February 8, 2023 • 31 mins
We chat with Assistant GM of Columbus Crew and GM of Columbus Crew II, Corey Wray to discuss the Crew 2 winning the MLS NEXT Pro Cup. We also discuss the rise of soccer in Canada, the pursuit of the next great Canadian star and how the current Canadian players have adapted to playing overseas.
Have you joined Patreon? Get ad-free episodes and access to discord: https://www.patreon.com/afootballpodcast
Follow @AFootballPod on Twitter! While you're there say hello to @DesaiDevang, @EmpireGass and @SeanKeay.
If you enjoyed today’s show, please rate A Football Podcast 5-Stars on Apple Podcasts. See you again next week for an all new AFP.
Have you joined Patreon? Get ad-free episodes and access to discord: https://www.patreon.com/afootballpodcast
Follow @AFootballPod on Twitter! While you're there say hello to @DesaiDevang, @EmpireGass and @SeanKeay.
If you enjoyed today’s show, please rate A Football Podcast 5-Stars on Apple Podcasts. See you again next week for an all new AFP.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:22):
Hello and welcome everybody to AFP.I am David Goss, joined by a
usual suspect in Sean k. Wehave a special conversation coming with the general
manager of the first ever MLS NextPro Cup champion, Cory Ray. Sean
knows him from his TFC days.I've known him for years from the youth
soccer and development scene around North America. He came from Toronto to Columbus and
(00:46):
he won the first ever title overwhelmingly. His team led the league in both
goals scored and least goals conceded throughwe'll talk to Cory Ray about that in
just a moment, the general managerof Crew two as well as the assistant
general manager of Columbus Crew. Allright, let's get into our interview now
with maybe the most special guest wehave ever had on this show, a
(01:10):
good friend of all of us hereat AFP. He is the assistant general
manager of Columbus Crew and he isthe general manager of Columbus Crew. To
Corey, thanks for joining us.Thank you guys very much for having me.
Very excited to be here. SoCorey, let's start with congrats.
(01:30):
You're the first ever champions of MLSNext pro, How does championship feel on
this fine morning? Thankfully? Interviewson Tuesday. I think on Sunday morning
it was stealing a little bit roughand then faded to Monday. But I
feel much better after the celebrations onSaturday, so it was a good night.
(01:55):
You've won a couple titles for anyonewho doesn't know. Former front office
member Toronto FC, long time memberof Toronto CE, then moved to Columbus
one an MLS Cup there and nowm here winning MLS next pro. Do
you have any tips levels of expertisethat you've learned on what you know what
to do after you win. Ithink I gave it to myself on Saturday
(02:19):
was to enjoy enjoy it, right, I think, you know, despite
some of the successes that certainly I'vehad, and you know there's there's been
now a few, I almost wenthome and just lede on my couch and
it's myself. You know that youshouldn't take these things for granted by any
means, and it's important to geteverybody together to appreciate, you know,
(02:43):
the the experience. And I thinkI listened to myself regretfully. So the
next day U and I dove rightinto it head first, and I had
a really good time with a lotof the staff and you know, made
sure everybody had a really good night. And I think that's what it's all
about, to reflect, you know, all the hard work and the times
we had this year. I mean, there was nothing and then there was
(03:06):
a cup, so it happened prettyquickly. But that takes a lot of
effort and dedication and hard work,and so it's just I think it's right
to really get everyone together and havea great night out of it. That
we definitely did. Yeah, ofcore, you'd sort of mentioned that obviously
like last time this year there wasn'treally this and going into sort of this
(03:28):
year at last Next Pro, whatwas sort of your vision in regards to
what the league was going to belike and sort of then now at the
end, looking back over the firstyear, was it everything that you thought
it was going to be? Wherewere there changes? I know it's a
loaded question, but like from whereyou were a year ago looking at MLS
Next Pro to where you are today, was it the full experience? For
(03:50):
sure? There's a couple of thingsthat maybe people didn't know. But originally,
you know, when I came here, we had discussions about where this
teams are even going to fit.At the time, there wasn't even an
MLS option, and so we werelooking, you know in USL where we
had previous experience with Toronto C twoand tried to figure things out in that
(04:12):
way. And because of the pandemic, they really pushed things back a little
bit, and so it definitely hada lot of time to reflect on,
you know, what it could looklike, and of course being in a
league that helps when you're planning aroster. And so when it did become
apparent that we were able to putsomething together, we kind of came together
(04:32):
with a number of teams that didn'thave a second team last year, and
we ran a pilot program and thatpilot program just gave us friendlies against you
know, New York City, OrlandoCity, we played Philadelphia at Union,
we played Chicago Fire, and wewere able to see what we had internally
(04:53):
in a couple of different phases.The first was with our collegiate efforts,
and the Columbus crew is historically anda number of kids to college, and
so there was a ton of kidsout there in that ecosystem that I was
not familiar with and that allowed usto evaluate that group of players. And
then what we did is we alsohad our best academy kids in at the
(05:14):
time from our nineteens, and weput them together to see the different levels.
And then finally we ran the programas just an academy only kind of
option with maybe a couple of trialistsand see what that looked like. And
so we're able to really test thatwhere we stood, and frankly, we
found that there was a really bigneed for more talent underneath in that group.
(05:36):
Either the group was too young andnot ready for the level, or
we were just missing you know,a lot of different profiles and opportunities for
guys to do well. Is verydifferent than in Toronto, where we were
able to build a group out ofthe local talent and definitely take our links
but provide them with you know,we had so many different profiles you could
(05:58):
build a team over the span ofyou know, a few years. Well,
here you might have a few reallygood players and then the supporting group
definitely wasn't going to be able tocompete. I think one of our last
couple of games we could the PhiladelphiaUnion, we lost six nothing. I
think at that time Laurent he thoughthe thought he was going to get fired
before he even got hired, andhe said, no, this is perfect.
(06:20):
This gives us every opportunity to evaluatewhere we're at. We see where
guys are, and we know thatthe Philadelphia Union are, you know,
the standard in terms of quality whenit comes to their academy and what they
do underneath with their pathway, andso it give us a really good idea
of what we could be if wego out and recruit the right level of
talent. And so that's kind ofwhere it ended with that phase, and
(06:45):
then what we expected. I thinkwhat changed quite a bit. Even leading
into the first week, we didn'treally know a whole lot about how each
group was preparing. I had anumber of conversations with everyone, but I
think the league caught up quickly enoughto some of the challenges in terms of
staffing, and obviously the people thatwere supporting the league itself was all being
(07:08):
hired at the same time that wewere building a team. So there were
some early bumps, but after thatI felt like it really grew into a
really strong competition, and I thinkany teams that you know, underestimated what
some of the quality of the teamswould be quickly tried to remedy that and
(07:28):
tried to assign some guys in thesummer and provide us with some really good
games to end a year. Soit of course corrected pretty quickly. You've
already leaned into a few of thetopics who want to dig into you with
especially the Canadian presence on this team. But sure you men, you mentioned
running TFC two. I know thatwas league on Ontario for some time,
but USL for a lot of timebefore we get to this specific to you
(07:53):
don't want to ask about the twoleagues? What are the differences? And
I think there was some fear Iknow from some people to about you know,
USL, you go and play theNew Mexico is the Louisvilles of the
world, senior teams that have seniorexperienced players as well as those atmospheres,
and there's a worry about what MLSnext pro will be up against that in
(08:13):
terms of for development. And soI'm just curious what you thought of this
year and sort of the differences,advantages or disadvantages of this setup now for
the development pipeline here in North America, yeah, I think Look, we
were in the early days of thetransition of the USLU in the in the
Championship, and it was certainly notwhat it is now. And so you
(08:35):
know, understanding that they've then builtoff of you know, the league partnership
with MLS, and they've grown withgreat ownership groups and built fan bases and
they put a ton behind their youknow, sales and marketing. So I
wasn't expecting us to be at thatlevel by any means in the first year
of something that was just you know, launching. So the differences are clear.
(08:58):
You know, you aren't able tocome up against as many of those
teams, and certainly there is afan base that is probably just starting out
in terms of understanding what these teamsare all about. But the potential is
there. So for a couple ofyears, if you're missing that, okay,
(09:18):
that's that's not great. But Ialso wouldn't say that every player would
be necessarily only playing in next proover the course of the next few years
in their pathway. And I don'tsee why there isn't an opportunity to throw
a player into the USL Championship ifthere's a really good fan base or maybe
an older group that they can benefitfrom or that someone's blocked in terms of
(09:39):
their pathway here. So it's aboutusing each each level. But I do
understand the arguments of not being ableto play against some of those older teams.
But I also it depends on thelevel of resistance that the players need
in your group, and well,that would be great for us. It's
certainly I felt like we had enough. I guess, well, maybe we
(10:01):
didn't have enough because we did sowell, But there were certainly games that
provided us with challenges and and therewas rosters week in week out that change
because of you know, the hometeam putting down some really talented play.
I mean the first game we played, you know, inter Miami had Emerson
car of us like to shreds,and that was a two million plus investment,
(10:26):
and so you're definitely not getting thatin USL. And so there was
players that you know, have reallygood um MLS experience or young players that
needed, you know, some moreconsistency that we're playing against that. On
the flip side, I definitely wouldnever have seen that in USL against some
of these other teams. So there'sdefinitely give or take. We never expected
(10:46):
it to be like the USL Championship, but we did want to make sure
that the games were, you know, of a professional nature, provided our
guys with opportunities to showcase themselves andput them in situations to learn, and
I gotta say we definitely got thatout of this season. Keeping up with
(11:13):
sort of that David mentioned, likethe Canadian conversation, I think something that
made a bit of waves earlier inthe season was your guys signing Mofarsi to
a deal and sort of having thefans have that conversation of is is that
the pathway that that most players aregoing to go? And how is it
going to continue? What is itabout this Canadian Premier League that like,
(11:39):
do you feel like you guys werethe only one sort of not watching but
like scouting and looking to see thatas as an opportunity for next pro or
do you think or is there alot of people keeping their eye on it
from the developmental side. I thinkclearly your Vancouver as Muchels and Torontos are
are pretty aware of it. There'sbeen a couple USL teams that have moved
(12:01):
a player or two over the lastcouple of years, but certainly. I
don't know about the overall in depthscouting that's going on with some of the
other USL teams. I don't knowwhy. You know, as a Canadian
and someone who's very familiar with it, the quality is great and in the
structure and the games they get.So should there be more people looking at
(12:24):
it? Of course, and that'sup to them now they alloscate their scouting
resources. But for me, itwas really clear to see that there's players
who've been given an opportunity, youknow, to compete in a team that
you know, has to win eachweek and has to perform in front of
you know, crowds and have thingson the line that can benefit from then
(12:46):
moving from there to here in termsof everything else right behind the scenes,
what does the training look like,the facilities and nutrition and the sports performance
like, that's the stuff that we'reable to put around these guys that maybe
they don't have the resources in theCPL to do, you know, consistently
for a number of reasons, butthey do get the game side of there.
(13:09):
So we felt like we could putyou know, someone like Mo in
this situation, expose them to firstteam trainings, give them the necessary additional
resources and then let them fly.And I think that was the sales pitch
from mem. It was difficult againbecause there was no league. So I
was like, forget, forget theleague, like get everything else. We
(13:31):
have yere right, like, we'regoing to surround you with everyone else and
and and we'll see what the leaguelooks like. But the games what we
spoke to most of the guys,the games are like the icing on the
top of your development cake and therest of it behind you. We're not
looking game by game for those benefits. We're looking, you know, month
(13:52):
by month and by the end ofthe year, where do you stand and
and so that was kind of adifferent approach for him. We're going to
try to make you better and certainareas and we're going to build off for
that. So that's more individualized,and I think that for someone you know,
knowing you're going to put something intothat player. And definitely full credit
to Tommy and those guys at Calvary. They took him and made him a
(14:15):
Young Player of the Year, butthere was a little bit more that could
even go deeper into what more neededwhere he's not necessarily, you know,
just preparing for games and trying towin each week. We're clearly trying to
do well and stick to the process, but we could really focus on a
little bit more for him and givehim the opportunity to showcase himself. So
again, the player, Yeah,there's Canadians and there's Americans, and there's
(14:37):
players. We're looking for good playerswith potential, and it just so happens
that maybe I have a bit morecomfort in that market, but that those
are definitely good players and they're beinggiven opportunities. So the question would be
why wouldn't we look there, Andso that's maybe a little bit different for
us than other teams. But also, you know, having a little bit
(15:01):
of history, you know, inaround that program and being able to,
you know, be pretty comfortable,maybe that give us a little bit of
an advantage. But I certainly gota lot of texts after we signed them
saying good signing from MLS teams.So so clearly people are watching. It's
just about you know, convincing theplayer of the right project. After that,
(15:22):
you um, you know you obviouslywhen I when I look at your
roster, when I look at yourteam, you sort of mentioned what you
saw last year when you saw theplayers that you had available to you through
the Columbus Crew Academy and whatnot.You know, some of the deficiencies,
and I know I've spoken with youand your new academy director in Timezbochenko and
(15:43):
everyone else about sort of the workyou guys are doing to try and catch
Columbus up. From an academy pointof view, that always takes time.
It feels like you found this inbetween space of a way to bridge the
gap by signing some homegrowns from otherteams, signing players like a Moo Farsi
who are out there but still youngthat can develop. It feels like you
(16:04):
found this good middle ground where youhad Parente and Zawotski, who are always
going to be sort of the coreof this team, and Schulte who you
draft. But then the way youbuilt the rest of this roster it feels
very unique, but also very purposeful. Hundred percent. It's the gap was
too big, and we had anopportunity on the first team with the roster,
(16:26):
you know, probably being one ofthe older rosters, to start to
really feel that next level of twentyto twenty two years old. I see
nineteen to twenty three underneath that andthen have the academy you know, start
to rebuild under there from you knowU twelve, U thirteen all the way
up to that. So, knowingthat each stage is going to take time,
(16:47):
we probably couldn't really just throw outa U nineteen Academy plus team.
It didn't make any sense. Andso that gap in between gave us the
opportunity to connect those guys who havefirst team potential that could roll in the
first team over the next year ortwo, which is exactly the age as
we need. And also the mostimportant thing was to create an environment for
(17:07):
those next group of young academy playersso they could actually see, you know,
what it should be like when theydo get there or when they're actually
called upon, you know, toinfluence matches in that. And I think
that was a big learning from mytime and our time in Toronto was that,
well, they were super talented youngguys. They were all looking at
each other for what do I do? How do I keep the standard every
(17:32):
day? And it's not their fault, but we're able to produce a group
here that is, you know,guiding through their actions, guiding through their
experiences. They're all a lot ofthem were pros somewhere right at least they've
gone through their first year being apro, they have some lessons behind them,
and so that was a really purposefulkind of group of players that we
(17:52):
brought in to develop the environment sothat then the next group, when they're
ready, could could be ready topass that kind of advice down to them
the next level. So we didn'thave that and it was a huge glaring
need within the group, and Ithink we already have seen a lot of
benefits. All We've had some youngguys pop in and make appearances here and
(18:15):
there. They're really going to bepassed next year to really start to fill
in the depth spots and then slowlybut surely age into a competitive roster,
you know, by year three orfour. So it's definitely intentional. It's
all lined up with what we weremissing, and certainly it went better than
we expected. But but it madesense when you put it on paper,
(18:36):
it made sense, Like when youexplain it to me, I'm like,
yeah, that makes sense, Andthat's exactly what we did. Speaking of
developments, just in an overall likewhere do you where do you feel major
League soccers development growth is right nowcompared to let's say the rest of the
world. And then also like,what what do you think that the crew
are doing now that sort of pushingthe boundaries and trying to innovate. Is
(19:00):
there anything that you your team's doingthat's a bit different, Yeah, for
sure. So MLS, I thinkit's pretty well documented the increase of I
guess young players moving through the pathwayand out of the league, and I
think that has been kind of happeningbehind the scenes. Certainly, Dave's been
(19:22):
a lot of youth tournaments with meand seeing the scouts and agents and everybody
growing in size, and I thinkthat has been happening over the last you
know, four to five years,where when it used to show up,
there'd be a couple and now there'syou know, every tournament clubs represented.
You've got the English Premier League clubsthere, you have you know, Spanish
clubs now, and you're starting tosee a real big interest in the league.
(19:48):
And so in terms of the changeover the years, that's that's been
massive, because it's certainly if Icould speak from a Canadian perspective, I
think probably four or five years agoI went on a you know, a
trip to try to market and promoteeven just the idea that Canada has good
young soccer players, and I thinkthat didn't go so well, and so
(20:11):
um I came back a little bitdistraught, but it was clear that,
you know, I could see thatwe did, and it was clear that
things were slowly starting to change underneath, thanks to a lot of the academies
and obviously the participation and all thosethings aligning. But I had conversations with
you know, youth sporting directors orit's the same old cliches, you know
(20:33):
that you guys are hockey players.You know, I don't think we'd be
very interested in those players coming inover for a trial and and and now,
especially in my conversations with agents andthat it's like a hot commodity,
right, I want the next youknow, Fonso Davies, I want the
next David I want of course nowit's easy for them to understand that,
(20:56):
but of course now it's way moreexpensive, and so, you know,
try to help people as much asyou can, and obviously, being a
proud Canadian, I was doing it, you know, the good work for
the country. But I did believe, and I think a lot of people
that were there knew that these kidscould play and it can hang. And
it's been you know, well documentednow that there's definitely an opportunity, whether
(21:19):
it's American or Canadian, for thoseplayers in the best leagues in the world,
and it just requires people to givethem a chance. And I think
that's been happening and people are muchmore comfortable spending that money. I think
now it's it's been clear that,well it is more money, it's still
a good avenue if you're looking formaybe some bargains versus just some other countries.
(21:42):
And at the end of the day, the coaching has improved, you
know, the education for the coacheshas improved. The facilities, as you
guys know, is they're unbelievable.Like when we sit here and talk about
you know, Ohio alone, thetraining grounds and stadiums that these two clubs
have never in my wilder streams wouldI ever imagine in Ohio, you know,
(22:03):
that would be the place you wouldsee facilities like that. And so
that's happening across the US. Youguys play MLS next Pro in an MLS
stadium and there's a second stadium andyou'll have another one. Yeah, I
mean, it's incredible. The growthover the years. Certainly that that we've
all seen, and so that allunderneath these things that take a little bit
(22:26):
of time, it all contributes,and I think you start to catch up
really quickly. And then finally theplayers. The players are so professional in
their approach. I mean they are. I don't think we have a lot
of the issues of you know,guys being paid too much and you know,
just being not kind of respectful totheir coaches. All the problems that
(22:47):
play you know, youth soccer overin some of the top countries where they're
you know, superstars at such anearly age. Well, we have some
of that. I don't think theplayers are are necessarily at that level yet
where they're not going to listen towhatever the coach says, they don't want
to do the extra gym work andstuff. These guys are so professional from
(23:08):
a young aide. In fact,they're very boring because they're so dedicated to
the game. I mean, I'msitting there waiting, you know, for
a kid to sneak out or something, and the one thing you might do
is, you know, drink anextra Gatorade or something. It's it's incredible
that these guys are so dedicated andit really goes a long way. When
you're investing in a young player,you know you're not going to have a
(23:30):
lot of problems. And I thinkthat's a big, big deal as well,
so Canadian us. These players theywant it, and at the end
of the day, you can kindof count on now maybe more of a
brand where they're going to do whateverit takes once they get over there as
well, and they're not maybe asswayed by some of the other things that
come along with the fame and sothat these guys have now been able to
(23:52):
establish themselves in the biggest leagues inthe world. I'm not surprised you mentioned
opportunity. It's not just opportunity forplayers. One of the things we always
talked about his opportunity for team adminsand athletic trainers and general managers and coaches,
right more jobs to get that experience. You guys went with Lauren Quarta
in year one. Laurent excuse me, he obviously fairly successful throughout the regular
(24:18):
season and then into the championship.What was it about him that sort of
you guys leaned on as the guyto start this whole process for you and
then what's the thought process in termsof what success that I'm ust next pro
could mean to the next level,especially at a club where there's now a
head coaching vacancy in Major League Soccer. Yeah, for sure. So Lauren
(24:41):
clearly a pretty great playing resume.You know, played for some big clubs
in England and Spain. I thinkthat's that's pretty well documented. What was
really unique about him is he cameto MLS. He had a couple of
experiences in MLS with some coaches Ithink we all know pretty well and in
(25:02):
terms of Greg and Robin, andhe was able to really understand what a
second team set up could be likewhen he was like a player coach in
la And then things changed there andthey went a different direction with the whole
I guess a group underneath and hewas looking for something different and he was
here in Columbus as an academy coachand wanted to, you know, just
(25:23):
learn and try to grow as asa person. I think that's the most
unique thing about him is his humilityand his desire to learn more. And
he could go the complete other waygiven his background, and he could be
a completely different person based on youknow, experiences I've had, and he's
super humble and just hungry to learnand very open minded. And I think
(25:48):
when we watched how he did alot of his sessions and what his games
look like in the Academy, itwas clear that there was a vision for
how he wanted to play within youknow, the constructs of the Academy,
and it was clear that he wasdoing things that were aligned with the way
in which we all saw the gamehere from from tim down um. And
(26:12):
so we consider this and I think, you know, Sean mentioned, you
know, what we're doing differently orhow we see things in the club.
This is a pathway, you know, for everyone, and it's the same
thing you mentioned, Dave. Thisis a pathway for staff and for the
players, but also for the coaches. And so if we can put those
(26:34):
guys in a place to be protectedand to make mistakes and also to try
things out, I think you canget a really good growth in a in
a person. And I think hewas surprised that how much we were going
to support him and his ideas isas crazy as he thought they were,
(26:55):
and how much we would stand behindthem regardless of you know, it looked
like even as far as you know, the semifinals, the goalkeeper getting um,
you know, chipped from half.It was something we agreed to from
the very beginning, um, andwe were going to expose the guys.
And so we talk about like Laurentand the opportunity here. He's still a
(27:17):
very new coach, but someone webelieve in a lot and someone we're going
to support as much as possible.And so in terms of where we see
the club going and that I thinkyou'll probably see more ideas similar to what
we've been doing underneath with the academyand second team, and certainly Laurent is
someone we're going to lean on todefinitely get a lot of those concepts,
(27:42):
you know, I guess spread asmuch as possible, and certainly, you
know, we have an opening andI think you'd be someone we're going to
speak to, you know a numberof times throughout the process and give him
a chance to even solidify maybe somemore of his thought when it comes to
a first team level and then gofrom there. But it is his first,
(28:06):
you know, kind of real projob, and so there are some
things we're still hoping to advance withhim day to day. But what a
tremendous prospect for us to have inour organization. And that's again the investment
and the different side of things we'retrying to do is really really grow a
pathway from top to bottom in everysingle position and not just players. And
(28:29):
if we can do that, thenyou start to really set things up for
succession rates and things like that withinthe club where we can really continue on
despite you know, people getting promoted, people getting plucked, people moving elsewhere.
If we can establish that, youknow cycle, I think that is
something unique for us where we're Columbus. We can't just go out and pay
(28:51):
for everything and being the top spenders. We're not going to do that.
So if we can really own inon our resources, which are people and
our players and obviously all our facilities, I think that will give us the
edge that we need. And that'sa little bit more unique to us as
well versus some of the other teamsthat you have other avenues of doing things.
So the final pieces is for us, I guess it's trying to be
(29:15):
as innovative as possible. And soyou know, when we talk about the
people and all that, to havesomeone like Laurent who buys into you know,
some ideas that we have on thegame and the way we see things.
I think that will be something we'relooking for, you know, for
the rest of the time that we'rehere is like minded people in that area.
(29:36):
And I have to give you know, Caleb credit. He did whatever
he could to get the results,and so it's not by any means a
knock on anything he did. Butthe alignment from top to bottom is what
we're really looking for, and Ithink that will be a little bit more
apparent as we move forward, andI think that's something that will really give
us an edge as much as wecan get here in Columbus. All Right,
(30:00):
You know, I could do thisall day. We could talk scouting
networks, we could talk. Wecould talk Caleb Borneo and Jackson Lynn Moore,
we could talk you know, developmentso much. You know, it's
my favorite and we appreciate you comingon. Thank you so much once again
to Corey Ray for joining us.Congratulations on winning the first ever MLS Next
Pro Cup. Congratulations on all thesuccess they had the soccer they played so
(30:23):
much more and of course we're goingto continue to track all the news at
the MLS level with Columbus we'll bein the discord with all of you who
are Patreon subscribers and anyone who's notPatreon dot com slash a football podcast.
You want to be there, Nowis the time to be there. Thank
you to Sean for co hosting.Shouts to the vang Decid for being out
there as well as Greg On ashe would say, the ones in twos.
(30:47):
Have a good one everyone, andwe'll talk to you again next time.
Hello and welcome everybody to AFP.I am David Goss, joined by a
usual suspect in Sean k. Wehave a special conversation coming with the general
manager of the first ever MLS NextPro Cup champion, Cory Ray. Sean
knows him from his TFC days.I've known him for years from the youth
soccer and development scene around North America. He came from Toronto to Columbus and
(00:46):
he won the first ever title overwhelmingly. His team led the league in both
goals scored and least goals conceded throughwe'll talk to Cory Ray about that in
just a moment, the general managerof Crew two as well as the assistant
general manager of Columbus Crew. Allright, let's get into our interview now
with maybe the most special guest wehave ever had on this show, a
(01:10):
good friend of all of us hereat AFP. He is the assistant general
manager of Columbus Crew and he isthe general manager of Columbus Crew. To
Corey, thanks for joining us.Thank you guys very much for having me.
Very excited to be here. SoCorey, let's start with congrats.
(01:30):
You're the first ever champions of MLSNext pro, How does championship feel on
this fine morning? Thankfully? Interviewson Tuesday. I think on Sunday morning
it was stealing a little bit roughand then faded to Monday. But I
feel much better after the celebrations onSaturday, so it was a good night.
(01:55):
You've won a couple titles for anyonewho doesn't know. Former front office
member Toronto FC, long time memberof Toronto CE, then moved to Columbus
one an MLS Cup there and nowm here winning MLS next pro. Do
you have any tips levels of expertisethat you've learned on what you know what
to do after you win. Ithink I gave it to myself on Saturday
(02:19):
was to enjoy enjoy it, right, I think, you know, despite
some of the successes that certainly I'vehad, and you know there's there's been
now a few, I almost wenthome and just lede on my couch and
it's myself. You know that youshouldn't take these things for granted by any
means, and it's important to geteverybody together to appreciate, you know,
(02:43):
the the experience. And I thinkI listened to myself regretfully. So the
next day U and I dove rightinto it head first, and I had
a really good time with a lotof the staff and you know, made
sure everybody had a really good night. And I think that's what it's all
about, to reflect, you know, all the hard work and the times
we had this year. I mean, there was nothing and then there was
(03:06):
a cup, so it happened prettyquickly. But that takes a lot of
effort and dedication and hard work,and so it's just I think it's right
to really get everyone together and havea great night out of it. That
we definitely did. Yeah, ofcore, you'd sort of mentioned that obviously
like last time this year there wasn'treally this and going into sort of this
(03:28):
year at last Next Pro, whatwas sort of your vision in regards to
what the league was going to belike and sort of then now at the
end, looking back over the firstyear, was it everything that you thought
it was going to be? Wherewere there changes? I know it's a
loaded question, but like from whereyou were a year ago looking at MLS
Next Pro to where you are today, was it the full experience? For
(03:50):
sure? There's a couple of thingsthat maybe people didn't know. But originally,
you know, when I came here, we had discussions about where this
teams are even going to fit.At the time, there wasn't even an
MLS option, and so we werelooking, you know in USL where we
had previous experience with Toronto C twoand tried to figure things out in that
(04:12):
way. And because of the pandemic, they really pushed things back a little
bit, and so it definitely hada lot of time to reflect on,
you know, what it could looklike, and of course being in a
league that helps when you're planning aroster. And so when it did become
apparent that we were able to putsomething together, we kind of came together
(04:32):
with a number of teams that didn'thave a second team last year, and
we ran a pilot program and thatpilot program just gave us friendlies against you
know, New York City, OrlandoCity, we played Philadelphia at Union,
we played Chicago Fire, and wewere able to see what we had internally
(04:53):
in a couple of different phases.The first was with our collegiate efforts,
and the Columbus crew is historically anda number of kids to college, and
so there was a ton of kidsout there in that ecosystem that I was
not familiar with and that allowed usto evaluate that group of players. And
then what we did is we alsohad our best academy kids in at the
(05:14):
time from our nineteens, and weput them together to see the different levels.
And then finally we ran the programas just an academy only kind of
option with maybe a couple of trialistsand see what that looked like. And
so we're able to really test thatwhere we stood, and frankly, we
found that there was a really bigneed for more talent underneath in that group.
(05:36):
Either the group was too young andnot ready for the level, or
we were just missing you know,a lot of different profiles and opportunities for
guys to do well. Is verydifferent than in Toronto, where we were
able to build a group out ofthe local talent and definitely take our links
but provide them with you know,we had so many different profiles you could
(05:58):
build a team over the span ofyou know, a few years. Well,
here you might have a few reallygood players and then the supporting group
definitely wasn't going to be able tocompete. I think one of our last
couple of games we could the PhiladelphiaUnion, we lost six nothing. I
think at that time Laurent he thoughthe thought he was going to get fired
before he even got hired, andhe said, no, this is perfect.
(06:20):
This gives us every opportunity to evaluatewhere we're at. We see where
guys are, and we know thatthe Philadelphia Union are, you know,
the standard in terms of quality whenit comes to their academy and what they
do underneath with their pathway, andso it give us a really good idea
of what we could be if wego out and recruit the right level of
talent. And so that's kind ofwhere it ended with that phase, and
(06:45):
then what we expected. I thinkwhat changed quite a bit. Even leading
into the first week, we didn'treally know a whole lot about how each
group was preparing. I had anumber of conversations with everyone, but I
think the league caught up quickly enoughto some of the challenges in terms of
staffing, and obviously the people thatwere supporting the league itself was all being
(07:08):
hired at the same time that wewere building a team. So there were
some early bumps, but after thatI felt like it really grew into a
really strong competition, and I thinkany teams that you know, underestimated what
some of the quality of the teamswould be quickly tried to remedy that and
(07:28):
tried to assign some guys in thesummer and provide us with some really good
games to end a year. Soit of course corrected pretty quickly. You've
already leaned into a few of thetopics who want to dig into you with
especially the Canadian presence on this team. But sure you men, you mentioned
running TFC two. I know thatwas league on Ontario for some time,
but USL for a lot of timebefore we get to this specific to you
(07:53):
don't want to ask about the twoleagues? What are the differences? And
I think there was some fear Iknow from some people to about you know,
USL, you go and play theNew Mexico is the Louisvilles of the
world, senior teams that have seniorexperienced players as well as those atmospheres,
and there's a worry about what MLSnext pro will be up against that in
(08:13):
terms of for development. And soI'm just curious what you thought of this
year and sort of the differences,advantages or disadvantages of this setup now for
the development pipeline here in North America, yeah, I think Look, we
were in the early days of thetransition of the USLU in the in the
Championship, and it was certainly notwhat it is now. And so you
(08:35):
know, understanding that they've then builtoff of you know, the league partnership
with MLS, and they've grown withgreat ownership groups and built fan bases and
they put a ton behind their youknow, sales and marketing. So I
wasn't expecting us to be at thatlevel by any means in the first year
of something that was just you know, launching. So the differences are clear.
(08:58):
You know, you aren't able tocome up against as many of those
teams, and certainly there is afan base that is probably just starting out
in terms of understanding what these teamsare all about. But the potential is
there. So for a couple ofyears, if you're missing that, okay,
(09:18):
that's that's not great. But Ialso wouldn't say that every player would
be necessarily only playing in next proover the course of the next few years
in their pathway. And I don'tsee why there isn't an opportunity to throw
a player into the USL Championship ifthere's a really good fan base or maybe
an older group that they can benefitfrom or that someone's blocked in terms of
(09:39):
their pathway here. So it's aboutusing each each level. But I do
understand the arguments of not being ableto play against some of those older teams.
But I also it depends on thelevel of resistance that the players need
in your group, and well,that would be great for us. It's
certainly I felt like we had enough. I guess, well, maybe we
(10:01):
didn't have enough because we did sowell, But there were certainly games that
provided us with challenges and and therewas rosters week in week out that change
because of you know, the hometeam putting down some really talented play.
I mean the first game we played, you know, inter Miami had Emerson
car of us like to shreds,and that was a two million plus investment,
(10:26):
and so you're definitely not getting thatin USL. And so there was
players that you know, have reallygood um MLS experience or young players that
needed, you know, some moreconsistency that we're playing against that. On
the flip side, I definitely wouldnever have seen that in USL against some
of these other teams. So there'sdefinitely give or take. We never expected
(10:46):
it to be like the USL Championship, but we did want to make sure
that the games were, you know, of a professional nature, provided our
guys with opportunities to showcase themselves andput them in situations to learn, and
I gotta say we definitely got thatout of this season. Keeping up with
(11:13):
sort of that David mentioned, likethe Canadian conversation, I think something that
made a bit of waves earlier inthe season was your guys signing Mofarsi to
a deal and sort of having thefans have that conversation of is is that
the pathway that that most players aregoing to go? And how is it
going to continue? What is itabout this Canadian Premier League that like,
(11:39):
do you feel like you guys werethe only one sort of not watching but
like scouting and looking to see thatas as an opportunity for next pro or
do you think or is there alot of people keeping their eye on it
from the developmental side. I thinkclearly your Vancouver as Muchels and Torontos are
are pretty aware of it. There'sbeen a couple USL teams that have moved
(12:01):
a player or two over the lastcouple of years, but certainly. I
don't know about the overall in depthscouting that's going on with some of the
other USL teams. I don't knowwhy. You know, as a Canadian
and someone who's very familiar with it, the quality is great and in the
structure and the games they get.So should there be more people looking at
(12:24):
it? Of course, and that'sup to them now they alloscate their scouting
resources. But for me, itwas really clear to see that there's players
who've been given an opportunity, youknow, to compete in a team that
you know, has to win eachweek and has to perform in front of
you know, crowds and have thingson the line that can benefit from then
(12:46):
moving from there to here in termsof everything else right behind the scenes,
what does the training look like,the facilities and nutrition and the sports performance
like, that's the stuff that we'reable to put around these guys that maybe
they don't have the resources in theCPL to do, you know, consistently
for a number of reasons, butthey do get the game side of there.
(13:09):
So we felt like we could putyou know, someone like Mo in
this situation, expose them to firstteam trainings, give them the necessary additional
resources and then let them fly.And I think that was the sales pitch
from mem. It was difficult againbecause there was no league. So I
was like, forget, forget theleague, like get everything else. We
(13:31):
have yere right, like, we'regoing to surround you with everyone else and
and and we'll see what the leaguelooks like. But the games what we
spoke to most of the guys,the games are like the icing on the
top of your development cake and therest of it behind you. We're not
looking game by game for those benefits. We're looking, you know, month
(13:52):
by month and by the end ofthe year, where do you stand and
and so that was kind of adifferent approach for him. We're going to
try to make you better and certainareas and we're going to build off for
that. So that's more individualized,and I think that for someone you know,
knowing you're going to put something intothat player. And definitely full credit
to Tommy and those guys at Calvary. They took him and made him a
(14:15):
Young Player of the Year, butthere was a little bit more that could
even go deeper into what more neededwhere he's not necessarily, you know,
just preparing for games and trying towin each week. We're clearly trying to
do well and stick to the process, but we could really focus on a
little bit more for him and givehim the opportunity to showcase himself. So
again, the player, Yeah,there's Canadians and there's Americans, and there's
(14:37):
players. We're looking for good playerswith potential, and it just so happens
that maybe I have a bit morecomfort in that market, but that those
are definitely good players and they're beinggiven opportunities. So the question would be
why wouldn't we look there, Andso that's maybe a little bit different for
us than other teams. But also, you know, having a little bit
(15:01):
of history, you know, inaround that program and being able to,
you know, be pretty comfortable,maybe that give us a little bit of
an advantage. But I certainly gota lot of texts after we signed them
saying good signing from MLS teams.So so clearly people are watching. It's
just about you know, convincing theplayer of the right project. After that,
(15:22):
you um, you know you obviouslywhen I when I look at your
roster, when I look at yourteam, you sort of mentioned what you
saw last year when you saw theplayers that you had available to you through
the Columbus Crew Academy and whatnot.You know, some of the deficiencies,
and I know I've spoken with youand your new academy director in Timezbochenko and
(15:43):
everyone else about sort of the workyou guys are doing to try and catch
Columbus up. From an academy pointof view, that always takes time.
It feels like you found this inbetween space of a way to bridge the
gap by signing some homegrowns from otherteams, signing players like a Moo Farsi
who are out there but still youngthat can develop. It feels like you
(16:04):
found this good middle ground where youhad Parente and Zawotski, who are always
going to be sort of the coreof this team, and Schulte who you
draft. But then the way youbuilt the rest of this roster it feels
very unique, but also very purposeful. Hundred percent. It's the gap was
too big, and we had anopportunity on the first team with the roster,
(16:26):
you know, probably being one ofthe older rosters, to start to
really feel that next level of twentyto twenty two years old. I see
nineteen to twenty three underneath that andthen have the academy you know, start
to rebuild under there from you knowU twelve, U thirteen all the way
up to that. So, knowingthat each stage is going to take time,
(16:47):
we probably couldn't really just throw outa U nineteen Academy plus team.
It didn't make any sense. Andso that gap in between gave us the
opportunity to connect those guys who havefirst team potential that could roll in the
first team over the next year ortwo, which is exactly the age as
we need. And also the mostimportant thing was to create an environment for
(17:07):
those next group of young academy playersso they could actually see, you know,
what it should be like when theydo get there or when they're actually
called upon, you know, toinfluence matches in that. And I think
that was a big learning from mytime and our time in Toronto was that,
well, they were super talented youngguys. They were all looking at
each other for what do I do? How do I keep the standard every
(17:32):
day? And it's not their fault, but we're able to produce a group
here that is, you know,guiding through their actions, guiding through their
experiences. They're all a lot ofthem were pros somewhere right at least they've
gone through their first year being apro, they have some lessons behind them,
and so that was a really purposefulkind of group of players that we
(17:52):
brought in to develop the environment sothat then the next group, when they're
ready, could could be ready topass that kind of advice down to them
the next level. So we didn'thave that and it was a huge glaring
need within the group, and Ithink we already have seen a lot of
benefits. All We've had some youngguys pop in and make appearances here and
(18:15):
there. They're really going to bepassed next year to really start to fill
in the depth spots and then slowlybut surely age into a competitive roster,
you know, by year three orfour. So it's definitely intentional. It's
all lined up with what we weremissing, and certainly it went better than
we expected. But but it madesense when you put it on paper,
(18:36):
it made sense, Like when youexplain it to me, I'm like,
yeah, that makes sense, Andthat's exactly what we did. Speaking of
developments, just in an overall likewhere do you where do you feel major
League soccers development growth is right nowcompared to let's say the rest of the
world. And then also like,what what do you think that the crew
are doing now that sort of pushingthe boundaries and trying to innovate. Is
(19:00):
there anything that you your team's doingthat's a bit different, Yeah, for
sure. So MLS, I thinkit's pretty well documented the increase of I
guess young players moving through the pathwayand out of the league, and I
think that has been kind of happeningbehind the scenes. Certainly, Dave's been
(19:22):
a lot of youth tournaments with meand seeing the scouts and agents and everybody
growing in size, and I thinkthat has been happening over the last you
know, four to five years,where when it used to show up,
there'd be a couple and now there'syou know, every tournament clubs represented.
You've got the English Premier League clubsthere, you have you know, Spanish
clubs now, and you're starting tosee a real big interest in the league.
(19:48):
And so in terms of the changeover the years, that's that's been
massive, because it's certainly if Icould speak from a Canadian perspective, I
think probably four or five years agoI went on a you know, a
trip to try to market and promoteeven just the idea that Canada has good
young soccer players, and I thinkthat didn't go so well, and so
(20:11):
um I came back a little bitdistraught, but it was clear that,
you know, I could see thatwe did, and it was clear that
things were slowly starting to change underneath, thanks to a lot of the academies
and obviously the participation and all thosethings aligning. But I had conversations with
you know, youth sporting directors orit's the same old cliches, you know
(20:33):
that you guys are hockey players.You know, I don't think we'd be
very interested in those players coming inover for a trial and and and now,
especially in my conversations with agents andthat it's like a hot commodity,
right, I want the next youknow, Fonso Davies, I want the
next David I want of course nowit's easy for them to understand that,
(20:56):
but of course now it's way moreexpensive, and so, you know,
try to help people as much asyou can, and obviously, being a
proud Canadian, I was doing it, you know, the good work for
the country. But I did believe, and I think a lot of people
that were there knew that these kidscould play and it can hang. And
it's been you know, well documentednow that there's definitely an opportunity, whether
(21:19):
it's American or Canadian, for thoseplayers in the best leagues in the world,
and it just requires people to givethem a chance. And I think
that's been happening and people are muchmore comfortable spending that money. I think
now it's it's been clear that,well it is more money, it's still
a good avenue if you're looking formaybe some bargains versus just some other countries.
(21:42):
And at the end of the day, the coaching has improved, you
know, the education for the coacheshas improved. The facilities, as you
guys know, is they're unbelievable.Like when we sit here and talk about
you know, Ohio alone, thetraining grounds and stadiums that these two clubs
have never in my wilder streams wouldI ever imagine in Ohio, you know,
(22:03):
that would be the place you wouldsee facilities like that. And so
that's happening across the US. Youguys play MLS next Pro in an MLS
stadium and there's a second stadium andyou'll have another one. Yeah, I
mean, it's incredible. The growthover the years. Certainly that that we've
all seen, and so that allunderneath these things that take a little bit
(22:26):
of time, it all contributes,and I think you start to catch up
really quickly. And then finally theplayers. The players are so professional in
their approach. I mean they are. I don't think we have a lot
of the issues of you know,guys being paid too much and you know,
just being not kind of respectful totheir coaches. All the problems that
(22:47):
play you know, youth soccer overin some of the top countries where they're
you know, superstars at such anearly age. Well, we have some
of that. I don't think theplayers are are necessarily at that level yet
where they're not going to listen towhatever the coach says, they don't want
to do the extra gym work andstuff. These guys are so professional from
(23:08):
a young aide. In fact,they're very boring because they're so dedicated to
the game. I mean, I'msitting there waiting, you know, for
a kid to sneak out or something, and the one thing you might do
is, you know, drink anextra Gatorade or something. It's it's incredible
that these guys are so dedicated andit really goes a long way. When
you're investing in a young player,you know you're not going to have a
(23:30):
lot of problems. And I thinkthat's a big, big deal as well,
so Canadian us. These players theywant it, and at the end
of the day, you can kindof count on now maybe more of a
brand where they're going to do whateverit takes once they get over there as
well, and they're not maybe asswayed by some of the other things that
come along with the fame and sothat these guys have now been able to
(23:52):
establish themselves in the biggest leagues inthe world. I'm not surprised you mentioned
opportunity. It's not just opportunity forplayers. One of the things we always
talked about his opportunity for team adminsand athletic trainers and general managers and coaches,
right more jobs to get that experience. You guys went with Lauren Quarta
in year one. Laurent excuse me, he obviously fairly successful throughout the regular
(24:18):
season and then into the championship.What was it about him that sort of
you guys leaned on as the guyto start this whole process for you and
then what's the thought process in termsof what success that I'm ust next pro
could mean to the next level,especially at a club where there's now a
head coaching vacancy in Major League Soccer. Yeah, for sure. So Lauren
(24:41):
clearly a pretty great playing resume.You know, played for some big clubs
in England and Spain. I thinkthat's that's pretty well documented. What was
really unique about him is he cameto MLS. He had a couple of
experiences in MLS with some coaches Ithink we all know pretty well and in
(25:02):
terms of Greg and Robin, andhe was able to really understand what a
second team set up could be likewhen he was like a player coach in
la And then things changed there andthey went a different direction with the whole
I guess a group underneath and hewas looking for something different and he was
here in Columbus as an academy coachand wanted to, you know, just
(25:23):
learn and try to grow as asa person. I think that's the most
unique thing about him is his humilityand his desire to learn more. And
he could go the complete other waygiven his background, and he could be
a completely different person based on youknow, experiences I've had, and he's
super humble and just hungry to learnand very open minded. And I think
(25:48):
when we watched how he did alot of his sessions and what his games
look like in the Academy, itwas clear that there was a vision for
how he wanted to play within youknow, the constructs of the Academy,
and it was clear that he wasdoing things that were aligned with the way
in which we all saw the gamehere from from tim down um. And
(26:12):
so we consider this and I think, you know, Sean mentioned, you
know, what we're doing differently orhow we see things in the club.
This is a pathway, you know, for everyone, and it's the same
thing you mentioned, Dave. Thisis a pathway for staff and for the
players, but also for the coaches. And so if we can put those
(26:34):
guys in a place to be protectedand to make mistakes and also to try
things out, I think you canget a really good growth in a in
a person. And I think hewas surprised that how much we were going
to support him and his ideas isas crazy as he thought they were,
(26:55):
and how much we would stand behindthem regardless of you know, it looked
like even as far as you know, the semifinals, the goalkeeper getting um,
you know, chipped from half.It was something we agreed to from
the very beginning, um, andwe were going to expose the guys.
And so we talk about like Laurentand the opportunity here. He's still a
(27:17):
very new coach, but someone webelieve in a lot and someone we're going
to support as much as possible.And so in terms of where we see
the club going and that I thinkyou'll probably see more ideas similar to what
we've been doing underneath with the academyand second team, and certainly Laurent is
someone we're going to lean on todefinitely get a lot of those concepts,
(27:42):
you know, I guess spread asmuch as possible, and certainly, you
know, we have an opening andI think you'd be someone we're going to
speak to, you know a numberof times throughout the process and give him
a chance to even solidify maybe somemore of his thought when it comes to
a first team level and then gofrom there. But it is his first,
(28:06):
you know, kind of real projob, and so there are some
things we're still hoping to advance withhim day to day. But what a
tremendous prospect for us to have inour organization. And that's again the investment
and the different side of things we'retrying to do is really really grow a
pathway from top to bottom in everysingle position and not just players. And
(28:29):
if we can do that, thenyou start to really set things up for
succession rates and things like that withinthe club where we can really continue on
despite you know, people getting promoted, people getting plucked, people moving elsewhere.
If we can establish that, youknow cycle, I think that is
something unique for us where we're Columbus. We can't just go out and pay
(28:51):
for everything and being the top spenders. We're not going to do that.
So if we can really own inon our resources, which are people and
our players and obviously all our facilities, I think that will give us the
edge that we need. And that'sa little bit more unique to us as
well versus some of the other teamsthat you have other avenues of doing things.
So the final pieces is for us, I guess it's trying to be
(29:15):
as innovative as possible. And soyou know, when we talk about the
people and all that, to havesomeone like Laurent who buys into you know,
some ideas that we have on thegame and the way we see things.
I think that will be something we'relooking for, you know, for
the rest of the time that we'rehere is like minded people in that area.
(29:36):
And I have to give you know, Caleb credit. He did whatever
he could to get the results,and so it's not by any means a
knock on anything he did. Butthe alignment from top to bottom is what
we're really looking for, and Ithink that will be a little bit more
apparent as we move forward, andI think that's something that will really give
us an edge as much as wecan get here in Columbus. All Right,
(30:00):
You know, I could do thisall day. We could talk scouting
networks, we could talk. Wecould talk Caleb Borneo and Jackson Lynn Moore,
we could talk you know, developmentso much. You know, it's
my favorite and we appreciate you comingon. Thank you so much once again
to Corey Ray for joining us.Congratulations on winning the first ever MLS Next
Pro Cup. Congratulations on all thesuccess they had the soccer they played so
(30:23):
much more and of course we're goingto continue to track all the news at
the MLS level with Columbus we'll bein the discord with all of you who
are Patreon subscribers and anyone who's notPatreon dot com slash a football podcast.
You want to be there, Nowis the time to be there. Thank
you to Sean for co hosting.Shouts to the vang Decid for being out
there as well as Greg On ashe would say, the ones in twos.
(30:47):
Have a good one everyone, andwe'll talk to you again next time.
Popular Podcasts
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com