January 23, 2025 • 42 mins
Canada, it’s time to reclaim the Canadian Dream. In this special episode of Chatter That Matters, I bring together three of Canada's brightest: Arlene Dickinson, Jon Love C.M., and Dany Assaf. Recorded live at .css-j9qmi7{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-direction:row;-ms-flex-direction:row;flex-direction:row;font-weight:700;margin-bottom:1rem;margin-top:2.8rem;width:100%;-webkit-box-pack:start;-ms-flex-pack:start;-webkit-justify-content:start;justify-content:start;padding-left:5rem;}@media only screen and (max-width: 599px){.css-j9qmi7{padding-left:0;-webkit-box-pack:center;-ms-flex-pack:center;-webkit-justify-content:center;justify-content:center;}}.css-j9qmi7 svg{fill:#27292D;}.css-j9qmi7 .eagfbvw0{-webkit-align-items:center;-webkit-box-align:center;-ms-flex-align:center;align-items:center;color:#27292D;}Mark as PlayedTranscript
Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Welcome to the special edition of Chatter That Matters. What I have in store for
you are 3 of the smartest Canadians that I know, Arlene
Dickinson, Jon Love, and Dany Asap. I had the
honor to interview them in front of an audience at Excellence Canada's
40th anniversary. And to kick off the morning, I
delivered a short keynote. Paraphrase it, I talked about my
(00:26):
pride being a Canadian. And then I took the audience back to
1967 when I was a young boy, and I got to
celebrate Canada's 100th birthday. And what a year. He had
a caravan, a centennial train, and, of course, Expo
67 in my hometown of Montreal. What an engineering feat.
Built 3 man made islands, tumbled into the Saint Lawrence to extend our subway
(00:48):
or what we called the metro. We built a monorail. Every country
put their best foot forward, but nothing compared to Canada and the
provinces. We demonstrated. Canada stood for
and why we matter. And I wondered if it was just my rose
colored glasses, that moment in time, or did
Canada really stand for something? Well, for 2 years, we've been flying this
(01:11):
new flag called the Maplelet. Pearson was our prime minister.
We also had one of the highest per capita incomes. We had a growing
middle class. The Canadian dream was within arms reach of desire.
Immigrants that would come to this country could do whatever they wanted to do because
of circumstances existed. Infrastructure, we built a
TransCanada highway in 12 years, the Saint Lawrence Seaway in 5 years,
(01:34):
and our social conscious, we said to the world that are on
watch. We could bring universal health care and the Canadian pension
plan unemployment insurance to our people. We set
up such conditions for success that we continue to roar as a
country. Blackberry, Nortel, Couche Tard, Cirque du Soleil, and
so many other major innovations in health care, sciences, and
(01:56):
technology. We had some of the best universities in the world, and we
were a country known as peacekeepers where tolerance
was something the world admired and respected. But then I asked
what happened. Food banks overrun, tents have become affordable housing,
unemployment's on the rise, capital's fleeing the country, and
so is our talent. We've buried future generations in so much
(02:19):
debt. It's like they'll be waiting through cement their entire life.
Well, I wanna change that. I want the Canada that has a
prosperity agenda back. I want the country that was known as peacekeepers,
as tolerant, as a place to be, as a place to invent, as a place
to access your dreams. Do we have what it
takes to reclaim the Canada we all want and deserve?
(02:42):
Well, now I turn the spotlight on Arlene Dickinson, Jon Love,
and Dania South to hear what they have to say about making
Canada the true north strong and free.
Hi. It's Tony Chapman. Thank you for listening to Chatter That Matters presented by
RBC. If you can, please subscribe to the podcast. And
(03:02):
ratings and reviews, well, they're always welcome and they're always appreciated.
So Arlene, I brought you up first. I'll begin with you. Age 30,
4 kids, divorced, no education, no
prospects. Take us back to what you did then and how the
conditions in Canada allowed you to do what
you needed to do. I was reminiscing, and I was singing
(03:26):
Canada. Do you remember that? Yeah. When they used to talk about the
train coming through, you remember that? I remember that. And I was thinking
about how romantic it sounded and how great it sounded.
And the challenge that we have sometimes is that it's easy to say we wanna
go back to the way we were. Things were were good
back then and when we rethink them. But there was also lots of challenges
(03:48):
back then. 1988, the year that I got divorced. So
I'm a newly divorced, mom of 4, without
a high school with a high school education but no other education and no skills
or training, trying to figure out how to make a living, in Alberta.
A very oil and gas energy focused province where,
(04:09):
there was a lot of male leaders but not a lot of female as in
business. It was also 1988, interest rates were about
10 3 quarters percent. So when we think about how bad they are
now, they went from 1988 to about 10 3 quarters percent to
about 13 and a half percent in the next couple of years. And our mortgage
was up to 18%. You know, I was divorced and had no kind
(04:31):
of prospects. There was the everyone was afraid that Russia was gonna
start a war tomorrow and World War 3 was about to break out. There was
a lot of fear in the country and a lot of worry. We were overtaxed
and under populated. We introduced our very first climate,
targets in 1988 as a country. There was a lot happening
in that period of time that was worrisome and and troubling
(04:53):
and couldn't be as an entrepreneur things to stop you from saying I don't wanna
do this. But for me, because I wanted to build
something and because I couldn't get a job anywhere And so I decided
that I would, you know, start a communication company, which is not really something
that the country needed more of, but I decided that there could be a different
way to do it. And so it was troubling times in many respects and there's
(05:15):
a lot of parallels to today. Inflation, you know, still worried about what's
going on with world geopolitics, still worried about what's going on with our
climate, still concerned about all those things. But
I think what's the say from then and now is this hope
that Tony talks about, this dream, this ambition to be a stronger
nation, to be better together. And I held on to that. I held on to
(05:36):
this idea that, you know, I could help create a better future for this
country. As an immigrant, I was taught to be very
grateful for being here in Canada. But here I was
in a country that I could do anything I wanted to do whenever I wanted
to do it, and all I had to do was work hard. And if I
worked hard, I could get rewarded. You know, Arlene, you do I mean, you just
(05:57):
did a great Venture Park, conference. I talked a couple of people who were there.
They said it was amazing. A lot of young people. Do you think that they
have that same mentality that says if I work
hard, I'm guaranteed success? No. And I think the question is, Tony,
is that is that because the world is is it because he it's
so much worse now? Or is it because we there's no regulations on social
(06:18):
media and there's nobody tempering and, calming the
waters in terms of what people can say and do on social media? It is
such a negative impact. I mean, who wants to read every single time you pick
up a social media platform how bad things are and how
horrible? It affects all of us as it affects our mental health. It makes us
believe it to be true. And I think it's it's not to say that that's
(06:39):
all it is, but I do think that's a big piece of why you're seeing
kind of the malaise you're seeing. It was hard to own a house in 1988
too. It was it was different. I mean, he's so achievable.
I do think that we're victims of algorithms
and dopamine that comes from looking at social media to
try and get, a hit of what's happening in the world. And we don't
(07:01):
have enough critical thinking. And your point about educating and making sure
people are trained on not just electoral, challenges
and what's going on in poll political scenes, but in general, I think is the
biggest issue in our country. So, Jon, we talked about earlier, we're just talking
about that it's very difficult for a politician to live in the middle
anymore given that attentions are oxygen and attentions
(07:23):
on social media. You know, to live in the middle, you can't garner
the kind of support you need and you just garner garner attacks. So that's that's
why we're seeing divisions on both sides of the border. And while we
look to the US, the current US situation with some horror, you know, it's not
a lot different here. The fact is that, you know, over
the last 20 years, globalization and technology
(07:45):
has created an enormous amount of wealth. It's just has not
been distributed very equally. So when you read a
headline, like over the last 10 years, our GDP per capita
hat is stagnant. Well, that's on average.
You know, many of us actually have done fine, which
means many of others have done much more poorly. And it's those
(08:08):
people that are increasingly unhappy because they've been left out of the
grand bargain of globalization and technology.
And Dany, I'll go I mean, I your book is just wonderful and I love
the your personal stories including, you know, the the Muslim kid in Edmonton who wanna
be a professional hockey player. Talk to me about the conditions
as you as a kid, you came out of, Alberta and you become
(08:31):
one of the definitive minds when it comes to how
Canada needs to play chess on the global trade scene. I reflect, you
know, a lot on my childhood in Alberta as I look across
the country today, and, you know, it's characterized by a
few core things. First, there was an intense sense of
belonging, optimism, and I grew up
(08:53):
knowing there would always be opportunity. It could be
channeled into opportunity, into what Arlene was talking about, which really reflect
in the Canadian promise. The
promise that if you do these things, it's
most probable that you will be successful and be able to live the
Canadian dream. So today, when I hear the conversations,
(09:15):
the core thing that's missing, the beginning of it is
belief. Nothing starts without
believing in something because it softens all
of the edges because it's true. There's always been if you
look at it across history, it's not unique. There are
people who hate. There are people who are
(09:37):
unproductive. What that cannot be there's no generation that's different.
Arlene said back then, interest rates were there's always something.
And why is it that we were able to overcome? Because we
believed, and that creates the consensus. And that's the Alberta that
I grew up in where my great grandfather came from Lebanon in
the 19 thirties. He came in the thirties because his cousin and his
(10:01):
family came from some small village. In the early
1900, they became furriers. They became farmers. They did
what was available. And from that, they built the first
mosque in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada in 1938,
it was finished. The real first little mosque on the prairie,
that's the embrace of Canada. And that's the promise that
(10:23):
we have to reclaim. Once we reclaim that and we draw
upon our history, we've done it before,
then the best chapter is yet to be written about this country. Jon,
I use this analogy of castles and drawbridges. And, you know, I
look at the private sector often subsidies and consolidation
and protecting what I have, my status quo, and don't blame
(10:46):
unions. They've earned certain things to their members. They want more. Education wants to
protect tenure. Everybody wants to protect what they have. How do we
get people to come to the middle ground and say, we're gonna all get might
have to give up something to create a growing pie
versus all attacking the shrinking pie. Do we, as a collective,
think that growing the pie is important? You know, that may
(11:07):
sound obvious, but you don't find in
contemporary politics much of a prosperity agenda.
Instead, we continually get exposed to
wedge issues, more regulation, more taxes, more, you know,
whatever it is. We don't have a prosperity
agenda. No one's talking about how are we gonna grow
(11:30):
the economy? How are we gonna give more people more opportunity
to create businesses, to create jobs, to create tax revenue, etcetera?
Instead, all we talk of is how are we
gonna regulate and add more regulations. And so that it
discourages investment, it discourages entrepreneurship, and it
makes everything more difficult. And as we look at whatever our challenges
(11:53):
we have today, things like the housing crisis, which is, from my
perspective, existential, it is a 100% the
result of bad public policy.
Good public policy can reverse that ish. But we need as a
collective to start talking about to our politicians, to
our constituents, to our neighbors, to our friends, to our community,
(12:15):
where is the prosperity agenda? The energy
industry in Canada is 20% of our entire our entire
GDP. It's 15% of the jobs of our country, the energy
industry. And there are governments who won't
engage with the leaders of the energy industry, the largest
industry in the country, which, you know, sort of tells
(12:36):
you where we are as a country. Massive untapped
opportunity.
I can campaign on a set of promises,
and then when I'm in office, I can do a material change,
and there's no national referendum. It just simply becomes
(12:59):
now that I have power, I can choose what I do. Do you think part
of our issue is that we as voters are so
tolerant for that? I believe that a promise made is a promise kept. Private
sector works that way. Why shouldn't government work that way that says if this
is our policy, whether it's deficit, immigration, health care,
dental care, whatever we're invested in, prosperity, that if that's what I'm
(13:22):
elected on, that's what I have to deliver on. And if not, I have to
I have to seek the approval of voters. I'll give the Trudeau government credit.
In 2015, they ran on marijuana and a deficit. They
delivered both. In 2019, they ran on
gender, indigenous, climate. You know, they've made
progress on all those agendas. The narrow issue is what
(13:43):
Canadians want is not on their agenda. Because Canadians
are concerned with housing, cost of living, opportunity,
taxes, roads, I mean, which is why in the polls, you know, they're
in slight difficulty. I think I think too, anytime you have, an
economy that's driven by public sector employment versus private sector
employment, you are in a place where there isn't going to be good productivity for
(14:05):
the nation or innovation happening in the nation. You start to see
this imbalance in terms of who we're going to put in power and what they
run on. They're, they're running on a short term tactical
approach to getting votes as opposed to a long term strategy
for how they're gonna build the country. And that takes courage
to say, I'm gonna do these things when maybe your special interest groups don't like
(14:27):
those things, or maybe the people that are speaking to you. And frankly, let's face
it, I think one of the challenges in our governments over time has
been that the people who have the leaders ears are the elite
in the country. They do not represent the majority of the country.
And so you have whispering in politicians' ears people who do
not need the things that the average Canadian needs and are out of touch with
(14:49):
that reality. There's a question I've asked. Are we gonna continue as voters to
accept that you can run on any promise? And when
you're in power, things that are materially different to your promise allowed to
do it. So, Dany, first well, I think, you know, necessity is the mother
of all invention. Maybe we have become complacent
and it really didn't matter, so we had a wide tolerance for that.
(15:12):
But now we're starting to feel like these are very serious times. You know,
like you're on a plane, autopilot. It's great when
there's no turbulence or anything like that. But when there are turbulent
times, you want that person in that cockpit to know how to handle this plane.
And maybe we are in those times and it matters, and the people are smart
enough to know. So I think it's gonna come back. And I think I love
(15:34):
Jon and Arlene, what they're talking about is this prosperity agenda
and entrepreneurship. So it's easy. Every day, get
up, take shots at things. Don't like, don't like, don't like, don't
like. You know what's harder? Pick something that's positive,
create a consensus around that. That's harder. And, you know,
as a father and as a Canadian like all of you, then what's the next
(15:57):
big thing that's gonna make my kids feel that optimism?
And then it's gonna be reflected in opportunity. I wrote a book about it, and
it was a simple idea. I talked about my great grandfather coming.
It was the agricultural age. Let's just call it, it was the agricultural
age. Big trend. What did they do? They went out to the
west. They went out to farms. They got farm implements. They
(16:20):
worked the land. They never imagined you're gonna build a metropolis like this?
Who would have thought? Today, what is it? Big picture.
Digital age, the digital farmland. What's happened?
The tools of productivity have been democratized. They're all
in our hands. Give the people the tools to
work the digital farmland and you just never know what they're
(16:43):
going to be able to build. And that where that's where that
opportunity comes and where there's entrepreneurship and this
prosperity agenda can maybe come together to create that wave
where that next chapter can be So Arlene, I wanna go to you on that
because you're so vested. You're a champion of
small business. How do we create a prosperity agenda for
(17:05):
entrepreneurs in Canada that says we're creating the circumstances to dream it
and do it and not feel embarrassed by being becoming wealthy for it,
not becoming embarrassed about being successful for it. I mean, it's exactly what Jon
said. We need a strategy and we need a plan for entrepreneurship in this
country. It has to be declared that Canada is supportive of entrepreneurs,
and it has not been declared that way in any way. In fact, the capital
(17:26):
gains tax that we just saw implemented says the exact opposite. In fact, it
should be as simple as you can incorporate for free. If you invest in a
first time entrepreneur, there's just some tax saving for that. The first
dollars that you earn in as an entrepreneur should be, you know,
taxed at a lower rate. There are some simple measures that
Canada as a country could stand behind that say
(17:49):
to the world, we are in support of entrepreneurship. Those
things do not exist today. You know, the superclusters, 1,000,000,000
of dollars put into superclusters, but no accountability to whether those
superclusters have actually delivered any value in terms of long
term entrepreneurial innovation. We are a country that grows
our ingredients, we do not commercialize our ingredients. The
(18:11):
last mile of commercialization is where the value is. We are a country
that invests in r and d and in IP, and then sell our r and
d and our IP to other nations who turn it into products and services
that we then buy back. We are not creating a
strategic framework that allows entrepreneurs to be successful. You
raise a good point on the superclusters. The amount of money that our governments give
(18:33):
to businesses drive increased. Mhmm. The province of Prince
Edward Island actually gives more money to businesses
than they collect in business tax revenue. If you're Prince Edward
Island, why don't you say, we're not gonna give businesses any money and we're
not gonna charge taxes. It could be a tax haven. Wouldn't that be a
gig? I mean, you know, we've gotta get government out of picking winners
(18:56):
and losers, regulations and all the I mean, the if we wanna unleash
creativity and the entrepreneur, it's not about giving them incentives and
everything else, just get out of the way. We have spent so much
money working the government and so little working for taxpayers.
So how do we change that? The Fraser Institute's just done a an
interesting, paper on how to balance the budget. And
(19:19):
how to balance the budget, is actually cutting personal taxes,
cutting corporate taxes, and eliminating 49
different programs, subsidies, loopholes, etcetera. In
other words, simplifying the tax code actually creates enough money to balance the
budget. The tax code never gets simplified. It only gets complicated.
So I'm gonna play devil's advocate. You you come up with this agenda and
(19:41):
everybody oh, yeah. You're gonna take care of the rich. They're gonna get not pay
the taxes. How about me? I'm struggling. Like how do we change the
narrative in this country so that everybody goes, to you it's common
sense. We have the tall poppy syndrome in Canada. We we
we have it in spades where if somebody does is successful we wanna,
you know, chop them down so that they don't stand out in life. We need
(20:02):
to do the exact opposite. So in order to change it, we need to elevate
the successful one first just like excellence candidates doing. How do you elevate
excellence? How do you how do you show it as a
beacon as opposed to an tax opportunity?
And the rhetoric that we're getting from government about excellence. We have
to start celebrating success. Here's another issue.
(20:26):
Jon brought it up, our natural resources. How important it is to our economy, but
more importantly, maybe to the western democracies? I'd rather have a
national North American energy strategy, and I'd rather
have my allies know that it's not Putin that's got the hand of natural gas,
but it's coming from Canada. How do we change this so the average voter
says bullshit? This is part of our strategy going
(20:47):
forward because the wealth that we create can set up future generations to
success. I think there's another key concept that we need to keep in mind, which
is trust. If you are in a team and you
trust one another, you know that the whole is gonna be
greater than the sum of the parts. So belief and trust,
very basic building blocks. From there, it does play into national
(21:10):
natural resources, which is this is a collective asset of our
nation. This is what we've been blessed with this. How do
we provide these things to a world
that's demanding them and needs them in a way that's
going to enrich us, education and health care and all
the things that are hallmarks of our nation, and also do it in a way
(21:31):
we're gonna be leaders in preserving the climate. These are the
things we have a conversation where we create consensus.
I'll do this, you do that, shared sacrifice
shared sacrifice. If you feel what you're contributing is somehow gonna
benefit you as well, then that creates again an opportunity
for people to say things like Jon is describing. Do you
(21:54):
know that if we just tax one another endlessly, we'll
create less wealth? Here's how we make more money. By
unleashing everybody, you're all gonna get an opportunity to make
the most of the digital economy, to make the most of whether
you work in resources. Your chance is gonna be dictated by you.
And when you get that success, it's going to be something that's
(22:16):
gonna be reflected in the success of everybody in our country.
In a moment, more of my in-depth conversation with Arlene Dickinson, Jon
Love, and Dany Assaf.
Hi. It's Tony Chapman. Investing in Canada? Well, that matters
to RBC. $500,000,000,000 in sustainable financing
(22:40):
to combat climate change. 500,000,000 for future launch.
A 10 year program to prepare youth for the jobs of tomorrow. Helping
to discover the next generation of Olympians, artists monetizing their
talents, women entrepreneurs pursuing their dreams, supporting mental
health, and so much more. Investing in Canada, well, that
matters to RBC.
(23:05):
On this special edition of Chatter That Manors, we're talking all things
Canada, past, present, and future, and joining me
are 3 of Canada's leading thinkers, Arlene Dickinson,
Jon Love, and Dany Assach.
Everything you're talking about sounds wonderful. I'm getting so excited. We're gonna lift
Canada, but, well, is that gonna get me elected in my riding? Is
(23:28):
that interest groups, the lobbyists that are taking care of me? All
these people whispering my ear. How do we get to the point, putting
narrative out saying, it absolutely is about Canada and future
Canadians prosperity. It's about personalizing, it's about your grandkids,
it's about people that are coming into this country, their success, they're chasing the
dream. So, it's worth going after it versus being torn
(23:50):
apart by fringes of society. Do we dare to
dream? If you look at some of the great speeches of
history, Martin Luther's Dare to Dream, Churchill's War Speeches, and so
on, They all have a common theme.
Are we able to be something better than we are
today? As Canadians, do we wanna
(24:12):
take on a big challenge? I'll give you a big challenge. Over
the next 30 years, India's growth of its
coal fired generating capacity, generate electricity,
will generate more emissions than Canada does as a country. Why
don't we, as a country, disintermediate the burning
of coal for energy globally? We've got all
(24:35):
the resources. We have all the skills. We have finances.
We are uniquely positioned to actually make a
difference in climate change if we want, and it
involves every province. Everybody's got a stake in this narrative. We
couldn't dare dream that we, in fact, could make
an impact. What we need is leadership. When I talk about tax cuts,
(24:58):
I'm not talking about tax cuts for the rich. God knows I don't need a
tax cut. We need to make sure we have get money in
people's pockets. That's what they're interested in, their standard of living. And
that's how I would I would do tax cuts. And if we, you know, if
we wanted to go down and really think about deregulation,
and how you know, what regulation's really not needed and what
(25:20):
frustrates the growth of business and what drives capital
and talent out of this country. Every time
I see capital and talent lead the country,
I see tax revenue also go with it. So I wanna build, and you
said we just need leadership. You started with the word leadership. I
would put up lawn signs for any one of you 3 if you ran for
(25:42):
politics. None of you wanna run because of the sit the
circumstances of our democracy right now. How do we
change that so that people of your caliber that can communicate, that
have a social conscience, that care about people, not just their own
pocketbooks, absolutely step into the public arena and
run? I think the political gain is
(26:05):
requires a very different skillset, but I don't have the skills
to be a politician. But why don't we look at a model where I think
it uses business skills very thoughtfully? In the
US, you elect a president who appoints a
cabinet, and that cabinet all comes from
anywhere he wants. It's not elected pea he or she
(26:27):
has the ability to select, you know, some of the
leading minds and and and and says to someone,
you know, Dany, I want to give you a role and it's 2 years or
it's 4 years. Here's the mandate. Here's the department. Go at
it. If we had the ability to do that in Canada, you
could attract lots of super high quality
(26:48):
talent that would be happy to work for a dollar a year
around a specific mission. Arlene? Yeah. I mean, when you think
about, like, finance minister Bill Moreau, who came from the
public private sector and had the mandate similar to what I think if
you talk to him today, he would say it was incredibly difficult to turn the
tide in terms of what his mandate was. And so, you know, what we're seeing
(27:10):
play out in the US is exactly what you're talking about here, which is we've
got one leader down there, who is
talking about the way things were. Let's go back to how it was. It was
better it it was better in the past. We wanna, you know, make America great
again. It was all about what we said earlier, like, the past was was so
beautiful. It wasn't. And then we've got another leader who talked about
(27:32):
hope and dreams and a vision for the future. There's this challenging
thing about communication, and and you know us better than anybody, Tony, to get your
message out there as a politician is so incredibly difficult because
things get crazily blown out of proportion. Why
don't we run well? I'm like you. I don't think I have the skills to
be a politician. I'm not very politically inclined. I'll say that I shouldn't
(27:54):
say. How do we change the circumstances of government?
I'm not anti democracy. I'm just saying everything else has changed. I don't your
business has changed, I have to believe, over 50 years. Entrepreneurship has changed.
Law's changed. Everything's changed. How do we change the conditions so
that people with a heart ahead and a bias for action
have an ability to influence how this country is run. We all have to think
(28:16):
about this, how we're gonna participate in our democracy.
My real job is I'm a competition lawyer, and I think of how do you
change the dynamics of any market? Maybe it's
ideas like we need a new party. You need
competition. You've got these parties which have had great
history. They've all done great things. It's not to disparage anybody.
(28:37):
But when things get locked in, you need a new
entrant. These folks have built businesses. They've seen the
great success and God willing, they'll see more. And you talk
about their strategy. And people will have memos, they'll
have PowerPoints, they'll have all kinds of things. You know, the one
thing that can put an immediate stop to all of that
(29:00):
is they pick up a paper, they get a call from a customer saying their
competitor did something unique. I'll tell you, that
clears the decks. Let's talk about immigration.
This country was built on immigrants. Some of my best podcasts, either
refugees or immigrants, it is what's made this country magical.
Now the narrative is so anti immigrant, and it's
(29:23):
becoming a put political football. And these are human lies. These are people, many of
them coming here and going, I've given up everything to come to Canada very
often for their kids. I'm a doctor. I'll drive an Uber if my kid's gonna
have a better life. What do we need to do as a country to
reclaim the sense that immigration matters and the right
immigration's gonna help lift us to where we need to go? Okay. So can you
(29:44):
imagine sitting around the cabinet table and say, why don't we grow
the population of Canada by 10% over, say,
3 or 4 years, which is what's hot? In this high growth environment,
everything's stressed. Health care, social infrastructure, everything's
stressed. We don't have enough houses, etcetera, etcetera. So, you know, the
growth strategy I'm pro growth. The growth strategy wasn't a company
(30:06):
accompanied by, what if you have growth? Like, it's amazing.
So in the Q2 of this year, we welcomed
250,000 new Canadians to Canada. And we
built enough houses for a 150,000 of
them. Now it doesn't take a brain surgeon to
say where are the other 100000 people supposed to
(30:29):
live. New Canadians have built enormous amount of wealth for all of
us and our country. We want more of them, and we need
a policy that is that is accompanied
by how do we support these people. We are a a mosaic
as a country. We are not a melting pot. We are comprised of many
different types of, ethnicities and cultures,
(30:51):
and that's what makes our country great. And when we bring in people who
have, ideas that come from, you know, whether let's say somebody comes from
Europe, where they're used to high density, small, you know, like we wanna
build mansions. Well, no. Maybe we need to build smaller homes and maybe we need
to we need to make them more affordable. And we need to figure out how
to, you know, ensure that everybody has an opportunity at home
(31:12):
ownership. If you're in BC, good luck. We know what the issues are.
But to your point, Toni, how do we fix this? Okay. Can I can I
give you just 2 sound bites on housing? Because I'm here. Yeah. You
know, in Toronto, city of Toronto, if you build an apartment building,
a third of the cost of the building Yeah. Are taxes. Sweet.
Okay. So if you didn't have all those taxes, you
(31:36):
could charge 2 thirds of the rent. And people like us would be super happy
about that because you are more likely to fill up the building.
Second thing is, to get a building built
typically takes 5 years of negotiation
with the city. We have an affordable housing project
that's now under construction. 420 it's Valhalla Business Park.
(31:58):
So 427 in Dundas. So this is affordable
housing, geothermal, zero carbon. K?
So you might think That would be attractive, but
we end up in this exhaustive struggle.
All 3 of my guests, Arlene Dickinson, Jon Love, and Dania Sapp, have
(32:21):
joined me previously on Chatter That Matters. Today, we're focusing
on what matters most to Canada.
AI. Venton, really, in Canada. This is, I've
been working in AI now for 4 months. It's either gonna be something that
allows you to soar or it's gonna be the greatest sledgehammer that ever hit you.
(32:41):
And there's nothing in the middle. What's your take on
how AI can play a role, positive
role in what we're talking about today in
finding a way to be much more efficient and much more
pragmatic in terms of how we shape policy and, introduce
policy in this country. AI is part of this digital
(33:04):
farmland, and we did invent it. So it's this is a
fascinating new experiment in how we're gonna go from
basically building the technology to how we commercialize it. So
oil, I don't know how many eras of
oil there was, booms, and we still didn't weren't able to refine it
and make the more, value added products. Critical
(33:26):
Minerals, we're gonna see. We're gonna take it out of the ground. Are we gonna
build those batteries? We're trying. Okay? But AI, this is
really our strength. We developed this technology. Are we
gonna be able to commercialize it? And where's the promise? So
I've seen statistics. They say that AI itself is gonna it's
7% to global GDP. That is several
(33:47):
7, 8, 9,000,000,000,000 dollars are gonna be added.
Not only that, the wealth that's gonna create the opportunity who
built Facebook? Who built Amazon? All these they were unfamiliar
names. Who is going to be those next
people who are gonna develop technology and AI that are gonna revolutionize our
way of life? They could be Canadian. And then when we
(34:10):
think of the potential of it and efficiency, another big thing to tie in,
productivity. We have a productivity problem.
AI is the solution to that. Just think of the things you'll be
able to do more efficiently. We were talking about it earlier today. Things that
used to take a year can take a day. Think about
in pharma. There are all these papers written over decades
(34:32):
about how this molecule interacts with that molecule, interact with that
molecule. They go into a desk or into a file folder. Now AI
can correlate decades of research to tell
you, boom, that's the molecule that's gonna cure this disease.
We have the people. We have the institutions. Our schools, what are our
strengths? In addition to minerals, our education
(34:54):
system, our universities, those are the gold
mines of the future. All those kids coming out of those
schools, those are where that best chapter is gonna be
written. So this is our moment to seize it. It is now.
Jon, I mean, if you were running on an election on
one thing that matters most to Canada, one thing that we say we're
(35:16):
all gonna get every voter to say, yes, that makes sense. What would it be?
Prosperity. Do you think voters are capable of understanding
prosperity? Because there's 2 things. You're gonna come in and talk about prosperity and I'm
gonna offer you universal healthcare. Or I'm gonna offer you free dental
care. Or I'm gonna offer you whatever free prize inside. What do we
need to do as a nation to make sure voters are voting not just for
(35:38):
today, but ultimately for what Canada can become? In
communication, there's two styles. There's those that can simplify
and that there's those that complicate. And, you know,
great leadership can take the concept of prosperity
and simplify that and make it personal to each of
(35:58):
us. Because while it's interesting to hear about
more social programs, how are they funded?
It's prosperity. While it's great to listen to think about
more education, more pick whatever you want, but it's all funded
by the same thing, which is more prosperity.
And prosperity doesn't happen in a vacuum.
(36:22):
Government's role is to set the stage, set the rules of the
game, and encourage prosperity. And
that is what I think a compelling leader could
galvanize the country. But it seems like such hard work when they're
just offering me something for free because what I understand Hard work.
No. But I'm just saying that as terms of reaching a voter, I'm talking
(36:44):
about your personal prosperity. Yeah. I'm talking about your standard of
living. I'm talking about, you know, if if we think there's a housing crisis because
we measure it by, you know, how many people, you know, don't have a house
or whatever, think about all the under housed. Those are people that
are in a one bedroom apartment that would prefer to be in a 2, etcetera.
Right? Because density in housing has
(37:07):
increased because people don't have options. You know, we've got a large
population that would run that would like to
improve their standard of living. So
that is prosperity, and I would make it personal to you
and the country. How do you make the debt personal? So I realized that
because I talked to a long lot of young people, they don't personalize the debt
(37:29):
as theirs. They think deficit is very different. Debt is simple.
I'm living on my grandchildren's bill because they
have to pay it back. Dany, I'm gonna talk to you in terms of some
major negotiations. Canada is a trading nation. We're an
export nation. What do we need to do to ensure
that our destiny is a matter of choice and not left to the chance or
(37:50):
the whim of maybe a new leader in the United States or what's
happening politically around the world? I think we need a clear eyed strategy
of how we're gonna create prosperity. So the number one thing behind that
is that your children are going to be better off than you.
That is the fundamental promise. And then from there, how do you create wealth?
You need people. They need to be educated and healthy,
(38:14):
just normal stuff. They need tools, a
hammer, a computer, whatever it is. They need infrastructure.
They need broadband, highways, whatever to go there. And at the end of that line,
whatever you do, you need 2 things to make those a reality.
You need capital to bring your idea really to life and give it
scale. That's the oxygen. And then finally, you need
(38:37):
to be able to sell it to somebody. How do
40,000,000 people create the kind of wealth and the standard of living we have
in a world of 8,000,000,000? You need to leverage
that. And that is through trade agreements. Look across the
world. We have our dear friends and allies. They will always
be our core partners. There's no doubt. Whether the president
(38:58):
comes or goes, whoever it is, we gotta negotiate in our
greatest self international interest to make sure that we get the best deal for
Canadians. But at the same time, we need to take a little bit of a
Swiss approach of a little bit of neutrality, look out to the
world, and say, who are our next trading
partners and make sure that we have strong connections built off of our
(39:19):
diverse population. Again, another one of our assets. People
here from all around the world who have connections there and to see that
those relationships are just as valued as our traditional
relationship. So, Dany, while we're at it, and it sounds wonderful, we probably have the
worst inter provincial trade agreements. I mean, we we have
more free better free trade with many countries around the world than we do inside
(39:42):
our borders. And, jeez, the last thing I wanna do is is,
impact somebody that might not get me elected. How do we change this country
so that there's free trade with them? I think it's simple. Does any one province
think you're gonna be wealthier alone than together? If you
do, good luck. Take a look around the world. It's
not so simple. We need to know we need to unify
(40:04):
here first to become stronger outside.
And that's the message we need to get, to with to across Canada,
within Canadians to know that this world is there's a lot of disruption,
there's a lot of transformation, there's a lot of risk. But, again, there's a lot
of opportunity in that if we come together here so we can be
stronger abroad. And Arlene, too
(40:26):
many talented individuals, entrepreneurs are
leaving this country. Too much capital is flowing away from this country.
What do we need to do because this country is entrepreneurs?
What do we need to do to, make it the
lifeblood going forward that not only are they gonna stay here
and build their businesses here, but the more Shopifys are gonna be here,
(40:49):
but we're gonna attract some of the best talent around the world because this is
the fertile ground to grow. We need to celebrate entrepreneurs. We
need to invest in entrepreneurs, and we need to buy from entrepreneurs. And if we
do those things, we will elevate entrepreneurs to a place
where they can actually prosper. You know, I always end my
chatter that matters podcast with my 3 takeaways. And,
(41:10):
Jon, what I took away from you, the most important word is prosperity.
Start selling a prosperity agenda. Let people know what it's like to have
that as a North Star and what it means for me personally if we're all
in it together. I think, Dany, your passion
and just the simple word of belief, how important it is to
believe in positivity and possibility, and
(41:32):
and what it would mean to sort of lift, elevate us so that it
switches on every day. And Arlene, interesting enough, that is
this concept of tall poppy. And I think you're right. If Terry Fox was, an
American, they would have torn down the Statue of Liberty and and built a Terry
Fox statue. Canada has had so many extraordinary things.
We don't make these people our heroes. We don't make them our crusaders. We don't
(41:54):
talk about the the employment they created, the wealth they mattered, how they've
culturally impacted this country. And I think we've gotta do a lot more of
elevating the tall poppy versus trying to to cut it off at the stem.
So, ladies and gentlemen, I think these 3 deserve an incredible round
of applause.
(42:16):
Once again, a special thanks to RBC for supporting Chata That Matters.
It's Tony Chapman. Thanks for listening, and let's chat soon.
Welcome to the special edition of Chatter That Matters. What I have in store for
you are 3 of the smartest Canadians that I know, Arlene
Dickinson, Jon Love, and Dany Asap. I had the
honor to interview them in front of an audience at Excellence Canada's
40th anniversary. And to kick off the morning, I
delivered a short keynote. Paraphrase it, I talked about my
(00:26):
pride being a Canadian. And then I took the audience back to
1967 when I was a young boy, and I got to
celebrate Canada's 100th birthday. And what a year. He had
a caravan, a centennial train, and, of course, Expo
67 in my hometown of Montreal. What an engineering feat.
Built 3 man made islands, tumbled into the Saint Lawrence to extend our subway
(00:48):
or what we called the metro. We built a monorail. Every country
put their best foot forward, but nothing compared to Canada and the
provinces. We demonstrated. Canada stood for
and why we matter. And I wondered if it was just my rose
colored glasses, that moment in time, or did
Canada really stand for something? Well, for 2 years, we've been flying this
(01:11):
new flag called the Maplelet. Pearson was our prime minister.
We also had one of the highest per capita incomes. We had a growing
middle class. The Canadian dream was within arms reach of desire.
Immigrants that would come to this country could do whatever they wanted to do because
of circumstances existed. Infrastructure, we built a
TransCanada highway in 12 years, the Saint Lawrence Seaway in 5 years,
(01:34):
and our social conscious, we said to the world that are on
watch. We could bring universal health care and the Canadian pension
plan unemployment insurance to our people. We set
up such conditions for success that we continue to roar as a
country. Blackberry, Nortel, Couche Tard, Cirque du Soleil, and
so many other major innovations in health care, sciences, and
(01:56):
technology. We had some of the best universities in the world, and we
were a country known as peacekeepers where tolerance
was something the world admired and respected. But then I asked
what happened. Food banks overrun, tents have become affordable housing,
unemployment's on the rise, capital's fleeing the country, and
so is our talent. We've buried future generations in so much
(02:19):
debt. It's like they'll be waiting through cement their entire life.
Well, I wanna change that. I want the Canada that has a
prosperity agenda back. I want the country that was known as peacekeepers,
as tolerant, as a place to be, as a place to invent, as a place
to access your dreams. Do we have what it
takes to reclaim the Canada we all want and deserve?
(02:42):
Well, now I turn the spotlight on Arlene Dickinson, Jon Love,
and Dania South to hear what they have to say about making
Canada the true north strong and free.
Hi. It's Tony Chapman. Thank you for listening to Chatter That Matters presented by
RBC. If you can, please subscribe to the podcast. And
(03:02):
ratings and reviews, well, they're always welcome and they're always appreciated.
So Arlene, I brought you up first. I'll begin with you. Age 30,
4 kids, divorced, no education, no
prospects. Take us back to what you did then and how the
conditions in Canada allowed you to do what
you needed to do. I was reminiscing, and I was singing
(03:26):
Canada. Do you remember that? Yeah. When they used to talk about the
train coming through, you remember that? I remember that. And I was thinking
about how romantic it sounded and how great it sounded.
And the challenge that we have sometimes is that it's easy to say we wanna
go back to the way we were. Things were were good
back then and when we rethink them. But there was also lots of challenges
(03:48):
back then. 1988, the year that I got divorced. So
I'm a newly divorced, mom of 4, without
a high school with a high school education but no other education and no skills
or training, trying to figure out how to make a living, in Alberta.
A very oil and gas energy focused province where,
(04:09):
there was a lot of male leaders but not a lot of female as in
business. It was also 1988, interest rates were about
10 3 quarters percent. So when we think about how bad they are
now, they went from 1988 to about 10 3 quarters percent to
about 13 and a half percent in the next couple of years. And our mortgage
was up to 18%. You know, I was divorced and had no kind
(04:31):
of prospects. There was the everyone was afraid that Russia was gonna
start a war tomorrow and World War 3 was about to break out. There was
a lot of fear in the country and a lot of worry. We were overtaxed
and under populated. We introduced our very first climate,
targets in 1988 as a country. There was a lot happening
in that period of time that was worrisome and and troubling
(04:53):
and couldn't be as an entrepreneur things to stop you from saying I don't wanna
do this. But for me, because I wanted to build
something and because I couldn't get a job anywhere And so I decided
that I would, you know, start a communication company, which is not really something
that the country needed more of, but I decided that there could be a different
way to do it. And so it was troubling times in many respects and there's
(05:15):
a lot of parallels to today. Inflation, you know, still worried about what's
going on with world geopolitics, still worried about what's going on with our
climate, still concerned about all those things. But
I think what's the say from then and now is this hope
that Tony talks about, this dream, this ambition to be a stronger
nation, to be better together. And I held on to that. I held on to
(05:36):
this idea that, you know, I could help create a better future for this
country. As an immigrant, I was taught to be very
grateful for being here in Canada. But here I was
in a country that I could do anything I wanted to do whenever I wanted
to do it, and all I had to do was work hard. And if I
worked hard, I could get rewarded. You know, Arlene, you do I mean, you just
(05:57):
did a great Venture Park, conference. I talked a couple of people who were there.
They said it was amazing. A lot of young people. Do you think that they
have that same mentality that says if I work
hard, I'm guaranteed success? No. And I think the question is, Tony,
is that is that because the world is is it because he it's
so much worse now? Or is it because we there's no regulations on social
(06:18):
media and there's nobody tempering and, calming the
waters in terms of what people can say and do on social media? It is
such a negative impact. I mean, who wants to read every single time you pick
up a social media platform how bad things are and how
horrible? It affects all of us as it affects our mental health. It makes us
believe it to be true. And I think it's it's not to say that that's
(06:39):
all it is, but I do think that's a big piece of why you're seeing
kind of the malaise you're seeing. It was hard to own a house in 1988
too. It was it was different. I mean, he's so achievable.
I do think that we're victims of algorithms
and dopamine that comes from looking at social media to
try and get, a hit of what's happening in the world. And we don't
(07:01):
have enough critical thinking. And your point about educating and making sure
people are trained on not just electoral, challenges
and what's going on in poll political scenes, but in general, I think is the
biggest issue in our country. So, Jon, we talked about earlier, we're just talking
about that it's very difficult for a politician to live in the middle
anymore given that attentions are oxygen and attentions
(07:23):
on social media. You know, to live in the middle, you can't garner
the kind of support you need and you just garner garner attacks. So that's that's
why we're seeing divisions on both sides of the border. And while we
look to the US, the current US situation with some horror, you know, it's not
a lot different here. The fact is that, you know, over
the last 20 years, globalization and technology
(07:45):
has created an enormous amount of wealth. It's just has not
been distributed very equally. So when you read a
headline, like over the last 10 years, our GDP per capita
hat is stagnant. Well, that's on average.
You know, many of us actually have done fine, which
means many of others have done much more poorly. And it's those
(08:08):
people that are increasingly unhappy because they've been left out of the
grand bargain of globalization and technology.
And Dany, I'll go I mean, I your book is just wonderful and I love
the your personal stories including, you know, the the Muslim kid in Edmonton who wanna
be a professional hockey player. Talk to me about the conditions
as you as a kid, you came out of, Alberta and you become
(08:31):
one of the definitive minds when it comes to how
Canada needs to play chess on the global trade scene. I reflect, you
know, a lot on my childhood in Alberta as I look across
the country today, and, you know, it's characterized by a
few core things. First, there was an intense sense of
belonging, optimism, and I grew up
(08:53):
knowing there would always be opportunity. It could be
channeled into opportunity, into what Arlene was talking about, which really reflect
in the Canadian promise. The
promise that if you do these things, it's
most probable that you will be successful and be able to live the
Canadian dream. So today, when I hear the conversations,
(09:15):
the core thing that's missing, the beginning of it is
belief. Nothing starts without
believing in something because it softens all
of the edges because it's true. There's always been if you
look at it across history, it's not unique. There are
people who hate. There are people who are
(09:37):
unproductive. What that cannot be there's no generation that's different.
Arlene said back then, interest rates were there's always something.
And why is it that we were able to overcome? Because we
believed, and that creates the consensus. And that's the Alberta that
I grew up in where my great grandfather came from Lebanon in
the 19 thirties. He came in the thirties because his cousin and his
(10:01):
family came from some small village. In the early
1900, they became furriers. They became farmers. They did
what was available. And from that, they built the first
mosque in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada in 1938,
it was finished. The real first little mosque on the prairie,
that's the embrace of Canada. And that's the promise that
(10:23):
we have to reclaim. Once we reclaim that and we draw
upon our history, we've done it before,
then the best chapter is yet to be written about this country. Jon,
I use this analogy of castles and drawbridges. And, you know, I
look at the private sector often subsidies and consolidation
and protecting what I have, my status quo, and don't blame
(10:46):
unions. They've earned certain things to their members. They want more. Education wants to
protect tenure. Everybody wants to protect what they have. How do we
get people to come to the middle ground and say, we're gonna all get might
have to give up something to create a growing pie
versus all attacking the shrinking pie. Do we, as a collective,
think that growing the pie is important? You know, that may
(11:07):
sound obvious, but you don't find in
contemporary politics much of a prosperity agenda.
Instead, we continually get exposed to
wedge issues, more regulation, more taxes, more, you know,
whatever it is. We don't have a prosperity
agenda. No one's talking about how are we gonna grow
(11:30):
the economy? How are we gonna give more people more opportunity
to create businesses, to create jobs, to create tax revenue, etcetera?
Instead, all we talk of is how are we
gonna regulate and add more regulations. And so that it
discourages investment, it discourages entrepreneurship, and it
makes everything more difficult. And as we look at whatever our challenges
(11:53):
we have today, things like the housing crisis, which is, from my
perspective, existential, it is a 100% the
result of bad public policy.
Good public policy can reverse that ish. But we need as a
collective to start talking about to our politicians, to
our constituents, to our neighbors, to our friends, to our community,
(12:15):
where is the prosperity agenda? The energy
industry in Canada is 20% of our entire our entire
GDP. It's 15% of the jobs of our country, the energy
industry. And there are governments who won't
engage with the leaders of the energy industry, the largest
industry in the country, which, you know, sort of tells
(12:36):
you where we are as a country. Massive untapped
opportunity.
I can campaign on a set of promises,
and then when I'm in office, I can do a material change,
and there's no national referendum. It just simply becomes
(12:59):
now that I have power, I can choose what I do. Do you think part
of our issue is that we as voters are so
tolerant for that? I believe that a promise made is a promise kept. Private
sector works that way. Why shouldn't government work that way that says if this
is our policy, whether it's deficit, immigration, health care,
dental care, whatever we're invested in, prosperity, that if that's what I'm
(13:22):
elected on, that's what I have to deliver on. And if not, I have to
I have to seek the approval of voters. I'll give the Trudeau government credit.
In 2015, they ran on marijuana and a deficit. They
delivered both. In 2019, they ran on
gender, indigenous, climate. You know, they've made
progress on all those agendas. The narrow issue is what
(13:43):
Canadians want is not on their agenda. Because Canadians
are concerned with housing, cost of living, opportunity,
taxes, roads, I mean, which is why in the polls, you know, they're
in slight difficulty. I think I think too, anytime you have, an
economy that's driven by public sector employment versus private sector
employment, you are in a place where there isn't going to be good productivity for
(14:05):
the nation or innovation happening in the nation. You start to see
this imbalance in terms of who we're going to put in power and what they
run on. They're, they're running on a short term tactical
approach to getting votes as opposed to a long term strategy
for how they're gonna build the country. And that takes courage
to say, I'm gonna do these things when maybe your special interest groups don't like
(14:27):
those things, or maybe the people that are speaking to you. And frankly, let's face
it, I think one of the challenges in our governments over time has
been that the people who have the leaders ears are the elite
in the country. They do not represent the majority of the country.
And so you have whispering in politicians' ears people who do
not need the things that the average Canadian needs and are out of touch with
(14:49):
that reality. There's a question I've asked. Are we gonna continue as voters to
accept that you can run on any promise? And when
you're in power, things that are materially different to your promise allowed to
do it. So, Dany, first well, I think, you know, necessity is the mother
of all invention. Maybe we have become complacent
and it really didn't matter, so we had a wide tolerance for that.
(15:12):
But now we're starting to feel like these are very serious times. You know,
like you're on a plane, autopilot. It's great when
there's no turbulence or anything like that. But when there are turbulent
times, you want that person in that cockpit to know how to handle this plane.
And maybe we are in those times and it matters, and the people are smart
enough to know. So I think it's gonna come back. And I think I love
(15:34):
Jon and Arlene, what they're talking about is this prosperity agenda
and entrepreneurship. So it's easy. Every day, get
up, take shots at things. Don't like, don't like, don't like, don't
like. You know what's harder? Pick something that's positive,
create a consensus around that. That's harder. And, you know,
as a father and as a Canadian like all of you, then what's the next
(15:57):
big thing that's gonna make my kids feel that optimism?
And then it's gonna be reflected in opportunity. I wrote a book about it, and
it was a simple idea. I talked about my great grandfather coming.
It was the agricultural age. Let's just call it, it was the agricultural
age. Big trend. What did they do? They went out to the
west. They went out to farms. They got farm implements. They
(16:20):
worked the land. They never imagined you're gonna build a metropolis like this?
Who would have thought? Today, what is it? Big picture.
Digital age, the digital farmland. What's happened?
The tools of productivity have been democratized. They're all
in our hands. Give the people the tools to
work the digital farmland and you just never know what they're
(16:43):
going to be able to build. And that where that's where that
opportunity comes and where there's entrepreneurship and this
prosperity agenda can maybe come together to create that wave
where that next chapter can be So Arlene, I wanna go to you on that
because you're so vested. You're a champion of
small business. How do we create a prosperity agenda for
(17:05):
entrepreneurs in Canada that says we're creating the circumstances to dream it
and do it and not feel embarrassed by being becoming wealthy for it,
not becoming embarrassed about being successful for it. I mean, it's exactly what Jon
said. We need a strategy and we need a plan for entrepreneurship in this
country. It has to be declared that Canada is supportive of entrepreneurs,
and it has not been declared that way in any way. In fact, the capital
(17:26):
gains tax that we just saw implemented says the exact opposite. In fact, it
should be as simple as you can incorporate for free. If you invest in a
first time entrepreneur, there's just some tax saving for that. The first
dollars that you earn in as an entrepreneur should be, you know,
taxed at a lower rate. There are some simple measures that
Canada as a country could stand behind that say
(17:49):
to the world, we are in support of entrepreneurship. Those
things do not exist today. You know, the superclusters, 1,000,000,000
of dollars put into superclusters, but no accountability to whether those
superclusters have actually delivered any value in terms of long
term entrepreneurial innovation. We are a country that grows
our ingredients, we do not commercialize our ingredients. The
(18:11):
last mile of commercialization is where the value is. We are a country
that invests in r and d and in IP, and then sell our r and
d and our IP to other nations who turn it into products and services
that we then buy back. We are not creating a
strategic framework that allows entrepreneurs to be successful. You
raise a good point on the superclusters. The amount of money that our governments give
(18:33):
to businesses drive increased. Mhmm. The province of Prince
Edward Island actually gives more money to businesses
than they collect in business tax revenue. If you're Prince Edward
Island, why don't you say, we're not gonna give businesses any money and we're
not gonna charge taxes. It could be a tax haven. Wouldn't that be a
gig? I mean, you know, we've gotta get government out of picking winners
(18:56):
and losers, regulations and all the I mean, the if we wanna unleash
creativity and the entrepreneur, it's not about giving them incentives and
everything else, just get out of the way. We have spent so much
money working the government and so little working for taxpayers.
So how do we change that? The Fraser Institute's just done a an
interesting, paper on how to balance the budget. And
(19:19):
how to balance the budget, is actually cutting personal taxes,
cutting corporate taxes, and eliminating 49
different programs, subsidies, loopholes, etcetera. In
other words, simplifying the tax code actually creates enough money to balance the
budget. The tax code never gets simplified. It only gets complicated.
So I'm gonna play devil's advocate. You you come up with this agenda and
(19:41):
everybody oh, yeah. You're gonna take care of the rich. They're gonna get not pay
the taxes. How about me? I'm struggling. Like how do we change the
narrative in this country so that everybody goes, to you it's common
sense. We have the tall poppy syndrome in Canada. We we
we have it in spades where if somebody does is successful we wanna,
you know, chop them down so that they don't stand out in life. We need
(20:02):
to do the exact opposite. So in order to change it, we need to elevate
the successful one first just like excellence candidates doing. How do you elevate
excellence? How do you how do you show it as a
beacon as opposed to an tax opportunity?
And the rhetoric that we're getting from government about excellence. We have
to start celebrating success. Here's another issue.
(20:26):
Jon brought it up, our natural resources. How important it is to our economy, but
more importantly, maybe to the western democracies? I'd rather have a
national North American energy strategy, and I'd rather
have my allies know that it's not Putin that's got the hand of natural gas,
but it's coming from Canada. How do we change this so the average voter
says bullshit? This is part of our strategy going
(20:47):
forward because the wealth that we create can set up future generations to
success. I think there's another key concept that we need to keep in mind, which
is trust. If you are in a team and you
trust one another, you know that the whole is gonna be
greater than the sum of the parts. So belief and trust,
very basic building blocks. From there, it does play into national
(21:10):
natural resources, which is this is a collective asset of our
nation. This is what we've been blessed with this. How do
we provide these things to a world
that's demanding them and needs them in a way that's
going to enrich us, education and health care and all
the things that are hallmarks of our nation, and also do it in a way
(21:31):
we're gonna be leaders in preserving the climate. These are the
things we have a conversation where we create consensus.
I'll do this, you do that, shared sacrifice
shared sacrifice. If you feel what you're contributing is somehow gonna
benefit you as well, then that creates again an opportunity
for people to say things like Jon is describing. Do you
(21:54):
know that if we just tax one another endlessly, we'll
create less wealth? Here's how we make more money. By
unleashing everybody, you're all gonna get an opportunity to make
the most of the digital economy, to make the most of whether
you work in resources. Your chance is gonna be dictated by you.
And when you get that success, it's going to be something that's
(22:16):
gonna be reflected in the success of everybody in our country.
In a moment, more of my in-depth conversation with Arlene Dickinson, Jon
Love, and Dany Assaf.
Hi. It's Tony Chapman. Investing in Canada? Well, that matters
to RBC. $500,000,000,000 in sustainable financing
(22:40):
to combat climate change. 500,000,000 for future launch.
A 10 year program to prepare youth for the jobs of tomorrow. Helping
to discover the next generation of Olympians, artists monetizing their
talents, women entrepreneurs pursuing their dreams, supporting mental
health, and so much more. Investing in Canada, well, that
matters to RBC.
(23:05):
On this special edition of Chatter That Manors, we're talking all things
Canada, past, present, and future, and joining me
are 3 of Canada's leading thinkers, Arlene Dickinson,
Jon Love, and Dany Assach.
Everything you're talking about sounds wonderful. I'm getting so excited. We're gonna lift
Canada, but, well, is that gonna get me elected in my riding? Is
(23:28):
that interest groups, the lobbyists that are taking care of me? All
these people whispering my ear. How do we get to the point, putting
narrative out saying, it absolutely is about Canada and future
Canadians prosperity. It's about personalizing, it's about your grandkids,
it's about people that are coming into this country, their success, they're chasing the
dream. So, it's worth going after it versus being torn
(23:50):
apart by fringes of society. Do we dare to
dream? If you look at some of the great speeches of
history, Martin Luther's Dare to Dream, Churchill's War Speeches, and so
on, They all have a common theme.
Are we able to be something better than we are
today? As Canadians, do we wanna
(24:12):
take on a big challenge? I'll give you a big challenge. Over
the next 30 years, India's growth of its
coal fired generating capacity, generate electricity,
will generate more emissions than Canada does as a country. Why
don't we, as a country, disintermediate the burning
of coal for energy globally? We've got all
(24:35):
the resources. We have all the skills. We have finances.
We are uniquely positioned to actually make a
difference in climate change if we want, and it
involves every province. Everybody's got a stake in this narrative. We
couldn't dare dream that we, in fact, could make
an impact. What we need is leadership. When I talk about tax cuts,
(24:58):
I'm not talking about tax cuts for the rich. God knows I don't need a
tax cut. We need to make sure we have get money in
people's pockets. That's what they're interested in, their standard of living. And
that's how I would I would do tax cuts. And if we, you know, if
we wanted to go down and really think about deregulation,
and how you know, what regulation's really not needed and what
(25:20):
frustrates the growth of business and what drives capital
and talent out of this country. Every time
I see capital and talent lead the country,
I see tax revenue also go with it. So I wanna build, and you
said we just need leadership. You started with the word leadership. I
would put up lawn signs for any one of you 3 if you ran for
(25:42):
politics. None of you wanna run because of the sit the
circumstances of our democracy right now. How do we
change that so that people of your caliber that can communicate, that
have a social conscience, that care about people, not just their own
pocketbooks, absolutely step into the public arena and
run? I think the political gain is
(26:05):
requires a very different skillset, but I don't have the skills
to be a politician. But why don't we look at a model where I think
it uses business skills very thoughtfully? In the
US, you elect a president who appoints a
cabinet, and that cabinet all comes from
anywhere he wants. It's not elected pea he or she
(26:27):
has the ability to select, you know, some of the
leading minds and and and and says to someone,
you know, Dany, I want to give you a role and it's 2 years or
it's 4 years. Here's the mandate. Here's the department. Go at
it. If we had the ability to do that in Canada, you
could attract lots of super high quality
(26:48):
talent that would be happy to work for a dollar a year
around a specific mission. Arlene? Yeah. I mean, when you think
about, like, finance minister Bill Moreau, who came from the
public private sector and had the mandate similar to what I think if
you talk to him today, he would say it was incredibly difficult to turn the
tide in terms of what his mandate was. And so, you know, what we're seeing
(27:10):
play out in the US is exactly what you're talking about here, which is we've
got one leader down there, who is
talking about the way things were. Let's go back to how it was. It was
better it it was better in the past. We wanna, you know, make America great
again. It was all about what we said earlier, like, the past was was so
beautiful. It wasn't. And then we've got another leader who talked about
(27:32):
hope and dreams and a vision for the future. There's this challenging
thing about communication, and and you know us better than anybody, Tony, to get your
message out there as a politician is so incredibly difficult because
things get crazily blown out of proportion. Why
don't we run well? I'm like you. I don't think I have the skills to
be a politician. I'm not very politically inclined. I'll say that I shouldn't
(27:54):
say. How do we change the circumstances of government?
I'm not anti democracy. I'm just saying everything else has changed. I don't your
business has changed, I have to believe, over 50 years. Entrepreneurship has changed.
Law's changed. Everything's changed. How do we change the conditions so
that people with a heart ahead and a bias for action
have an ability to influence how this country is run. We all have to think
(28:16):
about this, how we're gonna participate in our democracy.
My real job is I'm a competition lawyer, and I think of how do you
change the dynamics of any market? Maybe it's
ideas like we need a new party. You need
competition. You've got these parties which have had great
history. They've all done great things. It's not to disparage anybody.
(28:37):
But when things get locked in, you need a new
entrant. These folks have built businesses. They've seen the
great success and God willing, they'll see more. And you talk
about their strategy. And people will have memos, they'll
have PowerPoints, they'll have all kinds of things. You know, the one
thing that can put an immediate stop to all of that
(29:00):
is they pick up a paper, they get a call from a customer saying their
competitor did something unique. I'll tell you, that
clears the decks. Let's talk about immigration.
This country was built on immigrants. Some of my best podcasts, either
refugees or immigrants, it is what's made this country magical.
Now the narrative is so anti immigrant, and it's
(29:23):
becoming a put political football. And these are human lies. These are people, many of
them coming here and going, I've given up everything to come to Canada very
often for their kids. I'm a doctor. I'll drive an Uber if my kid's gonna
have a better life. What do we need to do as a country to
reclaim the sense that immigration matters and the right
immigration's gonna help lift us to where we need to go? Okay. So can you
(29:44):
imagine sitting around the cabinet table and say, why don't we grow
the population of Canada by 10% over, say,
3 or 4 years, which is what's hot? In this high growth environment,
everything's stressed. Health care, social infrastructure, everything's
stressed. We don't have enough houses, etcetera, etcetera. So, you know, the
growth strategy I'm pro growth. The growth strategy wasn't a company
(30:06):
accompanied by, what if you have growth? Like, it's amazing.
So in the Q2 of this year, we welcomed
250,000 new Canadians to Canada. And we
built enough houses for a 150,000 of
them. Now it doesn't take a brain surgeon to
say where are the other 100000 people supposed to
(30:29):
live. New Canadians have built enormous amount of wealth for all of
us and our country. We want more of them, and we need
a policy that is that is accompanied
by how do we support these people. We are a a mosaic
as a country. We are not a melting pot. We are comprised of many
different types of, ethnicities and cultures,
(30:51):
and that's what makes our country great. And when we bring in people who
have, ideas that come from, you know, whether let's say somebody comes from
Europe, where they're used to high density, small, you know, like we wanna
build mansions. Well, no. Maybe we need to build smaller homes and maybe we need
to we need to make them more affordable. And we need to figure out how
to, you know, ensure that everybody has an opportunity at home
(31:12):
ownership. If you're in BC, good luck. We know what the issues are.
But to your point, Toni, how do we fix this? Okay. Can I can I
give you just 2 sound bites on housing? Because I'm here. Yeah. You
know, in Toronto, city of Toronto, if you build an apartment building,
a third of the cost of the building Yeah. Are taxes. Sweet.
Okay. So if you didn't have all those taxes, you
(31:36):
could charge 2 thirds of the rent. And people like us would be super happy
about that because you are more likely to fill up the building.
Second thing is, to get a building built
typically takes 5 years of negotiation
with the city. We have an affordable housing project
that's now under construction. 420 it's Valhalla Business Park.
(31:58):
So 427 in Dundas. So this is affordable
housing, geothermal, zero carbon. K?
So you might think That would be attractive, but
we end up in this exhaustive struggle.
All 3 of my guests, Arlene Dickinson, Jon Love, and Dania Sapp, have
(32:21):
joined me previously on Chatter That Matters. Today, we're focusing
on what matters most to Canada.
AI. Venton, really, in Canada. This is, I've
been working in AI now for 4 months. It's either gonna be something that
allows you to soar or it's gonna be the greatest sledgehammer that ever hit you.
(32:41):
And there's nothing in the middle. What's your take on
how AI can play a role, positive
role in what we're talking about today in
finding a way to be much more efficient and much more
pragmatic in terms of how we shape policy and, introduce
policy in this country. AI is part of this digital
(33:04):
farmland, and we did invent it. So it's this is a
fascinating new experiment in how we're gonna go from
basically building the technology to how we commercialize it. So
oil, I don't know how many eras of
oil there was, booms, and we still didn't weren't able to refine it
and make the more, value added products. Critical
(33:26):
Minerals, we're gonna see. We're gonna take it out of the ground. Are we gonna
build those batteries? We're trying. Okay? But AI, this is
really our strength. We developed this technology. Are we
gonna be able to commercialize it? And where's the promise? So
I've seen statistics. They say that AI itself is gonna it's
7% to global GDP. That is several
(33:47):
7, 8, 9,000,000,000,000 dollars are gonna be added.
Not only that, the wealth that's gonna create the opportunity who
built Facebook? Who built Amazon? All these they were unfamiliar
names. Who is going to be those next
people who are gonna develop technology and AI that are gonna revolutionize our
way of life? They could be Canadian. And then when we
(34:10):
think of the potential of it and efficiency, another big thing to tie in,
productivity. We have a productivity problem.
AI is the solution to that. Just think of the things you'll be
able to do more efficiently. We were talking about it earlier today. Things that
used to take a year can take a day. Think about
in pharma. There are all these papers written over decades
(34:32):
about how this molecule interacts with that molecule, interact with that
molecule. They go into a desk or into a file folder. Now AI
can correlate decades of research to tell
you, boom, that's the molecule that's gonna cure this disease.
We have the people. We have the institutions. Our schools, what are our
strengths? In addition to minerals, our education
(34:54):
system, our universities, those are the gold
mines of the future. All those kids coming out of those
schools, those are where that best chapter is gonna be
written. So this is our moment to seize it. It is now.
Jon, I mean, if you were running on an election on
one thing that matters most to Canada, one thing that we say we're
(35:16):
all gonna get every voter to say, yes, that makes sense. What would it be?
Prosperity. Do you think voters are capable of understanding
prosperity? Because there's 2 things. You're gonna come in and talk about prosperity and I'm
gonna offer you universal healthcare. Or I'm gonna offer you free dental
care. Or I'm gonna offer you whatever free prize inside. What do we
need to do as a nation to make sure voters are voting not just for
(35:38):
today, but ultimately for what Canada can become? In
communication, there's two styles. There's those that can simplify
and that there's those that complicate. And, you know,
great leadership can take the concept of prosperity
and simplify that and make it personal to each of
(35:58):
us. Because while it's interesting to hear about
more social programs, how are they funded?
It's prosperity. While it's great to listen to think about
more education, more pick whatever you want, but it's all funded
by the same thing, which is more prosperity.
And prosperity doesn't happen in a vacuum.
(36:22):
Government's role is to set the stage, set the rules of the
game, and encourage prosperity. And
that is what I think a compelling leader could
galvanize the country. But it seems like such hard work when they're
just offering me something for free because what I understand Hard work.
No. But I'm just saying that as terms of reaching a voter, I'm talking
(36:44):
about your personal prosperity. Yeah. I'm talking about your standard of
living. I'm talking about, you know, if if we think there's a housing crisis because
we measure it by, you know, how many people, you know, don't have a house
or whatever, think about all the under housed. Those are people that
are in a one bedroom apartment that would prefer to be in a 2, etcetera.
Right? Because density in housing has
(37:07):
increased because people don't have options. You know, we've got a large
population that would run that would like to
improve their standard of living. So
that is prosperity, and I would make it personal to you
and the country. How do you make the debt personal? So I realized that
because I talked to a long lot of young people, they don't personalize the debt
(37:29):
as theirs. They think deficit is very different. Debt is simple.
I'm living on my grandchildren's bill because they
have to pay it back. Dany, I'm gonna talk to you in terms of some
major negotiations. Canada is a trading nation. We're an
export nation. What do we need to do to ensure
that our destiny is a matter of choice and not left to the chance or
(37:50):
the whim of maybe a new leader in the United States or what's
happening politically around the world? I think we need a clear eyed strategy
of how we're gonna create prosperity. So the number one thing behind that
is that your children are going to be better off than you.
That is the fundamental promise. And then from there, how do you create wealth?
You need people. They need to be educated and healthy,
(38:14):
just normal stuff. They need tools, a
hammer, a computer, whatever it is. They need infrastructure.
They need broadband, highways, whatever to go there. And at the end of that line,
whatever you do, you need 2 things to make those a reality.
You need capital to bring your idea really to life and give it
scale. That's the oxygen. And then finally, you need
(38:37):
to be able to sell it to somebody. How do
40,000,000 people create the kind of wealth and the standard of living we have
in a world of 8,000,000,000? You need to leverage
that. And that is through trade agreements. Look across the
world. We have our dear friends and allies. They will always
be our core partners. There's no doubt. Whether the president
(38:58):
comes or goes, whoever it is, we gotta negotiate in our
greatest self international interest to make sure that we get the best deal for
Canadians. But at the same time, we need to take a little bit of a
Swiss approach of a little bit of neutrality, look out to the
world, and say, who are our next trading
partners and make sure that we have strong connections built off of our
(39:19):
diverse population. Again, another one of our assets. People
here from all around the world who have connections there and to see that
those relationships are just as valued as our traditional
relationship. So, Dany, while we're at it, and it sounds wonderful, we probably have the
worst inter provincial trade agreements. I mean, we we have
more free better free trade with many countries around the world than we do inside
(39:42):
our borders. And, jeez, the last thing I wanna do is is,
impact somebody that might not get me elected. How do we change this country
so that there's free trade with them? I think it's simple. Does any one province
think you're gonna be wealthier alone than together? If you
do, good luck. Take a look around the world. It's
not so simple. We need to know we need to unify
(40:04):
here first to become stronger outside.
And that's the message we need to get, to with to across Canada,
within Canadians to know that this world is there's a lot of disruption,
there's a lot of transformation, there's a lot of risk. But, again, there's a lot
of opportunity in that if we come together here so we can be
stronger abroad. And Arlene, too
(40:26):
many talented individuals, entrepreneurs are
leaving this country. Too much capital is flowing away from this country.
What do we need to do because this country is entrepreneurs?
What do we need to do to, make it the
lifeblood going forward that not only are they gonna stay here
and build their businesses here, but the more Shopifys are gonna be here,
(40:49):
but we're gonna attract some of the best talent around the world because this is
the fertile ground to grow. We need to celebrate entrepreneurs. We
need to invest in entrepreneurs, and we need to buy from entrepreneurs. And if we
do those things, we will elevate entrepreneurs to a place
where they can actually prosper. You know, I always end my
chatter that matters podcast with my 3 takeaways. And,
(41:10):
Jon, what I took away from you, the most important word is prosperity.
Start selling a prosperity agenda. Let people know what it's like to have
that as a North Star and what it means for me personally if we're all
in it together. I think, Dany, your passion
and just the simple word of belief, how important it is to
believe in positivity and possibility, and
(41:32):
and what it would mean to sort of lift, elevate us so that it
switches on every day. And Arlene, interesting enough, that is
this concept of tall poppy. And I think you're right. If Terry Fox was, an
American, they would have torn down the Statue of Liberty and and built a Terry
Fox statue. Canada has had so many extraordinary things.
We don't make these people our heroes. We don't make them our crusaders. We don't
(41:54):
talk about the the employment they created, the wealth they mattered, how they've
culturally impacted this country. And I think we've gotta do a lot more of
elevating the tall poppy versus trying to to cut it off at the stem.
So, ladies and gentlemen, I think these 3 deserve an incredible round
of applause.
(42:16):
Once again, a special thanks to RBC for supporting Chata That Matters.
It's Tony Chapman. Thanks for listening, and let's chat soon.
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