May 13, 2025 • 28 mins
On this episode, host Phil Tower welcomes three individuals to talk about Michigan's newly updated law regarding surrogate parenting.
Phil spoke with Tammy Myers, a Michigan mother who was forced to adopt her biological twins in 2021 due to Michigan’s outdated surrogacy laws; Melissa Neckers, an attorney at Miller Johnson, and an expert in assisted reproduction and surrogacy law; and Jarret Zafran, a NYC-based attorney he is the founder and executive director of Brownstone Surrogacy.
All three guests join the program to talk about the new Michigan Family Protection Act. The new law, which took effect on April 1, 2025, decriminalizes surrogacy in Michigan and establishes clear legal frameworks for families formed through assisted reproduction and surrogacy. The law ensures legal recognition of intended parents in surrogacy arrangements from the moment of birth and provides protections for children, surrogates, and intended parents.
Michigan was the only state where surrogacy was still a felony, and it was the first state where surrogacy became a felony.
Phil spoke with Tammy Myers, a Michigan mother who was forced to adopt her biological twins in 2021 due to Michigan’s outdated surrogacy laws; Melissa Neckers, an attorney at Miller Johnson, and an expert in assisted reproduction and surrogacy law; and Jarret Zafran, a NYC-based attorney he is the founder and executive director of Brownstone Surrogacy.
All three guests join the program to talk about the new Michigan Family Protection Act. The new law, which took effect on April 1, 2025, decriminalizes surrogacy in Michigan and establishes clear legal frameworks for families formed through assisted reproduction and surrogacy. The law ensures legal recognition of intended parents in surrogacy arrangements from the moment of birth and provides protections for children, surrogates, and intended parents.
Michigan was the only state where surrogacy was still a felony, and it was the first state where surrogacy became a felony.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is iHeartRadio's West Michigan Weekend. West Michigan Weekend is
a weekly programmed designed to inform and enlighten on a
wide range of public policy issues, as well as news
and current events. Now here's your host, Phil Tower. This
is West.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Michigan Weekend from iHeartRadio. Thank you so much for tuning
in across whatever iHeartRadio station you may be listening to.
And in this segment, we unpack a very big issue,
in fact, a timely issue, because in early April, for
the first time in thirty seven years, Michigan made it
no longer a crime to enter into a surrogacy contract
(00:40):
in the state of Michigan. The nineteen eighty eight law
called the Surrogate Act, Michigan's nineteen eighty eight Surguate Act
effectively sought to legally end surrogacy. But that's all changed.
It's opened up a lot of new possibilities for families
and the new laws called the Michigan Family Protection Act. Verry,
(01:00):
please to welcome three guests. We have Tammy Myers, the
Michigan mother who is forced to adopt her own biological
twins in twenty twenty one due to the outdated sergucy
laws that were in effect then here in Michigan. Also,
Melissa Neckers is senior council with Miller Johnson here in
Grand Rapids. She was instrumental in building the Michigan Family
Protection Act. And finally, Jarrett Zefrin. Jarrett is the New
(01:24):
York City based attorney. He's also founder of an agency
that helps people who want to engage in sergacy parenting
and it's a national sergacy fern called Brownstone Sergacy. Already
seeing interest from moms in Michigan. And there's a lot
too unpacked here. First of all, to all of you,
I say welcome. And Jared, did I get your last
(01:46):
name right? By the way, it's Zephyrin, but Zanderan. I
knew it was a fifty to fifty shot, So.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Okay, Jared's lifelong viability.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah, okay, Jared. Zephyrn is with us as well, joining
us from New York City. And as we unpacked this issue,
I have a lot of questions, but I want to
start with you Melissa and Eckers. This is something you
are an expert in. You work in reproduction and surrogacy.
(02:19):
Let's go back to nineteen eighty eight. Why was this outlawed?
Being a surrogant parent and entering into a contract in Michigan.
Help us understand that?
Speaker 4 (02:28):
Yeah, thanks Phil, thanks for having us. In nineteen eighty eight,
the people may remember that the baby M case was
all over the news, and the baby M case involved
a couple from out east who couldn't The wife couldn't
(02:51):
carry a pregnancy, so they hired a woman to be
inseminated with the husband's firm, but using her own egg
and carrie a.
Speaker 5 (03:05):
Baby and give birth to the baby and then give
the baby to the father to raise The.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
Problem was she changed her mind and she was genetically
related to the child. Michigan had connections to that case
because there was a dearborn attorney who drafted the contract.
So that caused all kinds of legal battles, which then
caused the state legislature to say, we need to put
(03:35):
an end to this practice, and not only are we
going to not allow it to happen, we're going to
make it a crying to happen to prevent people from
doing this in the future. As you can imagine, technology
has changed a lot since nineteen eighty eight. The process
used in surrogacy has changed a lot since nineteen eighty eight. Specifically,
(03:55):
most surrogates now are gestational surrogates, meaning that they don't
use their own eggs, so they're not connected biologically to
the child. But the books, the law, and the books
remained geared towards preventing something that really wasn't happening much anymore.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Okay, and Tammy Myers, you were actually forced to adopt
your own biological twins roughly four years ago to due
to those outdated surrogacy laws. Tammy, if you would please
give us the background on your story and how you
came to be a strong advocate for updating this Michigan
(04:36):
family but to putting it into law, the Michigan Family
Protection Act.
Speaker 6 (04:41):
So my story is long and somewhat complex. I'll try
to sum it up. But I was actually diagnosed with
breast cancer at the age of thirty three, and at
the time I had a two year old daughter and
my husband and I were trying for our second So
being hit with a dev stating diagnosis like that right
(05:03):
in the middle of trying to build our family was
a huge old block and a huge hurdle, and right
away that was one of the first questions we asked
was A how long do I have and B can
we continue to grow our family? Can I have another baby?
And because of how hormone positive my cancer was, it
(05:25):
meant that carrying a child would ultimately more than likely
bring my cancer back, so it would come at a
huge risk to me. And after I finished my treatments
chemotherapy and radiation, they actually recommended having a hysterectomy just
to further reduce my risk. So we knew going forward
(05:47):
that the only way that we could build our family
would be to use a gestational carrier. Also go through
an emergency egg harvest before I started my treatments, and
then when the time came when I got through kind
of the the thick of cancer treatments in the surgical phase,
(06:07):
if we were to move forward, it would be through
a gestational carrier. So it took some time for us. Actually,
it took about six years, not only because of what
my body was going through, but the financial side of
it just really is a huge undertaking. So by the
time we were ready, you know, we knew it would
(06:29):
be complicated, but we had no idea that it would
get as extensive as it did. So for us, we
started the process. We were blessed to find a carrier
who we did not know. We found her through social
media and she signed on to carry our baby or
(06:53):
what it ended up to be our twins, really out
of the goodness of her heart, you know, of no
personal gain to herself. And that process started in twenty twenty.
To summarize the story, we were in the process of
getting all of our I guess legal ducks in a
(07:13):
row and had already put together and Melissa feel free
to jump in, but we had already put together a
pre birth order and submitted it to the courts and
were hoping that that would be the case for us,
especially because other couples like us were being granted pre
birth orders in Michigan.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
I want to jump in right here because I think
a lot of people mayn't work it. They may not
understand this Tammy. You contacted this person through social media.
She said, yes, I would be happy to help you out.
This person needed to go through in vitro to have
your twins implanted in her. Is that how that worked?
Speaker 4 (07:55):
Then?
Speaker 6 (07:57):
Yes, technically yes, they got.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
So they did.
Speaker 6 (08:02):
We had embryo stored. Okay, she had to go through
extensive testing to make sure that she was not only
emotionally fit, but physically fit to carry our children. Ready,
we had to go through all of the testing as well,
and then when the time came, we had to prepare
(08:23):
her body through daily injections and medications and constant scanning
to make sure that we could get her body in
the right place.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
Process that was happening.
Speaker 6 (08:36):
During the COVID nineteen pandemic. So yeah, it's in a
simple process. But once we finally got the green light,
we implanted our embryos.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
So it was criminal to pay a surrogate, it was
not criminal to do surrogacy what was called altruistic surrogacy,
which is what happened in Tanager.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Interesting. Interesting, And I just want to stop here. As
an outsider, you guys realize how amazing that is to
think about that. That's it's incredibly special. The voice you
just heard is Melissa Necker's an expert in this area
with surrogacy law with Miller Johnson Melissa in this case.
(09:19):
And I want to back up and ask both of
you this. When you get to the level of surrogacy, Tammy,
your reason because of your cancer diagnosis was pretty obvious.
Do some people also choose serrogucy now that we have
these wonderful new protections here in the state of Michigan.
Do some people choose surrogacy over IVF because of biological reasons?
(09:41):
Physiological reasons? Why would someone choose to be, you know,
to find a surrogate parent and work with Jared Zaffrin
in his firm versus go through IVF. And I'm trying
to unpack this for listeners at home who have no
familiarity with this process.
Speaker 4 (09:58):
Yeah, usually it's a modical reason. They don't have a uterus,
they have had multiple miscarriages, they have some reason that
prevents them from carrying the pregnancy themselves. Okay, and usually
in my experience that's a physical reason, but it could
be it could be something else too.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
And Jared Zaffrin, you created Brownstone Agency to help parents
who want to enter into a surrogacy agreement, which is
now legal here in Michigan as of early April. You
created this to help match people up. This is a
pretty delicate matching process, I would say, Jarrett, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
We have to make sure they're on the same page
about a lot of different things that the surrogate is
a good candidate for their fertility. Funny who's the ultimate
gatekeeper in this process, and that they're on the same
page between each other about the type of relationship they're
hoping for, what communication looks like, you know, even things
(10:57):
like is she vaccinated?
Speaker 4 (10:59):
Do they care?
Speaker 3 (11:01):
You know, who's going to make decisions when it comes
to the pregnancy, Like, it is a very unique thing
to collaborate on a pregnancy and to trust somebody else
to carry your child and to you know, trust this
couple who's child you're carrying to be collaborative and respectful
and have the type of relationship that you're hoping for
(11:22):
through this year plus long process. So it is very delicate.
It's it's it's kind of when you when you meet,
it's like the strangest blind date ever, right, Like, you
obviously have received a lot of information about each other,
and yet I did one of these match meetings last night,
and so you have a couple, you know, two couples
(11:43):
meeting that are making the biggest ask of each other
and embarking on this year plus long journey together. And
so we're very thorough and diligent and careful in the
way that we match people.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Up and there is a fee exchange because that's now legal.
Is that the process during that's right?
Speaker 3 (12:05):
Yeah, I mean a surrogate is compensated for the ways
this process will disrupt her life, the risks itself of
pregnancy and all that she's committed to, you know, through
this process, making time to meet with psychologists and attorneys
and negotiate that contract, the often daily injectable medications for
weeks that are part of the IVF process for her.
(12:28):
So it's it's a pretty intense process, and you know,
it's the rare person like that would do this entirely
for free, but it's it's doesn't remove anything about the
altruism to also be compensated and to benefit your own
family in the process, given that commitment in the way
that you know, her busy life as oftentimes a working
(12:51):
mother of multiple kids, you know, is disrupted along the way.
So surgates typically make about sixty thousand dollars, you know,
assuming that everything goes well. That can vary, but that's
pretty typical across.
Speaker 5 (13:06):
The United States.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Yeah, And I would think as much as it sounds like, hey,
that's a lot of money, it would be attractive to
people a lot of this is still done because they
really want to help someone have You've got to have
that compassion component at least. That's why I'm feeling from
an outsider's perspective. Do I have part of that?
Speaker 6 (13:27):
Right?
Speaker 4 (13:27):
Jarrett?
Speaker 3 (13:28):
One hundred percent. I always tell surrogates as they first
start investigating whether this is right for them, that the
money will never be worth it. They really need to
also have that commitment to help somebody start or build
their family. And that is the story that we hear
time and time again. It's my coworker was struggling with infertility,
(13:49):
my aunt had recurrent miscarriages. You know, my brother is
gay and he and his husband, you know, would would
need this in order to have biological kids. You know,
there's some sort of personal connection or just you know,
picking up in the news. They understand that they're needed
and that not everybody has been blessed with easy, uncomplicated
(14:11):
pregnancies in the way that.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
They have, Right. That's your Zaffron. He is the founder
and head of Brownstone Surrogacy, a national surrogacy firm that's
helping connect interested parents to be or parents who want
to conceive, couples who want to conceive is the better
way to explain that to help them find Michigan moms
(14:33):
in this case, in the state of Michigan become gestational surrogates.
I want to We're also speaking with Tammy Myers, a
Michigan mother who is forced to adopt your own biological
twins and a big reason that this new Michigan Family
Protection Act took place and was just signed into law
in early April. And also Melissa Necker's senior counsel at
(14:55):
Miller Johnson, who was very instrumental in helping wish the
Michigan Family Protection Act to become law. I read something,
you guys that totally kind of broke my brain. And
it's what the phrase I just said, a mother who
was forced to adopt her own biological kids, and people
(15:15):
hear that, and I'm just a guy in the radio.
You guys, you hear that, and that doesn't make sense,
but it essentially means, in an agreement where someone was
having your biological child in a surrogacy agreement because of
the outdated laws, you were legally forced to adopt your kids. Tammy,
did I get that right? The kids or you were
(15:36):
the surrogate mother? Excuse me help me and are confused
listeners that I've even confused more unpacked this will you please?
Speaker 6 (15:43):
So I was the intended parent. My husband and I
with were both biological parents, but in this scenario we
are considered the intended parent. Our gestational carrier was carrying
our biological children twins, a boy and the girl. And yes,
you are correct, we were forced to adopt them because
(16:04):
of the rulings that came down from our West.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Michigan Melissa and Neckers, can you help us explain that
from a legal perspective, So, there.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
Were several things that the law left holes in related
to the surrogacy process. First of all, the agreements that
people signed were not enforceable. So they had an agreement
that this justational carrier was carrying these babies for Jammy
and Jordan and would be that Tammy and Jordan would
be the parents and they would be listed on the
(16:33):
birth certificate.
Speaker 7 (16:34):
But that's not enforceable, and the Michigan statutes didn't have
a process to get Tammy and Jordan listed on the
birth certificate.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
So, because the laws were created before a woman really
was able to give birth to a baby that wasn't
her biological child. The law assumes or assumed that any
woman who gave birth to a baby was the mother
of the baby and would be listed on the birth
(17:06):
certificate as the mother, and her husband if she had one,
or spouse if she had one, would be listed as
the other parent. So in Tammy's case, the surrogate gave
birth to these two beautiful babies intending to have Tammy
and Jordan take them immediately upon birth. At least that
(17:28):
was our hope. And she was listed on the birth
certificate and her husband was listed on the birth certificate.
So to get them off the birth certificate, we had
to terminate their parental right, and then Tammy and Jordan
had to adopt them.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I see, thank you. There's a lot of clarity there,
and again people can understand how confusing a process this
would be. And I would assume we have a mother,
Tammy Myers. We have a surrogacy agings. See Jared Zephyrin
who's joining us from New York. And of course Melissa
(18:03):
Necker is an attorney expert in this area. In surrogacy,
you need a lot of professional assets on your side
to embark in this process. I guess not to slight you,
But I guess you could do this without a surrogacy expert.
But you've done this so many times, you're going to
know a lot of the pitfalls they're going to happen
with or without an attorney guiding you and the best
(18:25):
doctors fair enough to say.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Yeah, absolutely, I will never claim to be essential here,
but doing this without an agency that guides you every
step of the way is essentially taking on a part
time job. You have to figure out insurance complexities, You
have to figure out an ESCRO account and how these
payments are going to be made. You need to source
your own attorneys, your own psychologists. You need to be
(18:49):
the one coordinating with your clinic, booking travel, figuring out
monitoring locations around before and after an embryo transfer. So
there are a lot of cooks in this kitchen, and
you know, I think we provide a valuable service and
helping coordinate at every step of the way and also
helping to mediate the relationship if necessary. You know, the
(19:12):
we always hope that everything in this year plus process
goes smoothly, that the parties are communicating beautifully, they're on
the same page about things, but there may be little
things that come up where there's just a miscommunication and
to have just some third party that can help smooth
things over, facilitate difficult conversations, make sure that everybody is
(19:33):
always rowing in the same direction. Is I hope a
real value add So, you know, in a couple of
cases that we have where Melissa is representing two of
our first Michigan surrogates, you know, I think there have
already been a lot of logistical things that we've stepped
(19:54):
in and really helped the parties through. Really excited that finally,
under the Michigan Family Protection Act, this is an opportunity
available to Michigan families on both sides, you know, especially
surrogates that finally can be compensated for the incredible sacrifices
that they make on behalf of their intended families.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
That's Jared Zaffrin. He runs a surrogacy agency in New
York based surrogacy agency, Brownstone Surrogacy. We're also speaking with
Tammy Myers, who was involved in this process and forced
to adopt her biological children. As you just heard attorney
Melissa Neckers explain from Miller Johnson, an expert in surrogacy parenting,
(20:40):
a lot to unpack in this area. I haven't even
asked all my questions, but a really interesting thing to
bring up, Melissa Neckers, and I want to ask you
about this. Before the Michigan Family Protection Act took place
in early April of this year, this was an illegal
endeavor if money was exchanged. Yet doing research on this, Lissa,
(21:03):
this did happen. It happened quite frequently under the table.
It was not you know, like a lot of things
happened under the table, as they're called. This really makes
things a lot clearer, a lot more legal. Talk about
that process. Before the law was legal, you were either
lucky or you got into complications fair enough.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
So there were definitely surrogacies taking place in Michigan. I
wouldn't say they were under the table because they were legal.
They were just there was no compensation at all, and
compensation meant not just cash or payments.
Speaker 5 (21:41):
It meant no life insurance, it meant no necklace at
the hospital, it meant nothing of value. So that caused
several problems in being able to find people who would
act as a surrogate. But then the other problem was
that the statute specifically set that the agreements were unenforceable,
(22:02):
so we had to just have everybody sign something saying
this is what's going to happen if there's a problem
with the baby, this is what's going to happen if
the serious life is at risk. But if any of
those things actually came through, we couldn't and say, hey,
you said you would do this. We just had to
cross our fingers and hope that they would do it.
(22:23):
So was that was one piece, and then the other
part was the not being able to get parentage, and
every county in Michigan handled it differently because there was
no standard law. So judges would say, well, we need
to do something to be able to get the right
(22:44):
people on this Firth certificate, so I'm going to gramp
this order, and then other judges would say, oh, that's
not permitted by statutes, so I'm not going to do that.
Speaker 4 (22:52):
So there was no certainty in the whole process.
Speaker 5 (22:54):
We would go into it saying this is what we
hope is going to happen, and then we'd be constantly
shifting gears and try to figure out a way to
make it work.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Tammy Myers, you are at the heart of this story.
After you had to adopt your own biological twins in
twenty twenty one. Because of the complicated, outdated surrogacy laws
here in Michigan, you and your husband became strong advocates
for updating the legislation. I've got a couple of minutes
left for all of my guests on this very important
(23:28):
topic and powerful story, Tammy, what kind of advice would
you want to share in our final moments with people
interested in getting involved with surrogacy.
Speaker 6 (23:38):
Honestly, I feel like when our story went viral, it
really instilled a lot of fear in families looking to
grow through justational surrogacy. You know, a lot of the
unknowns and the uncertainties, and we truly were the worst
case scenario at the time. But now that we have
(24:02):
the Michigan Family Protection Act in place, it really is
a smooth, seamless process, especially when you're working with an agency.
You know, as Jarrett has noted, there are people in
place to help guide this along the way. You know,
making sure that you might that you have the right
(24:22):
legal representation is huge. We were very blessed to work
with Melissa, and although we had the worst case scenario,
we never felt just lost out there, you know, figuring
it out as we went. But I would say, you know,
the path with this new legislation really is clear and
(24:44):
attainable and really comprehensive. So families looking to grow outside of,
you know, naturally growing a family in the traditional ways
has become a whole lot easier in the state to
Michigan because of these laws, and not just for families
(25:05):
like mine who have experienced, you know, a traumatic diagnosis,
but also non traditional families and really big in the
LGBTQ community, or you know, for any reason, if you
need to use a gestational carrier, it's gotten a lot
easier in the state of Michigan. So I would hope
(25:26):
that it brings hope to families who need to seek
any form of reproductive assistance.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
I'm glad you shared that. I'm just about out of time,
real quick, twenty seconds or less. First, I'll start with you,
Zephyrn with Brownstone Surrogacy, and then you Melissa Niggers.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Yeah, I would echo what Tammy just said and say that,
you know, we've been doing this in forty five or
so other states. This has been practiced for decades and
the norm is that it is very safe and secure
and professionalized and you receive a order in the second
trimester of the pregnancy saying you are the legal parents
of this child that hasn't even been born yet. And
(26:02):
it's all very buttoned up and so a pitch to
Michigan moms out there who have it on their heart
to help others. If you were blessed with full term
pregnancies and you could see yourself doing this on behalf
of a couple that has struggled for years, or with
a cancer diagnosis, or for whom this is the only
option for parentage, I would encourage you to reach out
(26:26):
and to do some research into what sergacy might mean
for you and your family.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Thank you, Jared Melissa Necker's final words of wisdom as
an attorney and expert in surrogacy, parenting and a principle
with getting this new Michigan Family Protection Act past.
Speaker 4 (26:45):
Yes, so I would echo what Chammi said that everything
is different now. The new laws have protections for families
who are intending to parent the child, for the child
and for the surrogate.
Speaker 5 (27:01):
People now have to everybody has to be over twenty one,
everybody has to be represented by independent legal counsel. They
have to have medical evaluations, psychological evaluations. This is going
to be a much safer process for families. And so
thankfully something good came out of all of the stress
(27:21):
and craziness of Tammy's story, and so we're just grateful
to all the people. It was a huge joint effort
to get this past. The Michigan Fertility Alliance and the
legislatures leaders worked really hard at it, and they did
a really good job.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
It's hard to believe it took thirty seven years to
update that lay really is and I want to especially
think my guests, you all have been terrific. Tammy Myers attorney,
Melissa Necker's with Miller Johnson and Jarrett Zephyrin with Brownstone
Surrogacy in New York, unpacking a very big issue, the
(27:59):
issue of parenting, issue of surgacy, parenting, and much brighter
days ahead here in Michigan for those who embark on
that path. Thank you all for your time, really appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
Thank you than thank you for having us. Thank you
so much.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
What a program they have been our guest on this
full segment of West Michigan Weekend. A lot to digest here,
and we appreciate you staying with us for the full
program until next time. On this iHeartRadio station, I'm Phil Tower.
Thank you for listening. We'll catch you again real soon.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
You've been listening to iHeartRadio's West Michigan Weekend. West Michigan
Weekend is a production of Wood Radio and iHeartRadio
This is iHeartRadio's West Michigan Weekend. West Michigan Weekend is
a weekly programmed designed to inform and enlighten on a
wide range of public policy issues, as well as news
and current events. Now here's your host, Phil Tower. This
is West.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Michigan Weekend from iHeartRadio. Thank you so much for tuning
in across whatever iHeartRadio station you may be listening to.
And in this segment, we unpack a very big issue,
in fact, a timely issue, because in early April, for
the first time in thirty seven years, Michigan made it
no longer a crime to enter into a surrogacy contract
(00:40):
in the state of Michigan. The nineteen eighty eight law
called the Surrogate Act, Michigan's nineteen eighty eight Surguate Act
effectively sought to legally end surrogacy. But that's all changed.
It's opened up a lot of new possibilities for families
and the new laws called the Michigan Family Protection Act. Verry,
(01:00):
please to welcome three guests. We have Tammy Myers, the
Michigan mother who is forced to adopt her own biological
twins in twenty twenty one due to the outdated sergucy
laws that were in effect then here in Michigan. Also,
Melissa Neckers is senior council with Miller Johnson here in
Grand Rapids. She was instrumental in building the Michigan Family
Protection Act. And finally, Jarrett Zefrin. Jarrett is the New
(01:24):
York City based attorney. He's also founder of an agency
that helps people who want to engage in sergacy parenting
and it's a national sergacy fern called Brownstone Sergacy. Already
seeing interest from moms in Michigan. And there's a lot
too unpacked here. First of all, to all of you,
I say welcome. And Jared, did I get your last
(01:46):
name right? By the way, it's Zephyrin, but Zanderan. I
knew it was a fifty to fifty shot, So.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Okay, Jared's lifelong viability.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah, okay, Jared. Zephyrn is with us as well, joining
us from New York City. And as we unpacked this issue,
I have a lot of questions, but I want to
start with you Melissa and Eckers. This is something you
are an expert in. You work in reproduction and surrogacy.
(02:19):
Let's go back to nineteen eighty eight. Why was this outlawed?
Being a surrogant parent and entering into a contract in Michigan.
Help us understand that?
Speaker 4 (02:28):
Yeah, thanks Phil, thanks for having us. In nineteen eighty eight,
the people may remember that the baby M case was
all over the news, and the baby M case involved
a couple from out east who couldn't The wife couldn't
(02:51):
carry a pregnancy, so they hired a woman to be
inseminated with the husband's firm, but using her own egg
and carrie a.
Speaker 5 (03:05):
Baby and give birth to the baby and then give
the baby to the father to raise The.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
Problem was she changed her mind and she was genetically
related to the child. Michigan had connections to that case
because there was a dearborn attorney who drafted the contract.
So that caused all kinds of legal battles, which then
caused the state legislature to say, we need to put
(03:35):
an end to this practice, and not only are we
going to not allow it to happen, we're going to
make it a crying to happen to prevent people from
doing this in the future. As you can imagine, technology
has changed a lot since nineteen eighty eight. The process
used in surrogacy has changed a lot since nineteen eighty eight. Specifically,
(03:55):
most surrogates now are gestational surrogates, meaning that they don't
use their own eggs, so they're not connected biologically to
the child. But the books, the law, and the books
remained geared towards preventing something that really wasn't happening much anymore.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Okay, and Tammy Myers, you were actually forced to adopt
your own biological twins roughly four years ago to due
to those outdated surrogacy laws. Tammy, if you would please
give us the background on your story and how you
came to be a strong advocate for updating this Michigan
(04:36):
family but to putting it into law, the Michigan Family
Protection Act.
Speaker 6 (04:41):
So my story is long and somewhat complex. I'll try
to sum it up. But I was actually diagnosed with
breast cancer at the age of thirty three, and at
the time I had a two year old daughter and
my husband and I were trying for our second So
being hit with a dev stating diagnosis like that right
(05:03):
in the middle of trying to build our family was
a huge old block and a huge hurdle, and right
away that was one of the first questions we asked
was A how long do I have and B can
we continue to grow our family? Can I have another baby?
And because of how hormone positive my cancer was, it
(05:25):
meant that carrying a child would ultimately more than likely
bring my cancer back, so it would come at a
huge risk to me. And after I finished my treatments
chemotherapy and radiation, they actually recommended having a hysterectomy just
to further reduce my risk. So we knew going forward
(05:47):
that the only way that we could build our family
would be to use a gestational carrier. Also go through
an emergency egg harvest before I started my treatments, and
then when the time came when I got through kind
of the the thick of cancer treatments in the surgical phase,
(06:07):
if we were to move forward, it would be through
a gestational carrier. So it took some time for us. Actually,
it took about six years, not only because of what
my body was going through, but the financial side of
it just really is a huge undertaking. So by the
time we were ready, you know, we knew it would
(06:29):
be complicated, but we had no idea that it would
get as extensive as it did. So for us, we
started the process. We were blessed to find a carrier
who we did not know. We found her through social
media and she signed on to carry our baby or
(06:53):
what it ended up to be our twins, really out
of the goodness of her heart, you know, of no
personal gain to herself. And that process started in twenty twenty.
To summarize the story, we were in the process of
getting all of our I guess legal ducks in a
(07:13):
row and had already put together and Melissa feel free
to jump in, but we had already put together a
pre birth order and submitted it to the courts and
were hoping that that would be the case for us,
especially because other couples like us were being granted pre
birth orders in Michigan.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
I want to jump in right here because I think
a lot of people mayn't work it. They may not
understand this Tammy. You contacted this person through social media.
She said, yes, I would be happy to help you out.
This person needed to go through in vitro to have
your twins implanted in her. Is that how that worked?
Speaker 4 (07:55):
Then?
Speaker 6 (07:57):
Yes, technically yes, they got.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
So they did.
Speaker 6 (08:02):
We had embryo stored. Okay, she had to go through
extensive testing to make sure that she was not only
emotionally fit, but physically fit to carry our children. Ready,
we had to go through all of the testing as well,
and then when the time came, we had to prepare
(08:23):
her body through daily injections and medications and constant scanning
to make sure that we could get her body in
the right place.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
Process that was happening.
Speaker 6 (08:36):
During the COVID nineteen pandemic. So yeah, it's in a
simple process. But once we finally got the green light,
we implanted our embryos.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
So it was criminal to pay a surrogate, it was
not criminal to do surrogacy what was called altruistic surrogacy,
which is what happened in Tanager.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Interesting. Interesting, And I just want to stop here. As
an outsider, you guys realize how amazing that is to
think about that. That's it's incredibly special. The voice you
just heard is Melissa Necker's an expert in this area
with surrogacy law with Miller Johnson Melissa in this case.
(09:19):
And I want to back up and ask both of
you this. When you get to the level of surrogacy, Tammy,
your reason because of your cancer diagnosis was pretty obvious.
Do some people also choose serrogucy now that we have
these wonderful new protections here in the state of Michigan.
Do some people choose surrogacy over IVF because of biological reasons?
(09:41):
Physiological reasons? Why would someone choose to be, you know,
to find a surrogate parent and work with Jared Zaffrin
in his firm versus go through IVF. And I'm trying
to unpack this for listeners at home who have no
familiarity with this process.
Speaker 4 (09:58):
Yeah, usually it's a modical reason. They don't have a uterus,
they have had multiple miscarriages, they have some reason that
prevents them from carrying the pregnancy themselves. Okay, and usually
in my experience that's a physical reason, but it could
be it could be something else too.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
And Jared Zaffrin, you created Brownstone Agency to help parents
who want to enter into a surrogacy agreement, which is
now legal here in Michigan as of early April. You
created this to help match people up. This is a
pretty delicate matching process, I would say, Jarrett, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
We have to make sure they're on the same page
about a lot of different things that the surrogate is
a good candidate for their fertility. Funny who's the ultimate
gatekeeper in this process, and that they're on the same
page between each other about the type of relationship they're
hoping for, what communication looks like, you know, even things
(10:57):
like is she vaccinated?
Speaker 4 (10:59):
Do they care?
Speaker 3 (11:01):
You know, who's going to make decisions when it comes
to the pregnancy, Like, it is a very unique thing
to collaborate on a pregnancy and to trust somebody else
to carry your child and to you know, trust this
couple who's child you're carrying to be collaborative and respectful
and have the type of relationship that you're hoping for
(11:22):
through this year plus long process. So it is very delicate.
It's it's it's kind of when you when you meet,
it's like the strangest blind date ever, right, Like, you
obviously have received a lot of information about each other,
and yet I did one of these match meetings last night,
and so you have a couple, you know, two couples
(11:43):
meeting that are making the biggest ask of each other
and embarking on this year plus long journey together. And
so we're very thorough and diligent and careful in the
way that we match people.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Up and there is a fee exchange because that's now legal.
Is that the process during that's right?
Speaker 3 (12:05):
Yeah, I mean a surrogate is compensated for the ways
this process will disrupt her life, the risks itself of
pregnancy and all that she's committed to, you know, through
this process, making time to meet with psychologists and attorneys
and negotiate that contract, the often daily injectable medications for
weeks that are part of the IVF process for her.
(12:28):
So it's it's a pretty intense process, and you know,
it's the rare person like that would do this entirely
for free, but it's it's doesn't remove anything about the
altruism to also be compensated and to benefit your own
family in the process, given that commitment in the way
that you know, her busy life as oftentimes a working
(12:51):
mother of multiple kids, you know, is disrupted along the way.
So surgates typically make about sixty thousand dollars, you know,
assuming that everything goes well. That can vary, but that's
pretty typical across.
Speaker 5 (13:06):
The United States.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Yeah, And I would think as much as it sounds like, hey,
that's a lot of money, it would be attractive to
people a lot of this is still done because they
really want to help someone have You've got to have
that compassion component at least. That's why I'm feeling from
an outsider's perspective. Do I have part of that?
Speaker 6 (13:27):
Right?
Speaker 4 (13:27):
Jarrett?
Speaker 3 (13:28):
One hundred percent. I always tell surrogates as they first
start investigating whether this is right for them, that the
money will never be worth it. They really need to
also have that commitment to help somebody start or build
their family. And that is the story that we hear
time and time again. It's my coworker was struggling with infertility,
(13:49):
my aunt had recurrent miscarriages. You know, my brother is
gay and he and his husband, you know, would would
need this in order to have biological kids. You know,
there's some sort of personal connection or just you know,
picking up in the news. They understand that they're needed
and that not everybody has been blessed with easy, uncomplicated
(14:11):
pregnancies in the way that.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
They have, Right. That's your Zaffron. He is the founder
and head of Brownstone Surrogacy, a national surrogacy firm that's
helping connect interested parents to be or parents who want
to conceive, couples who want to conceive is the better
way to explain that to help them find Michigan moms
(14:33):
in this case, in the state of Michigan become gestational surrogates.
I want to We're also speaking with Tammy Myers, a
Michigan mother who is forced to adopt your own biological
twins and a big reason that this new Michigan Family
Protection Act took place and was just signed into law
in early April. And also Melissa Necker's senior counsel at
(14:55):
Miller Johnson, who was very instrumental in helping wish the
Michigan Family Protection Act to become law. I read something,
you guys that totally kind of broke my brain. And
it's what the phrase I just said, a mother who
was forced to adopt her own biological kids, and people
(15:15):
hear that, and I'm just a guy in the radio.
You guys, you hear that, and that doesn't make sense,
but it essentially means, in an agreement where someone was
having your biological child in a surrogacy agreement because of
the outdated laws, you were legally forced to adopt your kids. Tammy,
did I get that right? The kids or you were
(15:36):
the surrogate mother? Excuse me help me and are confused
listeners that I've even confused more unpacked this will you please?
Speaker 6 (15:43):
So I was the intended parent. My husband and I
with were both biological parents, but in this scenario we
are considered the intended parent. Our gestational carrier was carrying
our biological children twins, a boy and the girl. And yes,
you are correct, we were forced to adopt them because
(16:04):
of the rulings that came down from our West.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Michigan Melissa and Neckers, can you help us explain that
from a legal perspective, So, there.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
Were several things that the law left holes in related
to the surrogacy process. First of all, the agreements that
people signed were not enforceable. So they had an agreement
that this justational carrier was carrying these babies for Jammy
and Jordan and would be that Tammy and Jordan would
be the parents and they would be listed on the
(16:33):
birth certificate.
Speaker 7 (16:34):
But that's not enforceable, and the Michigan statutes didn't have
a process to get Tammy and Jordan listed on the
birth certificate.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
So, because the laws were created before a woman really
was able to give birth to a baby that wasn't
her biological child. The law assumes or assumed that any
woman who gave birth to a baby was the mother
of the baby and would be listed on the birth
(17:06):
certificate as the mother, and her husband if she had one,
or spouse if she had one, would be listed as
the other parent. So in Tammy's case, the surrogate gave
birth to these two beautiful babies intending to have Tammy
and Jordan take them immediately upon birth. At least that
(17:28):
was our hope. And she was listed on the birth
certificate and her husband was listed on the birth certificate.
So to get them off the birth certificate, we had
to terminate their parental right, and then Tammy and Jordan
had to adopt them.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I see, thank you. There's a lot of clarity there,
and again people can understand how confusing a process this
would be. And I would assume we have a mother,
Tammy Myers. We have a surrogacy agings. See Jared Zephyrin
who's joining us from New York. And of course Melissa
(18:03):
Necker is an attorney expert in this area. In surrogacy,
you need a lot of professional assets on your side
to embark in this process. I guess not to slight you,
But I guess you could do this without a surrogacy expert.
But you've done this so many times, you're going to
know a lot of the pitfalls they're going to happen
with or without an attorney guiding you and the best
(18:25):
doctors fair enough to say.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Yeah, absolutely, I will never claim to be essential here,
but doing this without an agency that guides you every
step of the way is essentially taking on a part
time job. You have to figure out insurance complexities, You
have to figure out an ESCRO account and how these
payments are going to be made. You need to source
your own attorneys, your own psychologists. You need to be
(18:49):
the one coordinating with your clinic, booking travel, figuring out
monitoring locations around before and after an embryo transfer. So
there are a lot of cooks in this kitchen, and
you know, I think we provide a valuable service and
helping coordinate at every step of the way and also
helping to mediate the relationship if necessary. You know, the
(19:12):
we always hope that everything in this year plus process
goes smoothly, that the parties are communicating beautifully, they're on
the same page about things, but there may be little
things that come up where there's just a miscommunication and
to have just some third party that can help smooth
things over, facilitate difficult conversations, make sure that everybody is
(19:33):
always rowing in the same direction. Is I hope a
real value add So, you know, in a couple of
cases that we have where Melissa is representing two of
our first Michigan surrogates, you know, I think there have
already been a lot of logistical things that we've stepped
(19:54):
in and really helped the parties through. Really excited that finally,
under the Michigan Family Protection Act, this is an opportunity
available to Michigan families on both sides, you know, especially
surrogates that finally can be compensated for the incredible sacrifices
that they make on behalf of their intended families.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
That's Jared Zaffrin. He runs a surrogacy agency in New
York based surrogacy agency, Brownstone Surrogacy. We're also speaking with
Tammy Myers, who was involved in this process and forced
to adopt her biological children. As you just heard attorney
Melissa Neckers explain from Miller Johnson, an expert in surrogacy parenting,
(20:40):
a lot to unpack in this area. I haven't even
asked all my questions, but a really interesting thing to
bring up, Melissa Neckers, and I want to ask you
about this. Before the Michigan Family Protection Act took place
in early April of this year, this was an illegal
endeavor if money was exchanged. Yet doing research on this, Lissa,
(21:03):
this did happen. It happened quite frequently under the table.
It was not you know, like a lot of things
happened under the table, as they're called. This really makes
things a lot clearer, a lot more legal. Talk about
that process. Before the law was legal, you were either
lucky or you got into complications fair enough.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
So there were definitely surrogacies taking place in Michigan. I
wouldn't say they were under the table because they were legal.
They were just there was no compensation at all, and
compensation meant not just cash or payments.
Speaker 5 (21:41):
It meant no life insurance, it meant no necklace at
the hospital, it meant nothing of value. So that caused
several problems in being able to find people who would
act as a surrogate. But then the other problem was
that the statute specifically set that the agreements were unenforceable,
(22:02):
so we had to just have everybody sign something saying
this is what's going to happen if there's a problem
with the baby, this is what's going to happen if
the serious life is at risk. But if any of
those things actually came through, we couldn't and say, hey,
you said you would do this. We just had to
cross our fingers and hope that they would do it.
(22:23):
So was that was one piece, and then the other
part was the not being able to get parentage, and
every county in Michigan handled it differently because there was
no standard law. So judges would say, well, we need
to do something to be able to get the right
(22:44):
people on this Firth certificate, so I'm going to gramp
this order, and then other judges would say, oh, that's
not permitted by statutes, so I'm not going to do that.
Speaker 4 (22:52):
So there was no certainty in the whole process.
Speaker 5 (22:54):
We would go into it saying this is what we
hope is going to happen, and then we'd be constantly
shifting gears and try to figure out a way to
make it work.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Tammy Myers, you are at the heart of this story.
After you had to adopt your own biological twins in
twenty twenty one. Because of the complicated, outdated surrogacy laws
here in Michigan, you and your husband became strong advocates
for updating the legislation. I've got a couple of minutes
left for all of my guests on this very important
(23:28):
topic and powerful story, Tammy, what kind of advice would
you want to share in our final moments with people
interested in getting involved with surrogacy.
Speaker 6 (23:38):
Honestly, I feel like when our story went viral, it
really instilled a lot of fear in families looking to
grow through justational surrogacy. You know, a lot of the
unknowns and the uncertainties, and we truly were the worst
case scenario at the time. But now that we have
(24:02):
the Michigan Family Protection Act in place, it really is
a smooth, seamless process, especially when you're working with an agency.
You know, as Jarrett has noted, there are people in
place to help guide this along the way. You know,
making sure that you might that you have the right
(24:22):
legal representation is huge. We were very blessed to work
with Melissa, and although we had the worst case scenario,
we never felt just lost out there, you know, figuring
it out as we went. But I would say, you know,
the path with this new legislation really is clear and
(24:44):
attainable and really comprehensive. So families looking to grow outside of,
you know, naturally growing a family in the traditional ways
has become a whole lot easier in the state to
Michigan because of these laws, and not just for families
(25:05):
like mine who have experienced, you know, a traumatic diagnosis,
but also non traditional families and really big in the
LGBTQ community, or you know, for any reason, if you
need to use a gestational carrier, it's gotten a lot
easier in the state of Michigan. So I would hope
(25:26):
that it brings hope to families who need to seek
any form of reproductive assistance.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
I'm glad you shared that. I'm just about out of time,
real quick, twenty seconds or less. First, I'll start with you,
Zephyrn with Brownstone Surrogacy, and then you Melissa Niggers.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Yeah, I would echo what Tammy just said and say that,
you know, we've been doing this in forty five or
so other states. This has been practiced for decades and
the norm is that it is very safe and secure
and professionalized and you receive a order in the second
trimester of the pregnancy saying you are the legal parents
of this child that hasn't even been born yet. And
(26:02):
it's all very buttoned up and so a pitch to
Michigan moms out there who have it on their heart
to help others. If you were blessed with full term
pregnancies and you could see yourself doing this on behalf
of a couple that has struggled for years, or with
a cancer diagnosis, or for whom this is the only
option for parentage, I would encourage you to reach out
(26:26):
and to do some research into what sergacy might mean
for you and your family.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Thank you, Jared Melissa Necker's final words of wisdom as
an attorney and expert in surrogacy, parenting and a principle
with getting this new Michigan Family Protection Act past.
Speaker 4 (26:45):
Yes, so I would echo what Chammi said that everything
is different now. The new laws have protections for families
who are intending to parent the child, for the child
and for the surrogate.
Speaker 5 (27:01):
People now have to everybody has to be over twenty one,
everybody has to be represented by independent legal counsel. They
have to have medical evaluations, psychological evaluations. This is going
to be a much safer process for families. And so
thankfully something good came out of all of the stress
(27:21):
and craziness of Tammy's story, and so we're just grateful
to all the people. It was a huge joint effort
to get this past. The Michigan Fertility Alliance and the
legislatures leaders worked really hard at it, and they did
a really good job.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
It's hard to believe it took thirty seven years to
update that lay really is and I want to especially
think my guests, you all have been terrific. Tammy Myers attorney,
Melissa Necker's with Miller Johnson and Jarrett Zephyrin with Brownstone
Surrogacy in New York, unpacking a very big issue, the
(27:59):
issue of parenting, issue of surgacy, parenting, and much brighter
days ahead here in Michigan for those who embark on
that path. Thank you all for your time, really appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
Thank you than thank you for having us. Thank you
so much.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
What a program they have been our guest on this
full segment of West Michigan Weekend. A lot to digest here,
and we appreciate you staying with us for the full
program until next time. On this iHeartRadio station, I'm Phil Tower.
Thank you for listening. We'll catch you again real soon.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
You've been listening to iHeartRadio's West Michigan Weekend. West Michigan
Weekend is a production of Wood Radio and iHeartRadio
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