A Space Opera Podcast: A Brief History of the Genre, SciFi vs SO and Titan AE Rewatch!

This week on A Space Opera Podcast host Jon Justice covers:

-Movies on HBO Max
-A Brief History of the Genre
-Rewatch: Titan AE
-Listener Feedback

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
It's my nerd World, a spaceopera podcast a podcast a show. Dare
I say an epic devoted to thegreatest subgenre in the history of content creation.
Okay, that's a bit of astretch. I just happen to love
space operas. On the show thisweek, talk a little bit about the

(00:21):
series on HBO Max. It originallyaired on I believe CNN and on HBO.
It's an HBO production. I mean, it's a CNN production, but
it basically goes through all the differenteras of filmmaking and movies and watching it
from the very beginning and going throughthe Golden Age, something kind of stuck
out as it relates to science fictionand space opera. So I want to
share that with you. We're gonnacontinue our brief history of the genre of

(00:46):
space opera, and what I'm findingout is that opinions about the genre and
what it means are vastly different dependingon what article and who you're speaking to.
So you have another article we'll sharethis week our rewatch. I know
an audiball one that I wasn't anticipatingtalking about, but my son suggested we
watch this movie or I'm on vacationthis week and half the families out of

(01:08):
town, and I said, allright, we can sit down and watch
it. And it didn't even occurto me that I was watching a space
opera and a damn good space operaat that. This week our rewatch is
going to be Titan AE. Plus, we do have some listener feedback from
those who have email to talk shownerd at a gmail dot com, so
we'll get to that as well.Other show is obviously brought to you by

(01:30):
my nerd World and my nerdworld dotnet where you can find out all things
my nerd World podcasts and the EmbarkSpace Opera novels. And this week's show
is also brought to you by Zone. A lot of people have reached out
after last week's show, so here'sthe details on what Zone is. One
million users united with one mission,and that is to take back social media

(01:52):
now. With your help, Zonewill take billions from today's social media giants
and then give it back to you, the user. Now. I'm concerned
about the increasing amount of censorship that'sbeen coming from social media companies and I
use a lot of social media atthe minor world at John Justice on Twitter
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(02:15):
of Zone now. It's a brandnew social media outlet that's launching very soon
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(03:01):
And here is the website. It'sour Zone dot Zone. Oh you
are Zo ne dot Zone. Ourzone dot Zone again, Oh you are
Zone dot Zone. My nerd World. It is my nerd World, a

(03:32):
space opera podcast, and I amyour host, John Justice. Glad you
are with the show again this week. It really does mean a lot.
You can always email me talk shownerd at gmail dot com or go on
by the website my nerdworld dot netmy nerdworld dot net, where you can
find out all things about this show, the Star Wars podcast, the depeche

(03:55):
Mode podcast, and the science fictionspace opera series Embark three books in fourth
book on the way, fifth bookcurrently being written. And again welcome to
the show. I am I'm gladyou're with me again this week. Like
I stated last week, and forthose that may have missed last week initial
episode and the preview pod, whichyou can definitely go and check out.

(04:15):
I had initially thought about doing aself publication podcast for my becoming an author,
having written my three stories Embarked TheGreat Evacuation, Embark Treasure in Darkness
and Embark The Vanishing War, andthen coming very soon Gon Corbin and the
Asteroid of Misfortune, and then thekickoff of a new trilogy in Embark book

(04:36):
five. But as I mentioned lastweek, it wasn't quite working out the
way that I wanted to for aself publishing podcast, and so I decided
to first look to see if therewere any space opera podcasts, and I
found out there's not. There's alot of podcasts dedicated to science fiction and
talking with different science fiction content creatorsand authors and filmmakers, but nothing devoted

(05:00):
specifically to the space opera, thespace opera genre, and it's my favorite
genre and even without even me thinkingabout it, because of my love of
Star Wars and what has grown outof that space opera and everything that falls
under that particular umbrella is by farthe most compelling subgenre of science fiction on

(05:24):
top of me being a massive scifi fan. So I decided to go
ahead and start a space opera podcastwhere we would talk a bit about the
genre. We would cover a newfilm or a new book release. We
will be doing interviews sometime in thenear future when things on the author side
of my life slowdown, because I'mjuggling doing multiple shows, the full time

(05:47):
radio host job along with writing thesebooks, and so when I have some
time to schedule in and start talkingto some space opera authors and content creators,
you will obviously hear that right hereon a Space opera a podcast.
This week, I wanted to continuewith something we started last week, and
that is going over a bit ofthe history of the of the genre.

(06:10):
I found a brand new article,well actually it's not a brand new article,
it's the new article to me.This article was actually written on the
cusp of the Last Jedi coming out, which is really interesting from the standpoint
of what the writer from Film SchoolRejects where I found the article, some
of the jabs that they take atStar Wars in a pre Last Jedi world

(06:33):
before that controversy erupted. So fromthat aspect, it's it's a pretty interesting
read. But beyond that, it'salso a really interesting read from the space
opera perspective. We covered an articlelast week, and there is there's kind
of a big gap between what wastalked about last week in terms of the

(06:54):
history of the genre and what thisparticular writer from Film School Rejects has to
say about it. Before I getto that, though, and we talk
a bit about the rewatch of titanAe, a fantastic film, not without
its flaws and changes if I hadmy hands on it, but a really
enjoyable space opera and one that probablya lot of you listening to the show

(07:17):
haven't seen before. Before we getto that, though, I want to
talk a little bit about the seriesmovies on HBO Max. Now, this
is an incredibly well produced series thatgoes through all of the different ages of
Hollywood filmmaking. And I've seen sortof the latter half of these episodes,

(07:41):
but not in their entirety, andrecently, having downloaded the HBO Max app,
I was really excited to see thatthe series was on HBO Max.
And so this afternoon, as Iwas prepping for this week's show, I
decided to sit down and put onthe very first episode, which is a
just titled The Golden Age. Andit is fasting, especially in the and
this is as political as I'm goingto get, but especially in the environment

(08:05):
that we live today, where thereis so much commentary on diversity, inclusivity,
you know, gender, gender rolesin films, and I'll just stop
there. It's really interesting to seea real honest take of Hollywood and what

(08:28):
was happening back then within Hollywood andthe scriptwriting process and the production process,
and the direct and the directing process. That was actually really surprising, giving
a lot of the controversies that wesee today that dominates so much of our
conversation around around films. More specifically, what I'm driving at is watching this
first episode of Movies, I suddenlyfound evidence of kind of what I had

(08:56):
suspected for a long long time,and that is movies are way more inclusive
and people want to go and leton. Okay, And again, I
don't want to get political here,I just want to state something upfront.
I know there's been a lot ofcomplaints, especially when it comes to the
Disney Star Wars era from a certainsegment of the fandom that I don't agree
with, who have talked a lotabout s JW and things of that nature.
Again, without giving an opinion onthat. What's really really fascinating is

(09:18):
that you go back and you watchthe Golden Age of cinema and you see
the number of women that were actuallyrecognized and how for a period of time
in filmmaking the cinemas were dominated withfemale leads to the point where it was
all females on the screen. It'sjust really really interesting when you consider some
of the arguments that are made todaythat just do not line up when it

(09:39):
comes to what people complain about inmodern day filmmaking and production and casting and
hiring. And you go back andyou watch some of these documentaries about early
thirties and forties Hollywood, and you'llfind out, Wow, either there was
a misstep along the way, orthings are not nearly as bad as what
everybody said. Anyways, the otherthing that I wanted to mention more specifically

(10:03):
to a space opera podcast because I'vegot way more political than I wanted it
to. I just thought it wasan interesting and interesting observation is that a
surprising lack of science fiction. Lookingback at those thirties and forties, you've
got adventure films in there, butvery little big screen science fiction films.
And I know, and I knowwhen the juxtaposition takes place, and and

(10:26):
we're going to get into that alittle bit in this article here from Film
School Rejects. I know personally whenthat change began to happen, but seeing
all of the major motion pictures andwhat people were going to the cinemas,
especially during the Great Depression to seeit is abundantly clear that there was a
complete lack of anything science fiction,which is really really interesting because it's not

(10:48):
just science fiction, it's also abit of fantasy, and even the science
fiction that we got leading up tothe Big One, right, and I'll
get to that in a second.Was surprised, usingly sort of downbeat and
depressing, and they were allegories tomodern societal challenges, as was Star Wars

(11:11):
too, But George was very sortof subversive with all of that. You
only find out later on what hisinfluences were, even though you could definitely
inject your own perception of what hewas trying to say in terms of modern
society and the Vietnam War and toa lesser extent, religion. But I
don't want to get into that.However. The larger point I want to

(11:33):
make is that George Lucas and StarWars, when it came around, it
really becomes abundantly clear why that filmended up taking off the way that it
did, because he just did somethingthat hadn't been done before. You'd seen
it in some of the Saturday morningserials. But to take it to the
level that George Lucas did in creatingthis space opera western set in space that

(11:56):
had subtext that was relatable to theaverage you know, moviegoer in the nineteen
you know, in the late nineteenseventies, it really was groundbreaking in what
he was attempting to do. Andit's just so hard to see that these
days because so much has been donealready you know. But if you're like
me and you love movies, gocheck out the series on there on HBO

(12:18):
Max. It really is well done. I'm looking forward to watching more of
it this weekend. All right,So let's go ahead and transition from that
too. This week's topic for theshow, if you will, beyond our
rewatch, and that is continuing tolook at the history of the genre as
space opera. I have an articlehere from Carrie and Fisher from Film School
Rejects Adventure await awaits a brief historyof space opera as the Galaxy celebrates the

(12:41):
Last Jedi. As I said,this is when it came out. We
celebrate the unappreciated subgenre of science fictionthat paved the way for our favorite space
adventures. Right now. He startsthis off talking about how everybody is celebrating
the last Jedi coming out. Andagain, which really funny about this,
the fact that you know this ispre all the controversy around it, because

(13:03):
there's some stabs that he takes theStar Wars later on in the article,
but he basically starts off and saysthat it's time for reflection, right,
I want to look at the oncemaligned strand of space romp that Star Wars
is very much a product of,and that is the space opera. What
is it though? Right? Verysimilar to the article that we had on

(13:24):
last week's show. Given the spaceopera has a history of being scorned by
critics and dismissed by academics and scifi scholars alike, only a few commentators
have tried to define the subgenre.The term was originally coined back in nineteen
forty one by influential critic and fanzinetrendsetter Bob Tucker, who, despite dedicating

(13:45):
his life to the study of sciencefiction, had no kind words to stay
about the stories that he defined asspace operas. And he said, here
and I do that thing with myfingers. In these hectic days of phrase
coining, we offer one. Westernsare called horse operas, the morning housewife
care jerkers are called soap operas.For the hacking, grinding, stinking,

(14:09):
outworn spaceship yarn or world saving forthat matter, we offer space opera.
Space opera was unwanted, according tothe writer, and not welcomed by the
more sophisticated afficionados of sci fi,but they just had to learn to live
with it. Since Stucker's definition,however, other experts have adopted a more

(14:31):
level headed, objective, and evenappreciative approach when describing these interstellar pulp stories.
In her essay not just Cosmic Skullduggery, A partial reconsideration of Space Opera,
boys at Pinki's Up, Patricia Monk, even her name is pinkies Up,
Patricia Monk, I've written an articlenot just cosmic skullduggery, but a

(14:56):
partially reconsideration of space opera. Okay, that was awful. I apologize,
Patricia Monk says this. She characterizedspace operas as romantic, action oriented,
imaginative, circumscribed to optimistic, sociallynaive. Regardless of the myriad of meanings
various writers have applied to space operasthroughout the years. Most have acknowledged common

(15:18):
themes in the majority of the stories, such as the existence of alien life
forms and conflicts taking place in outerspace. Now, the space operas genres
skyrocketed in the latter part of thedecade due to the emergence of sci fi
magazines like Amazing Stories and Weird Tales. E. Smith's nineteen twenty eight The
Skylark of Space is widely considered thefirst true space opera by traditional standards,

(15:43):
and the author is often hailed asthe subgenre's forefather. Now, in the
nineteen thirties, where the golden agefor space opera across a variety of mediums,
literature started to blend narratives from Western'sdetective, war and adventure fiction with
tales of interest or voyages to createa popular new era in sci fi storytelling.

(16:04):
And what he points to here thereare writers and again there is a
lack of film here in addition tostories appearing in novels and pulp magazines,
comic strips, television, and somefilm, they also started to embrace space
opera in the late nineteen twenties andend of the following decade. The Buck
Rogers character made his debut his comicsdebut in nineteen twenty nine, then in
nineteen thirty three, he made hisscreen debut in the ten minute film Buck

(16:27):
Rogers in the twenty fifth Century,an Interplanetary Battle with the Tiger Men of
Mars. That's a title that actuallytakes longer to say than it does to
go and watch the film, consideringit was only ten minutes long. Hence,
back to my point, there weren'ta lot of science fiction fantasy films
back in those days. Science fiction. Yes, let me rephrase it,

(16:48):
there was some science fiction, youknow, depending on what you classify like
a film like well, certainly theUniversal Monster Films or King Kong. But
okay, back to the article.In nineteen thirty six, Gordon serial,
based on Alex Raymond's popular nineteen thirtyfour comics series of the same name,
was adapted by Universal to become oneof the highest grossing films of that year.

(17:08):
A second serial, Flash Gordon's Tripto Mars, followed at nineteen thirty
eight, and Flash Gordon Conquers theUniverse completed a trilogy back in nineteen forty.
The subgenres transition into visual media soaredat the tail end of the nineteen
forties and into the fifties. Showslike Captain Video and His Video Rangers,

(17:29):
Tom Corbett, Space Cadet, andSpace Patrol took television into space, while
characters like Captain Comic Comic and AdamStrange graced the panels of DC titles.
But it wasn't until the nineteen sixtiesthat space opera truly blossomed on the small
screen. In nineteen sixty five,Lost in Space made its debut and even
got the attention of NASA, whosaw the show as an opportunity to promote

(17:51):
their space program. At the time, another popular sci fi show with a
strong space opera flavor to emerge duringthe Swinging decade, sought to explore strange
new worlds, to seek out newlife and new civilizations, to boldly go
where no man has gone before.Of course, I'm talking about Star Wars.
That was a joke. I'm talkingabout Star Trek. I'm gonna jump

(18:15):
ahead too because friend of the show, Edwin and his Lowdown Show, which
is to check out on YouTube tosearch for the l o Down Show.
The Lowdown Show did a recent interviewwith him about about the third book in
the Embark series and really had agreat time, and that's available on the
podcast page at minordworld dot net.Star Trek differed from the fair that came

(18:37):
before, as it coupled the actionoriented characteristics that were commonplace within the genre
with philosophical, thought provoking themes fora brand of science fiction that was introduced
to pop culture discourses. Hackey grinding, stinking outworn spaceship yarn. Star Trek
proved that this type of accessible entertainmentcould contain substance as well as Pierre entertainment.

(19:00):
I'm gonna stop here briefly. Iwant to mention something too. Another
documentary that I found on HBO Max. It's called Trek Nation and what Trek
Nation is about. It's about GeneRoddenberry's son. His son actually created this
documentary where he basically goes in interviewspeople who were a part of not only

(19:23):
the original Star Trek television show,but also the films to find out more
about his father, who died inthe nineties. It turns out that Gene
Roddenberry's son and Gene Roddenberry were notall that close, and so he wanted
to, as his son, findout more about his dad posthumously. So

(19:44):
he created this documentary and it reallyis a fascinating watch. I'm not a
I'm definitely a Star Wars person beforeI'm a Star Trek person, a person
I don't even think I've seen allof the original Star Trek television shows.
I may have when I was akid, and I don't remember, but
it's not anything that I returned to. I'm more sort of a modern day
Star trek Um. I love Wrathof Con I think that's a fantastic film.

(20:07):
I think Voyage Home is good.I'm a big fan of the three
more recent um JJ Abrams and StarTrek Beyond films, but I'm not a
Treky by any stretch of the imagination. However, that documentary was really really
insightful and some interesting and controversial insightsin the gene Roddenberry that I wasn't aware
of. M I kin kind ofhad a meet you thing going on that

(20:29):
gets talked about in the documentary,but I think gets kind of kind of
kind of glazed over. So definitelygoing and check that out, especially if
you're a treky in the Cambridge Companionto Science Fiction. Geez, talk about
pinkies up on that one. It'sthe Cambridge Companions to Science Fiction. I
mean, we're all Star Trek fanshere. They note the Star Trek was

(20:52):
the first on screen space operas successfullyto combine the classic pulp adventure elements of
the um Rutarian themes. The Ruletarianspace opera is distinguished by sophisticated characteristics,
which often entail romance subplots and solarsystems governed by their own political establishments.
Hey, I hadn't really heard thatbefore, but Embark is kind of rutarian

(21:18):
to a certain extent, although Ibet mine has way less sophistication when it
comes to stuff that blows up.That would be That would be my guess.
There is a romantic subplot, andthere are essentially eight solar systems governed
by at least attempts for their ownpolitical establishment. So hey, look at
that? Can I be pinky?Sup nows? The embark sylis is ruintarian.
Sorry. In these stories, alienlife forms tend to be three dimensional

(21:41):
and driven by their own personal motives. No aliens in my books, such
as greed and fevery, etc.In nineteen seventy seven, Star Wars came
along and changed the game, completely, inspiring a new area a new era
of space yarns. As a result. These included imitators like The black Hole
Star Crash, Battle Beyond the Stars, The Last Starfighter, and the television
series Battlestar Galactica, which Lucas triedto sue for plagiarizing his ideas. I'd

(22:07):
never heard that before. In thetwo thousands, shows like Battlestar Galactica Reboot
and Firefly kept quality space operas alive, with George Lucas trying to destroy all
good will he'd built with his originalStar Wars trilogy with this prequel trilogy.
Thankfully, the Star Wars universe wassalvaged by the Clone Wars. That's the
dig that I was talking about.And can I just tell you, I'm
so sick and tired of hearing thisnonsense. This is what I'm going to

(22:30):
be focusing on on this Weekend's aStar Wars podcast if you want to go
and check it out. Plus I'llhave the winners of the Embark giveaway this
week on Saturday show. Depending onwhen you're listening to this be Saturday the
twenty ninth. Look and again,artists subjective and everybody is entitled to their
opinion. But even today I wasout returning a power of vacuum because the

(22:52):
wife gave me homework to go andclean the carpets in the house while they
were in California, and I'm onvacation and I was listening to the Star
Wars Report where they had an interviewwith the guy and his name escaped me.
But he's written the Secret History ofStar Wars or whatever it was.
A really fascinating listen. But again, it's these definitives that some of these

(23:17):
Star Wars fans make of not providingthe in my opinion, then they make
these blankets sort of statements like thisone here George Lucas tried to destroy all
good will he'd built in his originalStar Wars trilogy. My gosh, we're
so spoiled. And that's what's kindof fun about doing the Space Opera podcast
because I can talk about these otherscience fiction films that fall into the genre

(23:37):
that were really and truly inspired byStar Wars but didn't become nearly as popular.
There's a reason for that, becausethey're not as good even though I
enjoyed them. Let me put itthis way, if the child who saw
the original trilogy that was me backin the eighties was given the next year
the Phantom Menace or The Force Awakensor The Last Jedi or The Rise of

(24:03):
Skywalker or Solo or Rogue One orAttack of the Clones or Revenge of the
Sith to watch, if we weregiven that follow up movie to the original
trilogy, do you not think thatour little child minds would have been blown
away? Do you really think wewould have been sitting around complaining the way
that a majority of the fandom doesnow. It's like, man, stop

(24:23):
being so spoiled. Even on theirworst days of Star Wars films. It's
better than a vast majority of thescience fiction that we get that. I
also like, Okay, that's whatI'll be doing on the Star Wars show
this week if you want to gocheck it, check it out, all
right? The article wraps up onthis These days, space operas are bigger

(24:45):
than ever for all the hacking,grinding, stinking outward space yarns is the
third time you use that quote.They are. Space operas have a way
of stealing our hearts and imaginations timeafter time, and they have done and
they have done or well over acentury. Look, all in all,
not a bad piece. I justthought it was really interesting how there's quite

(25:06):
a few different quotes from different individualswho this particular writer is deriving the origin
of space opera from. I actuallythink that his origin point for space opera
in this article was completely different thanthe one that I had gone and read
last week. Talk show nerd atgmail dot com. Talk show nerd at
gmail dot com is the email addressand of course, you go to my
nerdworld dot net. As we moveon to the rewatch portion of the show,

(25:29):
I want to remind you if youwant to support the show, the
way to do that is picking upyour preferred copy, whether ebook, paperback
or audiobook of the Embark trilogy availableat Amazon dot com, or if you
prefer, just go to my nerdworlddot net and click the link right there
on the homepage. More details onthat coming up in just a little bit
my nerd World. So something reallyfunny happened and interesting, at least in

(25:56):
my world, when my eighteen yearold sun Logan suggested we watch Titan Ae.
This is a movie that I've hadon DVT on DVD for as long
as I can remember. I don'trecall being like a massive fan of the
film. I just recalled enjoying itand again having options when it comes to

(26:18):
the science fiction that I like towatch. I remember watching it with him
as a kid. I may havegone to see it in the theater.
One thing that really stuck out uponrewatching it was one, it's a space
opera and I hadn't really considered that. Two I think the film inadvertently ended
up influencing me in ways that Ididn't even understand because I'm watching this movie

(26:44):
that I have probably not watched inat least a decade, if not more,
and I'm watching this going, ohmy gosh, I've got elements in
here that are oddly similar to EmbarkAnd I didn't even think of this film
when writing any of these stories.And again, it might be partly because

(27:08):
titan Ae did borrow from a lotof other a lot of other films as
well. So let's get into whatI found an article here, and it
really breaks down a lot of howI feel, and it's kind of the
way that I want to do thingson the show, share with you other
people's opinions, and then add myown as we go along the way.
This article comes from Polygon and itis titled the notorious animated film titan Ae

(27:32):
wasn't supposed to be animated. Thelast film by Fox Animation renders a sci
fi tropes with spectacular art. Thiswas actually written earlier. This article was
written earlier this year, and what'sreally fascinating about it to me is that
while I'm watching it last night withLogan suddenly realized that this would have made
an amazing live action film, andit turns out that that's actually what it

(27:55):
was supposed to be. So itgoes like this, your favorite childhood movie
might have been a total box officedude. The animated movies had to find
our late nineties and early two thousandsare beloved by a generation that grew up
watching them on VHS, But manyof these nostalgic favorites were critical failures,
box office disappointments, or both.What went wrong along the way and why

(28:17):
did they gain such love after thefact, And this is where we get
into titan Ae. Like so manyother studios in the nineteen nineties twentieth century,
Fox wanted to want it in onthe box office gold rush around the
Disney renaissance. Unfortunately, the studiostarted bringing feature animation to the theaters too
late, right at the point whereDisney itself was facing diminishing returns from its

(28:37):
animated musicals. So after distributing afew animated films produced by outside studios,
Fox partnered with former Disney animators DonBluth and Gary Goldman in the back of
the mid nineteen eighties, Bluth andGoldman's Bluth and Goldman's Sullivan Bluth Studios had
given Disney or run for its moneywith movies like An American Tale in the

(28:57):
Land Before Time. While Fox's AnimationAnimation's first theatrical released Anastasia parallel to Disney
formula with its big show stopping musicalnumbers and coming of age stories centered around
a plucky heroine, its next film, the hard to sci fi action story
titan Ae, spun in the completeopposite direction. Just a few weeks after

(29:19):
the film hit theaters to middling reviewsand poor box office returns, Fox Animation
shuttered its operations. And Yet,while titan Ae was much maligned for leaning
too hard on overused science fiction tropes, it was the first taste of grandiose
space adventure for younger audiences, andit earned a special place in a lot

(29:41):
of childhood memories that It was releasedback on June sixteenth of two thousand,
had a projected budget between seventy fiveand ninety million, only brought in thirty
six point eight million dollars. TheRotten Tomato score was fifty one percent.
I'm gonna make one little argument here, this is not a hard, hard
sci fi action story. Whoever wrotethe article of Polygon has their definition of

(30:03):
hard science wrong. Look hard scifi as somebody who writes in a space
opera science fiction genre. For myEmbark novels, I know that hard sci
fi is very specific. And whenwe talk hard sci fi, we're talking
films like The Martian and books likeThe Martian. There's aliens in the story.
I don't necessarily think you can dohard sci fi and aliens. And

(30:29):
even if you could, I stillthink there's too many liberties that are taken
that are taken with this particular pieceof science fiction space opera content to classify
it as hard sci fi. That'sjust my own opinion. There might be
difference, a differences of opinion whenit comes to set a hard sci fi
on the big screen versus in abook. So if this whole time you'ven
scratching your head going, John,I hear you're talking about titan Ae,

(30:52):
But what is it about? Ihave an answer for you. In the
distant future, Earth has been destroyedby a mysterious alien ray called the Dreg,
and humans are dispersed across the galaxy. Dredge the Dredge, But the
Dreg, the Dredge my bad.The Dredge. I just watched it.
You think I should have known thatd R E J. The Dredge salvage

(31:14):
worker Kale played by Matt Damon's voice, learns from spaceship pilot Corso played by
Bill Pullman's voice, that the ringKale inherited from his late father, reveals
the location of a mysterious project designedto save humanity. Kale joins Corso and
his team to find Project Titan andthe Dredge hot on their tail. A
little backstory. Here's the thing aboutTitan AE. It wasn't supposed to be

(31:37):
an animated movie, let alone ananimated Don Bluth movie. While floating around
development of twenty century Fox, thefilm was originally conceived as a live action
feature that would have been Radna shouldstill do it. It never took off,
though, according to Gary Goldman inan interview with Animation World, Fox
Film, the entertainment chairman and CEOBill Mechanic thought the film might look good
in CG. After finishing up awork on the direct to video Anastasia spinoff

(32:02):
Bartalk The Magnificent, the burgeoning Foxanimation department had no current project in the
work, so Tightened Ae landed inits hands. A screenwriter, John August,
came on board the project in ninetyeight, hired to polish the dialogue.
He ended up sticking around for afew weeks longer to work on the
story. Though the project had alreadytransitioned to an animated feature, he says

(32:23):
the studio was still trying to figureout what type of animation it would be.
Even over the four to six weeksthat I was on board the project,
we went from being all traditional animationto completely ceg sort of like Ice
Age animation, to the hybrid thatit became, August told polygon In in
a recent interview. Bluth and Goldmanhad yet to come on the project at

(32:45):
that point. August can't recall thedirector on board at the time, but
he says that he met with theIce Age director, Chris Wedge to discuss
the movie. The development process feltmore like he was working on a live
action project than an animated one,particularly because the studio had no idea how
the final film would look. Whileanimated features tend to have a lot of
back and forth between screenwriters and storyboarders, live action movies tend to be more

(33:07):
linear. Write the script, shoota scene, edit the movie, Goldman
and Bluth joined the project sometime afterAugust departed. Josh Weedon finalizes the script
even further, and neither Goldman norBluth had ever worked on a science fiction
movie before, but they took onthe project regardless. The studio finally solidified
the movie's animation style would be ahybrid of CGI and traditional animation. With

(33:30):
directors on board, a look set, and the script finalized, titan Ae
was ready to take flight. AndI will say that I really enjoy and
they get into it a bit here, but I wanted to add my two
cents. I really do enjoy thelook of this film and the transition that
they do between CGI and traditional animation. If you watch the Gendi Tartakovsky Clone

(33:51):
Wars series that set the stage forthe Clone Wars animated series that we got
seven seasons of, there was atwo D animated basically it was a full
two hours. They were shorts calledClone Wars. They're not available right now,
but you can go and find themon YouTube. But they did a

(34:12):
bit of a hybrid two D animationand CGI mixed in, as did Future
Rama, and I really think TitanAe was one of the first to go
and sort of pave the way forthat type of combination in animation, even
though it quickly faded away and weeither were left with traditional two D or
CG. It does work and playvery well in titan Ae in my opinion.
So now we get to what wentwrong. Unfortunately, if Fox Animation

(34:37):
went through a massive downsizing in nineteenninety nine with more than three hundred staff
members laid off, the entire studioshuttered in two thousand, just a few
weeks after titan Ae came out.I actually think there's another very big reason
that's not mentioned in the article ofwhy this movie was not successful and how
if they made one change, thismovie could become a cult classic upon perhaps

(35:00):
like a rerelease anniversary Blu Ray edition, And I'll explain in a moment.
I think it's gonna be pretty obviousfor those of you that have actually seen
this film what I'm going to bereferring to. Let's see here. The
movie was finished at a handful ofother studios, including Blue Sky Studios,
which went on to make ice htwo years down the line. Because Fox

(35:21):
Animation was basically running on a skeletoncrew during post production, Bluth said at
a twenty ten Animation Nation special eventthat much of the film's promotion and distribution
was halted. Even without production woes, Tighten Ae is a tricky movie to
love. In previous generations of thisseries, we've looked at the split in
the genre in this era of animation, with some films leaning sharply in the

(35:45):
comedic decker A direction while others delvinginto sci fi in action. Titan Ae
is firmly in the latter category.I tend to agree with this, agree
with this even more so than TreasurePlanet or The Iron Giant. It's dark,
it's gritty, and the directors takethe story very seriously. Nay is
a hard science fiction movie. Again, I disagree using animation as a medium

(36:05):
rather than a genre. Well,that doesn't necessarily spell box office doom.
The American mindset and to this day, associates Western animation with a family a
family friendly tone and story. I'dsay it's not a mother friendly movie,
although we haven't left mothers and childrenout, Goldman told The Animation World magazine
in two thousand. There is someswearing, some sexual innuendo. It's intense,

(36:28):
there's a lot of violence. Idon't think anybody under HC this film.
Yeah, and I disagree with that. There is a an adult tone
to it. There's a couple ofmoments between between the two sort of dual
protagonists in the voice characters of MattDamon and Andrew Barrymore. But I actually

(36:50):
appreciate that about the film, andit really isn't anything different than to say
you like Getting in Solo the liveaction film. So again in retrospect,
I don't know when that comment wasmade, but I think might have been
a bit misguided because it is abit adult, but not that adult for
crying out loud. Within three yearsbetween Anastasia and tighten Ae, audience taste
shifted, Disney began to rethink itsown formula, and other studios took a

(37:15):
crack at it too. Tighten atongue swung too hard in the opposite direction
with the very specific goal of beingedgy and cool enough to target twelve and
seventeen year old boys, that unfortunatelyjarred too sharply with audience expectations, even
as audiences tried to figure out whatthey wanted next. Yeah, and that
I can't that part of it,I can't agree with. It does not

(37:35):
fit into the traditional animated style ofmovie that we were getting at the time,
coming from specifically Disney or what otherFox movies they'd done. Right now,
why we love it today. Thearticle goes on to say Titan Ae
came out to mixed reception with criticswho called it a hodgepodge of other science
fiction movies, but one response wasnear universal. It looked great, you

(37:58):
know, and again I just thathodgepole of other science fiction movies. Man,
you could do that. And maybeI take that a bit personally because
I consider, especially Book one inmy Embark series to be a bit of
an homage to the stories that Igrew up on. So while I tried
to include some things that were new, there's a lot of tropes and especially
the lived in universe that I wantedto create that was very much again sort

(38:23):
of an homage, a tribute towhat came before it. And so watching
Titan Ae the other night, evenbefore I read this article, I didn't
even once think that it was stealingfrom other people. I thought there was
some really imaginative set pieces, andthey actually get into that. It looks
so good. It's easy to wonderwhy more science fiction. It's easy to
wonder why more science fiction isn't animated. Titan Ae sticks to a tried and

(38:45):
true expectation of how we imagine humanitywill take to the stars. So locations,
especially the space stations like the Junkyardwhere Koe works at the beginning of
the movie and New Bangkok where dispersedto human drifters have built a colony,
feel lifted from media like Star TrekSpace nine in Babbylon five. But instead
of being rendered with clunky set piecesand special effects that don't hold up after

(39:06):
twenty years, Titanaes animation still seemsfresh, and the planets, ships,
and space scenes look dynamic and captivatingone hundred percent troupe. One of the
most breathtaking moments of the movie happenswhen Ko and pilot Achema navigate through a
planet's icy rings. Corso and histeam are on their tail. It's a
tense, tight chase scene, andAchema steers the ship through the floating blocks

(39:28):
of ice and each ship's or reflectionconfuses the other. It never would have
looked as good in live action.The only cg of the movie that does
sharply seem out of place are thedredge, the alien spent on exterminating humans,
but because their beings made of pureenergy, designed to be mechanical and
lifeness compared to organic humans, theirjarring designs work with the overall thread of

(39:52):
the movie and as they want towipe out humanity. And it's actually totally
true too. And I disagree withthe inability to make that ice scene towards
the end of the film good inlive action. They could totally make that
great in live action. And whenis this article written again? I think
it was? Actually that was thisyear. This was the one that was
okay, whatever, I got aproblem with film school rejects, Carrie and

(40:14):
what's this? Yeah? Whose nameagain? Oh no, that was the
other article. This is from polygondot com. I got a problem with
polygon dot com. Maybe this articleis older. Anyways. A lot of
the alien species and planets look onpar for Bluth and Goldman's previous animated films.
Kale and the team land on themysterious planet where the alien creature resemble

(40:34):
giant bats, almost plucked right outof the duos nineteen eighty two movie The
Secret of Nim, also a fantasticanimated film. Most of Titan aightes ninety
four minute run time is just thecharacters getting from one place to another,
showing off spectacular set pieces like aplanet covered in a rusty red liquid with
hot large hydrogen trees made up oforbs that float and later explode. The
plot isn't particularly groundbreaking and the charactersaren't particularly original, but while are a

(41:00):
bit cliche for science fiction, theyare striking when it comes to mainstream Western
animation. Following more adult characters anddealing with the possible end of humanity as
mankind struggles to find its way ina vast expanse of outer space is a
far cry from the usual Disney musicalcentered on teenagers journeying towards self acceptance and
romance. Certainly, among the biggestcritiques of Titanye was the fact that many

(41:22):
of the plot points, story elements, and characters seemed lifted from science fiction
staples like Star Trek and Battlestore Galactica. Again, I didn't feel that way
at all, but Titanye was thefirst to encounter with the genre. For
a lot of kids. The firsttaste of spaceship chase sequences, the destruction
to planet Earth and humanity venturing intothe grade beyond the Trumps don't play out

(41:44):
as cliche for young viewers experiencing themfor the first time. Instead, they
are fantastical, daring, and cool, the exact takeaway that Fox Animation aimed
for back when the movie was indevelopment. It just took a little extra
time and the studio folding for thatto stick. I will recommend films on
this podcast. I don't normally dothat in my other shows because I don't

(42:05):
like recommending things because stuff is subjective. But I think you're grown ups so
you can figure it out on yourown whether or not you like it.
I really enjoy this film having watchedit again, it's probably going to be
a film that I want to revisit, and interestingly enough, didn't feel the
need to get the Blu Ray.And let me explain this to you really
quick before I give my biggest complaintto the film and why it has not

(42:30):
captured a wider audience and even grownin time, because there's one particular thing
that needs to change in that moviefor it to become a quintessential cult classic,
because I think it has the potential. However, let me say this
really quick about physical media there wasa moment in the early two thousands,
nineties into two thousands when we weregetting DVDs for the first time where you

(42:54):
can still watch those DVDs today onmodern HD televisions and they look okay.
They don't have the clean, pristinelook that a lot of blue rays obviously
have, but they still look reallygood. There was a transition later into
the early two thousands, around twentyten twenty eleven, when the process at

(43:15):
which studios ended up transferring the filmto the disc, and I think it
has a lot to do with thedigital transfer of it. Something got lost
there. So now there's a wholebatch of DVDs that I cannot watch because
the pixelation on it is so bad. And I'll give you a really good
example, actually a couple of them, and they're both from from James Cameron.

(43:39):
James Cameron has not released True Liesor The Abyss on Blu Ray.
Those are two movies that I haveon DVD that I cannot watch on DVD
because they are two pixelated and theylook like garbage. However, older DVDs
still hold up, and I wasfully expecting to put in tighten a the

(44:00):
DVD last night because I am justI am so I don't know if ocd's
the right word or what, butI am so particular about how my films
look. And I put it inand I was shocked and how good it
actually looked. Now, granted,I bet it looks even better at better
in Blu Ray, but at thispoint I was so happy with what I
was watching in terms of quality,being off a DVD that didn't I did

(44:21):
not have a rampant desire to immediatelygo to best buy dot com and see
if they put it out on BluRay. So it still looks that good
on DVD, so you could probablytrack it down if you wanted to.
It is on Amazon Prime and ison some of the streaming services. All
right, before we wrap the showup this week, I do want to
give you my one chief complaint ofTitan AE. And if you've seen the
film, I'm gonna venture, Iguess you probably already guess what it was

(44:45):
and the one thing that they canchange, and it stuck out like a
sore thumb watching it with Logan.They have too many rock songs in it.
For whatever reason, they obviously wantedthis film to appeal to that twelve
to seventeen year olds. I wasworking for an alternative rock station around the
time when this came out, Right, let me double check the date,
let me see here. Well,yeah, it was two thousands, so

(45:07):
yes, I just got done.I just I was just transitioning out of
doing rock radio. For Crying OutLoud, the film is filled with like
three or four different obscure alt rocktunes that just do not work anymore.
And I'm watching it with Logan andI said, man, if they would
go and replace those segments, andthey're mostly montages or action sequences, if

(45:30):
they would go and replace those withsome type of score that's indicative of the
score that's with the film, itwould drastically improve that movie. But the
songs are so jarring that it doesn'truin it, but man, it does
take you out of it for amoment. That's the one thing. If

(45:52):
they would rerelease that as a specialedition and take out those tracks because they
were specifically written for the movie.But in my opinion, they just don't
work. They barely worked when itcame out in two thousand. I think
there's one song in there from VerticalHorizon. If that gives you an idea
of when those songs were made.But I was watching it going, oh
man, this would do so muchbetter, which is a straight up symphonic

(46:14):
score. It doesn't need this altrock soundtrack. It's not necessary because there's
so many cool visuals in it.The action set pieces are great, the
sequences are really really good. Thespace flight stuff is fantastic, The art
direction is great, the vehicle designis spot on. The only thing that

(46:35):
I kind of have an issue withis a bit of the main ship in
the film. But even then,it's got a unique vibe to it that
really does separate it out from whatyou're used to seeing traditionally as the hero
ship. It's got a bit ofa bit of a campy, sort of
Saturday Morning Flash Gordon vibe to it, but I think that was the point.
But the vast majority of the othervehicles in and the locations are just

(46:59):
stunning. Somebody who's a massive fanof vehicles, So check it out if
you haven't. It's worthy of aspace opera. And again, you know,
going back to the comment I madebefore and what I'll be talking about
on Star Wars this week, wereally are as you know, as as
modern day film watchers and sci fifans. I think there's a lot of
people that are just way too spoiled. It's nice to go back, though

(47:22):
and revisit some of these gems andsort of realize, you know, some
of these properties out there that couldhave made for some really spectacular series if
they had just gotten more attention atthe time. So I would definitely go
and encourage you to watch Titan Ae'to quick watch. It's only about ninety
minutes, but it really really is. It really really is enjoyable and kind
of like what I said with JupiterAscending, even if you don't like it,

(47:45):
you're still gonna walk away having hada good time, even though you
may not want to go and watchit again. Um quick programming note,
I'm gonna ditch off for now thetop ten Amazon Space Opera books only because
that top ten list doesn't change allthat often. So I'd rather focus on
when there are new releases that Iwant to go and talk about that I've
had the opportunity to read, ratherthan just randomly throwing out, you know,

(48:07):
books that are up on Amazon inthe space opera category. But what
else would you like to hear?In any comments that you have on the
show, Email me Talk show nerdat gmail dot com. Again, talk
show nerd at a gmail dot com. That's where you can drop me an
email, and again let me knowwhat you think of the of the show.
Any thoughts or comments, topic ideasas well, I can take those

(48:30):
at the website. All right,Before we wrap it up, we do
have a listener feedback to get you. Jen g listener of the Star Wars
podcast, email me Talk show Nerdat gmail dot com and says, I
agree, John. Opera is emotional, So space opera is not just fantasy
and space because it needs an emotionalcontent, and I love space opera.

(48:51):
I tend to lean more towards themore emotional. Ones like Starshift Troopers don't
really resonate with me, So oneslike Starshift Troopers don't really resonate with me,
but again that's just me. Oneof my favorites not on your list
is Serenity. Oh We're gonna getto Serenity. Don't don't, don't,
don't, don't you worry about that? And the short lived series Firefly.
I haven't watched Jupiter Ascending yet,but I'm gonna watch it now. I

(49:13):
loved the Alien series, so hopefullyI'll get to watch Raised by Wolves a
good podcast, John, I likehow adaptable you get when the Star Wars
universe is kind of kind of slow. And these aren't two separate podcasts by
the way, this is the SpaceOpera podcast and the Star Wars podcast.
But gen Gi, thank you somuch for the email. I appreciate it.
All right, Um, before Ilet you go, gonna pimp my

(49:36):
books for just a moment um beforeI do that, though, Remember started
the show, I mentioned the allnew social networking platform, and this week's
episode is brought to you by Zone. You can get more information about this
brand new social media outlet launching soon, all in one social media alternative our
Zone dot Zone. That's oure zonedot Zone. Also, as I'm mentioned

(50:00):
earlier, you can support the showby picking up if you're a reader or
you have friends or family that arereaders. The Embark science fiction space opportrilogy,
written by John Justice, available nowin ebook, paperback, and audiobook
at Amazon dot com. Search forJohn jo N. Justice or go to
my nerdworld dot net. For thosethat are unfamiliar, here is a bit

(50:22):
about Embark. Book one, TheGreat Evacuation for Earth. The end is
near. Only a reluctant hero andthe girl he loves have the power to
save humanity's future. It's the notso distant future, and car culture is
replaced by air and space flight,made possible by two of Earth's largest corporations.

(50:46):
Flight mechanic tapped Guardia spends his freetime racing through the skies with his
three best friends and the girl helongs to be with, headstrong Kaith.
Tomorrow, with the planet on thebrink of an industrial apocalypse, a powerful
and ruthless corporate badman sent Argham movesto exploit the disaster with his covertly created

(51:07):
military. When Taft, Katha andtheir friends uncover a shocking secret, sin
Argham will stop at nothing to findthem. Time on Earth is running out,
but with the help of a ragtaggroup of young pilots, they'll fight
for Humanity's future and survival among thestars. Again my Nerdworld dot net,

(51:29):
you can get more details about allthree of the opening trilogy. Book four
will be coming out in the nextfew months, and I'm currently in the
process of writing book five, whichI cannot wait to finish. Enjoy the
rest of the week. I hopeyou'll check out a Star Wars podcast dropping
on Saturday. I will be announcingthe winners of the Embark Signed Book giveaway.

(51:49):
If you have not entered yet,you have an opportunity to win a
complete set of Embark paperbacks signed byyours truly. Also third and fourth place
prizes will win autograph copies of thefirst edition of the Embark Book one paperback.
Go to minordworld dot net and clinkthe click the link on the home
page. You have until midnight tonight, that's Friday, to get yourself registered

(52:14):
and I'll be doing the drawing ontomorrow's show. You do not have to
listen to win, and shipping isfree. All right, that's it.
I gotta run, I gotta gobuy pizza and go watch them TV and
some NASCAR racing tonight. Have afantastic week. I hope that you were
healthy, I hope that you weresafe, and I'm so glad you checked
out the show. Talk to youagain next week, my nerd World