Unity in the Church and Your Spiritual Gifts with Chase Rashad

Summary

In this conversation, Pastor Chase discusses the importance of unity and interdependence in the church. He shares how his book, Seamless, explores the topic of spiritual gifts and how they can foster greater unity among believers. The conversation also touches on the challenges of navigating a multicultural church in an individualistic society, as well as the need for hospitality and love towards immigrants. Pastor Chase emphasizes the importance of reflecting God's kingdom in the church and embracing diversity. The conversation explores the challenges and importance of creating a multicultural and multigenerational church. It emphasizes the need for intentional engagement, active participation, and the recognition of the value and wisdom of all members. The conversation also highlights the role of the Holy Spirit in guiding and empowering the church to make disciples and bring about the redemption of the earth. The book 'Seamless' by Chase Rashad Stancle is recommended as a resource for further exploration of these topics.

Bio


Chase Rashad serves as lead pastor at Union Christian Church, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 
a musician, and racial equity coach for many schools, churches, and businesses. He
holds a Bachelor’s in Biblical Studies from Indiana Wesleyan University and a Master's
in Christian Ministry from Wesley Seminary. Chase and his wife, Christine, have four
children. Chase has recently authored a thought-provoking book titled, "SEAMLESS: 
What Your Spiritual Gifts Are Really For."

Takeaways

• Unity and interdependence are essential for believers to reflect Christ and experience the same kind of unity that Jesus has with the Father.
• The church should be a foretaste of the coming age, reflecting the diversity and unity described in Revelation 7:9.
• In an individualistic society, it is important for Christians to navigate the tension between their earthly citizenship and their identity as citizens of the kingdom of God.
• Hospitality and love should be extended to immigrants, reflecting God's heart for all people.
• Cultivating a multicultural church requires the Holy Spirit, understanding, vulnerability, and unconditional love. Creating a multicultural and multigenerational church requires intentional engagement and active participation from all members.
• Recognizing the value and wisdom of all individuals, regardless of age, ethnicity, or cultural background, is essential for building a thriving church community.
• The role of the Holy Spirit is crucial in guiding and empowering the church to make disciples and bring about the redemption of the earth.
• The book 'Seamless' by Chase Rashad Stancle is recommended as a resource for further exploration of these topics.

🔗 Find Seamless on Amazon and Wesleyan Publishing House

📩 Connect with Pastor Chase: [e-mail]

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Holy Spirit led me to read First Corinthians, and
it was like it hit me like a sack of
potatoes across my face. Bro like the fact that Paul,
throughout the whole Book of Corinthians, is really imploring that
the Corinthian believers would really foster unity amongst one another.

(00:22):
And then specifically that the Holy Spirit has divvied out
his power amongst believers to encourage that interdependence and not
only just encourage it, but make it a necessity that
we reflect Christ by being interdependent.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
Welcome back to two Pentecostals and a microphone. We are
here today or I am here today. Bryce couldn't be
to be here for this one, but we are here
with Pastor Chase Uh. He is pastor in Michigan. Which
city are you in?

Speaker 1 (01:08):
Grand Rapids, Michigan, which is the western part of the
Lower Peninsula.

Speaker 2 (01:14):
Great and you are a pastor of Union is a
Union Christian Church?

Speaker 1 (01:19):
Unison, You're good, Unison Christian Church. Siries. Siri doesn't know
how to pronounce it either, like Unissan. Hear he can't
pronounce my right, It's all good. Well.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
He is the author of a book that we're going
to talk about a little bit called Seamless and this
is a book on the gifts of the spirit and
it's uh, it's been very interesting. I've been reading that,
diving into that last couple of days. So great to
have you on the podcast, Pastor. Absolutely, thank you very
much for letting me be a part of it.

Speaker 1 (01:54):
Honestly, it's been really cool to kind of talk about
one spiritual gifts, but then also just ministry broadly speaking,
and so like knowing that you all that you all
end up talking about so many different subjects for ministry
and believers is like, oh, this is great. I love that.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
So yeah, thanks, perfect great match. All right, So I'm
excited about this book. I have to tell you. I
we've interviewed a lot of authors, and usually I mean
there's always something good. You know, everybody has some good ideas.
There's uh, you know, it's hit or miss. How much
of the book you actually enjoy, uh, because sometimes there's
a lot of it seems like there's a lot of
fluff or writing styles can be a little hard to read.

(02:34):
Sometimes I've really enjoyed this. I've dove in. I haven't
read the entire thing yet, but I've really enjoyed it
like you're writing style. I like, man, thanks your the topic.
I just I think it's.

Speaker 1 (02:47):
Very timely, uh for the church.

Speaker 2 (02:49):
So yeah, let's let's kick it off. You want to
you want to tell me a little bit about why
you decided to write this book in the first place.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
Oh, absolutely, so so funny thing. I didn't actually intend
to start writing about spiritual gifts initially. Ultimately I was
I've been burdened by Jesus's prayer in John chapter seventeen
for a while, and so kind of how it's laid out,
Jesus starts off praying for himself, talking about giving God

(03:20):
the Father glory and completing the work that he's done,
but then also starts praying for the disciples, and then
the last part of that, he's praying for everyone who
will believe in him because of the message of these disciples,
and ultimately that's you and I and everybody else that's
the Christ follower right now, right And the one thing
he prays for us is that not that we would

(03:41):
be big, and not that our churches would be amazing,
and not that our songs would be great, but specifically
that we would experience the same kind of unity that
he experiences with the Father, and that unity would be
the thing that allows the world to know that the
Father sent him and that the Father loves us. And
so that prayer really is a burden of mine, because man,

(04:07):
we pray for a whole lot in Jesus' name, right,
like we ask for so much in Jesus name, and
the one thing that He's asked for for the church
we seem to struggle with. So so ultimately I started
off writing the book and it was the intent was
for it to be about how can we foster greater

(04:30):
unity as believers? How can we utilize the skills and
the talents we have in a way that will allow
us to ultimately experience interdependence upon one another and lean
into our need for each other as sisters and brothers.
And I was like, well, God, that don't really feel
like a whole book. That's like a blog. So I'm

(04:51):
gonna need like a little more. And so and as
I was praying, I mean just kind of you know,
in some time of prayer and devotion, the Holy Spirit
led me to read First Corinthians and it was like
it hit me like a sack of potatoes across my face.
Bro like the fact that Paul, throughout the whole Book

(05:14):
of Corinthians is really imploring that the Corinthian believers would
really foster unity amongst one another, and then specifically that
the Holy Spirit has divvied out his power amongst believers
to encourage that interdependence and not only just encourage it,

(05:36):
but make it a necessity that we reflect Christ by
being interdependent. And so that's really kind of how the
book became what it was. And ultimately it's like it
just all smashed together and I'm grateful. I'm grateful for
that time with God, but also grateful for being able
to see spiritual gifts in this way. Now that's great.

Speaker 2 (05:56):
Yeah, I think that's so overlooked because we do, like
you said, we pray for every thing in Jesus name,
and we expect it all, but the one thing that
He wants.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
Us to really pray for.

Speaker 2 (06:06):
There was a in our I'm part of the United
Pentecostal Church, so I don't know if you're familiar with
the revival, there was a great revival in our our movement,
our organization, I guess at a in the Ethiopia in
the nineties, and it was like, I mean it was.
It was huge.

Speaker 1 (06:23):
It was just it was amazing.

Speaker 2 (06:24):
But the guy who had basically preached those big revivals,
those big crusades, he kind of said after the fact
that you know, I didn't really do anything. I just
showed up. God was doing the work, you know, I
was just there. But they asked him what did you
pray for? I think it was him, and then the
end country organizer, the guy, uh, the Ethiopian pastor, Teclamerium

(06:47):
was his name, but anyway, he he said, we didn't
pray for revival. We didn't pray for a great move
of God. We prayed for unity. And when we all
came together in unity, like I mean, the Holy Ghost
was poured out, come on and seventy some thousand people
you know, receive the Holy gust and like that, that

(07:08):
was incredible. But it was unity they prayed for. Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (07:13):
I feel like that's kind of an I'm glad you
she said that, and I look forward to like looking
that up more because I think we overlook that for
those of us who are here in the States praying
for seeking, trying to work for some type of revival,
thinking that it's going to come through this outpouring of
evangelistic effort or this outpouring of our programs or us

(07:37):
outpouring of something that we create in Jesus' name, which
is those are things are wonderful, but it's misplaced anticipation
if we believe it's gonna come because we did a
bunch of stuff, when the reality is the one thing
Jesus is asking for, then the fruit will come out
of that. So like the revival will come out of

(08:00):
our unity. And so it again where we've just we've
got We've got it backwards.

Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yes, I think so we we focus too much on
programs and which are necessary. It's an out of it,
but it's not what It's not what brings your vival.
So I want to ask you about this. So I
understand the concept of unconditional love. Obviously, that's that's something
we maybe we don't operate in that as much as
we should, but I think we we kind of understand

(08:27):
the concept. But when you're talking about corporate vulnerability, what.

Speaker 1 (08:33):
Do you what do you mean by that?

Speaker 2 (08:34):
Because I find this really interesting, Like I'm thinking it
over and I'm just I'm thinking through it in my
own mind. But I want you to try to kind
of explain that and bring that to us, like, what
what does it mean and what does it mean to
have those two things working together in a local church.

Speaker 1 (08:47):
Yeah, So, you know what, I think that even going
back to that idea of of unconditional love, and I'll
come back to corporate vulnerability here in a moment, but
that idea of unconditional love is not a universal understanding, right,
I feel like some that's right, there's a lot of
us when we think of love or unconditional love, we

(09:09):
attach things like trust to it. We attach things like
approval to it, We attach things like admiration, and all
of those things can be connected to love, but at
the core, they themselves are not love. Like I can't
unconditionally trust someone. That's not our trust functions, right, I
can't unconditionally have admiration or even approve of someone. And

(09:34):
I think when we don't comb through what those differences are,
then we end up kind of having this warped view
of what love is. So I'd say from a biblical
standpoint that love is desiring and working for the good
of the receiver with no strings attached. That's what it

(09:56):
means to be have unconditional love, Right, I don't have. Right,
I don't have to. I don't have to approve of
what you do to desire and work for your good,
right right, Right, I don't. Right, there's so ultimately, Now,
here's the thing. The closer we are, the more where
our relationship is intimate and the and the more that

(10:18):
we spend time with one another, all the other things
can get attached to it. But here's the thing. I
can have a strict There can be a stranger in
Australia that I am seeking at, I desire good for
and I'm working for their good with no strings attached
because I love them. Right, That's and that's what the
Father does with us. And so I feel like that

(10:39):
has to be a core root definition for us as
believers before we start thinking about corporate vulnerability, because I
because the idea of vulnerability is that I am intentionally
not protecting myself from this environment. Right, So like I am.

(10:59):
You know, I think about like Adam and Eve in
the garden. They're naked, and it's not just about them
not having invented clothes, yet they are fully vulnerable to
their environment, to God and to one another. That's really
what that nakedness is supposed to show us that. Right,

(11:19):
they're not protecting themselves from what's there because they trust
what's there. They believe that's what's there is for their
good and desires good for them. So they don't need
to protect themselves. They don't need to clothe themselves in
that way. And I think when we talk about corporate vulnerability,

(11:39):
we're saying you and I, as brothers in this podcast,
are choosing to come in unprotected. I am choosing to
trust you. I'm choosing you. I mean, I am choosing
to believe that at the end of this you're not
going to edit it and chop up my words in
such a way that it is unreflective of who I am. Right,

(12:03):
that's a vulnerable thing, and you're trusting that. I'm not
going to go on social media and blast and say
two Pentecostals and a microphone is no no, no, da
da Right. So and that's and so ultimately, that's that
place where you and I can experience true authentic fellowship
one with one another as well, but it has to
be on this bedrock of you and I desiring and

(12:25):
working for each other's good. I love that.

Speaker 2 (12:27):
I love that because I hadn't really thought of it
in those terms, but it completely makes sense. And so
it's not just vulnerability between you and God, is vulnerability
between each other, brothers and sisters and the church and
the body as all oh yes, absolutely love it.

Speaker 1 (12:40):
Yeah that's like you know. So so some friends of
mine and I we describe that as like, that's the
horizontal axis of the cross, right, the vertical right, The
vertical axis of the cross is God. My relationship with
the Father is restored through Christ. But also my relationship
with with you is restored Christ as well. And if

(13:01):
it's not, then I haven't actually received all the work.
I haven't received all of it. So yeah, so true,
so true. So I got it. I got it.

Speaker 2 (13:12):
On this next question, I just got to put this
out there. I taught a lesson at my church this
past Wednesday night and the title was and I had
not started reading your book yet, but the title was
Kingdom Culture in a me Society, and and I it
was literally bro started reading your book, I'm like, wow,

(13:33):
we are on the same page.

Speaker 1 (13:34):
So it is.

Speaker 2 (13:36):
It is a difficult thing. I think in our society
in general, it's very difficult to build this because it
is collective. It's it's kind of a kingdom culture is
a collectivist culture, and a lot of other cultures are
more on that page than we are here. It's it's individualist,
it's it's personal freedoms. It's you know, give me liberty
or give me death. And all the things that make

(13:56):
America great are also things that make America very difficult
for a Christian to navigate.

Speaker 1 (14:03):
Brother than horizontal access of they're crossing. Yes, so how
do we do that? How do I mean?

Speaker 2 (14:08):
I'm working through that and in my lesson, I you know,
I had some ideas, but I want to hear your ideas,
like how do we cultivate that? How do we make
that happen in our individualistic society?

Speaker 1 (14:18):
Yeah? So I feel like you opened up such a beautiful,
messy box of worms. I like can of worms, right,
and but even worms have purpose? Right, Like, Yes, that's true,
that's true. So I I think that we would be

(14:42):
kidding ourselves and really just being honestly, We will be
lying to ourselves if we were denying the hyper independence
that we are taught to live with and to encourage
to even praise in our culture in the United States,
Like it's a it's a hallmark of who we are.

(15:02):
We ask our kids what you want to be when
you grow up, and it's because at our core we
believe your self determination is what will actually be the
it's the cap to your own development. Right, So that
all that to just say that, calmbing through that and
kind of like even being able to separate who I

(15:27):
am and my culture as an American is so incredibly
difficult that, honestly, I do believe it requires the Holy
Spirit to show us that thing, right, because we attach
our independence to also moral values too, right, So I
think that we have to acknowledge that, especially those of
us who are making disciples. If we are about teaching

(15:47):
people and leading them into intimacy with price, we have
to acknowledge that first. And that's will show people that
too and allow them to wrestle with that. But I
think at the end goal is the knowledge that this
is my earthly citizenship. This is where the Father has
placed me for bringing his kingdom into reflection where I am,

(16:14):
but this is not my home, Like I am a
citizen of the Kingdom of God first and primarily, And
the driver's license I have may as well just be
a visa, right, It's not. It's not the thing that
dictates to me who I am and my identity as
even a citizen in the earth. I am an ambassador here.

(16:40):
So as an ambassador here, I still carry all the
cultural norms, I still carry the language. I still carry
all of the values and the principles of my home,
and I bring them to this place so that there
can be partnership, connection and relationship between my whole and

(17:04):
this place where I am assigned. I am not so
I'm not supposed to live out of the cultural norms
of the place where I'm in. There's supposed to be
some separation. I'm supposed to understand them, yes, or I
can't contextualize my culture for these people. But if I'm
not thinking like that, I will It'll all will start

(17:24):
interpreting scripture incorrectly, We'll start living this out in very
warped ways, and ultimately we end up reflecting this kingdom
rather than the king that has sent us to this place. Right,
And so I think we have to have that as
a part of how we even disciple each other, particularly

(17:46):
as Americans, with the knowledge that this place is hyper independent.
But the place I am from and the place I'm
going to is hyper collectivist, interdependent? Yes, yes, I read
a book recently is very eye opening. It's called I
don't remember the author, but it's it's called Misreading Scripture
through Western eyes, and it opened my eyes.

Speaker 2 (18:08):
That's what got me thinking about some of these things initially,
was we do misread so many things because we read
our culture into it, and that's not the culture that
it was originally written to. So in context, it's now,
of course we have to apply it in our culture. Right,
we probably shouldn't be interpreting it in our culture. Bruh,
that is an up That is absolutely an understatement. We

(18:30):
definitely should not be. All right, you like, And that's
the that's the nail on the head.

Speaker 1 (18:35):
Right. We have to apply it in our culture, but
we shouldn't be interpreting it through the lens of this culture.
We should be interpreting it through the lens of one
its original context and the guidance of the spirit, which
is never going to guide us toward hyperindependence, because that's
not the spirit. No, that's the right. If the spirit

(18:56):
is interdependent upon the father and the son, then why
would the spirit make you be just dependent upon you?

Speaker 2 (19:02):
And I think we struggle with a heart struggle enough
with the idea that we need God, let alone, the
idea that we need each other. And it's it's tough.
It's a tough thing. It's tough to be American. And
I see this I'm in. So in this next little bit,
I want to talk about something specific to my well,
it's not just specific to my home church and my city.

(19:25):
But I'm sure it's happening other places too. That's why
I want to talk about it. I'm sure are the
people experiencing it. But in our city we've struggled recently
with some obvious racism and mostly against immigrants. It's a
very hot topic. Immigration is a very hot topic all
across America, all across the world right now, but here

(19:48):
in my hometown. I saw it firsthand, which in a
way that I haven't seen it in decades, and it
made me really angry at first, and I left. I
tried to go to city hall meeting and I couldn't
get into the city hall meeting because it was too
there were too many people and they were all in
the parking lot, and some of them were in our

(20:09):
in our city had that we're small town. We're about
twenty five thousand people, probably southern Indiana, and the issue
was a plan for the future of the city that
included an immigrant welcome center, and the idea behind that was,
you know, teaching people how to drive and know that
they have to have car insurance and those types of things,

(20:31):
which I think everybody could agree are things that are good,
you know, learning English. But they were completely against it
because they just didn't want the immigrants here in the
first place. And it became really obvious that it was
an issue of really hatred. So and for some people
it was frustration because there are some issues we're working

(20:51):
through as a city related to that. But public schools
are a little overwhelmed, you know, with students that don't
speak English and things like that. But there was a
lot of hate that came along with it. So I heard,
I heard a truckload The thing that sends out to
me the most out of all the things was a
truckload of guys row By yelling some racial slurs against

(21:15):
against Hispanics and saying, you know, send them all back
to Mexico, you know that kind of stuff. And I
and I have a lot of friends who are Hispanic
and or Haitian, our churches. And then this is the
this is the crux of it. Our churches in the
last year and a half to two years gone from
being basically a monocultural, white Southern Indiana church, yeah for

(21:41):
the last seventy years, to being very much multicultural and
a church for about four hundred we've got. We do
have a Spanish We've had a Spanish service for a
long time, so there's about one hundred in that service usually,
but in our English our main service, English service, we
have interpretation in Spanish and Haitian Creole. Well, we have
about sixty to seventy Haitians. We have several Hispanic members

(22:06):
who are bilingual, you know, probably I would say at
this point, including teenagers and kids, maybe forty in our
brain service. So it's quickly changing, which in the context
of what's happening in our town, that's been interesting inside
and outside our church has been interesting, but it really

(22:28):
hurts me to see what's happening in our city. But
I also understand that I can't necessarily expect the same
thing in our church that I expect out in the city.
I hope for it, I pray for it, but first
of all, in the church we don't have the same
thing in our church that we have in the city.
We don't have the hatred. I don't see that. I

(22:50):
do see people who are very uncomfortable, and I would
say quietly unhappy with the change. How do how do
we navigate this? Because I here's let me let me
say this. I feel like a multicultural church is the

(23:10):
most beautiful expression of the Church, and it requires more
of the spirit, and it requires more understanding of vulnerability
and unconditional love than if we were all the same color, language,
political party, whatever.

Speaker 1 (23:25):
Yeah, absolutely, how do we navigate? How do we navigate this? So? Man?
So first of all, I like love, like hearing the
like where your church is, like where like that being
that body of Christ, reflecting Christ in that way, reflecting

(23:45):
the Church in that way in really an environment that's
hostile towards it, Right, I think that's yes, I think
that's the that's really the best way for us to
think about that. I love it for two reasons. One,
even if it was a hospitable environment, it's reflective of Christ.
But I would say that it is more like us
as Christians to live like Christ in hostile environments to Christ. Right, Right,

(24:09):
So we think about the first the first Believers, and
them representing Christ in Jerusalem, Judaea and Samaria and in
an environment that was entirely hostile towards Christ. Right, So
there's something about how the spirit moves in us when
we kind of rebelliously live as Christ in a place

(24:34):
that does not want him there. So love it for
that reason. Love it, love it, love it. So I'd
say that I also love it because like Revelation chapter
seven talks about this huge mass of humans gathered around
the throne. Right, So after this, right, so after this

(24:57):
one hundred and forty four thousand from the twelve tribes
of Israel, there is this innumerable mass of people gathered
around the throne from every tribe, every nation, every tongue,
and every people. Right, And that is an important little
detail that we have to hold for a second. The

(25:21):
second is when Jesus was walking on the earth, there
were some sadducees that came to him and they started
they went into this long rant trying to get him
into trying to trap them. But they were talking about
this woman who was married to seven men they had
all died, and they're like, right, so in the resurrection,
who will she be married to? Like whose wife will

(25:41):
she be? And Jesus is like, well, in resurrection there
won't be given any no one will be given in marriage.
So right at that point, you're the bride of trust. Right,
So so here's it's like if we hold both of
those and we observed them at the same time, this
idea that my marriage is kind of irrelevant in this

(26:07):
new earth, right, and it's irrelevant in resurrection. As a pastor,
I am called to equip God's people for the work
of ministry until Christ returns. So when he returns, my
job is irrelevant. So my wife is my sister, my
children are my siblings, my job is irrelevant. But I'm

(26:28):
still black. Right that that is true. All these ways
that we relate to ourselves become irrelevant. However, my culture,
my identity, my cultural identity, and my language do not.
Those things have eternal relevance. And so as believers we

(26:50):
have to kind of sit back in question, well, what
is the eternal value of my blackness? God? If my
marriage is only valuable in this age and let this,
let the Spirit do something in us with that, because
that will inform how we treat individuals whom are of
different cultures right now. If I'm supposed to reflect God's

(27:12):
kingdom right now, right I'm a foretaste of what God
will be doing in the New Age, Well, then how
I respond to different languages, different foods, different peoples, different
cultures should be indicative of what it will be then,
not right? Not so? So there's another moment where we

(27:34):
calm through our citizenship here in the United States and
our identity as followers of Christ. The United States needs
to care about immigration. Yes, so United States needs to
care about immigration, and Christians don't need to get in
the way of that, right we need the United States

(27:54):
needs to care about immigration and ultimately though and we
can care about the laws here and living those laws here.
But something that is have always been true of God's people.
If a human beings walks at your doorstep, they're a
human being whom you welcome, whom you love, whom you

(28:16):
care for, and God doesn't give a rip where they
came from. Right even Israel like that was mandated to
be hospitable. We are mandated to be hospitable, and so
it so the United States needs to care about immigration,
and we need to care about hospitality. So that's what

(28:37):
we need to care about. And so when it comes
to even us in our churches, our church should reflect
revelation because that's where our church is going. So the
diversity that exists in my city needs to show up
in my church because that's what's going that We're supposed
to be a foretaste of the coming age. And when

(29:00):
it comes to when I'm experiencing some discomfort about individuals
not coming through the way in which the United States
has established, the United States is supposed to care about
immigration and God's people are supposed to care about hospitality.

Speaker 2 (29:17):
Yes, that's great. I love it and and that's that's
kind of where that's where I'm at. And I used
that Revelation seven there. Yeah, this Wednesday night in my
lesson it was it is And that's what's beautiful about it.
We have people from I don't even know how many
countries now in our local church, and it's a beautiful thing.
I love the fact that, you know, on a after

(29:38):
Sunday night service we'll have a dinner. There may be
maybe hot dogs or chicken nuggets, who knows who depends
on who's making the meal. It may be Haitian food.
You know, I love Haitian food. It may be tacos
or or Tamalay's. Yeah, I love that a little too much.

Speaker 1 (29:55):
So when we were so Unison is an intentionally multi
ethnic congregation, and when we were launching, like one of
the first sermons I talked about was our unity in
our diversity, right and the strength of what it is
to have all of us not integrating into one thing,

(30:17):
but to highlight the strength that God has placed in
our cultures as something that is valuable for our community.
And so we're going to talk about this plate, right, Like,
I don't want to just have like you know, I
want to have colla greens, green bean casserole and on
my plate at the same time. And I want them

(30:39):
to touch each other. Right, Because our community the most
like primarily Black, White, and Hispanic are you know, the
primary ethnic groups in this part of Grand Rapids. But
the beautiful thing is we've got individuals who are Native

(30:59):
American who are part of our church. You've got individuals
who are various Asian cultures that are a part of
our and the and the beauty of even how the
Hispanic population is up here, there's Mexican, Dominican, Puerto Rican
there's people from Chile and Guatemala. It's just this beautiful
mix we get to, like there's now somebody from Nigeria

(31:20):
who's a part of our church family. Like again, it's
just all of that. And we have to have room
for not just all of their cultural norms, because that's
that's that's important, but we have to specifically have room
for how is the Father reflected through their cultural norms
to be on display. That's the point, right, the Father

(31:42):
is reflected in these cultural norms, in these expressions in
a way that is not a part of just mine,
or they would only well, we'd only need one. But
John saw all of us. So that means that there's
something important for us to see now too.

Speaker 2 (31:58):
And I love that you point out that our language,
our culture, are our race or ethnicity, whatever is going
to show up in heaven. And that's important eternally in
some in some way that marriage isn't these things that
we hold so high, which and are important in this
are not so much in the next life. It never

(32:19):
sits right that maybe that's why the concept And I
don't know if you grew up hearing this, but I
grew up hearing this preached I say not just culturally
preached the idea of color blindness. Should all be colorblind,
should just be colorblind. But that doesn't make sense and
it doesn't work nah, and it doesn't help no, So

(32:39):
especially not in the context of the no I.

Speaker 1 (32:40):
Think so ultimately, you know, so outside of side of
full time ministry, I'm also I'm a racial equity coach,
so I work with churches and schools and different things
like that, specifically around this area. And so many whites
in the United States really, and particularly white white Christians

(33:02):
kind of went from this traumatic experience in the nineteen
sixties where they're watching overt racism on the news, right,
physical violence being enacted upon blacks in the South, simply
because they're black, not for any other reason, right, And
it's that has still happened on the news, but the

(33:26):
trauma of that began in the civil rights movement. Well,
to separate themselves from that, it's like, I'm going to
go to the extreme. So if they are harming people
of color, I want to go so far from that
that I don't see color at all. And they're both

(33:46):
unhealthy extremes, They're right, yeah, right, they're both unhealthy extremes.
It's this place in the middle where we can say
God has If God values cultures and values language, values
these ethnicities eternally, then I can value them now here too.
I can see them, and I can be intentional to

(34:08):
see and look for the part of the image of
God that that carries, and I can celebrate that, I
can honor that, I can lift that up as a
banner of something beautiful, as a part of God's design.
Not diminishing my own culture, not diminishing my own race,
not diminishing but saying that I have a sister or

(34:31):
a brother who is of Asian descent, and this is
the way I see God moving in their culture. Right,
That's really what I believe we have to move toward,
particularly here in the US, because we've got a unique
form and brand of racism here that says we can't
pretend that it just wasn't it's not a part of

(34:51):
how we see things. It is a part of how
we see things. We just have to allow that part
to be redeemed. Yes, exactly.

Speaker 2 (35:00):
And I feel like we're still struggling, and at least
in our area with a lot of Christians, or I
guess I would just say, a lot of the white
people in our area Christian are not who won't admit
that racism that you have the ones who are overtly racist,
they're loud and and and they'll they're going to be
that much. I don't know, hopefully, And when those people

(35:21):
show up in the church, it's hard for me to
be patient in them with the same way I am
with other people when God's doing his work, because I
know God can do that work too. But they're also
I think that by and large, the white population here
and maybe in a lot of places just want to
pretend like it's not a problem. And it's it's not

(35:43):
the problem in the same way it was in the
eighteen sixties or the same way it was in the
nineteen sixties. But it's that doesn't mean it's not a problem.

Speaker 1 (35:50):
Right, Yeah, honestly, like I agree, it's it's actually great
that we can acknowledge that it's been some change, right,
there's been, and I think not acknowledging that also is
unhealthy too. Right, Cultures, people, civilizations evolve. We have evolved.
You and I have in this conversation is evidence that

(36:12):
we've evolved, right, So right, so it's it's good to
celebrate that and then also look ahead to what is
it that what's the next step in this evolution of
honoring each other? And that's not something that we like
in the US. We kind of think about We think

(36:34):
more about respect in terms of being able to admire
a person's earned achievements and and there, you know, like that,
and there is a respect that's good. But honoring is
to acknowledge in person's intrinsic value. You are valuable regardless
of what you've done, regardless of what you haven't done.

(36:55):
You are valuable. Just your very presence is valuable in
our community. And so I think, how so this is
a part is moving from just not disrespecting a person's difference,
but moving to how do I intrinsically value that person's difference.
And I think that's where we're moving toward and so right,

(37:17):
and that's what we have to be teaching each other
and teaching our children to be looking forward to, is
that this baton of leading the church and leading in
this world will be passed to you. And I want
you to have honor difference because God honors difference.

Speaker 2 (37:36):
Yes, And that's that's a challenge. And you may have
some insight in this too, like just in the practical
way that we have a servance. For example, in our services,
you know, we have we have any ear or it's
like a cell phone app, and we have interpreters who
are who are interpreting live, but they're using an app
to list on their phone. So we we've managed to

(37:57):
make that work. It's not the ideal, but we do
have times when we have a song in Spanish or
a song in Creole, or our pastor speaks a little Creole,
so he will he'll sprinkle it fluent, but he'll sprinkle
that in and it's and it's a beautiful thing. But
but with musical styles, you know, there's the Haitian members

(38:18):
have a different idea of what the music should be.
Then then the older white congregation who thinks it should
always be Southern gospel, and the younger kids UH teens
who think it should be the latest thing on you
know that they're listening to UH. And then you've got
the you know, people from the islands obviously have this vibe.
People from Latin America a little different. But it's you know,

(38:40):
it's there's so many different ideas. How do you so
it's beautiful when we can make it work. But but
people always have their opinions, and I know we have
to make that subservient to the kingdom culture, But how
do you how do you hold that intention? Because everybody
there's all these different cultures that I think we need
to be able to speak to in their cultural content,

(39:00):
but also they have to have that kingdom call fume
at work how and just practically practically in a service
or in how we minister or speak to people. How
do we make that work? So that's really a question
of systems, right, like yes, and so our systems are
informed by our values. So if we value this, then
our systems should reflect those values.

Speaker 1 (39:23):
So if we value kind of this place of collaborative
cultural expression, right, then what is the system that would
actually allow for that to live. Sometimes there is a leader,
like for let's specifically talk about like you know, praise
and worship or worship arts, right like the music part

(39:43):
of it. Sometimes there is a leader who is both
talented and learned enough to be able to integrate all
these different ways of expressing in praise and in music,
and that becomes the system. That leader is the one
who carries the system and sometimes that's not true. You

(40:04):
don't have a leader who knows how to do that,
So a different system has to be in place, a
team of individuals has to kind of be in place
to do that. And ultimately, I'd say that the biggest
indicator of that value informing the system is that the
individuals that are there, their voices also shape the system. Right.

(40:29):
So if there's Haitian individuals there, if there are individuals
from Mexico or from parts of Latin America that are
there and they're not informing or shaping the system at all,
it will never reflect them. It will never right, It
just can't. It's not possible. So that tension, that fight

(40:50):
will always be there. And so I, so I. But
here's also the truth. Those older congregants, their voices have
to inform the system too, right. So sometimes you end
up with this kind of scenario where on a given Sunday,
there's four songs and they all kind of like they

(41:11):
look like you put all the genres.

Speaker 2 (41:14):
On shuffle, right, And that's fine, right.

Speaker 1 (41:18):
Because here's the thing. If a person values that, they
will stay in the community and say, man, this brings
glory to God and fills my soul. I don't know,
I don't know exact I've never even heard that kind
of music before, but something inside of me comes alive,
and I attribute that liveliness to the spirit of God

(41:39):
moving in our community. Boom, right, it doesn't matter, right,
So that doesn't have to be connected to the last one.
And in some communities you'll they'll like marry all of
the sounds into this kind of like salad of of
workship warts. Right, I'd say, Unison, that's our style is

(42:02):
to kind of put them all together. So like, well, well,
we'll take a you know, old school like a Phil
Wickham or Chris Chris Tomlin song, right that has all
of this rich kind of lyric. Theologically, it'll be rich,
but it's perhaps lacking the emotional depth needed for those

(42:24):
of us who come from Gospel backgrounds. So we'll gospelize that,
and then for those of us who come from Latin backgrounds,
will put in some syncopation into the rhythm that will
allow for all of the like it becomes a unique
This is the sound of our church. This is how
we worship right and right. So that's our system. But

(42:47):
I think ultimately that system is informed by the values
and if the values never make their way to the system,
that tension will always be on display, and ultimately people
will be more than just dissatisfied. They they will not
be satiated by seeing themselves in their community. And that's
the problem we have to solve.

Speaker 2 (43:09):
Yes, and I do think that there's a there's a
tension in our church right now because of this shift.
It's it's shifted I would say overall shifted younger in
the last couple of years, but also shifted, you know, culturally, ethnically,
and in many cases it's not that they're uncomfortable because
someone is a different ethnicity or even speaks a different language.

(43:29):
It's I think there are a lot of especially the
older congregants, to just feel like they're maybe not being
seen or heard in the way that they were before.

Speaker 1 (43:38):
So yeah, and that's that. And listen, you can be
all anything, you can be all black church, and you're
gonna have that right if it's a multi generator like
and I think that's so when people are trying to
make a transition to becoming more multicultural, I tell them,
your church already is multicultural, right if you have individuals

(44:00):
that are from fifteen to eighty five in your congregation
is multicultural already, And so what are you intentionally doing
to bring those cultures to bear in your systems and
in your ways of being together? Because if you can't

(44:22):
do that, you definitely won't be able to do bringing
people of different languages right and different and different like
cultural expressions ethnically and racially, that will have no room
if you can't bring the cultures of even just the
difference in terms of how men and women respond to

(44:43):
God and interact with each other, If you can't bring
that into the forefront, you have no hope for being
able to bring these other ones. So I do think
that that those individuals who are older, they do have
to know that they are valued. But one of the
things that I think is also true for older individuals

(45:05):
is Lord willing. They've also have some maturity to understand.
My relationship with God is secure, and I'm gonna turn
and as soon as I leave this place, I'm gonna
turn on whatever I want to listen to and worship
God in my car. Right, So how do I make
room for these individuals whose relationship with God is still

(45:29):
yet developing and they need to see their self in
their community in a way I don't need to. I
want to, but I don't need to because at the
end of the day, if this church crumbles today, my
faith is still gonna be secure. Right, I ain't gonna
I've been rocking with Jesus a long time and he
I ain't going to nowhere. So it doesn't matter what
y'all do. I'm gonna guess, right, And so there there

(45:51):
is a maturity that we call them to. But and
then also in unleash that maturity because if an older
individual and a congregation knows the wisdom God has given
me and the life experience that the Lord has allowed
me to have is valuable here, they're willing to give
up their songs. But if we do, right, But if
we don't unleash their wisdom and their insight, and we

(46:13):
don't call them to say you are valuable, what you
bring to this community is valuable, well, then they'll they'll
default to, well, then give me my songs. If you
ain't gonna allow me to actually be actively engaged in
this jerks, right.

Speaker 2 (46:25):
And so yeah, So as a leadership, I feel like
we have to actively engage people and set them engaged
because otherwise they will feel that way.

Speaker 1 (46:36):
They're not.

Speaker 2 (46:36):
If they're not deputized and feel like they're part of
the team and they're doing something, then yeah, of course
they're gonna feel left us.

Speaker 1 (46:44):
Yes, so there are there are people who have been
I'm thirty nine, and there are people who have who
are part of our congregation, who have been in intimate
relationship with God longer than I've been breathing. I should
not be the only one make disciples in that context.
They too have something even more than what I need

(47:06):
to learn from them. I have a seventeen year old
son who's about to become a young adult. Y'all have
raised adults. Teach me what it is right. I get
that I'm the pastor, but I need to be sitting
crisscross apple sauce in your living room for you to
tell me how do you successfully fledge a human who

(47:27):
will love Jesus for the rest of their life. You
did it? I need teach me, right. I got a
sexteen year old. I'm in the same boat like we
need it. Yeah, we need it right, so and so
and if and if the elders and our congregations don't
know that that's what we as leaders need and want

(47:47):
the now default to American culture, which is give me
what I want. Right, That's so true, makes sense, It
makes sense. And I think I think we all we
all have our immature moments. Sure we all yes, and
that's what we default to. Yeah, if we don't, if.

Speaker 2 (48:03):
We're not, engagement is so important. Engagement. I've been thinking
about that a lot. So if we are actively engaged
with one another, especially in a church, a multicultural church,
multi generational, multi linguist, lingual, if we're engaged in ministry together,
we're engaged in discipleship together, we're engaged in evangelism together.

(48:25):
We have this common goal, we have this over this
superseding kingdom culture. Then a lot of things kind of
work themselves out, a lot of the tension works itself
out in the long run. Yes, if we're engaged, Yes,
if we're not engaged, those little things are always going to.

Speaker 1 (48:42):
Be So that that reminds me when Jesus is talking
about us abiding in Him and then we'll get bear
much fruit, right, I think many of us are working
really hard to get the fruit, and and and in
many ways we end up with wax fruit, right, We
end up with just something that looks good is not
in any way nutritious, right, But there is a there

(49:05):
is an u. There is an element to us being
in and riff and being with God and and intentionally
investing in our shared relationship with God that many of
these things that we would believe we have to work for.
It doesn't mean there's no work involved, there is. It

(49:26):
just means that we're we don't we know, we're not
on the hook for making the fruit show up. That's
the Father's job, that's the spirit's job, is to bear
these fruits in us from our relationship to the Father
through Christ, right and so. And the interesting thing about
that is, right after Jesus explains that he tells the disciples,

(49:46):
I'm giving you a new commandment, love each other. The
world will know your my disciples based upon how you
loved one another. Right, So it's like like it's what
you just described. Literally Jesus was telling the original disciples
and is right there for us in John chapter thirteen.

Speaker 2 (50:05):
Absolutely absolutely, And I think I think it's a challenge
that that churches can and obviously God intended, right, that is,
that is the message Jesus is giving us. So God
intended that it's so hard. I think for people to
change when they've been a Christian their whole lives and
they have some level of maturity in some ways, but

(50:26):
they've never even.

Speaker 1 (50:27):
Thought about this.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
Yeah, because it was it was not on the radio,
and then all of a sudden it is.

Speaker 1 (50:33):
It's it's tough.

Speaker 2 (50:34):
But I think because they do have some of that
maturity and that they've developed in other ways, and that
they'll come around. But we also have to be patient.

Speaker 1 (50:44):
I guess. Is the other the other side of that coin. Yeah, yeah,
I was. It's funny, like I was a young guy
that I was talking with we have Bible stugl last
night and we ended up getting too this long conversation
in the parking lot afterwards, and we're talking about how
there is so While yes, it is my job to
equip God's people for work of ministry, a part of

(51:06):
that is helping them to mature. And I think one
of the things that we're able to see now, particularly
those of us who are church leaders, that many of
us were not discipled too mature. We were discipled to yes,
value our relationship with God, value the relationship with the church,
and build in these practices of piety. But that is

(51:28):
not in and of itself maturing right, and I think
a part of our role and is honestly even repenting
for leaders in the past to say, hey, we've kept
y'all children right, We've we've made we've we've maintained your
child childish faith, not childlike faith, childish faith. We've maintained

(51:55):
that by not inviting you to maturing. And so when
people say things like, oh, I'm just not being fed
anymore in this congregation, well you're probably not being fed
anymore because you've you've gotten to a point where you're
supposed to be making food for other people, right, You're
you're right what like you're supposed to actually, and the

(52:15):
people like those people who make food for other people
also eat Chefs don't go hungry, all right, they also
eat right, and you're supposed to. So no, if you've
been walking with God for forty years, absolutely there's no
church in this country that's gonna feed you efficiently because
you're supposed to be making food for other people at

(52:37):
this point. But we have kind of systematically taught you
that you're not equipped to do so, right, So in essence,
we right, we treated you like you're supposed to stay
a child, and that's got to end or we will
ultimately or the church will die ultimately. Right because the

(52:59):
case you can't reproduce with individuals who only see themselves
as children. So right, So that means we have to
come away from that and invite our elders, invite people
who are walking with God, like, Hey, this is what
it was supposed to be. And I repent on behalf
of individuals who haven't discipled us to see that. But

(53:23):
let's go where the spirit's going, which involves you being immature,
fledged adult believer that has a dependence upon God like
a child, but a maturity in the spirit that invites
children to grow.

Speaker 2 (53:39):
Yes, one hundred percent. So I've seen it in our
organization specifically, I guess looking back, it seems like a
lot of our history, or at least, you know, the
last thirty years when I've observed it, there was an
emphasis on it seemed like discipleship came down to the
salvation experience and following some rules. Yeah, that's it, But

(54:02):
like you said, there's no there's no spiritual maturity. That's
not fair of every congregation of right righte No, but
it was definitely a problem.

Speaker 1 (54:10):
Right, and and and the fact that, like so, I
keep having regular conversations at least here, and I won't
even just say here, even across the country, I keep
having conversations with church leaders about the consumeristic way in
which the church in the United States functions right now.
And that's not just like us complaining, it's acknowledging, Hey,

(54:31):
there's something here that and what is that? Why are
we all experiencing that people want to come and just
receive in the church rather than also be an active participant. Well,
you can't just blame all of the you know, hundreds
of millions of Christians in the country and say all
of y'all came up with that on your own. There's

(54:53):
something that has happened in the leadership of the church
that we have to acknowledge and all so turn from
We have to say, like, hey, this is the direction
we were going and got it wrong. Spirit humans do that.
It's okay, It's okay to right, we got it wrong.
This is the direction that we need to be going.
And the Spirit is guiding us into this place. That is,

(55:18):
it is beyond us being able to just receive from
one another front from these church leaders but also give
to these young believers.

Speaker 2 (55:28):
Yes, that's what has to happen, or you don't grow,
Like it's the focus on evangelism without discipleship, without that
long term discipleship cycle. Yes, it just doesn't work. It
doesn't work. It's like you said, it creates consumers. You
might have a flow of people there for entertainment, right,

(55:48):
whatever the case is, but there's no no maturity.

Speaker 1 (55:51):
And the moment that you are no longer feeding their
emotional need, they'll go somewhere else, right, yes, yeah, so.

Speaker 2 (56:00):
So so you're in your book Seamless you talk about
I mean, you're talking about the gifts of the spirit
and how those are used, and that's exactly what we're
talking about here. Is is is how do we make
church work when it's messy, and it always is to
some degree, But when you start talking about a multiculture,
intentionally multicultural church, it gets more so and those gifts
of the spirit become more important. I would argue, oh, yeah,

(56:24):
because you've got it. If you don't have the work
of the spirit happening, you can hang it up.

Speaker 1 (56:32):
Yes, And I also say like it probably should be
hung up at that point, right like you you are
you you stand to do more damage than good if
the spirit's not moving in something that has the last
name Church, right. So right, So so i'd say, uh yeah,
I think one of the things that is as a

(56:55):
clear theme throughout the book, but also I think it's
a it's really something that should be a clear theme
in our ministry is that all of us are called
to ministry. Everyone has a role in it. The ministry
of Christ is not converting unbelievers, right, The ministry of
Christ is making disciples and ultimately, long term the redemption

(57:18):
of the earth, and our role in that redemption is
that we make disciples and that we ease the groaning
a little bit of creation by being the sons and
daughters of God. Right Like that's right, So, because that's
what because creation is growing in anticipation of the sons

(57:38):
and daughters of God being revealed, not Jesus coming back.
You and me doing our jobs is what eases the
groaning of the creation. Right So, if that's what we're
here for, if that's what we're supposed to be doing, well,
what is your role, young sister? Right? What is your role,
young brother? What is your role mother? Or what is

(57:59):
your father? In go in making disciples and easing this
grown and some people that is that they are prophets. Great,
what is the Lord saying? Right? A prophet may not
actually be a pastor, and that's okay, But like, what
is the Lord saying to us? And then there's individuals

(58:20):
who are teachers, and that people have wisdom and administration,
and individuals who have healing and speaking in tongues and
interpretation of tongues and all these things are a part
of the continued ministry of Christ in two things, making
disciples and redeeming the earth and right and so that
is so how are we calling people to that and

(58:42):
inviting them to knowing your your gifts are part of
Christ's work in the earth. How are you? How are
you doing it? I don't know, pastor, I'm like, what
you tell me? Like, no, let me tell you what
this is. How I'm gonna tell you. You and I we're
about to go and we're going to seek the Lord together,
and you're gonna listen, and I'm gonna affirm it. If

(59:04):
you come back to me and tell me something that
don't make sense, I almost say let's go back again.
But if you come back and you tell me like, hey,
I feel like the Lord is calling me to this
and everything that I see in you aligns with that.
Oh my gosh, yes, absolutely, how can I How can

(59:24):
I encourage that in you? And what do you need
from me as support so that you can live that
out with joy and with consistency. That's really what we
do at that point, and we walk with them to
do that. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:37):
Right, yeah, that's beautiful, that's perfect, And I think everybody
should should read the book. I'm only about halfway through
it right now, but I'm loving it and I'm going
to try to finish it this wool. But I want
to give away at least like one copy for sure,
maybe a couple of copies.

Speaker 1 (59:53):
Yeah, and I can get you some copies as well too,
So right, like, that's totally fine. I've got some copies
I can send you.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
Could we give away a couple of signed copies?

Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
Yeah? Absolutely?

Speaker 2 (01:00:03):
Okay, cool, that's that's great, all right, we'll do that.
So you know, our listeners love books, so so that's
perfect for those who don't win a free book, where
can they go to find out more to connect with
you to by the Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:18):
So, so the book was published by the Wesleyan Publishing House,
and so just you know, you could honestly just do
us a web search Wesleyan Publishing House and you go
to the website and just look up Seamless, you know,
and you'll there's only one book in their name, Seamless,
So so that'll that'll be easy. But but also Amazon,

(01:00:44):
you know, you would look for Chase Rashad as the
as the author, and uh and so those are probably
probably the most consistent ways for you to have access
to the book. There's an electronic version. And I just
finished the audio book, so it was released last year.

(01:01:04):
And having a full life, married with children and a
great Dane, it was very difficult to record this thing.
So and I like so uh so we just got
the audiobook recorded and so that will be available for
purchase as well for individuals who prefer, you know, doing

(01:01:27):
books that way. Very cool, very cool.

Speaker 2 (01:01:30):
I love a physical book, but I find with my
schedule I do a lot better honestly with the audience.

Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
So yep. Perfect.

Speaker 2 (01:01:38):
So as far as getting in touch with you, I
know you talked about racial equity. Yeah, you consult with
churches and schools, and that's a that's an important thing.
How can somebody you get hold of you in regards
to that if they need a direction right now?

Speaker 1 (01:01:52):
That's a great question. I think probably emails the best way,
you know, So you can email me at the church
Chase at Unison gr dot com, and I can make
sure that you have that too, you know of like
putting it in the h information. Yeah, show notes that
kind of thing. So email is the best way. And
ultimately that that looks like it can look a couple

(01:02:13):
of different ways, and sometimes it's a longer relationship of
coaching for senior leaders, and sometimes it's just an opportunity
to engage with a local leadership team or staff or
school or business or church. But the intent behind that
really is that idea of as Christ has reconciled us

(01:02:33):
with the Father, we are also reconciled with one another.
So how do we live that out authentically? So yeah, beautiful,
I love it. I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:40):
Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Yeah,
it's been great discussing this with you. I'm excited to
release this episode and finish reading the book.

Speaker 1 (01:02:48):
Yeah. Man, honestly I appreciate the invitation. You're really good
at this. You make the conversation easy and flow right.
I was going to say that about for sure. Yeah,
So thank you again, thanks for allowing me to be
a part of it today. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
Thanks for listening to this episode. We hope you enjoyed
our conversation with Chase Rashad. Pastor Chase has a website.
Go to Chase Rashad dot com and check out his
services from his church podcasts, his music, his blog, his
book and his upcoming books will be available there. Anything

(01:03:27):
you need to know about Pastor Chase at Chase Rashad
dot com. Thank you for listening to tupennecostles and a
microphone