helpful
for people to know about these things. Like you said,
sometimes people don't even realize with these illegal zoos or
whatever that they're in their neighborhood, which what you know,
that's amazing that stuff still happens today, but it does.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
It does.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Like I love the fact on your website that your
hashtag is keep wildlife in the wild, which is perfect. Yeah, yeah, no,
that's perfect, yeah, perfect, Ye, they belong.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
No, it's true like the other it's the other lack
of awareness piece, which is just people don't necessarily understand
the difference between domesticated and wild animals. A lot of
the times. So you know, domesticated animals like cats and
dogs are they've co evolved with us for such a
long time that they thrive living with us, right, Wild animals,
(21:45):
I mean, they are hardwired to be out in the
wild in these complex environments, living with their own species.
So it's just, uh, it's it's that's their whole design
is to be unpredictable. That's how they adapt, you know.
So even if a zeo says, oh, like we tamed them,
(22:05):
they're trained, they're fine, they're safe, that is never true
for an animal that is wild.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's it's a wild animal. So
it's being true to what it is, you know, Yeah,
which you're right.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
I don't think people always understand that. Yeah. Yeah. So
for the person who's listening right.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Now, I think the best thing they can do to
get involved and learn more because your your website so extensive,
has so much information. They should definitely go to bornfreusa
dot org. You are a nonprofit, correct, so you get
grants and donations.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
That's how you survive to do the work you do.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Yeah, So you know, if someone's listening right now and
they are are motivated to do something to help out
Bornfreusa dot org and you can definitely make a donation.
But there's so much to read and learn about, so
you really, I do Your website is excellent for all
of that information.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
So thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
Well, no, Devin, thank you.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
So. I mean we hit on stuff that you know
is very is very important, stuff that you know, how
people can get involved, Any words of wisdom to leave
for someone who's listening, or you know something something that
you've learned because you've been doing this for a long
time and you've been with the organization for a long time.
(23:27):
I'm sure over the years, the way you've seen things
change in a good way right makes you feel inspired
and to continue the next day. Is there is there
something that you would like to share about your experience
from all these years of doing what you do.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Yeah, I think the one thing I would want people
to know, especially those who have been fighting for a
good change for animals, because as anyone will tell you,
it's it can seem very daunting. It can seem like
an impossible challenge and a possible time ask at some points,
just because there's so many animals that needs to be helped,
(24:04):
and maybe won't be able to be helped in their
lifetime or our lifetime. But the one thing that kind
of keeps me going is just the fact that, like,
for me, even just helping save one animal from a
life of suffering is worth it. Like if I have
done that in my career up to now, that would
(24:24):
make everything completely worth it, Because that's the whole thing
about compassionate conservation. It's valuing individuals in the same way
that you value species wide conservation. Right. So I learned
that when I started with Born for USA as a
primate caregiver at our primate sanctuary in South Texas, and
(24:45):
I just it really helped solidify the fact that like,
just even rescuing one monkey from suffering being kept in
a basement and a dog create for their whole life
like fifteen years, right, And then they come to us
and they get to step outside for the first time,
they get to see the sun, they get to feel
the sunshine on their skin for the first time, like
they get to see other monkeys and interact with other
(25:07):
monkeys for the first time. That alone, to me is
worth it enough to keep me going and give me
the drive to want to continue to help Singular animals
so that eventually we can help larger group of animals
and prevent them from entering the horrible things that continue
on today, like the pet trade or the illegal wildlife trade.
(25:28):
So yeah, that would be my one message though.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
That's a great one with people.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
Yeah yeah, that's so perfect, no, I you know, and
you've saved more than one animal, so I mean I
get it, you know. And and for those who aren't
doing and involved with the wildlife like you are, I mean,
it's the same thing as we say with adopting a
cat or dog one at a time, it still makes
a big difference. It makes a huge difference, like don't
go to a pet store because it's coming from a
(25:56):
puppy mill, you know. I know people who still don't
know about puppy mills, like what. But yeah, yeah, so
I completely get it.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
And that's like just such a perfect, perfect little tidbit
to leave everyone with.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
So Devin Show, thank you so much, thank you, thank you,
And for my listeners, please go to Bornfreusa dot org.
And Devin, I just feel like you're doing so much
and I would love to talk to you again down
the road and so you can tell us more about.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
What you're doing, because you're really doing amazing work, and
thank you.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Absolutely yes, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
Okay, well, thanks
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