March 7, 2025 • 38 mins
As Andor Season 2 draws one week closer, Matt and John continue their StarWars: Andor rewatch to discuss their opinions of the fourth episode. Things got spicy last week with John’s heterodox opinion that Andor got off to a lukewarm start. Will tensions continue to rise like those within the rebel cell, or will cooler heads prevail in these Aggressive Negotiation?
This episode features an in-depth discussion of the fourth episode of Star Wars: Andor, as they continue to explore what the filmmakers were working to accomplish.
Host
John Mills and Matthew Rushing
Love listening to Aggressive Negotiations, a Star Wars podcast that’s different from all the rest? Then you’ll love The Nerd Party, a one-of-a-kind podcast network focused on all the best of Star Trek, the magical realm of the Harry Potter books, the works of the best film directors in history, the latest from international film and comic stars, and so much more!
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Twitter: @TheJediMasters
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheNerdParty/
Email: http://www.thenerdparty.com/contact
Subscribe in Apple Podcasts
This episode features an in-depth discussion of the fourth episode of Star Wars: Andor, as they continue to explore what the filmmakers were working to accomplish.
Host
John Mills and Matthew Rushing
Love listening to Aggressive Negotiations, a Star Wars podcast that’s different from all the rest? Then you’ll love The Nerd Party, a one-of-a-kind podcast network focused on all the best of Star Trek, the magical realm of the Harry Potter books, the works of the best film directors in history, the latest from international film and comic stars, and so much more!
Send us your feedback!
Twitter: @TheJediMasters
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheNerdParty/
Email: http://www.thenerdparty.com/contact
Subscribe in Apple Podcasts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the ned Palty.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hi.
Speaker 3 (00:06):
This is Nick and Astasu, story editor on Star Wars,
The Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch, and you
are listening to aggressive negotiations.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Welcome back to aggressive negotiations coming at you all live
from Al Donnie and John. John, can you stop playing
with the livestock. We've got a show to do. I
am just one of your hosts here Matthew rushing and
with me every single week is none other than Jedi
Master super Shepherd John Mills.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
You know, I'm just mad because I misheard you. I
thought you said al dente and I was gonna have
a great meal, but instead here I am in the
middle of nowhere. Eaton was his beef jerky? Come on, man,
I feel betrayed. This is right, not right at all.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
You know, I will say though, Al Donnie mead is delicious,
so just take some more of that.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
John, Well, you know it's it's the mossy Highlands That's
what really gives it its flavor vicious. Yes, oh man.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Well, we are going to be continuing with our rewatch
of and Or season one as we prepare for season two.
But before we do that, give us a star rating.
Review over on Apple Podcasts, or give us a star
rating on Spotify. All of those things really help the show. Plus,
if you really also like what we do, you know,
(01:35):
share the show with your friends, you know, send it
to them on social media, send it to them in
an email, you know, text them episodes that you're like,
you have to listen to these weirdos doing this show.
I mean, yes, do it so, John al Donnie. The
episode Al Donnie picks up right where we left off,
(01:58):
basically with Luthen taking Cassian to this planet and recruiting
him for this mission. In fact, you know, we find
out that his interest in Cassian really had nothing to
do with this StarPath log. It really had to do
(02:18):
with him, and it's because of his his history. And
I think that's one of the things that it was
really interesting to me in watching this because you know,
we know this takes place about five years before the
Battle of Yavin, and so we get this sense that
(02:41):
in this this this episode really I think does well
is that it gives us the sense is that the
rebellion is really starting to pick up steam behind the
scenes to try and create a more organized resistance to
the Empire.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah, I think that the the character of Luthen first
and foremost, I think scars Guard is again he's such
a fantastic actor. He brings something to everything that he's in.
I will sing his praises to the end of time.
(03:17):
But what the show does really well here with this episode,
especially in the beginning, is outlining that behind the scenes
thing that you're talking about. He's the mystery figure who
knows everything about Indor already he knows him. There's no
point in lying to him because he keeps showing Cassian
(03:39):
that there is a network simply by the fact that
he knows so much about it. There's no way he's
one person doing all of this, that he's a piece
of the puzzle. And also seeing the ship that he's
in gives you a real sense that, oh and he's
got resources too. So yes, that's a whole thing. And
(04:00):
what I found interesting about it, honestly, and this a
leap to the rest of the episode. Here is you
have mon Mathma, who's a senator and obviously wealthy, and
you have Luthan who runs his shop as a front
but obviously you know there's enough cash who knows what
his specific story is. By this point. You know, we'll
(04:23):
find out more about him as the show goes on.
I'm just staying here containing the episode. But it really
is interesting because right now I'm reading a book about
the French Revolution and it's a really exhaustive book. I
highly recommend it, but it's taking me forever to finish
it because it is dense. But all that to say,
(04:44):
what's interesting is it's very easy for a show like
this or any work that deals with a revolutionary movement
to portray everybody as you know, humble dirt farmers or
something like that. I find it very interesting that this episode,
once we have left Paris, we now see that this
(05:08):
is at every social strata, that there are people in
every echelon of society. And the reason I mentioned the
book about the French Revolution is it calls that out.
Is it's like, oh, there were people in the aristocracy
who were in the early days of the revolution, they
were moving things forward that without them things wouldn't have
happened in certain ways. And so I find it very
(05:30):
interesting and very very good writing on the part of
this show to illustrate all of the different social strata
that need to come together in order for a thing
to happen. There's no and Or saying you know, you
have too much money, or Luthan saying you're too poor
or anything like that. It's everybody recognizing everybody has to
(05:51):
work together to get something done. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
I like the way you said that because one of
the things that I was interested in your thoughts about
the episode. You know, the first the first three episodes
are are clearly about setting up the character of and
Or right his past, his present so that we can
chart his future. And now this episode begins something that
(06:19):
will continue throughout the rest of the season. Is this
inner play then between the different storylines and the different
characters that we're going to follow. So characters like Luthan,
characters like and Or correspond Mathma. We will also again,
you know, see characters like Bicks again and then giving
(06:44):
us the behind the scenes of you know, Dedra at
the Imperial Security Bureau. And so all of these stories
really kind of playing together then. And so I wanted
to ask you, because you know, we really branch out
now in this episode and start interweaving all these stories,
(07:06):
do you feel like that they do that? Well? Then
here in this episode to kind of google clue you
in to all these other characters, but that it is
actually like well paced, because I know that's obviously something
you kind of had a little bit of a frustration
with as we talked about in our first episode.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yes, I think that the pacing issues essentially go away
with this show. Everything clicked, Everything was in the right
amount of time for everything. Maybe that, you know, if
I want to quibble, maybe there's stuff here or there
that I think could have been tightened, But I was
invested and engaged in each scene that was happening, and
(07:51):
everything breathed right, and everything more importantly juxtaposed properly. It
felt like there were multiple plot lines going and they
were given equal weight. I will actually reference Lucas and say,
for instance, if you look at something like American Graffiti,
there are all of these competing storylines, but you never
(08:13):
feel cheated, and you never feel like you stay with
one too long. This episode has that type of rhythm
to it. I never feel like I'm somewhere for too long,
and I never feel like I'm cheated on any storyline.
In fact, though it's not to its detriment at all,
(08:35):
But man, I really loved the ISB stuff. I know
everybody when the prequels came out, that's older like me
was all like, oh, too much bureaucricy in the Senate
and stuff like that. I live for that stuff. I
love that stuff. And seeing the head of the ISB,
or at least that section of it or whatever, seeing
(08:57):
this is this brass tacks, no nonsense due and seeing
the internal politics and the way everything works out. I
suddenly saw something where I'm like, oh, I see a
functional organization here, and that was I think that's the
thing that really took off about the show for me
was I was like, I believe that this empire can
exist right now, Like I believe in this mechanism.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Yeah, I completely agree with you. It's funny you went
right to that because it was one of the things
I was I was going to key in on was
the ISB. And I like the way that you put
that in that you can understand how this is a
functional bureaucracy. But I think one of the ways that
(09:40):
I love this is that, you know, I don't think
Tony Gilroy has watched you know, all of the animated
stuff and all the things we've gotten about, you know,
then the behind the scenes of the ISB and something
like rebels or what we got in Bad Batch and
(10:01):
all that kind of stuff, right, And yet this really
seems to fit within that mold of watching all of
these guys and women who are sitting around this table, right,
and they are all vying for power in this organization.
And so the guy at the head of this organization, though,
(10:22):
doesn't really care about all of their political games. He's
just trying to get the job done, right. And that's
what's kind of fascinating is to see the way in
which and this is something I'll say something fairly interesting
in this. He feels a lot like the Throng type
(10:43):
of guy, not the same type of level of intelligence, right,
but it's the no nonsense. We're here to get the
job done. I'm not here to play politics. I'm here
to make sure that we're rooting out the insurgents, that
we're keeping this empire safe, that we're doing the job
we were put here to do. I'm not here to
(11:04):
play your stupid games, you know, because you know you
play stupid games, you win stupid prizes, and that's not
what I'm here for. And so I really appreciate that
about this, and the most interesting part of this too,
is that as we're introduced into Deirdre as a character,
one of the fascinating parts about this is that you
(11:26):
get the sense that this is also kind of her
thought process because the reason that she's she's focused on
her career, but the same time, she's actually focused on
trying to put pieces together that she sees forming in
a puzzle in her mind. And she kind of seems
(11:47):
to be the only one really doing that at this moment,
with this idea of this thing being stolen from this section,
and she's starting to do that, and I find that
really interesting because it makes her a very compelling character
because now she's on a hunt, right and she's on
a hunt to which as a character, she might not
(12:11):
be supported in doing this, but it's for the Empire's
point of view, this is actually the right thing to do.
And so that's what I find really interesting. And like
you said too, this like it's not a long episode,
and yet it's so tightly written with these different storylines
(12:32):
that I feel like I kind of immediately know her
as a character, even though we don't spend tons of
time with her as a character.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
The performance is fantastic. This actress, forgive me I forget
her name right now. I don't always retain or actress
names particularly well. At first, I think she's phenomenal, she's
terrific at giving expressions that you can key off of
and stuff like that. But just to pile on even
more about the ISP stuff, and I think it just
(13:00):
sort of proves how fascinating the ICB stuff is. Is
that leader that we've both talked about that we're fixated on.
He illustrates another big problem, whether it's a company, whether
it's a bureaucracy, whether whatever organization it is, is that
guy you already know from this one episode. If that
(13:22):
guy is gone, pandemonium, these people will just turn it
into Game of Thrones and be at each other's throats
and the only thing keeping them under control is him. Yeah,
And that's the problem with the empire itself too, is
once the strong leader is gone, it'll all fall apart.
And so you see the importance of legacy, which is
(13:45):
why I think it's great that he calls out Dedre
when he doesn't give her her way, and he says,
settle down. You were brought here because I see you
as the type of person I need to be here
right now. And shows that he's even got the thought
toward I'm not going to live forever. I need somebody
that's going to come behind me, and whether it's you
(14:06):
or somebody else, I need to know that you all
will get it done when I'm gone. But that strong
personality he trips and falls down the stairs, ISP's going
to fall apart. Yeah, at least partially. The one thing
that I go back and forth on I want to
throw this to you is with Dedre. I'm in a
(14:29):
glad not glad sense of somebody who went through the
nineties in that franchise. Lore would almost dictate, well, you
brought back throw on, why wouldn't you just make her
isan Isard or Iard right ice heart from the ISB
in the nineties books. But I'm not mad about it,
(14:51):
you know, like it doesn't irritate me. I'm like, ah,
that would have been a neat one. At least give
her two different colored eyes or something like that as
a nod. Do you think that that? Do you wish
they'd done that? Is there any part of you that's
like I wish it had been I Sard?
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Yeah, I mean it could have been a really interesting
thing to do and give you the opportunity to explore
that character in a new way, and you know, like
you know, Felony and George did with anything from the
old EU, they just they took it and then they
(15:26):
made it their own and where they could pay homage
to what came before they did, but they were never
afraid to just do their own thing. So I think
that would have been cool in that sense. I would
have no issues with them doing that. I do think
one of the interesting parts of having her be her
(15:47):
own character in some ways is that I don't know
exactly what's going to happen to her. I mean, you know,
we're not going to talk about it when we get
to till we get there, but like, her character just
has a really interesting arc, you know, with what happens
to her. So and here again, I think she's utterly
fascinating in a way. The portrayal is she's just on
(16:12):
top of it, and she's an incredibly interesting character, you know,
in the same way that I think, like you said,
Scarsgard just owns Luthen And I mean the performance then
that he gives in this that I find incredibly fascinating
is just there's that wonderful moment right where he is
(16:34):
reorienting himself for the world of Corouscant where he is
literally putting on the costume like Batman to go into
Gotham and be a different person because he can't be
who he truly is. He has to be somebody completely different.
And I mean maybe the actual example is Bruce Wayne
(16:57):
being the playboy and instead of you know, who he
truly is inside and so and that performance just as
he i mean, he washes his face and he puts
on the wig, and he flexes his fingers as he's
putting on, and then that moment where he just kind
(17:17):
of like all of a sudden, that character comes out
and he starts to like kind of like play laughing
in the mirror, and it's like, oh, totally different, dude.
And the and what is beautiful about that is that
even though we don't actually see that same scene play
out from mon Mathma, what we see is the moment
(17:39):
when she gets home and you know, she lays down
that piece of jewelry and there's that like weight that
has come off of her because she has just had
that mask on all day and now she's in some
ways kind of slowly taking it off until she realizes, Oh,
I'm screwed because We've got a dinner party tonight and
(17:59):
I'm going to be surround about these people all night too.
And like they're such a great mirroring for these different characters,
so that the thematic elements that we're getting with one
character are actually helping build into another character that they're
not sharing screen time with. That's really really good writing.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
It is, it's very good writing. I think that this
is an episode that is firing on all cylinders. The
one thing that it doesn't fill me up with joy,
however you want to put it, is coming back to
it now. Even the time that we spend with and
(18:46):
forgive me, I forget the character's name, but he's the
zealous security guy that he goes back home to Mom.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
The unfortunate thing is is I understand, Yeah, I understand
from a utilitarian sense why we have to spend that
amount of time with them and get there. And I
don't hate it. It's actually some nice world building for Coroussant,
showing me a different side of the city that I
haven't seen before, giving that brutalist architecture. Okay, this is
(19:18):
different than the entertainment district, or the you know, all
these other districts I've seen very cool, but when you
have ISB showing what a tightly run, clear bureaucratic organization
looks like, and then the disorganized, hidden information federated nature
(19:42):
of the rebellion and how dysfunctional it is, and seeing
that the leader there in that situation of that camp,
she doesn't have that same strength of personality that the
head of the ISB does, and that's what leads to problems.
Within the the context of the episode, his stuff just
(20:04):
feels like, yeah, okay, like it feels necessary but not fulfilling,
I guess, is the way that I would put.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Yeah, no, I agree with you in that sense, because
Cyril's story is one that is something that feels like
a long game, not just for this season, but for
the two seasons. And so if there's any detriment to
(20:32):
this season at all, I find it to kind of
be his storyline. So, even though I love this show,
I'm right there with you. I think that is just
something that I'm never as interested in as the other storylines.
And so what I'm hoping then is that once we
get the season two and we see it play out there,
(20:55):
it'll all kind of makes sense in the end, which
you know, every I feel like every TV show kind
of has that one character where it's like, oh, I
didn't truly get that character until the end of the show,
and so that might be him. But if it's not,
then I'm also going to be left with like, oh,
we spend so much time with this character and I didn't.
(21:16):
I really need to.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Give me an example. I have an example what you're
talking about in my head already, where at the end
of this character's journey, I was like, Okay, I'm glad
he was there, but like when they started out, I
was like, Wow, why am I spending any time with
this character? I don't like him? Who would you go
to as an example of that in another show, another series.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Yeah, that's a really good question, you know. I think
I think one of the characters that I'm going to
jump to is I'm actually going to jump to Quirk
in d S Phase nine, where really his full arc
really makes much more sense because first and these basis
(22:02):
my favorite Star Trek series of old time. I love it,
I adore it. I think it's it's phenomenal, right, But
I think, you know, one of the things I could
say about Quirk is that his arc and totality is
what makes him really special, being able to go back
and rewatch episodes and kind of know where he's going
(22:22):
to go in the end. That I really love because
it all then really works and it builds. But you know,
just a far ANGI in general, sometimes those characters in
those episodes can feel like, Okay, why am I spending
time on this? And the beauty is is that they
make those matter right, And so that's the thing that
(22:45):
I love is that they don't. They don't well except
for Profit and Lace, which should never have it existed
as an episode, you know. Otherwise, without Quirk you don't
get Rom, and without Rom, you don't get Gnawg and Oh.
Storylines just becomes so incredibly important to the series as
(23:06):
a whole. That for me, that's one of those characters
where it's like, yeah, the hole is in some ways
greater than the sum of its parts.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
I love the example that you use Quark is I
wouldn't have seen it coming, but I got you. I see,
I understand what you're saying. For me, I was going
smaller scale character and the Max's brother in Stranger Things, Yes,
I didn't. I was like, well, why is this even
in the show. And then we got to his season,
(23:37):
I was like oh, And then I was like oh okay.
And then at the end, at the very end of
that character, I was like, oh, yeah this worked out. Okay, Yeah, great.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
A show that's finally coming back after all the kids
are like thirty two and have beer guts.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
I'm going to I'm going to use the joke I
love to use that the plot of season five five
of Stranger Things is going to be that Vecna got
them all trapped in subprime mortgages and the whole season's
going to be them figuring their way out.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Oh man, So I gotta ask you about this too,
because you know, obviously this episode in this three part arc,
really introduce us to this whole heist that we're going
to attempt here on Aldanni. And the reason that we're
doing this is because you you know that Luthan and
(24:29):
man Mathma clearly want to be able to fund the
rebellion to do more, but they need the money to
do it, and so this is one of those first
real big steps in Cattle. You know, this is one
(24:50):
of those first big catalyst moments for this, this this
nascent rebellion really to kind of find a way to
come together. And so I wanted to ask you just
to about that process because we meet all these you know,
new characters there and we don't get to spend a
ton of time with them. But I just wanted to
(25:12):
ask you about that setup.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
I think that, yeah, you're creating a source of untraceable funds.
If it comes from Luthan's account in too large an amount,
you can find him out. Man. Mathma can't touch her
money and use it for this we already meet in
this episode. She's got a minder, she's got somebody watching
her at all times, make sure she stays in line
(25:39):
sort of thing. I love the idea of setting up
the Heistuh you know where my mind went this time
with it, though, immediately was how would Saw Guerrera do this?
Because they mentioned Saw early on when the guy falls
asleep at his post, he says he if you fell
asleep in Saws team, your head would be on a pike.
(26:02):
Just for kicks. Don't want to happen again. Yeah, And
I'm like, I look at this heist and I'm like,
after what we got of Saw in Clone Wars, but
then more importantly what we got him in bad Batch? Right,
I'm like the immediately my brain goes to, ooh, how
ruthless are these rebels going to be? Like I've got
something in my brain where I'm like, ooh, how is
(26:25):
this going to play out?
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Specifically, I think that the question that I kind of
come down to, and that is, does Saw have the
tactical ability to pull off anything like this at all?
Or even to think like this, you know, because Saw
is such a blunt instrument, and this is a precision strike.
(26:49):
Not only is a precision but I mean just even
the fact that we learn this is to take place
during an event that only takes place every three years,
and we've got the right people on the inside of
the job and the outside of the job to make
this happen, and and or is there because it gives
them a much better chance of success. And so that's
(27:15):
the thing.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
I guess.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
The question I would come to is like can it
would this even be a thing in Saul's mind in
the very Oh.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
No, I think Saul wouldn't want to take the money
because it was blood money, and I think that his
his goal, and I could I could see I guess
I throw it up. Yeah, to give the al Dhani
people their riverback. He would view that as the victory here.
I'll blow up the dam and give them their river
back and screw the money. Who cares? And that's I mean,
(27:43):
I think that that's that's interesting in and of itself
because that's where this episode sort of pays off for
a long time fan, because you've seen how Saul would do,
would go about something like this, so you already have
that tension of like seeing these different aspects of the
rebellion and knowing that we're still not at the point
(28:05):
in Rebels where Saw has his big speech with everybody,
yeah at Yavin and everything, you know, like and I'll
give him, you know what, I'll double back because well
I talked about they didn't take the opportunity to tie.
I stared in and said, have Dedra. It's a push.
I'm not complaining about it, guys. I did like the
(28:26):
fact that when Luthan is talking to and Or you
find out and Or was it Mimben and they that's
just a little bit of color given to it. But
immediately I can cue in and go, aha, Mimben is
where Han Solo was too, and it's like that's that's
the type of little tie in where I'm like, oh,
I know what the Mimben conflict was, but if I
(28:47):
haven't seen Solo a Star Wars story, I just need
to know it's a war, that's it. And it's like
that's a really good tie in sort of thing. And
that's what Maybe that's the advantage of Gilroy and the
crew on this show can have is that they'll make reference,
but since they're not diehards, they'll make reference in the
(29:08):
right way quote unquote, where it won't be two shots
focused on the to jerk table in the Millennium Falcons hold.
It'll be one shot instead of two. It'll be a
fleeting reference instead of lingering on the past as it were.
(29:32):
So maybe that's what's working for the show's advantage.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah, you know, I think that's something that's really interesting.
You get Luthen also handing him this very esoteric crystal
that is a reference to the Knightsville Republic game, which
is an incredibly cool deep cut, which I love. Right,
(29:58):
And so, like you said, it's like they're all these
little moments that really pay off fans, but not in
a way that hurts anybody else, you know, from enjoying
the episode, and I think that's fantastic. I think maybe
the one last question that I wanted to ask you about,
(30:19):
and we talked a little bit about my Matha, but
I think kind of circling back to her and you know,
meeting her husband, who just seems like an absolute tool,
you know, was fascinating because he's just like, oh, why
is everybody so boring? And like he's just this wealthy
(30:41):
jerk store who has nothing better to do than to
throw dinner parties because he's his life is so boring
and he doesn't care about anything. And it was like
I remember watching the show for the first time. We
never knew that my Mathma was married. But to have
her be married and be in this marriage to somebody
(31:04):
who understands absolutely nothing of who she is and who
she's become, and actually also be kind of diametrically deposed
to who she's become because he could care less is
utterly fascinating to me.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
It definitely shows the strain that can happen in a
marriage when somebody follows a different path and like, you know,
and it's that thing where it's like you know, it
happens with any marriage. You know, people grow and develop
at different rates. And I think the question, the fascinating
thing with this episode is sitting there, you get enough
(31:47):
to say to yourself, but why is she with him?
And that's a question you want answered. This is the
proper set. It's not a mystery box. It's not a
I'm having a dinner party. And at that point I'll
open up the box that's sitting here on the table
that will tell you.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
No.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
It's I see their interaction and I say, well, why
are they staying together? Now? I want to know more?
And it's because I see that interaction and it's it's
played so well. And again other people have said this,
but what a testament to Lucas and his casting director
for episode three to know how how vital this actress
(32:30):
was going to be Asthma and Mathma, Like God bless
them for knowing how well she could play this role,
even though she was cast for the equivalent of one
scene in episode three. I mean they paid attention.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Man, Yeah, I mean she's she's phenomenal. And I think,
like you said, you know, the beauty of this is
her portrayal and the questions that arrive around her are
just so fascinating, and she just does such a great
(33:05):
job of bringing life to a character that you know,
we saw for seconds in Return of the Jedi and
and we saw for seconds in Revenge of the Sith,
and you know, thankfully we got an opportunity to spend
some more time with her in Rebels. But yeah, you're
you're absolutely right. I mean, it's it's phenomenal casting the
(33:26):
fact that we've actually gotten to spend more time with her,
And it's great that this show exists in that sense,
just to be able to give us more of her
in that story, because we do know that she's so
pivotal to the rebellion and we even saw it, you know,
and Rogue one. So I think it's great obviously, you know,
(33:49):
first three episodes for you, like you liked a lot,
but you also had some issues with it. Sounds like
this is the this is the episode that really righted
the ship for you. And if I mean, if you
had a rating for this episode, what do you think
you'd give it?
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Oh gosh, I mean this is a solid four. Okay,
why not a five? Well, you know the serial stuff,
you know, Yeah, I get it. It's a long play
and there there's resolution, but not complete resolution. It's not
a fault of the show, right, Like it's a four
star piece of what could potentially be a five star,
(34:34):
Like it's it's solid four. Yeah, like it will never
go lower than four. It could only go up with
another rewatch or something like that. So that's where I
end with it. Where where did you end with it? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (34:45):
I think I I'm close to where you are, and
since I think I'd get four half out of five.
And part of that is just because at this point,
you know, in the storyline, I don't quite know where
we're going with the serial story, and so I'm kind
of like, why are we still following this dude at
this point and getting to his mother's house where he
gets slapped and he just kind of seems like a
(35:06):
little pity party boy. So yes, in that that that's
that's where it's like, I but you know, everything else
in some ways, it's like everything else in this episode
brings it so close to a five because the story
is so on point, and the and the acting for
(35:28):
all the characters, even like I think of all the
crew that we meet and Aldannie, they all feel interesting
and fascinating in that sense too, And so it's like
everything is really firing on all cylinders by this point,
and it just feels like we're just gonna you know,
we're gonna hit the pod race button and we're just
(35:51):
gonna fly from now on. So I'll be really excited
then to continue the story. And I kind of love
where kind of taking this at this slower pace because
it really gets this opportunity to kind of dig into
all the nitty gritty details. But John, if you know
people wanted to catch up with you, see what else
you've got going on, maybe talk some more and or
and just all the interesting Star Wars news and things
(36:14):
that are happening over on the internet, where would they
find you?
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Oh well, gosh, if you want my opinion on anything,
you can reach me at Matt Rushing zero two. Oh no,
I'm sorry, I'm kidding at Kessele Junkie and you can
find me here on the network, co hosting a show
called house Lights where we look at the work of
directors and we have lots of fun with that looking
at directors everybody from Fincher to Tarantino too. Someday, someday
(36:39):
they will answer my dreams and we will actually look
at the works of Catherine Bigelow, one of my favorite
underb appreciated directors. Yeah, and Matt, I know. I also
appear sometimes over on The six or two Club, which
is one of the many ways people can reach you online.
So where can people reach out to you?
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Absolutely check me out on the six or two Club
over on the TFM network with a lot of other
Star Trek Talk as well with a lot of other shows.
So if you like either of those things where you're
talking about fantoms that you love or the other Star franchise,
please do check that out.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
We love that.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Over on social media, I'm under the name Matt Rushing
zero two on Networks, So if you search that name
and I'm there, that's the name I'll be under. You
can also find me here on the network doing outpost.
Dreya Kaufman and I finished that show where we talked
about every single chapter the Harry Potter series, one chapter
at a time. But you know, John, I hear that
(37:39):
the chimes the temple calling. I think they're asking us
to bring back some sl Donnie Meade because Yoda is
actually a big fan. So I think it's time to
close these negotiations.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
He can drink a surprising amount for his body weight
and master rushing negotiations start.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
Plotters join the Revolution, join the Nerd Party.
Welcome to the ned Palty.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hi.
Speaker 3 (00:06):
This is Nick and Astasu, story editor on Star Wars,
The Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch, and you
are listening to aggressive negotiations.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Welcome back to aggressive negotiations coming at you all live
from Al Donnie and John. John, can you stop playing
with the livestock. We've got a show to do. I
am just one of your hosts here Matthew rushing and
with me every single week is none other than Jedi
Master super Shepherd John Mills.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
You know, I'm just mad because I misheard you. I
thought you said al dente and I was gonna have
a great meal, but instead here I am in the
middle of nowhere. Eaton was his beef jerky? Come on, man,
I feel betrayed. This is right, not right at all.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
You know, I will say though, Al Donnie mead is delicious,
so just take some more of that.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
John, Well, you know it's it's the mossy Highlands That's
what really gives it its flavor vicious. Yes, oh man.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Well, we are going to be continuing with our rewatch
of and Or season one as we prepare for season two.
But before we do that, give us a star rating.
Review over on Apple Podcasts, or give us a star
rating on Spotify. All of those things really help the show. Plus,
if you really also like what we do, you know,
(01:35):
share the show with your friends, you know, send it
to them on social media, send it to them in
an email, you know, text them episodes that you're like,
you have to listen to these weirdos doing this show.
I mean, yes, do it so, John al Donnie. The
episode Al Donnie picks up right where we left off,
(01:58):
basically with Luthen taking Cassian to this planet and recruiting
him for this mission. In fact, you know, we find
out that his interest in Cassian really had nothing to
do with this StarPath log. It really had to do
(02:18):
with him, and it's because of his his history. And
I think that's one of the things that it was
really interesting to me in watching this because you know,
we know this takes place about five years before the
Battle of Yavin, and so we get this sense that
(02:41):
in this this this episode really I think does well
is that it gives us the sense is that the
rebellion is really starting to pick up steam behind the
scenes to try and create a more organized resistance to
the Empire.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah, I think that the the character of Luthen first
and foremost, I think scars Guard is again he's such
a fantastic actor. He brings something to everything that he's in.
I will sing his praises to the end of time.
(03:17):
But what the show does really well here with this episode,
especially in the beginning, is outlining that behind the scenes
thing that you're talking about. He's the mystery figure who
knows everything about Indor already he knows him. There's no
point in lying to him because he keeps showing Cassian
(03:39):
that there is a network simply by the fact that
he knows so much about it. There's no way he's
one person doing all of this, that he's a piece
of the puzzle. And also seeing the ship that he's
in gives you a real sense that, oh and he's
got resources too. So yes, that's a whole thing. And
(04:00):
what I found interesting about it, honestly, and this a
leap to the rest of the episode. Here is you
have mon Mathma, who's a senator and obviously wealthy, and
you have Luthan who runs his shop as a front
but obviously you know there's enough cash who knows what
his specific story is. By this point. You know, we'll
(04:23):
find out more about him as the show goes on.
I'm just staying here containing the episode. But it really
is interesting because right now I'm reading a book about
the French Revolution and it's a really exhaustive book. I
highly recommend it, but it's taking me forever to finish
it because it is dense. But all that to say,
(04:44):
what's interesting is it's very easy for a show like
this or any work that deals with a revolutionary movement
to portray everybody as you know, humble dirt farmers or
something like that. I find it very interesting that this episode,
once we have left Paris, we now see that this
(05:08):
is at every social strata, that there are people in
every echelon of society. And the reason I mentioned the
book about the French Revolution is it calls that out.
Is it's like, oh, there were people in the aristocracy
who were in the early days of the revolution, they
were moving things forward that without them things wouldn't have
happened in certain ways. And so I find it very
(05:30):
interesting and very very good writing on the part of
this show to illustrate all of the different social strata
that need to come together in order for a thing
to happen. There's no and Or saying you know, you
have too much money, or Luthan saying you're too poor
or anything like that. It's everybody recognizing everybody has to
(05:51):
work together to get something done. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
I like the way you said that because one of
the things that I was interested in your thoughts about
the episode. You know, the first the first three episodes
are are clearly about setting up the character of and
Or right his past, his present so that we can
chart his future. And now this episode begins something that
(06:19):
will continue throughout the rest of the season. Is this
inner play then between the different storylines and the different
characters that we're going to follow. So characters like Luthan,
characters like and Or correspond Mathma. We will also again,
you know, see characters like Bicks again and then giving
(06:44):
us the behind the scenes of you know, Dedra at
the Imperial Security Bureau. And so all of these stories
really kind of playing together then. And so I wanted
to ask you, because you know, we really branch out
now in this episode and start interweaving all these stories,
(07:06):
do you feel like that they do that? Well? Then
here in this episode to kind of google clue you
in to all these other characters, but that it is
actually like well paced, because I know that's obviously something
you kind of had a little bit of a frustration
with as we talked about in our first episode.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yes, I think that the pacing issues essentially go away
with this show. Everything clicked, Everything was in the right
amount of time for everything. Maybe that, you know, if
I want to quibble, maybe there's stuff here or there
that I think could have been tightened, But I was
invested and engaged in each scene that was happening, and
(07:51):
everything breathed right, and everything more importantly juxtaposed properly. It
felt like there were multiple plot lines going and they
were given equal weight. I will actually reference Lucas and say,
for instance, if you look at something like American Graffiti,
there are all of these competing storylines, but you never
(08:13):
feel cheated, and you never feel like you stay with
one too long. This episode has that type of rhythm
to it. I never feel like I'm somewhere for too long,
and I never feel like I'm cheated on any storyline.
In fact, though it's not to its detriment at all,
(08:35):
But man, I really loved the ISB stuff. I know
everybody when the prequels came out, that's older like me
was all like, oh, too much bureaucricy in the Senate
and stuff like that. I live for that stuff. I
love that stuff. And seeing the head of the ISB,
or at least that section of it or whatever, seeing
(08:57):
this is this brass tacks, no nonsense due and seeing
the internal politics and the way everything works out. I
suddenly saw something where I'm like, oh, I see a
functional organization here, and that was I think that's the
thing that really took off about the show for me
was I was like, I believe that this empire can
exist right now, Like I believe in this mechanism.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Yeah, I completely agree with you. It's funny you went
right to that because it was one of the things
I was I was going to key in on was
the ISB. And I like the way that you put
that in that you can understand how this is a
functional bureaucracy. But I think one of the ways that
(09:40):
I love this is that, you know, I don't think
Tony Gilroy has watched you know, all of the animated
stuff and all the things we've gotten about, you know,
then the behind the scenes of the ISB and something
like rebels or what we got in Bad Batch and
(10:01):
all that kind of stuff, right, And yet this really
seems to fit within that mold of watching all of
these guys and women who are sitting around this table, right,
and they are all vying for power in this organization.
And so the guy at the head of this organization, though,
(10:22):
doesn't really care about all of their political games. He's
just trying to get the job done, right. And that's
what's kind of fascinating is to see the way in
which and this is something I'll say something fairly interesting
in this. He feels a lot like the Throng type
(10:43):
of guy, not the same type of level of intelligence, right,
but it's the no nonsense. We're here to get the
job done. I'm not here to play politics. I'm here
to make sure that we're rooting out the insurgents, that
we're keeping this empire safe, that we're doing the job
we were put here to do. I'm not here to
(11:04):
play your stupid games, you know, because you know you
play stupid games, you win stupid prizes, and that's not
what I'm here for. And so I really appreciate that
about this, and the most interesting part of this too,
is that as we're introduced into Deirdre as a character,
one of the fascinating parts about this is that you
(11:26):
get the sense that this is also kind of her
thought process because the reason that she's she's focused on
her career, but the same time, she's actually focused on
trying to put pieces together that she sees forming in
a puzzle in her mind. And she kind of seems
(11:47):
to be the only one really doing that at this moment,
with this idea of this thing being stolen from this section,
and she's starting to do that, and I find that
really interesting because it makes her a very compelling character
because now she's on a hunt, right and she's on
a hunt to which as a character, she might not
(12:11):
be supported in doing this, but it's for the Empire's
point of view, this is actually the right thing to do.
And so that's what I find really interesting. And like
you said too, this like it's not a long episode,
and yet it's so tightly written with these different storylines
(12:32):
that I feel like I kind of immediately know her
as a character, even though we don't spend tons of
time with her as a character.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
The performance is fantastic. This actress, forgive me I forget
her name right now. I don't always retain or actress
names particularly well. At first, I think she's phenomenal, she's
terrific at giving expressions that you can key off of
and stuff like that. But just to pile on even
more about the ISP stuff, and I think it just
(13:00):
sort of proves how fascinating the ICB stuff is. Is
that leader that we've both talked about that we're fixated on.
He illustrates another big problem, whether it's a company, whether
it's a bureaucracy, whether whatever organization it is, is that
guy you already know from this one episode. If that
(13:22):
guy is gone, pandemonium, these people will just turn it
into Game of Thrones and be at each other's throats
and the only thing keeping them under control is him. Yeah,
And that's the problem with the empire itself too, is
once the strong leader is gone, it'll all fall apart.
And so you see the importance of legacy, which is
(13:45):
why I think it's great that he calls out Dedre
when he doesn't give her her way, and he says,
settle down. You were brought here because I see you
as the type of person I need to be here
right now. And shows that he's even got the thought
toward I'm not going to live forever. I need somebody
that's going to come behind me, and whether it's you
(14:06):
or somebody else, I need to know that you all
will get it done when I'm gone. But that strong
personality he trips and falls down the stairs, ISP's going
to fall apart. Yeah, at least partially. The one thing
that I go back and forth on I want to
throw this to you is with Dedre. I'm in a
(14:29):
glad not glad sense of somebody who went through the
nineties in that franchise. Lore would almost dictate, well, you
brought back throw on, why wouldn't you just make her
isan Isard or Iard right ice heart from the ISB
in the nineties books. But I'm not mad about it,
(14:51):
you know, like it doesn't irritate me. I'm like, ah,
that would have been a neat one. At least give
her two different colored eyes or something like that as
a nod. Do you think that that? Do you wish
they'd done that? Is there any part of you that's
like I wish it had been I Sard?
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Yeah, I mean it could have been a really interesting
thing to do and give you the opportunity to explore
that character in a new way, and you know, like
you know, Felony and George did with anything from the
old EU, they just they took it and then they
(15:26):
made it their own and where they could pay homage
to what came before they did, but they were never
afraid to just do their own thing. So I think
that would have been cool in that sense. I would
have no issues with them doing that. I do think
one of the interesting parts of having her be her
(15:47):
own character in some ways is that I don't know
exactly what's going to happen to her. I mean, you know,
we're not going to talk about it when we get
to till we get there, but like, her character just
has a really interesting arc, you know, with what happens
to her. So and here again, I think she's utterly
fascinating in a way. The portrayal is she's just on
(16:12):
top of it, and she's an incredibly interesting character, you know,
in the same way that I think, like you said,
Scarsgard just owns Luthen And I mean the performance then
that he gives in this that I find incredibly fascinating
is just there's that wonderful moment right where he is
(16:34):
reorienting himself for the world of Corouscant where he is
literally putting on the costume like Batman to go into
Gotham and be a different person because he can't be
who he truly is. He has to be somebody completely different.
And I mean maybe the actual example is Bruce Wayne
(16:57):
being the playboy and instead of you know, who he
truly is inside and so and that performance just as
he i mean, he washes his face and he puts
on the wig, and he flexes his fingers as he's
putting on, and then that moment where he just kind
(17:17):
of like all of a sudden, that character comes out
and he starts to like kind of like play laughing
in the mirror, and it's like, oh, totally different, dude.
And the and what is beautiful about that is that
even though we don't actually see that same scene play
out from mon Mathma, what we see is the moment
(17:39):
when she gets home and you know, she lays down
that piece of jewelry and there's that like weight that
has come off of her because she has just had
that mask on all day and now she's in some
ways kind of slowly taking it off until she realizes, Oh,
I'm screwed because We've got a dinner party tonight and
(17:59):
I'm going to be surround about these people all night too.
And like they're such a great mirroring for these different characters,
so that the thematic elements that we're getting with one
character are actually helping build into another character that they're
not sharing screen time with. That's really really good writing.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
It is, it's very good writing. I think that this
is an episode that is firing on all cylinders. The
one thing that it doesn't fill me up with joy,
however you want to put it, is coming back to
it now. Even the time that we spend with and
(18:46):
forgive me, I forget the character's name, but he's the
zealous security guy that he goes back home to Mom.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
The unfortunate thing is is I understand, Yeah, I understand
from a utilitarian sense why we have to spend that
amount of time with them and get there. And I
don't hate it. It's actually some nice world building for Coroussant,
showing me a different side of the city that I
haven't seen before, giving that brutalist architecture. Okay, this is
(19:18):
different than the entertainment district, or the you know, all
these other districts I've seen very cool, but when you
have ISB showing what a tightly run, clear bureaucratic organization
looks like, and then the disorganized, hidden information federated nature
(19:42):
of the rebellion and how dysfunctional it is, and seeing
that the leader there in that situation of that camp,
she doesn't have that same strength of personality that the
head of the ISB does, and that's what leads to problems.
Within the the context of the episode, his stuff just
(20:04):
feels like, yeah, okay, like it feels necessary but not fulfilling,
I guess, is the way that I would put.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Yeah, no, I agree with you in that sense, because
Cyril's story is one that is something that feels like
a long game, not just for this season, but for
the two seasons. And so if there's any detriment to
(20:32):
this season at all, I find it to kind of
be his storyline. So, even though I love this show,
I'm right there with you. I think that is just
something that I'm never as interested in as the other storylines.
And so what I'm hoping then is that once we
get the season two and we see it play out there,
(20:55):
it'll all kind of makes sense in the end, which
you know, every I feel like every TV show kind
of has that one character where it's like, oh, I
didn't truly get that character until the end of the show,
and so that might be him. But if it's not,
then I'm also going to be left with like, oh,
we spend so much time with this character and I didn't.
(21:16):
I really need to.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Give me an example. I have an example what you're
talking about in my head already, where at the end
of this character's journey, I was like, Okay, I'm glad
he was there, but like when they started out, I
was like, Wow, why am I spending any time with
this character? I don't like him? Who would you go
to as an example of that in another show, another series.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Yeah, that's a really good question, you know. I think
I think one of the characters that I'm going to
jump to is I'm actually going to jump to Quirk
in d S Phase nine, where really his full arc
really makes much more sense because first and these basis
(22:02):
my favorite Star Trek series of old time. I love it,
I adore it. I think it's it's phenomenal, right, But
I think, you know, one of the things I could
say about Quirk is that his arc and totality is
what makes him really special, being able to go back
and rewatch episodes and kind of know where he's going
(22:22):
to go in the end. That I really love because
it all then really works and it builds. But you know,
just a far ANGI in general, sometimes those characters in
those episodes can feel like, Okay, why am I spending
time on this? And the beauty is is that they
make those matter right, And so that's the thing that
(22:45):
I love is that they don't. They don't well except
for Profit and Lace, which should never have it existed
as an episode, you know. Otherwise, without Quirk you don't
get Rom, and without Rom, you don't get Gnawg and Oh.
Storylines just becomes so incredibly important to the series as
(23:06):
a whole. That for me, that's one of those characters
where it's like, yeah, the hole is in some ways
greater than the sum of its parts.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
I love the example that you use Quark is I
wouldn't have seen it coming, but I got you. I see,
I understand what you're saying. For me, I was going
smaller scale character and the Max's brother in Stranger Things, Yes,
I didn't. I was like, well, why is this even
in the show. And then we got to his season,
(23:37):
I was like oh, And then I was like oh okay.
And then at the end, at the very end of
that character, I was like, oh, yeah this worked out. Okay, Yeah, great.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
A show that's finally coming back after all the kids
are like thirty two and have beer guts.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
I'm going to I'm going to use the joke I
love to use that the plot of season five five
of Stranger Things is going to be that Vecna got
them all trapped in subprime mortgages and the whole season's
going to be them figuring their way out.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Oh man, So I gotta ask you about this too,
because you know, obviously this episode in this three part arc,
really introduce us to this whole heist that we're going
to attempt here on Aldanni. And the reason that we're
doing this is because you you know that Luthan and
(24:29):
man Mathma clearly want to be able to fund the
rebellion to do more, but they need the money to
do it, and so this is one of those first
real big steps in Cattle. You know, this is one
(24:50):
of those first big catalyst moments for this, this this
nascent rebellion really to kind of find a way to
come together. And so I wanted to ask you just
to about that process because we meet all these you know,
new characters there and we don't get to spend a
ton of time with them. But I just wanted to
(25:12):
ask you about that setup.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
I think that, yeah, you're creating a source of untraceable funds.
If it comes from Luthan's account in too large an amount,
you can find him out. Man. Mathma can't touch her
money and use it for this we already meet in
this episode. She's got a minder, she's got somebody watching
her at all times, make sure she stays in line
(25:39):
sort of thing. I love the idea of setting up
the Heistuh you know where my mind went this time
with it, though, immediately was how would Saw Guerrera do this?
Because they mentioned Saw early on when the guy falls
asleep at his post, he says he if you fell
asleep in Saws team, your head would be on a pike.
(26:02):
Just for kicks. Don't want to happen again. Yeah, And
I'm like, I look at this heist and I'm like,
after what we got of Saw in Clone Wars, but
then more importantly what we got him in bad Batch? Right,
I'm like the immediately my brain goes to, ooh, how
ruthless are these rebels going to be? Like I've got
something in my brain where I'm like, ooh, how is
(26:25):
this going to play out?
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Specifically, I think that the question that I kind of
come down to, and that is, does Saw have the
tactical ability to pull off anything like this at all?
Or even to think like this, you know, because Saw
is such a blunt instrument, and this is a precision strike.
(26:49):
Not only is a precision but I mean just even
the fact that we learn this is to take place
during an event that only takes place every three years,
and we've got the right people on the inside of
the job and the outside of the job to make
this happen, and and or is there because it gives
them a much better chance of success. And so that's
(27:15):
the thing.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
I guess.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
The question I would come to is like can it
would this even be a thing in Saul's mind in
the very Oh.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
No, I think Saul wouldn't want to take the money
because it was blood money, and I think that his
his goal, and I could I could see I guess
I throw it up. Yeah, to give the al Dhani
people their riverback. He would view that as the victory here.
I'll blow up the dam and give them their river
back and screw the money. Who cares? And that's I mean,
(27:43):
I think that that's that's interesting in and of itself
because that's where this episode sort of pays off for
a long time fan, because you've seen how Saul would do,
would go about something like this, so you already have
that tension of like seeing these different aspects of the
rebellion and knowing that we're still not at the point
(28:05):
in Rebels where Saw has his big speech with everybody,
yeah at Yavin and everything, you know, like and I'll
give him, you know what, I'll double back because well
I talked about they didn't take the opportunity to tie.
I stared in and said, have Dedra. It's a push.
I'm not complaining about it, guys. I did like the
(28:26):
fact that when Luthan is talking to and Or you
find out and Or was it Mimben and they that's
just a little bit of color given to it. But
immediately I can cue in and go, aha, Mimben is
where Han Solo was too, and it's like that's that's
the type of little tie in where I'm like, oh,
I know what the Mimben conflict was, but if I
(28:47):
haven't seen Solo a Star Wars story, I just need
to know it's a war, that's it. And it's like
that's a really good tie in sort of thing. And
that's what Maybe that's the advantage of Gilroy and the
crew on this show can have is that they'll make reference,
but since they're not diehards, they'll make reference in the
(29:08):
right way quote unquote, where it won't be two shots
focused on the to jerk table in the Millennium Falcons hold.
It'll be one shot instead of two. It'll be a
fleeting reference instead of lingering on the past as it were.
(29:32):
So maybe that's what's working for the show's advantage.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah, you know, I think that's something that's really interesting.
You get Luthen also handing him this very esoteric crystal
that is a reference to the Knightsville Republic game, which
is an incredibly cool deep cut, which I love. Right,
(29:58):
And so, like you said, it's like they're all these
little moments that really pay off fans, but not in
a way that hurts anybody else, you know, from enjoying
the episode, and I think that's fantastic. I think maybe
the one last question that I wanted to ask you about,
(30:19):
and we talked a little bit about my Matha, but
I think kind of circling back to her and you know,
meeting her husband, who just seems like an absolute tool,
you know, was fascinating because he's just like, oh, why
is everybody so boring? And like he's just this wealthy
(30:41):
jerk store who has nothing better to do than to
throw dinner parties because he's his life is so boring
and he doesn't care about anything. And it was like
I remember watching the show for the first time. We
never knew that my Mathma was married. But to have
her be married and be in this marriage to somebody
(31:04):
who understands absolutely nothing of who she is and who
she's become, and actually also be kind of diametrically deposed
to who she's become because he could care less is
utterly fascinating to me.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
It definitely shows the strain that can happen in a
marriage when somebody follows a different path and like, you know,
and it's that thing where it's like you know, it
happens with any marriage. You know, people grow and develop
at different rates. And I think the question, the fascinating
thing with this episode is sitting there, you get enough
(31:47):
to say to yourself, but why is she with him?
And that's a question you want answered. This is the
proper set. It's not a mystery box. It's not a
I'm having a dinner party. And at that point I'll
open up the box that's sitting here on the table
that will tell you.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
No.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
It's I see their interaction and I say, well, why
are they staying together? Now? I want to know more?
And it's because I see that interaction and it's it's
played so well. And again other people have said this,
but what a testament to Lucas and his casting director
for episode three to know how how vital this actress
(32:30):
was going to be Asthma and Mathma, Like God bless
them for knowing how well she could play this role,
even though she was cast for the equivalent of one
scene in episode three. I mean they paid attention.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Man, Yeah, I mean she's she's phenomenal. And I think,
like you said, you know, the beauty of this is
her portrayal and the questions that arrive around her are
just so fascinating, and she just does such a great
(33:05):
job of bringing life to a character that you know,
we saw for seconds in Return of the Jedi and
and we saw for seconds in Revenge of the Sith,
and you know, thankfully we got an opportunity to spend
some more time with her in Rebels. But yeah, you're
you're absolutely right. I mean, it's it's phenomenal casting the
(33:26):
fact that we've actually gotten to spend more time with her,
And it's great that this show exists in that sense,
just to be able to give us more of her
in that story, because we do know that she's so
pivotal to the rebellion and we even saw it, you know,
and Rogue one. So I think it's great obviously, you know,
(33:49):
first three episodes for you, like you liked a lot,
but you also had some issues with it. Sounds like
this is the this is the episode that really righted
the ship for you. And if I mean, if you
had a rating for this episode, what do you think
you'd give it?
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Oh gosh, I mean this is a solid four. Okay,
why not a five? Well, you know the serial stuff,
you know, Yeah, I get it. It's a long play
and there there's resolution, but not complete resolution. It's not
a fault of the show, right, Like it's a four
star piece of what could potentially be a five star,
(34:34):
Like it's it's solid four. Yeah, like it will never
go lower than four. It could only go up with
another rewatch or something like that. So that's where I
end with it. Where where did you end with it? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (34:45):
I think I I'm close to where you are, and
since I think I'd get four half out of five.
And part of that is just because at this point,
you know, in the storyline, I don't quite know where
we're going with the serial story, and so I'm kind
of like, why are we still following this dude at
this point and getting to his mother's house where he
gets slapped and he just kind of seems like a
(35:06):
little pity party boy. So yes, in that that that's
that's where it's like, I but you know, everything else
in some ways, it's like everything else in this episode
brings it so close to a five because the story
is so on point, and the and the acting for
(35:28):
all the characters, even like I think of all the
crew that we meet and Aldannie, they all feel interesting
and fascinating in that sense too, And so it's like
everything is really firing on all cylinders by this point,
and it just feels like we're just gonna you know,
we're gonna hit the pod race button and we're just
(35:51):
gonna fly from now on. So I'll be really excited
then to continue the story. And I kind of love
where kind of taking this at this slower pace because
it really gets this opportunity to kind of dig into
all the nitty gritty details. But John, if you know
people wanted to catch up with you, see what else
you've got going on, maybe talk some more and or
and just all the interesting Star Wars news and things
(36:14):
that are happening over on the internet, where would they
find you?
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Oh well, gosh, if you want my opinion on anything,
you can reach me at Matt Rushing zero two. Oh no,
I'm sorry, I'm kidding at Kessele Junkie and you can
find me here on the network, co hosting a show
called house Lights where we look at the work of
directors and we have lots of fun with that looking
at directors everybody from Fincher to Tarantino too. Someday, someday
(36:39):
they will answer my dreams and we will actually look
at the works of Catherine Bigelow, one of my favorite
underb appreciated directors. Yeah, and Matt, I know. I also
appear sometimes over on The six or two Club, which
is one of the many ways people can reach you online.
So where can people reach out to you?
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Absolutely check me out on the six or two Club
over on the TFM network with a lot of other
Star Trek Talk as well with a lot of other shows.
So if you like either of those things where you're
talking about fantoms that you love or the other Star franchise,
please do check that out.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
We love that.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Over on social media, I'm under the name Matt Rushing
zero two on Networks, So if you search that name
and I'm there, that's the name I'll be under. You
can also find me here on the network doing outpost.
Dreya Kaufman and I finished that show where we talked
about every single chapter the Harry Potter series, one chapter
at a time. But you know, John, I hear that
(37:39):
the chimes the temple calling. I think they're asking us
to bring back some sl Donnie Meade because Yoda is
actually a big fan. So I think it's time to
close these negotiations.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
He can drink a surprising amount for his body weight
and master rushing negotiations start.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
Plotters join the Revolution, join the Nerd Party.
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