March 4, 2025 • 45 mins
Andor: Season One - Premiere Episodes.
In preparation for the second season, Matt and John start a StarWars: Andor rewatch to discuss their opinions and see what might have shifted. Critically lauded and praised by many fans, John was lukewarm on the show when it first aired and Matt was a big fan off what was done.
This episode features an in-depth discussion of the first three-episode arc of Star Wars: Andor, as they try to understand what resonated so strongly with so many and left others underwhelmed.
Host
John Mills and Matthew Rushing
Love listening to Aggressive Negotiations, a Star Wars podcast that’s different from all the rest? Then you’ll love The Nerd Party, a one-of-a-kind podcast network focused on all the best of Star Trek, the magical realm of the Harry Potter books, the works of the best film directors in history, the latest from international film and comic stars, and so much more!
Send us your feedback!
Twitter: @TheJediMasters
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheNerdParty/
Email: http://www.thenerdparty.com/contact
Subscribe in Apple Podcasts
In preparation for the second season, Matt and John start a StarWars: Andor rewatch to discuss their opinions and see what might have shifted. Critically lauded and praised by many fans, John was lukewarm on the show when it first aired and Matt was a big fan off what was done.
This episode features an in-depth discussion of the first three-episode arc of Star Wars: Andor, as they try to understand what resonated so strongly with so many and left others underwhelmed.
Host
John Mills and Matthew Rushing
Love listening to Aggressive Negotiations, a Star Wars podcast that’s different from all the rest? Then you’ll love The Nerd Party, a one-of-a-kind podcast network focused on all the best of Star Trek, the magical realm of the Harry Potter books, the works of the best film directors in history, the latest from international film and comic stars, and so much more!
Send us your feedback!
Twitter: @TheJediMasters
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheNerdParty/
Email: http://www.thenerdparty.com/contact
Subscribe in Apple Podcasts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the ned Palty.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hi, this is Nick and Astasu, story editor on Star Wars,
The Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch, and you
are listening to aggressive negotiations.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Well, hello and welcome from Ferricks. This is aggressive negotiations.
I hope you can hear us over the incessant banging
on metal. I am just one of your hosts here,
Matthew Rushing and with me as he is every single week,
rebellious Jedi Master John.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
Mills frankly disappointed that they didn't take the opportunity to
have a tie in song written for and Or that
was a heavy metal song, get it, and it would
start with the metal and the banging. Say, this is
why I need to be in that boardroom with Disney,
because these are the ideas they would get for free.
But as added bonus for everybody that goes over to
(01:02):
Apple Podcasts and leaves us a review, we will continue
giving out these great ideas for free. So head on
over there and give us a review and a star rating.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Well, we've got something really fun for everybody, John, because
we're coming at you live from Ferris. As we place
our bricks on the kiln where we're getting ready for
when we hit the bricks finally one day and well,
we're really excited because and our season two is going
(01:31):
to be coming out. We thought, well, why don't we
go back and talk about and or season one. We've
never actually sat down and really talked through all of
the episodes together, and so what we're going to do.
We're going to actually attack this the xact same way
that the season was released, where they released as a
premiere the first three episodes of Casa, What would be
(01:51):
Me and Reckoning all together as a mini arc to
kick off the series. And so, first, John, I got
to ask you, is we you know, dive into talking
about the series again. Do you think that it was
a wise move of them to release these first three
episodes together, since they truly do, basically in many ways
(02:15):
like those Clone Wars arcs, create an arc of this story.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
Yes, and no, I think it was wise of them
to release all three at once. I remember when it
came out, I was unable to watch all three at
one time because I had to go to sleep and
you know, had a lot of obligations the following morning
to worry over and being on the East Coast, which
is the real coast. You know that that would put
(02:43):
it pretty late at night, and hey, hey, hey they
judge when football games are played by my coast. All right,
I don't want to hear it. But the the thing
that I would say was unwise about it was the
three episode arc was apparently better if they had just
(03:08):
released it as a little mini movie, maybe a seventy
minute movie, and approached it not as separate episodes that
played well together. But the way that the Benedict Cumberbatch
Sherlock Home series approached it and said, here are three
nice episodes that are of seventy to ninety minute length.
(03:30):
Enjoy that would have worked for me a bit better
than the three episodes.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Yeah, I could definitely understand what you're saying. I think,
you know, it's interesting because at that point, you know,
you yourself would almost still run into the same issue
unless you were doing a specific rewatch where it's like
the episode drops and you're like, oh, seventy minutes. I
(03:57):
don't have seventy minutes, so I'm gonna like watch a
you know, are of it, and then I'm gonna go
to bed and then.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
You know, so in some ways, it's like.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
It's a toss up as to whether or not it
would truly work better, because in some ways, I think, like,
as we're watching it now, right, if you the season
itself is actually split into four different arcs, and they
all consist of of three episodes basically, so if you
(04:28):
watch it in three episode increments, it creates this kind
of like movement of and Or's life, and so in
many ways I could see what you're saying, and at
the same time, it's like, yeah, I don't know if
it necessarily would have made too much of a difference
(04:49):
for many people, except maybe in like a rewatch where
they're you know, they know what's coming and they can
prepare then to sit down and watch seventy minutes or
eighty minutes together.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
My counterpoint would be, even if you go as high
as ninety minutes, if instead of being precious about it
and stretching out the content to episodes that you later
construct as a weekly release sort of thing, if you
embrace that mini movie approach, then you release it not
(05:21):
on a Tuesday or a Wednesday for whatever bizarre reason
they rationalize releasing on Tuesdays and Wednesdays. Make it a
Friday night movie event like seriously. That's why they would
have Yeah, you know, the NBC would have have movies
on on Saturday nights or Sunday nights. Is because you know,
it's the weekend. I'm willing to watch things and just
(05:41):
embrace it and just say, hey, I hear you. Here's
a little mini movie for you. Then you release it
on a Friday or Saturday night. In the streaming era, Yeah, man,
everybod's gonna hang out and watch it.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Well, and.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
To your point, you know, one of the things that
this show I think still stands up. And I have
the four K discs, so I was watching these episodes
on that, and it'll be my first time to actually
go through the whole series on the discs. And I
mean one of the benefits of this show is that
(06:17):
it looks as good as any Star Wars movie. I mean,
when you think about the quality that you're getting in
the production value, if you were to release say in
you know, seventy to ninety minute increments it, I mean,
the show does feel at a level of a Star
(06:37):
Wars film that you would get on screen. So I
mean that I think is also a selling point for
what you're saying in that type of release order.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
Yeah, I think the one thing and that I'll just
I'm gonna hug the cactus here. I know the territory
I'm getting into. I think that the plus side for
them releasing it as three episodes is I think that
because of those breaks, where even though they release them
in a batch, I can watch two, I'm tired, I'm
(07:08):
going to go to bed, I'll watch the third one later,
or somebody that says, you know what, I don't care
that you released all three at once. I'm going to
watch one a night, and I'll just do it that way.
I think that some of the pacing challenges that they
have in this arc are abrogated by the breaks, these
(07:32):
built in intermissions that they have. I think that had
they released it all like I'm advocating as like a little,
you know, eighty or ninety minute movie, some of the
pacing issues become a little more apparent in how they're
approaching the material. And that's even in this rewatch. That
remains one of my biggest challenges with this first arc
(07:56):
of Andor Is. It takes a bit to get where
it's going, and it's fine to do that. I'm very
much a fan of taking your time to tell a story.
I don't mind it. However, when it's something where I'm
watching something and I think to myself, well, you know,
(08:18):
you could have cut yeah, ten seconds here and just
got into it quicker, it lingers a little bit in places.
And I think that releasing it as three episodes, people
are more forgiving of that lingering.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
I'm gonna I'm gonna throw a challenge flag for you
here because what you said about Jackie Brown and loving
the way in which that allows you to just kind
of sit in moments and and the story with the
characters and allow all this to kind of bubble up.
To me, that's the strength of this series is that
(08:55):
that's what it's doing. It's not rushing the story. It's
allowing you to actually spend the time with the characters.
And I think these first three episodes are a perfect
example of that in the sense that the way in
which you are able to kind of spend this extended
(09:15):
time specifically with and Or, So the tension slowly rises
and it keeps getting more and more intense for him,
with this sense of I've got to get out of
here because of what happened and this confrontation, you know,
with the security agents, and you know, and in all
honesty accidentally killing one of them and then shooting the
(09:38):
other guy because he's trying to get away. It's like
that ratcheting of the tension, and it's like the slow
burn nature of that is I think, actually, what in
many ways, again, I throw the challenge flag for you,
And that's exactly what you kind of loved about something
like Jackie Brown, where you're really drawing out the moment
(10:00):
and you're allowing these things to sit. And what I
think it also does is it also allows us to
because because of the place, Feryx is going to be
important for the rest of the series. At the end,
it's like, if we don't kind of draw out some
of these moments in this place, we don't get a
(10:23):
real sense of where we are and why this place
is important to and Or and the other characters that
are going to be important throughout the rest of the show.
So I would just say, it's like, that's where this
is kind of I think going for me.
Speaker 4 (10:40):
Yeah, And the thing is, I'm going to have two
reposts to you here. First and foremost, Matt, thank you
so much for bringing up the discussion of Jackie Brown
that was had on House Lights, which is here on
the Nerd Party. Hey, as we do it examine the
works of Quentin Tarantino. I love Jackie Brown. You're right,
(11:00):
it's a hangout movie, and I love that. My counterpoint
here is you're presuming that it's the Farex parts where
I think they linger too long. That is a presumption
on your part. That's not where I have my biggest
problems with the lingering. I think that there are other
parts where it lingers and it can I'm not saying
(11:22):
that the Ferrix sequence where the Blue Suits are going
after them couldn't have been tightened and given a little
bit more pep. It's there are other parts of this
three episode arc that I think that some of some
of the inter cutting that's done with flashing back to
(11:43):
his childhood doesn't work as well. It's a it causes
a bit of a pacing issue there, and I think
that I know what they're trying to do. It just
doesn't assemble the way that I think they want it
to in terms of when they're overlaying when he's look
(12:03):
essentially kidnapped from his home world. Regardless of how noble
The reasoning is he was kidnapped from his home world
and overlaying that with him leaving Feryx and he's there again,
you know, new adventures and everything. I get what they're
going for. It doesn't gel particularly well when they're on
(12:26):
the planet with the flashback. Those are a lot of
the lingering moments where I'm sitting there and we could
get to the act, like we know where we're going,
so it's okay to maybe drop a couple of shots
here and there as we're going through. I think that
some of the conversational stuff can be shortened. I'm not
(12:47):
ragging on it. I'm saying pacing is a challenge in
these first three episodes. I think it could have been tighter.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
Yeah, I mean that's definitely. I mean, like Rogue one,
you know you're wrong, and it's fine.
Speaker 4 (13:02):
I knew, I knew. See. The thing is, I knew
this was going to happen. I knew this was gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Apparently anything with and Or we're going to disagree about.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
And so I love I listen, I I I love
Diego Luna. I think that he's born for this role,
and I love that he's embraced it. Scars Guard is magnificent.
He's just phenomenal in this role. Yeah, but listen, he's
a cheat code. You put the guy in just about
anything except in Exorcist prequel and it's just great or
(13:34):
a large Van Trier movie. Avoid that one at all costs.
But I think that, I mean, you don't you don't
see any issues with these this first three episode arc
like this is it, this is a this is solid.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
This is those things where okay, this this this, there
are those things to win which you know, you watch
and you just immediately plug into, right, and so you know,
as I've recounted many times in this show, for me,
(14:12):
the Clone Wars movie was one of those things. Now, look,
I know a lot of people don't like the Clone
Wars movie, and and even though they like the Clone Wars,
it's it's it's one of their maybe least favorite things
about the Clone Wars. From the moment I saw it,
I plugged into it, and I just really liked it.
And I and you know, for me, the Mandalorian was
(14:38):
the same way. You know, that first episode completely grabbed me.
It was you know, so and or is that way,
And every time I watched it, I think the thing
that I come to is that, and I've talked to
our friend Nick about this too. It's just like I
(14:58):
am loving what they're doing, and I'm loving being with
these characters. I'm loving being in this world. I'm loving
the way we're exploring all facets, you know, and and
so you know, you bringing up his life as a child, right.
(15:19):
And one of the things that I just absolutely love
about spending that much time there is the way in
which I was just blown away by the corruption of
the republic that they're strip minding these planet so much
so that the implication is these kids have lost their parents,
oh yeah, and nobody cares, you know, and so like
(15:40):
so like again it and it and it's just it's
one of those things where it's like nobody says that
on screen because I can't understand what these kids are saying,
but they're making me as a viewer have to be,
you know, come into this and like pick up what
they're laying down without somebody on the side being like,
this is what's happening, you know. And so much television
(16:01):
just isn't done like that anymore. And so again, and
I know you're not saying that that's not something you
like or any of that. But I'm just explaining, is
the show kind of pulls me in from the very beginning,
from the very first shot, which is so incredibly done.
It's so artistic, so beautiful, you know, the going by
the lights, and then we pan down from that moment on,
(16:22):
I like I was in and so I have never
experienced that thing which you have where it's like you're
watching it and you're like, oh, I can cut this
and whatever. It's like, I'm just so who immediately and
the very.
Speaker 4 (16:35):
Yet very you know, the very opening where he's walking,
you know, and you see the lights, the funky street
lights and that scene and that vibe. No, I thought
that was a great grabber. I agree with you, that
was a great grabber. I'm just saying that there is
enough in this three episode arc where it's like it
(16:56):
grabs me there and then it loses momentum strangely. And
that's what I struggle with is I'm like, oh my gosh,
look at this momentum. Oh geez, he just murdered somebody
in cold blood. E. This is not going to be okay.
Let's get back to that thing that I like, sort
of vibe to it. And again you're right, I'm not
(17:19):
saying don't show me his youth and don't show me
what's going on there, because if there is a message
to Star Wars above and beyond the good and the
evil and living your life is a good person sort
of thing, it's that government sucks and it just throws
on a different cloak every so often, like that is
part of the DNA of Star Wars. Is any any
(17:42):
giant bureaucracy is a monolithic monster to be feared because
it cannot be it cannot have its hunger slaked by anything.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Yeah, No, And I mean in that, I mean that's
the thing I think we both completely agree on. It's
just like the way in which this show builds that
by showing it to you, I think is really incredibly done.
You know, the fact that by by allowing us to
(18:16):
see Ferris as this place to which you know, you
don't have really any true oversight yet by the empire,
and because that oversight really isn't a part of Ferris's
life now, but these actions that are being taken by
and or actually are the thing that's going to make
(18:38):
that happen, is incredibly fascinating to me because this also
is the impetus for the Empire to stop doing the
thing that it's doing right now at this point, which
is still utilizing these massive corporations and their security forces
is their first line of defense. You know, that's that's
(18:59):
still something as a holdover in some ways for those corporations,
which you know, they come back into the fold after
the Clone Wars and some of them become trusted enough
by the Empire to be utilized as a quasi military
(19:21):
force so that the Empire doesn't have to worry about
the sessions. But again, the actions of and Or this
one character are going to lead to that downfall for
this whole system, to where by the time you get
to episode four, the imperial grip is as strong as
(19:42):
it's ever going to be because there will be no
more Senate, there will be no more of these corporations.
It's just going to be the Empire and the Emperor overall.
And it's like that's you know, as Star Wars has.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Been telling us this story for so many years.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
The catalyst of the actions of one person can change
the course of the future, and so it's interesting to
watch and Or do that in this way, and then
you know the whole season is going to be about
this character becoming somebody who is molded into the revolutionary.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
That we see.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
By the time we get to Rogue one. And and
that's an incredibly fascinating story because as you mentioned, you know,
Diego Luna was so good in that movie. Here he
really just gets an opportunity to shine by being a
guy that's like, he's not really all that likable. Especially
in these first three episodes, he's kind of just a
big turn to everybody in his life.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
I I think that what I'm saying is I know
the journey that he's essentially going to take. The pacing
issues with these first three episodes make it tough to
get that sense of momentum by the end, because the
end of the third episode is really well done. It's
(21:14):
really well done the way a lot of shows are.
It's sort of the what I would call the Lost effect.
Lost would do it at the end of every hour,
where there'd be this little two minute music piece, no dialogue,
and just showing people at the end and where they're headed,
you know, where they're looking, and that sort of thing.
I think that the greatness of the ending is again
(21:37):
getting back to Scarsguard and the way that they handle
the energy of that confrontation. I think that maybe what
jumps out at me is what I'm left wondering at
the end of this is his motivation in the first
scene I meet him, is looking for his sister, and
then this box gets brought into it, and then we
(21:59):
have this pseudo corporate sector guy who is going to
be pursuing him, you know, mister tight uniform. And if
you're gonna have a three episode arc, I would have
liked to see a little bit more of that direction
clear through the end of the third episode is where
(22:22):
I expect to be at the end of a first episode,
as opposed to the end of a third episode. I
think that's where they get themselves into a little bit
of trouble. Is they treat this arc as if they
were writing a movie, which is a good thing if
you're releasing a movie. But the purpose of a pilot,
of a first hour of a of a you know,
(22:44):
or first thirty minutes or whatever, the purpose of that
first bit of show is to define those characters and
point you in the direction. I don't get that really
until the end of the third episode. And it's like
that's really the thing. I know, I keep harping on,
but like that's that's why I think it has so
much trouble, sort of like catching on with me is
(23:04):
I'm looking for that earlier or at least at a
more cohesive presentation.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Yeah, And I I just think that you're wrong in that,
Like and I you know, I'm in the sense of
like I don't get that, you know, because I think
one of the things and you were just mentioning it's like,
you know, to take the risk.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
And be.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Don't just treat this like any other TV show, you know,
do it your own way. And I think that's kind
of what they're doing in the sense that they are
treating this this is clearly a long form story, and
they're treating it as such. And yet the show itself
is broken into very specific feeling art in the sense
(24:01):
of there are four specific feeling arcs, and those are
made up of three episodes.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
And so.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
And again it feels, you know, it's it's very similar
to me of the way in which The Clone Wars
would do that, where you'd have the three episode arcs
where it's like, you know, one episode leads into the
next episode, which is the next episode. It's like you
need to watch all three or four to really get
the full story and really feel the resolution and so
(24:29):
but but.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
That, but that's that's where all jiu jitsu you here
just a little bit and say that. Now as I
go through and I'm doing that Clone Wars rewatch with
my youngest, it's a rewatch for me. It's a first
watch for her. The first season. You know, I'm a
big fan of release order and everything. We literally started
with the last episode of the first season and then
(24:51):
jumped over to another one, and then we did like
part one of a two part arc because that show, Oh,
while you're right there, you know, the storm over ryle
Off starts off. You know, you have that three episode
Ryloth arc in the first season, but the end of
(25:12):
each episode, I can watch it on its own walk off.
I'm saying that. I get what you're saying. I'm saying that,
and or I can't watch one of these episodes and
walk off, I have to watch the whole arc. And
that's the sort of cheat that I'm talking about.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Yeah, and I don't.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
I mean again, I think what I'm and I guess
I'm challenging you is is that you're there that's on purpose,
though it's not as though they're they're they're not like
that's the the thing that they're they're doing in this season,
in this series. In fact, you know, we know in
season two that you're gonna jump years every three episodes.
(25:54):
And so it's like, again that the conceit is in
this show is there's there's there's a and a.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
I know of and and so again, I.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
Like, I get that you're frustrated by it, but it's like,
I think you're frustrated by it because you want it
to do what you wanted to do instead of just
letting it speak for itself.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
Oh, don't you dare? Don't you dare? That's not at all.
Don't you dare do that? No, No, I'm not going
to let you walk away on that. That's a cheap
shot just saying no.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
No, I'm asking the question, are you not not being
open minded enough to allow it to be what it
wants to be instead of what I think it should be?
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Because you're that's what.
Speaker 4 (26:32):
You closed mindedness to different types of storytelling. It's definitely
that's my calling card. Actually, I have it on a
business card negotiations. I haven't everybody, no, I no, I
knew exactly this is where this is going to go,
because whether it's rogueing or whether it's a and or
I was like, oh boy, this is like holy writ
there's no way and like he's going to see my
point of view on this. But there are arcs later
(26:56):
in the season that work better because the way that
the individual episodes are chunked out are better suited to
this and the way that they cut the episodes up.
So that's what I'm specifically saying. When we go to
another three episode arc, there's one in specific I'm thinking of,
(27:18):
and you get to that one, I'll be like, that's
the way you do it. That is the way that
you're It's a three episode arc. But at the end
of every episode, I feel like I've gone on its
own mini arc and I'm satisfied. I'm like one and done.
I think that releasing all three at once as the
premiere was their own admission that they knew that if
(27:38):
they released only one of these or only two of these,
the audience would not have responded as well as they
were hoping.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
Well, my argument would be that's not the reason they're
doing it. They just know that the three episodes go together.
And therefore it's again you're saying that it's it's like
we're admitting that this doesn't work. What I'm saying is
that the episodes are meant to work as the three,
(28:10):
and so.
Speaker 4 (28:12):
I'm saying I'm saying they're too reliant on each other,
which you know what, again, let's go let's go to mind. No,
let's go to let's go to Skeleton Crew. They released
the first two episodes in the one night, right, you
could make a very strong argument that the first three
episodes really are the ones that work together as the
first arc there. But I was not at all annoyed
(28:34):
by the two episodes coming out. I wouldn't have been
annoyed by the one episode because where they cut it
and the way they put it together worked. Uh.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
Yeah, I will disagree with you there in the sense
that I think Skeleton Free did need those two episodes together.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
And I think they they worked.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
I think they worked better by because it really to
me that that series it, those two episodes together gave
me a much better sense of the show itself than
just the one episode did.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
And so that's where but.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
See I was. I was completely surprised and delighted and
like if I had watched Actually, I think I did
just watch the first episode the first the first night
that I watched it, and I was like sold immediately,
even though I knew it wasn't complete, and I'm saying
whatever alchemy was was, it played.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Like we're having a misunderstanding.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
I think we both know where each other is coming
from in this, we just we don't feel the same
about it.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
Tut In just a few moments ago, you said you
didn't understand where I was coming from. That's why I
keep trying to explain it.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
No, I understand where you're coming from.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
I just don't understand how you can't overcome your inability.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
To get over this issue.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
That's not really an issue, but you're making an issue
because you just don't understand it.
Speaker 4 (29:51):
Look at the very least, at the very least, I
really like and Or's gun. I think that's very cool.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
Well that's a great I So I think you bringing
that up is a perfect place for us to kind
of dive into because.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
The the even even.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Even Mandalorian, no other show looks like this in Star Wars,
like just the attention to every little detail in the
show is pretty astounding. And and that's the thing where,
like you just mentioned his gun, it's like, man, that's
(30:33):
a that's an incredible piece of design work that feels
so incredibly iconic for Star Wars, feels so understandable as
an idea, and feels so classic within the series, but
it's never brought attention to, like it just like everything
in the in the in the universe just feels real.
(30:55):
And and I think that's the other part of it
is that that production value.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
There's never a moment where.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
I'm brought out because there's an inconsistency. There's a consistency
to the work here that they're putting in from every
point of the production, which makes this a seamless experience. Then,
and you know, we've said many times when we talk
about the six or two club, right when you're watching
a film, as long as everything feels consistent, even if
(31:27):
it's not the best, it still feels better than that
moment where you have that that looked really great and
then that next moment was like what.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
Well, it's sort of I think that a lot of
the set pieces, a lot of the a lot of
the set decoration, a lot of the production design very
authentic vibe. Obviously, it helps when you go and you
find like actual structures that exist and shoot around them
and in them and be built.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
Like a whole city that people can walk around.
Speaker 4 (32:03):
But there is the only thing that it creates is
in those moments where it does use the volume to
cheat out a landscape. Is it like you can really
tell it's two different media. Like the argument for always
(32:23):
using the volume quote unquote, and I'm not saying they
should have here, but like the argument for it is
it's at least a consistent look regardless, like and eventually
your eye and your brains sort of like, okay, this
is just how it looks. I'm just gonna ignore whether
there's flatness to the screen or something like that going on.
There are certain moments where you know you're in real environment,
(32:45):
real environment, real environment, and then like when Scars Guard
is walking and it's like it's obviously like a digital
matte painting sort of or screen or whatever, and you're
just kind of like, oh okay, I can tell, let's
you know, like those are the jarring moments unfortunately, where
you're like, eh, oh okay, all right, I'm not again,
I'm not dragging the show. It's an inevitable thing. It
always happens, it doesn't matter what production it is. But
(33:10):
I'd call more attention to the fact that they were
very wise in having the production design pay attention to
the prequel and original trilogy era, because the ships that
we see, you know, I fixate on chips, the ships
(33:31):
that we see, I'm like, that looks that's right, You're
in the correct lane here. Everything is the proper Everything,
the way that it looks, the way that it feels,
the weight to everything is appropriate.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Yeah, I mean because you're right on target there again,
Like you know, you mentioned and Or's blaster, and then
you have Luthan's Fondor and I can't remember the exact designation,
but his ship, and it's like that just feels so
incredibly Star Wars and yet at the same time it's
(34:08):
like nothing we've ever seen and becomes one of the
coolest ships you've ever seen, and you're like, I just
want that in some form, whether it's in Lego or
it's like, you know, it's just like but you're right.
I mean, it's the design sensibility of truly thinking through
(34:28):
the era we're in and all of that type of
stuff to where it just it plugs in perfectly.
Speaker 4 (34:36):
And here's where I get into more trouble because, just
to piggyback on what you're saying about, you know, it
looks like it fits in. It looks like something I've
seen before, but it's not the same. There's also a
a appropriate attention to space and place within the ship
(34:57):
structures that There's another show that came out not too
long ago where the interior of the ship was like
the Tartists, where I was like that that seems really
way larger inside than the outside. Looks like I don't
know where I am in the ship right now, I
don't know what's going on. Whereas with Luthen's ship, it
gets in and I'm like, I still have a sense
(35:17):
of Okay, I remember the outside of this ship. I
know where I am walking around right now. Yes, I
know the interior of the Millennium Falcon doesn't line up,
but I'm talking about you know, you don't notice that
first and foremost when you're watching Star Wars less than
five billion times. But additionally, luthen Ship feels like the
(35:43):
interior matches what I see on the outside in terms
of space and place within. I think that the one
thing that I would come out of this three episode
arc with that I'm intrigued to see if it's something
(36:03):
I just forget about or not, is the thread with
his sister in that opening scene where he's looking for her.
No spoilers, this is my first rewatch. I don't remember
that ever being addressed again, and I am hoping it
is because I would hate for that to be the
(36:24):
dangling thing that annoys me where I keep wondering why
they didn't use Chekhov's gun sort of thing with that
they must they must say, and I.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Won't say anything. Then if you don't want to remember.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
I don't want. I want to give this as much
of a shake as possible, because listen, I'm going into
this and I'm sure people could have picked this up
on the conversation and the series didn't knock my socks off.
I did not dislike Inandor. Like I said, there's there's
some stuff coming up that I do remember that I
thought was phenomenal and I'm looking forward to seeing it again.
(37:06):
But there's other stuff where I remember it just didn't
click for me, and I want to come back at
it and say, Okay, did I you know, we'll rewatching
this help me assimilate it better.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Yeah, I mean, you know, I think I think the
beauty of this show.
Speaker 4 (37:28):
Is that.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
And one of the things I think I enjoy about
it so much is that, you know, Rogue One was
you know, it had bits of humor in it and everything,
but at the same time, it also knew that it
was a very serious movie about a very serious topic,
with a lot of characters who are going to die, right,
(37:51):
and so it was you know, in Star Wars storytelling,
this is more more like the Umbara arc, right where
we're going to tell a very dark and gritty type
of story. And so I think that the thing that
(38:12):
I always love about this show the most, and rewatching
it even now, it's like there is room and Star
Wars for the stories that are like the Umbara arc,
where we are going to deal with kind of the
absolute horror of what we're going through, and at the
same time we're also going to deal with the absolute
(38:33):
horror of people turning and being incredibly dark, like Krell,
you know, the Jedi who's willing to use his own
clones as pawn in this game, which is just absolutely terrifying,
and in this show is that slightly darker, you know,
(38:54):
more gritty. It's basically the Deep Space nine of the
Star Wars series that way. And what I appreciated about
it is that it knows what it wants to be.
It knows the tone that it wants to go for,
and it doesn't apologize for it in the same way
that none of those Clone Wars arcs did. Right. You know,
(39:16):
George Lucas made no apologies for having an arc like Ombara,
but he also made no apologies for having an arc
like the Droid arc, you know where they're lost in
the in the that weird psychedelic planet that.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Anyway with Gascon. So that's the beauty.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
Of Star Wars is that we can have these different tones.
And it's like I can love Skeleton Crew, but I
can also love and or at the same time, and
it's and I don't I'm not saying one is necessarily
better than the other. It's just more about, oh, what's
my mood right now? Do I want something more moody
(39:59):
or do I want something little bit more light? And
the beauty is is that Star Wars can encompass both,
and I think that's the kind of thing where it's
like I don't want and or need get it and
or needs.
Speaker 4 (40:10):
Oh, I got it. Yes, Star Wars.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
To all be like and Or, but I also don't
want it all to be like Skeleton Crew. I love
the variety, and I think.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
That's the beauty for me. Is I'm already watching this.
Speaker 3 (40:22):
I'm just I'm I'm enjoying the fact that that's this
type of show. You know, I've always kind of said
since this show came out, it's like, this is basically
like Star Wars attempting to do Game of Thrones level
storytelling and production value and everything where we're like, we're
(40:43):
gonna we're gonna pedal to the metal, We're gonna make
this thing happen. And so so I'm interested. Then you're
coming in obviously still pissed off about, you know, the
the the values of of like, ah, you could cut here,
(41:04):
it's in you know, little trimming.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
But was there anything in the in the.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
Rewatch of these three episodes that either changed for the
good or for the ill?
Speaker 4 (41:16):
In your opinion, it was pretty much a push. It
was I had pretty much the same reaction, which was
I liked it. I thought it was good, and I'm
invested enough to keep going. But I wasn't charging around
being like, you got it, Oh, this was fantastic. I
was like, that was good. So hey, you know that
(41:39):
that that puts me that this three episode arc somewhere
it's probably like in the three and a half, maybe
bump it up to four for the production value, Like
the production design and the set decoration were really really sharp.
So you know, out of five, probably like a three
and a half to four something like that, and I
(42:00):
know you've got a ten out of five.
Speaker 3 (42:03):
No, I actually think and part of this is just
thinking to the rest of the season, and I think
this is probably a good four point two five at
four point five maybe, but it's what's.
Speaker 4 (42:19):
The difference four point three two? Just make it a four.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
It's not a five, right, you know. And part of
that is just because like it's just the setup. I
think it's an incredibly good setup. I'm invested. I'm already
loving it. I was loving it when I first watched it,
I'm loving it again. And yet I'm also thinking, because
(42:42):
I can't, you know, not think about now what I
know is going to come in the series. And yeah,
this is not the best part of the series, but
I think it's an incredibly solid start. And you know,
if I was just going on for reduction value alone,
I mean this is a five. I mean, especially what
(43:05):
I'm thinking of, like.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
The book, you know, and things like that.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
Yeah, this is just like a whole other level, right,
I mean, they're not even in the same universe.
Speaker 4 (43:18):
They definitely had different methods and different approaches. But it's
important always to remember Book of Boba Fett was hamstrung
by production limitations of the time. Like aays, I always
try to remember that that Book of Boba Fett, some
of those limitations you're talking about, there was nothing that
could be done. It was either make it the way
(43:40):
that they could or not make it at all. And
I admire them for taking a big swing at it
and saying, we'll do the best we can with what
we can.
Speaker 3 (43:49):
Just leave that out, just just just just don't do that.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
Just don't don't.
Speaker 4 (43:54):
I could do that easily have been cut and not
anybody would have minded. But what I would minded is
if nobody reached out to you online, where can they
find you online?
Speaker 3 (44:04):
Matt absolutely find me all over the place on social
media under the name Matt Rushing zero two. Of course,
here on the network, you'll also find me on a
completed show called Owlposts talking about every single chapter the
Harry Potter series. On the TFM network, you'll find me
doing a bunch of shows. John is a guest over
there on the six or two Club, where we're talking
about all of those franchises we love, plus a lot
(44:26):
of great star trek talk over there. So I really
do hope that you will check all of that out.
But John, you know, if people wanted to catch up
with you, talk more Star Wars, maybe get deeper into
the weeds on you know, possibly try and change your mind.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
Where can people find.
Speaker 4 (44:42):
You, Well, you can find me as cassel Junkie online
k S s E l j U n ki E,
just running into walls with my shortsightedness that didn't allow
me to see the absolute brilliance of this first three
episode arc of and Or. It's tough. It's tough. I
avoid stairs because I just can't see them in front
of me, apparently, And you can, of course find me
on a show here on the network mentioned before, where
(45:03):
I was heaping praise on Jackie Brown House Lights which
I co host with Darren Moser and Tristan Riddell. We
have a time. Come on over hang out with us.
We'd love to have you. But Matt, I'm hearing a
lot of bogging in the background right now, so I
think that's our signal to close these negotiations, John negotiations.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
Fun clubs, Join the Revolution, Join the nerd Party.
Welcome to the ned Palty.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hi, this is Nick and Astasu, story editor on Star Wars,
The Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch, and you
are listening to aggressive negotiations.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Well, hello and welcome from Ferricks. This is aggressive negotiations.
I hope you can hear us over the incessant banging
on metal. I am just one of your hosts here,
Matthew Rushing and with me as he is every single week,
rebellious Jedi Master John.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
Mills frankly disappointed that they didn't take the opportunity to
have a tie in song written for and Or that
was a heavy metal song, get it, and it would
start with the metal and the banging. Say, this is
why I need to be in that boardroom with Disney,
because these are the ideas they would get for free.
But as added bonus for everybody that goes over to
(01:02):
Apple Podcasts and leaves us a review, we will continue
giving out these great ideas for free. So head on
over there and give us a review and a star rating.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Well, we've got something really fun for everybody, John, because
we're coming at you live from Ferris. As we place
our bricks on the kiln where we're getting ready for
when we hit the bricks finally one day and well,
we're really excited because and our season two is going
(01:31):
to be coming out. We thought, well, why don't we
go back and talk about and or season one. We've
never actually sat down and really talked through all of
the episodes together, and so what we're going to do.
We're going to actually attack this the xact same way
that the season was released, where they released as a
premiere the first three episodes of Casa, What would be
(01:51):
Me and Reckoning all together as a mini arc to
kick off the series. And so, first, John, I got
to ask you, is we you know, dive into talking
about the series again. Do you think that it was
a wise move of them to release these first three
episodes together, since they truly do, basically in many ways
(02:15):
like those Clone Wars arcs, create an arc of this story.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
Yes, and no, I think it was wise of them
to release all three at once. I remember when it
came out, I was unable to watch all three at
one time because I had to go to sleep and
you know, had a lot of obligations the following morning
to worry over and being on the East Coast, which
is the real coast. You know that that would put
(02:43):
it pretty late at night, and hey, hey, hey they
judge when football games are played by my coast. All right,
I don't want to hear it. But the the thing
that I would say was unwise about it was the
three episode arc was apparently better if they had just
(03:08):
released it as a little mini movie, maybe a seventy
minute movie, and approached it not as separate episodes that
played well together. But the way that the Benedict Cumberbatch
Sherlock Home series approached it and said, here are three
nice episodes that are of seventy to ninety minute length.
(03:30):
Enjoy that would have worked for me a bit better
than the three episodes.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Yeah, I could definitely understand what you're saying. I think,
you know, it's interesting because at that point, you know,
you yourself would almost still run into the same issue
unless you were doing a specific rewatch where it's like
the episode drops and you're like, oh, seventy minutes. I
(03:57):
don't have seventy minutes, so I'm gonna like watch a
you know, are of it, and then I'm gonna go
to bed and then.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
You know, so in some ways, it's like.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
It's a toss up as to whether or not it
would truly work better, because in some ways, I think, like,
as we're watching it now, right, if you the season
itself is actually split into four different arcs, and they
all consist of of three episodes basically, so if you
(04:28):
watch it in three episode increments, it creates this kind
of like movement of and Or's life, and so in
many ways I could see what you're saying, and at
the same time, it's like, yeah, I don't know if
it necessarily would have made too much of a difference
(04:49):
for many people, except maybe in like a rewatch where
they're you know, they know what's coming and they can
prepare then to sit down and watch seventy minutes or
eighty minutes together.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
My counterpoint would be, even if you go as high
as ninety minutes, if instead of being precious about it
and stretching out the content to episodes that you later
construct as a weekly release sort of thing, if you
embrace that mini movie approach, then you release it not
(05:21):
on a Tuesday or a Wednesday for whatever bizarre reason
they rationalize releasing on Tuesdays and Wednesdays. Make it a
Friday night movie event like seriously. That's why they would
have Yeah, you know, the NBC would have have movies
on on Saturday nights or Sunday nights. Is because you know,
it's the weekend. I'm willing to watch things and just
(05:41):
embrace it and just say, hey, I hear you. Here's
a little mini movie for you. Then you release it
on a Friday or Saturday night. In the streaming era, Yeah, man,
everybod's gonna hang out and watch it.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Well, and.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
To your point, you know, one of the things that
this show I think still stands up. And I have
the four K discs, so I was watching these episodes
on that, and it'll be my first time to actually
go through the whole series on the discs. And I
mean one of the benefits of this show is that
(06:17):
it looks as good as any Star Wars movie. I mean,
when you think about the quality that you're getting in
the production value, if you were to release say in
you know, seventy to ninety minute increments it, I mean,
the show does feel at a level of a Star
(06:37):
Wars film that you would get on screen. So I
mean that I think is also a selling point for
what you're saying in that type of release order.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
Yeah, I think the one thing and that I'll just
I'm gonna hug the cactus here. I know the territory
I'm getting into. I think that the plus side for
them releasing it as three episodes is I think that
because of those breaks, where even though they release them
in a batch, I can watch two, I'm tired, I'm
(07:08):
going to go to bed, I'll watch the third one later,
or somebody that says, you know what, I don't care
that you released all three at once. I'm going to
watch one a night, and I'll just do it that way.
I think that some of the pacing challenges that they
have in this arc are abrogated by the breaks, these
(07:32):
built in intermissions that they have. I think that had
they released it all like I'm advocating as like a little,
you know, eighty or ninety minute movie, some of the
pacing issues become a little more apparent in how they're
approaching the material. And that's even in this rewatch. That
remains one of my biggest challenges with this first arc
(07:56):
of Andor Is. It takes a bit to get where
it's going, and it's fine to do that. I'm very
much a fan of taking your time to tell a story.
I don't mind it. However, when it's something where I'm
watching something and I think to myself, well, you know,
(08:18):
you could have cut yeah, ten seconds here and just
got into it quicker, it lingers a little bit in places.
And I think that releasing it as three episodes, people
are more forgiving of that lingering.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
I'm gonna I'm gonna throw a challenge flag for you
here because what you said about Jackie Brown and loving
the way in which that allows you to just kind
of sit in moments and and the story with the
characters and allow all this to kind of bubble up.
To me, that's the strength of this series is that
(08:55):
that's what it's doing. It's not rushing the story. It's
allowing you to actually spend the time with the characters.
And I think these first three episodes are a perfect
example of that in the sense that the way in
which you are able to kind of spend this extended
(09:15):
time specifically with and Or, So the tension slowly rises
and it keeps getting more and more intense for him,
with this sense of I've got to get out of
here because of what happened and this confrontation, you know,
with the security agents, and you know, and in all
honesty accidentally killing one of them and then shooting the
(09:38):
other guy because he's trying to get away. It's like
that ratcheting of the tension, and it's like the slow
burn nature of that is I think, actually, what in
many ways, again, I throw the challenge flag for you,
And that's exactly what you kind of loved about something
like Jackie Brown, where you're really drawing out the moment
(10:00):
and you're allowing these things to sit. And what I
think it also does is it also allows us to
because because of the place, Feryx is going to be
important for the rest of the series. At the end,
it's like, if we don't kind of draw out some
of these moments in this place, we don't get a
(10:23):
real sense of where we are and why this place
is important to and Or and the other characters that
are going to be important throughout the rest of the show.
So I would just say, it's like, that's where this
is kind of I think going for me.
Speaker 4 (10:40):
Yeah, And the thing is, I'm going to have two
reposts to you here. First and foremost, Matt, thank you
so much for bringing up the discussion of Jackie Brown
that was had on House Lights, which is here on
the Nerd Party. Hey, as we do it examine the
works of Quentin Tarantino. I love Jackie Brown. You're right,
(11:00):
it's a hangout movie, and I love that. My counterpoint
here is you're presuming that it's the Farex parts where
I think they linger too long. That is a presumption
on your part. That's not where I have my biggest
problems with the lingering. I think that there are other
parts where it lingers and it can I'm not saying
(11:22):
that the Ferrix sequence where the Blue Suits are going
after them couldn't have been tightened and given a little
bit more pep. It's there are other parts of this
three episode arc that I think that some of some
of the inter cutting that's done with flashing back to
(11:43):
his childhood doesn't work as well. It's a it causes
a bit of a pacing issue there, and I think
that I know what they're trying to do. It just
doesn't assemble the way that I think they want it
to in terms of when they're overlaying when he's look
(12:03):
essentially kidnapped from his home world. Regardless of how noble
The reasoning is he was kidnapped from his home world
and overlaying that with him leaving Feryx and he's there again,
you know, new adventures and everything. I get what they're
going for. It doesn't gel particularly well when they're on
(12:26):
the planet with the flashback. Those are a lot of
the lingering moments where I'm sitting there and we could
get to the act, like we know where we're going,
so it's okay to maybe drop a couple of shots
here and there as we're going through. I think that
some of the conversational stuff can be shortened. I'm not
(12:47):
ragging on it. I'm saying pacing is a challenge in
these first three episodes. I think it could have been tighter.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
Yeah, I mean that's definitely. I mean, like Rogue one,
you know you're wrong, and it's fine.
Speaker 4 (13:02):
I knew, I knew. See. The thing is, I knew
this was going to happen. I knew this was gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Apparently anything with and Or we're going to disagree about.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
And so I love I listen, I I I love
Diego Luna. I think that he's born for this role,
and I love that he's embraced it. Scars Guard is magnificent.
He's just phenomenal in this role. Yeah, but listen, he's
a cheat code. You put the guy in just about
anything except in Exorcist prequel and it's just great or
(13:34):
a large Van Trier movie. Avoid that one at all costs.
But I think that, I mean, you don't you don't
see any issues with these this first three episode arc
like this is it, this is a this is solid.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
This is those things where okay, this this this, there
are those things to win which you know, you watch
and you just immediately plug into, right, and so you know,
as I've recounted many times in this show, for me,
(14:12):
the Clone Wars movie was one of those things. Now, look,
I know a lot of people don't like the Clone
Wars movie, and and even though they like the Clone Wars,
it's it's it's one of their maybe least favorite things
about the Clone Wars. From the moment I saw it,
I plugged into it, and I just really liked it.
And I and you know, for me, the Mandalorian was
(14:38):
the same way. You know, that first episode completely grabbed me.
It was you know, so and or is that way,
And every time I watched it, I think the thing
that I come to is that, and I've talked to
our friend Nick about this too. It's just like I
(14:58):
am loving what they're doing, and I'm loving being with
these characters. I'm loving being in this world. I'm loving
the way we're exploring all facets, you know, and and
so you know, you bringing up his life as a child, right.
(15:19):
And one of the things that I just absolutely love
about spending that much time there is the way in
which I was just blown away by the corruption of
the republic that they're strip minding these planet so much
so that the implication is these kids have lost their parents,
oh yeah, and nobody cares, you know, and so like
(15:40):
so like again it and it and it's just it's
one of those things where it's like nobody says that
on screen because I can't understand what these kids are saying,
but they're making me as a viewer have to be,
you know, come into this and like pick up what
they're laying down without somebody on the side being like,
this is what's happening, you know. And so much television
(16:01):
just isn't done like that anymore. And so again, and
I know you're not saying that that's not something you
like or any of that. But I'm just explaining, is
the show kind of pulls me in from the very beginning,
from the very first shot, which is so incredibly done.
It's so artistic, so beautiful, you know, the going by
the lights, and then we pan down from that moment on,
(16:22):
I like I was in and so I have never
experienced that thing which you have where it's like you're
watching it and you're like, oh, I can cut this
and whatever. It's like, I'm just so who immediately and
the very.
Speaker 4 (16:35):
Yet very you know, the very opening where he's walking,
you know, and you see the lights, the funky street
lights and that scene and that vibe. No, I thought
that was a great grabber. I agree with you, that
was a great grabber. I'm just saying that there is
enough in this three episode arc where it's like it
(16:56):
grabs me there and then it loses momentum strangely. And
that's what I struggle with is I'm like, oh my gosh,
look at this momentum. Oh geez, he just murdered somebody
in cold blood. E. This is not going to be okay.
Let's get back to that thing that I like, sort
of vibe to it. And again you're right, I'm not
(17:19):
saying don't show me his youth and don't show me
what's going on there, because if there is a message
to Star Wars above and beyond the good and the
evil and living your life is a good person sort
of thing, it's that government sucks and it just throws
on a different cloak every so often, like that is
part of the DNA of Star Wars. Is any any
(17:42):
giant bureaucracy is a monolithic monster to be feared because
it cannot be it cannot have its hunger slaked by anything.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Yeah, No, And I mean in that, I mean that's
the thing I think we both completely agree on. It's
just like the way in which this show builds that
by showing it to you, I think is really incredibly done.
You know, the fact that by by allowing us to
(18:16):
see Ferris as this place to which you know, you
don't have really any true oversight yet by the empire,
and because that oversight really isn't a part of Ferris's
life now, but these actions that are being taken by
and or actually are the thing that's going to make
(18:38):
that happen, is incredibly fascinating to me because this also
is the impetus for the Empire to stop doing the
thing that it's doing right now at this point, which
is still utilizing these massive corporations and their security forces
is their first line of defense. You know, that's that's
(18:59):
still something as a holdover in some ways for those corporations,
which you know, they come back into the fold after
the Clone Wars and some of them become trusted enough
by the Empire to be utilized as a quasi military
(19:21):
force so that the Empire doesn't have to worry about
the sessions. But again, the actions of and Or this
one character are going to lead to that downfall for
this whole system, to where by the time you get
to episode four, the imperial grip is as strong as
(19:42):
it's ever going to be because there will be no
more Senate, there will be no more of these corporations.
It's just going to be the Empire and the Emperor overall.
And it's like that's you know, as Star Wars has.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Been telling us this story for so many years.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
The catalyst of the actions of one person can change
the course of the future, and so it's interesting to
watch and Or do that in this way, and then
you know the whole season is going to be about
this character becoming somebody who is molded into the revolutionary.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
That we see.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
By the time we get to Rogue one. And and
that's an incredibly fascinating story because as you mentioned, you know,
Diego Luna was so good in that movie. Here he
really just gets an opportunity to shine by being a
guy that's like, he's not really all that likable. Especially
in these first three episodes, he's kind of just a
big turn to everybody in his life.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
I I think that what I'm saying is I know
the journey that he's essentially going to take. The pacing
issues with these first three episodes make it tough to
get that sense of momentum by the end, because the
end of the third episode is really well done. It's
(21:14):
really well done the way a lot of shows are.
It's sort of the what I would call the Lost effect.
Lost would do it at the end of every hour,
where there'd be this little two minute music piece, no dialogue,
and just showing people at the end and where they're headed,
you know, where they're looking, and that sort of thing.
I think that the greatness of the ending is again
(21:37):
getting back to Scarsguard and the way that they handle
the energy of that confrontation. I think that maybe what
jumps out at me is what I'm left wondering at
the end of this is his motivation in the first
scene I meet him, is looking for his sister, and
then this box gets brought into it, and then we
(21:59):
have this pseudo corporate sector guy who is going to
be pursuing him, you know, mister tight uniform. And if
you're gonna have a three episode arc, I would have
liked to see a little bit more of that direction
clear through the end of the third episode is where
(22:22):
I expect to be at the end of a first episode,
as opposed to the end of a third episode. I
think that's where they get themselves into a little bit
of trouble. Is they treat this arc as if they
were writing a movie, which is a good thing if
you're releasing a movie. But the purpose of a pilot,
of a first hour of a of a you know,
(22:44):
or first thirty minutes or whatever, the purpose of that
first bit of show is to define those characters and
point you in the direction. I don't get that really
until the end of the third episode. And it's like
that's really the thing. I know, I keep harping on,
but like that's that's why I think it has so
much trouble, sort of like catching on with me is
(23:04):
I'm looking for that earlier or at least at a
more cohesive presentation.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Yeah, And I I just think that you're wrong in that,
Like and I you know, I'm in the sense of
like I don't get that, you know, because I think
one of the things and you were just mentioning it's like,
you know, to take the risk.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
And be.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Don't just treat this like any other TV show, you know,
do it your own way. And I think that's kind
of what they're doing in the sense that they are
treating this this is clearly a long form story, and
they're treating it as such. And yet the show itself
is broken into very specific feeling art in the sense
(24:01):
of there are four specific feeling arcs, and those are
made up of three episodes.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
And so.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
And again it feels, you know, it's it's very similar
to me of the way in which The Clone Wars
would do that, where you'd have the three episode arcs
where it's like, you know, one episode leads into the
next episode, which is the next episode. It's like you
need to watch all three or four to really get
the full story and really feel the resolution and so
(24:29):
but but.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
That, but that's that's where all jiu jitsu you here
just a little bit and say that. Now as I
go through and I'm doing that Clone Wars rewatch with
my youngest, it's a rewatch for me. It's a first
watch for her. The first season. You know, I'm a
big fan of release order and everything. We literally started
with the last episode of the first season and then
(24:51):
jumped over to another one, and then we did like
part one of a two part arc because that show, Oh,
while you're right there, you know, the storm over ryle
Off starts off. You know, you have that three episode
Ryloth arc in the first season, but the end of
(25:12):
each episode, I can watch it on its own walk off.
I'm saying that. I get what you're saying. I'm saying that,
and or I can't watch one of these episodes and
walk off, I have to watch the whole arc. And
that's the sort of cheat that I'm talking about.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Yeah, and I don't.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
I mean again, I think what I'm and I guess
I'm challenging you is is that you're there that's on purpose,
though it's not as though they're they're they're not like
that's the the thing that they're they're doing in this season,
in this series. In fact, you know, we know in
season two that you're gonna jump years every three episodes.
(25:54):
And so it's like, again that the conceit is in
this show is there's there's there's a and a.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
I know of and and so again, I.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
Like, I get that you're frustrated by it, but it's like,
I think you're frustrated by it because you want it
to do what you wanted to do instead of just
letting it speak for itself.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
Oh, don't you dare? Don't you dare? That's not at all.
Don't you dare do that? No, No, I'm not going
to let you walk away on that. That's a cheap
shot just saying no.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
No, I'm asking the question, are you not not being
open minded enough to allow it to be what it
wants to be instead of what I think it should be?
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Because you're that's what.
Speaker 4 (26:32):
You closed mindedness to different types of storytelling. It's definitely
that's my calling card. Actually, I have it on a
business card negotiations. I haven't everybody, no, I no, I
knew exactly this is where this is going to go,
because whether it's rogueing or whether it's a and or
I was like, oh boy, this is like holy writ
there's no way and like he's going to see my
point of view on this. But there are arcs later
(26:56):
in the season that work better because the way that
the individual episodes are chunked out are better suited to
this and the way that they cut the episodes up.
So that's what I'm specifically saying. When we go to
another three episode arc, there's one in specific I'm thinking of,
(27:18):
and you get to that one, I'll be like, that's
the way you do it. That is the way that
you're It's a three episode arc. But at the end
of every episode, I feel like I've gone on its
own mini arc and I'm satisfied. I'm like one and done.
I think that releasing all three at once as the
premiere was their own admission that they knew that if
(27:38):
they released only one of these or only two of these,
the audience would not have responded as well as they
were hoping.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
Well, my argument would be that's not the reason they're
doing it. They just know that the three episodes go together.
And therefore it's again you're saying that it's it's like
we're admitting that this doesn't work. What I'm saying is
that the episodes are meant to work as the three,
(28:10):
and so.
Speaker 4 (28:12):
I'm saying I'm saying they're too reliant on each other,
which you know what, again, let's go let's go to mind. No,
let's go to let's go to Skeleton Crew. They released
the first two episodes in the one night, right, you
could make a very strong argument that the first three
episodes really are the ones that work together as the
first arc there. But I was not at all annoyed
(28:34):
by the two episodes coming out. I wouldn't have been
annoyed by the one episode because where they cut it
and the way they put it together worked. Uh.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
Yeah, I will disagree with you there in the sense
that I think Skeleton Free did need those two episodes together.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
And I think they they worked.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
I think they worked better by because it really to
me that that series it, those two episodes together gave
me a much better sense of the show itself than
just the one episode did.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
And so that's where but.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
See I was. I was completely surprised and delighted and
like if I had watched Actually, I think I did
just watch the first episode the first the first night
that I watched it, and I was like sold immediately,
even though I knew it wasn't complete, and I'm saying
whatever alchemy was was, it played.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Like we're having a misunderstanding.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
I think we both know where each other is coming
from in this, we just we don't feel the same
about it.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
Tut In just a few moments ago, you said you
didn't understand where I was coming from. That's why I
keep trying to explain it.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
No, I understand where you're coming from.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
I just don't understand how you can't overcome your inability.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
To get over this issue.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
That's not really an issue, but you're making an issue
because you just don't understand it.
Speaker 4 (29:51):
Look at the very least, at the very least, I
really like and Or's gun. I think that's very cool.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
Well that's a great I So I think you bringing
that up is a perfect place for us to kind
of dive into because.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
The the even even.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Even Mandalorian, no other show looks like this in Star Wars,
like just the attention to every little detail in the
show is pretty astounding. And and that's the thing where,
like you just mentioned his gun, it's like, man, that's
(30:33):
a that's an incredible piece of design work that feels
so incredibly iconic for Star Wars, feels so understandable as
an idea, and feels so classic within the series, but
it's never brought attention to, like it just like everything
in the in the in the universe just feels real.
(30:55):
And and I think that's the other part of it
is that that production value.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
There's never a moment where.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
I'm brought out because there's an inconsistency. There's a consistency
to the work here that they're putting in from every
point of the production, which makes this a seamless experience. Then,
and you know, we've said many times when we talk
about the six or two club, right when you're watching
a film, as long as everything feels consistent, even if
(31:27):
it's not the best, it still feels better than that
moment where you have that that looked really great and
then that next moment was like what.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
Well, it's sort of I think that a lot of
the set pieces, a lot of the a lot of
the set decoration, a lot of the production design very
authentic vibe. Obviously, it helps when you go and you
find like actual structures that exist and shoot around them
and in them and be built.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
Like a whole city that people can walk around.
Speaker 4 (32:03):
But there is the only thing that it creates is
in those moments where it does use the volume to
cheat out a landscape. Is it like you can really
tell it's two different media. Like the argument for always
(32:23):
using the volume quote unquote, and I'm not saying they
should have here, but like the argument for it is
it's at least a consistent look regardless, like and eventually
your eye and your brains sort of like, okay, this
is just how it looks. I'm just gonna ignore whether
there's flatness to the screen or something like that going on.
There are certain moments where you know you're in real environment,
(32:45):
real environment, real environment, and then like when Scars Guard
is walking and it's like it's obviously like a digital
matte painting sort of or screen or whatever, and you're
just kind of like, oh okay, I can tell, let's
you know, like those are the jarring moments unfortunately, where
you're like, eh, oh okay, all right, I'm not again,
I'm not dragging the show. It's an inevitable thing. It
always happens, it doesn't matter what production it is. But
(33:10):
I'd call more attention to the fact that they were
very wise in having the production design pay attention to
the prequel and original trilogy era, because the ships that
we see, you know, I fixate on chips, the ships
(33:31):
that we see, I'm like, that looks that's right, You're
in the correct lane here. Everything is the proper Everything,
the way that it looks, the way that it feels,
the weight to everything is appropriate.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Yeah, I mean because you're right on target there again,
Like you know, you mentioned and Or's blaster, and then
you have Luthan's Fondor and I can't remember the exact designation,
but his ship, and it's like that just feels so
incredibly Star Wars and yet at the same time it's
(34:08):
like nothing we've ever seen and becomes one of the
coolest ships you've ever seen, and you're like, I just
want that in some form, whether it's in Lego or
it's like, you know, it's just like but you're right.
I mean, it's the design sensibility of truly thinking through
(34:28):
the era we're in and all of that type of
stuff to where it just it plugs in perfectly.
Speaker 4 (34:36):
And here's where I get into more trouble because, just
to piggyback on what you're saying about, you know, it
looks like it fits in. It looks like something I've
seen before, but it's not the same. There's also a
a appropriate attention to space and place within the ship
(34:57):
structures that There's another show that came out not too
long ago where the interior of the ship was like
the Tartists, where I was like that that seems really
way larger inside than the outside. Looks like I don't
know where I am in the ship right now, I
don't know what's going on. Whereas with Luthen's ship, it
gets in and I'm like, I still have a sense
(35:17):
of Okay, I remember the outside of this ship. I
know where I am walking around right now. Yes, I
know the interior of the Millennium Falcon doesn't line up,
but I'm talking about you know, you don't notice that
first and foremost when you're watching Star Wars less than
five billion times. But additionally, luthen Ship feels like the
(35:43):
interior matches what I see on the outside in terms
of space and place within. I think that the one
thing that I would come out of this three episode
arc with that I'm intrigued to see if it's something
(36:03):
I just forget about or not, is the thread with
his sister in that opening scene where he's looking for her.
No spoilers, this is my first rewatch. I don't remember
that ever being addressed again, and I am hoping it
is because I would hate for that to be the
(36:24):
dangling thing that annoys me where I keep wondering why
they didn't use Chekhov's gun sort of thing with that
they must they must say, and I.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Won't say anything. Then if you don't want to remember.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
I don't want. I want to give this as much
of a shake as possible, because listen, I'm going into
this and I'm sure people could have picked this up
on the conversation and the series didn't knock my socks off.
I did not dislike Inandor. Like I said, there's there's
some stuff coming up that I do remember that I
thought was phenomenal and I'm looking forward to seeing it again.
(37:06):
But there's other stuff where I remember it just didn't
click for me, and I want to come back at
it and say, Okay, did I you know, we'll rewatching
this help me assimilate it better.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Yeah, I mean, you know, I think I think the
beauty of this show.
Speaker 4 (37:28):
Is that.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
And one of the things I think I enjoy about
it so much is that, you know, Rogue One was
you know, it had bits of humor in it and everything,
but at the same time, it also knew that it
was a very serious movie about a very serious topic,
with a lot of characters who are going to die, right,
(37:51):
and so it was you know, in Star Wars storytelling,
this is more more like the Umbara arc, right where
we're going to tell a very dark and gritty type
of story. And so I think that the thing that
(38:12):
I always love about this show the most, and rewatching
it even now, it's like there is room and Star
Wars for the stories that are like the Umbara arc,
where we are going to deal with kind of the
absolute horror of what we're going through, and at the
same time we're also going to deal with the absolute
(38:33):
horror of people turning and being incredibly dark, like Krell,
you know, the Jedi who's willing to use his own
clones as pawn in this game, which is just absolutely terrifying,
and in this show is that slightly darker, you know,
(38:54):
more gritty. It's basically the Deep Space nine of the
Star Wars series that way. And what I appreciated about
it is that it knows what it wants to be.
It knows the tone that it wants to go for,
and it doesn't apologize for it in the same way
that none of those Clone Wars arcs did. Right. You know,
(39:16):
George Lucas made no apologies for having an arc like Ombara,
but he also made no apologies for having an arc
like the Droid arc, you know where they're lost in
the in the that weird psychedelic planet that.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Anyway with Gascon. So that's the beauty.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
Of Star Wars is that we can have these different tones.
And it's like I can love Skeleton Crew, but I
can also love and or at the same time, and
it's and I don't I'm not saying one is necessarily
better than the other. It's just more about, oh, what's
my mood right now? Do I want something more moody
(39:59):
or do I want something little bit more light? And
the beauty is is that Star Wars can encompass both,
and I think that's the kind of thing where it's
like I don't want and or need get it and
or needs.
Speaker 4 (40:10):
Oh, I got it. Yes, Star Wars.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
To all be like and Or, but I also don't
want it all to be like Skeleton Crew. I love
the variety, and I think.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
That's the beauty for me. Is I'm already watching this.
Speaker 3 (40:22):
I'm just I'm I'm enjoying the fact that that's this
type of show. You know, I've always kind of said
since this show came out, it's like, this is basically
like Star Wars attempting to do Game of Thrones level
storytelling and production value and everything where we're like, we're
(40:43):
gonna we're gonna pedal to the metal, We're gonna make
this thing happen. And so so I'm interested. Then you're
coming in obviously still pissed off about, you know, the
the the values of of like, ah, you could cut here,
(41:04):
it's in you know, little trimming.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
But was there anything in the in the.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
Rewatch of these three episodes that either changed for the
good or for the ill?
Speaker 4 (41:16):
In your opinion, it was pretty much a push. It
was I had pretty much the same reaction, which was
I liked it. I thought it was good, and I'm
invested enough to keep going. But I wasn't charging around
being like, you got it, Oh, this was fantastic. I
was like, that was good. So hey, you know that
(41:39):
that that puts me that this three episode arc somewhere
it's probably like in the three and a half, maybe
bump it up to four for the production value, Like
the production design and the set decoration were really really sharp.
So you know, out of five, probably like a three
and a half to four something like that, and I
(42:00):
know you've got a ten out of five.
Speaker 3 (42:03):
No, I actually think and part of this is just
thinking to the rest of the season, and I think
this is probably a good four point two five at
four point five maybe, but it's what's.
Speaker 4 (42:19):
The difference four point three two? Just make it a four.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
It's not a five, right, you know. And part of
that is just because like it's just the setup. I
think it's an incredibly good setup. I'm invested. I'm already
loving it. I was loving it when I first watched it,
I'm loving it again. And yet I'm also thinking, because
(42:42):
I can't, you know, not think about now what I
know is going to come in the series. And yeah,
this is not the best part of the series, but
I think it's an incredibly solid start. And you know,
if I was just going on for reduction value alone,
I mean this is a five. I mean, especially what
(43:05):
I'm thinking of, like.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
The book, you know, and things like that.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
Yeah, this is just like a whole other level, right,
I mean, they're not even in the same universe.
Speaker 4 (43:18):
They definitely had different methods and different approaches. But it's
important always to remember Book of Boba Fett was hamstrung
by production limitations of the time. Like aays, I always
try to remember that that Book of Boba Fett, some
of those limitations you're talking about, there was nothing that
could be done. It was either make it the way
(43:40):
that they could or not make it at all. And
I admire them for taking a big swing at it
and saying, we'll do the best we can with what
we can.
Speaker 3 (43:49):
Just leave that out, just just just just don't do that.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
Just don't don't.
Speaker 4 (43:54):
I could do that easily have been cut and not
anybody would have minded. But what I would minded is
if nobody reached out to you online, where can they
find you online?
Speaker 3 (44:04):
Matt absolutely find me all over the place on social
media under the name Matt Rushing zero two. Of course,
here on the network, you'll also find me on a
completed show called Owlposts talking about every single chapter the
Harry Potter series. On the TFM network, you'll find me
doing a bunch of shows. John is a guest over
there on the six or two Club, where we're talking
about all of those franchises we love, plus a lot
(44:26):
of great star trek talk over there. So I really
do hope that you will check all of that out.
But John, you know, if people wanted to catch up
with you, talk more Star Wars, maybe get deeper into
the weeds on you know, possibly try and change your mind.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
Where can people find.
Speaker 4 (44:42):
You, Well, you can find me as cassel Junkie online
k S s E l j U n ki E,
just running into walls with my shortsightedness that didn't allow
me to see the absolute brilliance of this first three
episode arc of and Or. It's tough. It's tough. I
avoid stairs because I just can't see them in front
of me, apparently, And you can, of course find me
on a show here on the network mentioned before, where
(45:03):
I was heaping praise on Jackie Brown House Lights which
I co host with Darren Moser and Tristan Riddell. We
have a time. Come on over hang out with us.
We'd love to have you. But Matt, I'm hearing a
lot of bogging in the background right now, so I
think that's our signal to close these negotiations, John negotiations.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
Fun clubs, Join the Revolution, Join the nerd Party.
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Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!