August 8, 2024 • 37 mins
How many of the world's creative thinkers - our songwriters, poets, comedians, and artists began life escaping from the reality of their life? One that I know is my guest this week. Aaron Starkman is one of the top 100 Creative Minds in Advertising, and the Chief Creative Officer of Rethink, a Canadian Agency that is recognized as the best in the world.
Aaron shares his journey from a challenging childhood to rising to the top while offering insights into the creative process and why processing it matters to one's life and livelihood.
Highlights of This Episode:
Uncovering the Creative Process: Explore the unique strategies that have propelled Rethink to the top of the advertising world.
From Trauma to Triumph: Learn how Aaron’s early experiences shaped his resilience and fostered his creativity.
Mental Health and Personal Growth: Aaron’s candid story about overcoming anxiety and what he had to do to find peace and clarity.
The Power of Insights: Discover the importance of seeing what others might overlook.
Setting the Conditions for Success: Understand how a process-driven approach leads to remarkable outcomes.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Years ago, now I'm dating myself, but before your phone allowed you to
carry thousands of pictures in your pocket, some people
would leave their house with a plastic wallet that unfolded like a waterfall
into several compartments, and each one would house a photograph.
And each of these photographs meant something to the individual. They were markers.
They might have marked a relationship, a moment in time, a memory they
(00:27):
wanted to share, a story they wanted to enhance with imagery. Somebody that used to
be in their life is no longer there. And in many
ways, chatter that matters is an audio version of a plastic
wallet. I interview guests to learn about their journey, the choices they make, the
moments that matter. But instead of pictures, we rely on conversations,
and my guest's ability to animate their life, their trauma, their triumphs,
(00:49):
their challenges, their choices, the unexpected and unexpected.
And the lessons they have learned, I hope can help the rest of us get
to where we need 1 and deserve to go. My guest
today is no exception. He didn't have the greatest childhood. He made a
career defining decisions. After years invested in
studying psychology, with aspirations possibly to become a
(01:11):
lawyer, He's had to fill some of the biggest shoes in his
industry, but he found a way to realize enormous career success,
only at times to find himself not happy. And I think that's a theme that
we've seen time and time again, that sometimes what we chase when we
get there and look around, we go, is this really where I wanna be? I
had gotten fired three times. I also started saying,
(01:33):
Beth, maybe I'm not any good. You know, my advice for for anybody
breaking into the industry is if you get canned, it could be the
best thing that ever happens to you. It kind of made me appreciate
being in the business. Don't take anything for granted. You also get
a little bit of a chip on your shoulder. You try harder
because you don't want to get canned again. And today at the pinnacle of
(01:56):
his career, he's also lit a fuse that's counting down to his
retirement. His name's Aaron Startin. He's much too young
to retire. And I hope he offers you some powerful
insights into his life and ideally ours, and
that the time we spend together is time well spent.
(02:20):
This is chatter that matters with Tony Chapman
Aaron Starkman, welcome to Chatter That Matters. Well, thanks for having me, Tony.
Listen, I'm a huge fan of everything that you do and that your
agency puts out. And there's really no exaggeration in saying that this
made in Canada shop is among the best, if not
(02:43):
the best in the world. Just explain to my listeners that in
terms of the advertising world, what it means to be recognized in
that company and more often than not, be at the top of that company. We
are all singing from the same song sheet. I think that's
how we're doing it, and thank you for that compliment, Tony.
Whether you're in the discipline of account
(03:06):
services or accounting even in design,
we are all, following the same playbook, and that's
everything. It really is. So, every
person in the company is clear on goals
and every single person is clear on how to get
there. When you're clear about your ambitions
(03:30):
and everyone understands that the goal,
is effectiveness on your clients' brands. But
the strategy to get there is bold creativity.
When everybody gets that as a strategy for your client
and for your own agency success, it
it yields to good results, and we're finding that the last few years. But we're
(03:51):
not talking about manufacturing automobiles in an assembly
line or even inventing the next chip. We're talking about something
very intangible, which is advertising. It's baked in insights,
ideas, a lot of salesmanship has to go in it because you have
to you have to find courageous clients with the courage to try
different things. So it's great to talk about the goals and
(04:14):
objectives and have this rigorous discipline, but there must be some
secret sauce to rethink that says that we find a way to attract,
you know, your your theme. Attract people that are capable of creating
work the world talks about. There is a method to the
madness. A lot of people think when
they think about creatives, advertising people, they think of,
(04:36):
you know, wacky people with, crazy hair running
around and being disorganized. With rethink,
in fact, it's it's quite the opposite. We are
very process driven. You know, we have all
these little rethinkisms that were created a long time ago, things
like crafts, which is an acronym, which maybe I can get into later,
(04:59):
go then grow. We have a relationship accelerator
where clients come in, before we even really start working
with them. And we talk we talk open,
and honestly about pet peeves, maybe ways
they were burned by a previous agency or a previous partner, and
we just say the thing that rethink we say the thing.
(05:23):
We're even having say the thing training, and it sets
the right conditions. When you follow all of
this, it just yields a lot of success. And also,
the agency leaders don't have to be in the weeds on
every little single thing. They can they can leave it
to many people because there's a playbook
(05:45):
or an only owner's manual. You just gotta follow the playbook,
and it makes life really easy. How do you find people with contrarian
minds? Because I would argue a young Aaron Starkman would have been very
rebellious to walk into an organization like Rethink
and be handed an owner's manual and process when you
wanted to come in there and say, one of the things that attracted to me
(06:07):
this industry is the freedom to be
free. When I was younger, I'd say 2 years in the business,
I knew in my guts what a good idea was,
and I knew how to how to get to it mostly.
Sometimes, I would go astray and I'd present something to
my creative director that kinda sucked. What the owner's manual
(06:30):
does in the case of, let's say, crafts and acronym,
It gives a young person and the person they're presenting to
a clear indicator what is good creativity.
Now what I intuitively knew as a young
creative is now in writing. This is what makes a good
idea. Crafts. So this is what I knew
(06:53):
intuitively, but now it's written with a checklist. And as
a young creative, I check it off. C, is it clear?
R, is your idea relevant? A, is it achievable?
Is it gonna shut down the brewery or cause their legal department to freak
out? Fresh. If it's done, it's
dead. True. Are you telling the truth about the product or
(07:15):
about the situation? And s, is
it shareable? The top creatives in the world
follow crafts, intuitively without knowing they're
following it. We're just we're giving this to the the
junior art directors out there and planners too, by the way. We
give this to all our planners. Our planners follow crafts.
(07:37):
It makes life easy. It really does. You know, you have your hand on
the rudder of the creative this creative agency called
Rethink. But I wanna rewind the clock because there's some
interesting things in our pre interview that really continue to have this
hypothesis without any empirical data, but sometimes
trauma leads to triumph. Sometimes a tough childhood that you
(08:00):
overcome gives you permission to go further
than anybody ever expected. And your yours and mine,
childhood was very similar in the sense that we had a dad who was an
alcoholic. So talk to me about a young
Aaron in that household, and what did you do to cope?
What did you do to escape? And what did you learn that you still have
(08:23):
with you today? So not a lot of people know this, or know about my
dad. Just very close friends. A few re thinkers.
My partners know it. But they also they also
know that my childhood makes me me.
There's 2 kinds of people in this world. There's people who had a good
childhood and there are those that are funny. I'm in the I'm in
(08:46):
the latter camp. Now when I was younger, listen, listen,
my dad was an alcoholic, and I I certainly not gonna get
into into into all of it. He was he was kind of like a happy
drunk, so there's that. I remember,
just a lot of yelling. And that was I think
that was stressful for me as a child. A lot of yell at my mom
(09:09):
yelling at my dad, things like that. And it's just, you know, the
volume of it. You need to just figure out a way
to shut it down or deal with it.
And my way, Tony, was, creativity.
I didn't know I had it. I didn't know I was creative.
(09:29):
But in the times when the house got a little loud, I
calmed myself down. I drew. I wrote little
stories. I I made little comic books, and
the noise, It's just like a baseball
player is just in the zone, you know, gets up to the plate
and just like the crowd noise and the booing. It's like you
(09:51):
suck Aaron Judge, all that all that
noise kinda goes away and you're locked in. And I I was locked
in on these little creative things, comic books, drawings, funny
stories, from a very young age.
That has stuck with me. That is why,
I'm very calm under pressure. If
(10:14):
we're facing a crisis, whether it's a loss of
business or COVID or there's a pitch
or we gotta crack something, my creativity takes
the noise goes out, and the darker things are, Tony,
the more creative and focused I
become. And that's always been with me. The other side that
(10:36):
I found quite intriguing because somebody that will lock themselves in
the comic books and drawing and stories, You're at camp. You're
called Gordy from Stand by Me because of your storytelling.
So you weren't you might go inside at times, but it sounded like you
also, the veneer that you put out, you were happy to bring a
drawbridge down and go out and meet people versus maybe bring in what what was
(10:59):
inside you. I think I'm one of those people that's kind of,
like, quiet and shy to, some people,
but a boisterous, loud, excitable
voice to others. And I'd find it, you know, like a
performer on on stage. I I I could find it.
When I present to clients scripts, or in a
(11:21):
pitch or wherever, I'm the best version of
myself. It's like the spotlight's on, and I love it. Like a stand
up comic, I I love it. At camp, yeah, I did
bake up stories. People asked me to, tell another's,
story, Gordy. My middle name happened to be Gordon, and not
everyone knew that. But there was that that
(11:43):
commonality with the stand by me character who told very great
stories like the pie eating contest. But I would all, I
would always do that. And I, from a a young
age, I remember I was, like, 13, 14, I was feeding
off the energy, the reactions of the
crowd. I was basically trying stuff out, seeing what
(12:06):
hit. And it's a rush.
It's a rush when, you know, you got something that,
people laugh at. And also it's a test it's a test of your
own creativity. Can you can you just make stuff up on the
fly? Can you just can you just roll with it and make stuff up
and keep the story going like improv it? And
(12:28):
often I did, and I didn't realize that was
different than other kids until they kept bugging me to tell
them stories. Tell another story, Gordy. You know, it's an interesting I I'm a
big fan of a certain type of comedy, which I call very
insight driven. You know, Seinfeld, the show about nothing, but it was about
everything. Bill Cosby, before he went sideways with his, you
(12:51):
know, talking about family, Richard Pryor talking about life and the
project. And I have to believe that inside every
great creative person is an ability to have
an insight where everybody else just looks at and takes it for granted.
Do you find that about yourself? Yeah. I do. Whether,
you know, I'm out for a beer with, you know, a few buddies
(13:14):
at work with my kids, insightful
things land. It's like, oh, I never thought of that
before. That's why Seinfeld and Curb Your Enthusiasm,
it's like, oh, it is right there
and no one's really talked about that before. You know,
in in a way, Curb Your Enthusiasm, Seinfeld, very, very crafts.
(13:38):
It's always clear, relevant, fresh, and shareable. You're
seeing that the clips go viral now. So, having great
insights, it's part of me and, I didn't
just develop those or it doesn't come
maybe totally naturally to me. When I was a kid, other
than, you know, a few camp people who wanted to hear stories, I didn't have
(14:00):
a lot of friends. So I was at home watching a lot of
TV. You know, I a lot, a lot of
movies, a lot of, funny things. And, I would
see insightful jokes. They'd resonate with me
and I have so much of that in my brain that like
now there's no room for people's birthdays and, like, you know, there's face blindness
(14:23):
because I have so much stuff in my head. I remember the exact
angle when something was funny, in Planes,
Trains, and Automobiles. I remember John Candy's chest
went on fire and the angle in which they both looked back. I
remember that. I remember that exact angle. You know, I haven't seen that in
in 15 years. I remember that angle, and I remember
(14:45):
things that that don't work. I remember there was a movie.
Again, we're talking when I was a kid. I still remember this, weirdly.
There was, a woman giving birth, but they only
had the the camera on her face. And
as a kid, I was like, no. No. No. Why is
the camera why are they only showing her face? This is not childbirth. There's gonna
(15:09):
be some lame joke coming. And then sure enough, they went to a wide shot,
and she was, like, opening up a jar of pickles or something. You know?
So I found the hits and the misses very
interesting. I still do, and it informs,
what I do and how I do it. You know, I I wanna move the
story to Zig. Mhmm. There's a lot of people that won't know the significance
(15:31):
of it, but it was an extraordinary agency. It's still
being recognized, you know, the ad of the century and such.
And you're a creative person there, but then you
moved into creative leadership. And you were very honest in telling me
that you really sucked in your early days. And I can
understand why in some ways. I mean, you know, you're a solo. You're a lead
(15:53):
singer without a band. I mean, you're doing comic books, and you're entertaining your friends.
You're not in an ensemble cast, and and you're presenting ideas to a
creative director. Next thing you know, they give you the game ball and say, we
actually want you to start leading. Share with the audience
how big that transition is. I mean, you can easily to get a
title, but to move from being, responsible for 1
(16:14):
to responsible for many, What was it like, and why do you feel you were
so horrible at it at the beginning? I didn't quite get the the
memo of of what you're supposed to do and what
changes. I thought I I thought I was prepared, and it turns
out I was grossly not. I
was a good creative. That's my fastball, coming up with
(16:36):
ideas. And then in this
industry, it's so strange. You're good at one thing,
coming up with ideas, writing headlines, and then you get
promoted to something totally different. I thought
creative directing was just like, oh, teams presenting to
me, their idea stinks. I have a better
(16:58):
idea. So I didn't bond I didn't bond with
my, my coworkers. I was a really young
young guy taking over. What I missed was, and what
I found out learning from Chris Staples, the key to it
all is really what Elspeth, Andy, and Lorraine did
at Zig. The key to it, and I missed it, is
(17:21):
set the conditions for success.
I did not do that. I didn't know that. You need to
spend, instead of just focusing on how to how to
make the idea in front of you better. The focus should
be, how do I set the
conditions for success? What do I do to make everybody
(17:43):
firing on on all cylinders, singing from the same
song sheet? How do I make them better, fast, and
often? And I didn't really figure that out until,
I don't know, 7 years ago. 7 years ago, I'd
rethink, a little bit before COVID. Great insights for people.
Set the conditions for success because when you've got a fastball
(18:06):
and people are, you know, coming after you and you know you can strike this
out, it's tough because, ultimately, your
the business and the economics of the business depends on
delivering something to the client that they're gonna buy and get excited
about. It is a great lesson in life. See, you talk about moving to
rethink, and let's talk about Chris and you and because,
(18:28):
again, he he was certainly another force in this
industry as the ones you mentioned before, Elspeth and,
Andy at Zig. What did you see from him that was different
that also gave you context that said, maybe I gotta learn a curve and a
change up? Chris and I couldn't be, any more different.
So I I describe him as, an a plus plus
(18:51):
creative director, and he'll tell you this. He was a b
minus writer or b minus creative, but
unbelievable creative director, and I'm the opposite.
I'm a good creative. The creative director thing was
not coming to me naturally at all. When he founded
Rethink with, his partners, Ian and Tom, he
(19:14):
had all these these things. The acronym, that's not
my acronym. I've been religious about it,
and I've been turning that I've been making everybody do it and
set it in been teaching it. But he has set up
a way to have this called the Rethink machine
just run smoothly. And then in terms of
(19:37):
of just all the process, he's so
organized. And I learned that in my first few years
at rethink. I co CD'd everything with Chris. We would work on Molson
together. I'd watch him do his thing, and it was, like,
very crystal clear. I want 7 ideas that do the x,
y, and z, and I want 5 ideas that do, you
(19:58):
know, another bunch of letters. And he'd be
very clear and concise that way, where my
fastball was, why don't you just have the lion
eat the guy by the car? You know? So I'm I'm
coming up with ideas, and I still do. But the thing I learned from
Chris is organization,
(20:21):
rigor, and truly setting conditions. I've come up
with my own. I've I've taken some from my last agency, and,
it is it is really buttoned down. And the
difference between me at Zig as a creative leader and
me at rethink as a creative leader is,
we have a well oiled machine. It context for the people listening that
(20:44):
aren't familiar with the advertising world. Very often, these
independent shops grow up, and then their only way
out is they sell to a multinational who gives the owners
a lot of money. And then over time, not always, but over time,
I would say many, the soul is removed,
tollbooth is replaces it, and it falls apart. But your Rethink
(21:06):
didn't do that. Rethink decided that they could turn
the game ball over to the next generation, which they've
done. And under your watch, you've grown it dramatically.
I'm curious how that what the dynamics like between the old
guard and the new guard. I mean, they must have an immense sense of pride
that they figured this mouse trap out as well and kept this
(21:29):
agency, this machine moving even faster, better, and more
efficiently than they than what they created. It must it must be a lot of
privacy. I think so. And, the founders of Rethink wrote
a book, called Rethinking the Business of Creativity. I think,
and we've talked about this, we've joked. I think the next the next book,
Tom Szczepanski, that I think he's gonna write it. We've joked about it, but
(21:52):
I think it may be an actual thing, to talk
about, succession and doing it a different
way and not having to
sell, to, have a fulfilling life, both
financially and spiritually. And do you ever hear from Chris and he send
you a note and and say, you know, that creative thing, but, you know, you
(22:14):
should've had the lion eating the guy in front of the car, or does he
just stay out of your kitchen? No. I'm I'm the I'm the one
that talks about the lion eating the guy in front of the car. Chris will
say, I noticed, I
noticed the culture check scores dipped from from 4.2
6 to 4.1.
(22:35):
Why do you think that I noticed it's in, like, are are
you happy at rethink or another question? And he goes to the data.
So we're very different that way. When
we return, Aaron and I delve deeper into his mental health
journey. Then we talk about other emotions,
both the fear and excitement to the future rethink, and, of
(22:58):
course, my 3 takeaways.
Hi. It's Tony Chapman from Chatter That Matters. The world's upside down,
and having peace of mind seems to be the exception versus the rule.
RBC Wealth Management is hoping to change that. They don't have a
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(23:20):
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You gotta be a sponge. You gotta ask questions, be hungry.
You know, you can't teach fire. You can't teach fire.
(23:41):
So I look for that and, that's actually more important than a a great
book is is just crazy fire. Wanted.
You're listening to chatter that matters with Tony Chapman presented
by RBC. Today in Chatter That Matters, I'm joined by one of the
world's top 100 creative people. His name's Aaron Startin.
He's also the chief creative officer behind Rethink, and both,
(24:04):
I'm proud to say, are Canadian.
Let's talk about you as an individual, and we'll wrap it up back with rethink.
But, you know, you were very open with when we were talking,
prior to this about your mental health struggles. When your mom
passed, you had a dream, which I wanna hear about, but I also wanna hear
about the fact that with all your success, Gord
(24:26):
e wasn't as happy as he should have been. So let's start first talking
about you've gotten to a place that very few people in the world in advertising
have reached, and yet you looked around and said, am I really happy there? Let's
start with that, and then we'll talk about your mom and the dream. So anxiety
is a is a is a real thing for me. And
people that know me from Zig probably
(24:49):
say, you know, Aaron is a real a
real introvert. It's the furthest thing from the truth.
I'm really I'm really an an extrovert,
but I suffer from anxiety. We've done, you know, these,
had group sessions, where, you know, we're with every
with everybody in the agency. It's like, take a step to the left if you're
(25:11):
like this or a step to the right if you're like this, and then you
you end up seeing, well, who's who's an introvert and who's an extrovert?
And I'm, like, way at the end on the right. So I'm clearly an
extrovert, but why is it I I shut down and sometimes
come off aloof to some people? It's
because I'm in my own head or I was, not
(25:32):
anymore. Just stressing about stupid things.
And that's anxiety and, I,
for the longest time, wanted to do something about it,
but never really did. You know, a little bit of research told me
taking some sort of anti anxiety medication can mess
with your creative process. You know, it could actually make
(25:56):
you a worse creative, and I I didn't wanna mess around with that.
Then finally, after my mom died, a few years ago,
like, the night after the night after her funeral, I
had the most vivid dream. I woke up in a cold sweat,
and it felt so real. And it was just
my mom talking to me saying, listen, you've gone
(26:19):
through many, many years, you
know, 45 years of your life living like this.
It's no way to live, honey. It's no way to go through life. I
don't care how successful you are. You
gotta be happy. Your kids gotta see you being happy.
Stop being tortured, and I was tortured. So
(26:42):
I aggressively pursued cognitive therapy.
I'm like, you know what? I'm just gonna deal with this. Like, that felt it
felt like more than a dream to me. I started taking
medication. It's one of the common ones.
And, you know, slowly but surely, like, over the course of, you
know, 4 to 6 weeks, I'm like, wait.
(27:04):
Is this how it was supposed to be? And, you know, the
combination of of cognitive therapy, all the stuff
that was in my head that was occupying
space, the worry, just the anxiety,
it it all went away, and it actually helped me be
(27:24):
way better at what I do. You know? This isn't an ADHD,
medicine. It's an anxiety it's an antianxiety medicine.
But what it's doing is it gets rid of the crap so you can
just focus. Focus on setting the conditions,
focus on the things that matter, focus on the client
(27:44):
conversations, focus on the presentation, focus on the edit,
focus on all of it. And, it's been a game changer.
I'm talking about it. Thank you for asking because,
I don't want I don't want people who are struggling with it or on the
fence, do I do something about it? Do I try therapy or whatever? I I
think do something about it. I really do. It's really changed my
(28:07):
life, and I'm like, I'm so excited about the
second part of my life now because the first first part was,
successful but not so happy. You know, it's interesting, and I I'm not sure I've
ever shared this, but my mom, the day after she died, came to me in
a dream that was so vivid, unlike any dream
I've ever had in my past. And she's eating a tuna fish sandwich, and
(28:30):
she hated fish because she was had to go to a convent when she was
young and Friday was fish night. And, like, during the depression, you can only imagine
there's probably a fish shed or something. And I said, you're
eating tuna fish? And she goes, yes. Up here, everything's
beautiful. And I and it was like her way of telling me I'm okay
now after living with my dad for so many years and taking on so
(28:52):
much stress. And it's interesting that, you know, you wonder if there really is
something to that their ability to just care so much that
they they find one moment one last moment in time.
Yeah. I wanna bring this back to you because you're
talking about the second half of your life, and you're so excited about it,
but you're also talking about retirement. To me, like,
(29:14):
the thing I fear the most in life is retirement. I planned it on
my on my deathbed to have a microphone in front of me. I can't imagine
not doing what I'm doing. So why why would you even consider
retirement with where you've taken this agency and and where you're gonna take it in
the next 5 years? My plan is to take it, to a a
special place, an even more special place, and I need to do that
(29:37):
to be able to retire financially. I
need to. I don't necessarily want to retire.
I do love the idea of nothingness. I've
learned this from Chris. He's impacted me as not
just a a mentor, but as a as a
man. Chris says, turn off your phone when you're on
(29:59):
vacation. Put it in the safe. I learned that.
I've learned that from him. And, you know, you
work hard, you embrace the nothingness. I do. I'm not
one to walk or I don't wanna walk around on the beaches of
Negril, like, stressed out on a on a work call.
I want to leave that with with my partners and
(30:22):
have trust. It's like that later in life. 49 now. In
6 years, you know what I want? I want that. And then if I
get bored, I'll do something else, but I want that.
And to get that, I have a goal in mind for the agency.
It's to get to a certain point and to be,
creatively better than we've ever been. I'm setting this this
(30:44):
is a BHAG. We're hired 55. That
that seems unrealistic. We're not selling the company.
Not gonna get I'm not gonna get a big paycheck from, Omnicom
or whatever. So with that in mind, what do we have to
do to to get me to retire at 55? What do I have
to do? It's really just following what we've done
(31:07):
before. We've totally nailed our BHAG in the past,
and I'll just relate it to a workman for a second. And this is why
I do think it's possible. We've had success at it.
Right before COVID, we said we wanna do something that has
never been done before. We wanna win in Canada, we wanna win agency of the
year. We want to win digital, agency of the year. We
(31:29):
want to win design agency of the year. That that trifecta has
never been done. We wrote it down. We set the conditions in
the process to make that happen. At the time, we were
the 5th best agency in Canada. Leo Burnett was number 1. Maybe
Cassette was right right there with him. We went out
and we did it. A year and a half later, we won all 3.
(31:51):
And ever every year since then, we've won agency of the
year in Canada every year because we're just we're just going
after the BHAG. And then to where we started
this podcast, Tony, I'm all it's all coming back to this question about
retirement and goals. Where we started this
podcast, you asked about, like, the recent, success
(32:13):
of Rethink internationally. It's not just a Canada thing anymore. We were
just awarded independent agency of the
year at the last 3 big, shows in the world. The
Andes, the one show, and the Cleos where Don Draper collected
awards. Our new BHAG is to become international
(32:34):
independent agency of the year, and we're doing it because we set new
conditions. So because we've had a taste of
of nailing our goals, following process,
I'm hoping that I can do that with my own life. So I set
the BHAG of retiring when I'm 55, which means,
you know, we have to do even better than than what we've done.
(32:56):
And while at the same time, just having fun as a company. Talk to
me about Canada. I know that you're international now, but you
talk about setting the conditions for success. What do we need to do as
a country to set the conditions for success? I'd
like to pressure test crafts as a country,
for organizations and leadership across this nation,
(33:19):
to our leaders in government, in
business, and thought leaders, the c, be clear.
Be very clear about about what you're doing and where you're going,
where you wanna head. Be relevant. Is what
you're doing relevant to the people in your
company, the people who vote, the people who pay taxes?
(33:42):
Is it gonna is it gonna be relevant in their lives? Is it gonna be
achievable? Can we do this? You can't just say let's let's,
make marmalade out of ice cubes. It has to be achievable.
Is it fresh? So to government
and business leaders, new ideas are
good. Out of the box, something that hasn't been done before,
(34:05):
that is that is the way forward. Be
true. Don't lie to people. Give them the straight goods.
People under you, people voting for you, every Canadian just
level with them. And then shareable. You know
what? You want your ideas to spread and
take hold in a good way. And ideally, other con other
(34:27):
countries rip us off. They're looking at what we're
doing here, and, let's share that
let's share that with the rest of the world. I'm gonna give you the first
standing ovation I've ever given a chat at the.
I think that is brilliant, and I'm gonna just share that clip alone.
(34:48):
I always wrap up with my 3 takeaways, and I this
interview went completely different than we thought it was originally, but I think it's
exceptional. First one is the lesson in life for all of us
is set to conditions for success. Have a
big dream. Have ambition. Look at that
highest rung you can possibly look at, but set the conditions so you can get
(35:10):
on that first rung and keep climbing. And the fact that this great
creative agency continues to come back to words like conditions and
process, I think, is one of the most remarkable lessons I've
learned. The second is, it is right there.
The ability to have people leave their screens, leave what
they think is status quo, and look around with
(35:32):
curiosity, and intent, and passion, and
humility, and find out what's right there, I think is such
a powerful lesson in life, because that right there can take
you anywhere. And then I guess the final one is
what you did through the dream from your mom, through your therapy,
through the medicine you're taking, you got out of your own head. And
(35:56):
I think so often, I just interviewed Nick Taylor last night, and he said I
only could become a better golfer when I took all of this stuff
out of my head that was hurting me. My the intensity, the the need
to succeed, every shot had to be a perfect shot, and all the anxiety that
comes with being an elite athlete, or in your case, an elite
one in advertising, and to remove that and to take out that
(36:18):
noise and to be able to focus on what really
matters. Those, my friend, are 3 very powerful
lessons in life, and I'm, I'm so appreciative that you spent the time with
me and chatted it matters. Thank you for taking the time to, chat with me.
This was, this was funny enough. It was therapeutic.
I really I really like talking about this and being honest and,
(36:42):
just saying the thing. I'm gonna try to be this transparent, more
often. Thanks for getting it out of me, Tony.
Chatter that matters has been a presentation of RBC. It's
Tony Chapman. Thanks for listening. Let's chat soon.
Years ago, now I'm dating myself, but before your phone allowed you to
carry thousands of pictures in your pocket, some people
would leave their house with a plastic wallet that unfolded like a waterfall
into several compartments, and each one would house a photograph.
And each of these photographs meant something to the individual. They were markers.
They might have marked a relationship, a moment in time, a memory they
(00:27):
wanted to share, a story they wanted to enhance with imagery. Somebody that used to
be in their life is no longer there. And in many
ways, chatter that matters is an audio version of a plastic
wallet. I interview guests to learn about their journey, the choices they make, the
moments that matter. But instead of pictures, we rely on conversations,
and my guest's ability to animate their life, their trauma, their triumphs,
(00:49):
their challenges, their choices, the unexpected and unexpected.
And the lessons they have learned, I hope can help the rest of us get
to where we need 1 and deserve to go. My guest
today is no exception. He didn't have the greatest childhood. He made a
career defining decisions. After years invested in
studying psychology, with aspirations possibly to become a
(01:11):
lawyer, He's had to fill some of the biggest shoes in his
industry, but he found a way to realize enormous career success,
only at times to find himself not happy. And I think that's a theme that
we've seen time and time again, that sometimes what we chase when we
get there and look around, we go, is this really where I wanna be? I
had gotten fired three times. I also started saying,
(01:33):
Beth, maybe I'm not any good. You know, my advice for for anybody
breaking into the industry is if you get canned, it could be the
best thing that ever happens to you. It kind of made me appreciate
being in the business. Don't take anything for granted. You also get
a little bit of a chip on your shoulder. You try harder
because you don't want to get canned again. And today at the pinnacle of
(01:56):
his career, he's also lit a fuse that's counting down to his
retirement. His name's Aaron Startin. He's much too young
to retire. And I hope he offers you some powerful
insights into his life and ideally ours, and
that the time we spend together is time well spent.
(02:20):
This is chatter that matters with Tony Chapman
Aaron Starkman, welcome to Chatter That Matters. Well, thanks for having me, Tony.
Listen, I'm a huge fan of everything that you do and that your
agency puts out. And there's really no exaggeration in saying that this
made in Canada shop is among the best, if not
(02:43):
the best in the world. Just explain to my listeners that in
terms of the advertising world, what it means to be recognized in
that company and more often than not, be at the top of that company. We
are all singing from the same song sheet. I think that's
how we're doing it, and thank you for that compliment, Tony.
Whether you're in the discipline of account
(03:06):
services or accounting even in design,
we are all, following the same playbook, and that's
everything. It really is. So, every
person in the company is clear on goals
and every single person is clear on how to get
there. When you're clear about your ambitions
(03:30):
and everyone understands that the goal,
is effectiveness on your clients' brands. But
the strategy to get there is bold creativity.
When everybody gets that as a strategy for your client
and for your own agency success, it
it yields to good results, and we're finding that the last few years. But we're
(03:51):
not talking about manufacturing automobiles in an assembly
line or even inventing the next chip. We're talking about something
very intangible, which is advertising. It's baked in insights,
ideas, a lot of salesmanship has to go in it because you have
to you have to find courageous clients with the courage to try
different things. So it's great to talk about the goals and
(04:14):
objectives and have this rigorous discipline, but there must be some
secret sauce to rethink that says that we find a way to attract,
you know, your your theme. Attract people that are capable of creating
work the world talks about. There is a method to the
madness. A lot of people think when
they think about creatives, advertising people, they think of,
(04:36):
you know, wacky people with, crazy hair running
around and being disorganized. With rethink,
in fact, it's it's quite the opposite. We are
very process driven. You know, we have all
these little rethinkisms that were created a long time ago, things
like crafts, which is an acronym, which maybe I can get into later,
(04:59):
go then grow. We have a relationship accelerator
where clients come in, before we even really start working
with them. And we talk we talk open,
and honestly about pet peeves, maybe ways
they were burned by a previous agency or a previous partner, and
we just say the thing that rethink we say the thing.
(05:23):
We're even having say the thing training, and it sets
the right conditions. When you follow all of
this, it just yields a lot of success. And also,
the agency leaders don't have to be in the weeds on
every little single thing. They can they can leave it
to many people because there's a playbook
(05:45):
or an only owner's manual. You just gotta follow the playbook,
and it makes life really easy. How do you find people with contrarian
minds? Because I would argue a young Aaron Starkman would have been very
rebellious to walk into an organization like Rethink
and be handed an owner's manual and process when you
wanted to come in there and say, one of the things that attracted to me
(06:07):
this industry is the freedom to be
free. When I was younger, I'd say 2 years in the business,
I knew in my guts what a good idea was,
and I knew how to how to get to it mostly.
Sometimes, I would go astray and I'd present something to
my creative director that kinda sucked. What the owner's manual
(06:30):
does in the case of, let's say, crafts and acronym,
It gives a young person and the person they're presenting to
a clear indicator what is good creativity.
Now what I intuitively knew as a young
creative is now in writing. This is what makes a good
idea. Crafts. So this is what I knew
(06:53):
intuitively, but now it's written with a checklist. And as
a young creative, I check it off. C, is it clear?
R, is your idea relevant? A, is it achievable?
Is it gonna shut down the brewery or cause their legal department to freak
out? Fresh. If it's done, it's
dead. True. Are you telling the truth about the product or
(07:15):
about the situation? And s, is
it shareable? The top creatives in the world
follow crafts, intuitively without knowing they're
following it. We're just we're giving this to the the
junior art directors out there and planners too, by the way. We
give this to all our planners. Our planners follow crafts.
(07:37):
It makes life easy. It really does. You know, you have your hand on
the rudder of the creative this creative agency called
Rethink. But I wanna rewind the clock because there's some
interesting things in our pre interview that really continue to have this
hypothesis without any empirical data, but sometimes
trauma leads to triumph. Sometimes a tough childhood that you
(08:00):
overcome gives you permission to go further
than anybody ever expected. And your yours and mine,
childhood was very similar in the sense that we had a dad who was an
alcoholic. So talk to me about a young
Aaron in that household, and what did you do to cope?
What did you do to escape? And what did you learn that you still have
(08:23):
with you today? So not a lot of people know this, or know about my
dad. Just very close friends. A few re thinkers.
My partners know it. But they also they also
know that my childhood makes me me.
There's 2 kinds of people in this world. There's people who had a good
childhood and there are those that are funny. I'm in the I'm in
(08:46):
the latter camp. Now when I was younger, listen, listen,
my dad was an alcoholic, and I I certainly not gonna get
into into into all of it. He was he was kind of like a happy
drunk, so there's that. I remember,
just a lot of yelling. And that was I think
that was stressful for me as a child. A lot of yell at my mom
(09:09):
yelling at my dad, things like that. And it's just, you know, the
volume of it. You need to just figure out a way
to shut it down or deal with it.
And my way, Tony, was, creativity.
I didn't know I had it. I didn't know I was creative.
(09:29):
But in the times when the house got a little loud, I
calmed myself down. I drew. I wrote little
stories. I I made little comic books, and
the noise, It's just like a baseball
player is just in the zone, you know, gets up to the plate
and just like the crowd noise and the booing. It's like you
(09:51):
suck Aaron Judge, all that all that
noise kinda goes away and you're locked in. And I I was locked
in on these little creative things, comic books, drawings, funny
stories, from a very young age.
That has stuck with me. That is why,
I'm very calm under pressure. If
(10:14):
we're facing a crisis, whether it's a loss of
business or COVID or there's a pitch
or we gotta crack something, my creativity takes
the noise goes out, and the darker things are, Tony,
the more creative and focused I
become. And that's always been with me. The other side that
(10:36):
I found quite intriguing because somebody that will lock themselves in
the comic books and drawing and stories, You're at camp. You're
called Gordy from Stand by Me because of your storytelling.
So you weren't you might go inside at times, but it sounded like you
also, the veneer that you put out, you were happy to bring a
drawbridge down and go out and meet people versus maybe bring in what what was
(10:59):
inside you. I think I'm one of those people that's kind of,
like, quiet and shy to, some people,
but a boisterous, loud, excitable
voice to others. And I'd find it, you know, like a
performer on on stage. I I I could find it.
When I present to clients scripts, or in a
(11:21):
pitch or wherever, I'm the best version of
myself. It's like the spotlight's on, and I love it. Like a stand
up comic, I I love it. At camp, yeah, I did
bake up stories. People asked me to, tell another's,
story, Gordy. My middle name happened to be Gordon, and not
everyone knew that. But there was that that
(11:43):
commonality with the stand by me character who told very great
stories like the pie eating contest. But I would all, I
would always do that. And I, from a a young
age, I remember I was, like, 13, 14, I was feeding
off the energy, the reactions of the
crowd. I was basically trying stuff out, seeing what
(12:06):
hit. And it's a rush.
It's a rush when, you know, you got something that,
people laugh at. And also it's a test it's a test of your
own creativity. Can you can you just make stuff up on the
fly? Can you just can you just roll with it and make stuff up
and keep the story going like improv it? And
(12:28):
often I did, and I didn't realize that was
different than other kids until they kept bugging me to tell
them stories. Tell another story, Gordy. You know, it's an interesting I I'm a
big fan of a certain type of comedy, which I call very
insight driven. You know, Seinfeld, the show about nothing, but it was about
everything. Bill Cosby, before he went sideways with his, you
(12:51):
know, talking about family, Richard Pryor talking about life and the
project. And I have to believe that inside every
great creative person is an ability to have
an insight where everybody else just looks at and takes it for granted.
Do you find that about yourself? Yeah. I do. Whether,
you know, I'm out for a beer with, you know, a few buddies
(13:14):
at work with my kids, insightful
things land. It's like, oh, I never thought of that
before. That's why Seinfeld and Curb Your Enthusiasm,
it's like, oh, it is right there
and no one's really talked about that before. You know,
in in a way, Curb Your Enthusiasm, Seinfeld, very, very crafts.
(13:38):
It's always clear, relevant, fresh, and shareable. You're
seeing that the clips go viral now. So, having great
insights, it's part of me and, I didn't
just develop those or it doesn't come
maybe totally naturally to me. When I was a kid, other
than, you know, a few camp people who wanted to hear stories, I didn't have
(14:00):
a lot of friends. So I was at home watching a lot of
TV. You know, I a lot, a lot of
movies, a lot of, funny things. And, I would
see insightful jokes. They'd resonate with me
and I have so much of that in my brain that like
now there's no room for people's birthdays and, like, you know, there's face blindness
(14:23):
because I have so much stuff in my head. I remember the exact
angle when something was funny, in Planes,
Trains, and Automobiles. I remember John Candy's chest
went on fire and the angle in which they both looked back. I
remember that. I remember that exact angle. You know, I haven't seen that in
in 15 years. I remember that angle, and I remember
(14:45):
things that that don't work. I remember there was a movie.
Again, we're talking when I was a kid. I still remember this, weirdly.
There was, a woman giving birth, but they only
had the the camera on her face. And
as a kid, I was like, no. No. No. Why is
the camera why are they only showing her face? This is not childbirth. There's gonna
(15:09):
be some lame joke coming. And then sure enough, they went to a wide shot,
and she was, like, opening up a jar of pickles or something. You know?
So I found the hits and the misses very
interesting. I still do, and it informs,
what I do and how I do it. You know, I I wanna move the
story to Zig. Mhmm. There's a lot of people that won't know the significance
(15:31):
of it, but it was an extraordinary agency. It's still
being recognized, you know, the ad of the century and such.
And you're a creative person there, but then you
moved into creative leadership. And you were very honest in telling me
that you really sucked in your early days. And I can
understand why in some ways. I mean, you know, you're a solo. You're a lead
(15:53):
singer without a band. I mean, you're doing comic books, and you're entertaining your friends.
You're not in an ensemble cast, and and you're presenting ideas to a
creative director. Next thing you know, they give you the game ball and say, we
actually want you to start leading. Share with the audience
how big that transition is. I mean, you can easily to get a
title, but to move from being, responsible for 1
(16:14):
to responsible for many, What was it like, and why do you feel you were
so horrible at it at the beginning? I didn't quite get the the
memo of of what you're supposed to do and what
changes. I thought I I thought I was prepared, and it turns
out I was grossly not. I
was a good creative. That's my fastball, coming up with
(16:36):
ideas. And then in this
industry, it's so strange. You're good at one thing,
coming up with ideas, writing headlines, and then you get
promoted to something totally different. I thought
creative directing was just like, oh, teams presenting to
me, their idea stinks. I have a better
(16:58):
idea. So I didn't bond I didn't bond with
my, my coworkers. I was a really young
young guy taking over. What I missed was, and what
I found out learning from Chris Staples, the key to it
all is really what Elspeth, Andy, and Lorraine did
at Zig. The key to it, and I missed it, is
(17:21):
set the conditions for success.
I did not do that. I didn't know that. You need to
spend, instead of just focusing on how to how to
make the idea in front of you better. The focus should
be, how do I set the
conditions for success? What do I do to make everybody
(17:43):
firing on on all cylinders, singing from the same
song sheet? How do I make them better, fast, and
often? And I didn't really figure that out until,
I don't know, 7 years ago. 7 years ago, I'd
rethink, a little bit before COVID. Great insights for people.
Set the conditions for success because when you've got a fastball
(18:06):
and people are, you know, coming after you and you know you can strike this
out, it's tough because, ultimately, your
the business and the economics of the business depends on
delivering something to the client that they're gonna buy and get excited
about. It is a great lesson in life. See, you talk about moving to
rethink, and let's talk about Chris and you and because,
(18:28):
again, he he was certainly another force in this
industry as the ones you mentioned before, Elspeth and,
Andy at Zig. What did you see from him that was different
that also gave you context that said, maybe I gotta learn a curve and a
change up? Chris and I couldn't be, any more different.
So I I describe him as, an a plus plus
(18:51):
creative director, and he'll tell you this. He was a b
minus writer or b minus creative, but
unbelievable creative director, and I'm the opposite.
I'm a good creative. The creative director thing was
not coming to me naturally at all. When he founded
Rethink with, his partners, Ian and Tom, he
(19:14):
had all these these things. The acronym, that's not
my acronym. I've been religious about it,
and I've been turning that I've been making everybody do it and
set it in been teaching it. But he has set up
a way to have this called the Rethink machine
just run smoothly. And then in terms of
(19:37):
of just all the process, he's so
organized. And I learned that in my first few years
at rethink. I co CD'd everything with Chris. We would work on Molson
together. I'd watch him do his thing, and it was, like,
very crystal clear. I want 7 ideas that do the x,
y, and z, and I want 5 ideas that do, you
(19:58):
know, another bunch of letters. And he'd be
very clear and concise that way, where my
fastball was, why don't you just have the lion
eat the guy by the car? You know? So I'm I'm
coming up with ideas, and I still do. But the thing I learned from
Chris is organization,
(20:21):
rigor, and truly setting conditions. I've come up
with my own. I've I've taken some from my last agency, and,
it is it is really buttoned down. And the
difference between me at Zig as a creative leader and
me at rethink as a creative leader is,
we have a well oiled machine. It context for the people listening that
(20:44):
aren't familiar with the advertising world. Very often, these
independent shops grow up, and then their only way
out is they sell to a multinational who gives the owners
a lot of money. And then over time, not always, but over time,
I would say many, the soul is removed,
tollbooth is replaces it, and it falls apart. But your Rethink
(21:06):
didn't do that. Rethink decided that they could turn
the game ball over to the next generation, which they've
done. And under your watch, you've grown it dramatically.
I'm curious how that what the dynamics like between the old
guard and the new guard. I mean, they must have an immense sense of pride
that they figured this mouse trap out as well and kept this
(21:29):
agency, this machine moving even faster, better, and more
efficiently than they than what they created. It must it must be a lot of
privacy. I think so. And, the founders of Rethink wrote
a book, called Rethinking the Business of Creativity. I think,
and we've talked about this, we've joked. I think the next the next book,
Tom Szczepanski, that I think he's gonna write it. We've joked about it, but
(21:52):
I think it may be an actual thing, to talk
about, succession and doing it a different
way and not having to
sell, to, have a fulfilling life, both
financially and spiritually. And do you ever hear from Chris and he send
you a note and and say, you know, that creative thing, but, you know, you
(22:14):
should've had the lion eating the guy in front of the car, or does he
just stay out of your kitchen? No. I'm I'm the I'm the one
that talks about the lion eating the guy in front of the car. Chris will
say, I noticed, I
noticed the culture check scores dipped from from 4.2
6 to 4.1.
(22:35):
Why do you think that I noticed it's in, like, are are
you happy at rethink or another question? And he goes to the data.
So we're very different that way. When
we return, Aaron and I delve deeper into his mental health
journey. Then we talk about other emotions,
both the fear and excitement to the future rethink, and, of
(22:58):
course, my 3 takeaways.
Hi. It's Tony Chapman from Chatter That Matters. The world's upside down,
and having peace of mind seems to be the exception versus the rule.
RBC Wealth Management is hoping to change that. They don't have a
crystal ball, but they do have a team of experts dedicated to working with
(23:20):
you to preserve and grow your wealth and help you manage risk so that you
can enjoy the rewards of your labor. Your peace of mind and
financial health matters to RBC.
You gotta be a sponge. You gotta ask questions, be hungry.
You know, you can't teach fire. You can't teach fire.
(23:41):
So I look for that and, that's actually more important than a a great
book is is just crazy fire. Wanted.
You're listening to chatter that matters with Tony Chapman presented
by RBC. Today in Chatter That Matters, I'm joined by one of the
world's top 100 creative people. His name's Aaron Startin.
He's also the chief creative officer behind Rethink, and both,
(24:04):
I'm proud to say, are Canadian.
Let's talk about you as an individual, and we'll wrap it up back with rethink.
But, you know, you were very open with when we were talking,
prior to this about your mental health struggles. When your mom
passed, you had a dream, which I wanna hear about, but I also wanna hear
about the fact that with all your success, Gord
(24:26):
e wasn't as happy as he should have been. So let's start first talking
about you've gotten to a place that very few people in the world in advertising
have reached, and yet you looked around and said, am I really happy there? Let's
start with that, and then we'll talk about your mom and the dream. So anxiety
is a is a is a real thing for me. And
people that know me from Zig probably
(24:49):
say, you know, Aaron is a real a
real introvert. It's the furthest thing from the truth.
I'm really I'm really an an extrovert,
but I suffer from anxiety. We've done, you know, these,
had group sessions, where, you know, we're with every
with everybody in the agency. It's like, take a step to the left if you're
(25:11):
like this or a step to the right if you're like this, and then you
you end up seeing, well, who's who's an introvert and who's an extrovert?
And I'm, like, way at the end on the right. So I'm clearly an
extrovert, but why is it I I shut down and sometimes
come off aloof to some people? It's
because I'm in my own head or I was, not
(25:32):
anymore. Just stressing about stupid things.
And that's anxiety and, I,
for the longest time, wanted to do something about it,
but never really did. You know, a little bit of research told me
taking some sort of anti anxiety medication can mess
with your creative process. You know, it could actually make
(25:56):
you a worse creative, and I I didn't wanna mess around with that.
Then finally, after my mom died, a few years ago,
like, the night after the night after her funeral, I
had the most vivid dream. I woke up in a cold sweat,
and it felt so real. And it was just
my mom talking to me saying, listen, you've gone
(26:19):
through many, many years, you
know, 45 years of your life living like this.
It's no way to live, honey. It's no way to go through life. I
don't care how successful you are. You
gotta be happy. Your kids gotta see you being happy.
Stop being tortured, and I was tortured. So
(26:42):
I aggressively pursued cognitive therapy.
I'm like, you know what? I'm just gonna deal with this. Like, that felt it
felt like more than a dream to me. I started taking
medication. It's one of the common ones.
And, you know, slowly but surely, like, over the course of, you
know, 4 to 6 weeks, I'm like, wait.
(27:04):
Is this how it was supposed to be? And, you know, the
combination of of cognitive therapy, all the stuff
that was in my head that was occupying
space, the worry, just the anxiety,
it it all went away, and it actually helped me be
(27:24):
way better at what I do. You know? This isn't an ADHD,
medicine. It's an anxiety it's an antianxiety medicine.
But what it's doing is it gets rid of the crap so you can
just focus. Focus on setting the conditions,
focus on the things that matter, focus on the client
(27:44):
conversations, focus on the presentation, focus on the edit,
focus on all of it. And, it's been a game changer.
I'm talking about it. Thank you for asking because,
I don't want I don't want people who are struggling with it or on the
fence, do I do something about it? Do I try therapy or whatever? I I
think do something about it. I really do. It's really changed my
(28:07):
life, and I'm like, I'm so excited about the
second part of my life now because the first first part was,
successful but not so happy. You know, it's interesting, and I I'm not sure I've
ever shared this, but my mom, the day after she died, came to me in
a dream that was so vivid, unlike any dream
I've ever had in my past. And she's eating a tuna fish sandwich, and
(28:30):
she hated fish because she was had to go to a convent when she was
young and Friday was fish night. And, like, during the depression, you can only imagine
there's probably a fish shed or something. And I said, you're
eating tuna fish? And she goes, yes. Up here, everything's
beautiful. And I and it was like her way of telling me I'm okay
now after living with my dad for so many years and taking on so
(28:52):
much stress. And it's interesting that, you know, you wonder if there really is
something to that their ability to just care so much that
they they find one moment one last moment in time.
Yeah. I wanna bring this back to you because you're
talking about the second half of your life, and you're so excited about it,
but you're also talking about retirement. To me, like,
(29:14):
the thing I fear the most in life is retirement. I planned it on
my on my deathbed to have a microphone in front of me. I can't imagine
not doing what I'm doing. So why why would you even consider
retirement with where you've taken this agency and and where you're gonna take it in
the next 5 years? My plan is to take it, to a a
special place, an even more special place, and I need to do that
(29:37):
to be able to retire financially. I
need to. I don't necessarily want to retire.
I do love the idea of nothingness. I've
learned this from Chris. He's impacted me as not
just a a mentor, but as a as a
man. Chris says, turn off your phone when you're on
(29:59):
vacation. Put it in the safe. I learned that.
I've learned that from him. And, you know, you
work hard, you embrace the nothingness. I do. I'm not
one to walk or I don't wanna walk around on the beaches of
Negril, like, stressed out on a on a work call.
I want to leave that with with my partners and
(30:22):
have trust. It's like that later in life. 49 now. In
6 years, you know what I want? I want that. And then if I
get bored, I'll do something else, but I want that.
And to get that, I have a goal in mind for the agency.
It's to get to a certain point and to be,
creatively better than we've ever been. I'm setting this this
(30:44):
is a BHAG. We're hired 55. That
that seems unrealistic. We're not selling the company.
Not gonna get I'm not gonna get a big paycheck from, Omnicom
or whatever. So with that in mind, what do we have to
do to to get me to retire at 55? What do I have
to do? It's really just following what we've done
(31:07):
before. We've totally nailed our BHAG in the past,
and I'll just relate it to a workman for a second. And this is why
I do think it's possible. We've had success at it.
Right before COVID, we said we wanna do something that has
never been done before. We wanna win in Canada, we wanna win agency of the
year. We want to win digital, agency of the year. We
(31:29):
want to win design agency of the year. That that trifecta has
never been done. We wrote it down. We set the conditions in
the process to make that happen. At the time, we were
the 5th best agency in Canada. Leo Burnett was number 1. Maybe
Cassette was right right there with him. We went out
and we did it. A year and a half later, we won all 3.
(31:51):
And ever every year since then, we've won agency of the
year in Canada every year because we're just we're just going
after the BHAG. And then to where we started
this podcast, Tony, I'm all it's all coming back to this question about
retirement and goals. Where we started this
podcast, you asked about, like, the recent, success
(32:13):
of Rethink internationally. It's not just a Canada thing anymore. We were
just awarded independent agency of the
year at the last 3 big, shows in the world. The
Andes, the one show, and the Cleos where Don Draper collected
awards. Our new BHAG is to become international
(32:34):
independent agency of the year, and we're doing it because we set new
conditions. So because we've had a taste of
of nailing our goals, following process,
I'm hoping that I can do that with my own life. So I set
the BHAG of retiring when I'm 55, which means,
you know, we have to do even better than than what we've done.
(32:56):
And while at the same time, just having fun as a company. Talk to
me about Canada. I know that you're international now, but you
talk about setting the conditions for success. What do we need to do as
a country to set the conditions for success? I'd
like to pressure test crafts as a country,
for organizations and leadership across this nation,
(33:19):
to our leaders in government, in
business, and thought leaders, the c, be clear.
Be very clear about about what you're doing and where you're going,
where you wanna head. Be relevant. Is what
you're doing relevant to the people in your
company, the people who vote, the people who pay taxes?
(33:42):
Is it gonna is it gonna be relevant in their lives? Is it gonna be
achievable? Can we do this? You can't just say let's let's,
make marmalade out of ice cubes. It has to be achievable.
Is it fresh? So to government
and business leaders, new ideas are
good. Out of the box, something that hasn't been done before,
(34:05):
that is that is the way forward. Be
true. Don't lie to people. Give them the straight goods.
People under you, people voting for you, every Canadian just
level with them. And then shareable. You know
what? You want your ideas to spread and
take hold in a good way. And ideally, other con other
(34:27):
countries rip us off. They're looking at what we're
doing here, and, let's share that
let's share that with the rest of the world. I'm gonna give you the first
standing ovation I've ever given a chat at the.
I think that is brilliant, and I'm gonna just share that clip alone.
(34:48):
I always wrap up with my 3 takeaways, and I this
interview went completely different than we thought it was originally, but I think it's
exceptional. First one is the lesson in life for all of us
is set to conditions for success. Have a
big dream. Have ambition. Look at that
highest rung you can possibly look at, but set the conditions so you can get
(35:10):
on that first rung and keep climbing. And the fact that this great
creative agency continues to come back to words like conditions and
process, I think, is one of the most remarkable lessons I've
learned. The second is, it is right there.
The ability to have people leave their screens, leave what
they think is status quo, and look around with
(35:32):
curiosity, and intent, and passion, and
humility, and find out what's right there, I think is such
a powerful lesson in life, because that right there can take
you anywhere. And then I guess the final one is
what you did through the dream from your mom, through your therapy,
through the medicine you're taking, you got out of your own head. And
(35:56):
I think so often, I just interviewed Nick Taylor last night, and he said I
only could become a better golfer when I took all of this stuff
out of my head that was hurting me. My the intensity, the the need
to succeed, every shot had to be a perfect shot, and all the anxiety that
comes with being an elite athlete, or in your case, an elite
one in advertising, and to remove that and to take out that
(36:18):
noise and to be able to focus on what really
matters. Those, my friend, are 3 very powerful
lessons in life, and I'm, I'm so appreciative that you spent the time with
me and chatted it matters. Thank you for taking the time to, chat with me.
This was, this was funny enough. It was therapeutic.
I really I really like talking about this and being honest and,
(36:42):
just saying the thing. I'm gonna try to be this transparent, more
often. Thanks for getting it out of me, Tony.
Chatter that matters has been a presentation of RBC. It's
Tony Chapman. Thanks for listening. Let's chat soon.
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