January 18, 2025 • 55 mins
Kahn obtained a BA in 1980 and MD in 1983 from the University of Michigan. He is a Clinical Professor of Medicine at Wayne State University School of Medicine and Associate Professor of Medicine at Oakland University William Beaumont School of Medicine.[2] He is the founder of the Kahn Center for Cardiac Longevity in Bingham Farms, Michigan.[2] Kahn is a Fellow of the American College of Cardiology and a member of the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine.He has authored articles for HuffPost and the Reader's Digest
Kahn has been a vegan since 1977. He promotes a whole-food plant-based diet consisting of fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts, seeds and whole grains to prevent chronic disease.During his lifetime he aims to prevent a million heart attacks. He has commented that "there is no more effective way to prevent and reverse heart disease than eating a plant-based diet naturally low in oils, sugar, and salt."He has noted from measuring the blood and skin levels of his patients that both omnivores and vegans are frequently low in vitamin B12, iodine, omega-3, taurine and vitamin K2 and that vitamin supplements can provide the correct amounts.He advises his patients to support healthy nitric oxide levels by getting more exercise and juicing.He has credited Caldwell Esselstyn and Dean Ornish as influencing his work.
Kahn has been a vegan since 1977. He promotes a whole-food plant-based diet consisting of fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts, seeds and whole grains to prevent chronic disease.During his lifetime he aims to prevent a million heart attacks. He has commented that "there is no more effective way to prevent and reverse heart disease than eating a plant-based diet naturally low in oils, sugar, and salt."He has noted from measuring the blood and skin levels of his patients that both omnivores and vegans are frequently low in vitamin B12, iodine, omega-3, taurine and vitamin K2 and that vitamin supplements can provide the correct amounts.He advises his patients to support healthy nitric oxide levels by getting more exercise and juicing.He has credited Caldwell Esselstyn and Dean Ornish as influencing his work.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Good morning everyone. This is Michelle Hughes from Ageless and Timeless. Today,
my guest is a world renowned cardiologist, and since heart
attacks are still stubbornly remaining the most frequent cause of
death in the world and particularly in our country, this
is really a very important podcast. I want everybody to
(00:31):
take a notepad and listen really really carefully, and watch carefully.
Doctor Joel con is well, he's so famous that I
want him to tell us all his accomplishments in just
a moment.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
But welcome, doctor con.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Thank you very much. I'm not so famous when I
walk in the door at the end of the day,
I'm just Joel.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
But that's all right, Well, that's okay. You're very humble.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
But I see you all over the internet and I
and I've read a lot of your works and a
lot of your watched a lot of your interviews, including
Jill Rogan and Gosh, I think you were on a
number of others were Who else have you been on?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Like Larry King, A lot of a lot of Larry King,
a lot of Doctor Phil, a lot of The Doctor's
Show when The Doctors Show was running. So I had
a fun that will run in Hollywood, but it's all
a little different now.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
So you are located not in Hollywood anymore, far far
away from that.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
You're in Michigan, right, I'm in suburban Detroit. That's I
was born and raised, and I'm one of those people.
I actually like it here.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Wow, that's incredible. Well, listen, we're all looking forward to
this new chapter in our medical health history. We hope
if Robert F. Kennedy gets confirmed. How do you feel
about about him and about the changes that you're very
very optimistic.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Of course, there's been no national conversation about upgrading the
national health so it's all new. I just wrote an article.
I like everything he's talking about, but he isn't talking
about hard health. So hopefully he read my articles since
I tagged him on Twitter. But you know, I'm sure
I'm not the only person who's tried to do that.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, I would love to read that article.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Is it possible for me to get you to send
me a copy?
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Okay, you have, I'll put it in the chain in
the chat chat right on what we're doing right now.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Excellently.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Well, So tell everybody that's watching today, the lucky ones
that are watching, and those that will be tuning in later.
Who are you? I mean, where where did you start?
How did you make this journey? And how did you
step where you are?
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Yeah, short little summary, not to take up any unnecessary
time from people. But I grew up in suburban Detroit.
I thought I was headed to a family retail business.
I fell in love with biology. I also had a
little heart murmur as a child, so my mother had
a father had to take me to a pediatric cardiologist,
(03:16):
so I actually had a little exposure to this field.
Thought it was pretty interesting, and by about age fifteen,
I said I'm going to grow up to be a
cardiologist and quickly got into University of Michigan Medical School
a couple of years ahead of schedule, which was very nice,
and along the way got prematurely interested in nutrition, so
(03:38):
I adopted a whole food plant based Some people would
use the word vegan diet when I was eighteen years old,
and it's forty seven, forty eight years later and I've
kept that up. That's one of the few people on
the planet can say. I'm not saying it's right or wrong,
but it's what I do. I haven't had a piece
of chicken or a slice of cheese or glass of
(03:59):
milk and forty eight years and I am alive and
well and I'm not in the protein degency ward. So
my medicool training was in cardiology, I know, my medical training,
and I went on to Dallas, Texas and Kansas City
and then I came back to Michigan and I practiced
in Michigan since nineteen ninety. At first conventional cardiology, cathlab cardiology,
(04:22):
heart attack cardiology is wonderful, based about twenty five years,
but the last ten years have been all all all
nutrition and there I just let the younger guys years
(04:42):
and years and I have a very very vibrant practice.
I am in Detroit, but I'm licensed and I think
twenty seven states, so I see people from coast to
coast and actually have I'm not dumb at this age.
I have an office in Boca Raton, Florida for the winner.
So I just pick up move down there and keep
on working in person and in zoom. So people see
(05:06):
me and we also you know, do rely on zoom.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Well, so that that means telemedicine is.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
A big party around the country.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Yeah, so telemedicine is a big part of your practice.
Joe doctor con.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Yeah. Pretty typically to about two o'clock in the afternoon,
it's all live patients and then use it from two
o'clock that I finish. It's all tell the medicine. A
lot of new ones I don't know, California, Florida, New York, Pennsylvania, Texas, Illinois,
you know, all over and it kind of works out
(05:44):
really well for what I do, A lot of education,
even ordering testing all over the country. Uh, it works
very well.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
So what I start to say is that we talked
about Dean Ornige and the fact but you know, I
told you he lived right next door to me in Sasulito.
I live in Tibron there, you know, both in county.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Aren't you lucky to live in such a beautiful place
in one of the hottest real estate markets in America?
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Well, I don't know if you if I told you,
but I am a real estate developer. But it's not
an accident that I lived in beautiful places. I've had
just quickly. My development projects have been in Hawaii and
Aspen and California, So I'm lucky enough. I did do
one project in Las Vegas, but that was just a
(06:35):
one off and mostly you know, twenty five years of
development in you know, beautiful places like California and Hawaii
and Colorado.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
So it's not an accident.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
I picked those places because they fit me and my
lifestyle of you know, wanting to create beauty no matter
where I go, both in inner beauty and outer beauty.
And that's another reason why health and wellness are such
an important part of my life. And staying healthy forever
until that day comes is a big you know, it
(07:11):
is one of the biggest challenges I think in human experience.
But it isn't impossible, and you are an example. And
that's why today we're going to talk about how we
can protect not only the heart, because the heart is
affecting other organs in the body. Or you can say
the gental health is affecting the heart, you know. So
(07:32):
you know, one thing that everybody needs to know is
that this is not just one organ that does the
bad things happen.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
It's integrated.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
And I think it's amazing to find someone like you
that's been practicing integrative functional cardiology for all these years,
and you know, not everybody knows about that approach. Most
people go to the more allopathic approach. If they have
a heart heart attack. Is that how you see it?
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Yeah? Yeah, you know right, standard medicine puts You know,
it does a lot of things well, and when you're
in trouble, when you're having an heart attack, when you're
having a ruptured appendix, you know it does things well.
But in terms of actually asking why and what can
we do to prevent the next episode, or more poorly,
what can we do to prevent getting sick in the
(08:25):
first place, you know, it's not as strong. And I've
taken a lot of extra training to have the ability
to talk to patients intelligently about nutrition and sleep and
stress and environmental toxins and fitness of course, and of
(08:47):
course the rare patient that still smokes. I had one
of them today, rare patient that still smokes. Not too
many either they do it or will come to a
cardiology office in a minute.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
So kick ustry program.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Let's say I'm your patient and I you know, I
have some symptom let's say a high blood pressure, and
I want you to help me to reduce the blood
pressure in a functional medicine approach, because you know some
of your patients I'm sure already on the path, like
I am, how do you guide them? What's what are
(09:23):
the steps if we were starting a program together.
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Speaker 3 (10:11):
Well. You know, one of the joys of what I
do is I do have a little more time sixty
to ninety minutes blocked out with a brand new patient,
and I'm going to end that period. I don't I
don't have them fill out forms. I talk and I
listen like really careful notes. But by the time you know,
forty five minutes into that, I'm going to know what breakfast, lunch,
(10:34):
dinner snacks, what time you're eating them, where you're eating them.
I'm going to know about what time you go to bed,
and what happens during the night, would you take to
go to sleep, and whether you snore, whether your significant
others says you snore? Restless you are? You know your
gym time, your standing time, you're sitting time. You know,
did you work in a paint factory. Do you spray
(10:55):
round up on your roses? You know all kinds of
when's the last time you went to the dentist and
what they say, and what your dental oral hygiene and
you you know, rinse your mouth with scope and listerine
which actually can raise blood pressure versus a natural non bacteriocytal.
You know, oral rints if you do want to use one,
(11:16):
and of course all your supplements, prescription medicines. Many patients
have extensive prior testing. More and more they're ready ordering
these big lab panels you can order for cash, like function,
Health and Life Force or life extension and all that's
fine with me. The more I have before meeting, the better,
(11:38):
and then you know it's nailing down, you know, on
the cores of lifestyle. Usually if they haven't had extensive
blood work. We need extensive blood work. I tend to
order from Quest, but again people bring me really extensive
lab work too. It's fine. Sometimes we need imaging. If
we're talking about in this case of hypertension, it's really
(12:00):
standard cardiology. Most don't do it. You should have an
echo cardiogram if you have a history of high blood
pressure to look for an enlarged or thickened heart, which
ups the risk significantly and determines the need for more
aggressive therapy. You know, certainly if you've also had atrial
fibrillation or something with your high blood pressure, it's definitely
(12:23):
more risky. We made need imaging of the kidney arteries.
There are not many, but some people have one kidney
not too they don't know about it. Some people have
a shrunk in kidney, they don't know about it. So
it's again that's pretty standard medicine, but it's not often done.
So I will make sure we're very thorough. We can't
throw out all the conventional learning, and it's just that
(12:44):
we don't actually order these tests that we should. I'm
going to make sure there's no protein in the urine
that again a much higher risk blood pressure patient of
this protein in the urine, which can be reversible, might
grow album area. You're very rarely going to reach for
a prescription pad for a drug and an initial blood
(13:05):
pressure evaluation, and let's it's just out of sight. You know,
if you're over two hundred one, you got to have
a home blood pressure cuff. You have to You've got
to commit to exercising twenty to thirty minutes a day.
I don't care if you walk, probably not walk a dog.
That's not much of a walk in my experience. I
have a dog, I have three of them. Well, you
know you're going to need to, you know, get on
(13:27):
a treadmill, get on a bike, do weight training. I
do pilates, do yoga. I'd like you to have an
infrared sauna. That's not really inexpensive, but you might find
a wellness center or a local gym you can get
an infrared sauna. Proven published research at University Kansas that
infrared sauna therapy lowers blood pressure naturally. If you've got
(13:48):
sleep pathology, we're gonna, you know, refer you to a
sleep medicine dentist or a sleep medicine MD, and we're
going to talk about you know, sleeping on your side
and maybe taping your mouth. If it's very mild pathology.
We don't take the mouth of its serious pathology. People
that breathe through their nose make more nitric oxide. Nitric
oxide lowers blood pressure. I'm really going to talk about food.
(14:12):
We can start with the DASH diet, which is DASH
the dietary approach to stop hypertension, keep the Mediterranean diet
on a lower salt approach, and you know, we're going
to really emphasize plant based foods. There's no doubt hole
plant based foods, not process plant based foods. Blood pressure
better than any other diet. Olive oil instead of butter.
(14:35):
Not that that's a major blood pressure change, but you know,
leafy greens, pomegranates, watermelon, pine nuts, while nuts, these things
lower blood pressure, particularly if they're more raw whole forms.
So sleep fitness nutrition. If there's a weight issue, I'm
not rushing to Ozepic and Moonjyro, but you know, we
(14:56):
may have to discuss them. If there's you know, eighty
extra pounds above well, I'd like the doctor Vaulter Longo
prolon fasting mimicking diet five day program. We can lose weight,
people can lower their biologic age. It's not a guarantee
it's going to lower your blood pressure, but it is
a good training session for five days once a month
(15:18):
for three months, people learn a little bit more about
portion control, They learn to recognize what hunger feels like.
They put themselves into a mild ketosis and as opposed
to water fasting, Actually water fasting will drop your blood pressure,
but you know you're not going to function very well.
If you're doing a water fast. You can work a
full day and not you know, disrupt your life doing
(15:39):
the prol on five day fasting them can diet. Yeah.
I love supplements for blood pressure. Garlic lowers blood pressure,
aged odorless garlic coenzyme Q ten. These have big science
lots of magnesium unless you have kidney disease. And then
there's so many others from olive leaf extract to vitamin
C to touring lowers blood pressure and had some antiaging evidence.
(16:07):
Those are probably the biggest ones that I used around here.
But all that ados on. There's actually an interesting Indian
herbal vitamin, very inexpensive. Nobody's ever heard of it called
mook Devadi m u k T A here behind me,
I don't know somebody mouk devadi and.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Wait, let me let me write it. M u k
e a yeah, I t a vody. What is that?
I've never heard of that.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
It's a herbal combination that's formulated just for blood pressure lowering.
It's got some Ashawa Ganda and other herbs. But boy,
and my patient's given me positive feedback in the last
five years withoutout going to a prescription drug.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
You know, how did you find out about it?
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Something I read? I read, I read, I read, and
I think somewhere in a textbook I read about it.
It's ordered it, it's available, and I listened to the patients.
They loved it. Yeah, you know, and you know, we
got to talk about stress management. So we're going to
talk about some strategy that isn't tequila, you know and
(17:14):
chips at night. We're going to talk about, you know,
stress management through maybe four seven eight, breathing box, breathing yoga,
I like heart math, which is a little device that
helps you breathe and relax and has a lot of
public science. So that's you know, where we're going to start,
and then we're going to have to retest come back.
(17:34):
You know people need a home blood pressure cough. Before
talking about this specific topic, you can numbers over time.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Sorry to interrupt me. What do you consider to be
outside the range?
Speaker 1 (17:46):
I know on'e twenty over eighty is the you know,
the ideal. But where do you draw a line to
be high blood blow, you know, hypertension.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Let's say, what.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
A little more permissive in the elderly. You know, on
the one hand, you don't want to be lax about
blood pressure and somebody eighty eight years old and risk
a stroke. But on the other hand, I don't want
to overtreat them and have them stand up off the toilet,
you know, and be risk of passing out. So it's
a little balance at a little art there. And it's
(18:20):
also I'm going to treat a little more aggressively if
the heart's and large, if there's kidney issues, if there's
protein in the urine, if there's issues of congestive heart
failure or shortness of breath. I mean, I'm going to
treat a little bit more aggressively in those settings. If
there's coronary art disease, which all my patients have had
(18:41):
some kind of screening testing for coronary art disease.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
So you and I are both members of A four M,
and when we go to the conference, which I assume
you'll be going in another week or so, as I
will be in Vegas too, and hopefully we'll get to
meet in person there. So I just when you're in there,
are you familiar with some of the testing that's being
done by some of the vendors in the exhibition hall.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
I visit them all. I haven't seen anything incredible for
high blood pressure, but if you're thinking about something, let
me know.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Well, I was just wondering.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
You know, I have done with them, and this is
just me, but I'm sure a lot of other people
who've been to A four M done these tests.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
And one is the Hue light Hue light, and they.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Have a test called the A and S which is
the autonomic nervous system test that tests your heart function.
Are you familiar with that one?
Speaker 3 (19:39):
I'm familiar. I actually can claim if you look at
my curriculum VITE I did research on heart v variability
back in the nineteen eighties. Wow, there's quite a few
papers on it. Before it was something built into your
sleep ring or your sleep watch and all the rest.
(20:00):
Hue device I'm not immediately seeing a light bulb go off.
But you know, in an ideal world, we would do
more autonomic nervous system testing, and you know, the poor
man's way to do it is have a watch or
a device that does heart rate variability testing, which is
pretty much the same thing. But it's actually quite challenging
(20:22):
to get really really good autonomic nervous system testing. And
if you're not going to get really good numbers, it's
not we're doing it all. The other device you mentioned
isn't ringing a bell?
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Actually, well, doctor Mitch again, you know him? Yeah, yeah,
he's the scientific advisor for Hugh Light. So he's many
guests on my podcast. And I see that both of
you are on the board.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Of the Life Extension. I saw your bio there.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
I've never met doctor again, the second person in twenty
four hours to bring him up. I think my mother
is going to act. You see him and I practiced
in Boca Raton in the winter too, So thank you
for reminding me to make an introduction to him.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Well, I'm happy to do that, but I'm sure you
can do it on your own. But he's been a
guest on our podcast and certainly you can look him
up as the interview was done about I think a
month and a half ago.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
Perfect.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Yeah, So if you go to Ageless and time was
on either my website or on YouTube, just typing doctor
Mitchell again, he'll come up.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
So, yeah, it was a really great interview and he's.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Very, very accomplished, just as you are. So Okay, back
to the discussion of the protocols. You said so many things,
and it was so in depth and so thorough that
I'm sure a lot of people are saying, I've never
heard that I would have to do all of that
and get to where I want to be.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
So well, the backdrop, just to remind people why is
he talking about so much, is actually, statistically more people
die in the world related to high blood pressure than
any other single diagnosis. Now, high blood pressure leads to
coordinary art disease, heart attack, strokes, and aneurysm rupture, so
(22:12):
you know, there is a connection with the more common
statistic that everybody hears that art disease is the number
one killer of men and women. And that's true, but
we should be very vigilant about high blood pressure and
try and add its root cause you know, corrected and all, well.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
That's why they call it the silent killer, right me.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
I agree, I agree.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Well, okay, so what about hormones, how do they affect
I'm just using high blood pressure. Of course, there's so
many other aspects of heart disease, but this is just
to give people an idea because it is a very
common problem in particularly in people over fifty that you know,
historically may have had very normal blood pressure, but suddenly
it changes.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
So that's why I use that.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
One as an exam both for our discussion today, knowing
that people are going to realize that your practice is
much broader and encompasses many, many more issues relating to
heart disease. But let's just go back to the you know,
the high blood pressure and the hormones. What effect do
hormones have on your blood pressure?
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Yeah, in the standard medical world, we should be considering
hormonal causes of high blood pressure, but we're usually focusing
on al dosterone, rehenon hormones released by the kidneys, the
adrenal grant gland, and the rest. And that's very important.
(23:40):
And you know, certainly if you have a clue, like
a page with high blood pressure who has a low
potassium level, in the blood not related to taking a
strong diuretic. You should look that pasient up for an
abnormal al doosterone level. When you talk about sex hormones,
which I think you know is going to come to
mind more commonly not as clear cut. There's no doubt
(24:04):
that a woman going through menopause who might start to
sleep poorly, might start to be challenged by weight gain,
might be tired and neworking out quite as hard that
woman is at risk for developing high blood pressure. And
measuring and addressing and replacing hormones as soon as you
can in relationship to menopause is very smart. Again. Men
(24:31):
and testosterone. I mean, if you were to identify low
testosterone and treat it, I wouldn't necessarily expect to see
blood pressure improve. The possibility that it's a secondary benefit.
They feel better, they're going to the gym more, they're
working out and becoming you know, more lean muscle mass
and less visceral fat. There may be, you know, that
(24:53):
their route for improving their blood pressure getting them more
health conscious. They're just feeling better, But it's not as
important of a connection.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
But I hear so much about estrogen and thyroid being
two positive factors with respect to blood pressure management. So
talk about those for a moment.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
For those two.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Yeah, Thyroid again not strongly linked, you know there of
course is just generally hypo low thyroid. And again people
may be fatigued, cold, dried skin, hair falling out at all.
I mean again, secondarily, if they don't feel well until
they get their hype both irodism corrected, they may become,
(25:38):
you know, somewhat overweight and blood pressure may go up secondarily,
but it's not a main driver. It's not a major
driver of high blood pressure.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
If you're taking synthroid or arm armor or nature stroid,
the natural forms or or even the synthetic coin that
those are not going to have your blood pressure.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
They usually do not. There's usually not a one to
one connection.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Ok.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Good, Okay, And thats hoones are thyroid hormones. Now again Cortisol.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Yeah, that's what I was going to ask next.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
You know, and that's again somebody's sleeping poorly, work, stress, family,
stress diets off and they have you know, they running
high cortisol levels. There's no doubt that can lead to
an elevated blood pressure. And managing their stress, their sleep,
their diet, which they.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Can take be taking data as well, and does data
have any effect on I know it has an effect
on cortisol, but does it have an effect on blood pressure?
Speaker 3 (26:45):
Yeah? No, not directly, certainly not a concern and also
not a therapy.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Okay, so Joe, let's go into the discussion of the
labs because I think people really want to know when
I go to take a blood test and I'm you know,
a healthy individual, but I'm going to go do my
annual physical, what in your you're my doctor, what are
the labs that you're going to request other than the
standards you know, CDC and all that.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
But the ones that have particularly focused on the heart.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
It's a big panel and you know it's going to
be everything if you think about what does uh? If
I were an internal medicine doctor at your annual physical,
I'm going to get it's called a CBC with differential
at your hemoglobe, and I'm going to get your comprehensive
metabolic panel vitamin D. I think most internests will do that, right.
(27:38):
You know, it's got a history. You've got a thyroid panel,
though it's usually a pretty short thyroid panel. My thyroid
panel is all the hormones and all the antibodies, and
a more of a functional messine thyroid panel. Plus I
like to speak an iodine level, usually urinide. But but
I'm going to get every inflammation marker on the planet,
high sensitivity C reactive protein mile, low peroxidase stone as MPO,
(28:03):
lpp LA two, which is there's no way to pronounce
it other than those. It's a well known cardiovascar inflammation test.
They're very importantly. I'd love to see a blood test
for Omega three blood levels I practice number one most
common nutrition deficiency. It's not vitamin D, it's Omega three
(28:25):
being extremely low. Only a few people really pound down
a lot of salmon or fish oil capsules have a
really level over five.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
But what you mostly hear about is magnesium as being
one of the most common deficiencies in.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Human beings.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Now you hear about that, I gotta tell you every
patient gets a red blood cell magnesium in my practice,
and I don't think one in one hundred comes back
towards a low end of normal or below normal. But
thirty to forty to fifty percent of my patients have
a low will make a three level, and there is
good data. Blood pressure drops with repleting you know, Omega
(29:06):
three levels. It might drop with vitamin D, and it
will drop with repleting low magnesium levels. But I don't know.
Maybe I just have a lot of patients eating nuts
and seeds and greens, so their magnesium levels are are
already pretty good naturally, or that comes to me, they're
ready on magnesium. You know that one they know about
(29:26):
because it got tested beyond that. Of course, I'm a cardiologist.
I want to complete advanced cholesterol panel usually called an
NMR light boat profile, but certainly everybody's got to have.
You have to have a blood test called light boat
protein little A also is LP little A. Y tab
(29:47):
in the world offers it. It's maybe a thirty dollars
simple blood test. You don't have to be fasting, and
twenty five percent of people inherit the ability in their
liver to make a lot of light boat protein little A.
And it's the cause of premature stroke, cart attack, death,
and an a ordic foul disorder. And there's increasing therapies
for dealing with it because the therapies we're dealing with
(30:08):
standard cholesterol don't work for lipoprotein little A.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
But and what about lipoprotein little B.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
Well, there's ApoB. There's apo B, which is a simple
test that I add on in everybody as one more
way to measure adequate cholesterol control or inadequate cholesterol control,
which is mainly in people that have athroscoratic heart disease.
(30:36):
Those are the ones, you know that I'm really focusing
on all that. If you have good arteries, I'm less concerned.
You know, insulin resistant tests, you know, fasting glucose. If
I can get somebody fasted hemoglobin A one C, I
like to see it. Fasting, insulin level are all important.
(30:58):
Oh and I think we talked about you know, and
then hormones. You know, we talked about hormones.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Well, okay, so but here's the thing that one of
the biggest I think the biggest scams in American health
is cholesterol. I think that too many people, This is
just me observing that just seems too many people are
prescribed statins that don't really need statins.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
And do you feel that similarly about that issue?
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Well, and doubtedly you're right, because you know, the conversation
is typically John or Jane, you know your cholesterol's two
hundred and forty or l d l's one hundred and sixty.
I think you should go on this prescription for lipator
and it's usually you know, for life. But what is
missing in that equation and what has been suggested twenty
(31:46):
years ago but is now really a high level recommendation
even the American Heart Association, is take that asymptomatic person
and test their arteries. This was actually proposed forty years ago.
So how do you test arteries? And the implication being
that if you test and have clean or nearly clean arteries,
(32:06):
you don't need prescription drugs. And if you have very
advanced silent art disease. Of course, we're not talking people
who've had heart attacks or a bypass surgery. We're talking
to the general public who believe they're fine. If you
have diseased arteries, you need very aggressive everything dietary therapy,
fitness therapy, sleep therapy, and you may end up needing
(32:28):
you know, prescription drugs if you can't beat it. So
there is a simple CT scan of the heart called
a coronary artery calcium CT scan. I recommend every adult
get one right away if you've never had one. It
takes about ten seconds. Every hospital does it but you
have to get a prescription, generally from a doctor for
(32:49):
a coronary artery calcium CT scan, nothing injected, nothing injected,
no allergies, no pain, no glaustrophobia. And if your heart
arteries on that test come back a zero, you are
in great shape. And if your arteries come back with
a lot of silent disease, you got to get together
(33:11):
with somebody and you got to, you know, really start
looking at the issue of why do I have heart disease,
what's the root cause, and what do I do about it,
which is what I do in my office every day
all over the country. So those people may need a stating.
But when you go back to all the literature going
back to the nineteen eighties on lipitur and crustore, we
(33:31):
never really segregated. We're not going to treat those with
clean arteries. There's really no logic for that, and we're
just going to limit aggressive treatment for those that have
silent and advanced disease to prevent the future. So I
agree with you that means a lot of people are
being treated that don't need to be treated.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Well, because cholesterol is actually good if it's the right kind.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Because it's nourishing it. Well, first it comes from the liver,
and if the liver is not toxic and it's producing
healthy cholesterol, and then that cholesterol else feeding the brain,
which so much of the brain is cholesterol, is cholesterol based.
Then having a higher cholesterol number, let's just say the
two thirty or two forty number you mentioned, as long
(34:14):
as it's not LDL and it's not blocking arteries and
it's doing good for those other those organs, isn't that
actually a misnomer that you should be below two hundred.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Well, the step one in my world is what's the
status of your arteries? Okay, I want to know if
you're developing. And the other way you can do it
is you do you have two beautiful arteries going up
to the brain called kate. They're ideal for a simple
Ultrasoundies don't need prescription treatment. Parties need a serious, you know,
(34:52):
conversation on that topic. So the brain makes its own cholesterol.
So when you're measuring blood cholesterol of two forty or
one twenty, that's not brain colesterol. The brain is sitting
there making whatever it wants. So we aren't really seeing
dementia from lowering cholesterol. It's certainly a common topic on Twitter,
(35:15):
but when you really knock down the literature, you're not
seeing we're not ruining brains by lowering cholesterol. But I
deal with that every day in the clinic. People today.
You know, my functional medicine doctor hates my cholesterol level.
I hate your eighty percent blockages and your arteries. Got
to come to some recognition that you know, yeah, I
(35:38):
think you're going to die of a heart attack where
you're ever going to die a dementia, even though there
isn't actually much data for dementia from lowering cholesterol at all.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
Oh that's interesting to know.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Yeah, So the HDL, the LDL, the ratio, what should
what should it be to be if you're getting if
you're passing the test when your in your clinic.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
In my world, it should be banished and not discussed.
The reason is it was very simple in the nineteen
seventies that low HDL cholesterol is bad, increases risk, the
l cholesterol is good, protects the heart. But in the
last fifteen years there's many, many studies that it's sort
(36:23):
of a U shaped curve. We call it a medicine.
Low HDL may raise the risk of athroscratic heart disease.
But a high HDALE, particularly in a woman, is not benign,
and a high HDL can actually cause atheroskrosis. The last
patient I saw today before we went on this conversation
(36:45):
is a sixty six year old, delightful woman who has
the most corner disease of any woman in my practice.
And her HDL is one hundred and fifty. Oh, we
just went over our labs and it's not due to
medical She genetically runs this crazy high HDL and we
have no therapy for it. But you would normally say,
(37:08):
my god, you got enough HDL cluster for three women.
You must have the clean assarities on the planet. And
indeed it's the opposite.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Interesting, So the ratio of HTL to LDL means nothing
to you because that HDL could skew.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
That's right. If one of the portions of the ratio
isn't reliably predictive, then how can the ratio be predicted?
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Uh huh, very interesting.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
So these scans that are available, I've done the calcium
score ultrasound and it was completely normal, so I was
really happy about that.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
But that's just like an ABC primer of knowing more
in depth of what's going on. Is that not correct?
Speaker 1 (37:50):
It's like going to kindergarten for your heart condition. But
there are so many other cutting edge not lasers, but
scanning devices today, and I see that you're using. You
mentioned one earlier.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
I didn't recognize the name, but the ll whatever.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
So what actually for the issue of detecting? I feel
good I played pickleball, but my neighbor just had a
heart attack and she plays pickleball too. How do I know?
I mean, yeah, you may want to arrange an ultra
sound of your crowded arteries fairly, but the real heart tests, see,
(38:30):
and it requires CT scanning. MURI has some role in
heart evaluation, but not for clogged arteries, and ultrasound has
some role in heart evaluation but not for clogged heart arteries.
So you either got to do the corn artery calcium
CT scan, which takes five seconds and costs about one
(38:50):
hundred dollars, or you want a more advanced test if
there's a reason for it. And I order a lot
of this advanced test, but I'm very selective and who
I order it for. There is a test called a
coronary calcium CT aigram. The keyword is antigram. It's just
(39:13):
like lying down to get that one hundred dollars CT
but they inject iodine. Iodine is not radioactive, but it
makes you feel hot. It fills the arteries. And you
can make very very advanced pictures with a coronary ct andigram,
and you can tell that's twenty percent block, that's forty
(39:33):
two percent block, that's seventeen percent block, you can tell
what it's blogged up with, and at the end of
the day you get a very very advanced evaluation. This
has been available for about four years with artificial intelligence interpretation,
which has just transformed cardiology, certainly transformed my practice. But
(39:54):
it's a fifteen to eighteen one hundred dollars test. It's
a little more radiation than simple calcium scan. You can't
be allergic to iodine. Some people are allergic to aidine,
so there's a few people can't get it. But if
in my practice, if you want to know in the
most advanced detail what's going on with my hard art reason,
(40:16):
there's a reason there's that advanced ct ajagram. But if
you do the simple one hundred dollars one and you
come back zero. I'm very happy to work with you
without prescription drugs, just on lifestyle and we'll end up
in good shape.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
And so that is that done?
Speaker 3 (40:33):
A quest or where do you go to have something
that's got to be done at a CT imaging center?
Ye might be your hospital, it might be a freestanding
CT center, and there's a lot of freestanding CT centers.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Well, when we're at a form in December, I want
to take you. I want to go come find you. Well,
we'll connect and take you over to HW Lights. And
because I'm going to do their test again, I think
every year you should do it and I just would
be love to have you do it if you or
at least know more about it, just tell me, you know,
particularly if you're going to meet doctor Gain, you'll have
(41:11):
already experienced. He may even be there. Not sure, but
I can introduce it to the CEO of the company.
But it would be interesting to hear whether that test
is efficacious enough to avoid having to go do any
radiation because you've got to see the arteries, whether the
(41:32):
arteries are blocked by the done. Having having done that.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
Test, how do you think you spell you Hue Hugh light. Okay,
I was kind of looking around a little bit while
we were talking.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
I can send you I have a whole program on them,
because obviously I've done their test, so, uh, thank you
very much. Yeah, I just think it would be interesting
to know whether through the newer technologies of artificial and
intelligence and this, their technology comes out of Taiwan. I'm
not kind of plugged them here, I'm just trying to
get an understanding of it. Are there other ways to
(42:10):
take to get the same information that you won't you
require without having to go through the.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
The radiation standard.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
Cardiology does a calculation called a risk calculator. That's what
cardiologists is supposed to do. You know, mister Jones, I
know you feel good, you're playing pickleball. But when I
put in the numbers your blood pressure, your age, your
total colesterol, your HDL clusterol, your blood sugar. Yeahine calculating
your risk of a heart attack is higher than average. Yeah.
(42:43):
It could move forward with you know, prescription therapy, but
it's been shown over and over that if you do
that and then you do the one hundred dollars calcium score,
you got low risk people that come back terrible on
the CT scan. You got high risk people on the
risk calculator that come back without disease. And you can
(43:05):
improve the accuracy since we're talking about making big decisions
long term by looking at arteries. If you don't want
to do a CT scan, you find a center that
it offers what it called carotid intimal medial thickness ultrasound
and you know, there's no radiation and that's.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
The calcium score. That's the other name for it.
Speaker 3 (43:26):
Calcium score is the CT scan of the heart. Oh,
the ultrasound of the arteries the brain is called the
carotid imt a C.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
That's the one that I did.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
And in the imaging center in Santa Monica do they
do that test. They do the virtual colonoscopy, they do
the ultrasound of the brass. You know, it's a complete
imaging center. And so I've got to go look up
what my score was. Now that we're talking, I'm very
curious to know. So let's go into talking about the
(44:00):
nutritional side of your practice. I think it's so important
for people to understand. What makes you so unique in
this field is your plant based diet. And by the way,
doctor Anton was a guest on Ageless and Timeless, and
he's the partner of Walka Longo and I have Volta
Longo's book that I'm gonna That's one of my tests,
(44:22):
I mean challenges for this weekend is to read his book.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Have you read that book?
Speaker 3 (44:27):
Yeah, Longevity Diets.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
You probably it's like a bible for you.
Speaker 3 (44:32):
I assume it's fifteen. You know, doctor Longo is you know,
the number one nutrition scientist in America and a good,
wonderful guy. Yeah, but you know you're right. I favor
whole food plant based diets. It's you know, I don't
own a broccoli. You know, production company briefly was in
(44:53):
the restaurant world. I don't recommend anybody going in the
restaurant work. I've been there, and it was a whole
food plant based restaurant, several of them in Detroit. Well,
you know, it started out because at age eighteen, I
adopted that diet, and my now wife and myself at
age eighteen, felt so darn good on it that we
(45:14):
couldn't find any reason to go back to the way
we grew up eating. And my parents actually ended up
gravitating that way. So it got ultra convenient too. In
med school, I started reading books. No, I wasn't being
trained on nutrition in med school. Everybody knows that. But
I started reading a book called The Diet for New
America by John Robbins, who his son was just.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
On Ocean, was just on our podcast, and.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
Yeah, and they're all good friends.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
And that was the bible of plant based dies. Wait
long before anybody really understood what that meant.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
That was in the nineteen eighties. And in nineteen ninety,
the year I started my cardiology practice, doctor Dean Ornish
published one of the most important cardiology research studies, the
Lifestyle Heart Trial, which showed that whole food plant based
diets plus stress reduction, plus exercise plus support but actually
(46:09):
reverse you know, the number one killer of men and
women coordinary art disease. So you know, that influenced me.
And then just in my patients, I saw people, you know,
starting to lower their cluster al over, their blood pressure,
lower their blood sugar, drop weight, better mental clarity without
brain fog. And I've had now thirty five years a
(46:31):
clinical experience with people, and there's clearly there's no diet
in the world like a whole food plant based diet.
Organic if you can afford it to offer, you know,
the complete nutrition, the lowest cancer risk, the lowest heart
disease risk. Does everybody feel great on it? I'd like
to say yes. I can't guarantee everybody's going to agree
(46:52):
with that. Is there five hundred times more data for
a whole food plant based diet for disease management and
there is really ketopaleo and carnivore diets combined. Yeah, there's
five hundred times more science. I mean this week, major
studies this week about plant protein promoting longevity, lowering heart
disease risk, animal protein promoting premature aging, and increasing heart
(47:17):
disease risk. With one hundred and twenty thousand people in
the study, and no one study determines the entire story.
But when you just have been reading the literature for
thirty plus years and I'm waiting where that research study is.
The carnivore diet reversus nthroscorosis never will be one, But
there isn't one now. So how you can talk to
(47:40):
a heart patient? There was an article in the Wall
Street Journal two weeks ago profiling a heart patient, a
very interesting article, widely read, and his final quot was
my John Hopkins University preventive cardiologist told me to eat
lean meat. So I eat lots and lots of lean meat,
and I'm going, oh my god. And you know, they
(48:00):
have a pretty good preventive cardiology program at Johns Hopkins University.
So how how are we so off track with science?
You know, Well, it's more prescription drugs, but that's what
I mean. John Hopkins University is not a slouchy place.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
For well, I mean, Adam, Adam Perlman was on my
podcast a couple of weeks ago and he's you know,
now the CTEO of pendulum, which, by the way, we
haven't really talked about the connection of the microbiome to
the hearth health that now they talk about the gout
grain access, but what about the gut health access, I
(48:41):
mean heart access, And what do you feel about that?
Speaker 3 (48:45):
Well, you know, it's an emerging field. When we're talking nutrition,
we're talking got heart. You know, when we're talking about
feeding your microbiome, lentils and peas and beans and greens
and nuts and seeds and whole grains, which is the
food that a vegan, whole food, plant based eater eats.
(49:06):
They're all feeding the fiber needed to promote short chain
fatty acid production, butteric acid production, keep TMAO production low.
These are all the scientific terms, you know, for ways
to measure. I've got it, and we know do we
don't have a perfect probiotic. I think if you're eating
a whole food, plant based diet, you don't need a probiotic.
(49:29):
You got it naturally, particularly if you're adding some fermented
foods in your program. There's actually a fascinating study just
published last week that a large amount of kimchi in
your diet traditional reinfermented food for dramatically lower body fat
around the waist or viscral fat.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
I read that an article. It probably wasn't the same
one that you read, but it was very similar. But
you know, I find kimchi to be terribly It's difficult
to eat because it's so spicy. So some people, you know,
like I have aversion to garlic and onions, raw garlic
and raw onions, so I have to, you know, avoid
(50:10):
them at all costs because they don't make me feel good. Obviously,
it's something in the alison that I have a reaction to.
So I've learned that a long time ago that Hey,
if you don't feel good after eating something, don't eat it. Well,
kimche of course is fifty percent of it is garlic.
I think, as are a lot of the other fermented
foods that you know. I do try to eat tempets
(50:33):
because and I but I will never eat tofu because
I read all the studies on the estrogen levels that
you know, the soybeans are if you're not fermented, can
be very very problematic.
Speaker 3 (50:48):
So yeah, so I have you know I can send
you at the paper last week at the University of
Toronto was presented at a major meeting and all the
world's that is combined in women over age sixty there
was a reduction in all kinds of cancer with a
higher SOI diet. So they just even well with any
(51:12):
soy based from an amammy to tempt you the tofu.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
Yeah, Ocean Robin said the same thing. He was very
much a pro soy person, But then I've read so
many other doctors who are against it. So yeah, I
would love to see that. If you make a note
to send it to me, because I don't want to
ever present to my view as false information just because
(51:38):
it doesn't agree with me. They eat garlic and onions
does not mean that you, you know, watching this podcast
should avoid them because that's.
Speaker 2 (51:46):
Not your biochemistry.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
And that's the one thing that I think everybody has
to realize that all everybody is unique.
Speaker 2 (51:53):
There's no one.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
Size fits all in nutrition and biochemistry is an individual
will and that's you know, part of why we do
the lab testing and the allergy testing and all the
others to find out what is your biochemistry, and that
is obviously your microbion is is indicating some aspect of
that as well as how you digest these particular foods.
(52:19):
So unfortunately they just flagged me, and I knew this
would happen, that we would. You're probably anxious to get back.
Speaker 3 (52:26):
Because you have to have patients in. I did put
the SOYS study in the chat for you, Okay.
Speaker 1 (52:33):
Okay, Yeah, I wanted to let you let you go
quickly because I respect your schedule, but I did want
to say that you've offered to have our viewers be
able to read a pdf, so could you tell us
a little about that and how they can get to
you and get to that.
Speaker 3 (52:51):
Yeah, I'm available and I do consoles all over the country.
Doctor joelcon dot com d R j O E l
k A h N dot com. I have a wonderful
staff are in Detroit that can organize that. I'll be
seeing people in Miami and Boca Ratana in January and February,
and usually it's Detroit based. And I have a guide
(53:15):
on preventing heart attacks, which we talked about a lot
of that topic today and I'm glad we did. But
you know this will give you even a little bit
more information, Okay.
Speaker 1 (53:26):
And to get that PDF they use the ageless code,
and that means that you will know that they've watched
the podcast and they're just requesting and they go to
that website and request.
Speaker 3 (53:40):
There's an information spot and you can you can reach
me easily through that website, Doctor joelcon dot com.
Speaker 2 (53:48):
Okay, So, and uh that that will bother you so much.
Speaker 1 (53:52):
I mean, there isn't somebody that handles your inquiries like
for providing the PDFs.
Speaker 3 (53:56):
So I don't know it'll be screened first perfect.
Speaker 1 (54:01):
Okay, Well, I look forward to seeing you on December
thirteenth to fifteen. Do you have are you going to
have a booth or anything there or no, You're just
you're just there som shoes and I'm walking. Yeah, So
if I text you while we're there, we'll be able
(54:22):
to connect.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
We'll find a place to meet.
Speaker 3 (54:25):
Perfect.
Speaker 2 (54:25):
Is that okay with you? Perfect? Okay? Perfect? Well?
Speaker 1 (54:29):
Perfect?
Speaker 2 (54:29):
Am I in too? This has been a wonderful discussion.
Speaker 1 (54:32):
I think it's gonna I know it's going to be
very helpful to a huge number of my cohort UH viewers.
So thank you again for taking time away from your
busy schedule and I'll see.
Speaker 2 (54:43):
You in UH in Vegas safe.
Speaker 3 (54:46):
Thank you you too.
Speaker 2 (54:48):
Bye bye, doctor con
Good morning everyone. This is Michelle Hughes from Ageless and Timeless. Today,
my guest is a world renowned cardiologist, and since heart
attacks are still stubbornly remaining the most frequent cause of
death in the world and particularly in our country, this
is really a very important podcast. I want everybody to
(00:31):
take a notepad and listen really really carefully, and watch carefully.
Doctor Joel con is well, he's so famous that I
want him to tell us all his accomplishments in just
a moment.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
But welcome, doctor con.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Thank you very much. I'm not so famous when I
walk in the door at the end of the day,
I'm just Joel.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
But that's all right, Well, that's okay. You're very humble.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
But I see you all over the internet and I
and I've read a lot of your works and a
lot of your watched a lot of your interviews, including
Jill Rogan and Gosh, I think you were on a
number of others were Who else have you been on?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Like Larry King, A lot of a lot of Larry King,
a lot of Doctor Phil, a lot of The Doctor's
Show when The Doctors Show was running. So I had
a fun that will run in Hollywood, but it's all
a little different now.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
So you are located not in Hollywood anymore, far far
away from that.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
You're in Michigan, right, I'm in suburban Detroit. That's I
was born and raised, and I'm one of those people.
I actually like it here.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Wow, that's incredible. Well, listen, we're all looking forward to
this new chapter in our medical health history. We hope
if Robert F. Kennedy gets confirmed. How do you feel
about about him and about the changes that you're very
very optimistic.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Of course, there's been no national conversation about upgrading the
national health so it's all new. I just wrote an article.
I like everything he's talking about, but he isn't talking
about hard health. So hopefully he read my articles since
I tagged him on Twitter. But you know, I'm sure
I'm not the only person who's tried to do that.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, I would love to read that article.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Is it possible for me to get you to send
me a copy?
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Okay, you have, I'll put it in the chain in
the chat chat right on what we're doing right now.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Excellently.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Well, So tell everybody that's watching today, the lucky ones
that are watching, and those that will be tuning in later.
Who are you? I mean, where where did you start?
How did you make this journey? And how did you
step where you are?
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Yeah, short little summary, not to take up any unnecessary
time from people. But I grew up in suburban Detroit.
I thought I was headed to a family retail business.
I fell in love with biology. I also had a
little heart murmur as a child, so my mother had
a father had to take me to a pediatric cardiologist,
(03:16):
so I actually had a little exposure to this field.
Thought it was pretty interesting, and by about age fifteen,
I said I'm going to grow up to be a
cardiologist and quickly got into University of Michigan Medical School
a couple of years ahead of schedule, which was very nice,
and along the way got prematurely interested in nutrition, so
(03:38):
I adopted a whole food plant based Some people would
use the word vegan diet when I was eighteen years old,
and it's forty seven, forty eight years later and I've
kept that up. That's one of the few people on
the planet can say. I'm not saying it's right or wrong,
but it's what I do. I haven't had a piece
of chicken or a slice of cheese or glass of
(03:59):
milk and forty eight years and I am alive and
well and I'm not in the protein degency ward. So
my medicool training was in cardiology, I know, my medical training,
and I went on to Dallas, Texas and Kansas City
and then I came back to Michigan and I practiced
in Michigan since nineteen ninety. At first conventional cardiology, cathlab cardiology,
(04:22):
heart attack cardiology is wonderful, based about twenty five years,
but the last ten years have been all all all
nutrition and there I just let the younger guys years
(04:42):
and years and I have a very very vibrant practice.
I am in Detroit, but I'm licensed and I think
twenty seven states, so I see people from coast to
coast and actually have I'm not dumb at this age.
I have an office in Boca Raton, Florida for the winner.
So I just pick up move down there and keep
on working in person and in zoom. So people see
(05:06):
me and we also you know, do rely on zoom.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Well, so that that means telemedicine is.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
A big party around the country.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Yeah, so telemedicine is a big part of your practice.
Joe doctor con.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Yeah. Pretty typically to about two o'clock in the afternoon,
it's all live patients and then use it from two
o'clock that I finish. It's all tell the medicine. A
lot of new ones I don't know, California, Florida, New York, Pennsylvania, Texas, Illinois,
you know, all over and it kind of works out
(05:44):
really well for what I do, A lot of education,
even ordering testing all over the country. Uh, it works
very well.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
So what I start to say is that we talked
about Dean Ornige and the fact but you know, I
told you he lived right next door to me in Sasulito.
I live in Tibron there, you know, both in county.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Aren't you lucky to live in such a beautiful place
in one of the hottest real estate markets in America?
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Well, I don't know if you if I told you,
but I am a real estate developer. But it's not
an accident that I lived in beautiful places. I've had
just quickly. My development projects have been in Hawaii and
Aspen and California, So I'm lucky enough. I did do
one project in Las Vegas, but that was just a
(06:35):
one off and mostly you know, twenty five years of
development in you know, beautiful places like California and Hawaii
and Colorado.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
So it's not an accident.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
I picked those places because they fit me and my
lifestyle of you know, wanting to create beauty no matter
where I go, both in inner beauty and outer beauty.
And that's another reason why health and wellness are such
an important part of my life. And staying healthy forever
until that day comes is a big you know, it
(07:11):
is one of the biggest challenges I think in human experience.
But it isn't impossible, and you are an example. And
that's why today we're going to talk about how we
can protect not only the heart, because the heart is
affecting other organs in the body. Or you can say
the gental health is affecting the heart, you know. So
(07:32):
you know, one thing that everybody needs to know is
that this is not just one organ that does the
bad things happen.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
It's integrated.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
And I think it's amazing to find someone like you
that's been practicing integrative functional cardiology for all these years,
and you know, not everybody knows about that approach. Most
people go to the more allopathic approach. If they have
a heart heart attack. Is that how you see it?
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Yeah? Yeah, you know right, standard medicine puts You know,
it does a lot of things well, and when you're
in trouble, when you're having an heart attack, when you're
having a ruptured appendix, you know it does things well.
But in terms of actually asking why and what can
we do to prevent the next episode, or more poorly,
what can we do to prevent getting sick in the
(08:25):
first place, you know, it's not as strong. And I've
taken a lot of extra training to have the ability
to talk to patients intelligently about nutrition and sleep and
stress and environmental toxins and fitness of course, and of
(08:47):
course the rare patient that still smokes. I had one
of them today, rare patient that still smokes. Not too
many either they do it or will come to a
cardiology office in a minute.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
So kick ustry program.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Let's say I'm your patient and I you know, I
have some symptom let's say a high blood pressure, and
I want you to help me to reduce the blood
pressure in a functional medicine approach, because you know some
of your patients I'm sure already on the path, like
I am, how do you guide them? What's what are
(09:23):
the steps if we were starting a program together.
Speaker 4 (09:26):
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Speaker 3 (10:11):
Well. You know, one of the joys of what I
do is I do have a little more time sixty
to ninety minutes blocked out with a brand new patient,
and I'm going to end that period. I don't I
don't have them fill out forms. I talk and I
listen like really careful notes. But by the time you know,
forty five minutes into that, I'm going to know what breakfast, lunch,
(10:34):
dinner snacks, what time you're eating them, where you're eating them.
I'm going to know about what time you go to bed,
and what happens during the night, would you take to
go to sleep, and whether you snore, whether your significant
others says you snore? Restless you are? You know your
gym time, your standing time, you're sitting time. You know,
did you work in a paint factory. Do you spray
(10:55):
round up on your roses? You know all kinds of
when's the last time you went to the dentist and
what they say, and what your dental oral hygiene and
you you know, rinse your mouth with scope and listerine
which actually can raise blood pressure versus a natural non bacteriocytal.
You know, oral rints if you do want to use one,
(11:16):
and of course all your supplements, prescription medicines. Many patients
have extensive prior testing. More and more they're ready ordering
these big lab panels you can order for cash, like function,
Health and Life Force or life extension and all that's
fine with me. The more I have before meeting, the better,
(11:38):
and then you know it's nailing down, you know, on
the cores of lifestyle. Usually if they haven't had extensive
blood work. We need extensive blood work. I tend to
order from Quest, but again people bring me really extensive
lab work too. It's fine. Sometimes we need imaging. If
we're talking about in this case of hypertension, it's really
(12:00):
standard cardiology. Most don't do it. You should have an
echo cardiogram if you have a history of high blood
pressure to look for an enlarged or thickened heart, which
ups the risk significantly and determines the need for more
aggressive therapy. You know, certainly if you've also had atrial
fibrillation or something with your high blood pressure, it's definitely
(12:23):
more risky. We made need imaging of the kidney arteries.
There are not many, but some people have one kidney
not too they don't know about it. Some people have
a shrunk in kidney, they don't know about it. So
it's again that's pretty standard medicine, but it's not often done.
So I will make sure we're very thorough. We can't
throw out all the conventional learning, and it's just that
(12:44):
we don't actually order these tests that we should. I'm
going to make sure there's no protein in the urine
that again a much higher risk blood pressure patient of
this protein in the urine, which can be reversible, might
grow album area. You're very rarely going to reach for
a prescription pad for a drug and an initial blood
(13:05):
pressure evaluation, and let's it's just out of sight. You know,
if you're over two hundred one, you got to have
a home blood pressure cuff. You have to You've got
to commit to exercising twenty to thirty minutes a day.
I don't care if you walk, probably not walk a dog.
That's not much of a walk in my experience. I
have a dog, I have three of them. Well, you
know you're going to need to, you know, get on
(13:27):
a treadmill, get on a bike, do weight training. I
do pilates, do yoga. I'd like you to have an
infrared sauna. That's not really inexpensive, but you might find
a wellness center or a local gym you can get
an infrared sauna. Proven published research at University Kansas that
infrared sauna therapy lowers blood pressure naturally. If you've got
(13:48):
sleep pathology, we're gonna, you know, refer you to a
sleep medicine dentist or a sleep medicine MD, and we're
going to talk about you know, sleeping on your side
and maybe taping your mouth. If it's very mild pathology.
We don't take the mouth of its serious pathology. People
that breathe through their nose make more nitric oxide. Nitric
oxide lowers blood pressure. I'm really going to talk about food.
(14:12):
We can start with the DASH diet, which is DASH
the dietary approach to stop hypertension, keep the Mediterranean diet
on a lower salt approach, and you know, we're going
to really emphasize plant based foods. There's no doubt hole
plant based foods, not process plant based foods. Blood pressure
better than any other diet. Olive oil instead of butter.
(14:35):
Not that that's a major blood pressure change, but you know,
leafy greens, pomegranates, watermelon, pine nuts, while nuts, these things
lower blood pressure, particularly if they're more raw whole forms.
So sleep fitness nutrition. If there's a weight issue, I'm
not rushing to Ozepic and Moonjyro, but you know, we
(14:56):
may have to discuss them. If there's you know, eighty
extra pounds above well, I'd like the doctor Vaulter Longo
prolon fasting mimicking diet five day program. We can lose weight,
people can lower their biologic age. It's not a guarantee
it's going to lower your blood pressure, but it is
a good training session for five days once a month
(15:18):
for three months, people learn a little bit more about
portion control, They learn to recognize what hunger feels like.
They put themselves into a mild ketosis and as opposed
to water fasting, Actually water fasting will drop your blood pressure,
but you know you're not going to function very well.
If you're doing a water fast. You can work a
full day and not you know, disrupt your life doing
(15:39):
the prol on five day fasting them can diet. Yeah.
I love supplements for blood pressure. Garlic lowers blood pressure,
aged odorless garlic coenzyme Q ten. These have big science
lots of magnesium unless you have kidney disease. And then
there's so many others from olive leaf extract to vitamin
C to touring lowers blood pressure and had some antiaging evidence.
(16:07):
Those are probably the biggest ones that I used around here.
But all that ados on. There's actually an interesting Indian
herbal vitamin, very inexpensive. Nobody's ever heard of it called
mook Devadi m u k T A here behind me,
I don't know somebody mouk devadi and.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Wait, let me let me write it. M u k
e a yeah, I t a vody. What is that?
I've never heard of that.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
It's a herbal combination that's formulated just for blood pressure lowering.
It's got some Ashawa Ganda and other herbs. But boy,
and my patient's given me positive feedback in the last
five years withoutout going to a prescription drug.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
You know, how did you find out about it?
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Something I read? I read, I read, I read, and
I think somewhere in a textbook I read about it.
It's ordered it, it's available, and I listened to the patients.
They loved it. Yeah, you know, and you know, we
got to talk about stress management. So we're going to
talk about some strategy that isn't tequila, you know and
(17:14):
chips at night. We're going to talk about, you know,
stress management through maybe four seven eight, breathing box, breathing yoga,
I like heart math, which is a little device that
helps you breathe and relax and has a lot of
public science. So that's you know, where we're going to start,
and then we're going to have to retest come back.
(17:34):
You know people need a home blood pressure cough. Before
talking about this specific topic, you can numbers over time.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Sorry to interrupt me. What do you consider to be
outside the range?
Speaker 1 (17:46):
I know on'e twenty over eighty is the you know,
the ideal. But where do you draw a line to
be high blood blow, you know, hypertension.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Let's say, what.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
A little more permissive in the elderly. You know, on
the one hand, you don't want to be lax about
blood pressure and somebody eighty eight years old and risk
a stroke. But on the other hand, I don't want
to overtreat them and have them stand up off the toilet,
you know, and be risk of passing out. So it's
a little balance at a little art there. And it's
(18:20):
also I'm going to treat a little more aggressively if
the heart's and large, if there's kidney issues, if there's
protein in the urine, if there's issues of congestive heart
failure or shortness of breath. I mean, I'm going to
treat a little bit more aggressively in those settings. If
there's coronary art disease, which all my patients have had
(18:41):
some kind of screening testing for coronary art disease.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
So you and I are both members of A four M,
and when we go to the conference, which I assume
you'll be going in another week or so, as I
will be in Vegas too, and hopefully we'll get to
meet in person there. So I just when you're in there,
are you familiar with some of the testing that's being
done by some of the vendors in the exhibition hall.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
I visit them all. I haven't seen anything incredible for
high blood pressure, but if you're thinking about something, let
me know.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Well, I was just wondering.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
You know, I have done with them, and this is
just me, but I'm sure a lot of other people
who've been to A four M done these tests.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
And one is the Hue light Hue light, and they.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Have a test called the A and S which is
the autonomic nervous system test that tests your heart function.
Are you familiar with that one?
Speaker 3 (19:39):
I'm familiar. I actually can claim if you look at
my curriculum VITE I did research on heart v variability
back in the nineteen eighties. Wow, there's quite a few
papers on it. Before it was something built into your
sleep ring or your sleep watch and all the rest.
(20:00):
Hue device I'm not immediately seeing a light bulb go off.
But you know, in an ideal world, we would do
more autonomic nervous system testing, and you know, the poor
man's way to do it is have a watch or
a device that does heart rate variability testing, which is
pretty much the same thing. But it's actually quite challenging
(20:22):
to get really really good autonomic nervous system testing. And
if you're not going to get really good numbers, it's
not we're doing it all. The other device you mentioned
isn't ringing a bell?
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Actually, well, doctor Mitch again, you know him? Yeah, yeah,
he's the scientific advisor for Hugh Light. So he's many
guests on my podcast. And I see that both of
you are on the board.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Of the Life Extension. I saw your bio there.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
I've never met doctor again, the second person in twenty
four hours to bring him up. I think my mother
is going to act. You see him and I practiced
in Boca Raton in the winter too, So thank you
for reminding me to make an introduction to him.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Well, I'm happy to do that, but I'm sure you
can do it on your own. But he's been a
guest on our podcast and certainly you can look him
up as the interview was done about I think a
month and a half ago.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
Perfect.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Yeah, So if you go to Ageless and time was
on either my website or on YouTube, just typing doctor
Mitchell again, he'll come up.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
So, yeah, it was a really great interview and he's.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Very, very accomplished, just as you are. So Okay, back
to the discussion of the protocols. You said so many things,
and it was so in depth and so thorough that
I'm sure a lot of people are saying, I've never
heard that I would have to do all of that
and get to where I want to be.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
So well, the backdrop, just to remind people why is
he talking about so much, is actually, statistically more people
die in the world related to high blood pressure than
any other single diagnosis. Now, high blood pressure leads to
coordinary art disease, heart attack, strokes, and aneurysm rupture, so
(22:12):
you know, there is a connection with the more common
statistic that everybody hears that art disease is the number
one killer of men and women. And that's true, but
we should be very vigilant about high blood pressure and
try and add its root cause you know, corrected and all, well.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
That's why they call it the silent killer, right me.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
I agree, I agree.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Well, okay, so what about hormones, how do they affect
I'm just using high blood pressure. Of course, there's so
many other aspects of heart disease, but this is just
to give people an idea because it is a very
common problem in particularly in people over fifty that you know,
historically may have had very normal blood pressure, but suddenly
it changes.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
So that's why I use that.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
One as an exam both for our discussion today, knowing
that people are going to realize that your practice is
much broader and encompasses many, many more issues relating to
heart disease. But let's just go back to the you know,
the high blood pressure and the hormones. What effect do
hormones have on your blood pressure?
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Yeah, in the standard medical world, we should be considering
hormonal causes of high blood pressure, but we're usually focusing
on al dosterone, rehenon hormones released by the kidneys, the
adrenal grant gland, and the rest. And that's very important.
(23:40):
And you know, certainly if you have a clue, like
a page with high blood pressure who has a low
potassium level, in the blood not related to taking a
strong diuretic. You should look that pasient up for an
abnormal al doosterone level. When you talk about sex hormones,
which I think you know is going to come to
mind more commonly not as clear cut. There's no doubt
(24:04):
that a woman going through menopause who might start to
sleep poorly, might start to be challenged by weight gain,
might be tired and neworking out quite as hard that
woman is at risk for developing high blood pressure. And
measuring and addressing and replacing hormones as soon as you
can in relationship to menopause is very smart. Again. Men
(24:31):
and testosterone. I mean, if you were to identify low
testosterone and treat it, I wouldn't necessarily expect to see
blood pressure improve. The possibility that it's a secondary benefit.
They feel better, they're going to the gym more, they're
working out and becoming you know, more lean muscle mass
and less visceral fat. There may be, you know, that
(24:53):
their route for improving their blood pressure getting them more
health conscious. They're just feeling better, But it's not as
important of a connection.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
But I hear so much about estrogen and thyroid being
two positive factors with respect to blood pressure management. So
talk about those for a moment.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
For those two.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Yeah, Thyroid again not strongly linked, you know there of
course is just generally hypo low thyroid. And again people
may be fatigued, cold, dried skin, hair falling out at all.
I mean again, secondarily, if they don't feel well until
they get their hype both irodism corrected, they may become,
(25:38):
you know, somewhat overweight and blood pressure may go up secondarily,
but it's not a main driver. It's not a major
driver of high blood pressure.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
If you're taking synthroid or arm armor or nature stroid,
the natural forms or or even the synthetic coin that
those are not going to have your blood pressure.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
They usually do not. There's usually not a one to
one connection.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Ok.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Good, Okay, And thats hoones are thyroid hormones. Now again Cortisol.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Yeah, that's what I was going to ask next.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
You know, and that's again somebody's sleeping poorly, work, stress, family,
stress diets off and they have you know, they running
high cortisol levels. There's no doubt that can lead to
an elevated blood pressure. And managing their stress, their sleep,
their diet, which they.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Can take be taking data as well, and does data
have any effect on I know it has an effect
on cortisol, but does it have an effect on blood pressure?
Speaker 3 (26:45):
Yeah? No, not directly, certainly not a concern and also
not a therapy.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Okay, so Joe, let's go into the discussion of the
labs because I think people really want to know when
I go to take a blood test and I'm you know,
a healthy individual, but I'm going to go do my
annual physical, what in your you're my doctor, what are
the labs that you're going to request other than the
standards you know, CDC and all that.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
But the ones that have particularly focused on the heart.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
It's a big panel and you know it's going to
be everything if you think about what does uh? If
I were an internal medicine doctor at your annual physical,
I'm going to get it's called a CBC with differential
at your hemoglobe, and I'm going to get your comprehensive
metabolic panel vitamin D. I think most internests will do that, right.
(27:38):
You know, it's got a history. You've got a thyroid panel,
though it's usually a pretty short thyroid panel. My thyroid
panel is all the hormones and all the antibodies, and
a more of a functional messine thyroid panel. Plus I
like to speak an iodine level, usually urinide. But but
I'm going to get every inflammation marker on the planet,
high sensitivity C reactive protein mile, low peroxidase stone as MPO,
(28:03):
lpp LA two, which is there's no way to pronounce
it other than those. It's a well known cardiovascar inflammation test.
They're very importantly. I'd love to see a blood test
for Omega three blood levels I practice number one most
common nutrition deficiency. It's not vitamin D, it's Omega three
(28:25):
being extremely low. Only a few people really pound down
a lot of salmon or fish oil capsules have a
really level over five.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
But what you mostly hear about is magnesium as being
one of the most common deficiencies in.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Human beings.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Now you hear about that, I gotta tell you every
patient gets a red blood cell magnesium in my practice,
and I don't think one in one hundred comes back
towards a low end of normal or below normal. But
thirty to forty to fifty percent of my patients have
a low will make a three level, and there is
good data. Blood pressure drops with repleting you know, Omega
(29:06):
three levels. It might drop with vitamin D, and it
will drop with repleting low magnesium levels. But I don't know.
Maybe I just have a lot of patients eating nuts
and seeds and greens, so their magnesium levels are are
already pretty good naturally, or that comes to me, they're
ready on magnesium. You know that one they know about
(29:26):
because it got tested beyond that. Of course, I'm a cardiologist.
I want to complete advanced cholesterol panel usually called an
NMR light boat profile, but certainly everybody's got to have.
You have to have a blood test called light boat
protein little A also is LP little A. Y tab
(29:47):
in the world offers it. It's maybe a thirty dollars
simple blood test. You don't have to be fasting, and
twenty five percent of people inherit the ability in their
liver to make a lot of light boat protein little A.
And it's the cause of premature stroke, cart attack, death,
and an a ordic foul disorder. And there's increasing therapies
for dealing with it because the therapies we're dealing with
(30:08):
standard cholesterol don't work for lipoprotein little A.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
But and what about lipoprotein little B.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
Well, there's ApoB. There's apo B, which is a simple
test that I add on in everybody as one more
way to measure adequate cholesterol control or inadequate cholesterol control,
which is mainly in people that have athroscoratic heart disease.
(30:36):
Those are the ones, you know that I'm really focusing
on all that. If you have good arteries, I'm less concerned.
You know, insulin resistant tests, you know, fasting glucose. If
I can get somebody fasted hemoglobin A one C, I
like to see it. Fasting, insulin level are all important.
(30:58):
Oh and I think we talked about you know, and
then hormones. You know, we talked about hormones.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Well, okay, so but here's the thing that one of
the biggest I think the biggest scams in American health
is cholesterol. I think that too many people, This is
just me observing that just seems too many people are
prescribed statins that don't really need statins.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
And do you feel that similarly about that issue?
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Well, and doubtedly you're right, because you know, the conversation
is typically John or Jane, you know your cholesterol's two
hundred and forty or l d l's one hundred and sixty.
I think you should go on this prescription for lipator
and it's usually you know, for life. But what is
missing in that equation and what has been suggested twenty
(31:46):
years ago but is now really a high level recommendation
even the American Heart Association, is take that asymptomatic person
and test their arteries. This was actually proposed forty years ago.
So how do you test arteries? And the implication being
that if you test and have clean or nearly clean arteries,
(32:06):
you don't need prescription drugs. And if you have very
advanced silent art disease. Of course, we're not talking people
who've had heart attacks or a bypass surgery. We're talking
to the general public who believe they're fine. If you
have diseased arteries, you need very aggressive everything dietary therapy,
fitness therapy, sleep therapy, and you may end up needing
(32:28):
you know, prescription drugs if you can't beat it. So
there is a simple CT scan of the heart called
a coronary artery calcium CT scan. I recommend every adult
get one right away if you've never had one. It
takes about ten seconds. Every hospital does it but you
have to get a prescription, generally from a doctor for
(32:49):
a coronary artery calcium CT scan, nothing injected, nothing injected,
no allergies, no pain, no glaustrophobia. And if your heart
arteries on that test come back a zero, you are
in great shape. And if your arteries come back with
a lot of silent disease, you got to get together
(33:11):
with somebody and you got to, you know, really start
looking at the issue of why do I have heart disease,
what's the root cause, and what do I do about it,
which is what I do in my office every day
all over the country. So those people may need a stating.
But when you go back to all the literature going
back to the nineteen eighties on lipitur and crustore, we
(33:31):
never really segregated. We're not going to treat those with
clean arteries. There's really no logic for that, and we're
just going to limit aggressive treatment for those that have
silent and advanced disease to prevent the future. So I
agree with you that means a lot of people are
being treated that don't need to be treated.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Well, because cholesterol is actually good if it's the right kind.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Because it's nourishing it. Well, first it comes from the liver,
and if the liver is not toxic and it's producing
healthy cholesterol, and then that cholesterol else feeding the brain,
which so much of the brain is cholesterol, is cholesterol based.
Then having a higher cholesterol number, let's just say the
two thirty or two forty number you mentioned, as long
(34:14):
as it's not LDL and it's not blocking arteries and
it's doing good for those other those organs, isn't that
actually a misnomer that you should be below two hundred.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Well, the step one in my world is what's the
status of your arteries? Okay, I want to know if
you're developing. And the other way you can do it
is you do you have two beautiful arteries going up
to the brain called kate. They're ideal for a simple
Ultrasoundies don't need prescription treatment. Parties need a serious, you know,
(34:52):
conversation on that topic. So the brain makes its own cholesterol.
So when you're measuring blood cholesterol of two forty or
one twenty, that's not brain colesterol. The brain is sitting
there making whatever it wants. So we aren't really seeing
dementia from lowering cholesterol. It's certainly a common topic on Twitter,
(35:15):
but when you really knock down the literature, you're not
seeing we're not ruining brains by lowering cholesterol. But I
deal with that every day in the clinic. People today.
You know, my functional medicine doctor hates my cholesterol level.
I hate your eighty percent blockages and your arteries. Got
to come to some recognition that you know, yeah, I
(35:38):
think you're going to die of a heart attack where
you're ever going to die a dementia, even though there
isn't actually much data for dementia from lowering cholesterol at all.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
Oh that's interesting to know.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Yeah, So the HDL, the LDL, the ratio, what should
what should it be to be if you're getting if
you're passing the test when your in your clinic.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
In my world, it should be banished and not discussed.
The reason is it was very simple in the nineteen
seventies that low HDL cholesterol is bad, increases risk, the
l cholesterol is good, protects the heart. But in the
last fifteen years there's many, many studies that it's sort
(36:23):
of a U shaped curve. We call it a medicine.
Low HDL may raise the risk of athroscratic heart disease.
But a high HDALE, particularly in a woman, is not benign,
and a high HDL can actually cause atheroskrosis. The last
patient I saw today before we went on this conversation
(36:45):
is a sixty six year old, delightful woman who has
the most corner disease of any woman in my practice.
And her HDL is one hundred and fifty. Oh, we
just went over our labs and it's not due to
medical She genetically runs this crazy high HDL and we
have no therapy for it. But you would normally say,
(37:08):
my god, you got enough HDL cluster for three women.
You must have the clean assarities on the planet. And
indeed it's the opposite.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Interesting, So the ratio of HTL to LDL means nothing
to you because that HDL could skew.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
That's right. If one of the portions of the ratio
isn't reliably predictive, then how can the ratio be predicted?
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Uh huh, very interesting.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
So these scans that are available, I've done the calcium
score ultrasound and it was completely normal, so I was
really happy about that.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
But that's just like an ABC primer of knowing more
in depth of what's going on. Is that not correct?
Speaker 1 (37:50):
It's like going to kindergarten for your heart condition. But
there are so many other cutting edge not lasers, but
scanning devices today, and I see that you're using. You
mentioned one earlier.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
I didn't recognize the name, but the ll whatever.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
So what actually for the issue of detecting? I feel
good I played pickleball, but my neighbor just had a
heart attack and she plays pickleball too. How do I know?
I mean, yeah, you may want to arrange an ultra
sound of your crowded arteries fairly, but the real heart tests, see,
(38:30):
and it requires CT scanning. MURI has some role in
heart evaluation, but not for clogged arteries, and ultrasound has
some role in heart evaluation but not for clogged heart arteries.
So you either got to do the corn artery calcium
CT scan, which takes five seconds and costs about one
(38:50):
hundred dollars, or you want a more advanced test if
there's a reason for it. And I order a lot
of this advanced test, but I'm very selective and who
I order it for. There is a test called a
coronary calcium CT aigram. The keyword is antigram. It's just
(39:13):
like lying down to get that one hundred dollars CT
but they inject iodine. Iodine is not radioactive, but it
makes you feel hot. It fills the arteries. And you
can make very very advanced pictures with a coronary ct andigram,
and you can tell that's twenty percent block, that's forty
(39:33):
two percent block, that's seventeen percent block, you can tell
what it's blogged up with, and at the end of
the day you get a very very advanced evaluation. This
has been available for about four years with artificial intelligence interpretation,
which has just transformed cardiology, certainly transformed my practice. But
(39:54):
it's a fifteen to eighteen one hundred dollars test. It's
a little more radiation than simple calcium scan. You can't
be allergic to iodine. Some people are allergic to aidine,
so there's a few people can't get it. But if
in my practice, if you want to know in the
most advanced detail what's going on with my hard art reason,
(40:16):
there's a reason there's that advanced ct ajagram. But if
you do the simple one hundred dollars one and you
come back zero. I'm very happy to work with you
without prescription drugs, just on lifestyle and we'll end up
in good shape.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
And so that is that done?
Speaker 3 (40:33):
A quest or where do you go to have something
that's got to be done at a CT imaging center?
Ye might be your hospital, it might be a freestanding
CT center, and there's a lot of freestanding CT centers.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Well, when we're at a form in December, I want
to take you. I want to go come find you. Well,
we'll connect and take you over to HW Lights. And
because I'm going to do their test again, I think
every year you should do it and I just would
be love to have you do it if you or
at least know more about it, just tell me, you know,
particularly if you're going to meet doctor Gain, you'll have
(41:11):
already experienced. He may even be there. Not sure, but
I can introduce it to the CEO of the company.
But it would be interesting to hear whether that test
is efficacious enough to avoid having to go do any
radiation because you've got to see the arteries, whether the
(41:32):
arteries are blocked by the done. Having having done that.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
Test, how do you think you spell you Hue Hugh light. Okay,
I was kind of looking around a little bit while
we were talking.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
I can send you I have a whole program on them,
because obviously I've done their test, so, uh, thank you
very much. Yeah, I just think it would be interesting
to know whether through the newer technologies of artificial and
intelligence and this, their technology comes out of Taiwan. I'm
not kind of plugged them here, I'm just trying to
get an understanding of it. Are there other ways to
(42:10):
take to get the same information that you won't you
require without having to go through the.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
The radiation standard.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
Cardiology does a calculation called a risk calculator. That's what
cardiologists is supposed to do. You know, mister Jones, I
know you feel good, you're playing pickleball. But when I
put in the numbers your blood pressure, your age, your
total colesterol, your HDL clusterol, your blood sugar. Yeahine calculating
your risk of a heart attack is higher than average. Yeah.
(42:43):
It could move forward with you know, prescription therapy, but
it's been shown over and over that if you do
that and then you do the one hundred dollars calcium score,
you got low risk people that come back terrible on
the CT scan. You got high risk people on the
risk calculator that come back without disease. And you can
(43:05):
improve the accuracy since we're talking about making big decisions
long term by looking at arteries. If you don't want
to do a CT scan, you find a center that
it offers what it called carotid intimal medial thickness ultrasound
and you know, there's no radiation and that's.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
The calcium score. That's the other name for it.
Speaker 3 (43:26):
Calcium score is the CT scan of the heart. Oh,
the ultrasound of the arteries the brain is called the
carotid imt a C.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
That's the one that I did.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
And in the imaging center in Santa Monica do they
do that test. They do the virtual colonoscopy, they do
the ultrasound of the brass. You know, it's a complete
imaging center. And so I've got to go look up
what my score was. Now that we're talking, I'm very
curious to know. So let's go into talking about the
(44:00):
nutritional side of your practice. I think it's so important
for people to understand. What makes you so unique in
this field is your plant based diet. And by the way,
doctor Anton was a guest on Ageless and Timeless, and
he's the partner of Walka Longo and I have Volta
Longo's book that I'm gonna That's one of my tests,
(44:22):
I mean challenges for this weekend is to read his book.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Have you read that book?
Speaker 3 (44:27):
Yeah, Longevity Diets.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
You probably it's like a bible for you.
Speaker 3 (44:32):
I assume it's fifteen. You know, doctor Longo is you know,
the number one nutrition scientist in America and a good,
wonderful guy. Yeah, but you know you're right. I favor
whole food plant based diets. It's you know, I don't
own a broccoli. You know, production company briefly was in
(44:53):
the restaurant world. I don't recommend anybody going in the
restaurant work. I've been there, and it was a whole
food plant based restaurant, several of them in Detroit. Well,
you know, it started out because at age eighteen, I
adopted that diet, and my now wife and myself at
age eighteen, felt so darn good on it that we
(45:14):
couldn't find any reason to go back to the way
we grew up eating. And my parents actually ended up
gravitating that way. So it got ultra convenient too. In
med school, I started reading books. No, I wasn't being
trained on nutrition in med school. Everybody knows that. But
I started reading a book called The Diet for New
America by John Robbins, who his son was just.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
On Ocean, was just on our podcast, and.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
Yeah, and they're all good friends.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
And that was the bible of plant based dies. Wait
long before anybody really understood what that meant.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
That was in the nineteen eighties. And in nineteen ninety,
the year I started my cardiology practice, doctor Dean Ornish
published one of the most important cardiology research studies, the
Lifestyle Heart Trial, which showed that whole food plant based
diets plus stress reduction, plus exercise plus support but actually
(46:09):
reverse you know, the number one killer of men and
women coordinary art disease. So you know, that influenced me.
And then just in my patients, I saw people, you know,
starting to lower their cluster al over, their blood pressure,
lower their blood sugar, drop weight, better mental clarity without
brain fog. And I've had now thirty five years a
(46:31):
clinical experience with people, and there's clearly there's no diet
in the world like a whole food plant based diet.
Organic if you can afford it to offer, you know,
the complete nutrition, the lowest cancer risk, the lowest heart
disease risk. Does everybody feel great on it? I'd like
to say yes. I can't guarantee everybody's going to agree
(46:52):
with that. Is there five hundred times more data for
a whole food plant based diet for disease management and
there is really ketopaleo and carnivore diets combined. Yeah, there's
five hundred times more science. I mean this week, major
studies this week about plant protein promoting longevity, lowering heart
disease risk, animal protein promoting premature aging, and increasing heart
(47:17):
disease risk. With one hundred and twenty thousand people in
the study, and no one study determines the entire story.
But when you just have been reading the literature for
thirty plus years and I'm waiting where that research study is.
The carnivore diet reversus nthroscorosis never will be one, But
there isn't one now. So how you can talk to
(47:40):
a heart patient? There was an article in the Wall
Street Journal two weeks ago profiling a heart patient, a
very interesting article, widely read, and his final quot was
my John Hopkins University preventive cardiologist told me to eat
lean meat. So I eat lots and lots of lean meat,
and I'm going, oh my god. And you know, they
(48:00):
have a pretty good preventive cardiology program at Johns Hopkins University.
So how how are we so off track with science?
You know, Well, it's more prescription drugs, but that's what
I mean. John Hopkins University is not a slouchy place.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
For well, I mean, Adam, Adam Perlman was on my
podcast a couple of weeks ago and he's you know,
now the CTEO of pendulum, which, by the way, we
haven't really talked about the connection of the microbiome to
the hearth health that now they talk about the gout
grain access, but what about the gut health access, I
(48:41):
mean heart access, And what do you feel about that?
Speaker 3 (48:45):
Well, you know, it's an emerging field. When we're talking nutrition,
we're talking got heart. You know, when we're talking about
feeding your microbiome, lentils and peas and beans and greens
and nuts and seeds and whole grains, which is the
food that a vegan, whole food, plant based eater eats.
(49:06):
They're all feeding the fiber needed to promote short chain
fatty acid production, butteric acid production, keep TMAO production low.
These are all the scientific terms, you know, for ways
to measure. I've got it, and we know do we
don't have a perfect probiotic. I think if you're eating
a whole food, plant based diet, you don't need a probiotic.
(49:29):
You got it naturally, particularly if you're adding some fermented
foods in your program. There's actually a fascinating study just
published last week that a large amount of kimchi in
your diet traditional reinfermented food for dramatically lower body fat
around the waist or viscral fat.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
I read that an article. It probably wasn't the same
one that you read, but it was very similar. But
you know, I find kimchi to be terribly It's difficult
to eat because it's so spicy. So some people, you know,
like I have aversion to garlic and onions, raw garlic
and raw onions, so I have to, you know, avoid
(50:10):
them at all costs because they don't make me feel good. Obviously,
it's something in the alison that I have a reaction to.
So I've learned that a long time ago that Hey,
if you don't feel good after eating something, don't eat it. Well,
kimche of course is fifty percent of it is garlic.
I think, as are a lot of the other fermented
foods that you know. I do try to eat tempets
(50:33):
because and I but I will never eat tofu because
I read all the studies on the estrogen levels that
you know, the soybeans are if you're not fermented, can
be very very problematic.
Speaker 3 (50:48):
So yeah, so I have you know I can send
you at the paper last week at the University of
Toronto was presented at a major meeting and all the
world's that is combined in women over age sixty there
was a reduction in all kinds of cancer with a
higher SOI diet. So they just even well with any
(51:12):
soy based from an amammy to tempt you the tofu.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
Yeah, Ocean Robin said the same thing. He was very
much a pro soy person, But then I've read so
many other doctors who are against it. So yeah, I
would love to see that. If you make a note
to send it to me, because I don't want to
ever present to my view as false information just because
(51:38):
it doesn't agree with me. They eat garlic and onions
does not mean that you, you know, watching this podcast
should avoid them because that's.
Speaker 2 (51:46):
Not your biochemistry.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
And that's the one thing that I think everybody has
to realize that all everybody is unique.
Speaker 2 (51:53):
There's no one.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
Size fits all in nutrition and biochemistry is an individual
will and that's you know, part of why we do
the lab testing and the allergy testing and all the
others to find out what is your biochemistry, and that
is obviously your microbion is is indicating some aspect of
that as well as how you digest these particular foods.
(52:19):
So unfortunately they just flagged me, and I knew this
would happen, that we would. You're probably anxious to get back.
Speaker 3 (52:26):
Because you have to have patients in. I did put
the SOYS study in the chat for you, Okay.
Speaker 1 (52:33):
Okay, Yeah, I wanted to let you let you go
quickly because I respect your schedule, but I did want
to say that you've offered to have our viewers be
able to read a pdf, so could you tell us
a little about that and how they can get to
you and get to that.
Speaker 3 (52:51):
Yeah, I'm available and I do consoles all over the country.
Doctor joelcon dot com d R j O E l
k A h N dot com. I have a wonderful
staff are in Detroit that can organize that. I'll be
seeing people in Miami and Boca Ratana in January and February,
and usually it's Detroit based. And I have a guide
(53:15):
on preventing heart attacks, which we talked about a lot
of that topic today and I'm glad we did. But
you know this will give you even a little bit
more information, Okay.
Speaker 1 (53:26):
And to get that PDF they use the ageless code,
and that means that you will know that they've watched
the podcast and they're just requesting and they go to
that website and request.
Speaker 3 (53:40):
There's an information spot and you can you can reach
me easily through that website, Doctor joelcon dot com.
Speaker 2 (53:48):
Okay, So, and uh that that will bother you so much.
Speaker 1 (53:52):
I mean, there isn't somebody that handles your inquiries like
for providing the PDFs.
Speaker 3 (53:56):
So I don't know it'll be screened first perfect.
Speaker 1 (54:01):
Okay, Well, I look forward to seeing you on December
thirteenth to fifteen. Do you have are you going to
have a booth or anything there or no, You're just
you're just there som shoes and I'm walking. Yeah, So
if I text you while we're there, we'll be able
(54:22):
to connect.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
We'll find a place to meet.
Speaker 3 (54:25):
Perfect.
Speaker 2 (54:25):
Is that okay with you? Perfect? Okay? Perfect? Well?
Speaker 1 (54:29):
Perfect?
Speaker 2 (54:29):
Am I in too? This has been a wonderful discussion.
Speaker 1 (54:32):
I think it's gonna I know it's going to be
very helpful to a huge number of my cohort UH viewers.
So thank you again for taking time away from your
busy schedule and I'll see.
Speaker 2 (54:43):
You in UH in Vegas safe.
Speaker 3 (54:46):
Thank you you too.
Speaker 2 (54:48):
Bye bye, doctor con
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