October 23, 2018 • 48 mins
Adam Stanco’s in-depth interview with former NBA player and current Colorado assistant coach Kim English. They discuss the coach’s childhood, including how a speech impediment destroyed his confidence, but basketball helped restore it. He shares stories about some of his early playing experiences, taking the court alongside NBA stars and reveals what they taught him about the game. They take a deep dive into what it takes to win, breaking down the details of what winning plays actually look like. The former Missouri star tells a remarkable story about how he overcame adversity brought on by hubris. They also discuss English’s most painful loss and how he’s turned it into a valuable lesson, even though it still haunts him.
Find out more at 40YearCoach.com and follow us on Twitter...
Adam Stanco: @naismithlives
40 Year Coach Podcast: @40YearCoach
Kim English: @Englishscope24
Sydney Smith: @SydGSmitty
Find out more at 40YearCoach.com and follow us on Twitter...
Adam Stanco: @naismithlives
40 Year Coach Podcast: @40YearCoach
Kim English: @Englishscope24
Sydney Smith: @SydGSmitty
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:14):
This is the fourty Year Coach podcaston Madam Stango. Excited to bring on
our guests today, Kim English.But before we get to the Coach,
just want to remind you that we'dlove for you to rate and review us
on iTunes and subscribe. Do itright now, you don't want to miss
some of the incredible episodes we've gotcoming up. Also, if you don't
have an iPhone, we're available onSpreaker or on iHeartRadio and you can always
(00:37):
check us out at four to yearcoachdot com. Now into our guest,
Kim English is one of the fastestrising stars in the coaching community, and
before he became a coach, hewon a school record one hundred and seven
games in four years at Missouri,leading the team to four straight NCAA Tournament
appearances. He was also the mostOutstanding Player in the twenty twelve Big Twelve
(00:58):
Tournament and played in the NBA forthe Detroit Pistons. He's currently an assistant
coach at Colorado. In May,he was named as a National Association of
Basketball Coaches Under Armor thirty Under thirtyhonoree and is one of the first names
you'll hear when you ask those inthe college hoops community about which assistant coach
(01:18):
will be the next head coaching star. Kim English, Welcome to the forty
Year Coach podcast. Adam, thanksfor having me. I really appreciate it.
Yeah, Kim, I have totell you that you were one of
the first names that came up whenwe were discussing having guests for season one
of the forty Year Coach podcasts.So I'm really pumped to speak to you.
(01:40):
I want to take it back tothe early life. Born in Baltimore,
September twenty fourth, nineteen eighty eight. Early on, I've read that
you had stuttering problems, which isincredible to me because or to anyone that's
heard you give interviews or speeches.Can you tell me what what that time
(02:00):
in your life was like as achild and dealing with with some stuttering issues.
Yeah, well, I mean,I guess theoretically I still do,
UM have a stutter. Just asI've grown, I've developed um different strategies
and mechanisms that helped me cope betterand speak more clear UM influently. UM.
(02:24):
But yeah, I mean I wasI was a kid that had a
speech impediment, a stutter and Ihad speech pathologists growing up, but um,
Baltimore Public School Systems speech pathology departmentdoesn't lead the nation. I don't
know if you guessed that, Butso it really didn't help me much then.
(02:47):
UM, but as I got tocollege, m AS, I started
to do more research on my own. UM, through trial and error of
just doing doing any views or talkingto my team, UM, I developed
some strategies that that that helped mespeak a little better. UM. And
(03:07):
UM yeah, it's it's it's notcured by a long shot, but I
have a pretty good grasp on it, and I UM try to help young
kids with this stutter any any chanceI get. You know, it's really
remarkable when you talk to different peoplewho have found success in all walks of
(03:30):
life, UM, but certainly inbasketball. UM, you come to find
out that so many of them dealtwith adversity at a young age and found
a way to to overcome it.UM. You know, we we spoke
to Dick vital And and he toldus about you know, being being teased
as a as a boy, umand and bullied because of um, you
(03:53):
know, his eyesight issues. Andthere's so many there's countless stories. But
I'm interested it from your perspective.How did the game of basketball in the
relationships you had at that time,how did they impact what what you were
dealing with, and eventually what helpedyou overcome well? Growing up, Um,
(04:14):
before basketball ever became a thing inmy life, just playing outside,
like cracking jokes on one another orwho was the funniest or or fights or
like that was the game. Andfor a guy that had a girl name,
(04:36):
I mean, my name's Kim andstuttered like I was the butt of
a lot of jokes. You know, as a kid and kids can be
cruel, but it makes you tougher. I think, um, and yeah,
that was tough. I mean Iwouldn't. I mean, I know
bullying as a big emphasis and initiative, and I wouldn't call it bullying.
(04:56):
I just call it kids being kids. But truth is, I did of
a girl name and I stuttered,so it was a lot of laughter directed
at me. But when basketball becamean issue, it was something I kind
of gravitated to, worked hard at, and got good at pretty quickly.
I started playing at a late age, with thirteen. I started playing at
(05:19):
at thirteen, and I got goodquick. So the jokes kind of stopped
because if you were a kid,that was joking. But we get on
the court, you know, nowthe jokes on you because I'm better than
you. So basketball really helped withkind of the child's play, if you
(05:41):
will, of growing up. Basketballkind of lessen the jokes a little bit.
Well, I'm interested. You sayyou didn't play until you're thirteen,
but I've read that your your father, Kim English Senior, played at Baltimore
Community College. He's described himself asCharles Barkley with a jump shot. So
it's pretty pretty impressive if that's Ifthat's the case, But how do you
(06:04):
then not play ball till you're tillyou're thirteen? If your if your dad
is is a really good player.Yeah, he was a a good player,
um um, and um not shyabout telling me how good he was.
But he was all city growing up, and he played at Division two
Shaw University of North Carolina and transferredback to Baltimore. Um. Yeah,
(06:29):
I don't know, I don't know. I just I just I played everything
as a really young guy. Imean, baseball, football, track,
and then eventually basketball. How howmuch do you think that you know,
I just booked a Steve Kerr recentlyabout the idea that kids today, um,
you know, don't play different sportsand how that's had an impact.
(06:50):
How do you see it now,especially since you're recruiting a lot of guys
that only play one sport and haveonly played one sport since the time they're
six or seven years old. Yeah, I mean that there's a rare ocre
occasion of a high level player,at least at our level, that that
still plays multiple sports. Most ofthose guys usually are one sport guys.
(07:12):
But I love the versatility of akid growing up, giving a lot of
different things to try. I thinkany time you can put a young person.
Bob Hill has been here with usthe last a few days. He
recruited coach Boyle to Kansas, andobviously it was in the NBA for a
(07:33):
long time, but he said somethingthis morning that I thought was great.
He said, the essence of thegame of basketball, the thing that makes
it great, the reason we loveit unconditionally is teamwork. Teamwork is the
essence of basketball, I think,And because it's teamwork, I think any
time any opportunity or chance that youhave to be a part of a team,
(07:57):
you should do it. Um,there's something to learn from it.
There's something about the quest in pursuitof a championship. And I use a
lot of other sport analogies and mycoaching all the time. I mean,
you know, when I'm telling areon ball defenders to pressure the ball,
(08:20):
I use the analogy of you've neverseen a defensive line just stand up when
a quarterback hikes the ball, right, He's just not in the pocket with
no pressure. If he was,that would really make it hard on the
the dbs. And in basketball,that's your off ball defenders. So it's
(08:43):
so many analogies throughout sport in ourgame. Um, So I love multiple
sport guys, I love it.I love it you talk about teamwork.
One of the stories I've heard aboutyou is that when when you were coming
up and starting those early stages ofyour playing career, that you had the
chance to play in adult league gameswith some former NBA guys, you know,
(09:07):
famous Baltimore area guys, David Wingate, Muggsy Bogues. What can you
tell me about about that experience?It was them, It meant everything to
my career. I was talking totalking about that, yes, And I
think that's kind of been lost inour game right now, guys of trainers
(09:28):
and workout guys and whatever. Butyeah, I mean just playing with my
dad and his friends, guys thatyou wouldn't know, and some guys you
might know, um, Marty Johnsonand Sam Cassell and Mark Carter and Keith
Booth and Carmelo and Marcus Hatton andMuggsy, And that's where I learned to
play. And that's all we didwas play. We didn't I never had
(09:54):
a trainer growing up. I neverhad a workout guy. Yeah. I
shot on my own and I shotwith a friend and I played five on
five every day in the summertime.And that was huge in my development growing
up as a young player. Whatdid you learn about the game from those
guys? Well, Um, asa young player, you learn that winning
(10:20):
is important because now, well atthat time, that'd be twenty twenty five
people in the gym, so ifyou lose, you had to sit for
a long time. So you quicklylearn what you need to do to win.
And the only way you get pickedup on a team is if you
(10:41):
can do that, if you cando what it takes to win at a
high level, that's the only wayolder guys, pros are gonna pick you.
Um, and so yeah, man, I mean it taught you how
to win, taught you try tobe efficient. You don't want to disappoint
NBA plays if they allow you tobe on that team. So I think,
(11:03):
in its simplest form, it justjust just taught us how to play
the game. And I mean itwasn't just me. It was Malcolm Delaney
who was with the Hawks last year, Dante Green played maybe four years in
the league, Dwan Summers, alot of really good young players, all
playing with good older players, andit just has built a great bond of
(11:28):
Baltimore basketball players. Even now whenI go home, I Rodney Elliott,
it's another guy, some really goodgood players. Yeah, I mean the
legend of some of those old schooldumbar teams you hear about. Um,
I can't imagine what that scene waslike, but but I still am am
(11:50):
curious. You know, I thinkit was in the back page of a
slam magazine I had read once abouthow Kenny Smith said, you know,
he'd go back to the neighborhood andand try to explain to people how good
NBA players were, And he said, you know, you see Steve Kerr
on TV and you think you couldtake Steve Kurse, Steve Kurr will give
you fifty. Um uh, MuggsyBobs. What what was it like to
(12:13):
play with him? So Muggsy isreally close to my dad. Um.
They were almost best friends growing up, and so when when Muggsy was in
Charlotte they'd come and play the Bullets, we we'd drive down to DC and
watch him play, or if theywould have played Philly, we go to
(12:35):
a game and again just learning thegame from the best. UM. I
remember I was really young, maybetwelve or thirteen. Yeah, I was
thirteen or fourteen, and it wasjust I think Muggsy had a cookout at
his house, barbecue, and soI played, UM played him one on
(13:00):
one on his driveway court, andhe was kind of going through the motions
and I beat him. I beathim like six to one or something like
that. And I'm a kid,he's an NBA vet And I really thought
I had just beat Muggsy Bows andI was like talking about it and feeling
really good about it. And thenext day when we played pickup was at
(13:24):
a middle school called Deer Park,and Muggsy came and before we played five
and five, him and I playedone on one again. We checked it
up and he beat me twelve tonothing. I'll never forget it. And
it was a quick lesson and onethat he let me win. And yeah,
what you said about Kenney Smith,how good pros really are even here
(13:46):
and at Colorado. And when Iwas a Tulsa I mean I wasn't a
good NBA player by any by anystretch the imagination. I only played one
year. I didn't score a lotof points. Um, but I haven't
lost a game a one on oneand four years of coaching and it's not
even close. So just kind ofum expressing that to our guys, how
(14:09):
good you have to be to getthere and and more importantly stick there.
That's a that's a great lesson.I love it. I love it when
when when you progress on and yougo on to high school, UM,
Randallstown in Maryland. UM. Ithink the one thing as I as I
looked back at your at your careeris just the winning. I mean winning
(14:31):
is something that you know, uh, was part of your makeup and over
and over again you look back atyour career and all you did was win,
and UM, when state championships atat Randallstown in Maryland, and when
you finish up your time there,UM, you moved on to Notre Dame
Prep in Massachusetts and spent a yearat the prep school. UM. You
(14:54):
guys go to the semi finals theNational Prep School Invitational. Your team mv
UM. But I'm curious what broughtupon your decision to go to a prep
school after finishing up high school.UM. I didn't have a good enough
SAT score UM to qualify UM throughthe NCAA clearinghouse at the time, So
(15:16):
I needed that extra year prep tocontinue to try to work on my test
score and I did that UM andeventually got the score I needed. But
UM, in regards to winning,I think it is the precipice of it
is back to those games, Likeit was the first lesson I learned if
you UM finish them. What Imean, it was sure not not shooting,
(15:39):
it wasn't ball handling. It wasit was winning. It was the
most important thing. It was UM, what took the most pride in UM.
And yeah, like I didn't reallythink about much else in the game
UM. And so yeah, wedid at high school and obviously had really
good teammates along the way, UMtwo other Division one guys at Randallstown and
(16:06):
a slew of Division one of playersin prep school and then even in college.
And in college, I think itwas kind of a culture shift because
when we committed to Missouri, theydidn't do a lot of winning. We
committed to a sixteen and sixteen teamwith a bunch of guys that had never
been in the NCAA tournament. AndI remember, on my visit to Missouri
(16:30):
got done playing pickup and a bunchof the players they were all seniors,
so I knew they were leaving,they were all graduating and UM. But
after pickup they were in a lockerroom and the guys were talking about you
know who outplayed who, or rememberthis play I did this to you,
or I dunked on you or Imade you fall. And I just I
(16:52):
just thought that was such a smallmindset of focus and on a level of
basketball as high as the Big twelve. And I wouldn't have went to Missouri
if those guys were sophomores or juniors. Those guys were seniors, and the
sophomores and the juniors or the juniorswere Demari Carroll and Matt Lawrence and Leo
(17:15):
Lyons some guys that kind of Ithought had some good substance about themselves.
And when we got there as freshman, I made a major emphasis after we
got done played pickup. We allthis was before the time where we had
the your coaches could have come attackwith you in the off season, so
you were on your own. Itwas weights and it was pickup was everything.
(17:38):
And after we got done our sevengame pickup series that we played every
day, five days a week,the conversation around the water cooler in the
locker room was about who won thatseven game series? That was it.
Who won the seven game series?And if your team wasn't wasn't a winner,
(17:59):
then then you should feel bad aboutyourself. If your team did win,
you should feel really good about yourself. So I thought that was a
really big paradigm shift in the cultureat Missouri when we got there, and
DeMar was a big part of it. I mean, I think he was
was sick of losing. And ourfreshman class, me and Marcus Demon and
(18:22):
Lawrence Bowers, we had never lostum. So it was a good marriage
of guys that were sick of losingand some new guys that had never lost,
and it was great. We werethirty one and seven. We won
the Big twelve tournament, we wentto the Elite eight, we lost to
Yukon and the the the the regionalfinal. So um yeah, And I've
(18:48):
tried to bring that mindset everywhere I'vebeen as a coach thus far. Um
beat at Tulsa and now here atColorado and Kim. What's interesting is we
hear that from guys. Sometimes wehear about the idea of that the winning
mentality, and I think, um, the competitive side is really interesting,
(19:15):
specifically on a like game to gamebasis. And I'm even talking and pick
up for young players out there.You know, what does this sounds ridiculous
as a question, but I stillthink it never really gets specifically answered.
What does winning look like? Imean in the makeup of it? What
are the plays that that makeup winning? What does winning look like? Well,
(19:41):
um, that's a great question.Um, I think it could be
answered simple as um, the focusto win the possession, Like that's it.
If your focus is just to geta stop on this defensive but this
(20:03):
defensive possession, and you put allyour focus, all your power and strength
and ability into getting a stop onthis possession. That's what winning looks like.
If on offense, it's taking careof the ball, it's delivering perfect
passes, it's thinking of your teammatesmore than yourself with the focus to get
(20:30):
the best shot possible. I thinkthat's what winning looks like. It's the
it's it's not the scoreboard at theend of the game, it's the battles
won. If I'm quantifying possessions tobattles, that's what winning looks like.
(20:52):
Villanova. I mean, I studywinners at all levels in our game,
in different sports, different coaches.And I have a friend, Matt for
Schiller, who's on staff at ata Villanova, and I just pick his
brain constantly on what they emphasize anddo. And their word is attitude.
(21:15):
That's their team slogan. You're havinga great attitude. And they chart what
they call attitudes statistics and this chargesdeflections, good shot contest, block shots,
offensive rebounds, tap backs, quickoutlet passes after rebounds and Florida's and
(21:37):
they put that up in the lockerroom and they chart it. So guys
at this level are really competitive.So if you see you're in the middle
of the pack, or you're winningor you're trailing. You have guys want
to want to see their name getup on that chart, get higher on
that chart. And now you havea team full of compact editors competing to
(22:02):
see who can contest the most shots, who can get the most offensive rebounds,
who can outlet the ball quickly onon rebound, who who's leading a
team? It dives on the floor, who's leading a team at charges?
That's maybe a better answer into whatgoes into winning those things. I love
(22:22):
that. I love that, andlook you did. You were able to
answer something I thought would be somewhatdifficult to quantify maybe, but I think
it was interesting. Is when youwere at Missouri. Obviously you know you
did, as I mentioned, aton of winning. You talk about it.
I mean that that freshman year,going to the Elite eight. Sophomore
year, you guys win twenty threegames. Junior you win twenty three games.
(22:47):
But something else that I found interestingin researching you, and that was
to read about some of the strugglesyou had with your confidence your junior year,
and it was you're playing for MikeAnderson. It's really your mark to
me to be reading about this becauseyou know from Afar people that have seen
you, I think think Kim English, this confident player that always had exudes
(23:11):
confidence and does all the little thingsto win as you as you just described
that, the Villanova does as well. Frank Haithe said that when he was
going back and looking at tape,he would be your coach your senior year.
But but when he went back andstarted to look at your tape from
your junior year, he described itsaying he didn't shoot the ball well because
he was trying so hard. Thenhe lost confidence and it just kept mounting
and mounting for him. What wasthat period of your career? Like,
(23:36):
Yeah, we kind of lost ourway a little bit as a program,
and it was a and we tookenough talent too, and we still played
hard and we still wanted to Wehad a really good non conference, We
had a lot of really good wins, but we we faltered in league play.
I think we were five hundred andBig twelve and I think we ended
up being a last team in thetournament. But um we um. We
(24:02):
had a team full of really talentedplayers. And when you give a team
freedom sometimes it's not a good thingbecause you know, if your freedom.
Technically I can I can always makea play when I catch the ball,
(24:23):
like, yeah, technically I couldgo score. And we kind of lost
our way of playing for and witheach other. Um, And that's the
team answer as to why we andI and that's why we struggled. I
struggled because I started to get onNBA draft boards as a sophomore draft Express
(24:45):
or draft dot Net, whatever itmay be, and I started kind of
to lose my m DNA of onlyfocusing on winning, and I really started
to care about that stuff and worryabout that stuff and just pure immaturity,
not under not really focusing on orunderstanding that that is so far out of
(25:10):
my control in the current state ofwhat we're doing trying to win this game.
And so yeah, focusing on thewrong stuff hurt me. Us.
Not playing to our best ability hurtme a little bit. And to other
people's standards, that would have beena great season. We made it to
(25:33):
the NCLA Tournament. We lost ina first round game to a really good
Cincinnati team, and but to ourstandards, that wasn't the way we played.
And we we fixed that that thatoffseason, we took a deep look
at ourselves individually as a team.Coach eighth came and did wonders for our
team. Well, quite a bitto unpack there, right. I appreciate
(25:57):
your honesty in terms of, youknow, recognizing that you know, the
draft sort of was looming, andthinking about you know, yourself as an
individual player rather rather than the team. And I'm curious about that, you
know, with with the young playersmight be listening, or even for coaches,
I'm curious now as a head coachor as a coach UM at the
(26:21):
Division one level, UM, howmuch do you recognize it in in guys,
maybe not even on your own team, but on other teams? And
and how how can you address itas a guy who went through it.
Yeah, it's real. It's atthis level, it's real, and it's
something I think you have to constantlyaddress and educate your your players, your
best players on UM and it hitsall the time. I mean I talk
(26:44):
to one of our players, McKinleywright about it all the time. And
now it's even more because it's socialmedia induced. It might not be a
draft board, it might just beconstant adulation and praise and clicks on on
social media and UM, so justtrying to keep them focused on the present
(27:06):
and understand that that's the most importantthing. You can kind of help them
lose focus in the unimportant if youhave them insanely focused on the daily,
on the process. So with McKinley, it's we practice at seven thirty every
morning here at Colorado seven thirty am. We're on the floor. McKinley,
(27:30):
Wright, Shane Gatling, and TylerBay are on the court of six forty
five every morning going through individual workouts. They watch film after practice, constantly
sending those guys articles about some ofthe best players in the world, talking
about their humility, their focus,their their their their commitment to the daily,
(27:56):
to the process, and any chanceI get, um, I just
try to show our guys how thebest players in the world behave on social
media. Like Steph Carey is notretweeting every time someone says something good about
him. M Jalen Brunson, whograduated from villan Ovan three years and was
a first round draft pick, isnot talking about how good he is on
(28:19):
social media, you know. So, So any chance I get to educate
those guys, it could, itcan. I may be wrong. I
don't know. I just feel likeconsistent, constant reminders is the best way
(28:40):
to go in that regard as opposedto keeping your team, keeping your best
players focused on the task, andthat's one getting them to be better players,
and two is winning the next game. Or probably flip those deals.
One is winning the next game,and two then becoming better players. But
I think those things go hand inhand. I think them becoming better players
(29:03):
helps you win the next game well. And what's fascinating about all that is
there has to be an authentic natureto who you are as a coach.
Because you take a guy like McKinleywriting for those that haven't seen him play
or haven't seen him play a lot. I mean, I think as as
good of a league guard as thereisn't in the country. And obviously it's
(29:26):
future super bright. And I hateto be counter to what you just said
in terms of the humility, butobviously no, that's fine. So that's
the thing that I tell him isother people are going to talk about you,
and it feels good. As aplayer, it feels good to have
other people tell you how good youare. But like, you don't have
to you don't have to be ayou don't have to promote yourself, right,
(29:52):
right, but go ahead, butI was I was just gonna say,
but as the balance though for acoach and speaks to, you know,
the respect that your players have foryou, the balance of a coach
because to say, hey, don'tbuy into that when you know that there's
professional basketball in you know, andyeah, in his future. I mean,
(30:12):
if you're not genuine message, soyou can't be faked with it,
right, So, so you can'tbe fake with it, like it's it's
it's it's it's no sugarcoating players havea PhD and knowing if you're really not.
So it's like with McKinley or let'sjust let's just use him as an
(30:33):
example. I'm like, don't beupset about not getting invited to a Nike
Skills Academy over the summer, orso what about the Bob Kuzy watch list?
Like what does that really mean?Like I'll straight tell him, Like
Damian Lillard got one hundred and twentysix million, what would you rather have?
(30:56):
Would you rather be invited to theNike Skills of Out of Me or
would you rather be on the preseasonBob Kozy list or would you rather have
one hundred and twenty six million dollarsand set in six years. So I'm
like, only focus on like,focus on that, Like like what does
(31:17):
a watch list mean? What doesa camp invite me? Just focus on
becoming the absolute best player you canbe, focus on winning as many games
as you can possibly win, andthen all the other stuff will just happen.
And so yeah, you're right.So it's like, I don't not
talk about it. I mean,it's real. I mean, I mean,
(31:41):
I'll if I'm a player that doesn'tplay well and i had an honest
talk with an NBA scout after thegame, I'll tell him, I'll say,
man, he says he wants tosee you guard your position better.
Like that. That's real conversations yougotta have with guys. That's really interesting.
(32:04):
Yeah, and again I think itspeaks to that authenticity that you have.
And Um, like you said thatplayers will see right through it every
time. UM as a player whenyou know touched on it. Frank Haye
takes over from Mike Anderson in twothousand eleven. He um Anderson leaves in
(32:25):
March and Haye takes over in April. It's pretty wild. I mean,
that's going into your senior year.You you talked about the team losing its
way, you talked about you asan individual. You know, it was
tumultuous times. Anderson leaves, herecomes a new head coach. What was
that transition like for you personally?Well, I was fortunate enough I knew
(32:52):
new coach. Hey, he recruitedme at Miami I was actually going to
commit to him at Miami UM onmy visit, but my visit was like
the weekend after day Kuan Jones,and day Kuan Jones committed before I could,
So I knew coach and that kindof helped as far as my relationship
with him. The rest of ourguys didn't, so he kind of had
(33:15):
to earn their respect. But he'sa big He's had a huge impact on
my coaching career, mostly from astandpoint of authenticity with the players. It's
so important you have to live inthe world of the truth. Kevin Eastman
(33:36):
las to say, live in theworld of the truth, and the only
way you can be truthful with playersis if they know you love him.
And he did a great job ofestablishing his relationship with us early, and
we knew he loved us, andhe could coach us as hard as he
wanted to, He could be asreal with us as he wanted to.
(33:59):
He could say, Kimp Man,you're not a good ball handler. Just
shoot the ball. I'd rather youshoot the ball than try to dribble it.
And I'm like, all right,just started shooting the ball. And
so he did a great job ofthat. And then and then system wise,
I think he's one of the bestoffensive coaches in the country. He
(34:22):
implemented a four our one and spread, pick and row offense that year that
really served us well and really didwell in our league. The Big twelve
was big physical league. We playedfour guards, we spread the floor out
and had a lot of success.According to Kim Palm, it was the
(34:44):
fifth best offense since Kim Palm hasbeen tracking this stuff and adjusted offensive numbers.
So yeah, he was a phenomenalcoach. It's ridiculous, No,
I want to get to that fourguard systems that you guys were playing at
the time. But but you hiton something that I'm really curious about.
(35:04):
You said that when Frank Keith camein, he established that relationship, established
that love. How did he dothat part through walking a class with you?
On campus and just talking talking toyou on the phone late at night,
(35:25):
having you over for dinner at hishouse, meeting his family. He
did something for me that was huge. And I'd always been a pretty good
shooter, but he made me agreat shooter. He made our film guy
at the time, Brian Tibaldi,who was down an Assistan at Cleveland State,
(35:46):
one of my best friends. Brianclipped up every miss I had from
the season before, and I justsit there and Coach Hay's office and watch
every one of my misshots. Itwas one of the hardest basketball things I've
ever had to do. Sit thereand watch a hundred miss jump shots or
whatever it may be, a drive, a terrible shot, you know,
(36:09):
a contested look. And we critiquedhim. We talked about every miss.
Why do you think that didn't goin? It wasn't a good shot.
Why didn't think I didn't go in? I faded away? Well, I
don't think that go in. Iwasn't shot ready. Why didn't that go
in? My balance was really bad. So after we sat down and unpacked
(36:30):
all of that, we watched everymake, every make and why I did
that go in? I had reallygood balance? Why did that go in.
It was a really good shot.The extra pass, why did that
go in? It was the rightplay. And through this list we compiled,
there was commonalities with the misses andthere were commonalities with the makes.
(36:55):
And as we worked that spring insummer, it was stopped doing the things
you did when you missed and startdoing the things you did when you made
shots. And I went from meI think I was thirty nine percent of
the freshman, thirty seven of thesophomore, thirty six of the junior from
three, and I was forty sevenpercent from three as a senior. And
(37:17):
it was one of the most profoundthings I've ever done as a basketball player
in breaking down someone's game. That'samazing. Have you taken any players through
the same exercise. I've done itonce. I've done it once. I
did it with the kid at Tulsa, James James Woodard. What's interesting too
about that team. You guys endup going thirty and five your senior year,
(37:42):
Lawrence Bowers tears his Aclkadeem Green transfers. You guys had two post players,
seven total scholarship players, and tothen end up with as you just
describe some of the best offense thatwe've seen in college basketball. Kim Palm's
numbers back that up. UM schoolrecord twenty seven regular season wins. You
guys win the Big Twelve Tournament,you're named Big Twelve Tournament Most Outstanding Player.
(38:07):
UM. The confidence level you wereplaying with and the style that you
played with, how much were thosesort of correlated? Especially since you had
to play even though you were playingoffensively as a guard, you're playing that
four out system, you still hadto guard four men on the other end,
UM, and you're guarding some somepost players UM every night. So
(38:30):
how much how much did that systemwork for you? And and and get
your confidence level up? UM?Well it's UM. Playing a guard at
the four in college basket was oneof the best mismatches in college basketball.
UM. The only thing better thanthat is playing a four at the five.
UM. Obviously, the ability tospace the flour helps. I mean,
(38:52):
I was being a shooting guard.I was drafted an NBA to play
a shooting guard, and I wasbeing guarded by college four men. So
from an offensive standpoint, is reallyeasy for me to get shots, to
create space for us to drive closeoutsto UM attack mismatches defensively, Um,
it's really just playing post defense beforethe ball is in it and boxing out.
(39:17):
Um. That's really it. Ifa college team thinks they're going to
exploit a a big guard mismatch byposting up the guard, they're mistaken.
One, college players aren't that goodm comparedly speaking to two NBA foremen,
and and two it's probably not whatyou want to do offensively is to play
(39:39):
post isolation offense all night. Um. So if you have a guy that
can work hard, UM, playgood defense off the ball, front the
post so that he doesn't have toget the ball in there, and secondly
box out U you you you findout that the mismatches is more oftentimes in
(40:07):
your favor than it is the opponentswhen you go small in college basketball.
I'm curious to two things your senioryear. One that after you win the
Big twelve championship, you told Hollyrowof ESPN that that you had spoken to
the team before the championship game.Do you remember that speech what you said
(40:27):
to the team, Yeah, yeah, yeah, that we had a great
opportunity and in life, that's allyou can ever ask for as an opportunity.
And and if you're prepared. Ifyou're prepared, pressure really doesn't mean
much. And I think that's whatI talked about seven years ago. Yes,
(40:53):
yeah, no, kid, Um, I also know what it must
have been. The one of themost painful loss of your career was in
the NCAA Tournament as a two seed. You guys, many many people thought
you'd go to at least the finalfour and you'd lose to Norfolk State in
the first round. Although what peopledidn't know and maybe you've forgotten since then,
was the kylo Quinn later went onto play for the Knicks was on
(41:15):
that Norfolk State team probably should havenever been a fifteen seed, but that's
how those things go. I'm curiousthough, having experienced that and then moving
on as as a coach after afterthe NBA career, Um, what have
you learned from from that loss inthe NCAA Tournament And what can you tell
(41:37):
guys about the experience and how differentthat that game is. Yeah, Um,
all six c eight of those teams. Any one of those teams can
win any one of those games.Um. The things that I really took
away from that was, Man,it is a painful thought. I mean
(41:58):
I think about it every day.I thought about it every day since every
day March of twenty and twelve.Every single day, every single day I
thought about it. It's one ofthe hardest things I've ever went through,
and one of my biggest regrets inlife is that not winning that game.
I think we played one hundred times, we win ninety nine. I was
(42:20):
injured. I'd never missed a practiceor a game in my career. I
had a really bad quad injury thathappened in the semifinals at a big twelveth
championship and played. I played terrible. I mean I was one first seven,
one for eight from the field onlyat two points. I think we
lost by two. But the biggesttakeaway, and you know, moving forward
(42:43):
in my career was never be disappointedin your seating. Never. You know,
it's a it is a privilege toplan against the other tournament. It's
a privilege to get any seating onethrough sixteen. And we were really so
focused and we thought we should bea one seed. We knew that,
you know, we second the Thesecond weekend was in Saint Louis. There
(43:10):
was a I think there might havebeen a site in Kansas City, I
don't know. We were just sofocused on a one seed and we didn't
get it. We got a two. And I remember vividly us being disappointed
at that. And I'm not sayingthat played into the loss, but there's
no need for negativity or a lackof concentration or focus with anything. All
(43:34):
your focus and concentration and energy needsto be on on winning that game.
And yeah, and Kyle played great. I mean, obviously he's been a
seven year NBA player, He's Um, he was drafted by the Magic,
and he's played with the Knickson.I don't think there should be an NBA
player on any fifteen seeds. Sameyear Lehigh and c J. McCullum beat
(43:58):
Duke. So that's my other takeawayif I'm ever run a selection committee,
if theres an NBA player, they'renot going to be a fifteen seed.
Yes, and I know you knowthe Bracts as well as anyone. And
in fact, in that Hollyrow interviewwith you postgame, Uh, you major
your pitch. You referenced that thatone seed you made the pitch for for
one seed, Brent Musberger was lovingit. I can I can tell you
(44:20):
that um and uh Bob Knight hada lot of praise for you call him
that game as well. Last question, because I know you have to go
and you're busy guy, and I'vereally appreciated the conversation you. You play
in the NBA for the Pistons,which congratulations, you should always be congratulated
on reaching that remarkable um and thenspend time overseas and then you go on
(44:43):
to coach. I mean it's onlybeen a few years now, but under
Frank Haythe at Tulsa in two thyfifteen, your director player development, you
go two years as an assistant coachand then move on to Colorado now under
under Tad Boyle, and we're goingto be here in your name as the
head coach pretty soon. I know, I know Coach Bill doesn't want to
hear that, but but UM certainlyknow that there's going to be school's calling
(45:07):
for you. But I'm curious though, for for those people that aren't familiar
with with Dad Boyle, just whatare some of the things that you've learned
from him at Colorado. He istremendous um um passion and a better word
(45:27):
is conviction. His conviction and beliefthat here at the universe of Colorado,
we can win a national championship,we can be the best team in the
country, we can attract the absolutebest players. That that drives him and
everything he does. It helps himin recruiting. I mean, I've seen
(45:51):
him close a deal with the recruit, seen him talk to donors. I've
seen him us plan and prepare forgames. M why him coach in a
game? His conviction takes him along way. I mean, Tad Boyle
will really seriously cannot understand why youwould want to go to any of the
(46:14):
blue bloods around the country and notcome to Colorado. You know, that's
how much he believes in this place, and that's huge. I think whatever
job you're at, you should tryto find that in that place. If
you do, I think it's remarkableto things that can do for you as
(46:34):
a coach, as a leader ofyoung men, as a mentor, as
a recruiter, as an evaluator,as a scouter for opponents. His commitment
to this place really feels him andhe does a really good job well give
English. I usually close out thepodcast by by asking, you know what,
(47:00):
what kind of advice you could giveto young people that are aspiring to
be coaches or young coaches in theprofession. And I don't even have to
ask you that question because you sortof answered it throughout the whole thing.
And I just want to thank youfor the candor and I thank you for
the conversation. It's been really,really great to talk to you. Thank
(47:20):
you, Adam. I appreciate youhaving me huge thanks to Kim English.
Check them out on Twitter at EnglishScope twenty four. You can reach me
Adam Stanko on Twitter at Nay SmithLives. And you can get in touch
with this podcast on Twitter, Instagramand on Facebook. Forty year Coach,
We would love to hear from you. Also want to thank Sydney Smith,
Mark Eisenberg, my wife, CaitlinStanko, and Ari kay Ari edits the
(47:45):
podcast. Subscribe to this podcast oniTunes. I can't tell you that enough.
Do it right now, don't wasteany time, and while you're there,
rate and review us. It'll helpus out. Also, wouldn't hurt
if you could tell a friend whomight enjoy what we're doing. I'll do
it for this week. Catch younext time. M
This is the fourty Year Coach podcaston Madam Stango. Excited to bring on
our guests today, Kim English.But before we get to the Coach,
just want to remind you that we'dlove for you to rate and review us
on iTunes and subscribe. Do itright now, you don't want to miss
some of the incredible episodes we've gotcoming up. Also, if you don't
have an iPhone, we're available onSpreaker or on iHeartRadio and you can always
(00:37):
check us out at four to yearcoachdot com. Now into our guest,
Kim English is one of the fastestrising stars in the coaching community, and
before he became a coach, hewon a school record one hundred and seven
games in four years at Missouri,leading the team to four straight NCAA Tournament
appearances. He was also the mostOutstanding Player in the twenty twelve Big Twelve
(00:58):
Tournament and played in the NBA forthe Detroit Pistons. He's currently an assistant
coach at Colorado. In May,he was named as a National Association of
Basketball Coaches Under Armor thirty Under thirtyhonoree and is one of the first names
you'll hear when you ask those inthe college hoops community about which assistant coach
(01:18):
will be the next head coaching star. Kim English, Welcome to the forty
Year Coach podcast. Adam, thanksfor having me. I really appreciate it.
Yeah, Kim, I have totell you that you were one of
the first names that came up whenwe were discussing having guests for season one
of the forty Year Coach podcasts.So I'm really pumped to speak to you.
(01:40):
I want to take it back tothe early life. Born in Baltimore,
September twenty fourth, nineteen eighty eight. Early on, I've read that
you had stuttering problems, which isincredible to me because or to anyone that's
heard you give interviews or speeches.Can you tell me what what that time
(02:00):
in your life was like as achild and dealing with with some stuttering issues.
Yeah, well, I mean,I guess theoretically I still do,
UM have a stutter. Just asI've grown, I've developed um different strategies
and mechanisms that helped me cope betterand speak more clear UM influently. UM.
(02:24):
But yeah, I mean I wasI was a kid that had a
speech impediment, a stutter and Ihad speech pathologists growing up, but um,
Baltimore Public School Systems speech pathology departmentdoesn't lead the nation. I don't
know if you guessed that, Butso it really didn't help me much then.
(02:47):
UM, but as I got tocollege, m AS, I started
to do more research on my own. UM, through trial and error of
just doing doing any views or talkingto my team, UM, I developed
some strategies that that that helped mespeak a little better. UM. And
(03:07):
UM yeah, it's it's it's notcured by a long shot, but I
have a pretty good grasp on it, and I UM try to help young
kids with this stutter any any chanceI get. You know, it's really
remarkable when you talk to different peoplewho have found success in all walks of
(03:30):
life, UM, but certainly inbasketball. UM, you come to find
out that so many of them dealtwith adversity at a young age and found
a way to to overcome it.UM. You know, we we spoke
to Dick vital And and he toldus about you know, being being teased
as a as a boy, umand and bullied because of um, you
(03:53):
know, his eyesight issues. Andthere's so many there's countless stories. But
I'm interested it from your perspective.How did the game of basketball in the
relationships you had at that time,how did they impact what what you were
dealing with, and eventually what helpedyou overcome well? Growing up, Um,
(04:14):
before basketball ever became a thing inmy life, just playing outside,
like cracking jokes on one another orwho was the funniest or or fights or
like that was the game. Andfor a guy that had a girl name,
(04:36):
I mean, my name's Kim andstuttered like I was the butt of
a lot of jokes. You know, as a kid and kids can be
cruel, but it makes you tougher. I think, um, and yeah,
that was tough. I mean Iwouldn't. I mean, I know
bullying as a big emphasis and initiative, and I wouldn't call it bullying.
(04:56):
I just call it kids being kids. But truth is, I did of
a girl name and I stuttered,so it was a lot of laughter directed
at me. But when basketball becamean issue, it was something I kind
of gravitated to, worked hard at, and got good at pretty quickly.
I started playing at a late age, with thirteen. I started playing at
(05:19):
at thirteen, and I got goodquick. So the jokes kind of stopped
because if you were a kid,that was joking. But we get on
the court, you know, nowthe jokes on you because I'm better than
you. So basketball really helped withkind of the child's play, if you
(05:41):
will, of growing up. Basketballkind of lessen the jokes a little bit.
Well, I'm interested. You sayyou didn't play until you're thirteen,
but I've read that your your father, Kim English Senior, played at Baltimore
Community College. He's described himself asCharles Barkley with a jump shot. So
it's pretty pretty impressive if that's Ifthat's the case, But how do you
(06:04):
then not play ball till you're tillyou're thirteen? If your if your dad
is is a really good player.Yeah, he was a a good player,
um um, and um not shyabout telling me how good he was.
But he was all city growing up, and he played at Division two
Shaw University of North Carolina and transferredback to Baltimore. Um. Yeah,
(06:29):
I don't know, I don't know. I just I just I played everything
as a really young guy. Imean, baseball, football, track,
and then eventually basketball. How howmuch do you think that you know,
I just booked a Steve Kerr recentlyabout the idea that kids today, um,
you know, don't play different sportsand how that's had an impact.
(06:50):
How do you see it now,especially since you're recruiting a lot of guys
that only play one sport and haveonly played one sport since the time they're
six or seven years old. Yeah, I mean that there's a rare ocre
occasion of a high level player,at least at our level, that that
still plays multiple sports. Most ofthose guys usually are one sport guys.
(07:12):
But I love the versatility of akid growing up, giving a lot of
different things to try. I thinkany time you can put a young person.
Bob Hill has been here with usthe last a few days. He
recruited coach Boyle to Kansas, andobviously it was in the NBA for a
(07:33):
long time, but he said somethingthis morning that I thought was great.
He said, the essence of thegame of basketball, the thing that makes
it great, the reason we loveit unconditionally is teamwork. Teamwork is the
essence of basketball, I think,And because it's teamwork, I think any
time any opportunity or chance that youhave to be a part of a team,
(07:57):
you should do it. Um,there's something to learn from it.
There's something about the quest in pursuitof a championship. And I use a
lot of other sport analogies and mycoaching all the time. I mean,
you know, when I'm telling areon ball defenders to pressure the ball,
(08:20):
I use the analogy of you've neverseen a defensive line just stand up when
a quarterback hikes the ball, right, He's just not in the pocket with
no pressure. If he was,that would really make it hard on the
the dbs. And in basketball,that's your off ball defenders. So it's
(08:43):
so many analogies throughout sport in ourgame. Um, So I love multiple
sport guys, I love it.I love it you talk about teamwork.
One of the stories I've heard aboutyou is that when when you were coming
up and starting those early stages ofyour playing career, that you had the
chance to play in adult league gameswith some former NBA guys, you know,
(09:07):
famous Baltimore area guys, David Wingate, Muggsy Bogues. What can you
tell me about about that experience?It was them, It meant everything to
my career. I was talking totalking about that, yes, And I
think that's kind of been lost inour game right now, guys of trainers
(09:28):
and workout guys and whatever. Butyeah, I mean just playing with my
dad and his friends, guys thatyou wouldn't know, and some guys you
might know, um, Marty Johnsonand Sam Cassell and Mark Carter and Keith
Booth and Carmelo and Marcus Hatton andMuggsy, And that's where I learned to
play. And that's all we didwas play. We didn't I never had
(09:54):
a trainer growing up. I neverhad a workout guy. Yeah. I
shot on my own and I shotwith a friend and I played five on
five every day in the summertime.And that was huge in my development growing
up as a young player. Whatdid you learn about the game from those
guys? Well, Um, asa young player, you learn that winning
(10:20):
is important because now, well atthat time, that'd be twenty twenty five
people in the gym, so ifyou lose, you had to sit for
a long time. So you quicklylearn what you need to do to win.
And the only way you get pickedup on a team is if you
(10:41):
can do that, if you cando what it takes to win at a
high level, that's the only wayolder guys, pros are gonna pick you.
Um, and so yeah, man, I mean it taught you how
to win, taught you try tobe efficient. You don't want to disappoint
NBA plays if they allow you tobe on that team. So I think,
(11:03):
in its simplest form, it justjust just taught us how to play
the game. And I mean itwasn't just me. It was Malcolm Delaney
who was with the Hawks last year, Dante Green played maybe four years in
the league, Dwan Summers, alot of really good young players, all
playing with good older players, andit just has built a great bond of
(11:28):
Baltimore basketball players. Even now whenI go home, I Rodney Elliott,
it's another guy, some really goodgood players. Yeah, I mean the
legend of some of those old schooldumbar teams you hear about. Um,
I can't imagine what that scene waslike, but but I still am am
(11:50):
curious. You know, I thinkit was in the back page of a
slam magazine I had read once abouthow Kenny Smith said, you know,
he'd go back to the neighborhood andand try to explain to people how good
NBA players were, And he said, you know, you see Steve Kerr
on TV and you think you couldtake Steve Kurse, Steve Kurr will give
you fifty. Um uh, MuggsyBobs. What what was it like to
(12:13):
play with him? So Muggsy isreally close to my dad. Um.
They were almost best friends growing up, and so when when Muggsy was in
Charlotte they'd come and play the Bullets, we we'd drive down to DC and
watch him play, or if theywould have played Philly, we go to
(12:35):
a game and again just learning thegame from the best. UM. I
remember I was really young, maybetwelve or thirteen. Yeah, I was
thirteen or fourteen, and it wasjust I think Muggsy had a cookout at
his house, barbecue, and soI played, UM played him one on
(13:00):
one on his driveway court, andhe was kind of going through the motions
and I beat him. I beathim like six to one or something like
that. And I'm a kid,he's an NBA vet And I really thought
I had just beat Muggsy Bows andI was like talking about it and feeling
really good about it. And thenext day when we played pickup was at
(13:24):
a middle school called Deer Park,and Muggsy came and before we played five
and five, him and I playedone on one again. We checked it
up and he beat me twelve tonothing. I'll never forget it. And
it was a quick lesson and onethat he let me win. And yeah,
what you said about Kenney Smith,how good pros really are even here
(13:46):
and at Colorado. And when Iwas a Tulsa I mean I wasn't a
good NBA player by any by anystretch the imagination. I only played one
year. I didn't score a lotof points. Um, but I haven't
lost a game a one on oneand four years of coaching and it's not
even close. So just kind ofum expressing that to our guys, how
(14:09):
good you have to be to getthere and and more importantly stick there.
That's a that's a great lesson.I love it. I love it when
when when you progress on and yougo on to high school, UM,
Randallstown in Maryland. UM. Ithink the one thing as I as I
looked back at your at your careeris just the winning. I mean winning
(14:31):
is something that you know, uh, was part of your makeup and over
and over again you look back atyour career and all you did was win,
and UM, when state championships atat Randallstown in Maryland, and when
you finish up your time there,UM, you moved on to Notre Dame
Prep in Massachusetts and spent a yearat the prep school. UM. You
(14:54):
guys go to the semi finals theNational Prep School Invitational. Your team mv
UM. But I'm curious what broughtupon your decision to go to a prep
school after finishing up high school.UM. I didn't have a good enough
SAT score UM to qualify UM throughthe NCAA clearinghouse at the time, So
(15:16):
I needed that extra year prep tocontinue to try to work on my test
score and I did that UM andeventually got the score I needed. But
UM, in regards to winning,I think it is the precipice of it
is back to those games, Likeit was the first lesson I learned if
you UM finish them. What Imean, it was sure not not shooting,
(15:39):
it wasn't ball handling. It wasit was winning. It was the
most important thing. It was UM, what took the most pride in UM.
And yeah, like I didn't reallythink about much else in the game
UM. And so yeah, wedid at high school and obviously had really
good teammates along the way, UMtwo other Division one guys at Randallstown and
(16:06):
a slew of Division one of playersin prep school and then even in college.
And in college, I think itwas kind of a culture shift because
when we committed to Missouri, theydidn't do a lot of winning. We
committed to a sixteen and sixteen teamwith a bunch of guys that had never
been in the NCAA tournament. AndI remember, on my visit to Missouri
(16:30):
got done playing pickup and a bunchof the players they were all seniors,
so I knew they were leaving,they were all graduating and UM. But
after pickup they were in a lockerroom and the guys were talking about you
know who outplayed who, or rememberthis play I did this to you,
or I dunked on you or Imade you fall. And I just I
(16:52):
just thought that was such a smallmindset of focus and on a level of
basketball as high as the Big twelve. And I wouldn't have went to Missouri
if those guys were sophomores or juniors. Those guys were seniors, and the
sophomores and the juniors or the juniorswere Demari Carroll and Matt Lawrence and Leo
(17:15):
Lyons some guys that kind of Ithought had some good substance about themselves.
And when we got there as freshman, I made a major emphasis after we
got done played pickup. We allthis was before the time where we had
the your coaches could have come attackwith you in the off season, so
you were on your own. Itwas weights and it was pickup was everything.
(17:38):
And after we got done our sevengame pickup series that we played every
day, five days a week,the conversation around the water cooler in the
locker room was about who won thatseven game series? That was it.
Who won the seven game series?And if your team wasn't wasn't a winner,
(17:59):
then then you should feel bad aboutyourself. If your team did win,
you should feel really good about yourself. So I thought that was a
really big paradigm shift in the cultureat Missouri when we got there, and
DeMar was a big part of it. I mean, I think he was
was sick of losing. And ourfreshman class, me and Marcus Demon and
(18:22):
Lawrence Bowers, we had never lostum. So it was a good marriage
of guys that were sick of losingand some new guys that had never lost,
and it was great. We werethirty one and seven. We won
the Big twelve tournament, we wentto the Elite eight, we lost to
Yukon and the the the the regionalfinal. So um yeah, And I've
(18:48):
tried to bring that mindset everywhere I'vebeen as a coach thus far. Um
beat at Tulsa and now here atColorado and Kim. What's interesting is we
hear that from guys. Sometimes wehear about the idea of that the winning
mentality, and I think, um, the competitive side is really interesting,
(19:15):
specifically on a like game to gamebasis. And I'm even talking and pick
up for young players out there.You know, what does this sounds ridiculous
as a question, but I stillthink it never really gets specifically answered.
What does winning look like? Imean in the makeup of it? What
are the plays that that makeup winning? What does winning look like? Well,
(19:41):
um, that's a great question.Um, I think it could be
answered simple as um, the focusto win the possession, Like that's it.
If your focus is just to geta stop on this defensive but this
(20:03):
defensive possession, and you put allyour focus, all your power and strength
and ability into getting a stop onthis possession. That's what winning looks like.
If on offense, it's taking careof the ball, it's delivering perfect
passes, it's thinking of your teammatesmore than yourself with the focus to get
(20:30):
the best shot possible. I thinkthat's what winning looks like. It's the
it's it's not the scoreboard at theend of the game, it's the battles
won. If I'm quantifying possessions tobattles, that's what winning looks like.
(20:52):
Villanova. I mean, I studywinners at all levels in our game,
in different sports, different coaches.And I have a friend, Matt for
Schiller, who's on staff at ata Villanova, and I just pick his
brain constantly on what they emphasize anddo. And their word is attitude.
(21:15):
That's their team slogan. You're havinga great attitude. And they chart what
they call attitudes statistics and this chargesdeflections, good shot contest, block shots,
offensive rebounds, tap backs, quickoutlet passes after rebounds and Florida's and
(21:37):
they put that up in the lockerroom and they chart it. So guys
at this level are really competitive.So if you see you're in the middle
of the pack, or you're winningor you're trailing. You have guys want
to want to see their name getup on that chart, get higher on
that chart. And now you havea team full of compact editors competing to
(22:02):
see who can contest the most shots, who can get the most offensive rebounds,
who can outlet the ball quickly onon rebound, who who's leading a
team? It dives on the floor, who's leading a team at charges?
That's maybe a better answer into whatgoes into winning those things. I love
(22:22):
that. I love that, andlook you did. You were able to
answer something I thought would be somewhatdifficult to quantify maybe, but I think
it was interesting. Is when youwere at Missouri. Obviously you know you
did, as I mentioned, aton of winning. You talk about it.
I mean that that freshman year,going to the Elite eight. Sophomore
year, you guys win twenty threegames. Junior you win twenty three games.
(22:47):
But something else that I found interestingin researching you, and that was
to read about some of the strugglesyou had with your confidence your junior year,
and it was you're playing for MikeAnderson. It's really your mark to
me to be reading about this becauseyou know from Afar people that have seen
you, I think think Kim English, this confident player that always had exudes
(23:11):
confidence and does all the little thingsto win as you as you just described
that, the Villanova does as well. Frank Haithe said that when he was
going back and looking at tape,he would be your coach your senior year.
But but when he went back andstarted to look at your tape from
your junior year, he described itsaying he didn't shoot the ball well because
he was trying so hard. Thenhe lost confidence and it just kept mounting
and mounting for him. What wasthat period of your career? Like,
(23:36):
Yeah, we kind of lost ourway a little bit as a program,
and it was a and we tookenough talent too, and we still played
hard and we still wanted to Wehad a really good non conference, We
had a lot of really good wins, but we we faltered in league play.
I think we were five hundred andBig twelve and I think we ended
up being a last team in thetournament. But um we um. We
(24:02):
had a team full of really talentedplayers. And when you give a team
freedom sometimes it's not a good thingbecause you know, if your freedom.
Technically I can I can always makea play when I catch the ball,
(24:23):
like, yeah, technically I couldgo score. And we kind of lost
our way of playing for and witheach other. Um, And that's the
team answer as to why we andI and that's why we struggled. I
struggled because I started to get onNBA draft boards as a sophomore draft Express
(24:45):
or draft dot Net, whatever itmay be, and I started kind of
to lose my m DNA of onlyfocusing on winning, and I really started
to care about that stuff and worryabout that stuff and just pure immaturity,
not under not really focusing on orunderstanding that that is so far out of
(25:10):
my control in the current state ofwhat we're doing trying to win this game.
And so yeah, focusing on thewrong stuff hurt me. Us.
Not playing to our best ability hurtme a little bit. And to other
people's standards, that would have beena great season. We made it to
(25:33):
the NCLA Tournament. We lost ina first round game to a really good
Cincinnati team, and but to ourstandards, that wasn't the way we played.
And we we fixed that that thatoffseason, we took a deep look
at ourselves individually as a team.Coach eighth came and did wonders for our
team. Well, quite a bitto unpack there, right. I appreciate
(25:57):
your honesty in terms of, youknow, recognizing that you know, the
draft sort of was looming, andthinking about you know, yourself as an
individual player rather rather than the team. And I'm curious about that, you
know, with with the young playersmight be listening, or even for coaches,
I'm curious now as a head coachor as a coach UM at the
(26:21):
Division one level, UM, howmuch do you recognize it in in guys,
maybe not even on your own team, but on other teams? And
and how how can you address itas a guy who went through it.
Yeah, it's real. It's atthis level, it's real, and it's
something I think you have to constantlyaddress and educate your your players, your
best players on UM and it hitsall the time. I mean I talk
(26:44):
to one of our players, McKinleywright about it all the time. And
now it's even more because it's socialmedia induced. It might not be a
draft board, it might just beconstant adulation and praise and clicks on on
social media and UM, so justtrying to keep them focused on the present
(27:06):
and understand that that's the most importantthing. You can kind of help them
lose focus in the unimportant if youhave them insanely focused on the daily,
on the process. So with McKinley, it's we practice at seven thirty every
morning here at Colorado seven thirty am. We're on the floor. McKinley,
(27:30):
Wright, Shane Gatling, and TylerBay are on the court of six forty
five every morning going through individual workouts. They watch film after practice, constantly
sending those guys articles about some ofthe best players in the world, talking
about their humility, their focus,their their their their commitment to the daily,
(27:56):
to the process, and any chanceI get, um, I just
try to show our guys how thebest players in the world behave on social
media. Like Steph Carey is notretweeting every time someone says something good about
him. M Jalen Brunson, whograduated from villan Ovan three years and was
a first round draft pick, isnot talking about how good he is on
(28:19):
social media, you know. So, So any chance I get to educate
those guys, it could, itcan. I may be wrong. I
don't know. I just feel likeconsistent, constant reminders is the best way
(28:40):
to go in that regard as opposedto keeping your team, keeping your best
players focused on the task, andthat's one getting them to be better players,
and two is winning the next game. Or probably flip those deals.
One is winning the next game,and two then becoming better players. But
I think those things go hand inhand. I think them becoming better players
(29:03):
helps you win the next game well. And what's fascinating about all that is
there has to be an authentic natureto who you are as a coach.
Because you take a guy like McKinleywriting for those that haven't seen him play
or haven't seen him play a lot. I mean, I think as as
good of a league guard as thereisn't in the country. And obviously it's
(29:26):
future super bright. And I hateto be counter to what you just said
in terms of the humility, butobviously no, that's fine. So that's
the thing that I tell him isother people are going to talk about you,
and it feels good. As aplayer, it feels good to have
other people tell you how good youare. But like, you don't have
to you don't have to be ayou don't have to promote yourself, right,
(29:52):
right, but go ahead, butI was I was just gonna say,
but as the balance though for acoach and speaks to, you know,
the respect that your players have foryou, the balance of a coach
because to say, hey, don'tbuy into that when you know that there's
professional basketball in you know, andyeah, in his future. I mean,
(30:12):
if you're not genuine message, soyou can't be faked with it,
right, So, so you can'tbe fake with it, like it's it's
it's it's it's no sugarcoating players havea PhD and knowing if you're really not.
So it's like with McKinley or let'sjust let's just use him as an
(30:33):
example. I'm like, don't beupset about not getting invited to a Nike
Skills Academy over the summer, orso what about the Bob Kuzy watch list?
Like what does that really mean?Like I'll straight tell him, Like
Damian Lillard got one hundred and twentysix million, what would you rather have?
(30:56):
Would you rather be invited to theNike Skills of Out of Me or
would you rather be on the preseasonBob Kozy list or would you rather have
one hundred and twenty six million dollarsand set in six years. So I'm
like, only focus on like,focus on that, Like like what does
(31:17):
a watch list mean? What doesa camp invite me? Just focus on
becoming the absolute best player you canbe, focus on winning as many games
as you can possibly win, andthen all the other stuff will just happen.
And so yeah, you're right.So it's like, I don't not
talk about it. I mean,it's real. I mean, I mean,
(31:41):
I'll if I'm a player that doesn'tplay well and i had an honest
talk with an NBA scout after thegame, I'll tell him, I'll say,
man, he says he wants tosee you guard your position better.
Like that. That's real conversations yougotta have with guys. That's really interesting.
(32:04):
Yeah, and again I think itspeaks to that authenticity that you have.
And Um, like you said thatplayers will see right through it every
time. UM as a player whenyou know touched on it. Frank Haye
takes over from Mike Anderson in twothousand eleven. He um Anderson leaves in
(32:25):
March and Haye takes over in April. It's pretty wild. I mean,
that's going into your senior year.You you talked about the team losing its
way, you talked about you asan individual. You know, it was
tumultuous times. Anderson leaves, herecomes a new head coach. What was
that transition like for you personally?Well, I was fortunate enough I knew
(32:52):
new coach. Hey, he recruitedme at Miami I was actually going to
commit to him at Miami UM onmy visit, but my visit was like
the weekend after day Kuan Jones,and day Kuan Jones committed before I could,
So I knew coach and that kindof helped as far as my relationship
with him. The rest of ourguys didn't, so he kind of had
(33:15):
to earn their respect. But he'sa big He's had a huge impact on
my coaching career, mostly from astandpoint of authenticity with the players. It's
so important you have to live inthe world of the truth. Kevin Eastman
(33:36):
las to say, live in theworld of the truth, and the only
way you can be truthful with playersis if they know you love him.
And he did a great job ofestablishing his relationship with us early, and
we knew he loved us, andhe could coach us as hard as he
wanted to, He could be asreal with us as he wanted to.
(33:59):
He could say, Kimp Man,you're not a good ball handler. Just
shoot the ball. I'd rather youshoot the ball than try to dribble it.
And I'm like, all right,just started shooting the ball. And
so he did a great job ofthat. And then and then system wise,
I think he's one of the bestoffensive coaches in the country. He
(34:22):
implemented a four our one and spread, pick and row offense that year that
really served us well and really didwell in our league. The Big twelve
was big physical league. We playedfour guards, we spread the floor out
and had a lot of success.According to Kim Palm, it was the
(34:44):
fifth best offense since Kim Palm hasbeen tracking this stuff and adjusted offensive numbers.
So yeah, he was a phenomenalcoach. It's ridiculous, No,
I want to get to that fourguard systems that you guys were playing at
the time. But but you hiton something that I'm really curious about.
(35:04):
You said that when Frank Keith camein, he established that relationship, established
that love. How did he dothat part through walking a class with you?
On campus and just talking talking toyou on the phone late at night,
(35:25):
having you over for dinner at hishouse, meeting his family. He
did something for me that was huge. And I'd always been a pretty good
shooter, but he made me agreat shooter. He made our film guy
at the time, Brian Tibaldi,who was down an Assistan at Cleveland State,
(35:46):
one of my best friends. Brianclipped up every miss I had from
the season before, and I justsit there and Coach Hay's office and watch
every one of my misshots. Itwas one of the hardest basketball things I've
ever had to do. Sit thereand watch a hundred miss jump shots or
whatever it may be, a drive, a terrible shot, you know,
(36:09):
a contested look. And we critiquedhim. We talked about every miss.
Why do you think that didn't goin? It wasn't a good shot.
Why didn't think I didn't go in? I faded away? Well, I
don't think that go in. Iwasn't shot ready. Why didn't that go
in? My balance was really bad. So after we sat down and unpacked
(36:30):
all of that, we watched everymake, every make and why I did
that go in? I had reallygood balance? Why did that go in.
It was a really good shot.The extra pass, why did that
go in? It was the rightplay. And through this list we compiled,
there was commonalities with the misses andthere were commonalities with the makes.
(36:55):
And as we worked that spring insummer, it was stopped doing the things
you did when you missed and startdoing the things you did when you made
shots. And I went from meI think I was thirty nine percent of
the freshman, thirty seven of thesophomore, thirty six of the junior from
three, and I was forty sevenpercent from three as a senior. And
(37:17):
it was one of the most profoundthings I've ever done as a basketball player
in breaking down someone's game. That'samazing. Have you taken any players through
the same exercise. I've done itonce. I've done it once. I
did it with the kid at Tulsa, James James Woodard. What's interesting too
about that team. You guys endup going thirty and five your senior year,
(37:42):
Lawrence Bowers tears his Aclkadeem Green transfers. You guys had two post players,
seven total scholarship players, and tothen end up with as you just
describe some of the best offense thatwe've seen in college basketball. Kim Palm's
numbers back that up. UM schoolrecord twenty seven regular season wins. You
guys win the Big Twelve Tournament,you're named Big Twelve Tournament Most Outstanding Player.
(38:07):
UM. The confidence level you wereplaying with and the style that you
played with, how much were thosesort of correlated? Especially since you had
to play even though you were playingoffensively as a guard, you're playing that
four out system, you still hadto guard four men on the other end,
UM, and you're guarding some somepost players UM every night. So
(38:30):
how much how much did that systemwork for you? And and and get
your confidence level up? UM?Well it's UM. Playing a guard at
the four in college basket was oneof the best mismatches in college basketball.
UM. The only thing better thanthat is playing a four at the five.
UM. Obviously, the ability tospace the flour helps. I mean,
(38:52):
I was being a shooting guard.I was drafted an NBA to play
a shooting guard, and I wasbeing guarded by college four men. So
from an offensive standpoint, is reallyeasy for me to get shots, to
create space for us to drive closeoutsto UM attack mismatches defensively, Um,
it's really just playing post defense beforethe ball is in it and boxing out.
(39:17):
Um. That's really it. Ifa college team thinks they're going to
exploit a a big guard mismatch byposting up the guard, they're mistaken.
One, college players aren't that goodm comparedly speaking to two NBA foremen,
and and two it's probably not whatyou want to do offensively is to play
(39:39):
post isolation offense all night. Um. So if you have a guy that
can work hard, UM, playgood defense off the ball, front the
post so that he doesn't have toget the ball in there, and secondly
box out U you you you findout that the mismatches is more oftentimes in
(40:07):
your favor than it is the opponentswhen you go small in college basketball.
I'm curious to two things your senioryear. One that after you win the
Big twelve championship, you told Hollyrowof ESPN that that you had spoken to
the team before the championship game.Do you remember that speech what you said
(40:27):
to the team, Yeah, yeah, yeah, that we had a great
opportunity and in life, that's allyou can ever ask for as an opportunity.
And and if you're prepared. Ifyou're prepared, pressure really doesn't mean
much. And I think that's whatI talked about seven years ago. Yes,
(40:53):
yeah, no, kid, Um, I also know what it must
have been. The one of themost painful loss of your career was in
the NCAA Tournament as a two seed. You guys, many many people thought
you'd go to at least the finalfour and you'd lose to Norfolk State in
the first round. Although what peopledidn't know and maybe you've forgotten since then,
was the kylo Quinn later went onto play for the Knicks was on
(41:15):
that Norfolk State team probably should havenever been a fifteen seed, but that's
how those things go. I'm curiousthough, having experienced that and then moving
on as as a coach after afterthe NBA career, Um, what have
you learned from from that loss inthe NCAA Tournament And what can you tell
(41:37):
guys about the experience and how differentthat that game is. Yeah, Um,
all six c eight of those teams. Any one of those teams can
win any one of those games.Um. The things that I really took
away from that was, Man,it is a painful thought. I mean
(41:58):
I think about it every day.I thought about it every day since every
day March of twenty and twelve.Every single day, every single day I
thought about it. It's one ofthe hardest things I've ever went through,
and one of my biggest regrets inlife is that not winning that game.
I think we played one hundred times, we win ninety nine. I was
(42:20):
injured. I'd never missed a practiceor a game in my career. I
had a really bad quad injury thathappened in the semifinals at a big twelveth
championship and played. I played terrible. I mean I was one first seven,
one for eight from the field onlyat two points. I think we
lost by two. But the biggesttakeaway, and you know, moving forward
(42:43):
in my career was never be disappointedin your seating. Never. You know,
it's a it is a privilege toplan against the other tournament. It's
a privilege to get any seating onethrough sixteen. And we were really so
focused and we thought we should bea one seed. We knew that,
you know, we second the Thesecond weekend was in Saint Louis. There
(43:10):
was a I think there might havebeen a site in Kansas City, I
don't know. We were just sofocused on a one seed and we didn't
get it. We got a two. And I remember vividly us being disappointed
at that. And I'm not sayingthat played into the loss, but there's
no need for negativity or a lackof concentration or focus with anything. All
(43:34):
your focus and concentration and energy needsto be on on winning that game.
And yeah, and Kyle played great. I mean, obviously he's been a
seven year NBA player, He's Um, he was drafted by the Magic,
and he's played with the Knickson.I don't think there should be an NBA
player on any fifteen seeds. Sameyear Lehigh and c J. McCullum beat
(43:58):
Duke. So that's my other takeawayif I'm ever run a selection committee,
if theres an NBA player, they'renot going to be a fifteen seed.
Yes, and I know you knowthe Bracts as well as anyone. And
in fact, in that Hollyrow interviewwith you postgame, Uh, you major
your pitch. You referenced that thatone seed you made the pitch for for
one seed, Brent Musberger was lovingit. I can I can tell you
(44:20):
that um and uh Bob Knight hada lot of praise for you call him
that game as well. Last question, because I know you have to go
and you're busy guy, and I'vereally appreciated the conversation you. You play
in the NBA for the Pistons,which congratulations, you should always be congratulated
on reaching that remarkable um and thenspend time overseas and then you go on
(44:43):
to coach. I mean it's onlybeen a few years now, but under
Frank Haythe at Tulsa in two thyfifteen, your director player development, you
go two years as an assistant coachand then move on to Colorado now under
under Tad Boyle, and we're goingto be here in your name as the
head coach pretty soon. I know, I know Coach Bill doesn't want to
hear that, but but UM certainlyknow that there's going to be school's calling
(45:07):
for you. But I'm curious though, for for those people that aren't familiar
with with Dad Boyle, just whatare some of the things that you've learned
from him at Colorado. He istremendous um um passion and a better word
(45:27):
is conviction. His conviction and beliefthat here at the universe of Colorado,
we can win a national championship,we can be the best team in the
country, we can attract the absolutebest players. That that drives him and
everything he does. It helps himin recruiting. I mean, I've seen
(45:51):
him close a deal with the recruit, seen him talk to donors. I've
seen him us plan and prepare forgames. M why him coach in a
game? His conviction takes him along way. I mean, Tad Boyle
will really seriously cannot understand why youwould want to go to any of the
(46:14):
blue bloods around the country and notcome to Colorado. You know, that's
how much he believes in this place, and that's huge. I think whatever
job you're at, you should tryto find that in that place. If
you do, I think it's remarkableto things that can do for you as
(46:34):
a coach, as a leader ofyoung men, as a mentor, as
a recruiter, as an evaluator,as a scouter for opponents. His commitment
to this place really feels him andhe does a really good job well give
English. I usually close out thepodcast by by asking, you know what,
(47:00):
what kind of advice you could giveto young people that are aspiring to
be coaches or young coaches in theprofession. And I don't even have to
ask you that question because you sortof answered it throughout the whole thing.
And I just want to thank youfor the candor and I thank you for
the conversation. It's been really,really great to talk to you. Thank
(47:20):
you, Adam. I appreciate youhaving me huge thanks to Kim English.
Check them out on Twitter at EnglishScope twenty four. You can reach me
Adam Stanko on Twitter at Nay SmithLives. And you can get in touch
with this podcast on Twitter, Instagramand on Facebook. Forty year Coach,
We would love to hear from you. Also want to thank Sydney Smith,
Mark Eisenberg, my wife, CaitlinStanko, and Ari kay Ari edits the
(47:45):
podcast. Subscribe to this podcast oniTunes. I can't tell you that enough.
Do it right now, don't wasteany time, and while you're there,
rate and review us. It'll helpus out. Also, wouldn't hurt
if you could tell a friend whomight enjoy what we're doing. I'll do
it for this week. Catch younext time. M
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