December 23, 2025 • 50 mins
Rob Spera is a film and television director, educator, and the author of Film/TV Director’s Field Manual: 70 Maxims to Change Your Filmmaking. With decades of experience directing features, episodic television, and theatre, Rob brings a deeply practical, human-centred approach to directing and leadership. In this conversation, we discuss:
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- Why Rob describes his book as an “anti-textbook”
- The idea that the camera’s job is to photograph subtext
- Building non-redundant frames that invite the audience to participate
- Why kindness and psychological safety are essential creative tools
- Letting go of control and empowering collaborators
- What “write what you know” really means
- How directors can practise their craft between jobs
HAPPY HOLIDAYS!
This podcast is completely independent and made possible by listener support. If you’d like to help me keep making these episodes, you can join my Patreon community here: https://patreon.com/jamiebenning
Watch more on YouTube:
Check out the Filmumentaries YouTube channel for behind-the-scenes clips and extra content: https://youtube.com/filmumentaries
All my links
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 3 (00:05):
Weird Being Way Media.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Hello, and welcome to the Film Yourmentaries podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
This is Jamie Benning and this is the show where
I talk to people behind the scenes of the films
and television we love. I also get to speak to
people about books they've made on the subject as well.
On My Yes Today is one of those. His name
is Rob Sperer. He's a director, longtime AFI conservatory instructor,
and the author of film and TV Director's Field Manual
(01:11):
seventy Maxims to Change Your Filmmaking Now. Rob has directed
features including The Sweet Life and Leprecorn in the Hood,
extensive television work on shows like Criminal Minds and Supernatural,
and he's spent decades teaching directors how to think visually,
how to lead cruise, and also to tell stories without
beating audiences over the head. His book is Deliberately Small,
(01:34):
deliberately practical, and deliberately unpreachy, a kind of anti textbook,
as he calls it, for directors that you can actually
carry on too. Set in your pocket, fits in your pocket.
And in this conversation we talk about everything from psychological
safety on set, to photographing subtext, to why kindness is
not just a moral choice but a creative one and
(01:56):
a lot more. Had really nice conversation with Rob. We
had arranged to do this a lot earlier, but I
had to cancel. I think we had some technical issues
at one point as well, and we finally got down
to it and we had a really good conversation, and
we've sort of stayed in touch since. We've had a
couple of emails to and fro. So I hope your
preparations for the holiday season have gone well. What is
(02:17):
it the twenty third today, A couple of days and
we'll all be stuffing our faces with food. So let's
get into this. Here's my conversation with Rob Sparer. Rober,
(02:45):
I appreciate you joining me today. Thanks for sending me
the book, The Film TV Director's Field Manual, seventy Maxims
to Change your Filmmaking. It's a fantastic book. It's, as
somebody describes on the back here, it's deeply insightful and
unnervingly concise. I mean, you've managed to compress what is
(03:08):
clearly a long career of yours into these seventy maxims.
But let's go back to the beginning. Where did it
all begin? Where did your creative life begin you talk
about a moment in high school I believe where it
sort of clicked.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
Yeah, yeah, you know, I was extremely shy and had
trouble correcting with people, and then it just struck me them.
I don't know what gave me the courage to do this,
but to try out for the senior play and ended
up getting cast in the lead. And it really never
stopped there. It was just this absolute hunger and need
(03:49):
to express myself that found its way into interacting initially,
and you know, I went to school New York and
studied with Sandy Meisner. You know, being a young character
actor and not being much work out there until you're
in your forties, I you know, I decided to just
start producing work that I could then act and so
(04:11):
I'd be able to learn my craft at a point
where I may not be getting work, but I still
wanted to be tough learning. So producing led to more acting,
but really led to directing, which is what was directly
my first project. I knew that was where I belonged
for a lot of reasons, just for the lifestyle. It
(04:32):
wasn't a fan of the lifestyle for the actor and uh,
and also I just enjoyed the director's process so much.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
And was that at school when you first got the
directing bug, when.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
You were at the A five?
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Actually no, I was, you know, I was. I had
gone through the neighborhood playoffs. School of the theater as
an actor came out and within within a year I
knew I didn't I didn't like it and needed to
start producing right away. So I was really a young
actor in New York looking to get the education I
thought I needed, and so that's what led the producing
(05:08):
right away. I didn't go to AFI until probably ten
years later, after I had I directed in theater a
good deal. What happened once I started directing, I started
working almost immediately all over the country, in the regional
theaters in New York, abroad and in the all just
(05:31):
ting as much education as I could. And then once
I had you know, directed probably at least seventy five
or eighty plays, I decided I wanted to go into film,
which was my first love. But theater was more accessible
to me. I could produce it cheaply and quickly, and
(05:52):
I grew up fairly poor, and so the theater was
I was able to rent a rehearsal space and rehearse
for almost nothing and then the run a show for
six weeks. So when I was comfortable with the amount
of directing I had done, and while I felt I
would always, you know, do a good or a bad
job based on my the play the actors how I
(06:15):
was feeling, I felt I had kind of understood the
basic tools of the trade. And uh I knew that
movies would would pose a whole other set of challenges.
Uh and they do it. It's you know, I don't
think you can you of us really master that process
(06:38):
throughout an entire lifetime because they just moving the camera
six stations to the left or to the right changes
how an audience eves an event. Uh So, uh I
knew it. It would challenge me for for an entire
for an entire life.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yeah, well, you know, theater and screen are very different
disciplines from every person perspective, really, because there's really only
one camera ultimately in the theater, the audience and the
direction that you're facing. But there must be some crossover.
I mean, I have a good friend who's a theater actor,
(07:14):
and one of the things he loves about theatre as
opposed to TV or film work is that time that's
allowed for discovery oo. And you know, just having long
rehearsal time and working very collaboratively from scratch right. You know,
you're not surrounded by the sets initially, and you don't
hear the music initially, and you don't see the lighting initially.
(07:37):
Is there are there skills that you felt were really
transferable from your time in the theater that you could
take into TV and film?
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Well, yeah, well, I think there are always equivalencies in
terms we want to move an audience in a specific way,
and an audience response is something you always take with you.
What they get, what they don't get, how quick they
get it right, How fast an audience is, how much
they know in advance and kind of in a sense
(08:07):
of the audience's sensibilities, tastes and acum. How quickly they
can put two and two together and they're not being
any need to beat something to death. Also, you know,
working that close with actors and your friend is right,
the ability to sit in the room. I a good
(08:29):
theater rehearsal period it's probably three and a half or
four weeks, and you're never in those first few weeks
it's all discovery. You know, there's no pressure. You have
weeks to discover. We're mounting the play, we're putting up blocking,
but you're still examining and talking and discussing, whereas in
a movie, you know, sometimes you know, I've met my lead.
(08:49):
I picked them up from the airport, right, riven them
to the set and talk to the costume designer, and
then we're shooting within an hour. You know, there's what
kind of speed you're working with is kind of the
exact opposite, which is also a great challenge, right, You've
got you. So theater gave me a foundation that allowed
(09:12):
me to think really fast on my feet and to
have a really keen understanding of drama, of comedy, of
the actor. And mostly in film you learn that the
actor needs very little interference from you direct right, you're
(09:33):
really looking to where As in a play, I'll probably
I'm talking to the actors constantly because I'm preparing them
for a two and a half hour take that they
will run by themselves every night, right, Whereas in movies,
I'm preparing them for a two minute take and it's
(09:54):
generally a very simple human transaction. It's a scene of interrogation,
a scene of conciliations, some simple human transaction that they understand.
And the genius in movies is that we put together
forty to sixty of those little scenes that add up
(10:14):
to a you know, cathartic release for the for the audience,
and for your main characters. So it's those little scenes
that need very little interfere. What you're looking to do
more of in movies is is talking to them indirectly.
So I really I like to consider my work with
the actors as someone who informs them right through indirect
(10:39):
choices and allowed them and empower them to come to
the work right with their own instruments. And it's not
about you know, letting him rome or or improvised by themselves.
It's a really I prepare within an instry of my life,
and as I point out in the book, right what
I want is to and I usually go into a
(11:00):
scene knowing three to five versions of it, three to
five versions I think will work. I have my favorite,
I'll give it to them, but I won't tell them
where to stand, where to sit. Specifically, I may say
something like I've got some great ideas for this, but
I'm going to need your help. I think she comes
through the door, I think she sits at some point
(11:21):
and maybe maybe goes to the bar and makes a drink,
and then maybe at some point she's at the window
and opens the blinds. I'm not sure. And you do that?
Can you help me with that? And what that does
with the actor is it? It doesn't give them any
definites right or any strict protocols. But they are now
going to legitimately try that. And I basically have empowered
(11:44):
them to follow that path, right. I haven't told them
how to do it, what to do it, why to
do it right. I'm going to allow them to fill
in those blanks and those I know exactly where I
want her to sit, where I wanted to stand, where
I wanted to make the drink, where wanted to go
to the window. But too, I want to see that
on camera, because the camera is like a microscope and
(12:07):
it seem everything. It even put stuff there that isn't there,
so it can definitely see direction. And I want the
actor to be fully empowered to be in that process,
in that dog process as they make their way through
that scene for the first and last time. So the
U but without the knowledge of the theater, right, spending
(12:30):
hours and hours and hours with with with with actors
and uh and getting the sense of what what makes
them tick, how they work, the language for them, what
those instruments are like. I never would have been able
to come up with my approach to how I treat
them and film.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Yeah, I I imagine as well that that method doesn't
suit every actor, because you know, I've heard famously. I
think of Ridley's Scott directing Harrison Ford on Blade Runner,
where Harrison, you know, wanted more direction and Ridley was
very much like, well, no, I've employed you because I
know you can do the job. You know, I'm giving
you all the other other elements. I'm creating this fantastical
(13:08):
world and these costumes and everything else. But there are
actors that do need more than that gentle nudge. How
do you cope with actors that are perhaps on that
side of the wall.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
Then, you know what The thing I'm most protective of
is what I what I what I would do is
I tend to I never turned down a question, but
I like to paraphrase the question without actually giving an answer.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
That so I want them to I really want them
to come to it themselves. There's something really magical and
unique and special when I'm just not distilling my version
of this event. So so for me, when I what
I do if someone says to me so rob so,
I think I think my character is really really angry
(13:59):
with her, and my response won't be yes or no.
My response will be oh, oh, so, so you think
you're really angry with her, right, which just prompts him
to say, well, well, well, maybe not angry, but yeah,
maybe let them reason their way through it. So really,
(14:21):
what they need to they need to talk, they need
to find their way to the solution. I don't want
to give it to them because when I give it
to them, I've distilled it to its simplicity and to
it almost probably to its cliche in order to communicate it.
So I've distilled it to a cliche. I spit it
(14:43):
across the room to that person so they can then
assimilate the cliche, and by the time we've kind of
sucked the life out of it, we're running another take.
And I think what we want to do is allow
them to stay as fresh and open and empowered as possible.
So I've never had an actor say to me when
I've employed that, hey, you're not answering my question. We're
(15:05):
in a debate, right, and they don't get that. I'm
simply responding and repeating what they're saying or paraphrasing it
and allowing them to find their way to the truth,
which were like in a situation like that, what I'd
want them to eventually come to without saying it is well,
maybe not angry, but I may I just I'm I'm hurt.
(15:27):
I mean she's she cheated on me. I'm really hurt,
So I wouldn't I want to get to that place
by themselves? Is essentially it now there? And and like
you're suggesting, they're always right examples in which you still
actually have to get very direct with people. Uh. And
(15:48):
then I'm only going to talk to them in terms
of objectives and obstacles. What is the charactery stands in
their way? What are their actions? But my idea in
the blocking is to provide them, allow the blocking to
vide actions that informed them right, so that instead of
me having to tell them what their objectives and obstacles are,
(16:09):
the props I give them to use the suggestions of
blocking are going to inform them right to move in
a certain direction, right without me ever, having to tape that,
so they are calculating all that by themselves. Yeah, it's
a it's just a it's a very it's a more
hands off a way to But I what I noticed
(16:31):
and when I want you know, I had opportunity when
I was young to be on sets as an extra,
and I watched directors I really respected, and I was
shocked at how little input they had with the actors. Well,
they were up and running, you know, and uh, you know,
if you were to bring someone to set who was
not you know, savvy, and you ask them, well, can
(16:52):
you point to who the director is, they they'd be
wrong frequently, right, they'd probably put to the A D.
Who's doing all the pointing and screaming and bossing around
and yelling. Thattors tend to be a little more hands off,
I think the more they understand how powerful that camera is.
That we can plant ideas and feelings in puppets, in animations,
(17:17):
in animals, we can certainly right get that from a
human being, and the way we stage the scene.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
MM and that all sort of links straight back to
the very first maxim number one of seventy, which is
about creating this situation of kindness, to be kind and
create this safe haven, which will then kind of help
bring out the unexpected out.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Of your actors.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Because because there's nothing worse than working in an environment
in any career where fear is the thing that's ruling
over people. I work in live TV, and often fear
can take over a production and people are scared into
doing their job the most effective way and then and
(18:03):
maybe taking shortcuts. Whereas you know, if you create this
safe haven for people, particularly for an environment where all
of that pressure is on the actor, everybody is there
for that moment everything that you're right at the tip
of the spear at this point, aren't you. So how
do you how do you go about fostering that feeling
of kindness and create creating that safe haven what you're
(18:25):
kind of go to maxims for that?
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Yeah, you know, I put that number one because I
think it is number one. And you know, we're trying
to etch these and capture these human emotions and frailties,
and I don't think you can do that best when
you're working in an environment that is not kind.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
And oh so the the kindness it comes out in
a number of ways. I think it's never ever judging
any idea, and and every idea is welcome, and because
the bad idea usually leads to a good idea. And
(19:12):
certainly when mistakes are made, I want to encourage people.
I encourage people to come to me with mistakes right away,
without without and just so I'm aware of what's what's happening,
you know. And it comes down to the day to
day of you know, how you treat people. I make
sure that if I'm on a movie, by the time
(19:34):
I arrived day one, if there's one hundred and fifty
people on that crew, in many I haven't met yet,
I know all their names. H point of greeting everyone
every morning. I also make a point of after we're
done shooting, no matter how long the day is.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
That means so much to people on cruise, you know.
I have to say I've worked on many a live production,
you know, with hundreds of millions of views in some cases,
and just that handsh fake at the end, and that
thank you. It really does mean a lot, because otherwise
people are walking away with you know, that one negative
thought in their head that then gets amplified, or did
(20:10):
I do the right job? Is he okazy? Happy with
what I've done, Am I going to get on the
next gig? And all of those things. Just that handshake
just solidifies something in people.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Absolutely. I think you're you're so right, because you know,
when you're working a movie, if you're if you're doing
if you're a pa doing intermittent traffic control right half
a mile from the set on a walkie talkie, you
might as well be parking cars, right, and you more
money doing that, and you don't feel a part of
(20:41):
the of the organization. You don't feel a part of
the filmmaking. And I think you've got to seek everyone
out at the end of the day, and you're right,
thank them, handshake, thank them, And it really makes a difference,
I think in the overall tone of they you build
a community. What I always hated was when, and it's
(21:04):
particularly true on movie sets where this bitching would start,
people just felt like the obligation to bitch. And it's
that kind of low grade bitching that there's no solution.
I'm not even sure the problem is, but it's just
there and it creates this uncomfortable feeling all day. I
(21:26):
just hate being around it because I do think it
impacts the quality of the work. So the other thing
I do is communicate with people even before we start
and say, you know, we if something, if you have
a real problem, bring it to me and let's solve it.
And if you don't, then let's not talk about it
(21:47):
out loud. Then it's just you struggling through the day
and there's no there's no room for it. But legitimate
problems will be addressed and solved, and making sure that
there's that kind of communication with them upfront, because you're
you're dealing with a little society that come fether and
if you don't control it, it will control you. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Completely.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
It's not enough to just try to make a good movie, right.
You are responsible for one hundred and fifty souls, and
you need to do your best to make sure that
they feel involved and connected to the to the work
and to the quality of the work. And you'll get
people will start taking chances around you. People will give
(22:34):
those ideas that are a little bit off center but
end up being brilliant. But they won't give you those
if they're scared of you.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Yeah, it won't, don't.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
They feel you might make them feel stupid or or
or not experienced enough. So I think it's really about
the tone that you've set. That's and I think if
you're looking to make a good movie for me, it's
about wanting to I want to be around in a
community that I feel good about myself and about others.
(23:04):
The worst the second and will get better. But that's
a second choice. If you're only interested in making good movies,
you need to start with the people you're working with
and making sure you encourage them to come to you
with all ideas, bad ideas, and then work your way
to a better idea.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Yeah, I've seen that bitching happen on a cruise that
I've worked. I work with crews, you know that could
be upwards of one hundred hundred and fifty two hundred sometimes.
And as soon as that kind of attitude, there's a
sort of a consensus of attitude of eye rolling at
senior people, and it almost sort of gives people permission
(23:44):
to relinquish their responsibilities. They almost kind of turn a
blind eye if something bad is happening, Well, it's not
my responsibility. If that's what he wants to do, that
he can do that. Whereas if you involve people like
you say, you engage people, they feel safe they feel
like they can come out with some ideas that might
seem outlandish, but if it's a safe space, and even
(24:05):
if you turned down the idea initially, you never know
when that idea might come back, which which you do
bring up in the book as well, which is great
that you're you've come up You've had some things that
you've dismissed initially but it turned out to be the
right idea for a moment later further down the line.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And you don't those those ideas. What
I over time, what I've learned is that the ideas
I I find that I treasure the most are the
ones that initially seem like bad ideas or they initially
seem wrong or off base for this movie. And I've
(24:44):
learned that. You know, one of the best things I've
learned is I'm not the smartest person in the room.
I don't want to be anymore. And uh, and I
only know a little bit of how all of this works,
or I've I've done a my life, but I don't
within all of that. I've only seen a small fraction
(25:05):
of what life is right and from all of its angles.
So I want to why this intelligent human being would
give me an idea that it first seems so off base.
So those are the ones I really dive into. So
I think there's there probably will be a pearl in
there or something I've missed something or may not have understood.
(25:27):
So those are the ones that I think can really
bear gold for you down the road.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yeah, and reading through the book as well, I really
get the sense that you've always tried to strike this
balance between, you know, being in command of the situation
as a director is expected to be, but also having
that openness and almost a kind of vulnerability in a way.
I think you talk about exposing your blind spots so
that you know you can invite people to come in
and if they know better, then you will listen. Because
(25:55):
there's nothing worse than having somebody as a figurehead of
a production who thinks they know everything and all they
do is micro manage people.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
It can be so counter productive.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
Yeah, and narrow, right, you end up with a very
narrow production and it's it's really trigger So yeah, finding
that balance in leadership it is one of the great
things I love to study. What it's one of the
side my side hobbies, and making a movie is understanding
(26:28):
you know, leadership and what do you how do you
get the most out of people? How do you open
the door to them to provide good ideas. I always
see the job as someone My job is to have
a vision. My job is to chart the destination. But
then I want to empower the people I work with
(26:52):
to carry me there. Right, So it's going to be
the quality of their ideas and to be open with them,
not feel like I need to be the smartest person
in the room to have all the ideas, to simply
hire people I trust and then let them take me there.
And I think that is one of the things that's
taken a while to learn, to let go of the
(27:14):
need to control, because you know you're given the badge,
you know you're you're the so called leader of this pack,
and understanding that leadership is really about in many cases,
letting go. Uh that doesn't mean you you you show
up unprepared. I'm I'm I'm over prepared, usually to a
(27:35):
fault anything, and because I want to know how everything works.
But then all of that preparation gives me the freedom
to then say, Okay, this is your chance, Now show
me what do you think? Uh, this is what I've
come up with with my little brain, right, what are
(27:55):
your brains add to this and open to that? Is?
But it only comes out of a good deal of
experience and preparation. Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm never nervous about
not coming up with an answer. I've got four or
five ances already. Now I want to get someone coming
at it with a whole new look and approach to it.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
I like this idea that you mentioned where you will
do your camera plan or your blocking plan, and your
initial one you'll just throw it in the trash, and
then you'll do another one, and you'll probably throw that
away as well, maybe even a third, because by that
time you've kind of solidified something in your head that
you know where you are coming from. But you're also
leaving room for other people to come in with.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Ideas as well.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Yeah, I think it's really inspiring. I must have been
the first, you know. The leadership chapter applies to so
much about what I do in my part of the
TV industry, and I do feel like buying this. But
for quite a few people that I've worked with over
the years, I have to say that the next chapter
long about the camera and staging. I found really fascinating
(28:59):
as well, this idea that the camera photographs subtext. You know,
I'm somebody who has studied film, albeit you know, twenty
odd years ago, but there was there's such a nice
conciseness to how you communicate in the book, this idea
of two plus two equaling five and and you know,
(29:20):
striving for no redundancy. Can you just talk just I
don't want to give away all the secrets of the book,
but can you give us some idea of what you
mean by no redundancy? No redundancy, no redundancy?
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Sure? What we're what we're looking to do is you know,
we understand that the My premise is that the camera's
primary responsibility is to photograph the subtext. So directors your
job to organize the visual elements so that they create
the subtext. Right. We're not there to photograph dialogue, although
(29:54):
that happens. People talk, but we're not necessarily required to
put that on camera. We could, it could be off camera,
it could be offset, but we're primarily we're there to
photograph the visual story so that we can actually move
the audience visually. Uh. And the actor is to play
(30:16):
counterpoint to what's happening in the subtextual elements. So we're
really doing all of our talking to the audience indirectly.
What's most important is that we all the visual elements
we set up in frames should not be redundant to
each other, because that's when we the audience, audience gets distance,
(30:37):
we feel that word that the director's demanding that they
feel something or think something. We want to create a
set of visual elements that are non redundant, and we're
simply inviting the audience to solve the visual quest we're proposing,
and in that solution, they become connected to the screen,
(31:01):
become one, They become one with the story because now
they're solving that equation on their own terms. So when
we have non redundancy in the visual elements, in the
music elements, in the sound elements, in the wardrobe elements,
in light right, then all of those non redundant elements
(31:21):
the audience solves very quickly come up with the solution,
and then they're connected to your to your main characters.
And the tuplus Proubels five equation is you know, we're
setting it up so that the audience is going to
have the solution is not one that you'd expect, the
one that is unexpected. Right, that the magic and the
(31:44):
wonder of being a human being is really what we're
looking to capture. So the the simple ideas love camera, photographing, subtext,
the two plus threequels five equation. We're layering subtext, four ground,
begun and background, and then the the solution of that
moves the audience to a tuple of people's five understanding
(32:05):
of the main characters. And that's the kind of the
cornerstone of all the visual work I do as a
directing teacher, Right, that's where it all comes from. And
when we can when we are talking to the audience
indirectly like that, it's much more engaging because we have
(32:26):
seen movies in which everything is redundant. Right, the light
is doing what the camera angle is doing, the camera
angle is doing what the actor is doing. And say,
it's oh, so sad, and the actor is also said,
and the music's also sad, and the light is also said,
and the visuals are also sad. The audience feels like
(32:47):
you're demanding something of them. You must feel sad this,
but in fact, right, let's let this take place on
a break sunny day, right, we don't need that the shadows.
We need to we need to find counterpoint that has
meaning right in the visuals and in the in the
actors performances that that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Yeah, yeah, completely.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
And you know, I was just just the other night
I was talking to Randy Tom who has worked at
Skywalker Sound for many, many years, and we were talking
about how he loves to work on projects where they
engage the sound apartment early on in the process. It
might be on a big tempole movie, even you know,
in the previous stage, but ideally, you know, he said
(33:35):
it would be as far back as writing the script. Yeah,
and you mentioned that very thing in this so I
know that's going to be music to the years of
many of the people that work in sound, because there
are very few directors that will engage a sound apartment
that early on. I mean I spoke to Mark Mangini,
who was a sound designer on denny Ville Nerves June
(33:56):
from a few years ago, and how you know, the
sound effects that they came up with for like the
shielding device when they're having a combat scene, actually informed
the visuals and then the visuals kind of amplified that
and then fed back to maybe tweaking the sound in
this way. And it's so important to have those elements
(34:17):
so early on because otherwise you're not really there's not
really a collaboration of departments. They're just they're just sort
of additive in a way that doesn't feel like they're merging.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
You're so great, Yeah, they're just adding they're trying to
almost like scotch taping or band aids. Right, Yeah, the
movie that you move forward, they're really not part of
the entire process. So I even think, you know, I
encourage when I'm working with writers. My thought is, you know,
when you sit down, you're not writing a movie, right,
(34:50):
You're not writing dialogue, which many of them sit down
to do. What you're doing is you're composing a film,
and the tools you're using are not words or letters
or language. On the table. You have light, camera, actor, wardrobe,
music that's sitting on the desk with you. And now
(35:13):
when you say to yourself, right, how can I write?
How can I introduce this character with light, let's say, right,
or with shadow? So you're not sitting there writing a
dialogue that is going to hopefully create a sense of
importance for this main character. You're doing it all visually,
and that has much greater power ultimately than any piece
(35:35):
of dialogue. So the dialogue has to play counterpoint, you know.
I know I mentioned in the book the Hitchcock quote,
which is after he and the writer finish the screenplay,
the writer goes back and add some dialogue. It's because
the movie is complete, the visual story is complete, and
so I think it's it's understanding right at the core,
(36:00):
right what is what is the audience really responding to?
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Ed?
Speaker 3 (36:03):
And the writer of the screenplay from the beginning should
be thinking about sound, should take all those other elements,
and you ask yourself, how can I punctuate this scene
with sound? How can I underscore it with sound or
with music? Or would light or with shadow? I think
that's really the the key for the writer, and I
think it's a it's very liberating for the rise. We're
(36:24):
no longer relying just on dialogue like we are in
the theater to communicate.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Mm hmmm. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
This book has clearly been in the making for some time, Rob,
I mean, was there a particular moment where you suddenly thought, actually,
I do have a book in my head here, this
is something that I could you know have and it's
it's a it's a small book, you know, it's what
is it? It's like one hundred and two hundred pages
something like that, and you can hold it in your hand,
you can put it in your pocket. Was that something
(36:53):
that came to you kind of in a eureka moment?
Speaker 3 (36:57):
Yeah? Well, you know, over the years I've been teaching.
I've been a director for the past forty years, but
I've also been teaching for the past forty years. And
I taught so I could learn how to direct. And
but the uh, over the years, I've had students ask
me constantly, you know, can you recommend a book? And
I couldn't because you know, I love to read about
(37:21):
directing and about filmmaking. But every directing textbook I picked up,
I would read a chapter or two and I would
put it aside. My my shelf is covered with, you know,
unread great directing textbooks. You know where writers are, they
know what they're talking about, they're really good at it, right,
(37:43):
But that they're they're so dense and over explained that
the ideas rarely, if ever, would find their way into
my work. So so when I sat down to do this,
it was initially for my students, and the idea was
to write a book that would take these complex, uh
(38:06):
and sometimes abstract concepts and distill them to their essence
and them right down to the point in maybe half
a page or page or page and a half, and
make these these abstract concepts easily accessible, turn them into
practical tools that can be used immediately. You can go
(38:28):
out to borrow and use this particular tool.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (38:31):
It's really clearly defined, distilled to its essence, so you
can begin to work with it. In so many cases,
the books I'd read were didn't do that for me.
So and the idea down was to, okay, I want
them to. I want the student be able to have
this on hand all the time so they can put
it in their back pocket. Right. Most of the books
(38:55):
I read were just you know, hundreds and hundreds of pages,
and I wanted to be a portable uh. And what
I would do every day when when before I actually
wrote these maxims, now I have just a list of
them and my my my onset binder. I would read
them every day just to remind myself, Okay, these are
the basic these are the central tenets of what I'm
(39:16):
trying to do right. Uh. I love opening that book
every morning and seeing be kind. That's a great way
to day, you know. So it was really I really
did it so that I could for my students, so
I could make it make the work much more easily
accessible and and be able to change their work immediately.
(39:40):
But but you're right in that the concepts no have
been I've been working on them for four decades, right,
And so it's it's on that simplicity and uh and
and the brevity of the book only comes out because
of how much time I've spent with them.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Yeah, yeah, that you said that.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
You know, there's some abstract ideas in there, but there
was never a point where I was reading the book
where I thought, within moments, I thought, oh, that's so simple,
that makes so much sense. I never thought, you know,
I may have initially seen a title and thought, oh,
where are we going here, but within seconds I was
always like, Okay, I get it. And that's the thing.
You've made it so so accessible. There was one thing
(40:22):
I've written in my notes here that I wanted to
bring up as well. That you mentioned that people often
say write what you know, and it's so often misunderstood.
It's and you say, it's not about writing your own life,
it's about writing your from your beliefs.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Which is exactly what you've done in this book.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Yes, yes, yes, exactly. Yeah, And you're writing as a
As a writer, you're always going to being certainly write
whatever you want. Whenever you think you want to sit
down to write, please write it. But always know that
I think that you're always at your best when you're
writing what you know, because yeahs are universal, they're boiled
(41:02):
down to to simplicity. There are exchanges in your life
that are that are rare, that are unique that we
can't if you've if you've never worked in a certain
world and you're trying to write in that world, if
you've never lived in that world, it's really hard to
capture those small details, that special knowledge that only someone
(41:24):
who's lived that could possibly know. So I think, you know,
we should write whatever we feel inspired to write. But
I think that when we're writing what we know we are,
we can't be beat. It's hard to beat when you're
when you're writing from that perspective.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
Yeah, I'm one of the things I really appreciate about
this filled manuals. You call it rather than a textbook,
you could even call it an anti textbook. Is that
it never feels preachy, and it clearly reads like guidance
from someone who's been through all of these trials and
tribulations of directing. It's it's very pragmatical, tick and proactive,
(42:02):
and it seems, you know, you've it's been forged from
experience rather than heavy theory, which it could easily have
descended into. When you were writing it, did you find
that that balance between offering clear guidance and slipping into
sort of prescriptive rules, It was a difficult one. Or
do you kind of manage to distill this down so
(42:23):
much with you with your teaching that you do?
Speaker 3 (42:27):
Yeah, you know, it's I think it comes from years
of standing in front of a group of people and
trying to find a way to make it as accessible
as possible to that always trying to take ego out
of it, take any really any real kind of attitude
(42:51):
or a loovedness out of it, or arrogance, and always
honor the ideas and and to be to be ego
less in the process, otherwise that could get in the
way of the education. Right the idea stand on their
own and they can't be coming from a place of
(43:15):
ego at all. So I think that over and certainly
I wasn't successful at that in the beginning, right, That's
something I had to learn learned that people, you know,
my students, would were more successful when they when I
was able to leave my ego out of the process,
because you're not really challenging me. You're challenging the ideas,
(43:37):
and the ideas we can debate all day, right without
any threat of feeling a personal reaction. So that's something
that I think, just out of teaching them in the years,
has found its way into my approach to teaching and
to directing. You know, it's it's a I've I I
(44:01):
love the process. I feel like the luckiest person in
the world to to to be a director. Whenever I
have the opportunity, I'm filled with joy. And it's uh,
it's something that I want to make sure that is
when I'm when I'm teaching it as well as directing it,
my ego is at home and uh and touched safely
(44:21):
away away from people.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
Yeah, I think that's probably a really good place to
end it. But I recommend to people film, TV director's
field Manual seventy Maxims to Change Your Filmmaking by Rob Spira?
Speaker 1 (44:34):
Are you Spira? Spare Sparra, Rob Sparra, there you go.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
Well, yeah, no, it's fantastic book, and yeah, it's definitely
going on a few Christmas lists this year.
Speaker 3 (44:48):
Your kindness today and and your support and clearly you've
read this book very well. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
Yeah, I've read it a couple of times, you know,
because we as we before we hit recorders, we briefly
discussed the We've been trying to do this for a
little while, and I've had to cancel a couple of
times and stuff, so it's given me a good chance
to kind of go back and revisit some of it.
And I genuinely have carried some of this forward into
what I do, which is I'm kind of like a
live editor.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
I guess you could call it in live TV and
sport wow.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
And so yeah, I think there's probably like a like
another another book in this, you know, in terms of
how it would apply to my industry, But there's so
much crossover. It's particularly in that leadership chapter. It makes
so much sense to me, and it's really brought a
kind of I don't know, just a clarity to what
(45:38):
it is I do and how I could do things better.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
So I appreciate I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (45:42):
Thank you so much. I'm really touched.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
That was my conversation with Rob Spare, and honestly, it's
one of those conversations that just stays with me after
we recorded. You know, I've thought about that conversation a lot,
and I've thought about his book a lot.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
I've delved back into it a few more times.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
So if you're a director or thinking about directing, or frankly,
if you work in any collaborative creative field, Rob's book,
Film Slash, TV Director's Field Manual is one of the
most grounded, pragmatic books I've read in a long time.
It's clearly written by someone who's been through the full
range of experiences on set, the good days, the disasters,
the compromises, and he's come out the other side still
(46:37):
deeply invested in the people and the process. As this
episode goes out, we're coming to the end of the year,
so I just wanted to say huge thank you to
everyone who's listened, shared the show, supported it, and especially
to those of you backing the podcast on Patreon. There
are one hundred and twenty of you doing so, and
your support genuinely makes it possible for me to keep
doing this. It's been another great year of guests on
(46:59):
the podcast. We've had behind the scenes legends, people quietly
doing their incredible work across film. We've had authors, visual
effects people, production designers, production designers, art directors. Anyway, I'm
incredibly grateful to all of those people who've taken the
time to sit down and talk so openly about their work.
(47:19):
Looking ahead, there's plenty coming up. I've got a conversation
with John Campo Piano and Jim Bella about their documentary
The Farmer and the Shark, which is coming out soon hopefully,
and a great chat with Randy Tom, one of the
true legends of Skywalker Sound. I've also got a conversation
with somebody who was there documenting a very famous horror movie.
(47:41):
He was right there as it was being made, as
it was being developed. It's one that's been on the
back burner for a little while now, but I'm really
looking forward to getting that one out. I think you're
going to dig that. On the writing side, I've also
got some new articles on the way, including pieces based
on my visit to Industrial Lie Magic in Vancouver when
I went out there, and also and some time with Nilo.
(48:01):
As you will have heard in previous episodes, there's one
about Ilim's work on f One the movie as well
as Skywalker Sounds contributions to that same film. Plus there's
another one about Wayne McGregor exhibition that's on at Somerset
House currently called Infinite Bodies, and again ILM worked on
a piece. It's in fact the first piece that you see.
So those articles are coming out in the new year,
(48:23):
so look out for those, and you know, support me
where you can by reading those and sharing those as well.
If you enjoyed the show, as always, please consider leaving
a review. It will take you two minutes on Apple
Podcasts or wherever you listen could be Spotify for instance,
or maybe share it with a friend, or the best
(48:44):
option would be if you could support on Patreon. I
know it's an expensive time of year, but if you've
enjoyed my podcast for the last five years that I've
been doing now and you're still not supporting it on Patreon,
just come on board. There's plenty of different tiers to
choose from. You'll get some extra perks well, and seriously,
every bit helps more than you might think. I don't
really make money on this podcast. I make just enough
(49:06):
to justify doing it, so it really does need your support.
And with that, thank you once again for listening. Thank
you for a brilliant year. To all of my guests,
all of my listeners, all of my supporters, and wherever
you are, I wish you a very happy holiday. This
(49:57):
podcast is written, produced and edited by me Ja Benning.
Music is by Michael Hewitt Brown of MBI Music, weirding
Way Media,
Weird Being Way Media.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Hello, and welcome to the Film Yourmentaries podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
This is Jamie Benning and this is the show where
I talk to people behind the scenes of the films
and television we love. I also get to speak to
people about books they've made on the subject as well.
On My Yes Today is one of those. His name
is Rob Sperer. He's a director, longtime AFI conservatory instructor,
and the author of film and TV Director's Field Manual
(01:11):
seventy Maxims to Change Your Filmmaking Now. Rob has directed
features including The Sweet Life and Leprecorn in the Hood,
extensive television work on shows like Criminal Minds and Supernatural,
and he's spent decades teaching directors how to think visually,
how to lead cruise, and also to tell stories without
beating audiences over the head. His book is Deliberately Small,
(01:34):
deliberately practical, and deliberately unpreachy, a kind of anti textbook,
as he calls it, for directors that you can actually
carry on too. Set in your pocket, fits in your pocket.
And in this conversation we talk about everything from psychological
safety on set, to photographing subtext, to why kindness is
not just a moral choice but a creative one and
(01:56):
a lot more. Had really nice conversation with Rob. We
had arranged to do this a lot earlier, but I
had to cancel. I think we had some technical issues
at one point as well, and we finally got down
to it and we had a really good conversation, and
we've sort of stayed in touch since. We've had a
couple of emails to and fro. So I hope your
preparations for the holiday season have gone well. What is
(02:17):
it the twenty third today, A couple of days and
we'll all be stuffing our faces with food. So let's
get into this. Here's my conversation with Rob Sparer. Rober,
(02:45):
I appreciate you joining me today. Thanks for sending me
the book, The Film TV Director's Field Manual, seventy Maxims
to Change your Filmmaking. It's a fantastic book. It's, as
somebody describes on the back here, it's deeply insightful and
unnervingly concise. I mean, you've managed to compress what is
(03:08):
clearly a long career of yours into these seventy maxims.
But let's go back to the beginning. Where did it
all begin? Where did your creative life begin you talk
about a moment in high school I believe where it
sort of clicked.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
Yeah, yeah, you know, I was extremely shy and had
trouble correcting with people, and then it just struck me them.
I don't know what gave me the courage to do this,
but to try out for the senior play and ended
up getting cast in the lead. And it really never
stopped there. It was just this absolute hunger and need
(03:49):
to express myself that found its way into interacting initially,
and you know, I went to school New York and
studied with Sandy Meisner. You know, being a young character
actor and not being much work out there until you're
in your forties, I you know, I decided to just
start producing work that I could then act and so
(04:11):
I'd be able to learn my craft at a point
where I may not be getting work, but I still
wanted to be tough learning. So producing led to more acting,
but really led to directing, which is what was directly
my first project. I knew that was where I belonged
for a lot of reasons, just for the lifestyle. It
(04:32):
wasn't a fan of the lifestyle for the actor and uh,
and also I just enjoyed the director's process so much.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
And was that at school when you first got the
directing bug, when.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
You were at the A five?
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Actually no, I was, you know, I was. I had
gone through the neighborhood playoffs. School of the theater as
an actor came out and within within a year I
knew I didn't I didn't like it and needed to
start producing right away. So I was really a young
actor in New York looking to get the education I
thought I needed, and so that's what led the producing
(05:08):
right away. I didn't go to AFI until probably ten
years later, after I had I directed in theater a
good deal. What happened once I started directing, I started
working almost immediately all over the country, in the regional
theaters in New York, abroad and in the all just
(05:31):
ting as much education as I could. And then once
I had you know, directed probably at least seventy five
or eighty plays, I decided I wanted to go into film,
which was my first love. But theater was more accessible
to me. I could produce it cheaply and quickly, and
(05:52):
I grew up fairly poor, and so the theater was
I was able to rent a rehearsal space and rehearse
for almost nothing and then the run a show for
six weeks. So when I was comfortable with the amount
of directing I had done, and while I felt I
would always, you know, do a good or a bad
job based on my the play the actors how I
(06:15):
was feeling, I felt I had kind of understood the
basic tools of the trade. And uh I knew that
movies would would pose a whole other set of challenges.
Uh and they do it. It's you know, I don't
think you can you of us really master that process
(06:38):
throughout an entire lifetime because they just moving the camera
six stations to the left or to the right changes
how an audience eves an event. Uh So, uh I
knew it. It would challenge me for for an entire
for an entire life.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yeah, well, you know, theater and screen are very different
disciplines from every person perspective, really, because there's really only
one camera ultimately in the theater, the audience and the
direction that you're facing. But there must be some crossover.
I mean, I have a good friend who's a theater actor,
(07:14):
and one of the things he loves about theatre as
opposed to TV or film work is that time that's
allowed for discovery oo. And you know, just having long
rehearsal time and working very collaboratively from scratch right. You know,
you're not surrounded by the sets initially, and you don't
hear the music initially, and you don't see the lighting initially.
(07:37):
Is there are there skills that you felt were really
transferable from your time in the theater that you could
take into TV and film?
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Well, yeah, well, I think there are always equivalencies in
terms we want to move an audience in a specific way,
and an audience response is something you always take with you.
What they get, what they don't get, how quick they
get it right, How fast an audience is, how much
they know in advance and kind of in a sense
(08:07):
of the audience's sensibilities, tastes and acum. How quickly they
can put two and two together and they're not being
any need to beat something to death. Also, you know,
working that close with actors and your friend is right,
the ability to sit in the room. I a good
(08:29):
theater rehearsal period it's probably three and a half or
four weeks, and you're never in those first few weeks
it's all discovery. You know, there's no pressure. You have
weeks to discover. We're mounting the play, we're putting up blocking,
but you're still examining and talking and discussing, whereas in
a movie, you know, sometimes you know, I've met my lead.
(08:49):
I picked them up from the airport, right, riven them
to the set and talk to the costume designer, and
then we're shooting within an hour. You know, there's what
kind of speed you're working with is kind of the
exact opposite, which is also a great challenge, right, You've
got you. So theater gave me a foundation that allowed
(09:12):
me to think really fast on my feet and to
have a really keen understanding of drama, of comedy, of
the actor. And mostly in film you learn that the
actor needs very little interference from you direct right, you're
(09:33):
really looking to where As in a play, I'll probably
I'm talking to the actors constantly because I'm preparing them
for a two and a half hour take that they
will run by themselves every night, right, Whereas in movies,
I'm preparing them for a two minute take and it's
(09:54):
generally a very simple human transaction. It's a scene of interrogation,
a scene of conciliations, some simple human transaction that they understand.
And the genius in movies is that we put together
forty to sixty of those little scenes that add up
(10:14):
to a you know, cathartic release for the for the audience,
and for your main characters. So it's those little scenes
that need very little interfere. What you're looking to do
more of in movies is is talking to them indirectly.
So I really I like to consider my work with
the actors as someone who informs them right through indirect
(10:39):
choices and allowed them and empower them to come to
the work right with their own instruments. And it's not
about you know, letting him rome or or improvised by themselves.
It's a really I prepare within an instry of my life,
and as I point out in the book, right what
I want is to and I usually go into a
(11:00):
scene knowing three to five versions of it, three to
five versions I think will work. I have my favorite,
I'll give it to them, but I won't tell them
where to stand, where to sit. Specifically, I may say
something like I've got some great ideas for this, but
I'm going to need your help. I think she comes
through the door, I think she sits at some point
(11:21):
and maybe maybe goes to the bar and makes a drink,
and then maybe at some point she's at the window
and opens the blinds. I'm not sure. And you do that?
Can you help me with that? And what that does
with the actor is it? It doesn't give them any
definites right or any strict protocols. But they are now
going to legitimately try that. And I basically have empowered
(11:44):
them to follow that path, right. I haven't told them
how to do it, what to do it, why to
do it right. I'm going to allow them to fill
in those blanks and those I know exactly where I
want her to sit, where I wanted to stand, where
I wanted to make the drink, where wanted to go
to the window. But too, I want to see that
on camera, because the camera is like a microscope and
(12:07):
it seem everything. It even put stuff there that isn't there,
so it can definitely see direction. And I want the
actor to be fully empowered to be in that process,
in that dog process as they make their way through
that scene for the first and last time. So the
U but without the knowledge of the theater, right, spending
(12:30):
hours and hours and hours with with with with actors
and uh and getting the sense of what what makes
them tick, how they work, the language for them, what
those instruments are like. I never would have been able
to come up with my approach to how I treat
them and film.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Yeah, I I imagine as well that that method doesn't
suit every actor, because you know, I've heard famously. I
think of Ridley's Scott directing Harrison Ford on Blade Runner,
where Harrison, you know, wanted more direction and Ridley was
very much like, well, no, I've employed you because I
know you can do the job. You know, I'm giving
you all the other other elements. I'm creating this fantastical
(13:08):
world and these costumes and everything else. But there are
actors that do need more than that gentle nudge. How
do you cope with actors that are perhaps on that
side of the wall.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
Then, you know what The thing I'm most protective of
is what I what I what I would do is
I tend to I never turned down a question, but
I like to paraphrase the question without actually giving an answer.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
That so I want them to I really want them
to come to it themselves. There's something really magical and
unique and special when I'm just not distilling my version
of this event. So so for me, when I what
I do if someone says to me so rob so,
I think I think my character is really really angry
(13:59):
with her, and my response won't be yes or no.
My response will be oh, oh, so, so you think
you're really angry with her, right, which just prompts him
to say, well, well, well, maybe not angry, but yeah,
maybe let them reason their way through it. So really,
(14:21):
what they need to they need to talk, they need
to find their way to the solution. I don't want
to give it to them because when I give it
to them, I've distilled it to its simplicity and to
it almost probably to its cliche in order to communicate it.
So I've distilled it to a cliche. I spit it
(14:43):
across the room to that person so they can then
assimilate the cliche, and by the time we've kind of
sucked the life out of it, we're running another take.
And I think what we want to do is allow
them to stay as fresh and open and empowered as possible.
So I've never had an actor say to me when
I've employed that, hey, you're not answering my question. We're
(15:05):
in a debate, right, and they don't get that. I'm
simply responding and repeating what they're saying or paraphrasing it
and allowing them to find their way to the truth,
which were like in a situation like that, what I'd
want them to eventually come to without saying it is well,
maybe not angry, but I may I just I'm I'm hurt.
(15:27):
I mean she's she cheated on me. I'm really hurt,
So I wouldn't I want to get to that place
by themselves? Is essentially it now there? And and like
you're suggesting, they're always right examples in which you still
actually have to get very direct with people. Uh. And
(15:48):
then I'm only going to talk to them in terms
of objectives and obstacles. What is the charactery stands in
their way? What are their actions? But my idea in
the blocking is to provide them, allow the blocking to
vide actions that informed them right, so that instead of
me having to tell them what their objectives and obstacles are,
(16:09):
the props I give them to use the suggestions of
blocking are going to inform them right to move in
a certain direction, right without me ever, having to tape that,
so they are calculating all that by themselves. Yeah, it's
a it's just a it's a very it's a more
hands off a way to But I what I noticed
(16:31):
and when I want you know, I had opportunity when
I was young to be on sets as an extra,
and I watched directors I really respected, and I was
shocked at how little input they had with the actors. Well,
they were up and running, you know, and uh, you know,
if you were to bring someone to set who was
not you know, savvy, and you ask them, well, can
(16:52):
you point to who the director is, they they'd be
wrong frequently, right, they'd probably put to the A D.
Who's doing all the pointing and screaming and bossing around
and yelling. Thattors tend to be a little more hands off,
I think the more they understand how powerful that camera is.
That we can plant ideas and feelings in puppets, in animations,
(17:17):
in animals, we can certainly right get that from a
human being, and the way we stage the scene.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
MM and that all sort of links straight back to
the very first maxim number one of seventy, which is
about creating this situation of kindness, to be kind and
create this safe haven, which will then kind of help
bring out the unexpected out.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Of your actors.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Because because there's nothing worse than working in an environment
in any career where fear is the thing that's ruling
over people. I work in live TV, and often fear
can take over a production and people are scared into
doing their job the most effective way and then and
(18:03):
maybe taking shortcuts. Whereas you know, if you create this
safe haven for people, particularly for an environment where all
of that pressure is on the actor, everybody is there
for that moment everything that you're right at the tip
of the spear at this point, aren't you. So how
do you how do you go about fostering that feeling
of kindness and create creating that safe haven what you're
(18:25):
kind of go to maxims for that?
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Yeah, you know, I put that number one because I
think it is number one. And you know, we're trying
to etch these and capture these human emotions and frailties,
and I don't think you can do that best when
you're working in an environment that is not kind.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
And oh so the the kindness it comes out in
a number of ways. I think it's never ever judging
any idea, and and every idea is welcome, and because
the bad idea usually leads to a good idea. And
(19:12):
certainly when mistakes are made, I want to encourage people.
I encourage people to come to me with mistakes right away,
without without and just so I'm aware of what's what's happening,
you know. And it comes down to the day to
day of you know, how you treat people. I make
sure that if I'm on a movie, by the time
(19:34):
I arrived day one, if there's one hundred and fifty
people on that crew, in many I haven't met yet,
I know all their names. H point of greeting everyone
every morning. I also make a point of after we're
done shooting, no matter how long the day is.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
That means so much to people on cruise, you know.
I have to say I've worked on many a live production,
you know, with hundreds of millions of views in some cases,
and just that handsh fake at the end, and that
thank you. It really does mean a lot, because otherwise
people are walking away with you know, that one negative
thought in their head that then gets amplified, or did
(20:10):
I do the right job? Is he okazy? Happy with
what I've done, Am I going to get on the
next gig? And all of those things. Just that handshake
just solidifies something in people.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Absolutely. I think you're you're so right, because you know,
when you're working a movie, if you're if you're doing
if you're a pa doing intermittent traffic control right half
a mile from the set on a walkie talkie, you
might as well be parking cars, right, and you more
money doing that, and you don't feel a part of
(20:41):
the of the organization. You don't feel a part of
the filmmaking. And I think you've got to seek everyone
out at the end of the day, and you're right,
thank them, handshake, thank them, And it really makes a difference,
I think in the overall tone of they you build
a community. What I always hated was when, and it's
(21:04):
particularly true on movie sets where this bitching would start,
people just felt like the obligation to bitch. And it's
that kind of low grade bitching that there's no solution.
I'm not even sure the problem is, but it's just
there and it creates this uncomfortable feeling all day. I
(21:26):
just hate being around it because I do think it
impacts the quality of the work. So the other thing
I do is communicate with people even before we start
and say, you know, we if something, if you have
a real problem, bring it to me and let's solve it.
And if you don't, then let's not talk about it
(21:47):
out loud. Then it's just you struggling through the day
and there's no there's no room for it. But legitimate
problems will be addressed and solved, and making sure that
there's that kind of communication with them upfront, because you're
you're dealing with a little society that come fether and
if you don't control it, it will control you. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Completely.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
It's not enough to just try to make a good movie, right.
You are responsible for one hundred and fifty souls, and
you need to do your best to make sure that
they feel involved and connected to the to the work
and to the quality of the work. And you'll get
people will start taking chances around you. People will give
(22:34):
those ideas that are a little bit off center but
end up being brilliant. But they won't give you those
if they're scared of you.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Yeah, it won't, don't.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
They feel you might make them feel stupid or or
or not experienced enough. So I think it's really about
the tone that you've set. That's and I think if
you're looking to make a good movie for me, it's
about wanting to I want to be around in a
community that I feel good about myself and about others.
(23:04):
The worst the second and will get better. But that's
a second choice. If you're only interested in making good movies,
you need to start with the people you're working with
and making sure you encourage them to come to you
with all ideas, bad ideas, and then work your way
to a better idea.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Yeah, I've seen that bitching happen on a cruise that
I've worked. I work with crews, you know that could
be upwards of one hundred hundred and fifty two hundred sometimes.
And as soon as that kind of attitude, there's a
sort of a consensus of attitude of eye rolling at
senior people, and it almost sort of gives people permission
(23:44):
to relinquish their responsibilities. They almost kind of turn a
blind eye if something bad is happening, Well, it's not
my responsibility. If that's what he wants to do, that
he can do that. Whereas if you involve people like
you say, you engage people, they feel safe they feel
like they can come out with some ideas that might
seem outlandish, but if it's a safe space, and even
(24:05):
if you turned down the idea initially, you never know
when that idea might come back, which which you do
bring up in the book as well, which is great
that you're you've come up You've had some things that
you've dismissed initially but it turned out to be the
right idea for a moment later further down the line.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And you don't those those ideas. What
I over time, what I've learned is that the ideas
I I find that I treasure the most are the
ones that initially seem like bad ideas or they initially
seem wrong or off base for this movie. And I've
(24:44):
learned that. You know, one of the best things I've
learned is I'm not the smartest person in the room.
I don't want to be anymore. And uh, and I
only know a little bit of how all of this works,
or I've I've done a my life, but I don't
within all of that. I've only seen a small fraction
(25:05):
of what life is right and from all of its angles.
So I want to why this intelligent human being would
give me an idea that it first seems so off base.
So those are the ones I really dive into. So
I think there's there probably will be a pearl in
there or something I've missed something or may not have understood.
(25:27):
So those are the ones that I think can really
bear gold for you down the road.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yeah, and reading through the book as well, I really
get the sense that you've always tried to strike this
balance between, you know, being in command of the situation
as a director is expected to be, but also having
that openness and almost a kind of vulnerability in a way.
I think you talk about exposing your blind spots so
that you know you can invite people to come in
and if they know better, then you will listen. Because
(25:55):
there's nothing worse than having somebody as a figurehead of
a production who thinks they know everything and all they
do is micro manage people.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
It can be so counter productive.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
Yeah, and narrow, right, you end up with a very
narrow production and it's it's really trigger So yeah, finding
that balance in leadership it is one of the great
things I love to study. What it's one of the
side my side hobbies, and making a movie is understanding
(26:28):
you know, leadership and what do you how do you
get the most out of people? How do you open
the door to them to provide good ideas. I always
see the job as someone My job is to have
a vision. My job is to chart the destination. But
then I want to empower the people I work with
(26:52):
to carry me there. Right, So it's going to be
the quality of their ideas and to be open with them,
not feel like I need to be the smartest person
in the room to have all the ideas, to simply
hire people I trust and then let them take me there.
And I think that is one of the things that's
taken a while to learn, to let go of the
(27:14):
need to control, because you know you're given the badge,
you know you're you're the so called leader of this pack,
and understanding that leadership is really about in many cases,
letting go. Uh that doesn't mean you you you show
up unprepared. I'm I'm I'm over prepared, usually to a
(27:35):
fault anything, and because I want to know how everything works.
But then all of that preparation gives me the freedom
to then say, Okay, this is your chance, Now show
me what do you think? Uh, this is what I've
come up with with my little brain, right, what are
(27:55):
your brains add to this and open to that? Is?
But it only comes out of a good deal of
experience and preparation. Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm never nervous about
not coming up with an answer. I've got four or
five ances already. Now I want to get someone coming
at it with a whole new look and approach to it.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
I like this idea that you mentioned where you will
do your camera plan or your blocking plan, and your
initial one you'll just throw it in the trash, and
then you'll do another one, and you'll probably throw that
away as well, maybe even a third, because by that
time you've kind of solidified something in your head that
you know where you are coming from. But you're also
leaving room for other people to come in with.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Ideas as well.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Yeah, I think it's really inspiring. I must have been
the first, you know. The leadership chapter applies to so
much about what I do in my part of the
TV industry, and I do feel like buying this. But
for quite a few people that I've worked with over
the years, I have to say that the next chapter
long about the camera and staging. I found really fascinating
(28:59):
as well, this idea that the camera photographs subtext. You know,
I'm somebody who has studied film, albeit you know, twenty
odd years ago, but there was there's such a nice
conciseness to how you communicate in the book, this idea
of two plus two equaling five and and you know,
(29:20):
striving for no redundancy. Can you just talk just I
don't want to give away all the secrets of the book,
but can you give us some idea of what you
mean by no redundancy? No redundancy, no redundancy?
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Sure? What we're what we're looking to do is you know,
we understand that the My premise is that the camera's
primary responsibility is to photograph the subtext. So directors your
job to organize the visual elements so that they create
the subtext. Right. We're not there to photograph dialogue, although
(29:54):
that happens. People talk, but we're not necessarily required to
put that on camera. We could, it could be off camera,
it could be offset, but we're primarily we're there to
photograph the visual story so that we can actually move
the audience visually. Uh. And the actor is to play
(30:16):
counterpoint to what's happening in the subtextual elements. So we're
really doing all of our talking to the audience indirectly.
What's most important is that we all the visual elements
we set up in frames should not be redundant to
each other, because that's when we the audience, audience gets distance,
(30:37):
we feel that word that the director's demanding that they
feel something or think something. We want to create a
set of visual elements that are non redundant, and we're
simply inviting the audience to solve the visual quest we're proposing,
and in that solution, they become connected to the screen,
(31:01):
become one, They become one with the story because now
they're solving that equation on their own terms. So when
we have non redundancy in the visual elements, in the
music elements, in the sound elements, in the wardrobe elements,
in light right, then all of those non redundant elements
(31:21):
the audience solves very quickly come up with the solution,
and then they're connected to your to your main characters.
And the tuplus Proubels five equation is you know, we're
setting it up so that the audience is going to
have the solution is not one that you'd expect, the
one that is unexpected. Right, that the magic and the
(31:44):
wonder of being a human being is really what we're
looking to capture. So the the simple ideas love camera, photographing, subtext,
the two plus threequels five equation. We're layering subtext, four ground,
begun and background, and then the the solution of that
moves the audience to a tuple of people's five understanding
(32:05):
of the main characters. And that's the kind of the
cornerstone of all the visual work I do as a
directing teacher, Right, that's where it all comes from. And
when we can when we are talking to the audience
indirectly like that, it's much more engaging because we have
(32:26):
seen movies in which everything is redundant. Right, the light
is doing what the camera angle is doing, the camera
angle is doing what the actor is doing. And say,
it's oh, so sad, and the actor is also said,
and the music's also sad, and the light is also said,
and the visuals are also sad. The audience feels like
(32:47):
you're demanding something of them. You must feel sad this,
but in fact, right, let's let this take place on
a break sunny day, right, we don't need that the shadows.
We need to we need to find counterpoint that has
meaning right in the visuals and in the in the
actors performances that that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Yeah, yeah, completely.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
And you know, I was just just the other night
I was talking to Randy Tom who has worked at
Skywalker Sound for many, many years, and we were talking
about how he loves to work on projects where they
engage the sound apartment early on in the process. It
might be on a big tempole movie, even you know,
in the previous stage, but ideally, you know, he said
(33:35):
it would be as far back as writing the script. Yeah,
and you mentioned that very thing in this so I
know that's going to be music to the years of
many of the people that work in sound, because there
are very few directors that will engage a sound apartment
that early on. I mean I spoke to Mark Mangini,
who was a sound designer on denny Ville Nerves June
(33:56):
from a few years ago, and how you know, the
sound effects that they came up with for like the
shielding device when they're having a combat scene, actually informed
the visuals and then the visuals kind of amplified that
and then fed back to maybe tweaking the sound in
this way. And it's so important to have those elements
(34:17):
so early on because otherwise you're not really there's not
really a collaboration of departments. They're just they're just sort
of additive in a way that doesn't feel like they're merging.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
You're so great, Yeah, they're just adding they're trying to
almost like scotch taping or band aids. Right, Yeah, the
movie that you move forward, they're really not part of
the entire process. So I even think, you know, I
encourage when I'm working with writers. My thought is, you know,
when you sit down, you're not writing a movie, right,
(34:50):
You're not writing dialogue, which many of them sit down
to do. What you're doing is you're composing a film,
and the tools you're using are not words or letters
or language. On the table. You have light, camera, actor, wardrobe,
music that's sitting on the desk with you. And now
(35:13):
when you say to yourself, right, how can I write?
How can I introduce this character with light, let's say, right,
or with shadow? So you're not sitting there writing a
dialogue that is going to hopefully create a sense of
importance for this main character. You're doing it all visually,
and that has much greater power ultimately than any piece
(35:35):
of dialogue. So the dialogue has to play counterpoint, you know.
I know I mentioned in the book the Hitchcock quote,
which is after he and the writer finish the screenplay,
the writer goes back and add some dialogue. It's because
the movie is complete, the visual story is complete, and
so I think it's it's understanding right at the core,
(36:00):
right what is what is the audience really responding to?
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Ed?
Speaker 3 (36:03):
And the writer of the screenplay from the beginning should
be thinking about sound, should take all those other elements,
and you ask yourself, how can I punctuate this scene
with sound? How can I underscore it with sound or
with music? Or would light or with shadow? I think
that's really the the key for the writer, and I
think it's a it's very liberating for the rise. We're
(36:24):
no longer relying just on dialogue like we are in
the theater to communicate.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Mm hmmm. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
This book has clearly been in the making for some time, Rob,
I mean, was there a particular moment where you suddenly thought, actually,
I do have a book in my head here, this
is something that I could you know have and it's
it's a it's a small book, you know, it's what
is it? It's like one hundred and two hundred pages
something like that, and you can hold it in your hand,
you can put it in your pocket. Was that something
(36:53):
that came to you kind of in a eureka moment?
Speaker 3 (36:57):
Yeah? Well, you know, over the years I've been teaching.
I've been a director for the past forty years, but
I've also been teaching for the past forty years. And
I taught so I could learn how to direct. And
but the uh, over the years, I've had students ask
me constantly, you know, can you recommend a book? And
I couldn't because you know, I love to read about
(37:21):
directing and about filmmaking. But every directing textbook I picked up,
I would read a chapter or two and I would
put it aside. My my shelf is covered with, you know,
unread great directing textbooks. You know where writers are, they
know what they're talking about, they're really good at it, right,
(37:43):
But that they're they're so dense and over explained that
the ideas rarely, if ever, would find their way into
my work. So so when I sat down to do this,
it was initially for my students, and the idea was
to write a book that would take these complex, uh
(38:06):
and sometimes abstract concepts and distill them to their essence
and them right down to the point in maybe half
a page or page or page and a half, and
make these these abstract concepts easily accessible, turn them into
practical tools that can be used immediately. You can go
(38:28):
out to borrow and use this particular tool.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (38:31):
It's really clearly defined, distilled to its essence, so you
can begin to work with it. In so many cases,
the books I'd read were didn't do that for me.
So and the idea down was to, okay, I want
them to. I want the student be able to have
this on hand all the time so they can put
it in their back pocket. Right. Most of the books
(38:55):
I read were just you know, hundreds and hundreds of pages,
and I wanted to be a portable uh. And what
I would do every day when when before I actually
wrote these maxims, now I have just a list of
them and my my my onset binder. I would read
them every day just to remind myself, Okay, these are
the basic these are the central tenets of what I'm
(39:16):
trying to do right. Uh. I love opening that book
every morning and seeing be kind. That's a great way
to day, you know. So it was really I really
did it so that I could for my students, so
I could make it make the work much more easily
accessible and and be able to change their work immediately.
(39:40):
But but you're right in that the concepts no have
been I've been working on them for four decades, right,
And so it's it's on that simplicity and uh and
and the brevity of the book only comes out because
of how much time I've spent with them.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Yeah, yeah, that you said that.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
You know, there's some abstract ideas in there, but there
was never a point where I was reading the book
where I thought, within moments, I thought, oh, that's so simple,
that makes so much sense. I never thought, you know,
I may have initially seen a title and thought, oh,
where are we going here, but within seconds I was
always like, Okay, I get it. And that's the thing.
You've made it so so accessible. There was one thing
(40:22):
I've written in my notes here that I wanted to
bring up as well. That you mentioned that people often
say write what you know, and it's so often misunderstood.
It's and you say, it's not about writing your own life,
it's about writing your from your beliefs.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Which is exactly what you've done in this book.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Yes, yes, yes, exactly. Yeah, And you're writing as a
As a writer, you're always going to being certainly write
whatever you want. Whenever you think you want to sit
down to write, please write it. But always know that
I think that you're always at your best when you're
writing what you know, because yeahs are universal, they're boiled
(41:02):
down to to simplicity. There are exchanges in your life
that are that are rare, that are unique that we
can't if you've if you've never worked in a certain
world and you're trying to write in that world, if
you've never lived in that world, it's really hard to
capture those small details, that special knowledge that only someone
(41:24):
who's lived that could possibly know. So I think, you know,
we should write whatever we feel inspired to write. But
I think that when we're writing what we know we are,
we can't be beat. It's hard to beat when you're
when you're writing from that perspective.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
Yeah, I'm one of the things I really appreciate about
this filled manuals. You call it rather than a textbook,
you could even call it an anti textbook. Is that
it never feels preachy, and it clearly reads like guidance
from someone who's been through all of these trials and
tribulations of directing. It's it's very pragmatical, tick and proactive,
(42:02):
and it seems, you know, you've it's been forged from
experience rather than heavy theory, which it could easily have
descended into. When you were writing it, did you find
that that balance between offering clear guidance and slipping into
sort of prescriptive rules, It was a difficult one. Or
do you kind of manage to distill this down so
(42:23):
much with you with your teaching that you do?
Speaker 3 (42:27):
Yeah, you know, it's I think it comes from years
of standing in front of a group of people and
trying to find a way to make it as accessible
as possible to that always trying to take ego out
of it, take any really any real kind of attitude
(42:51):
or a loovedness out of it, or arrogance, and always
honor the ideas and and to be to be ego
less in the process, otherwise that could get in the
way of the education. Right the idea stand on their
own and they can't be coming from a place of
(43:15):
ego at all. So I think that over and certainly
I wasn't successful at that in the beginning, right, That's
something I had to learn learned that people, you know,
my students, would were more successful when they when I
was able to leave my ego out of the process,
because you're not really challenging me. You're challenging the ideas,
(43:37):
and the ideas we can debate all day, right without
any threat of feeling a personal reaction. So that's something
that I think, just out of teaching them in the years,
has found its way into my approach to teaching and
to directing. You know, it's it's a I've I I
(44:01):
love the process. I feel like the luckiest person in
the world to to to be a director. Whenever I
have the opportunity, I'm filled with joy. And it's uh,
it's something that I want to make sure that is
when I'm when I'm teaching it as well as directing it,
my ego is at home and uh and touched safely
(44:21):
away away from people.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
Yeah, I think that's probably a really good place to
end it. But I recommend to people film, TV director's
field Manual seventy Maxims to Change Your Filmmaking by Rob Spira?
Speaker 1 (44:34):
Are you Spira? Spare Sparra, Rob Sparra, there you go.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
Well, yeah, no, it's fantastic book, and yeah, it's definitely
going on a few Christmas lists this year.
Speaker 3 (44:48):
Your kindness today and and your support and clearly you've
read this book very well. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
Yeah, I've read it a couple of times, you know,
because we as we before we hit recorders, we briefly
discussed the We've been trying to do this for a
little while, and I've had to cancel a couple of
times and stuff, so it's given me a good chance
to kind of go back and revisit some of it.
And I genuinely have carried some of this forward into
what I do, which is I'm kind of like a
live editor.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
I guess you could call it in live TV and
sport wow.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
And so yeah, I think there's probably like a like
another another book in this, you know, in terms of
how it would apply to my industry, But there's so
much crossover. It's particularly in that leadership chapter. It makes
so much sense to me, and it's really brought a
kind of I don't know, just a clarity to what
(45:38):
it is I do and how I could do things better.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
So I appreciate I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (45:42):
Thank you so much. I'm really touched.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
That was my conversation with Rob Spare, and honestly, it's
one of those conversations that just stays with me after
we recorded. You know, I've thought about that conversation a lot,
and I've thought about his book a lot.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
I've delved back into it a few more times.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
So if you're a director or thinking about directing, or frankly,
if you work in any collaborative creative field, Rob's book,
Film Slash, TV Director's Field Manual is one of the
most grounded, pragmatic books I've read in a long time.
It's clearly written by someone who's been through the full
range of experiences on set, the good days, the disasters,
the compromises, and he's come out the other side still
(46:37):
deeply invested in the people and the process. As this
episode goes out, we're coming to the end of the year,
so I just wanted to say huge thank you to
everyone who's listened, shared the show, supported it, and especially
to those of you backing the podcast on Patreon. There
are one hundred and twenty of you doing so, and
your support genuinely makes it possible for me to keep
doing this. It's been another great year of guests on
(46:59):
the podcast. We've had behind the scenes legends, people quietly
doing their incredible work across film. We've had authors, visual
effects people, production designers, production designers, art directors. Anyway, I'm
incredibly grateful to all of those people who've taken the
time to sit down and talk so openly about their work.
(47:19):
Looking ahead, there's plenty coming up. I've got a conversation
with John Campo Piano and Jim Bella about their documentary
The Farmer and the Shark, which is coming out soon hopefully,
and a great chat with Randy Tom, one of the
true legends of Skywalker Sound. I've also got a conversation
with somebody who was there documenting a very famous horror movie.
(47:41):
He was right there as it was being made, as
it was being developed. It's one that's been on the
back burner for a little while now, but I'm really
looking forward to getting that one out. I think you're
going to dig that. On the writing side, I've also
got some new articles on the way, including pieces based
on my visit to Industrial Lie Magic in Vancouver when
I went out there, and also and some time with Nilo.
(48:01):
As you will have heard in previous episodes, there's one
about Ilim's work on f One the movie as well
as Skywalker Sounds contributions to that same film. Plus there's
another one about Wayne McGregor exhibition that's on at Somerset
House currently called Infinite Bodies, and again ILM worked on
a piece. It's in fact the first piece that you see.
So those articles are coming out in the new year,
(48:23):
so look out for those, and you know, support me
where you can by reading those and sharing those as well.
If you enjoyed the show, as always, please consider leaving
a review. It will take you two minutes on Apple
Podcasts or wherever you listen could be Spotify for instance,
or maybe share it with a friend, or the best
(48:44):
option would be if you could support on Patreon. I
know it's an expensive time of year, but if you've
enjoyed my podcast for the last five years that I've
been doing now and you're still not supporting it on Patreon,
just come on board. There's plenty of different tiers to
choose from. You'll get some extra perks well, and seriously,
every bit helps more than you might think. I don't
really make money on this podcast. I make just enough
(49:06):
to justify doing it, so it really does need your support.
And with that, thank you once again for listening. Thank
you for a brilliant year. To all of my guests,
all of my listeners, all of my supporters, and wherever
you are, I wish you a very happy holiday. This
(49:57):
podcast is written, produced and edited by me Ja Benning.
Music is by Michael Hewitt Brown of MBI Music, weirding
Way Media,
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