June 25, 2025 • 31 mins
What happens when a lifelong dream clashes with a tough new reality? This episode follows the compelling journey of Dapo Bankole, who left everything behind in Nigeria to create a brighter future for his family in Canada.
But what awaited him wasn’t a red carpet—it was a steep climb of survival jobs, diminishing savings, and the gradual loss of self-worth.
Through honest storytelling and deep reflection, Dapo shares how mentorship, microloans, and community support not only rebuilt his life but also inspired him to build bridges for others. His transformation from a struggling newcomer to founder of The Immigrant Life serves as a powerful reminder of what’s possible when we stop wasting talent and start investing in human potential.
Joining the conversation is Andrea Barrack, Senior Vice President of Sustainability and Impact at RBC, who explains why RBC is supporting Windmill Microlending—a groundbreaking organization helping thousands of skilled newcomers reclaim their careers, dignity, and dreams.
A beautiful story of dreaming, doing and doing for others awaits.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Imagine walking in an immigrant shoes.
You leave everything you know behind.
The familiar becomes unfamiliar, the known
unknown. Certainty becomes uncertainty.
Why you're in the pursuit of possibility.
(00:27):
And even when others have blazed a path similar
to the one you're about to travel, no one but you
gets to carry the weight on your shoulders.
It's a tightrope. And with your family's hopes is
your balance pull. And undoubtedly
whispers questioning your resolve.
(00:52):
Yet some turn this tension into triumph. That dream never
changed. I just desired. And if you
can dream it, you can just become it. Dapo Bengkoli is one
of them. His story isn't just about surviving the immigrant experience.
It's about reinventing what it means to
arrive in a country like Canada. Where am I? That mental
(01:14):
stress was what affected my psychology, I
would say, because again, it affected my relationship with my wife, with my
kids. And today on Chatter that Matters, we unpack his
journey from crushed confidence to courageous contribution.
And now, how he's building bridges for. Others to cross,
giving them every support possible, removing all the unnecessary
(01:37):
bureaucracy and barriers in front of them so that we can
succeed as a nation.
Hi, it's Tony Chapman. Thank you for listening to Chatter that Matters, presented
by rbc. If you can please subscribe to the podcast
and ratings reviews, well, they're always welcome and they're always
(01:59):
appreciated.
Dapal Bengkoli, welcome to Chatter that Matters. Thank you,
Dapal. What I loved about reading is you talked about
dreaming of Canada for a very long time. And I think that
dream really started to happen in your mid teens.
Correct. What made you even think about Canada? What did you think and you
(02:21):
imagine would be welcoming for you here? Before Canada,
I just wanted to live abroad with kind of like
being boundless, being unrestricted, like whatever I did
really mattered. And you know, where I come from,
it's a lot of you need to know people and a lot of things like
that to really move up. And I felt I wanted an environment
(02:43):
where, you know, your hard work actually pays for you, that sort of thing,
that you had a lot of advancement and things. So that was really the dream.
A family friend I got to know about this country that I've
chosen to call home today, that Canada exists. And I
started to figure things out and just do my research.
I mean, I consider different countries, honestly, I consider the U.S. the
(03:06):
UK, Australia, New Zealand, and even the
Scandinavian nations, precisely Sweden. But I settled
for Canada. And you moved to Canada in your mid-30s, your early 30s, right?
Correct. What was the impetus from dreaming to. Doing for
me that Dream never changed. I
just desired. And maybe I've just been influenced
(03:29):
by my parents and my. The school I went to.
If you can dream it, you can just become it. Like, okay, I
want it and somebody has done it. And for me, that was in fact a
very good encouragement. The fact that somebody else in my cycle
had done done it. I'm like, oh, then nothing's stopping me. I just need to
figure out how it's going to work for me. The one thing that could have
(03:51):
held me back, of course, was my marriage. When I was courting
my wife, I remember I mentioned it to her. I'm like, hey, I
plan to live abroad. I think it's going to be Canada, but I'm not
sure when or how and all that. And I
just wanted her to be in alignment. The fact that I had her in support,
that gave me a stronger motivation that two of us were looking at the same
(04:13):
thing. And the other thing I liked is how you sort of packed your
knapsack before coming, you know, certificates you're earning, investing time
and money. Was that sort of advice you can give to others, that if
you set a goal that you start working towards it immediately, even
if that goal's not going to manifest for many years. It's important that every
day, or at least you can look back and say, I've done
(04:35):
something that's going to make this dream closer to reality.
No doubt about that. Like, I believe I'm a strong believer
in planning, in, you know, setting a goal and do something every
day, every day, every week, whatever cadence works for you. Just
make sure you're on it. Where a lot of us miss it. And
I fall into that trap too sometimes, is just
(04:58):
because you are not seeing something right doesn't mean that
it's not happening. You just don't know. There is that magical moment.
I never really know. There's something just tilts. It's
like a farming. When you put a seed in the soil,
you got to water it. There's a time you'll never see anything. You just have
to believe it's trust all the while, do all the hard work.
(05:20):
But it's spring now. I've started doing stuff in my garden here
in Compound. I'm not seeing anything, but I know it's happening.
So we got to stay the course for sure. We've looked at and talked
to a lot of newcomers, and very often they come to a new
country like Canada thinking it's a beautiful red carpet and
the streets are paved to gold. But what you find Is really a
(05:43):
steep staircase. It's complex. There's affordability issues and
stuff. What was your experience like when you first after all these years and you.
Arrive, you know, as I say, like what you ordered
versus what you got? Honestly,
it felt like a scam. At some point, I'm just like, whoa,
what have I gotten myself into? Right? But what
(06:05):
I've learned is you can plan all you want. Sometimes
things pan out, sometimes they don't pan out. So knowing when
to give up or when to re plan and re strategize and just get
up and keep moving, it was very shocking. The only difference is, for me,
the wait, it was painful because now it wasn't just me.
They say this wasn't just that, but now I had a wife. I had
(06:28):
two young kids, age 7, age 3 at the time, and I
had sold the dream to them. They bought into it. Everybody looked forward to it.
So it's a case of, okay, is it that daddy lied or daddy didn't do
his own work, or my husband, you know, so it was a mixed
bag of emotions, I dare say. So I'm curious about when, you know, you talk
about with your wife and your kids and they're counting on you and you sold
(06:50):
them the dream, how much pressure is that on you?
Because I think what you talk about is that within months of arriving, your
confidence was unraveling. There's a series of moments that knock the
window to your sales. Well, you've got to deal with that, but you've also got
to show some strength to your family, don't you? I think much of the
pressure was internal, was me. Definitely cannot look
(07:12):
back and say, hey, my kids put me under this pressure. But it was me
comparing where we were with where we're coming from
and the life we lived and that sort of thing to what was happening
to us and the fact that our savings was dwindling.
I'm used to our bank accounts getting replenished, you
know, periodically like that. But when you just see going down. And
(07:35):
what I knew at the time was I needed somebody
to employ me for me to earn money. But that was not
happening. So I think all that pressure, it was hard. And
one of the interviews I read you talked about stacking jobs that were
almost like survival jobs, you know, call center by
day, grocery, night shift, cargo unloading. I mean, it sounds
(07:57):
like there was a real barrier if you're getting the kind of work you are
capable of. How does that affect your psychology when
you realize. Realize that you're either not appreciated for your
talents or if in some cases what I think also happened to you, there was
some bias, the fact that. You were an immigrant, that impacted
me on multiple levels. My body, for instance. Two of the three
(08:20):
jobs that I did were more physical than mental. Also
not being able to sleep well was a problem. I barely slept, I don't
know, four or five hours every day. And
naturally that apart from the physical work that
left me depleted, you know, energy wise as well. Sometimes
I caught myself lashing out, just being irritable. Normally when you
(08:42):
don't even sleep well, you are not okay. You're dealing with all these things. So
it was tough on my mind. I wrestled with a,
like, I battled not looking down on myself a lot.
Where am I? What's going on? This is not what I look, you
know, look forward to. And that mental stress was what
affected my psychology, I would say, because again,
(09:04):
it affected my relationship with my wife, with my kids. The
distance was already there and I knew a lot of it was just me,
them as well, I guess because when push comes to shove, when
you get in the, in the ring, you just don't know how you're going to
respond. So I think I probably didn't respond well. But I'm
a person of faith, so I knew this was not going to last
(09:26):
forever. The problem was, when is it going to end? And you mentioned in that
the turning point came with the professional mentorship program.
It sounds like the olive branch was somebody out there saying, I can help
you get to where you want to go. And this is why I believe so
much in mentoring and even sponsorship these days. So
there was this organization that I got to know about them in 2012.
(09:48):
What they did was their focus on was just on immigrant professionals like
myself. You spend three months in class, like you go in the morning and
come back in the evening and they just take you through what does it
mean to. To work here. Like all the soft
skills and the expectations and the norms and so that
once we have the right opportunity, we'll be able to fit in
(10:10):
properly. It was really genuine. Like, these were people, they did
nothing else. They just focused on us completely. They were with us from morning till
night and spending time with us. For me, that was a breath
of like, fresh air. Now, you know, I could see somebody genuinely
interested help trying to help me to succeed. And the other thing they
did is after that classroom component being they go look
(10:32):
out for opportunities for each and every one of us,
no matter your background. They look for those opportunities, arrange
interviews, and they won't stay with you in the interview. They don't talk, they don't
do anything, they just stay there. That was part of the contract. That was what
opened the door for me. And with that, you were supposed to
work in that organization for three months unpaid,
(10:54):
but it was meant to be like a foot in the door kind of arrangement.
Once I went in, mine was for, of course like every other person was three
months. They handed over, I think three or four projects to
me. Day one, when normally when you get to a new company, all they're doing
is these are vision, these are mission. There was no time for that. Just
give me the project. Day four, my manager
(11:15):
then, who's become a friend now, he just came to me and said, hey, what's
your plan? What do you want? So I told them like, sure, I need
a full time role. I said I want to hire you in four days.
That changed everything and it
revalidated my sense of self worth
because I had already started to feel like maybe I'm just an
(11:38):
imposter. Maybe I actually didn't have the experience that I thought I had. How
did it feel coming home and telling your wife and your kids that
four days into this unpaid apprenticeship that you
had locked in a full time job? It must have been quite a. It must
be a wonderful conversation to have. I didn't know whether to cry,
you know, suddenly I saw hope.
(12:01):
It was just filled with joy. My kids couldn't really understand the difference though. It
was really my wife. I'm sure they saw something different
in me because again, I'd gotten very moody, very rational, I would dare
say. Because I remember one day, I always say
this. Our first one who is 20 now, he was
talking to my wife like I was there in the room. I was there. Why
(12:23):
is he always frowning? He, he. That was me at the time.
Of course that really got me down, like I was unhappy.
But definitely going home was very exciting, very, very
librating for me. My mental health was restored.
We returned depot. Bengkali and I talk about how
(12:43):
much talent arise in Canada and what we
need to do to unleash that talent.
Hi, it's Tony Chapman. Investing in Canada. Well, that matters.
To RBC. $500 billion in sustainable financing
to combat climate change. $500 million for future launch
(13:06):
a 10 year program to prepare youth for the jobs of tomorrow.
Helping to discover the next generation generation of Olympians. Artists
monetizing their talents. Woman entrepreneurs pursuing their dreams,
supporting mental health and so much more. Investing in Canada.
Well, that matters to RBC.
Dreams, we all have them.
(13:28):
Having a dream in life can provide direction,
motivation and a sense of purpose. I held
the dream to build a great life in Canada and be a
respected member of the society. It gave me energy.
And when the opportunity came to fulfill that dream,
(13:48):
it crashed and I burned.
Joining me today is De Paul Benkali. It's his journey
starts at age 16 with a Canadian dream. Mid 30s, he arrives in
Canada. That dream really manifests into a nightmare. There's
somebody giving him a hand up versus a handout. He finds his way
back. And today he's building bridges so that others
(14:12):
can travel with less friction and more fuel.
To fast forward the story a bit, because what I really love is
this experience with this mentorship program.
Your experiences coming to Canada and hitting wall after
wall, it led you to creating the immigrant life.
(14:33):
So tell me about the immigrant life because I think it's just. I know about
it, but tell my listeners about it because I think it's such a beautiful thing
that you're doing because it's almost like you're trying to
help others not to have the situation that you had.
When I gone through stuff, I just want to share that experience with people.
I just want people to know just so that hopefully they can
(14:54):
avoid my mistake. That was just it. So it's a place
where I just share. For me, the key thing that
differentiates what I do is authentic information. Because
out there you could Google anything, like everything is online you find. But is
it true? That's the question. People make stuff up, people
exaggerate a lot. People, you know, all sort of things. So in our
(15:16):
place, we. We just look for people who've been
through what we've gone through. People who, whatever stage of
integration, level they are, they could share their ideas, including myself,
of course. We just try to lie the path for others. And based on my
experience, I came across this thing, Zig Ziglar's Wheel of
Life. He says, for you to really thrive in
(15:39):
life, you got to focus on this, this, this, this, all this, not just one
area. So that's what we try to do so far. Now I've
just expanded on that a little bit. I call that the core
focus on career. Your career, your work, your business. That's one of
course on family, spiritual wellness, physical
wellness, mental wellness, your social network, financial.
(16:00):
Right, culture, money. We talk about money and all this, like, how do
you make money, how do you give it, how do you multiply, how do you
save it? Like all those kind of things. So that's all so for us, what
we do is it represents a total being something that
is not just work. Work is just one, just one part of it.
Because we feel for you to try, for you to be yourself,
(16:21):
to reach your full potential, you got to grow in all these areas. What's
in it for me is the joy of when I get messages from people,
thank you, saying, oh, I almost gave up. But you know, that
help, that relatable and they know it's genuine, right?
Like it's real. It's not made up stuff. So. So your name came to
me when I was talking to somebody at RBC and they said, you
(16:43):
have to talk to Papo about Windmill microlending.
Windmill was definitely a strategic part of my journey.
I was a client of Windmill at the time when I'd lost hope,
when financially and mentally I was stressed out.
I got a loan from them at that point where the rock
(17:04):
bottom, I'm like, okay, what else do I need to do that I have not
done? I found a course and I took it. I went into the
training. It brought back my confidence as well because
I was able to have meaningful, engaging conversations,
practical, even leading conversations in the training with people
who were here, who were doing the kind of work I really wanted to do.
(17:26):
It was a validation of my experience, of my expertise, of my
training and everything like that. So that was what Windmill did for me.
And in general, immigrants will struggle to find another
organization like Windmill. You get a low
fixed interest rate to finance the whole process of
integration. Currently it's at 6.7%. And it's not just
(17:48):
the money beyond that, the moment you take that loan, you, you
gain access to an organization that is filled with people
who are out to help you succeed. That's huge.
Knowing that somebody's with you on the journey, that takes out
a lot of stress. You have one on one coaching with people.
You become part of a community. They have this take.
(18:10):
You have up to like $15,000 that you can take from Windmill.
Guess what? You can use that money for anything. Let's say you are in a
low income job and the time you're going to
spend on that job trying to make money will prevent
you or will be a distraction for the exam you want to write, that sort
of thing. Windmill allows you to actually leave that job, use
(18:32):
part of the money, the loan you take to take care of your bills so
that you can focus strategically on your exams, right? And
come back and then they don't take like no processing fee. What
else do you really want with a One on one coach with
mentors. It's really, really, that's windmill does
I think over the last, since 2005, yeah,
(18:53):
they've helped over 13,000 people. The income
improvement for people who restart their careers is on the
average about three times whatever they were earning before they took that loan.
So for me, it's worth it. You talk about, you know, return
on investment. Let's talk about Canada. There's so much
noise now about immigrants. How many immigrants should we have?
(19:15):
Immigrants. What I want you to talk to the people
listening is how important immigrants are to Canada
and what Canada and Canadians need to do to give
you that kind of opportunity where you're not only
creating value for your life and your family, but also creating value for. Canada
when it comes to immigrants. Yes, that argument will always be there.
(19:38):
At the end of the day, Canada has a challenge. And the challenge is that
we have an aging population. What are we going to do about it? You know,
people's pension needs to get paid, work needs to get
done, people are retiring and all that. Who's going
to do all these things? The birth rate of
Canadians cannot keep up. It's established. There's nothing to argue
(20:01):
about there. So when immigrants,
particularly those who have the skill sets that we need,
when we're allowed to come in and access and
be able to contribute to the, you know, to give back
to the economy, it's huge today.
RBC says under utilization
(20:22):
of immigrants cost the Canadian economy
$50 billion every year. That's
2019. It's
costing us a lot more. 50 billion. What can we do with that?
For me, it's a win win for everybody. When immigrants come
in in the right numbers, appropriately
supported and equipped to thrive and succeed,
(20:45):
the economy wins, the local community wins. Whatever
amount of money we spend supporting these people like myself,
we get it back through taxes. So what's, what's the loss there?
What, what are we losing really? Nothing. You know, we talked about doctors in
healthcare, but I can tell you, DePaul, I've been in so many Ubers
and I always talk to people about where they're from. I realize that I'm
(21:07):
driving with somebody that ran a chemistry lab or was a physicist or used to
be a professor, and all they can do right now is drive. There's nothing wrong
with driving Uber, but they're not match their skill and their passion and their
pursuit in Canada. And I have to believe that not only
impacts them psychologically, it's not only a disservice
to them. Once again, a disservice. To Canada because we need that type of skill
(21:29):
layer. I would even argue that this probably
creates a bit of a revolving door. Well, if I can't get it here, I'm
going to get it elsewhere. We just count how many people coming in. We think
that's success, that's not success. Like what happens to people after they
come in. We need to focus on actual, what I'll call like
a skill utilization rate. For me, that is
(21:51):
supposed to be measuring how many skilled immigrants are
working in jobs that align with their level of education, field of
study and experience. It should be differentiated, you know,
from people working in low wage jobs. Or we should be talking
about is that whatever they are doing, is that a full match or is
that partial match. Right. With whatever it is that they
(22:13):
are doing, their expertise. And I think another thing we should also look
at as a new metrics to use in measuring success is
to track how many skilled immigrants actually remain in
Canada over the long term. This is going to be a long time. Maybe five
years, 10 years, 15 years after landing. I think we
need to be paying attention. There is a quiet exodus that is
(22:35):
happening. Some studies that I saw before I think says about
15% of immigrants, they usually leave Canada within 20 years.
But of recent there was another data that I saw that says about
30% of economic class newcomers like myself, they
they're willing to live within two years. It's like pouring
water into a basket after investing so much to even
(22:58):
get our water. So I think we need to start measuring this and paying
attention to those things. Otherwise we'll find ourselves in worse crisis
than necessary. Do I, do we have time for me to share just little
story? Yeah, please, we've got lots of time. Yeah. You know about six years
ago I had a life scare I would say and I had to
go in for an unscheduled surgery. After the
(23:20):
surgery I got assigned to a specialist who is a
senior by the way. He told me he was retiring. This is a
very experienced person. When we
have internationally trained physicians and we don't allow them
to practice. There's multiple reasons for this like, but I
just feel we need to simplify the process and
(23:42):
support them and all that like things like this. Supporting missions like
this will help ensure that more families can have
personal physicians, can have access to surgeons.
Again, it's proven data wise research. It's clear
locally trained physicians cannot support Canadian
groups. It's not possible. So we have to fast track how do we
(24:04):
ensure that the people that we've called that we've attracted. How do we ensure
that we can support them to quickly get back to
serving us? You know, DePaul, I always end my podcast with some
three takeaways and the first one was you said,
you know, my dream was always to be boundless.
To leave my country and go to a place where I felt I could
(24:26):
have a skip in the park and do whatever I did.
Everything that you talked about, getting ready for that movement, planning, you
never know. Trust in your own ability to figure things out. What
was sad to me is that when Canada opened his arms, instead of
being boundless, if anything, you were chained, marginalized, you were
dismissed because you maybe didn't have Canadian context.
(24:48):
To me, the juxtaposition of bringing people in that have the courage to leave
their homes and come to a new country. We shouldn't be putting handcuffs
on you. We should be giving you a springboard. The second thing is the word
me, which is also the first two letters. A mentor.
And so much initially of you was about how every
day that you were in this country, you were losing your sense of me,
(25:11):
your personality. All I've seen on your face is a smile, but there's
your kid talking about your frown and you were losing your sense of
self worth. And it was wonderful when that
mentor reached out and the mentor saw who me was
and that you went from day four of what was going to be a 90
day unpaid internship, how it must have felt to have that job
(25:33):
and know you're on your way is something we gotta be thinking about. As
Canadians, we have to personalize this because the more we can give
the me of the world a sense of who they are, the better we'll be
forward. And the last thing is this concept of return on investment. This
return on investment that you made in yourself in terms of your
preparation, this return on investment we certainly have seen
(25:55):
when we set people up for success. It's a return
on not only who they are and their dignity and their
strength and their courage with their family, but also their community. And
there's return on investment with windmills not measuring it
in terms of your typical risk and reward. What they're
much more interested in is focusing on you taking
(26:17):
risks to find your reward. All of those three things is
a very interesting insight for me, is that let people
be boundless when they come to Canada because you've done so much to get here,
really put mentorship in place for people so that they feel
that they have a helping hand. And the last thing is
understand that their return on investment is going to be, collectively, Canada's return on
(26:39):
investment. Those are key takeaways for sure. What
I'm also hoping for is that
people, organizations, and even the Canadian government will support
an organization like Windmill and more out there,
because it just makes sense.
(27:01):
Joining me now is Andrea Barrick. She's a senior VP of sustainability and
impact at rbc. Andrea, welcome back to Chatter that
Matters. Thanks, Tony. So great to be here again. So I want to talk
about one initiative, talking about Windmill Microlending. Not
only what this organization does, but the fact that RBC has
stepped in with a 5 million donation. Give me a sense of
(27:24):
what's your take on what they're doing and why did you feel that it
mattered to the point where you're willing to make such a donation? Yeah, Windmill
is just such an impactful organization.
I think that is really at the center of solving a
massive issue for Canadian prosperity, which is how do we better
integrate newcomers who are skilled into our
(27:46):
economy, which actually boosts all of our prosperity. Right.
And creates the kind of communities that we all want to live in.
It's almost like a micro finance sort of idea, is to
say, you know, sometimes there are these gaps that in total
monetary terms, you know, don't seem that large. For a bank, they're not
that large. But for individuals who've just come into country,
(28:09):
they can feel insurmountable, make the difference on whether or not
a newcomer can apply their skills and credentials and
to our economy and to the jobs that we need here or not.
And so they've got this ability to help sort of bridge that gap from
a financing perspective. But what's sort of magic about it is they
don't just stop there. Right. They then say, well, what else is required
(28:33):
to support that person through mentorship, through,
you know, financial literacy and training, through helping to sort of
integrate kind of culturally into the workplace here. What does that look like?
Building networks that are really, really going to help someone to
succeed. And so I think it is both filling the gap financially
and that wraparound that makes them so successful. The narrative in
(28:55):
Canada, sadly, has in some ways turned against
newcomers. The rhetoric is, it's, you know, overpowering
our social net. We don't have the housing forum, but the other side
of it is if we don't bring immigration in Canada, as a population will
die off. What's your advice for my listeners?
To realize that newcomers are really going to be
(29:18):
the lifeblood of our future economy. And it's things like Windmill
that lets them hit the ground running. Yeah. And unfortunately, you
know, anytime that you have a segment of the population where they're sort of
all painted with the same brush, it's probably unhelpful. Right. And so we
have newcomers that Windmill serves that are
highly skilled professionals that have a real contribution to make to
(29:41):
Canada if we can help them. We have also
led in newcomers that don't have those skills and aren't contributing
as much to the economy. And in fact, you know, are seen as being more
of a drag on the system. And so I think it's, like, not
helpful for us to just sort of say, oh, all newcomers are sort of the
same. They're not. Just as you and I are not the same. Canada
(30:02):
has a rich history of bringing in highly
skilled immigrants to help our economy in the areas where we need it
the most. Windmill has tapped into that and said,
how do we actually help them to bridge so that those skills can be
applied more quickly? I know you make a major impact
working in the job you do at rbc. These are words of wisdom that we
(30:25):
can all benefit from. So I appreciate you joining me in Chatter the Manor. Always
nice to chat with you, Tony.
Once again, a special thanks to RBC for supporting Chatter that Matters.
It's Tony Chapman. Thanks for listening and let's chat soon.
Imagine walking in an immigrant shoes.
You leave everything you know behind.
The familiar becomes unfamiliar, the known
unknown. Certainty becomes uncertainty.
Why you're in the pursuit of possibility.
(00:27):
And even when others have blazed a path similar
to the one you're about to travel, no one but you
gets to carry the weight on your shoulders.
It's a tightrope. And with your family's hopes is
your balance pull. And undoubtedly
whispers questioning your resolve.
(00:52):
Yet some turn this tension into triumph. That dream never
changed. I just desired. And if you
can dream it, you can just become it. Dapo Bengkoli is one
of them. His story isn't just about surviving the immigrant experience.
It's about reinventing what it means to
arrive in a country like Canada. Where am I? That mental
(01:14):
stress was what affected my psychology, I
would say, because again, it affected my relationship with my wife, with my
kids. And today on Chatter that Matters, we unpack his
journey from crushed confidence to courageous contribution.
And now, how he's building bridges for. Others to cross,
giving them every support possible, removing all the unnecessary
(01:37):
bureaucracy and barriers in front of them so that we can
succeed as a nation.
Hi, it's Tony Chapman. Thank you for listening to Chatter that Matters, presented
by rbc. If you can please subscribe to the podcast
and ratings reviews, well, they're always welcome and they're always
(01:59):
appreciated.
Dapal Bengkoli, welcome to Chatter that Matters. Thank you,
Dapal. What I loved about reading is you talked about
dreaming of Canada for a very long time. And I think that
dream really started to happen in your mid teens.
Correct. What made you even think about Canada? What did you think and you
(02:21):
imagine would be welcoming for you here? Before Canada,
I just wanted to live abroad with kind of like
being boundless, being unrestricted, like whatever I did
really mattered. And you know, where I come from,
it's a lot of you need to know people and a lot of things like
that to really move up. And I felt I wanted an environment
(02:43):
where, you know, your hard work actually pays for you, that sort of thing,
that you had a lot of advancement and things. So that was really the dream.
A family friend I got to know about this country that I've
chosen to call home today, that Canada exists. And I
started to figure things out and just do my research.
I mean, I consider different countries, honestly, I consider the U.S. the
(03:06):
UK, Australia, New Zealand, and even the
Scandinavian nations, precisely Sweden. But I settled
for Canada. And you moved to Canada in your mid-30s, your early 30s, right?
Correct. What was the impetus from dreaming to. Doing for
me that Dream never changed. I
just desired. And maybe I've just been influenced
(03:29):
by my parents and my. The school I went to.
If you can dream it, you can just become it. Like, okay, I
want it and somebody has done it. And for me, that was in fact a
very good encouragement. The fact that somebody else in my cycle
had done done it. I'm like, oh, then nothing's stopping me. I just need to
figure out how it's going to work for me. The one thing that could have
(03:51):
held me back, of course, was my marriage. When I was courting
my wife, I remember I mentioned it to her. I'm like, hey, I
plan to live abroad. I think it's going to be Canada, but I'm not
sure when or how and all that. And I
just wanted her to be in alignment. The fact that I had her in support,
that gave me a stronger motivation that two of us were looking at the same
(04:13):
thing. And the other thing I liked is how you sort of packed your
knapsack before coming, you know, certificates you're earning, investing time
and money. Was that sort of advice you can give to others, that if
you set a goal that you start working towards it immediately, even
if that goal's not going to manifest for many years. It's important that every
day, or at least you can look back and say, I've done
(04:35):
something that's going to make this dream closer to reality.
No doubt about that. Like, I believe I'm a strong believer
in planning, in, you know, setting a goal and do something every
day, every day, every week, whatever cadence works for you. Just
make sure you're on it. Where a lot of us miss it. And
I fall into that trap too sometimes, is just
(04:58):
because you are not seeing something right doesn't mean that
it's not happening. You just don't know. There is that magical moment.
I never really know. There's something just tilts. It's
like a farming. When you put a seed in the soil,
you got to water it. There's a time you'll never see anything. You just have
to believe it's trust all the while, do all the hard work.
(05:20):
But it's spring now. I've started doing stuff in my garden here
in Compound. I'm not seeing anything, but I know it's happening.
So we got to stay the course for sure. We've looked at and talked
to a lot of newcomers, and very often they come to a new
country like Canada thinking it's a beautiful red carpet and
the streets are paved to gold. But what you find Is really a
(05:43):
steep staircase. It's complex. There's affordability issues and
stuff. What was your experience like when you first after all these years and you.
Arrive, you know, as I say, like what you ordered
versus what you got? Honestly,
it felt like a scam. At some point, I'm just like, whoa,
what have I gotten myself into? Right? But what
(06:05):
I've learned is you can plan all you want. Sometimes
things pan out, sometimes they don't pan out. So knowing when
to give up or when to re plan and re strategize and just get
up and keep moving, it was very shocking. The only difference is, for me,
the wait, it was painful because now it wasn't just me.
They say this wasn't just that, but now I had a wife. I had
(06:28):
two young kids, age 7, age 3 at the time, and I
had sold the dream to them. They bought into it. Everybody looked forward to it.
So it's a case of, okay, is it that daddy lied or daddy didn't do
his own work, or my husband, you know, so it was a mixed
bag of emotions, I dare say. So I'm curious about when, you know, you talk
about with your wife and your kids and they're counting on you and you sold
(06:50):
them the dream, how much pressure is that on you?
Because I think what you talk about is that within months of arriving, your
confidence was unraveling. There's a series of moments that knock the
window to your sales. Well, you've got to deal with that, but you've also got
to show some strength to your family, don't you? I think much of the
pressure was internal, was me. Definitely cannot look
(07:12):
back and say, hey, my kids put me under this pressure. But it was me
comparing where we were with where we're coming from
and the life we lived and that sort of thing to what was happening
to us and the fact that our savings was dwindling.
I'm used to our bank accounts getting replenished, you
know, periodically like that. But when you just see going down. And
(07:35):
what I knew at the time was I needed somebody
to employ me for me to earn money. But that was not
happening. So I think all that pressure, it was hard. And
one of the interviews I read you talked about stacking jobs that were
almost like survival jobs, you know, call center by
day, grocery, night shift, cargo unloading. I mean, it sounds
(07:57):
like there was a real barrier if you're getting the kind of work you are
capable of. How does that affect your psychology when
you realize. Realize that you're either not appreciated for your
talents or if in some cases what I think also happened to you, there was
some bias, the fact that. You were an immigrant, that impacted
me on multiple levels. My body, for instance. Two of the three
(08:20):
jobs that I did were more physical than mental. Also
not being able to sleep well was a problem. I barely slept, I don't
know, four or five hours every day. And
naturally that apart from the physical work that
left me depleted, you know, energy wise as well. Sometimes
I caught myself lashing out, just being irritable. Normally when you
(08:42):
don't even sleep well, you are not okay. You're dealing with all these things. So
it was tough on my mind. I wrestled with a,
like, I battled not looking down on myself a lot.
Where am I? What's going on? This is not what I look, you
know, look forward to. And that mental stress was what
affected my psychology, I would say, because again,
(09:04):
it affected my relationship with my wife, with my kids. The
distance was already there and I knew a lot of it was just me,
them as well, I guess because when push comes to shove, when
you get in the, in the ring, you just don't know how you're going to
respond. So I think I probably didn't respond well. But I'm
a person of faith, so I knew this was not going to last
(09:26):
forever. The problem was, when is it going to end? And you mentioned in that
the turning point came with the professional mentorship program.
It sounds like the olive branch was somebody out there saying, I can help
you get to where you want to go. And this is why I believe so
much in mentoring and even sponsorship these days. So
there was this organization that I got to know about them in 2012.
(09:48):
What they did was their focus on was just on immigrant professionals like
myself. You spend three months in class, like you go in the morning and
come back in the evening and they just take you through what does it
mean to. To work here. Like all the soft
skills and the expectations and the norms and so that
once we have the right opportunity, we'll be able to fit in
(10:10):
properly. It was really genuine. Like, these were people, they did
nothing else. They just focused on us completely. They were with us from morning till
night and spending time with us. For me, that was a breath
of like, fresh air. Now, you know, I could see somebody genuinely
interested help trying to help me to succeed. And the other thing they
did is after that classroom component being they go look
(10:32):
out for opportunities for each and every one of us,
no matter your background. They look for those opportunities, arrange
interviews, and they won't stay with you in the interview. They don't talk, they don't
do anything, they just stay there. That was part of the contract. That was what
opened the door for me. And with that, you were supposed to
work in that organization for three months unpaid,
(10:54):
but it was meant to be like a foot in the door kind of arrangement.
Once I went in, mine was for, of course like every other person was three
months. They handed over, I think three or four projects to
me. Day one, when normally when you get to a new company, all they're doing
is these are vision, these are mission. There was no time for that. Just
give me the project. Day four, my manager
(11:15):
then, who's become a friend now, he just came to me and said, hey, what's
your plan? What do you want? So I told them like, sure, I need
a full time role. I said I want to hire you in four days.
That changed everything and it
revalidated my sense of self worth
because I had already started to feel like maybe I'm just an
(11:38):
imposter. Maybe I actually didn't have the experience that I thought I had. How
did it feel coming home and telling your wife and your kids that
four days into this unpaid apprenticeship that you
had locked in a full time job? It must have been quite a. It must
be a wonderful conversation to have. I didn't know whether to cry,
you know, suddenly I saw hope.
(12:01):
It was just filled with joy. My kids couldn't really understand the difference though. It
was really my wife. I'm sure they saw something different
in me because again, I'd gotten very moody, very rational, I would dare
say. Because I remember one day, I always say
this. Our first one who is 20 now, he was
talking to my wife like I was there in the room. I was there. Why
(12:23):
is he always frowning? He, he. That was me at the time.
Of course that really got me down, like I was unhappy.
But definitely going home was very exciting, very, very
librating for me. My mental health was restored.
We returned depot. Bengkali and I talk about how
(12:43):
much talent arise in Canada and what we
need to do to unleash that talent.
Hi, it's Tony Chapman. Investing in Canada. Well, that matters.
To RBC. $500 billion in sustainable financing
to combat climate change. $500 million for future launch
(13:06):
a 10 year program to prepare youth for the jobs of tomorrow.
Helping to discover the next generation generation of Olympians. Artists
monetizing their talents. Woman entrepreneurs pursuing their dreams,
supporting mental health and so much more. Investing in Canada.
Well, that matters to RBC.
Dreams, we all have them.
(13:28):
Having a dream in life can provide direction,
motivation and a sense of purpose. I held
the dream to build a great life in Canada and be a
respected member of the society. It gave me energy.
And when the opportunity came to fulfill that dream,
(13:48):
it crashed and I burned.
Joining me today is De Paul Benkali. It's his journey
starts at age 16 with a Canadian dream. Mid 30s, he arrives in
Canada. That dream really manifests into a nightmare. There's
somebody giving him a hand up versus a handout. He finds his way
back. And today he's building bridges so that others
(14:12):
can travel with less friction and more fuel.
To fast forward the story a bit, because what I really love is
this experience with this mentorship program.
Your experiences coming to Canada and hitting wall after
wall, it led you to creating the immigrant life.
(14:33):
So tell me about the immigrant life because I think it's just. I know about
it, but tell my listeners about it because I think it's such a beautiful thing
that you're doing because it's almost like you're trying to
help others not to have the situation that you had.
When I gone through stuff, I just want to share that experience with people.
I just want people to know just so that hopefully they can
(14:54):
avoid my mistake. That was just it. So it's a place
where I just share. For me, the key thing that
differentiates what I do is authentic information. Because
out there you could Google anything, like everything is online you find. But is
it true? That's the question. People make stuff up, people
exaggerate a lot. People, you know, all sort of things. So in our
(15:16):
place, we. We just look for people who've been
through what we've gone through. People who, whatever stage of
integration, level they are, they could share their ideas, including myself,
of course. We just try to lie the path for others. And based on my
experience, I came across this thing, Zig Ziglar's Wheel of
Life. He says, for you to really thrive in
(15:39):
life, you got to focus on this, this, this, this, all this, not just one
area. So that's what we try to do so far. Now I've
just expanded on that a little bit. I call that the core
focus on career. Your career, your work, your business. That's one of
course on family, spiritual wellness, physical
wellness, mental wellness, your social network, financial.
(16:00):
Right, culture, money. We talk about money and all this, like, how do
you make money, how do you give it, how do you multiply, how do you
save it? Like all those kind of things. So that's all so for us, what
we do is it represents a total being something that
is not just work. Work is just one, just one part of it.
Because we feel for you to try, for you to be yourself,
(16:21):
to reach your full potential, you got to grow in all these areas. What's
in it for me is the joy of when I get messages from people,
thank you, saying, oh, I almost gave up. But you know, that
help, that relatable and they know it's genuine, right?
Like it's real. It's not made up stuff. So. So your name came to
me when I was talking to somebody at RBC and they said, you
(16:43):
have to talk to Papo about Windmill microlending.
Windmill was definitely a strategic part of my journey.
I was a client of Windmill at the time when I'd lost hope,
when financially and mentally I was stressed out.
I got a loan from them at that point where the rock
(17:04):
bottom, I'm like, okay, what else do I need to do that I have not
done? I found a course and I took it. I went into the
training. It brought back my confidence as well because
I was able to have meaningful, engaging conversations,
practical, even leading conversations in the training with people
who were here, who were doing the kind of work I really wanted to do.
(17:26):
It was a validation of my experience, of my expertise, of my
training and everything like that. So that was what Windmill did for me.
And in general, immigrants will struggle to find another
organization like Windmill. You get a low
fixed interest rate to finance the whole process of
integration. Currently it's at 6.7%. And it's not just
(17:48):
the money beyond that, the moment you take that loan, you, you
gain access to an organization that is filled with people
who are out to help you succeed. That's huge.
Knowing that somebody's with you on the journey, that takes out
a lot of stress. You have one on one coaching with people.
You become part of a community. They have this take.
(18:10):
You have up to like $15,000 that you can take from Windmill.
Guess what? You can use that money for anything. Let's say you are in a
low income job and the time you're going to
spend on that job trying to make money will prevent
you or will be a distraction for the exam you want to write, that sort
of thing. Windmill allows you to actually leave that job, use
(18:32):
part of the money, the loan you take to take care of your bills so
that you can focus strategically on your exams, right? And
come back and then they don't take like no processing fee. What
else do you really want with a One on one coach with
mentors. It's really, really, that's windmill does
I think over the last, since 2005, yeah,
(18:53):
they've helped over 13,000 people. The income
improvement for people who restart their careers is on the
average about three times whatever they were earning before they took that loan.
So for me, it's worth it. You talk about, you know, return
on investment. Let's talk about Canada. There's so much
noise now about immigrants. How many immigrants should we have?
(19:15):
Immigrants. What I want you to talk to the people
listening is how important immigrants are to Canada
and what Canada and Canadians need to do to give
you that kind of opportunity where you're not only
creating value for your life and your family, but also creating value for. Canada
when it comes to immigrants. Yes, that argument will always be there.
(19:38):
At the end of the day, Canada has a challenge. And the challenge is that
we have an aging population. What are we going to do about it? You know,
people's pension needs to get paid, work needs to get
done, people are retiring and all that. Who's going
to do all these things? The birth rate of
Canadians cannot keep up. It's established. There's nothing to argue
(20:01):
about there. So when immigrants,
particularly those who have the skill sets that we need,
when we're allowed to come in and access and
be able to contribute to the, you know, to give back
to the economy, it's huge today.
RBC says under utilization
(20:22):
of immigrants cost the Canadian economy
$50 billion every year. That's
2019. It's
costing us a lot more. 50 billion. What can we do with that?
For me, it's a win win for everybody. When immigrants come
in in the right numbers, appropriately
supported and equipped to thrive and succeed,
(20:45):
the economy wins, the local community wins. Whatever
amount of money we spend supporting these people like myself,
we get it back through taxes. So what's, what's the loss there?
What, what are we losing really? Nothing. You know, we talked about doctors in
healthcare, but I can tell you, DePaul, I've been in so many Ubers
and I always talk to people about where they're from. I realize that I'm
(21:07):
driving with somebody that ran a chemistry lab or was a physicist or used to
be a professor, and all they can do right now is drive. There's nothing wrong
with driving Uber, but they're not match their skill and their passion and their
pursuit in Canada. And I have to believe that not only
impacts them psychologically, it's not only a disservice
to them. Once again, a disservice. To Canada because we need that type of skill
(21:29):
layer. I would even argue that this probably
creates a bit of a revolving door. Well, if I can't get it here, I'm
going to get it elsewhere. We just count how many people coming in. We think
that's success, that's not success. Like what happens to people after they
come in. We need to focus on actual, what I'll call like
a skill utilization rate. For me, that is
(21:51):
supposed to be measuring how many skilled immigrants are
working in jobs that align with their level of education, field of
study and experience. It should be differentiated, you know,
from people working in low wage jobs. Or we should be talking
about is that whatever they are doing, is that a full match or is
that partial match. Right. With whatever it is that they
(22:13):
are doing, their expertise. And I think another thing we should also look
at as a new metrics to use in measuring success is
to track how many skilled immigrants actually remain in
Canada over the long term. This is going to be a long time. Maybe five
years, 10 years, 15 years after landing. I think we
need to be paying attention. There is a quiet exodus that is
(22:35):
happening. Some studies that I saw before I think says about
15% of immigrants, they usually leave Canada within 20 years.
But of recent there was another data that I saw that says about
30% of economic class newcomers like myself, they
they're willing to live within two years. It's like pouring
water into a basket after investing so much to even
(22:58):
get our water. So I think we need to start measuring this and paying
attention to those things. Otherwise we'll find ourselves in worse crisis
than necessary. Do I, do we have time for me to share just little
story? Yeah, please, we've got lots of time. Yeah. You know about six years
ago I had a life scare I would say and I had to
go in for an unscheduled surgery. After the
(23:20):
surgery I got assigned to a specialist who is a
senior by the way. He told me he was retiring. This is a
very experienced person. When we
have internationally trained physicians and we don't allow them
to practice. There's multiple reasons for this like, but I
just feel we need to simplify the process and
(23:42):
support them and all that like things like this. Supporting missions like
this will help ensure that more families can have
personal physicians, can have access to surgeons.
Again, it's proven data wise research. It's clear
locally trained physicians cannot support Canadian
groups. It's not possible. So we have to fast track how do we
(24:04):
ensure that the people that we've called that we've attracted. How do we ensure
that we can support them to quickly get back to
serving us? You know, DePaul, I always end my podcast with some
three takeaways and the first one was you said,
you know, my dream was always to be boundless.
To leave my country and go to a place where I felt I could
(24:26):
have a skip in the park and do whatever I did.
Everything that you talked about, getting ready for that movement, planning, you
never know. Trust in your own ability to figure things out. What
was sad to me is that when Canada opened his arms, instead of
being boundless, if anything, you were chained, marginalized, you were
dismissed because you maybe didn't have Canadian context.
(24:48):
To me, the juxtaposition of bringing people in that have the courage to leave
their homes and come to a new country. We shouldn't be putting handcuffs
on you. We should be giving you a springboard. The second thing is the word
me, which is also the first two letters. A mentor.
And so much initially of you was about how every
day that you were in this country, you were losing your sense of me,
(25:11):
your personality. All I've seen on your face is a smile, but there's
your kid talking about your frown and you were losing your sense of
self worth. And it was wonderful when that
mentor reached out and the mentor saw who me was
and that you went from day four of what was going to be a 90
day unpaid internship, how it must have felt to have that job
(25:33):
and know you're on your way is something we gotta be thinking about. As
Canadians, we have to personalize this because the more we can give
the me of the world a sense of who they are, the better we'll be
forward. And the last thing is this concept of return on investment. This
return on investment that you made in yourself in terms of your
preparation, this return on investment we certainly have seen
(25:55):
when we set people up for success. It's a return
on not only who they are and their dignity and their
strength and their courage with their family, but also their community. And
there's return on investment with windmills not measuring it
in terms of your typical risk and reward. What they're
much more interested in is focusing on you taking
(26:17):
risks to find your reward. All of those three things is
a very interesting insight for me, is that let people
be boundless when they come to Canada because you've done so much to get here,
really put mentorship in place for people so that they feel
that they have a helping hand. And the last thing is
understand that their return on investment is going to be, collectively, Canada's return on
(26:39):
investment. Those are key takeaways for sure. What
I'm also hoping for is that
people, organizations, and even the Canadian government will support
an organization like Windmill and more out there,
because it just makes sense.
(27:01):
Joining me now is Andrea Barrick. She's a senior VP of sustainability and
impact at rbc. Andrea, welcome back to Chatter that
Matters. Thanks, Tony. So great to be here again. So I want to talk
about one initiative, talking about Windmill Microlending. Not
only what this organization does, but the fact that RBC has
stepped in with a 5 million donation. Give me a sense of
(27:24):
what's your take on what they're doing and why did you feel that it
mattered to the point where you're willing to make such a donation? Yeah, Windmill
is just such an impactful organization.
I think that is really at the center of solving a
massive issue for Canadian prosperity, which is how do we better
integrate newcomers who are skilled into our
(27:46):
economy, which actually boosts all of our prosperity. Right.
And creates the kind of communities that we all want to live in.
It's almost like a micro finance sort of idea, is to
say, you know, sometimes there are these gaps that in total
monetary terms, you know, don't seem that large. For a bank, they're not
that large. But for individuals who've just come into country,
(28:09):
they can feel insurmountable, make the difference on whether or not
a newcomer can apply their skills and credentials and
to our economy and to the jobs that we need here or not.
And so they've got this ability to help sort of bridge that gap from
a financing perspective. But what's sort of magic about it is they
don't just stop there. Right. They then say, well, what else is required
(28:33):
to support that person through mentorship, through,
you know, financial literacy and training, through helping to sort of
integrate kind of culturally into the workplace here. What does that look like?
Building networks that are really, really going to help someone to
succeed. And so I think it is both filling the gap financially
and that wraparound that makes them so successful. The narrative in
(28:55):
Canada, sadly, has in some ways turned against
newcomers. The rhetoric is, it's, you know, overpowering
our social net. We don't have the housing forum, but the other side
of it is if we don't bring immigration in Canada, as a population will
die off. What's your advice for my listeners?
To realize that newcomers are really going to be
(29:18):
the lifeblood of our future economy. And it's things like Windmill
that lets them hit the ground running. Yeah. And unfortunately, you
know, anytime that you have a segment of the population where they're sort of
all painted with the same brush, it's probably unhelpful. Right. And so we
have newcomers that Windmill serves that are
highly skilled professionals that have a real contribution to make to
(29:41):
Canada if we can help them. We have also
led in newcomers that don't have those skills and aren't contributing
as much to the economy. And in fact, you know, are seen as being more
of a drag on the system. And so I think it's, like, not
helpful for us to just sort of say, oh, all newcomers are sort of the
same. They're not. Just as you and I are not the same. Canada
(30:02):
has a rich history of bringing in highly
skilled immigrants to help our economy in the areas where we need it
the most. Windmill has tapped into that and said,
how do we actually help them to bridge so that those skills can be
applied more quickly? I know you make a major impact
working in the job you do at rbc. These are words of wisdom that we
(30:25):
can all benefit from. So I appreciate you joining me in Chatter the Manor. Always
nice to chat with you, Tony.
Once again, a special thanks to RBC for supporting Chatter that Matters.
It's Tony Chapman. Thanks for listening and let's chat soon.
Popular Podcasts
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!