January 16, 2025 • 34 mins
"It’s so easy to become vulnerable online. Your face and name aren’t involved; you can hide behind a user name, an avatar."
I begin this powerful and profoundly moving episode of Chatter That Matters by sharing a personal story of narrowly escaping a predator during my youth, setting the stage for a meaningful conversation about online safety. I then invite my guest, Harrison Haynes, a brave young advocate who recounts his harrowing experience of being manipulated by an online predator as a teenager. He reveals the emotional toll, the subtle manipulative tactics used, and how this experience impacted his family and personal growth.
Harrison’s story is a testament to resilience. He shares his journey to forgiveness, the importance of disconnecting from technology, and his mission to help others navigate the dangers of the digital world. He emphasizes the need for open conversations about mental health, self-worth and community in the face of the challenges posed by social media and online predators.
Later in the episode, Margot Denomme, a former Crown Attorney with twenty-five years of front-line experience and the author of The Family Smartphone Guide, joins the show. Margot offers practical advice for parents on navigating the digital landscape safely, emphasizing the importance of boundaries, digital literacy, and the concept of a “family smartphone contract.”
Key Takeaways:
1. The Reality of Online Predators: Harrison sheds light on the manipulative tactics predators use to lure vulnerable youth and the devastating consequences.
2. The Power of Community: Despite his painful journey, Harrison found healing through forgiveness and introspection, advocating for a life less tethered to technology.
3. Creating Safe Digital Spaces: Margot Denomme provides parents with actionable tips to protect their children from online dangers, including delaying smartphone access and fostering self-esteem.
4. A Call to Awareness: Harrison and Margot stress the need for open dialogue between parents and children about digital safety, mental health, and the risks of an unfiltered online world.
To connect with Harrison Haynes, info@wiredhuman.org
To purchase Margot Denomme’s book, https://www.amazon.ca/Family-Smartphone-Guide-Navigate-Smartphones/dp/0992034043
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
I remember a day in my life as if it was yesterday. I was
only 17. I was hitchhiking to college. It's an awkward
ride as it involved 2 very different legs, one that went
West and one that headed north. I carried an army
satchel back then. This was pre knapsack and ended up with the books I would
need that day, and a car pulled over and offered me a ride. And
(00:25):
when I mentioned where I was going, the drop off point that requires someone to
head north to my final destination, He offered to take me there, said
he had nothing else to do. Well, I thought it was my lucky day.
As the car pulled away, almost immediately, the
conversation started to get weird. He want to know what a good looking guy
like me did for fun. Did I have a girlfriend? Start asking me about
(00:48):
my sex life. We were traveling about a 100
kilometers an hour. My door was locked and my spider sense went into
high gear. This wasn't turning out to be that lucky
day. I started asking if I wanted to pull over and find a place
to have breakfast or even spend the day together playing hooky. I had
the sense to maintain the conversation, talk to him about the need to get to
(01:09):
school for an important exam. Maybe we could meet afterwards. We pulled
up in front of the school, the Kirkland Campus at John Abbott. He reached over
and grabbed my thigh. I slammed that satchel of books so hard into his
hand that it hurt my thigh. I pulled the knob
up. That was a door lock and got out.
I was lucky. I escaped a predator. And when
(01:33):
I had daughters, one of my biggest concerns was the world they were
walking into, And that world almost overnight also included
the Internet and social media. So I had no idea what lurked on
the streets or behind the screens. Well, my guest today is
a brave young man. His name Harrison Hayes. His predator didn't pick him up
when he was hitchhiking. He did so when he was online. And Harrison's here to
(01:55):
tell a story about how sophisticated and manipulative those who lurk behind
keyboards are and the dangers that lie within our reach. I
don't see the world slowing down. I think we have to find it in
ourselves to eliminate the speed and to
take away the hurry from our lives and and to find rhythm. And a really
big part of that is to is to tear away the tether of these devices.
(02:18):
We can set the relationship that we want with them based on our own terms.
I mean, we're the user, and we should take that that authority back.
After my chat with Harrison, we're gonna be joined by Margo Denimey, who
spent 25 years as a crown attorney and in herself as a warrior
for protecting our youth. And she's gonna talk about a book she's written titled The
Family Smartphone Guide. Not unfeathered access to
(02:40):
the smartphone. Great devices, but at the right time
in our child's life and with the right phone real.
So this is an episode you do not wanna miss. But first, let me
welcome the chatter that matters, someone who has graced so many
TV networks with this story, Harrison Haynes. Harrison, welcome to Chatter That
(03:03):
Matters. Hey, man. Thanks for having me. You decided to use your
story as an example that you hope will help
others in terms of countering what lies out
on that web. So I just, I really respect you for doing this. Hey. Thanks,
man. Before it happened, just take me back to, kinda, what were you
thinking about, feeling, what were you doing as, sort of, a a young
(03:26):
man? That whole chapter started I was 11, going
straight to middle school. It was a time of transition, a very difficult time for
me. I struggled to make friends. I struggled to interact.
I struggled in new classes, and, it was hard for me.
So I took a lot of my frustrations online. I gave up on the
the in person friends and, you know, decided that maybe I would connect with people
(03:47):
better online. I wasn't the scrawny, short kid with acne.
I wasn't the kid who had body image issues. I was the
confident gamer who no one could see my face. I would
go to school and I would struggle to interact with people
and and be myself and be confident. And when I went online, I could just
I feel like I could be invisible or I could be somebody. I could be
(04:09):
whoever I wanted to be. Video games as well. I mean, was that where you
found that you had a bit of a superpower that, you know, by getting on
with video games and the smack talk and everything else that goes on
that you felt you you had an identity? It was the only option that my
culture had fostered, really. You're either an outdoor kid or you're an indoor kid. You
either have friends in person or you have friends online. This
(04:31):
online identity that I had cultivated was not only cultivated by myself
but also by my culture. And you talk about these online
communities where you've vented and you took it out on. I mean, do you think
this is the fishing pond where predators just go after because
they know you're putting your hand out for some form of help or relationship and
they go, this is low hanging fruit? It's so easy for people
(04:53):
to become vulnerable online. There's your face isn't
involved. Your name isn't involved. You can go under a username and your
avatar, your character, and and you can you can be truly whoever you
wanna be. So for someone to to pick up on the more personable
traits, I think it's really easy for people to connect that way. I read an
article one time that said people that are very involved in the the
(05:15):
Minecraft I mean, super involved in online communities that I
think was 28% prefer their life online versus their
real life. Did you ever get a sense of I wish I could just stay
there and not go into the real world? You know, I don't think I ever
thought about it like that. For me, it was either it was either one or
the other. And I think I really wanted to be able to participate
in in my community culture and then and make friends,
(05:39):
but it just didn't seem like that was the path that was set out before
me. And where this story gets tragic for to me, and I've
listened to your podcast, your interviews on Good Morning America and such. I mean, I
is it the way you talk about the first time you you meet Adam? Talk
to me about what it was like the early interactions because I really wanna wake
people up to the fact that this isn't just a sledgehammer that comes across.
(06:00):
This is flirting and foreplay and all the elements of of
building a relationship. For me, Adam was a completely
normal individual. You know? I wasn't seeking out a relationship. I
wasn't interested in men, and I'm still not. And there was no elements of
that at all. It was just one dude met another
dude online and was like, wow, you're really fun to play with. You're super good
(06:21):
at the game. And and we connected in a way that I hadn't been connecting
with people in real life. It was like an older brother figure or
a mentor. As you're going through this, do you think that he had a
game plan or was he just, you know, almost like a pinball game and
you're a silver ball bouncing around and he's enjoying it? Or do you think that
he had an end game from day 1? You know, I've been asked that question
(06:41):
multiple times now and I never know how to answer it. In some ways, I
think that the way that it all played out, it could have been perfectly,
intentionally crafted for the outcome and the result. In other
ways, I think he was I mean, he was so young. When
I started interacting with him, he was 18, and by the end of it, he
was 19. I I think he was just really messed
(07:03):
up. I think he was just any other kid, and and it
it came out in a really bad way and all of these all of these
feelings, all of this depression, all this anxiety, this self harm, it
had been perverted and it had been poured out on some stranger.
I can read it and and hear it in your voice that you have such
compassion for people that you still have a place in your heart saying he
(07:23):
might have been just as messed up as I was, and it's so easy for
people to judge. What kind of tactics did he use at the
beginning, and how did they change over time?
And was it so subtle that it's almost the frog in the warm water that
the temperature's being turned up? Or did one day you suddenly look at yourself and
go, this is going the wrong way? The first few months of our friendship
(07:45):
were completely normal, completely innocent. He would
message me on the Xbox app and say, you know, when are you gonna get
on call with you? Are we playing Minecraft? It would usually just be us 2.
He'd ask me, you know, how's your day? How was school? You know, the things
that as much as my parents asked me the answers I never truly
gave them, you know, I'm fine. I felt like we connected at a deeper
(08:06):
level where I felt heard and understood and seen. Slowly, he started
to talk about more personal things. He would talk about
his anxiety that he was feeling. He would ask me about girls
that I was interested in. He would talk about sexuality,
talk about pornography, his depression, and his self harm. And so it was
really subtle. He was being vulnerable with me, and his
(08:28):
vulnerability opened up my vulnerability. Do you find that they
test the waters by talking about pornography and that there's an itch to be
scratched then they start feeding you more and more and the next thing you know
instead of talking about it, you're neck deep and and whatever
he finds online to be gratifying? It was a
very subtle incline, but, you know, I was playing pool with my dad the other
(08:50):
day, and, he was trying to teach me how to get the angles just right
so I could get the ball in the hole. And he's like, you know, even
the slightest the slightest tilt can can set the ball the ball real
far. And I I think that's really accurate of what happened
here. It was just slight turns every time, and it it sent me really far
off. It would be, you know, normal conversations about that. You know, how's
that thing with that girl going at school? I'm gonna be like, you know, I
(09:13):
like her, but I don't think I'm, like, real attracted to her. And at the
time, I wasn't attracted to anybody. I men or women. And it was really a
confusing time for me. So he he really took advantage of that
and and started sending me pornography and and all
sorts of content from the Internet, and really
exploited my growing sense of sexuality. I was
(09:34):
12. I was 13. And when he's sending you this stuff, is it more
male oriented pornography versus female? Is that again another way of he's trying to test
the waters, or was he confused about his sexuality, and it was giving you
the the Baskin Robbins or pornography to see what you're interested in?
Yeah. It was kind of a Baskin Robbins thing. I only consumed
female pornography, which is no better. I was
(09:57):
pretty bad for a 12, 13 year old kid, and, I
think that was frustrating for him that I was really only interested in in the
men and men and women versus the man male on male. And I
think that made it even worse. As this is going on, I mean, is is
this happening over a period of days, weeks, or months? Oh, this this
happened over the course of, like, a year and a half, but this this whole
(10:19):
perverted sense of the friendship was probably, like, 9 months. And
how does that start impacting your relationship at school and at
home? I mean, at the beginning, you've got a friend, you've got somebody that you
can talk to. It's just gotta be some peace of mind in that.
But over time, obviously, it's gotta be adding to your anxiety of who
you are and why you matter. He would message me a
(10:41):
lot. I ended up getting an iPhone, and he started messaging my
cell number. He asked for my cell number, which was a really big jump
because on the Xbox app, you could report, but on
Imessage, you could not. So he got ahold of my
phone number and we would call, we would FaceTime, and he would text me whether
I was at school or I was at choir practice
(11:02):
or I was at family dinner at the table.
And more and more for every time I spent with my friends
or the the few friends I had or or my family or community, he
would send me pictures of self harm or links to pornography
to try to draw me back into a quiet place. How did
your parents I mean, obviously, now they must be looking in their
(11:24):
rearview mirror and saying, how did we miss so much of this that was going
on? And they must feel such tremendous guilt over it. But just
how did they start to wake up to the fact that things
weren't okay? I think the worst part was that, like I
said before, this wasn't really something that was just specific to my
family. The fact that I was being prayed on online seemed pretty specific to
(11:46):
my family. But the lifestyle choices that my generation, that
me and my brothers, we took on, this is just a part of our culture.
You know, boys stay home and play video games or you go and play sports.
It's really one or the other. So I think for them, they weren't really concerned.
You know, they'd hear me talking on the microphone. I would be laughing late into
the night. It seemed like I was just a normal kid to them. So walk
(12:08):
us through the night where your parents
eventually find out what's happening. It was a hard night, I think, for all
of us. I'm really keen to call this our chapter of the story rather
than just mine. This affected my whole family.
This was after weeks weeks of him sending me self harm
content, trying to lure me into sending photos and
(12:31):
videos of myself. I hadn't done it, and he had been growing really
frustrated that I hadn't. I was really concerned for his
safety, for his mental health. I didn't wanna do it,
and I was starting to be convinced that if I did, then maybe I'd save
his life. He was really preying on my sense of compassion, my sense
of empathy. And one night,
(12:52):
my my phone's buzzing off and my parents are asleep and they're in the bedroom
right next door. And I I go downstairs and get my phone and sneak it
back upstairs. And he's he's been calling me all night. And so I I
pick up and he tells me, you know, Harrison, if you don't if you don't
show me your body tonight, I'm gonna kill myself. And so I I hear
him on the on the cell phone. He's starting to assemble what sounds like a
(13:14):
household handgun. I was so afraid. I was so angry.
I started to cry, I started to to yell a little bit, and my parents,
they they had woken up and they had come over to my room and, you
know, I've got my phone. This is a violation of our our family
rules. I'm in my room with my phone at night. And so they took it
And they went through my phone that night, and they saw everything. I mean,
(13:36):
everything. I I can't imagine they slept a wink. That's gotta be tough for all
of you. What was the next morning like? The next morning was really a
challenge. They wanted me to explain, and I and I did. I I
told them I had this friend online and that I was scared. They were asking
all sorts of questions if I was safe enough. I had seen him, and they
started asking me questions like, well, are you self harming? And and I couldn't answer
(13:58):
the question no. All of those things that he had
shown me, I started to practice to curb my anxiety and to curb my depression.
So right there in front of me, they FaceTimed him. The
most nerve wracking part was that they said, you know, hey, Adam.
This is Harrison's parents, and we wanna talk to you. And he's eating
(14:18):
cereal like nothing's nothing's wrong. Like, like, he's done nothing wrong.
He looks in the eyes and says the most stale, the most
cold, the most plastic, I'm sorry I'd ever heard. And do
you think he had other Harrisons in his life or was it he was just
so consumed by you? You know, I had talked to
his mother. My parents had connected with her on Facebook
(14:41):
a few weeks later after we had gotten the police involved.
And we had we had contacted her and told her what had been going on,
and she was convinced at first, she was she didn't believe it. She's like, no.
Not my son. This is not possible. And then she was convinced that
I was not the only one involved. What happened, Adam? My parents
had got in contact with our local community police, our
(15:04):
resource officer at my school, and just to make sure that I was safe at
school. They had contacted, his home state
of New Jersey, tried to press charges, unfortunately,
over state lines, and at the time, he had done nothing wrong. He had
sent sexually suggestive photos of himself. They weren't nude.
He was 19. He had sent me links to pornography,
(15:26):
but it wasn't indecent exposure. And I know the laws are different now,
but to my knowledge, he is still free. I I spoke to
him a few years later. I'd gone through a radical healing journey.
I found real tangible community. I got plugged into a church,
and I learned about a little something called forgiveness. And so I
messaged him. I found him online, and I I had to I just wanted to
(15:49):
tell him that, you know, as hard as it was for me to go through
that and that healing journey and figuring out myself and my identity
and and stopping self harm and the consumption of pornography,
that after everything, that I hope that he's doing better. I hope that
he's able to find someone who cares about him, to
be involved in some sort of community, and and that I forgive him ultimately. And
(16:11):
the message that he sent me back was, aren't you scared?
And I said, scared of what? He said, scared you're gonna get caught again. I
was, like, get caught in in what? He's, like, talking to me. So I just
moved on. When we
return, Harrison's gonna share with us what he's learned from
a research study where he encourages people to replace their smartphone with
(16:32):
a dumb phone and how it's creating a mental renaissance. And
then Margo Denomme is also gonna join the show. She was a crown attorney for
25 years. And instead of enjoying retirement, she's become
a crusader to help families deal with this
crisis of what happens and what is lurking
behind those keyboards.
(16:55):
Hi. It's Tony Chapman, host of Chatter That Matters. You lock your doors,
you protect your valuables, the the the the the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the
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the cyber threats. Visitrbc.com/cyber and
(17:19):
download your playbook today. Helping you protect your online activities.
Well, that matters to RBC.
Privacy and safety do not have to exist separately. They
can coexist. Creating a culture of destigmatizing conversations,
parents having hard conversations with their kids, talking about sex,
(17:40):
talking about porn, talking about self harm, and also
holding these platforms accountable for their lack of
safeguards for kids. My guest today is Harrison
Haynes. He was, at a very young age, lured by a
predator online, offered and encouraged to do things that would
make any parent sick to their stomach. He not
(18:02):
only survived, but he's been willing to tell his tale and
dedicate his life to helping other young 1213 year
olds counter what is happening every day on what we
call the silver screen.
After this happened, you chose to disconnect from technology.
Was that your choice, your parents' choice, a combination of the 2? Or
(18:24):
Yeah. I really pulled back from technology all throughout high school. You know, I
hopped off social media. I really pulled back my screen time. I tried
to live a a really essential kind of life, the life that I knew that
I needed. When I went to college, things really changed for me.
I said, you know what? I really wanna make I wanna make real friends. I
wanna find real community. And so I made the intentional decision to to
(18:46):
exchange my my smartphone for, a dumb phone for a
year and a half. And what did you learn about yourself? I think the biggest
thing that I learned were moments of silence and boredom
were portals to prayer and introspection to learn more about myself and
and my creator. It was a really special time. You strike me as someone that's
incredibly mature for a young man. You've chosen to
(19:09):
really share this story and be very courageous about it and
very vocal about it. Why? You know, I buried it for a long
time. I didn't tell anybody in high school. I thought it was just one of
those things that had happened to me, and it wasn't a relevant part of my
journey. I tried really hard to forget it to the point where when I started
coming back and starting to try to remember again, I had to actually go
(19:30):
through counseling to remember. I had to talk about it and I wanted
to be able to make an impact on people's lives that was really tangible, that
was real. So, I started doing political advocacy and,
eventually, I joined a legislative coalition. We we write laws to
help people like 13 year old me. I found that healing
out in the open has been one of the best decisions that I've ever made
(19:52):
because shame is is a tool of of something really dark, and I want
nothing to do with that. Have you ever been attacked by people
for coming out and telling your story? Not me. I think my
parents certainly have. My parents, you know, I I get messages all the time
on the social media platforms. Where was his father?
Where was his mother? Do they not love him? And and all
(20:15):
I could say was my my parents are right here at home. They love me.
You know, my parents said, it's never gonna be my kid and look where we
are. As you started dating, you know, and realizing that
there was a person that other people would be attracted to, how hard was that
at the beginning? Or did you bury the story so far that it
was only after therapy unlocked it? It was really hard for me
(20:36):
to start to engage personal relationships again. Even further than dating
was just a mentorship. I really just wanted to come under somebody's
wing and to go through this healing journey with somebody. It was rocky. The
pornography really made it hard for me to connect with the girls
that I had been with. And as far as where I am now, pornography is
just barely peeking through the door, and I'm ready to shut it for good. How
(20:59):
do you think pornography is impacting young men? Because I so I don't wanna sound
like an old person, but access to unfiltered
pornography, video gaming, and weed. And the
combination of the 3 can very quickly put somebody
thinking that they're living their life, but really just spinning their tires in wet
cement. It's a really challenging cultural phenomenon. I was asked
(21:20):
recently by Ava Smithing at the the Young People's Alliance. She asked me,
what do you think the benefit of pornography is? And, honestly, I I didn't have
an answer for her. Pornography is is not is not
helpful. It is not constructive. If anything, it it robs
you. It robs young men of their first sexual experience to
be able to explore their partner intimately and and love
(21:43):
and compassion and empathy and just exist with
somebody. But we've been so cold and so sterile to say that they have to
be prepared for their first sexual encounter, that they have
to sit behind a a cold screen while they educate
themselves. I I just don't think that this is a productive worldview at all. I
think, if anything, it's creating victims and perpetrators,
(22:04):
not a sexually educated America. I'm fascinated what you're
doing now because when you were in college, you traded your
smartphone in for a dumb phone. Now you seem to be you're writing
a book about that experience and getting other people to do it. So I'd love
to hear more about what you're doing and where you hope this research leads us.
I loved my time with the dumb phone, honestly. The first few weeks were a
(22:26):
challenge. And I I feel like I came awake to the people around
me. I felt more human than I'd ever been and only to realize that people
had felt this way for 1000 of years, you know, unencumbered
by the infinite Internet in their pocket. I felt like I
could connect to people better. I feel like when I saw people, I knew them
better. And as far as the, the other people's experiences, I
(22:48):
recently just started pioneering a study for the book I'm writing called The Moments
Between Moments, and we are starting a 3
week dumb phone experience. People are exchanging their
smartphone for a dumb phone for 3 weeks alongside a series of interviews.
And, Tony, I gotta tell you the the findings are astounding. These real
human experiences of people saying, I feel alive. I love
(23:11):
doing things I used to hate. Waking up is easier. Going to
sleep is easier. I feel like I can smile more. I feel like
laughing is easier. One of the people in the study said,
you know how you just kind of wander through life? I was like, yeah. He
said, I don't do that anymore. Harrison, do you think this happened to you for
a reason that there's a I mean, obviously, you've talked about your church and your
(23:31):
community. Do you think there's a greater calling for you that you had to go
through this so that you can be an advocate and a warrior to
to hopefully help a lot of the other 13 year old Harrisons out there that
are self harming, getting addicted to pornography,
getting lured by predators? I think I could have had any sort
of infinite possibility of where I could end up, but I knew that no
(23:52):
matter what happened to me, god or the universe or whatever you wanna call
it, absolutely used my human experience, my
my lived experience to to make something great. I I
don't think that he ever wanted to put this on me, but I think he
saw an opportunity to make something really special. I always end my shows
with my 3 takeaways, and I I am struggling a little bit because
(24:14):
the the obvious one is, my, you're courageous. You have
been given a calling. Your circumstances is what
gives you such authenticity and such composure
and conviction that we've gotta do more to protect
people. The second thing is, and we just touched on it, but how
important mentorship is. And you were looking for a mentor online. I think
(24:35):
we're all looking for people in our life that can guide us and
it was interesting how this story went from,
you know, the older brother to suddenly the person crying out for help and
harming themselves and asking you to save them and this
whole convoluted cauldron that happened of this, you know,
swirling around as somebody that just had a very evil heart. And
(24:58):
your compassion for him is something that I I admire because other
people might have spent the rest of their life trying to go for revenge. But
the thing that you said is this moments between moments is to me
the essential part of this podcast that that I no longer
wander through life. I feel alive. And I think we're being
so seduced into these screens. In fact, if anything, we're just being
(25:20):
puppets on a stage, and we're not being human beings anymore.
And my 4th takeaway is what you said very early
in the show about rhythm and that we are in control of our destiny. We
are in control of our screens. And as fast as this planet is, it
doesn't mean we have to, skip and step with it. So for all of
that and more, I have great gratitude that you've, you've agreed to join me,
(25:42):
and I'm happy you're you're, you know, this boy that had to grow up so
quickly is maybe now just slowing down the aging process and and
enjoying life for what it is as well. So that makes me very happy as
well. Yeah. You just gotta breathe deep, man.
Joining me now is Margot Denomme. I'm thrilled
(26:03):
to have her on the podcast. In fact, the reason Harrison was on my podcast
was her suggestion. Margo's an accomplished author,
former crown attorney, and she's the founder of Raising Awareness
About Digital Dangers, R A A D D.
After 26 years of witnessing how social media and smartphones
can harm children's mental health, their self esteem, their safety,
(26:26):
Margo decided to take action. She authored the family
smartphone guide, practical and empowering resource that
helps families navigate the digital landscape safely and
confidently. What fuels her passion? She wants to
protect children, and she wants to equip parents with the tools to raise resilient,
tech savvy kids. Margo, welcome, to Chatter That Matters.
(26:48):
Thank you so much. Thanks for having me, Tony. You gave a lot to
society in terms of a crown attorney in 25 years. Why didn't you
just go away and retire and enjoy life? It seems like you've
taken on such a big cause. I mean, you're speaking all the
time. You've written a book. You're an advocate. What inspired
and motivated you to say, this is what I wanna do in the
(27:11):
next chapter of my life? I, as a mom of 2 daughters,
I've navigated these challenges myself.
And just trying to figure out how to raise kids who are
confident with self esteem and also tech
savvy in this digital world, it's a difficult
journey, and and it's unprecedented for parents.
(27:34):
And not only that, I think what struck me as well is over the
years, I've seen so many kids in court
making poor decisions, you know, as a result sometimes with
low self esteem or damaged self worth and just
kind of rudderless. And I've also seen the
unfortunate consequences that come about because
(27:55):
of their actions or, you know, their impulsive actions.
So I think those two paths in my
personal journey led me to, meet
doctor Michelle Ponty. And doctor Michelle Ponty
is the chair of the Canadian Pediatric
Society's digital task force. So she and
(28:18):
I got together last spring, and we put
together a presentation about the physical,
mental, and legal implications of smartphone use,
and the response from parents was overwhelming.
And it was at that point that I really realized
(28:38):
we need a comprehensive, easy to
digest resource. We came up with the
family smartphone guide. One of the things I loved about what your your book
is is a family contract for digital use. Now the last thing
I imagine a kid wants to be to sit down and and realize there's a
contract, but tell me how that came about and why it's proving to be one
(29:01):
of the most powerful mechanisms to creating some kind
of level playing field between what the parents want and what the
children want. Well, it actually started because when I gave my
own children a smartphone some 12 years ago,
call it an occupational hazard, but I did not give
it to them lightly. And there were rules and
(29:23):
restrictions around it. And so I, at that time,
drafted a contract. And and because I
knew that, first of all, I was paying the bill.
So that was definitely generated the contract in and of
itself. But also that I wanted them to know that it was a privilege
and not a right to have this smartphone. And
(29:46):
there had to be some rules and regulations
around its use because I
didn't want unfeathered access. And at that point, of course, we
weren't even close to the dangers that we see now, but
we've it was still an unknown quantity, and I thought, you
know, let's put some some boundaries in place. So the
(30:09):
one that's included in the family, smartphone guide
is a more fulsome contract. And and, you know, I can't emphasize
enough because it's in the contract to keep the the phones
out of the bedroom. Parents need to approach smartphones like handing
over the car case. Brilliant. Because, you know, when I hand over
the car case to my daughters the first times, I did that with a lot
(30:31):
of dread. I made sure that they knew exactly how to drive. So I
love what you had to say, but for kids, they're going, mom, come on. It's
a smartphone. Believe me. I I dealt with
my fair share of eye rolling. But I was I'm
prepared to deal with that out of safety, and this is
really a safety issue. And that's why I mean,
(30:53):
as you know, the family smartphone guide mimics
the driver's handbook. There is a smartphone on wheels on
the front of it, and it's meant to mimic the driver's
handbook. You didn't just give your child the keys
and say, off you go. Think about the preparation that
we do. Cars have risks. They pose risks. You have to
(31:16):
know the rules of the road. And now that we have so many studies
to tell us about the dangers that is happening with smartphones,
we need to employ the same guardrails for our
children that we do with driving. Are you
proposing, for example, the same way they they sort of woke up
and had started graduating driver's licenses that we should be
(31:38):
thinking about smartphones that each year we
open up more opportunities with it? Or do you just feel that's a lost
cause because the kids will find a way to hack that? Well, they can't hack
it if they don't have one. But there's lots of ways that we
can graduate to their own smartphones. You know,
having a family computer on the kitchen table
(32:00):
that we can talk about digital literacy, that we can talk about the
digital footprint, that we can talk about,
stranger danger, what I have in the in the guide being the tricky
icky's, like, people that you know, the red flags
that kids are gonna come across as they become
more involved. You're called on a lot to be a keynote speaker, and I
(32:23):
know at times it's parent groups and the hands go up, and there's
5,000 questions for you at the end. You mentioned, for example, the computer
in the kitchen, digital literacy. But what are the other things that you equip
parents with so that they stand a chance against kids that are so much
more tech savvy than they are? To delay as long as they
can. To help their child create
(32:45):
self esteem and and confidence,
from within and develop passion before they ever
place a piece of technology in their hands. When
people don't even have a sense of themselves, and now they're
seeing all of these curated lives online and
filtered images. And, you know, I've been speaking about this for for
(33:07):
years with my celebrate you tour. It's so critical
that we teach kids to be skeptical about what they're
seeing online because very often, as you and
I know, it it is filtered. If you don't have the foundations in place,
it's almost impossible not to get seduced by the
seduction of the Internet. And if you don't have any basis of
(33:29):
comparison that there was life without it I mean, this is all
within the last 17 years, but we
remember life without it. Even my kids who are now 22 say, I
remember life without a phone, and it's a magical time that
everybody reflects the phone. Margo, how do people get hold of you?
What's the best way to say, I'd love you to come out and speak at
(33:50):
my conference or I wanna buy your book? Is it just direct to your
website? Is it via Amazon? The book is available on amazon.canamazon.com.
My website is raising awareness against digital
dangers, and my contact information
is on the website. Margot, I really appreciate you
(34:11):
joining me on Chatter That Matters, and what a ending to a great
conversation with Harrison to have somebody that spent 25 years as
a crown attorney and the context. And I'm just so proud of
you for not meandering in a retirement, but taking this
on as a as a personal crusade. I think the world's better for it. Thank
you so much, Tony, and thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate
(34:33):
being here. Once again, a special thanks to RBC
for supporting Chatter That Matters. It's Tony Chapman. Thanks
for listening, and let's chat soon.
I remember a day in my life as if it was yesterday. I was
only 17. I was hitchhiking to college. It's an awkward
ride as it involved 2 very different legs, one that went
West and one that headed north. I carried an army
satchel back then. This was pre knapsack and ended up with the books I would
need that day, and a car pulled over and offered me a ride. And
(00:25):
when I mentioned where I was going, the drop off point that requires someone to
head north to my final destination, He offered to take me there, said
he had nothing else to do. Well, I thought it was my lucky day.
As the car pulled away, almost immediately, the
conversation started to get weird. He want to know what a good looking guy
like me did for fun. Did I have a girlfriend? Start asking me about
(00:48):
my sex life. We were traveling about a 100
kilometers an hour. My door was locked and my spider sense went into
high gear. This wasn't turning out to be that lucky
day. I started asking if I wanted to pull over and find a place
to have breakfast or even spend the day together playing hooky. I had
the sense to maintain the conversation, talk to him about the need to get to
(01:09):
school for an important exam. Maybe we could meet afterwards. We pulled
up in front of the school, the Kirkland Campus at John Abbott. He reached over
and grabbed my thigh. I slammed that satchel of books so hard into his
hand that it hurt my thigh. I pulled the knob
up. That was a door lock and got out.
I was lucky. I escaped a predator. And when
(01:33):
I had daughters, one of my biggest concerns was the world they were
walking into, And that world almost overnight also included
the Internet and social media. So I had no idea what lurked on
the streets or behind the screens. Well, my guest today is
a brave young man. His name Harrison Hayes. His predator didn't pick him up
when he was hitchhiking. He did so when he was online. And Harrison's here to
(01:55):
tell a story about how sophisticated and manipulative those who lurk behind
keyboards are and the dangers that lie within our reach. I
don't see the world slowing down. I think we have to find it in
ourselves to eliminate the speed and to
take away the hurry from our lives and and to find rhythm. And a really
big part of that is to is to tear away the tether of these devices.
(02:18):
We can set the relationship that we want with them based on our own terms.
I mean, we're the user, and we should take that that authority back.
After my chat with Harrison, we're gonna be joined by Margo Denimey, who
spent 25 years as a crown attorney and in herself as a warrior
for protecting our youth. And she's gonna talk about a book she's written titled The
Family Smartphone Guide. Not unfeathered access to
(02:40):
the smartphone. Great devices, but at the right time
in our child's life and with the right phone real.
So this is an episode you do not wanna miss. But first, let me
welcome the chatter that matters, someone who has graced so many
TV networks with this story, Harrison Haynes. Harrison, welcome to Chatter That
(03:03):
Matters. Hey, man. Thanks for having me. You decided to use your
story as an example that you hope will help
others in terms of countering what lies out
on that web. So I just, I really respect you for doing this. Hey. Thanks,
man. Before it happened, just take me back to, kinda, what were you
thinking about, feeling, what were you doing as, sort of, a a young
(03:26):
man? That whole chapter started I was 11, going
straight to middle school. It was a time of transition, a very difficult time for
me. I struggled to make friends. I struggled to interact.
I struggled in new classes, and, it was hard for me.
So I took a lot of my frustrations online. I gave up on the
the in person friends and, you know, decided that maybe I would connect with people
(03:47):
better online. I wasn't the scrawny, short kid with acne.
I wasn't the kid who had body image issues. I was the
confident gamer who no one could see my face. I would
go to school and I would struggle to interact with people
and and be myself and be confident. And when I went online, I could just
I feel like I could be invisible or I could be somebody. I could be
(04:09):
whoever I wanted to be. Video games as well. I mean, was that where you
found that you had a bit of a superpower that, you know, by getting on
with video games and the smack talk and everything else that goes on
that you felt you you had an identity? It was the only option that my
culture had fostered, really. You're either an outdoor kid or you're an indoor kid. You
either have friends in person or you have friends online. This
(04:31):
online identity that I had cultivated was not only cultivated by myself
but also by my culture. And you talk about these online
communities where you've vented and you took it out on. I mean, do you think
this is the fishing pond where predators just go after because
they know you're putting your hand out for some form of help or relationship and
they go, this is low hanging fruit? It's so easy for people
(04:53):
to become vulnerable online. There's your face isn't
involved. Your name isn't involved. You can go under a username and your
avatar, your character, and and you can you can be truly whoever you
wanna be. So for someone to to pick up on the more personable
traits, I think it's really easy for people to connect that way. I read an
article one time that said people that are very involved in the the
(05:15):
Minecraft I mean, super involved in online communities that I
think was 28% prefer their life online versus their
real life. Did you ever get a sense of I wish I could just stay
there and not go into the real world? You know, I don't think I ever
thought about it like that. For me, it was either it was either one or
the other. And I think I really wanted to be able to participate
in in my community culture and then and make friends,
(05:39):
but it just didn't seem like that was the path that was set out before
me. And where this story gets tragic for to me, and I've
listened to your podcast, your interviews on Good Morning America and such. I mean, I
is it the way you talk about the first time you you meet Adam? Talk
to me about what it was like the early interactions because I really wanna wake
people up to the fact that this isn't just a sledgehammer that comes across.
(06:00):
This is flirting and foreplay and all the elements of of
building a relationship. For me, Adam was a completely
normal individual. You know? I wasn't seeking out a relationship. I
wasn't interested in men, and I'm still not. And there was no elements of
that at all. It was just one dude met another
dude online and was like, wow, you're really fun to play with. You're super good
(06:21):
at the game. And and we connected in a way that I hadn't been connecting
with people in real life. It was like an older brother figure or
a mentor. As you're going through this, do you think that he had a
game plan or was he just, you know, almost like a pinball game and
you're a silver ball bouncing around and he's enjoying it? Or do you think that
he had an end game from day 1? You know, I've been asked that question
(06:41):
multiple times now and I never know how to answer it. In some ways, I
think that the way that it all played out, it could have been perfectly,
intentionally crafted for the outcome and the result. In other
ways, I think he was I mean, he was so young. When
I started interacting with him, he was 18, and by the end of it, he
was 19. I I think he was just really messed
(07:03):
up. I think he was just any other kid, and and it
it came out in a really bad way and all of these all of these
feelings, all of this depression, all this anxiety, this self harm, it
had been perverted and it had been poured out on some stranger.
I can read it and and hear it in your voice that you have such
compassion for people that you still have a place in your heart saying he
(07:23):
might have been just as messed up as I was, and it's so easy for
people to judge. What kind of tactics did he use at the
beginning, and how did they change over time?
And was it so subtle that it's almost the frog in the warm water that
the temperature's being turned up? Or did one day you suddenly look at yourself and
go, this is going the wrong way? The first few months of our friendship
(07:45):
were completely normal, completely innocent. He would
message me on the Xbox app and say, you know, when are you gonna get
on call with you? Are we playing Minecraft? It would usually just be us 2.
He'd ask me, you know, how's your day? How was school? You know, the things
that as much as my parents asked me the answers I never truly
gave them, you know, I'm fine. I felt like we connected at a deeper
(08:06):
level where I felt heard and understood and seen. Slowly, he started
to talk about more personal things. He would talk about
his anxiety that he was feeling. He would ask me about girls
that I was interested in. He would talk about sexuality,
talk about pornography, his depression, and his self harm. And so it was
really subtle. He was being vulnerable with me, and his
(08:28):
vulnerability opened up my vulnerability. Do you find that they
test the waters by talking about pornography and that there's an itch to be
scratched then they start feeding you more and more and the next thing you know
instead of talking about it, you're neck deep and and whatever
he finds online to be gratifying? It was a
very subtle incline, but, you know, I was playing pool with my dad the other
(08:50):
day, and, he was trying to teach me how to get the angles just right
so I could get the ball in the hole. And he's like, you know, even
the slightest the slightest tilt can can set the ball the ball real
far. And I I think that's really accurate of what happened
here. It was just slight turns every time, and it it sent me really far
off. It would be, you know, normal conversations about that. You know, how's
that thing with that girl going at school? I'm gonna be like, you know, I
(09:13):
like her, but I don't think I'm, like, real attracted to her. And at the
time, I wasn't attracted to anybody. I men or women. And it was really a
confusing time for me. So he he really took advantage of that
and and started sending me pornography and and all
sorts of content from the Internet, and really
exploited my growing sense of sexuality. I was
(09:34):
12. I was 13. And when he's sending you this stuff, is it more
male oriented pornography versus female? Is that again another way of he's trying to test
the waters, or was he confused about his sexuality, and it was giving you
the the Baskin Robbins or pornography to see what you're interested in?
Yeah. It was kind of a Baskin Robbins thing. I only consumed
female pornography, which is no better. I was
(09:57):
pretty bad for a 12, 13 year old kid, and, I
think that was frustrating for him that I was really only interested in in the
men and men and women versus the man male on male. And I
think that made it even worse. As this is going on, I mean, is is
this happening over a period of days, weeks, or months? Oh, this this
happened over the course of, like, a year and a half, but this this whole
(10:19):
perverted sense of the friendship was probably, like, 9 months. And
how does that start impacting your relationship at school and at
home? I mean, at the beginning, you've got a friend, you've got somebody that you
can talk to. It's just gotta be some peace of mind in that.
But over time, obviously, it's gotta be adding to your anxiety of who
you are and why you matter. He would message me a
(10:41):
lot. I ended up getting an iPhone, and he started messaging my
cell number. He asked for my cell number, which was a really big jump
because on the Xbox app, you could report, but on
Imessage, you could not. So he got ahold of my
phone number and we would call, we would FaceTime, and he would text me whether
I was at school or I was at choir practice
(11:02):
or I was at family dinner at the table.
And more and more for every time I spent with my friends
or the the few friends I had or or my family or community, he
would send me pictures of self harm or links to pornography
to try to draw me back into a quiet place. How did
your parents I mean, obviously, now they must be looking in their
(11:24):
rearview mirror and saying, how did we miss so much of this that was going
on? And they must feel such tremendous guilt over it. But just
how did they start to wake up to the fact that things
weren't okay? I think the worst part was that, like I
said before, this wasn't really something that was just specific to my
family. The fact that I was being prayed on online seemed pretty specific to
(11:46):
my family. But the lifestyle choices that my generation, that
me and my brothers, we took on, this is just a part of our culture.
You know, boys stay home and play video games or you go and play sports.
It's really one or the other. So I think for them, they weren't really concerned.
You know, they'd hear me talking on the microphone. I would be laughing late into
the night. It seemed like I was just a normal kid to them. So walk
(12:08):
us through the night where your parents
eventually find out what's happening. It was a hard night, I think, for all
of us. I'm really keen to call this our chapter of the story rather
than just mine. This affected my whole family.
This was after weeks weeks of him sending me self harm
content, trying to lure me into sending photos and
(12:31):
videos of myself. I hadn't done it, and he had been growing really
frustrated that I hadn't. I was really concerned for his
safety, for his mental health. I didn't wanna do it,
and I was starting to be convinced that if I did, then maybe I'd save
his life. He was really preying on my sense of compassion, my sense
of empathy. And one night,
(12:52):
my my phone's buzzing off and my parents are asleep and they're in the bedroom
right next door. And I I go downstairs and get my phone and sneak it
back upstairs. And he's he's been calling me all night. And so I I
pick up and he tells me, you know, Harrison, if you don't if you don't
show me your body tonight, I'm gonna kill myself. And so I I hear
him on the on the cell phone. He's starting to assemble what sounds like a
(13:14):
household handgun. I was so afraid. I was so angry.
I started to cry, I started to to yell a little bit, and my parents,
they they had woken up and they had come over to my room and, you
know, I've got my phone. This is a violation of our our family
rules. I'm in my room with my phone at night. And so they took it
And they went through my phone that night, and they saw everything. I mean,
(13:36):
everything. I I can't imagine they slept a wink. That's gotta be tough for all
of you. What was the next morning like? The next morning was really a
challenge. They wanted me to explain, and I and I did. I I
told them I had this friend online and that I was scared. They were asking
all sorts of questions if I was safe enough. I had seen him, and they
started asking me questions like, well, are you self harming? And and I couldn't answer
(13:58):
the question no. All of those things that he had
shown me, I started to practice to curb my anxiety and to curb my depression.
So right there in front of me, they FaceTimed him. The
most nerve wracking part was that they said, you know, hey, Adam.
This is Harrison's parents, and we wanna talk to you. And he's eating
(14:18):
cereal like nothing's nothing's wrong. Like, like, he's done nothing wrong.
He looks in the eyes and says the most stale, the most
cold, the most plastic, I'm sorry I'd ever heard. And do
you think he had other Harrisons in his life or was it he was just
so consumed by you? You know, I had talked to
his mother. My parents had connected with her on Facebook
(14:41):
a few weeks later after we had gotten the police involved.
And we had we had contacted her and told her what had been going on,
and she was convinced at first, she was she didn't believe it. She's like, no.
Not my son. This is not possible. And then she was convinced that
I was not the only one involved. What happened, Adam? My parents
had got in contact with our local community police, our
(15:04):
resource officer at my school, and just to make sure that I was safe at
school. They had contacted, his home state
of New Jersey, tried to press charges, unfortunately,
over state lines, and at the time, he had done nothing wrong. He had
sent sexually suggestive photos of himself. They weren't nude.
He was 19. He had sent me links to pornography,
(15:26):
but it wasn't indecent exposure. And I know the laws are different now,
but to my knowledge, he is still free. I I spoke to
him a few years later. I'd gone through a radical healing journey.
I found real tangible community. I got plugged into a church,
and I learned about a little something called forgiveness. And so I
messaged him. I found him online, and I I had to I just wanted to
(15:49):
tell him that, you know, as hard as it was for me to go through
that and that healing journey and figuring out myself and my identity
and and stopping self harm and the consumption of pornography,
that after everything, that I hope that he's doing better. I hope that
he's able to find someone who cares about him, to
be involved in some sort of community, and and that I forgive him ultimately. And
(16:11):
the message that he sent me back was, aren't you scared?
And I said, scared of what? He said, scared you're gonna get caught again. I
was, like, get caught in in what? He's, like, talking to me. So I just
moved on. When we
return, Harrison's gonna share with us what he's learned from
a research study where he encourages people to replace their smartphone with
(16:32):
a dumb phone and how it's creating a mental renaissance. And
then Margo Denomme is also gonna join the show. She was a crown attorney for
25 years. And instead of enjoying retirement, she's become
a crusader to help families deal with this
crisis of what happens and what is lurking
behind those keyboards.
(16:55):
Hi. It's Tony Chapman, host of Chatter That Matters. You lock your doors,
you protect your valuables, the the the the the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the the the
the cyber threats. Visitrbc.com/cyber and
(17:19):
download your playbook today. Helping you protect your online activities.
Well, that matters to RBC.
Privacy and safety do not have to exist separately. They
can coexist. Creating a culture of destigmatizing conversations,
parents having hard conversations with their kids, talking about sex,
(17:40):
talking about porn, talking about self harm, and also
holding these platforms accountable for their lack of
safeguards for kids. My guest today is Harrison
Haynes. He was, at a very young age, lured by a
predator online, offered and encouraged to do things that would
make any parent sick to their stomach. He not
(18:02):
only survived, but he's been willing to tell his tale and
dedicate his life to helping other young 1213 year
olds counter what is happening every day on what we
call the silver screen.
After this happened, you chose to disconnect from technology.
Was that your choice, your parents' choice, a combination of the 2? Or
(18:24):
Yeah. I really pulled back from technology all throughout high school. You know, I
hopped off social media. I really pulled back my screen time. I tried
to live a a really essential kind of life, the life that I knew that
I needed. When I went to college, things really changed for me.
I said, you know what? I really wanna make I wanna make real friends. I
wanna find real community. And so I made the intentional decision to to
(18:46):
exchange my my smartphone for, a dumb phone for a
year and a half. And what did you learn about yourself? I think the biggest
thing that I learned were moments of silence and boredom
were portals to prayer and introspection to learn more about myself and
and my creator. It was a really special time. You strike me as someone that's
incredibly mature for a young man. You've chosen to
(19:09):
really share this story and be very courageous about it and
very vocal about it. Why? You know, I buried it for a long
time. I didn't tell anybody in high school. I thought it was just one of
those things that had happened to me, and it wasn't a relevant part of my
journey. I tried really hard to forget it to the point where when I started
coming back and starting to try to remember again, I had to actually go
(19:30):
through counseling to remember. I had to talk about it and I wanted
to be able to make an impact on people's lives that was really tangible, that
was real. So, I started doing political advocacy and,
eventually, I joined a legislative coalition. We we write laws to
help people like 13 year old me. I found that healing
out in the open has been one of the best decisions that I've ever made
(19:52):
because shame is is a tool of of something really dark, and I want
nothing to do with that. Have you ever been attacked by people
for coming out and telling your story? Not me. I think my
parents certainly have. My parents, you know, I I get messages all the time
on the social media platforms. Where was his father?
Where was his mother? Do they not love him? And and all
(20:15):
I could say was my my parents are right here at home. They love me.
You know, my parents said, it's never gonna be my kid and look where we
are. As you started dating, you know, and realizing that
there was a person that other people would be attracted to, how hard was that
at the beginning? Or did you bury the story so far that it
was only after therapy unlocked it? It was really hard for me
(20:36):
to start to engage personal relationships again. Even further than dating
was just a mentorship. I really just wanted to come under somebody's
wing and to go through this healing journey with somebody. It was rocky. The
pornography really made it hard for me to connect with the girls
that I had been with. And as far as where I am now, pornography is
just barely peeking through the door, and I'm ready to shut it for good. How
(20:59):
do you think pornography is impacting young men? Because I so I don't wanna sound
like an old person, but access to unfiltered
pornography, video gaming, and weed. And the
combination of the 3 can very quickly put somebody
thinking that they're living their life, but really just spinning their tires in wet
cement. It's a really challenging cultural phenomenon. I was asked
(21:20):
recently by Ava Smithing at the the Young People's Alliance. She asked me,
what do you think the benefit of pornography is? And, honestly, I I didn't have
an answer for her. Pornography is is not is not
helpful. It is not constructive. If anything, it it robs
you. It robs young men of their first sexual experience to
be able to explore their partner intimately and and love
(21:43):
and compassion and empathy and just exist with
somebody. But we've been so cold and so sterile to say that they have to
be prepared for their first sexual encounter, that they have
to sit behind a a cold screen while they educate
themselves. I I just don't think that this is a productive worldview at all. I
think, if anything, it's creating victims and perpetrators,
(22:04):
not a sexually educated America. I'm fascinated what you're
doing now because when you were in college, you traded your
smartphone in for a dumb phone. Now you seem to be you're writing
a book about that experience and getting other people to do it. So I'd love
to hear more about what you're doing and where you hope this research leads us.
I loved my time with the dumb phone, honestly. The first few weeks were a
(22:26):
challenge. And I I feel like I came awake to the people around
me. I felt more human than I'd ever been and only to realize that people
had felt this way for 1000 of years, you know, unencumbered
by the infinite Internet in their pocket. I felt like I
could connect to people better. I feel like when I saw people, I knew them
better. And as far as the, the other people's experiences, I
(22:48):
recently just started pioneering a study for the book I'm writing called The Moments
Between Moments, and we are starting a 3
week dumb phone experience. People are exchanging their
smartphone for a dumb phone for 3 weeks alongside a series of interviews.
And, Tony, I gotta tell you the the findings are astounding. These real
human experiences of people saying, I feel alive. I love
(23:11):
doing things I used to hate. Waking up is easier. Going to
sleep is easier. I feel like I can smile more. I feel like
laughing is easier. One of the people in the study said,
you know how you just kind of wander through life? I was like, yeah. He
said, I don't do that anymore. Harrison, do you think this happened to you for
a reason that there's a I mean, obviously, you've talked about your church and your
(23:31):
community. Do you think there's a greater calling for you that you had to go
through this so that you can be an advocate and a warrior to
to hopefully help a lot of the other 13 year old Harrisons out there that
are self harming, getting addicted to pornography,
getting lured by predators? I think I could have had any sort
of infinite possibility of where I could end up, but I knew that no
(23:52):
matter what happened to me, god or the universe or whatever you wanna call
it, absolutely used my human experience, my
my lived experience to to make something great. I I
don't think that he ever wanted to put this on me, but I think he
saw an opportunity to make something really special. I always end my shows
with my 3 takeaways, and I I am struggling a little bit because
(24:14):
the the obvious one is, my, you're courageous. You have
been given a calling. Your circumstances is what
gives you such authenticity and such composure
and conviction that we've gotta do more to protect
people. The second thing is, and we just touched on it, but how
important mentorship is. And you were looking for a mentor online. I think
(24:35):
we're all looking for people in our life that can guide us and
it was interesting how this story went from,
you know, the older brother to suddenly the person crying out for help and
harming themselves and asking you to save them and this
whole convoluted cauldron that happened of this, you know,
swirling around as somebody that just had a very evil heart. And
(24:58):
your compassion for him is something that I I admire because other
people might have spent the rest of their life trying to go for revenge. But
the thing that you said is this moments between moments is to me
the essential part of this podcast that that I no longer
wander through life. I feel alive. And I think we're being
so seduced into these screens. In fact, if anything, we're just being
(25:20):
puppets on a stage, and we're not being human beings anymore.
And my 4th takeaway is what you said very early
in the show about rhythm and that we are in control of our destiny. We
are in control of our screens. And as fast as this planet is, it
doesn't mean we have to, skip and step with it. So for all of
that and more, I have great gratitude that you've, you've agreed to join me,
(25:42):
and I'm happy you're you're, you know, this boy that had to grow up so
quickly is maybe now just slowing down the aging process and and
enjoying life for what it is as well. So that makes me very happy as
well. Yeah. You just gotta breathe deep, man.
Joining me now is Margot Denomme. I'm thrilled
(26:03):
to have her on the podcast. In fact, the reason Harrison was on my podcast
was her suggestion. Margo's an accomplished author,
former crown attorney, and she's the founder of Raising Awareness
About Digital Dangers, R A A D D.
After 26 years of witnessing how social media and smartphones
can harm children's mental health, their self esteem, their safety,
(26:26):
Margo decided to take action. She authored the family
smartphone guide, practical and empowering resource that
helps families navigate the digital landscape safely and
confidently. What fuels her passion? She wants to
protect children, and she wants to equip parents with the tools to raise resilient,
tech savvy kids. Margo, welcome, to Chatter That Matters.
(26:48):
Thank you so much. Thanks for having me, Tony. You gave a lot to
society in terms of a crown attorney in 25 years. Why didn't you
just go away and retire and enjoy life? It seems like you've
taken on such a big cause. I mean, you're speaking all the
time. You've written a book. You're an advocate. What inspired
and motivated you to say, this is what I wanna do in the
(27:11):
next chapter of my life? I, as a mom of 2 daughters,
I've navigated these challenges myself.
And just trying to figure out how to raise kids who are
confident with self esteem and also tech
savvy in this digital world, it's a difficult
journey, and and it's unprecedented for parents.
(27:34):
And not only that, I think what struck me as well is over the
years, I've seen so many kids in court
making poor decisions, you know, as a result sometimes with
low self esteem or damaged self worth and just
kind of rudderless. And I've also seen the
unfortunate consequences that come about because
(27:55):
of their actions or, you know, their impulsive actions.
So I think those two paths in my
personal journey led me to, meet
doctor Michelle Ponty. And doctor Michelle Ponty
is the chair of the Canadian Pediatric
Society's digital task force. So she and
(28:18):
I got together last spring, and we put
together a presentation about the physical,
mental, and legal implications of smartphone use,
and the response from parents was overwhelming.
And it was at that point that I really realized
(28:38):
we need a comprehensive, easy to
digest resource. We came up with the
family smartphone guide. One of the things I loved about what your your book
is is a family contract for digital use. Now the last thing
I imagine a kid wants to be to sit down and and realize there's a
contract, but tell me how that came about and why it's proving to be one
(29:01):
of the most powerful mechanisms to creating some kind
of level playing field between what the parents want and what the
children want. Well, it actually started because when I gave my
own children a smartphone some 12 years ago,
call it an occupational hazard, but I did not give
it to them lightly. And there were rules and
(29:23):
restrictions around it. And so I, at that time,
drafted a contract. And and because I
knew that, first of all, I was paying the bill.
So that was definitely generated the contract in and of
itself. But also that I wanted them to know that it was a privilege
and not a right to have this smartphone. And
(29:46):
there had to be some rules and regulations
around its use because I
didn't want unfeathered access. And at that point, of course, we
weren't even close to the dangers that we see now, but
we've it was still an unknown quantity, and I thought, you
know, let's put some some boundaries in place. So the
(30:09):
one that's included in the family, smartphone guide
is a more fulsome contract. And and, you know, I can't emphasize
enough because it's in the contract to keep the the phones
out of the bedroom. Parents need to approach smartphones like handing
over the car case. Brilliant. Because, you know, when I hand over
the car case to my daughters the first times, I did that with a lot
(30:31):
of dread. I made sure that they knew exactly how to drive. So I
love what you had to say, but for kids, they're going, mom, come on. It's
a smartphone. Believe me. I I dealt with
my fair share of eye rolling. But I was I'm
prepared to deal with that out of safety, and this is
really a safety issue. And that's why I mean,
(30:53):
as you know, the family smartphone guide mimics
the driver's handbook. There is a smartphone on wheels on
the front of it, and it's meant to mimic the driver's
handbook. You didn't just give your child the keys
and say, off you go. Think about the preparation that
we do. Cars have risks. They pose risks. You have to
(31:16):
know the rules of the road. And now that we have so many studies
to tell us about the dangers that is happening with smartphones,
we need to employ the same guardrails for our
children that we do with driving. Are you
proposing, for example, the same way they they sort of woke up
and had started graduating driver's licenses that we should be
(31:38):
thinking about smartphones that each year we
open up more opportunities with it? Or do you just feel that's a lost
cause because the kids will find a way to hack that? Well, they can't hack
it if they don't have one. But there's lots of ways that we
can graduate to their own smartphones. You know,
having a family computer on the kitchen table
(32:00):
that we can talk about digital literacy, that we can talk about the
digital footprint, that we can talk about,
stranger danger, what I have in the in the guide being the tricky
icky's, like, people that you know, the red flags
that kids are gonna come across as they become
more involved. You're called on a lot to be a keynote speaker, and I
(32:23):
know at times it's parent groups and the hands go up, and there's
5,000 questions for you at the end. You mentioned, for example, the computer
in the kitchen, digital literacy. But what are the other things that you equip
parents with so that they stand a chance against kids that are so much
more tech savvy than they are? To delay as long as they
can. To help their child create
(32:45):
self esteem and and confidence,
from within and develop passion before they ever
place a piece of technology in their hands. When
people don't even have a sense of themselves, and now they're
seeing all of these curated lives online and
filtered images. And, you know, I've been speaking about this for for
(33:07):
years with my celebrate you tour. It's so critical
that we teach kids to be skeptical about what they're
seeing online because very often, as you and
I know, it it is filtered. If you don't have the foundations in place,
it's almost impossible not to get seduced by the
seduction of the Internet. And if you don't have any basis of
(33:29):
comparison that there was life without it I mean, this is all
within the last 17 years, but we
remember life without it. Even my kids who are now 22 say, I
remember life without a phone, and it's a magical time that
everybody reflects the phone. Margo, how do people get hold of you?
What's the best way to say, I'd love you to come out and speak at
(33:50):
my conference or I wanna buy your book? Is it just direct to your
website? Is it via Amazon? The book is available on amazon.canamazon.com.
My website is raising awareness against digital
dangers, and my contact information
is on the website. Margot, I really appreciate you
(34:11):
joining me on Chatter That Matters, and what a ending to a great
conversation with Harrison to have somebody that spent 25 years as
a crown attorney and the context. And I'm just so proud of
you for not meandering in a retirement, but taking this
on as a as a personal crusade. I think the world's better for it. Thank
you so much, Tony, and thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate
(34:33):
being here. Once again, a special thanks to RBC
for supporting Chatter That Matters. It's Tony Chapman. Thanks
for listening, and let's chat soon.
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