October 19, 2025 • 12 mins
Mindy and Mikaela speak with Ann from Open Arms Counseling about fear of ghosts!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Got my orange and black sweatshired on. That says spooky,
and I think that's all it says, a spooky all
over it.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Right, that's all it says, spooky, spooky, spooky.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
But Tina was so gracious to give up two of
her hours to come in here and answer questions. And
I did hate to end that way with John's call.
But by the same token, Mikayla and I are fair
to everybody. You want to call in and talk and
have your opinion, whether you want to call us out
or call out our guest. It's just kind of a
I don't know your thoughts.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
My thoughts.
Speaker 4 (00:30):
We're not going to not we're not going to ignore calls.
We will not call because of something, but.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Like, let's have intelligent two way conversations. And you know,
I appreciate that he's a skeptic. We talked about it,
and I appreciate that he called. And that's what I'll
say about it. I mean, I'm glad he listened. I'm
glad that he's tuned in some But when we disagree
with people, we don't just have to take him out.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Yeah, And that was one call in the middle of
so many two hours worth.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Of straight, probably seventy I have one hundred calls.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
And the way it came it up to she was
very specific about she can see this dog in a
white house. It's like a barn shaped house. Yeah, that's
where the dog is, a dog still alive. That was
kind of specific.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Well, and the things that she has told us in
our own lives that are so specific, it's pretty wild
as that she would not know.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
But he only heard the last what ten to fifteen minutes.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
So anyway, so it's spooky season, it's Halloween is around
the corner, and so we talked with Tina and now
we're gonna have our therapy around some of the things
we're feeling and seeing around this season.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Because there is such a fear of paranormal activity. It
will keep people up at night, it will keep people
afraid of the dark, afraid to be alone.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
It's a real thing. So we thought we would have that.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Conversation as we're just about two weeks a week and
a half away from Halloween where people do freak out.
You're seeing so many scary movies out and about right now,
and Hers with Open Arms Counseling who we've had quite
a show already, Ann, but it's it's a real deal.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
People really do fear the unknown.
Speaker 5 (02:03):
Oh yeah, absolutely, And the fear can get worse around
the Halloween time because it's notoriously a time when people
say that the veil between the living and the dead
become the thinnest. So yeah, it can become really a
huge fear around Halloween.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
The veil becoming the thinniest. I've definitely heard about that before, Ann.
And you know, I'm in the process of one of
the shows I was watching on my way home on
the plane the other day. I'm starting to watch The Chosen.
I've been wanting to watch it for a while and
one of the things they talk about is, you know,
demonic things, exorcisms, people really and I was thinking about
(02:42):
the things that people struggle with, whether it's spirits, whether
it's you know, their own like internal struggles and demons.
When it comes to the spirit side of things. What
kind of fears do you hear that people struggle with
that are of the shadowy kind of nature you will,
or things around this time of year that would be
(03:02):
associated with that.
Speaker 5 (03:05):
Well, I've heard I've had clients talk to me about
feeling that there is a presence in their house all
the way to feeling that they have been visited within
themselves by a spirit and you know, being very fearful
of all of that.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
So there is something called pasmophobia, and it is the
fear of ghosts.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Is it easy to overcome?
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Because I think this is something that you either are
or you're not, and I don't know if it's something
you can actually get over.
Speaker 5 (03:40):
It is something you can get over. It's very terrifying,
and yes, it is something you can overcome. A lot
of it is through talking things over. Some of it
is through progressive exposure, depending on the situation, and just
becoming more comfortable with the area or what my be
(04:00):
causing the problem in the area. I've also known people
who were afraid of their home because of certain sounds
that were being made, and then it's found that they
had a plumbing issue which caused issues a sound in
the wall that created the situation. And then when they
found that out, it's like, oh, okay.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
We had a pipe that happened with Now so you
feel that no ghost progressive?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
What did you call that again?
Speaker 4 (04:27):
Progressive?
Speaker 1 (04:27):
What was it? Oh?
Speaker 5 (04:29):
Gosh, I said it. Now I'm going to.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Forget exposure, progressive exposure, right, thank you, yes, thank you?
What does progressive I had to think of a second two.
What does progressive exposure look like? When you're talking about
fear of ghosts, fear of like the dark.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Like, does that mean you need to keep putting yourself
in front of whatever it is?
Speaker 5 (04:47):
Well, not necessarily, you do it in little, tiny increments.
If the area has been shown to be completely safe
and the fear is psychosomatic, let's say, then you would
start by picturing yourself in that area being perfectly safe,
and then you'd be you know, it's like a As
(05:12):
you go, you bring the exposure a little bit more
and more to a point where the client does not
get too overwhelmed by it until they're able to be
in that space if that's what they want. If they
prefer to move, that's fine too. I've always been a
good proponent of the geographical cure as well.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
I'm talking to Annhurst with Open Arms Counseling, and why
does so many of us fear the dark? Why do
we hate to be alone, especially at night when it's
dark out?
Speaker 5 (05:43):
Well, i mean think about it. In the dark, you
can't see what's going on around you. There's you know,
for me, I hear the dark because I might trip
over a bone in the middle of the floor.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
My dog left.
Speaker 5 (05:56):
Because and this has been the way that we are
set up. Are nervous systems are set that way because
we can't see very well in the dark and things
might sneak up on us, so our nervous systems become
more heightened in the middle of a dark area.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
Do you during this time of year do you hear
maybe more from folks who are struggling with some of
those things that are harder to talk about, Like they
feel like they've seen something, heard something. I don't know
if that were to happen. I'm trying to think, mindy,
what like what would we do, like if you heard
something or saw something.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
That's the thing, I don't know, I would struggle with
talking about it.
Speaker 5 (06:34):
It depends on the person. I mean. There are also
people who feel that they've seen a loved one who
they cared for dearly and it brings a sense of
peace to them as opposed to the fear of it.
And then there are the whole And as far as
I'm concerned, I have not made an actual determination in
(06:55):
myself whether or not it truly exists or not. I
do know that I've seen people who have, like I said,
gotten a great sense of peace from saying that they've
seen people that they loved in life. And I have
met people who have feared demonic presences and such. And
I do know that I met one man who he
(07:19):
drives out demonic presences and he says that we as
humans don't realize our power. It's like the demons are
mice and we are elephants, and with one word, we
could expel them, but we're afraid. So, you know, just
like an elephant could stamp on a demon or stamp
on a mouse, we could just say be gone, and
(07:43):
they have to obey.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
So I don't know, there's such a fear of death,
and there is a fear of ghosts and spirits maybe
things around us.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
But what you said is true.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
So many of us want to have a connection with
our parents or grandparents or a loved one who has
died and no longer here. That they shouldn't be afraid
of that, and they sometimes they even ask for it,
you know, show me a sign that you're around, do something,
and then all of a sudden, the class bowl falls
off the shelf behind you, you know, or something like that.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
But if you're.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Asking for it because you want to stay with that connection,
you know, that keep that connection alive, that's kind of
a great area where yeah, it's a little scary, but
it's kind of warm.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Too and emotional and beautiful.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
You made me think of something that goes with this conversation,
mindy in stating that. And there's been so much research
and science about death out and even in the last
couple of years, it's pretty amazing. And I know you
must counsel those who are facing death or dying. What
(08:54):
are take us inside a conversation like that and some
of the things you discussed with them if you could
when they're thinking about that moment. It has to be
so difficult because it's like the thing that we don't
talk a ton about in society, but everyone's going to
have it happen to them.
Speaker 5 (09:10):
Well. As a counselor, I always find out what their
belief system is before talking to them about and follow
along with that belief system as a Christian. If my
counsel is a Christian, I sometimes refer him to the
book Sixty Minutes in Heaven, where a true story about
a pastor who did die and came back and he
(09:32):
remembers the experience that he had in heaven and he
wrote it down and it's just an amazing book. From that,
also other little glimpses into Heaven that we see. So
it's always more helpful when somebody you know believes in
an afterlife. But if not, you know, we talk through
(09:53):
what their belief system is and what to expect.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Sixty Minutes in Heaven is a fantastic book.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
He was the one who died on the road, right
and then came back and had that thing on his
leg for a while.
Speaker 4 (10:03):
That right, Yeah, Oh, such a good book.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
I highly suggests. I'm so glad you mentioned it.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Rock City is doing a series right now and it's
called What Happens When I Die? And there was a
minister down in Texas who interviewed so many people not
just in America but all over the world with near
death experiences. They literally died and came back and what
they described, so many of these cases were so similar,
and these people died went to heaven, we felt themself
(10:30):
lifting up, looked at their body down below, and then
felt the warm embrace of Jesus.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
Where other people he interviewed.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Were in hell and they were being greeted by demons
tearing their body apart, and they were told and they
would hear a voice pray to me, and he ignored it.
A third time, prayed to me, and he sees a
little glimpse of a white bright light for him to
go through and get saved and go back up to
heaven and not go to hell.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
It's so interesting.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Well, I just chill.
Speaker 5 (11:03):
That is so fat.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
Oh, there's so many things I can tell you about
that series.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
It's it's it's about things that we do along the
way and how many people are affected that we don't
even know. And you sit there at the end of
your life and you watch a rerun of your life
with God, things that you did right, things that you
did wrong, and who wouldn't fix.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
I want I'm going to ask you to show me
who this pastor is, because the guy that Anne and
I are talking about is a pastor in Texas.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
So really that this happened to and.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
I wonder if he I think he might do it anyway,
that would be a crazy connection.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
We're going to peddle it after the break.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
So and what's your best piece of advice for people
so they don't have to live in fear.
Speaker 5 (11:39):
I don't live in here. If there's anything that's causing
you clinical significance, things that are getting in the way
of your life, give us a call six one four
six two five seven one eighty three or go online
to open Arms Counseling dot com. And if you want
to have fun, the Haunted Prison is going on right now.
Blood prison. I think at Field Reformatory, not that they
(12:01):
do anything to promote them, but I live right.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Next to them, so you know, they're your neighbors, they're
your community. And thank you so much, appreciate it. Sixty
minutes and have any I guys pick up that book.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
And Openarmscounseling dot com if you need help with anything
that you're going through.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
You have a great team of people there and that's
for sure.
Speaker 5 (12:22):
Thanks and send me the Google results please we will.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
We're going to do some quick research. This is what
matters uns extent WTV in Bye
Got my orange and black sweatshired on. That says spooky,
and I think that's all it says, a spooky all
over it.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Right, that's all it says, spooky, spooky, spooky.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
But Tina was so gracious to give up two of
her hours to come in here and answer questions. And
I did hate to end that way with John's call.
But by the same token, Mikayla and I are fair
to everybody. You want to call in and talk and
have your opinion, whether you want to call us out
or call out our guest. It's just kind of a
I don't know your thoughts.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
My thoughts.
Speaker 4 (00:30):
We're not going to not we're not going to ignore calls.
We will not call because of something, but.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Like, let's have intelligent two way conversations. And you know,
I appreciate that he's a skeptic. We talked about it,
and I appreciate that he called. And that's what I'll
say about it. I mean, I'm glad he listened. I'm
glad that he's tuned in some But when we disagree
with people, we don't just have to take him out.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Yeah, And that was one call in the middle of
so many two hours worth.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Of straight, probably seventy I have one hundred calls.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
And the way it came it up to she was
very specific about she can see this dog in a
white house. It's like a barn shaped house. Yeah, that's
where the dog is, a dog still alive. That was
kind of specific.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Well, and the things that she has told us in
our own lives that are so specific, it's pretty wild
as that she would not know.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
But he only heard the last what ten to fifteen minutes.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
So anyway, so it's spooky season, it's Halloween is around
the corner, and so we talked with Tina and now
we're gonna have our therapy around some of the things
we're feeling and seeing around this season.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Because there is such a fear of paranormal activity. It
will keep people up at night, it will keep people
afraid of the dark, afraid to be alone.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
It's a real thing. So we thought we would have that.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Conversation as we're just about two weeks a week and
a half away from Halloween where people do freak out.
You're seeing so many scary movies out and about right now,
and Hers with Open Arms Counseling who we've had quite
a show already, Ann, but it's it's a real deal.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
People really do fear the unknown.
Speaker 5 (02:03):
Oh yeah, absolutely, And the fear can get worse around
the Halloween time because it's notoriously a time when people
say that the veil between the living and the dead
become the thinnest. So yeah, it can become really a
huge fear around Halloween.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
The veil becoming the thinniest. I've definitely heard about that before, Ann.
And you know, I'm in the process of one of
the shows I was watching on my way home on
the plane the other day. I'm starting to watch The Chosen.
I've been wanting to watch it for a while and
one of the things they talk about is, you know,
demonic things, exorcisms, people really and I was thinking about
(02:42):
the things that people struggle with, whether it's spirits, whether
it's you know, their own like internal struggles and demons.
When it comes to the spirit side of things. What
kind of fears do you hear that people struggle with
that are of the shadowy kind of nature you will,
or things around this time of year that would be
(03:02):
associated with that.
Speaker 5 (03:05):
Well, I've heard I've had clients talk to me about
feeling that there is a presence in their house all
the way to feeling that they have been visited within
themselves by a spirit and you know, being very fearful
of all of that.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
So there is something called pasmophobia, and it is the
fear of ghosts.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Is it easy to overcome?
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Because I think this is something that you either are
or you're not, and I don't know if it's something
you can actually get over.
Speaker 5 (03:40):
It is something you can get over. It's very terrifying,
and yes, it is something you can overcome. A lot
of it is through talking things over. Some of it
is through progressive exposure, depending on the situation, and just
becoming more comfortable with the area or what my be
(04:00):
causing the problem in the area. I've also known people
who were afraid of their home because of certain sounds
that were being made, and then it's found that they
had a plumbing issue which caused issues a sound in
the wall that created the situation. And then when they
found that out, it's like, oh, okay.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
We had a pipe that happened with Now so you
feel that no ghost progressive?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
What did you call that again?
Speaker 4 (04:27):
Progressive?
Speaker 1 (04:27):
What was it? Oh?
Speaker 5 (04:29):
Gosh, I said it. Now I'm going to.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Forget exposure, progressive exposure, right, thank you, yes, thank you?
What does progressive I had to think of a second two.
What does progressive exposure look like? When you're talking about
fear of ghosts, fear of like the dark.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Like, does that mean you need to keep putting yourself
in front of whatever it is?
Speaker 5 (04:47):
Well, not necessarily, you do it in little, tiny increments.
If the area has been shown to be completely safe
and the fear is psychosomatic, let's say, then you would
start by picturing yourself in that area being perfectly safe,
and then you'd be you know, it's like a As
(05:12):
you go, you bring the exposure a little bit more
and more to a point where the client does not
get too overwhelmed by it until they're able to be
in that space if that's what they want. If they
prefer to move, that's fine too. I've always been a
good proponent of the geographical cure as well.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
I'm talking to Annhurst with Open Arms Counseling, and why
does so many of us fear the dark? Why do
we hate to be alone, especially at night when it's
dark out?
Speaker 5 (05:43):
Well, i mean think about it. In the dark, you
can't see what's going on around you. There's you know,
for me, I hear the dark because I might trip
over a bone in the middle of the floor.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
My dog left.
Speaker 5 (05:56):
Because and this has been the way that we are
set up. Are nervous systems are set that way because
we can't see very well in the dark and things
might sneak up on us, so our nervous systems become
more heightened in the middle of a dark area.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
Do you during this time of year do you hear
maybe more from folks who are struggling with some of
those things that are harder to talk about, Like they
feel like they've seen something, heard something. I don't know
if that were to happen. I'm trying to think, mindy,
what like what would we do, like if you heard
something or saw something.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
That's the thing, I don't know, I would struggle with
talking about it.
Speaker 5 (06:34):
It depends on the person. I mean. There are also
people who feel that they've seen a loved one who
they cared for dearly and it brings a sense of
peace to them as opposed to the fear of it.
And then there are the whole And as far as
I'm concerned, I have not made an actual determination in
(06:55):
myself whether or not it truly exists or not. I
do know that I've seen people who have, like I said,
gotten a great sense of peace from saying that they've
seen people that they loved in life. And I have
met people who have feared demonic presences and such. And
I do know that I met one man who he
(07:19):
drives out demonic presences and he says that we as
humans don't realize our power. It's like the demons are
mice and we are elephants, and with one word, we
could expel them, but we're afraid. So, you know, just
like an elephant could stamp on a demon or stamp
on a mouse, we could just say be gone, and
(07:43):
they have to obey.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
So I don't know, there's such a fear of death,
and there is a fear of ghosts and spirits maybe
things around us.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
But what you said is true.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
So many of us want to have a connection with
our parents or grandparents or a loved one who has
died and no longer here. That they shouldn't be afraid
of that, and they sometimes they even ask for it,
you know, show me a sign that you're around, do something,
and then all of a sudden, the class bowl falls
off the shelf behind you, you know, or something like that.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
But if you're.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Asking for it because you want to stay with that connection,
you know, that keep that connection alive, that's kind of
a great area where yeah, it's a little scary, but
it's kind of warm.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Too and emotional and beautiful.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
You made me think of something that goes with this conversation,
mindy in stating that. And there's been so much research
and science about death out and even in the last
couple of years, it's pretty amazing. And I know you
must counsel those who are facing death or dying. What
(08:54):
are take us inside a conversation like that and some
of the things you discussed with them if you could
when they're thinking about that moment. It has to be
so difficult because it's like the thing that we don't
talk a ton about in society, but everyone's going to
have it happen to them.
Speaker 5 (09:10):
Well. As a counselor, I always find out what their
belief system is before talking to them about and follow
along with that belief system as a Christian. If my
counsel is a Christian, I sometimes refer him to the
book Sixty Minutes in Heaven, where a true story about
a pastor who did die and came back and he
(09:32):
remembers the experience that he had in heaven and he
wrote it down and it's just an amazing book. From that,
also other little glimpses into Heaven that we see. So
it's always more helpful when somebody you know believes in
an afterlife. But if not, you know, we talk through
(09:53):
what their belief system is and what to expect.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Sixty Minutes in Heaven is a fantastic book.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
He was the one who died on the road, right
and then came back and had that thing on his
leg for a while.
Speaker 4 (10:03):
That right, Yeah, Oh, such a good book.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
I highly suggests. I'm so glad you mentioned it.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Rock City is doing a series right now and it's
called What Happens When I Die? And there was a
minister down in Texas who interviewed so many people not
just in America but all over the world with near
death experiences. They literally died and came back and what
they described, so many of these cases were so similar,
and these people died went to heaven, we felt themself
(10:30):
lifting up, looked at their body down below, and then
felt the warm embrace of Jesus.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
Where other people he interviewed.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Were in hell and they were being greeted by demons
tearing their body apart, and they were told and they
would hear a voice pray to me, and he ignored it.
A third time, prayed to me, and he sees a
little glimpse of a white bright light for him to
go through and get saved and go back up to
heaven and not go to hell.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
It's so interesting.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Well, I just chill.
Speaker 5 (11:03):
That is so fat.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
Oh, there's so many things I can tell you about
that series.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
It's it's it's about things that we do along the
way and how many people are affected that we don't
even know. And you sit there at the end of
your life and you watch a rerun of your life
with God, things that you did right, things that you
did wrong, and who wouldn't fix.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
I want I'm going to ask you to show me
who this pastor is, because the guy that Anne and
I are talking about is a pastor in Texas.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
So really that this happened to and.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
I wonder if he I think he might do it anyway,
that would be a crazy connection.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
We're going to peddle it after the break.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
So and what's your best piece of advice for people
so they don't have to live in fear.
Speaker 5 (11:39):
I don't live in here. If there's anything that's causing
you clinical significance, things that are getting in the way
of your life, give us a call six one four
six two five seven one eighty three or go online
to open Arms Counseling dot com. And if you want
to have fun, the Haunted Prison is going on right now.
Blood prison. I think at Field Reformatory, not that they
(12:01):
do anything to promote them, but I live right.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Next to them, so you know, they're your neighbors, they're
your community. And thank you so much, appreciate it. Sixty
minutes and have any I guys pick up that book.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
And Openarmscounseling dot com if you need help with anything
that you're going through.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
You have a great team of people there and that's
for sure.
Speaker 5 (12:22):
Thanks and send me the Google results please we will.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
We're going to do some quick research. This is what
matters uns extent WTV in Bye
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.