Episode 5: Matt McCall

Adam Stanco’s in-depth interview with UMass head coach Matt McCall. They discuss his decision to end his playing career and attend Florida as a student-manager. He shares fascinating stories from his days doing manager grunt work and building relationships with Joakim Noah, Al Horford, and Corey Brewer as they won back-to-back national championships. He reveals the secrets behind Billy Donovan’s success and recounts his difficult decision to leave Donovan’s staff. McCall explains how he earned an NCAA Tournament berth at Chattanooga and tells the remarkable story of becoming the UMass head coach when someone else was given the job just a week earlier.

Find out more at 40YearCoach.com and follow us on Twitter...

Adam Stanco: @naismithlives

40 Year Coach Podcast: @40YearCoach

Matt McCall: @CoachMattMcCall

Sydney Smith: @SydGSmitty

Episode Transcript

(00:15):
Is the fourty Year Coach podcast.I'm Adam Stango. They might be asking,
why are we called the forty yearCoach. Well, that's because legendary
University of Chicago football coach, notbasketball coach, Amos Alonso. Stagg was
once asked after an undefeated season ifit was his best ever. He responded
by saying, I won't know thatfor another twenty years or so. That's

(00:37):
because alongside winning, personal development isequally as important for the complete coach as
a coach, as a teacher,as a leader. Will your impact be
felt for four years or for fortyyears? Now, before we get to
our tremendous guests, wanted to askfor your help and getting the word out
about our podcast. Rate and reviewon iTunes and subscribe. We've got outstanding

(00:57):
guests coming up in the next fewweeks and driving means you won't miss any
of them. If you don't havean iPhone, you can always check us
out on Spreaker. Now into ourguest. UMass head coach Matt McCall is
one of the best young coaches inthe country and has been on an incredible
coaching journey. He started as astudent manager and has only been a head
coach for three years, but hisresume already boasts an NCAA tournament appearance,

(01:22):
Southern Conference Coach of the Year award, and an average of twenty wins per
season. UMass head coach Matt McCall. Welcome to the forty Year Coach Podcast.
I appreciate you having me on,man, I'm looking forward to it.
Well, yeah, I'm excited tohave you out. I want to
start from the beginning. I knowin your early life, your dad was
a linebacker a Florida in the sixties, went on to be a prominent attorney

(01:46):
in Florida. What are some ofyour early memories of playing basketball and starting
to fall in love with the game. You know, it was crazy,
you know, I grew up playingin the Boys and Girls Club, you
know, you basketball, and thesmall count of O'calla, Florida was not
very big at all. So itstarted with the Boys and Gloves Girls Club

(02:07):
and then it went on to theYMCA. And I'll never forget this,
and he's he still a dear friendto me today. There's a guy named
Leroy Sims and we used to practiceoutside on the outdoor courts at Yamina Park,
and I'll never forget the first timeI got dropped off and met Leroy
for practice. He used to haveto call my parents and tell him to

(02:28):
come pick me up because I didn'twant to leave the court, or he'd
have to drive me home and we'dbe out there shooting until the sun would
go down the outdoor lights would comeon, and Leroy kind of got my
journey on basketball started to be honestwith you, and you know that's I
was probably ten eleven years old,and I'll never forget my dad offering to
pay Leroy to come to our houseor meet me in a gym somewhere to

(02:49):
work with me on a daily basis, and he refused, and a friendship
just developed, and LeRoy's going onto help a lot of different kids in
the Ocala area. He went onto coach high school there for a little
while. But Leroy really got myjourney on this old thing started and it
just kind of grew from there toplaying in high school to you know,
going to Stetson straight out out ofhigh school was going to be a preferred

(03:12):
walk on. And when I gotthere, I just I wasn't happy,
and everyone kept telling me, youknow, basketball or college supposed to be
the best four years of your life, and it just didn't feel like the
right fit. And I took abreak from the game for a year.
I enrolled at the University of Florida, and being away from the game,
I missed it so much. AndI sat outside of Jeremy Foley's office,
who was then the athletic director,was able to make a connection through him

(03:37):
with him through coach Spurrier, whoat the time was a was the head
football coach at Florida, who mydad played alongside him in the sixties,
And set outside Jeremy Foley's office andjust waited and said, you know,
mister Foley, I need five minutesof your time. Can you please get
me in with coach Donovan. Andthat's kind of how it started for me
at Florida. I started through Jeremyand I owe a lot to him,

(04:00):
um, from where my career startedand where it's gotten to. Um.
He did an unbelieval job as theathletic director there, and he got me
in with coach Donovan. And Iwas just wanted to be a fly on
the wall. And you know,I was always taught that listen, you
know, no matter what job youhave, you know, whether it's picking
up water bottles, sweeping the floor, no matter what it is, do
it to the best of your abilityand will grow into something bigger. But

(04:23):
that's really what happened to me atFlorida UM. Once I started working for
the team as a manager, Itried to beat all the all the assistant
coaches to the office, make sureI was visible, make sure I was
there too, you know, helpthem and assist them in any way I
could. And I was fortunate enoughto see, you know, some great
coaches as assistant coaches, whether itwas John pelf Pelfrey, Anthony Grant,

(04:45):
Donnie Jones, Larry Shy at roblinEre. You know, I saw all
those guys firsthand what it took tobe a great assistant coach. And for
when that, when that opportunity camefor me, I felt like I was
ready. It's awesome. It's awesome. You rolled through a lot of the
things that I've just about to askyou about. But I am curious to
go to take a step back nowand and talk about that time when when

(05:05):
you talked about being a preferred walkon it at stets and something just didn't
feel right. You know, it'svery rare to me. I mean,
I think the idea that it doesn'tfeel right isn't rare. That happens to
a lot of players during the courseof their career in different situations they're in.
But just in terms of guy decidingthat he's going to follow his heart

(05:28):
and say, you know what,maybe this playing career doesn't doesn't feel right.
How did you really come to gripswith with that decision? And wasn't
simply coaching that you knew you wantedto go into. Well, you know,
I think at that point in mylife, I was I was eighteen
years old. Um, I didn'tknow what I wanted to do. Because

(05:49):
there was part of me that wantedto go into journalism and be a sports
broadcaster. There was uh, youknow, seeing my dad as an attorney.
I never really had to do that, but I was kind of lost.
Uh you know, And I'll tellyou the truth that you know,
you get hit with a really senseof reality. You know, in high
school, you have a you havea good career, you think you're a

(06:10):
really really good player, and hey, I'm gonna go here and I'm gonna
I'm gonna earn my way onto thefloor and I'm gonna work harder than anybody
else. And you get smacked inthe face with the reality and hey man,
you ain't that good. That's thebottom line as a player. You
know, maybe Division two, Divisionthree, NAIA, something like that would
have been a better fit for meat that point in time. But it
was really a reality check for me. And at eighteen years old to get

(06:33):
hit in the face like that,I didn't know what I wanted to do.
I really didn't. I knew Igrew up a Gator. I had
two older sisters that went to theUniversity of Florida. Obviously, my father
went to the University of Florida,had an enormous amount of friends in high
school that were in the Gainesville area, and it was it was, it
was a difficult time for me ateighteen years old. All right, this

(06:54):
this door was kind of closing onyou. You decided to go in a
different direction. What are you gonnado? And and I thought that basketball
was you know, my love forthe game was going to be through a
different route. And whether it wasjournalism or maybe I was going to be
a sports agent, I didn't know. You know, at eighteen, and
I took a step back and wasaway from the game for the first time

(07:15):
in my life since I was probablyeight or nine years old my freshman year
in college, and I was miserable. Um, you know, I tried
to pledge a fraternity at Florida becausethat was kind of what everybody did and
you were either an athlete or youwere part of the Greek family. And
that wasn't the right fit for me. And it took some serious soul search
and you know, at eighteen yearsold to say, hey, okay,

(07:35):
this this door is maybe closed.Let's go a different route here. And
you know, I had heard whatwhat what entails as a student manager,
and you know, the different thingsthan the access to the program and the
doors that it may open, anduh, you know, you hear stories
about Lawrence Frank and guys like that, the kind of went this route.
And there's more and more coaches inour business that you know, I've started

(07:56):
as managers. And I just think, just think with when you get a
job like at at eighteen and nineteenyears old and you have an opportunity to
work for a future Hall of Famecoach and coach Donovan and some great assistant
coaches. It just opens up somany doors for you. And I've seen
a lot of colleagues in my businessthat started the same way that I have.
And you know, I was very, very fortunate to be at the

(08:18):
University of Florida working for coach insuch a great time. So as a
student manager, and you talk aboutsome of the things that you know,
we think about, you know,grabbing the water and you know, sweeping
the floor and being there for theguys, and you know, you develop
a close bond with the team,and we'll get to that at the moment,
but just in terms of the accessto the other coaches and what you

(08:43):
had a chance to learn as astudent manager, how close are you to
Donovan and what are you actually learningon a daily basis at that time?
Well, I think that Listen,when you first get there, you're just
trying to find your way and it'sa very humbling experience. You know,
go from you know, being aplayer to you know, always having the

(09:05):
ball in your hand, to workingon your game to you know player developm
to do those types of things thatdoing a lot of the grunt work.
It's very humbling and that's the firstthing, and you have to be you
know, uh, you got tocheck your ego and get to work.
And if it's washing the clothes,it's washing the clothes. If it's sweeping
the floor, it's sweeping the floor. You know. So you know,
kind of like I alluded to earlier, Um, you know, the access

(09:28):
to coach Donovan when you're first gettingthrough the door as a student manager.
The one thing I'll say is hetreats everyone was such a level of respect,
and the guys that really really servethe program he's obviously going to gravitate
towards. And it took some timeto develop that relationship with him, but
we got to that point, andyou know, it was to the point

(09:48):
where after my first year, thoseguys you know, wanted me to be
the head manager, where I waskind of in charge of all the managers,
all the equipment, all the year. And it got to the point
when you know, I finished myundergraduate degree. I'll never forget you know,
walking into his office with my capand count on wanting to take a
picture with him, and him saying, you know you're staying You're not going

(10:09):
anywhere, you need to stay hereand get your masters and continue to learn
and grow. So I did thatand I got, you know, two
years of doing that, we justwon the first national championship in two thousand
and six. And I had developeda really really close bond with Anthony Grant
and Anthony was named the head coachat VCU right after our first national championship

(10:31):
in oh six and called me andwanted me to come as a director of
basketball operations. And I was excited. I was elated. I was going,
I was moving to Richmond. LikeI said, me and Anthony are
extremely close. And five minutes later, coach Domond picked up the phone,
and you know, I'm thinking that, I'm I'm you know, he's calling
just a sake and grass and hecalled to you know, basically create a

(10:52):
position for me at the University ofFlorida, for me to stay. So,
you know, I think just asas I grew, the more visible
I was to coach, the moreresponsibilities he gave me some more our relationship
group, and I think ultimately,after three years at Florida Atlantic, he
felt extremely comfortable about hiring me backas an assistant coach. How how do

(11:16):
you manage? You know? Isometimes ask coaches, and I'll probably end
up asking you about how you gofrom an assistant coach to a head coach
and all the changes that entails.But when you're a student manager, your
relationship with the players is on sucha different level. And when you start
to become you know, part ofthe coaching staff and adobo and and all

(11:39):
those things. Um, we havea mutual friend in Matt Walsh. From
when I told him that I wasgoing to be talking to you, he
told me he told me some storiesabout about late nights at the Odome,
you know, three am diving offthe hide. But but I was never
that. I was never diving offthe hide. I was I was a

(12:01):
designated driver that would make sure everyonewas getting back to their dorm safe.
So I was always I was alwaysthere for those guys to make sure that
no one got in trouble and everyonewas just back to their dorm room safely.
But yeah, I'm sure he sharedsome interesting stories with you, no
question. Yeah yeah, And andthey don't need to be revealed today.
But what I am curious about howyou manage, how you manage that those

(12:24):
relationships, how that changes then whenyou you know, start to evolve and
become part of the staff. Youknow in any workplace. Yeah, you
known, a becomes a full timeemployee and they're sometimes still look at as
the intern. How how do youchange your mentality? Then? Well,
I think you know, there wasa lot of transition there when I was

(12:46):
at Florida too. Um. Youknow, when I started working, you,
Donna Fazlum was a senior. BrettNelson and Matt Bonner were juniors.
You know, Matt Walsh and thoseguys weren't in the program yet. Anthony
Roberson, you know, David Leewas a freshman. So you know,
I think is as I grew andI evolved, you know, as from
a manager to a GA to tothen an ops guy. You know,

(13:07):
the personnel changed as players too.Um. You know, I was roommates
with Brett Nelson. Um, I'mforget map honor. After he got drafted,
came back and lived with us andslept on our couch. You know
for every months, It's like Bonner, didn't you just get drafted? Can't
you afford to not sleep on thecouch. But you know, I think
that it just kind of evolved,and obviously players move on and graduate.

(13:31):
Um, so there wasn't really muchof a transition I had to go through
there. I think that, youknow, I always made sure that,
you know, my my academics andmy work were the two most important things,
you know, from a social aspect, Hanging out building trust with those
guys, you know, I thinkwas big at one point, and then
you kind of move on. Andthen when you know, Noah and Horford

(13:52):
and Brewer and Torry Green and thoseguys came in the program as freshman,
you know, I was already startingto transition into being a GA and an
OPS guy. I, um,you know, after that first year and
uh, you know, there's justa level of maturity that you go through.
Um, and you know, understandingthat hey listen, you know these
guys are gonna be out, They'regonna be here. They've be hanging out
here, they've be hanging out there. Um, you know, you're not

(14:13):
supposed don't make sure we're not frattnizing with the players when when you're you
know, now a part of thestaff. Uh. And I think that
was just that was an easy transitionfor me because for me, it was
you know, school and and andwork were the two most important things.
And um, you know, thatwasn't a difficult one at all, but
you know, the personnel obviously changedas well. You went from you know,
rooming and living with the players too. Now you're into a professional role.

(14:37):
You're you know, pretty much livingon your own right right now.
All right, So you talk aboutthat class that that's referred to as THEO
for Al Horford, Mary Brewer,Joe Kim, Noah Tory, and green
Um. As far as what yousaw from those teams and being a part
of such a rare thing, youknow, back to back national champ ships

(15:00):
and the success that you had atFlorida at that time, which really elevated
Billy Donovan from one of the greatcoaches in college basketball to an all timer.
The short list of guys who hadthe success that he did, especially
during that time is, you know, it's pretty rare. What are some
of your favorite memories from from thattime in coaching that group? You know

(15:22):
what I think too, I thinkthat those guys really started to evolve,
and I think that Matt Walsh,David Lee, and Anthony Robertson, I
think they had a huge part inthat. They may have not been there
for the national championship in six,but the development of Al Horford and Joe
Kim Noah, who neither one weretop one hundred players. Corey Brewer was

(15:43):
the only McDonald's All American. Thecompetitiveness, you know, even in oh
five when we were fortunate enough towin the SEC Tournament Championship justin practice was
through the roof. I remember,you know, Walsh and Corey Brewer going
at it. I mean, thosetwo are the two of the more competitive
guys that I've been around, andthey really helped Corey's development. But you

(16:07):
know, you just saw something inthat class as freshman. You know,
we would get back off road tripsand I'll never forget, you know.
I would get in my car andCoach Donovan one night was still in the
office late and it was a gamethat Joe Kim hadn't played. And I'm
driving home and I'm driving past thetrack and I see Joe Kim out there
on the track at two thirty inthe morning running laps. So I go

(16:30):
back to the office to tell coachwhat's going on, and he tries to
get me to go talk to him, and Joe Kim says, no,
I gotta get better. And thenthe next thing. You know, Al
Horford, Corey Brewer and his roommatesare out there with him, you know,
encouraging him. And there was justa special bond that was created through
those guys. I mean it's nosecret that that's why they were able to
do what they did. You know, didn't care who got the credit,

(16:53):
wanted wanted to just win them werethere for each other. But you know,
I think their development their freshman yearwas huge. I mean the jump
that Joe Kim made from not playingat all to potentially being the number one
picking the draft has a lot todo with the fact that he battled against
David Lee and those guys every singleday in practice and he got better.
So but this, you know,it was such a special group, such

(17:15):
a rare group of individuals. Eachyou know, has their their unique just
ability to impact each other. Andyou know still to this day, you
know, I can pick up thephone and call any of those guys and
ask for help if we needed it. And um, you know, it
was a special time at the Universityof Florida. And I know Villanova came
close, you know, the lastthree years, but to do it back

(17:37):
to back, man is so rareand you know, Just, I was
blessed and fortunate to be there forthat two thousand and six you reached the
Final four. What's your first memoryof the Final four experience? Oh?
Man, you know, there's somany of them. I remember, you

(17:59):
know, getting there and them havingthe salute dinner, and you know,
the teams, all the teams atthe dinner, and I remember our guys
were just chomping at the bit toget out on the floor. But you
know, there's just so much fanfare. There's everywhere you go. People are
banging on your buses and screaming atyou, and it's hard to even walk
through the line of the hotel.But it was just such a surreal experience.

(18:22):
And to do it back to backand all of a sudden you're sitting
there going, wow, will Iever be in this position again? You
know? And just I mean evenfrom winning it, to coming back to
campus, to the pandemonium, Imean, it's just it's it's it's a
memory you'll have for the rest ofyour life. I mean, sitting here
in my office and amust right now, I still have, you know,
newspaper clippings and pictures of those twoyears. You know, hanging in my

(18:45):
office. You talk about the backto back that the interesting part to that
for me is always you come offa national championship, then you've got the
summer as guys continue to work andget better and obviously return eLearning core which
you don't you don't see as mucheven though it's only been a decade,
but still the games has changed somuch in the last ten years. A

(19:08):
tricky situation. But like you talkabout, I mean Corey Brewer being the
only McDonald's all Americans, so thetalent level was thought out differently, I
guess it at the time when youcome back, you know seven what kinds
of things did you learn from Donovanand the rest of the staff, just
in terms of trying to gear upand do this thing again because it was

(19:29):
so rare, you know, itwas interesting. I'll never forget, you
know, when Matt Walsh and AnthonyRobson both decided to go pro. I
was actually out on the golf coursewith Coach Donovan and we were playing golf,
and I guess I would have beenentering my second year as a graduate
assistant coach and coach donomand doesn't playmuch golf. He just likes to get
out there and talk trash, sohe's not very good by any means,

(19:52):
but he just likes to He's competitive, so he wants to win. And
I'll never forget. I forget exactlythe name of the player, and if
I if I said his name,probably be spoken. But I just I'll
never forget finding out that those guyswere going pro and him keeping talking to
me out on the golf course.Man, we've got to find a way
to manufacture points next year, youknow, how are we going to score
losing these weapons? And coach Downhamas an offensive minded coach, no question

(20:15):
about it. It's part of thereason he's up in the NBA right now.
But I just I'll never forget thatconversation on the golf course out there,
him just talking to me about manufacturingpoints on offense and making sure that
our team is the most unselfish teamin the country. And that's exactly what
happened. You know, in thefirst year. People don't realize though we
got off to a great start.I think we started off seventeen and oz

(20:37):
and we lost six league games.That's when the league was sixteen games.
We were ten and six in theleague. We did not win the SEC
regular season championship. We were tenand six in the league. We were
either a three or four seed inthe SEC tournament. We were able to
win the SEC Tournament and went ona run there. And now you have
everyone back and you know, hereyou have Joe Him Noah, this superstar

(21:00):
who would have been the number onepick in the draft, you know,
back on campus and he was dealingwith a lot you know, I think
Al Horford and Cory both would havebeen first round picks. Al probably somewhere
in the lottery, Corry somewhere rightthereafter. But you had Joe Kim,
who was, you know, goingto be the number one pick in the
draft. Now he's back on campus. I mean, the two most popular
guys on campus at this point intime or Tim Tebow and Joe Kim Noah,

(21:22):
and at that point in time,Joe Kim was probably even a little
more popular, and just there wasan enormous amount of talk just about Hey,
listen, we're back at the bottomof the mountain right now, and
as what we did last we're notdefending anything. We're chasing another one,
and we've got to stay focused ongetting better every single day, and there
was there was an enormous amount ofadversity that went on. We went out

(21:45):
to Las Vegas, we lost toKansas and overtime. Early in the year,
we went on the road to FloridaState, got pounded up there,
and then we lost three straight inthe league to Tennessee Vanderbilt. And there
was another in there in that stretchas well as Tennessee and Vanderbilt with two
of him that I remember off thetop of my head. And we were
not playing very good basketball, andum, you know, we we we

(22:08):
went through some adversity, and JoeKim especially just dealing with the pressures of
trying to perform and coach downavand dida great job with just continuing to talk
to him about getting his joy backand his love for the game which would
help our team, and um,you know, but it was it was
one of the hardest things to dowith. I think, you know,
in sports are expectations. That's whyI have so much respect for, you

(22:32):
know, the Patriots and teams thatare able to repeat and what Villanova has
done in the last couple of years, because that's that's a hard thing to
deal with. And we win thesecond National Championship when we're walking into the
hotel and we're going upstairs to themeeting room, and I'll never forget he
huddled those four guys up and said, all right, guys, how about
one more And the look of exhaustionjust on their four faces, I'll never
forget. And but it was,you know, it's it is one of

(22:56):
the hardest things that when you havea target that big on your back to
deal with it and stay focused inthe distractions and the people around you.
It's a challenge and coach Donham didan unbelieable job managing that group. But
one of the other challenges for ahead coach is that you have that much
success, it's not just the playersthen who are going to look to leave
and better their careers, but alsothe assistant coaches and the staff becomes,

(23:22):
you know, so in demand becausepeople realize that it's not a one man
show, and you talk about,you know, all the success that Donovan's
assistants have had and the remarkable factthat he's been able to bring head coaches
in his assistance. But at thattime that you know you have the staff
is in demand and you are partof that obviously in two thousand and eight,
you know, Florida Atlantic comes callingand Mike Jarvis, Mike Jarvis wants

(23:48):
to bring you on staff. Howdid everything go down between you and Donovan
when you have the conversation with himabout a coach. I think it's time
for me to leave. Yeah,you know it was. It was a
very challenging conversation for me. Um, you know, because I Billy had
created a position for me. Therewas so much going on in his life

(24:11):
at that point in time. Iwas kind of his guy. When he
would go and travel and speak,I would go and travel with him.
Um, I would, you know, introduce him at different places. Wherever
Billy went, I went, exceptin recruiting, and um, you know,
it was the basketball piece of it, the responsibilities I would get from
a basketball standpoint, because there's somuch manpower at the University of Florida.

(24:34):
I just felt like, you know, I'd kind of maxed out there and
it was it was time for meto make a move. And you know,
I walked straight into his office.I said to him, as a
coach, I'm forever indebted to you. I'm forever grateful for everything that you've
done for me, but it's timefor me to coach. And I want
to be on the floor teaching.I want to be on the road recruiting.

(24:56):
I want to be out there gettingmy feet wet. And you know,
there was a couple of phone callballs that he made right off the
bat of guys that he knew hehad assistant job opening. And I don't
know if any of those guys wereever going to be serious about how you
know, as a head coach man, it's when you're hiring a staff,
it's it's something that's challenging, andyou got to make sure there's guys around
you that had experience. And youknow, I think that the situation Mike

(25:17):
Jarvis walked into at Florida Atlantic,he was obviously gonna hire his son,
and then he wanted some young gogetters to get in there that he could
get and get after it. Andum, you know, coach hounded Mike
Jarvis. Larry Shy had hounded MikeJarvis to answer the phone. And when
he did, I drove down onmy Chevy Trailblazer to Boca Ratone and you
know, took a pay cut toeven go down there. As an assistant

(25:38):
coach but I was I was excited, I was ready, and um,
you know, I coached on himand blessed it. And in fact,
he was constantly checking in on Imean, whether i'd see him on the
road or through a phone call,you know. And and there were some
there were some difficult conversations I hadwith him while I was down at Florida
Atlantic, because you know, fromfinancial strand point, I was trying to

(25:59):
figure it out, how are yougoing to live in the most expensive area
in bok of a town. AndI had some opportunities to leave and to
go back as as an OPS person. And it would, you know,
from a financial standpoint, would havemade a lot of sense at twenty seven,
twenty eight years old to do that. But I'll never forget, you
know, the phone call coming infrom him about you need to sit down,

(26:21):
you need to continue to get backto work, and I will hire
you. And he was a manof his word. You know. Three
years he loses three assistant coaches,He loses Richard Pettino, Rob Lanier and
Larry shot all in the same year. And he hired me back. And
that meant a lot to me.Just you know, he was he was
always honest. He was upfront withme and you know, hey, you
need to continue to get to work. And that's what I did and again,

(26:45):
and I wouldn't be where I'm attoday without him. Absolutely absolutely.
During your time though at Florida Atlanticand Mike Jarvis is the head coach,
I mean had tremendous success when youthink about his time at gw and and
Saint John's and in high school coachingPatrick Ewey at Cambridgeorge and Latin. You

(27:07):
get there first year, you guysare six and twenty six, I think
you don't win a game on theroad. Incredibly difficult, which is remarkable
in two thousand and eight, twothousand and nine, considering the success you
had just come off of as oneof the as the premier not one of
the premiere, as the premiere programin the country at that time. First
of all, how difficult was itat that time? And secondly, what

(27:30):
types of things were you learning fromMike Jarvis despite the struggles and listen man
that there was one point where welost nineteen games in a row, And
I was thinking to myself two yearsago, I was watching the streamers come
down as part of one of thegreatest college basketball teams of all time,
and there was a lot of whatam I doing? Um, you know,

(27:52):
nineteen games in a row with alot of games to lose, and
it was it was extremely challenging.I thought that coach Jarvis did a tremendous
job just continuing to stick with itand kind of pound the rock. And
um, you know, we hada terrific signing class coming in the following
year with you know, some goodpieces that we had brought in the first

(28:15):
year. So um, you know, I think, you know, one
of the things is coaches is doingit so long, it's so much success
at so many different places, um, you know, and just just really
stuck with it. But it wasa challenge, no question about it too.
You know, lose nineteen games ina row was a lot and uh
but there was a level of excitementbeing created around our program there and we

(28:38):
were able to win a thirteen orfourteen the following year and then the most
wins in school history that the nextyear. So but there's no question,
you know, there was some serioussoul searching going on, you know during
that nineteen game losing streak. Absolutelyespecially is it what it could pull into

(29:00):
public and there's valet parking when youknow, you talk about that, those
recruits, and one of them isuh Greg Gant, who enters the school
in two thousand and nine at bigtime guard and really as you as you
talk about, you know, changethe course of the program um strictly in

(29:22):
terms of the recruiting and not necessarilyjust great, great Gant. But at
that time, you know, youtalk about you had gone everywhere with Billy
Donovan, but you didn't go onthe road recruiting with him. You were
around a lot of guys that obviouslywere excellent recruiters and had a ton of
experience with it. But for youpersonally, you know, I'd imagined the

(29:44):
first time you're walking into some people'sliving rooms and are you know, hosting
them and those kinds of things.What what did you know about recruiting at
the time, and you know,what was your what was your goal ultimately
and in terms of trying to messagewhere you're trying to get across, you
know what? And again, Iwas fortunate to be at Florida during a

(30:07):
great time and with some great coacheswhere you would sit in and listen to
recruiting phone calls and listen to whatthey were saying. Always around unofficial visits
to see the landscape, to seethe conversations, the dinners, the you
know, the film, the differentthings that you're gonna have to do on
visits. So I you know,you know, I felt like I was
prepared. And the other piece ofit, you know, when I was

(30:30):
at Florida and during the back toback national championship years, we would run
a team camp where we would haveone hundred and five to one hundred and
ten high school teams, so youwould get to interact with these high school
coaches on a daily basis down theircamp and really developed some relationships through that,
and one of them was with GregGantz, coach at Gainesville High School.
And I had really seen Greg,you know, since he was in

(30:52):
ninth grade and able to see justhis development as a player. Knew how
good he was. I knew howgood he was going to be. He's
just as an elite shooter slash scorer. But you know, those relationships being
able to be build through camp werehuge, and at that point in time,
especially in the state of Florida,you know, team camp was so
big and every school was doing themand they're still doing them to a certain

(31:14):
extent, but it was it wasso big. And you know when I
first got there, when you hadthe Miami Highs and the Miami Seniors and
Frank Martin and all these guys bringingtheir teams to team camp. You know,
Mark Lieberman was at mon Senior Pace, and you know Shaky Rodriguez was
at a couple of different schools andalways bringing his teams. So they was
able to develop relationships, especially witha lot of coaches in the state of

(31:36):
Florida that you know when I becamean assistant coach and down there in Florida
really helped me with my development.But that was huge. And going back
to those relationships and being able tocall people and starting to work the phones
was big for me. So youhave the success then because of all the
recruiting success, because like you talkedabout, like Jarvis's attitude year three,

(32:00):
you you alluded to you in twentyone games, you're thirteen and three in
the Sunbelt, you beat Mississippi Stateand YEARN and N. I t birth
at what point during your run atFlorida Atlantic, are you thinking, Okay,
it's time for me to take thenext step. You know it really
for me, it was kind ofa gut check after my second year down

(32:21):
there, when I had an opportunityto leave, and financially it made a
lot of sense. And the conversationI had with Coach Donovan was you know,
very stern, and it was agut check for me and saying,
hey, listen, this is aprocess. If this is the career path
that you're going to take, yougot to continue to stick with it and
everything's going to work out as longas you continue to work hard and grow

(32:43):
and develop. Well, did Ifeel like I was ready to be back
at Florida after three years at FloridaAtlantic, You know, yes, But
at the same time, you know, it had to. There was just
a process that I had to gothrough, and I you know, it
was it was the right time.I mean, he lost three assistant coaches
and he was looking for some stability, and you know, I was not
going to be a guy if Iwas going to be at Florida as an
assistant coach. The only way Iwas leaving was going to be as a

(33:06):
head coach. And just because ofour relationship and you know the amount of
work that I had done for coachover the seven years that I was there
previously. I think he felt comfortableabout bringing me back, and you know,
I had gotten the experience that Ineeded. And you know, Coach
Jarvis, I gave him a lotof credit. He gave me a tremendous
amount of freedom when it came todoing my job, whether it was in
recruiting or scouting or player development.Never felt like he told me how to

(33:30):
do my job. He gave mea lot of freedom, and I felt
like that really really prepared me tobe back at Florida as well. So
you returned to Florida and once againyou have success. It's crazy. I
don't know if Billy Donovant's given youthe proper credit. There's there's twice at
Florida that they've been the the numberone overall seed in the NCAA tournament,

(33:50):
and you were a part of bothof them, two thousand and seven and
two fourteen. So I think asmuch credit goes for Billy donover, we
gotta look now, look at lookat Matt McCall and what he's done with
the thing the number one overall seeds. But but I am curious though about
about two thousand and fourteen year Imean, you guys did the number one

(34:12):
overall seed. Um, how didhow did that year feel differently or maybe
similar to what you had experienced back, you know, seven eight years prior.
Well, I mean there were somethere was obviously some similarities, um,
but there was a lot of differencesas well. I mean, after
we had lost the Yukon in December, we went on a run where we

(34:34):
won you know whatever, it wasthirty games in a row, when eighteen
and O in the SEC, youknow, three and oz in the SEC
tournament. So we were twenty oneand oz in the SEC that year,
which is we didn't do that intwo thousand and seven. We had run
into some real adversity throughout the courseof the SEC year, which I think
really helped us in the NC doubaA tournament too, to get our edge

(34:55):
back, to get our focus back, to be able to you know,
go on the run that we didand went back to back national championships.
But you know, um, inin twenty fourteen, I don't want to
say it was a side relief,you know when we made it to the
final four, because you know,we had lost you know, in three
straight Elite eights won to Butler mylast year at Florida Atlantic. In the

(35:16):
following year, we lost to Louisvillekind of a heartbreaker. We were leading
the whole game, uh and theywere able to make a bunch of threes
in the second half. It reallymade us had to look at some things
defensively and make some changes for thefollowing year. And then Trey Burke and
Nick Stausis were just way too goodagainst Michigan the next year. And then
we played Dayton to go to theFinal four in twenty fourteen, So there

(35:38):
was almost a sense of relief byentire Gator Nation. All Right, they
made it, and then we justran into a buzz saw in Yukon with
Shabaz Napier in boat right. Butyou know, the similarities were definitely the
more we won, you know,in two fourteen, the bigger the target
became on our back, especially throughoutthe league season and even in the SEC

(36:00):
Tournament. I mean we played Tennessee, Missouri, you know, with Jordan
Clarkson in the SEC Tournament, andthen obviously Kentucky with Julius Randall and the
Harrison twins. But you know,so that the target became bigger, is
the more we won the longer thestreak became. I remember we had a
battle against Albany in the first roundthe inc Double, a tournament of battle.

(36:21):
But you know, those were thetypes of similarities. But you know,
just a different team that was tryingto you know, burst through and
make it to a final four versusteam that was trying to repeat his national
champions. In that two thousand andfourteen year, you had Michael Frasier who
was just an unbelievable shooter, justoutstanding shooter. And I know you mentioned

(36:43):
him as being one of the alltime best shooters You've been around, and
you've been around some truly great ones. I mean we talked about, you
know, Matt Walsh and Anthony Roversonand the like, all the great Breton
Hills and all the great shooters thatFlorida has had, but the Wantippians and
Carl Pierre too, you, Mett, and Oh, we're gonna get to
them. We're gonna get to makesure in there too, Yes, for

(37:05):
sure, for sure. And umbut I had read an interesting story when
I was when I was researching forthe podcast, and it was that in
February that twenty and fourteen year Frasier'splaying with an injured wrist, and uh,
and he goes to an early morningshoot around, Um, goes get

(37:27):
some extra shots up. Wrist isbothering him and he really shoots poorly.
He's so frustrated coaches order him toshut it down for the night. Sentiment
of the locker room teammates are consolinghim. Frazier says, hey, he
might hurt his team the next daybecause you guys are playing old miss and
Marshall Henderson and people might remember thesensational gunner that he was and uh and

(37:50):
and Donovan has sympathy for him andsays that he needs to be challenged to
find his confidence whatever means necessary beforetip off. And it's fourteen hours later.
And the interesting part of the storyto me was that it then goes
on that Frazier with you and twomanagers are back at the arena at six
thirty the next morning, he makesand two hundred and eighty three's and he

(38:15):
shoots at eighty three percent accuracy.And the interesting thing to me about about
that story was and it basically,you know, probably changed the trajectory of
his season and how well he shot, or at least That's that's how the
story goes. But what was interestingto me is that's what being an assistant
coach, even at a high major, is all about. I think we

(38:36):
think sometimes about the glory, butwhen I saw your name as being there
at six thirty in the morning withtwo two managers, and I was just
wondering if you could elaborate on whatit really is like to be an assistant
coach when guys are struggling, whenthey need to put the extra work in.
Not the glories sometimes the banners,the streamers, but those moments that

(39:00):
really make up what it's like tobe an assistant coach in college basketball.
I just think that's your job,you know, as an assistant coach,
especially with your players. You know, as a head coach, you know,
the head coach is going to bethe guy that you know his voice
is loudest in practice. You knowthere's gonna be days where you know I
was a player, you probably feellike maybe you're even getting picked on,

(39:21):
or you know, different things likethat. And then as an assistant you
really got to be there to alwaysbuild those guys up and pick them up,
hug on them, love on them, and make sure they understand.
And you know, I had kindof forgotten that story about Michael, but
you know I remember the conversation havingwith them too, just talking about like,
listen, man, you've made thousandsupon thousands upon thousands of shots in

(39:42):
your life. You deserve the rightto shoot the ball well because of how
hard you work. Just go outand cut it loose. Stop hoping it
goes in. Just shoot the ballwith the best rep you possibly can shoot,
and I guarantee you they're going togo in more often than not.
But you just got to be therefor those guys. You know, there's
they're they're going through an enormous amountfrom the adversity they're going through in practice

(40:04):
to the adversity they're going through ingames. And you know, your job
as an assistant is one to keepthings off the head coaches plate uh and
two. Make sure that you know, from a mental standpoint, you're doing
everything you can to build confidence inthe players so they can go out and
perform to their best of ability.And not that it's not the head coach's
job to do that as well,but as an assistant, you've got to

(40:24):
make sure you're doing that. Andyou know, even after that Saturday,
I believe it was a noon tiltin Oxford and every noon game after that.
I think I was up at sixam with Fraser in the gym.
Again, during your your experience withwith coach Donovan, the rest of that

(40:45):
that staff at Florida we see asas fans and observers and members of the
media to follow, um, youknow what Donovan created there and sort of
the style and his individual stamp onon the game. How is that created
in practice on a daily basis interms of the pace of play and the

(41:06):
style of play that Florida ran with. Well, I think the first thing
that he always talks to the teamabout is is his job to create as
much adversity in practice as possible,whether it's through a drill, whether it's
through his voice, whether it's throughyou know, just the competitive nature of
practice. But you know, everythingis very very high intense. Everything is

(41:28):
fast paced, a lot of fiveon five reps. You know, if
there's any drills or breakdown work,it's really gonna be on a non contact
day, or it's really gonna beyou know, on a in the beginning
of practice, almost to get warmedup. But he wants you know,
we play out of concepts. Hewants our guys to know how to play

(41:50):
based on how the floor looks andhow the floor moves. So there's an
enormous amount of five on five work, but a lot of reps and a
lot of reps getting up and down, getting up and down the floor,
so you know the game is movingbecause that's how the game is going to
be played. You know, Ithink when you're constantly trying to break things
down, which is an important pieceof it, Uh, you guys don't
learn how to play. And uh, you know that's that was really something

(42:14):
that he harped on a lot.Two thousand and fifteen, it's time for
you to move on and take yourfirst head coaching job. What do you
remember about being offered a head coachingjob and ultimately accepting. You know,
there was a lot going on thatthat. That two thy fifteen year for

(42:35):
us was a struggle at Florida.We didn't have a great year. We
were an extremely young team. Umyou know, with guys that had played
roles on a Final four team thatwere you know now all of a sudden
thrust into uh, you know,much much bigger roles. Um. So
it was a It was a yearthat um, you know, that was

(42:58):
was filled with an enormous amount ofadversity. Man, I can't believe the
amount of close games that we lost, especially earlier in the year. Down
in the Battle of Atlantis. Welose at the buzzer to Georgetown. We
lose at the buzzer to Yukon,We lose at the buzzer to Miami.
There was just I mean, youname it. There was closet. We

(43:19):
lose at the buzzer to Florida State. It was close lost after close loss
after close loss with a very veryyoung team with you know, two significant
players sitting out on transfers. Sowe knew there was gonna be some growing
pains. But you know, watchingCoach Donovan that year as a head coach
navigate through a difficult year was somethingI needed to see, um, you

(43:39):
know, as as an assistant coachat that point in time, to really
help prepare me to be a headcoach. I needed to see some of
those adversities and see what we weregoing through because you know, the three
years prior to me being an assistantcoach there we were in the Elite eight
every year or the Final four.So that was important for me to see
that in that year. And obviouslyhe took the thunder job after that year,

(44:01):
after I had gotten the Chattanooga job, and you know, I think
that you know, he was ourroster and our team was built to take
a huge jump in the following year. But you know, I had had
opportunities where I had had interviews,I had interviewed in person for jobs,
I had interviewed over the phone forjobs, and I was just something that
was very attractive, not just tome, but to coach Donovan about Chattanooga.

(44:25):
I think that he knew and understoodthat they were they were built to
win. They had a good rosterand a good team coming back at a
place that when he was at Marshall, they really cared about basketball, and
the town cares about it. Theywere in the same league with Marshall and
he was there. It was abig rivalry. He felt great about the
athletic director, David Blackburn. Hefelt right about the whole situation for me,

(44:47):
and he took the job. Actually, when the phone call came in,
we were at breakfast with the recruitwho just won a national championship at
Villanova and we were at breakfast,and I'll never forget the phone call came
in. I told coach Donovan,it was David Blackburn, the athletic director.
He picked up the phone and walkedout of breakfast and he took the

(45:08):
job for me. So, um, you know, right right when it
happened, you're you're, you're obviouslyextremely excited. The world starts to spend
a little bit. Um. Youknow, you gotta tell your wife and
who's pregnant at the time, thathey, we're getting ready to move to
a place that neither one of ushad ever really been or spend any time
at. Um, you know,and it was there was, there was

(45:30):
a lot going on, but itwas it was exciting. Your your dream
of being a Division one head coachhas come true. Um, And you
know, here we go. Andthe next thing I knew, I was
on a plane to Chattanooga and therewas no looking back. That's awesome.
That's awesome. Um, I'm gladyour wife agreed to go along for the
ride. So that's a start.Your first season at Chattanooga remarkable, I

(45:57):
mean, by by any measure ofsuccess. You beat Georgia, Illinois and
Dayton in non conference play, whichis just incredible. You finished the season
twenty nine and six, and whenthe Southern Conference, did you know you
guys are going to be this good? You know what? I thought that
they were. I thought when wegot there, you know a couple of

(46:19):
things. You know, I thoughtthat they were extremely competitive bunch and a
team that had been through a lot, you know, from not just Will
leaving, but there was players onthat roster that were recruited and coached by
John Schulman, the coach before WillWade. So you know, how was
the third guy coming through the door, And how am I going to get

(46:40):
these guys to buy him? Becauseyou know this is this is their third
head coach. But I could seehow competitive of a group they were.
We had a great, tremendous leaderand Eric Robertson, who was recruited by
John Schulman, played a year underhim. Just about his high character of
a kid that I've ever coached,with tremendous leadership skills, just with his

(47:01):
energy and his effort every single day. You had just uber competitive guys like
Trey McClain and Greg Pryor. Youhad an extremely talented front corps player and
Justin Toyo, So there were somepieces we had to add there and added
late and got ended up with agreat guard, Jonathan Burrows, that we
got from a junior college. Andyou know, but that that group was

(47:23):
extremely competitive, and it was ledby Casey Jones, who was one of
the most competitive guys I've ever beenaround. Um was an extreme talented at
twenty two in the second half atGeorgia, you know, it's just this
hybrid power forward slash small forward thatcould do it all. And again I
was his third head coach. Hewas recruited by Shulman and then obviously coached

(47:46):
by Will Wade for two years.So you know, but but you could
see you didn't have to rev thoseguys up in practice. And my biggest
challenge was could we really really becomea team? Could we pull for each
other? Could we root for eachother? And I'm a team and you
know, just once we beat Georgia, they felt the momentum. And then
two games later we beat Illinois andthey really started to believe. And then

(48:09):
Casey dislocated his ankle, which wasreally really a horrific experience in practice the
day before we left for Dayton.When you know, here's your guys leading
you in points, rebounds, andassists. And it was an emotional day
for our team. And I'll neverforget, you know, talking to them
in the hotel room the night beforewe played Dayton, just about we have

(48:29):
to believe and we have to believein each other. And they just continued
to play the game unselfish, andguys started to flourish, and it's almost
like they tried to step up theirplay when Casey went down, like Trey
McLane and Chuck Ester who ended uphaving terrific seasons for us. And we
went through some university no question whenwe got in the league. And then

(48:49):
when we got to the tournament,I think Chattanooga had lost in the first
round the previous three or four years, and there was just some nerves you
could see in their faces. AndI knew if we could get past that
first game, that these guys wouldbelieve that they could win it all.
And that's what happened. What isthat? And then we run into that
We we run into the best fiveseed in the history of the tournament and
Yogi Ferrell in Indiana. Yes,yes, let's see. Was that team

(49:15):
was loaded with Indiana h You guysactually did have the second most wins of
any team that was in the tournamentthat year. You had twenty nine wins.
But how do you celebrate? What'sthe day like when you take Chattanooga
to the NCAA tournament. You know, you get to your phone and you've

(49:36):
got a billion trillion text messages.Um, I mean it was the best
outside of my wedding day, ofcourse, and my two kids being born.
It was the best day I've everhad. Um, the look on
the faces, the excitement just createdaround your program. There's no feeling like
it. And it's like, youknow, it's why you come to the
office on a Sunday in August toget some work done, is to to

(49:59):
experience orience that again. I mean, there's there's really no no feeling like
it. There's not. And um, you know, it was, like
I said, outside of my twokids being born and my wedding day of
course. In case my wife islistening to this podcast, um, it
was. It was the best dayever. And um, you know,
you got a million text messages.But the one phone call. I remember,

(50:20):
we're on the bus, we're headedback to the hotel. Everyone celebrating
in the phone call from coach.Donovan comes in and says, congrats,
I'm happy for you stopped playing onethree one at the end of the game.
You're giving up too many three perfectperfect. Yeah, I got a
coach, I got it. Iactually am curious about about making that move,

(50:42):
though alluded to it earlier, thatmove from from assistant to head coach,
which so many coaches will talk aboutas being so difficult. You know,
assistant coaches, you talk to them, and you know for years they
seem to have all the answers,and then they become head coaches and realize
how difficult that adjustment is. AndI've talked to head coaches who reference things

(51:05):
you don't think about, like,all of a sudden you have to tell
guys you've known for a long time, sorry, but I can't bring you
on my staff. You know,all those difficult parts of it. What
are some things that popped up whenyou became a head coach for the first
time that you hadn't really thought aboutas being challenges that were suddenly challenged.
Listen, I mean it's you thinkyou're ready, You think you're ready to

(51:28):
be a head coach. You really, really do you've been in a thousand
practices, you've been in a thousandindividual instruction workouts, you've been in a
thousand home business Hey, listen,I'm ready, Okay, I know what
I'm doing. I'm ready, Andthen you just get smacked in the face.
And there's so many different things thatcome across your desk that listen,
as many meetings and talks and filmsessions and different things that I've had with

(51:51):
Coach Donovan, there's just certain thingsyou're not prepared for as a head coach,
and you've got to navigate it.And really, you know, have
a great staff to help you,but it's it's just there's just so many
little things that come across your deskthat you've never had to do. For
Listen, when you're an assistant coach, your job is to scout. Your
job is to work in recruiting ashard as you possibly can. Your job

(52:13):
is to keep things off the headcoach's desk. But no matter how great
your staff is, there's always goingto be things that come across your desk,
whether you're dealing with something, youknow, with one of your players
and academics or off the floor orsomeone's you know, back home or say,
something's always going to come across yourdesk. You know, at Chatternooga,
you're always trying to balance a budget. Where are we at budget wise?

(52:35):
This, that, and the other. When you're at a place like
Florida, you don't have that concern. Where you're you're dealing with things like
that. So there's just one thingafter another that you know, you listen,
you're now you're now dealing with themedia. You're you're talking after a
game, post game, before agame, you know, what are we
going to show the team today?Film wise? What are we gonna do
this scouting? Or are we prepared? What are we gonna run? You
know, all those different things.I think that you know, the easy

(52:57):
part is running a practice or callingit timeout or drawing up a ballplay coming
out of a timeout. I mean, those stuff you're prepared for because you've
seen Billy Donovan do it a thousandtimes, right, But you know,
just the little things that come acrossyour desk. Every hiring a staff,
you know, trying to get yourstaff to be on the same page each
and every day and working together andpulling and rolling together. Never had to

(53:19):
do that as an assistant coach.Your job is just to make sure you're
rowing in that same direction. Iwas a head coach. It's your job
to make sure they're all rowing inthe same direction. But he checked their
egos at the door. You know, our program comes first, not about
you. It's about our program.Just different things like that that you're you've
never had to deal with before,you know, as as an assistant coach.
And let me let me let meask you this, man, let

(53:40):
me let me ask you this.You bring up the idea of hiring your
staff and making sure you're all,you know, headed in the right direction
and together it's cohesive. At thesame time, there has to be a
balance that you can't just everyone understands, hire all yes men, and so
how do you find that balance betweenpeople who both share your vision but are

(54:02):
also willing to challenge you when whennecessary. I think that's important and understanding
that it's important. And I thinkthe biggest thing is is, you know,
I worked for a guy for elevenyears that had zero ego, never
was about him. It was alwaysabout our program. And I think that's

(54:24):
the biggest, the most important thingat the end of the day. You
know, can you check your egoat the door and be completely and consumed
with what is best for you massbasketball or what is best for Chattanooga basketball
right now, you know, andyou want to be challenged, You want
to be pushed. Our disagreements arehealthy. If you just go into a

(54:46):
room and everyone just always agrees onthe same thing, you're never gonna grow,
You're never going to develop. Butunderstanding that the ego piece, you
know, in any business, reallycan get the best of you because you're
always trying to prove yourself. Forum, you know, I always try
to one up the next guy,or you know, well, this is
my guy in recruiting, this iswe got to sign my guy because that

(55:07):
feeds my ego. It can't bethat way. And it wasn't that way
with John Pelfrey, Anthony Grant andDonny Jones. It wasn't that way with
you know, when I was therewith with Norm Roberts and John Pelfrey,
or you know with um, youknow, um Rashaan Burno and John Pelfrey.
You know it's it's you've all gottayes, we're gonna disagree at the

(55:27):
same time, But what is bestfor the University of Florida or University of
Massachusetts or you know, university,whatever it is, what is best for
that program at that point in time. And again I think a lot of
it goes back to ego, well, talking about what's best you you spend
two seasons, then at Chattanooga thesecond season you finished nineteen and twelve,
ten and eight in conference, andreally a remarkable set of circumstances take place

(55:53):
with the with the UMass program intwo thousand and seventeen. The school hires
when there's Pat Kelsey, who lastsa week and then returns to winthrope,
and all of a sudden, thead a good friend of mine, Ryan
Bamford, is faced with this ridiculouslyimpossible scenario of trying to figure out what

(56:15):
to do with the future of theprogram. And obviously, as we know,
you become the head coach, andso everything has worked out, has
worked out great. I know theU mass fans are thrilled with who they
got as head coach. But asas I've read six forty five am March
twenty seven, twenty seventeen, youget the call. Can you take me

(56:36):
through the series of events that transpiredfrom that point? Yeah, it was
you know, a Year two forme at Chattanooga was there was an enormous
amount of challenges. You know,from early on in the season to losing
our I wouldn't say, you know, one of our most valuable players,

(56:59):
if not our most valuable player,to a knee injury in a scrimmagem.
You know that was that really reallyhurt us. And I knew right then
and there, you know, ourteam would struggle without him because he was
just so valuable in so many differentways. To having some great wins early
against Tennessee, you know, hadhad a great win at home against Marshall,

(57:21):
to getting in the league play andgoing through some more injuries and struggling
and really struggling down the stretch.And you know, listen, when you
blow it out of the water andyou win twenty nine games in your first
year, you know, hey,listen, this is this is easy.
Here we go again. Let's doit again. And you know, the
expectations and the pressures and they mounton you, and uh, you know,
we there was an an honest amountof diversity that we went through in
year two that you know, ithad me in a place of really evaluating

(57:46):
where our program was and the thingsthat we needed to do, and it
was a great year for me justto learn and grow. I wish we
would have won twenty five games andgone to the INCA Bay Tournament. Yes,
especially for those seniors that came back. But there was a lot we
went through and a lot that wehad to grow. And I was completely,
one hundred percent committed to being backat Chattanooga. We were moving in
the right direction from a recruiting standpoint. We had two guys signed that both

(58:09):
now playing the Atlantic ten. Sowe were heading in the right direction.
And I was excited and motivated anddriven about being back there, sou and
I was one hundred percent committed tobeing there. And it wasn't even really
looking elsewhere, and um, youknow I was. It was Sunday during
the Elite eight. I was watchingFlorida playing in South Carolina and Madison Square

(58:30):
Garden at home in Chattanooga. Ihad an evening flight and spent the day
with my family there at an eveningflight to go to Florida for two you
know, very important home visits thenext day. And you know, here
I am thinking I'm gonna wake up, you know, relatively early in Florida
and get a nice workout in andyou know, go do these two home
visits. But it was about sixforty five when the phone call came in

(58:52):
and h coach Donovan had called methe previous day and said, Hey,
I just got off the phone withyou mass what do you think. My
response to his question was what doyou think? And um, he responded
with you have to take this job. You know it's it's a job that's
got an enormous amount of tradition.You're gonna be able to recruit the northeast.

(59:14):
Uh. The athletic director who Ispoke to was an unbelievable guy.
There's gonna be some challenges early,but I think this is a great step
and a great move for you.And so I kind of left it at
that. And the phone call camein the next morning, sixty five,
and it was can you get toBoston right now? And I felt like
if I had canceled those two homevisits, uh, you know, that

(59:37):
would have heard our program or setour program back. I wasn't prepared to
do that, so I told himno, I couldn't. I couldn't do
that. Um, but I couldget there, you know later than the
evening, and so I went aboutto day. I did two homes visits
in the state of Florida. Istarted down in the Palm Beach area and
worked my way up to Orlando.UM I called my wife. I told

(59:59):
her to throw a suit in abag. I had an assistant go to
my house in Chattanooga, grabbed asuit. I kept my layover in Atlanta
from Orlando to Atlanta and Atlanta toBoston. I went through security in Atlanta,
I grabbed the suit. I ranback through security with my suit in
hand. I got to my hotelthat night in Boston around two am.

(01:00:20):
I opened the suit bag and waskind of mortified about what suit my wife
picked for me for an interview.It wasn't one of my best, but
it was just kind of a crazy, hectic day to make it to Boston.
And the next morning I met withRyan in a hotel in Boston and
it had a long meeting, andyou know, he kind of had asked

(01:00:42):
me after that to stick around thehotel and had some phone calls to make
and some different things. And Iwas walking around Boston. The only thing
I had was a suit, aChattanooga polo and a pair of slacks with
a pair of Adidas sneakers and Iwas like, well, listen, I
need to walk around Boston here atleast find some kind of pullover because it
was relatively cold outside. And asI'm walking around, Coach Donhaman called me

(01:01:04):
and said, hey, you gotthe job. And he said what do
you think? And I said,I'm gonna ask you again, what do
you think? And he said,you have to take this job. You
have to take it. And nextthing I know, I was back in
the hotel room with Ryan and hisstaff and they asked me to take a
ride out to campus and they weretrying to coordinate how to get my family
up so they could see Amherst aswell. And that was when it became

(01:01:28):
kind of real for me that thiswas going to happen. And my mind
immediately went to the staff, theplayers all back in Chattanooga, the recruits,
because you know, I kind ofknew because of what had happened with
Pat Kelsey that I wasn't going tobe able to leave campus right away and
get back and get in front ofthose kids. And that was something that

(01:01:50):
I have, you know, obviouslya piece in my heart of regret for
that I wish I could have donethat, and I know at the job
didn't allow that. But that's adifficult part when you take a job,
is the relationships that you've build,the conversations that you've had, and you
know, guys's worlds are gonna getup. You know they're gonna get turned
upside down a little bit when thathappens, and you never feel good about
that. So that was the strugglefor me. But you know, they

(01:02:15):
put me in a hotel room andI walked me through this beautiful practice facility
that I'm sitting in right now latethat night and offered me the job that
evening. Incredible story. Incredible story, And Bamford has made it very clear
to people that he hired Kelsey beforehe ever had the chance to meet with
you. And I know he's thrilledthat that things have worked out the way

(01:02:37):
that they have, and I thinkpeople sometimes have misunderstood how those things sometimes
go down, as though you know, he's made it clear it wasn't a
case of you being, you know, a second choice or a third choice.
It was just the fact that hehadn't met with you. And things
move fast in the business, andso he had to make a hire.
He did, and obviously things haveworked out the best for both of you.

(01:03:00):
Derek Kellogg had had been fired,which opened up the door for all
of this. And you know,since John Calipari's run in ninety six,
Mass had Ruiser Flint, Steve Lapps, Travis Ford and Kellogg and has just
been looking to find that that rightformula. And it's been difficult the UMass

(01:03:20):
program. And even when you camein having players transferred incoming transfer point guard
Jalen Brantley diagnosed the career in acart condition. What types of challenges were
you expecting you when you took thatjob? Yeah, I mean again,
it goes back to you never fullyprepared for what you're gonna deal with when

(01:03:43):
you become a head coach. Andum, when I got to Chattanooga,
I wasn't fully prepared to have onehundred percent retention, but we did not
one guy left the roster. Acouple of recruits decided to open their recruitment
back up and ultimately not come,but not one guy left. When I
got there, I knew that wasnot going to be the case when I
took this job. I just knew, um that that guys would leave and

(01:04:06):
um, listen, out of theseven, I believe three of them received
their degree so they could play rightaway. UM. So I knew that
that it was going to be,you know, hard pressed to keep you
know, a lot of them.And it got to the points as guys
were leaving where hey, listen,there's there's a level of concern just about
you know, filling the roster andare we going to have enough bodies and

(01:04:28):
enough guys uh to be able tohave a competitive team each and every night.
Um, you know, and that'spart of the reason that you know,
we wanted to sign Jalen Brantley latethere. We thought that he would
be just a great fit, localkid from Springfield, UM that played for
a prominent AU program here in massand was you know, we were in

(01:04:49):
need of a point guard. Wewere in need of one at that point
in time. UM had no ideathe impact that Luwan would have on this
team. Knew how competitive he was, knew he felt even more comfortable playing
off the ball. But you know, it's the reason we took Jalen.
And with Jalen, you know,we felt like, okay, between Lauan
and Jalen you've got two guys thathave you know, logged some significant minutes

(01:05:12):
in the backcourt. You throw C. J. Anderson in the mix.
There, there's there's there's three guysthat have played a lot of minutes college
basketball, and our backcourt's pretty competitive. And then before we even start practice,
you get you know, knocked inthe face with Jalen you know,
not being able to play, whichwas the first piece of adversity that we
went through on the year, andwe went through an enormous amount um,

(01:05:33):
you know, and um, thebiggest thing I'll say though, was about
our kids and our guys and thatteam last year. They didn't quit.
They brought up every single night nomatter what. You know, whether it
was right before Dayton when we loseRashawn Holiway, who had had some terrific
games early against Georgia and Providence andtwo huge wins. He was terrific against
BYU we lost too at the Buzzer, uh and Harvard, who we lost

(01:05:56):
too in overtime at the Buzzer.So, um, you know, losing
him right before you know, essentiallyyour third league game was again a blow.
And then we had injuries throughout thecourse that took other guys from us
to where at one point at GeorgeMason, we lose at the Buzzer,
or we lose an overtime at theBuzzer with four scholarship players. So you
know, there was just a lotthat we went through. But you know,

(01:06:18):
when you take a job, younever expect seven guys to leave.
I knew there would be some turnover, So there was a lot the world
was spending, you know, lastApril, and you just try to continue
to pour into players and get guysbought in that want to be here,
and really hit the ground running andstart recruiting. And the first recruit that
I met with was was Carl Pierre, and I knew right away this kid

(01:06:40):
was going to be a special player, and it meant something to him to
be in his home state of Massachusettsand staying home, didn't have one division
one offer, was getting ready toenroll in prep school and and said,
hey, listen, this is theplace I want to be. And I'm
so glad we took him. Iknow you're busy, and I don't want
to keep going. Couple more questions, but one is about that that that

(01:07:03):
talent that you have. Now youtalk about Carl Pierre and lamps Hips lamp
Hipkins, it's uh two special playersthat I think a lot of the country
doesn't know much about him. Phipkinsaverage over twenty points a game this year,
but still that that talent is certainlythere For people that haven't seen those
guys, how would you describe them? Well, I think, you know,

(01:07:25):
starting with Carl um if he didn'tfinish at the top, he was
at one point last year for freshmenin the country, leading the country in
three point field goal percentage. Ifhe didn't finish there, he's close.
Um just an elite, elite,elite level shooter that really got thrown to

(01:07:45):
the fire. You know, Ithought when he came on his visit and
I worked him out, I feltlike he was going to be a guy
that, yes, could really reallyhelp us. I didn't know how soon
just because of his body, Umwould it would have developed fast enough with
the weight room to be able tohandle a you know, thirty three games
season, and he just he gotbetter and better and better as the year

(01:08:08):
win. I mean, I lookback at our Harvard game, I think
he played sixteen seventeen minutes. HadI played him more against Harvard, we
may won the game, so youknow, And it got to the point
where he was starting before the leagueplay and was terrific in games against Georgia
and Providence, and then when wegot to the league, he had some
huge games for US and home winsagainst LaSalle and Saint Joe's. Obviously at

(01:08:31):
Dayton was a big win for US, and at home against Dayton. So
he just developed and kept getting betteras the year win and he's got this
competitiveness about him. And then Lawanas a guy that is one of the
most fierce competitors I've ever coached.The moments never too big for him.
He is always going as hard ashe possibly can in between the lines.

(01:08:57):
He wants to win, and he'sgoing to do everything he can in practice
and in games to make sure thathappens. He had forty four in a
game for US this year and atfive eight, I don't care who you're
playing against anything like that. That'simpressive. He ended up leading the league
and scoring as a sophomore and justa complete fearless competitor, maybe one of

(01:09:20):
the most I've ever had as acoach. Vanford said about you, Matt
has far exceeded my expectations in yearone. He is a relentless worker,
a very strong communicator, and acoach with high self confidence because he has
been around winning programs and has tremendousmentors. Matt has never wavered once from
his blueprint for success, even aswe turn the roster over last spring and

(01:09:43):
summer and have had other times ofadversity this year. That part of the
quote, Matt has never wavered oncefrom his blueprint for success really stood out
to me. What is your blueprintfor success? I think the biggest thing
is his understanding that nothing becomes beforethe program. Our program as always first
our players in our program. Uh, you know the things that we're going

(01:10:05):
to value every single day. We'regonna value our team. We're gonna value
discipline, We're gonna value passion.Um. You know, I'm a I'm
a guy that is high energy.I feel like I can get my point
across without without having a lot oftimes to be negative and more times be
positive. Uh. And that's somethingthat I try to bring every single day

(01:10:27):
is a lot of energy, alot of positivity to make sure that our
players get bought in each and everyday. I mean those things are the
biggest things that we value and I'mI don't want to waiver at all.
And making sure that our players understandthat our values are the most important thing.
And it's it's not about you know, just going out, you know,

(01:10:47):
every single day and and and puttingthe ball through the net. There's
a lot more that goes into winning. And um, you know, I
think that you know, making surethat no matter what, even when it
adversity hits, the challenges that arebrought the things that we're dealing with,
we always go back, you know, to our our values and you know,

(01:11:09):
the last one is being tough andtoughness and always being able to do
your job no matter the circumstance thatyou're in. And um, you know,
I'm not wavering on those. Uh, you know, I tell our
staff all the time, you know, the things some of the things that
I'm not I'll go to the matfor is is being negative. I think
we've got to have a positive approach. I think it's a different day and

(01:11:29):
age with with with the guys thatwe're dealing with, you know, in
eighteen nineteen twenty year olds. Sometimessome guys respond to negativity, but a
lot of guys respond to positivity,and um, you know you're reading different
articles about Brad Stevens and the waythat he did that and seeing Coach Donovan
each and every day. You know, I know what good looks like,

(01:11:49):
and we just got to continue tostick to the script and the opportunity.
Man, I just feel so fortunateeach and every day that I've been given
here at you Mass, you know, to be able to put your own
stamp on a program that's had somuch history. You know, guys like
Marcus Canby, Edgar Pedia, CarmeloTravioso, you know, Tie Weeks.
Those guys have been tremendous to mesince I've gotten the job, and just

(01:12:13):
are really excited about the direction thatwe're heading him. We're not We're not
there yet. We got a longway to go. Um, you know
how good we can be this year. I think we've got pieces. I
think we have talent, but again, we've got to become a team and
we've got to stick to that processevery single day. Last question for you,
coach, and that is you knowthere are student managers probably listening to

(01:12:35):
this podcast right now that programs allover the country, you know, and
whether they're doing laundry or sweeping thefloors, and and and wondering what's next?
Is it worth it? How doI even go about this? So
my question to you, what advicedo you have for these guys as they're

(01:12:58):
looking to possibly take that next stepand get into the field of coaching at
any level. Listen, man,no job is too small. And whatever
job you've been given, whatever taskyou've been given to do with an enormous
amount of energy and passion every singleday, it'll grow into something bigger.
And when you get you know,when you're fortunate enough to get opportunities,

(01:13:19):
get more responsibility, grow in thisbusiness. Don't take a single day for
granted and just relish and where you'reat right now. And as long as
you do that, you stick tothe process, anything can happen. And
it's not just me, it's there'sbeen different guys all around the country that
have worked their way up through theranks and through this business. And there's

(01:13:39):
gonna be times where you want toget frustrated and the door may close,
but you know, hey, listen, another one's gonna open. As long
as you check your ego at thedoor and do the best job you possibly
can and serve the program one hundredpercent wherever you're at. Awesome coach Matt
McCall. I wish your tremendous success. I don't doubt for a second that

(01:14:00):
you'll have it, and I reallyappreciate you joining me on the forty Year
Coach podcast and it's been a pleasureman anytime. Big thanks to coach Matt
McCall. Like I said, Idon't doubt for a moment that he is
going to have a wonderful career coachingat the University of Massachusetts. If you
want to follow Matt McCall on Twitter, he is at Coach Matt McCall mcc

(01:14:25):
a LLL. You can follow meAdam Staco on Twitter at Nay Smith Lives,
and of course you can follow thispodcast on Twitter at forty year Coach.
Also like to thank Ari Kay,Sydney Smith and of course Mark Eisenberg.
And remember we've got some outstanding guestscoming up in the next few weeks.

(01:14:45):
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