March 11, 2025 • 42 mins
We’re closer to the new season of Andor, and so Matt and John continue their StarWars: Andor Season 1 rewatch to discuss their opinions of the fifth episode, “The Axe Forgets.” In the unenviable position as the middle episode of a three-episode arc, does it keep the momentum or lose its footing like a hike in the Aldhani mountains?
This episode features an in-depth discussion of the fifth episode of Star Wars: Andor’s first season, as they continue to explore what the filmmakers were working to accomplish.
Host
John Mills and Matthew Rushing
Love listening to Aggressive Negotiations, a Star Wars podcast that’s different from all the rest? Then you’ll love The Nerd Party, a one-of-a-kind podcast network focused on all the best of Star Trek, the magical realm of the Harry Potter books, the works of the best film directors in history, the latest from international film and comic stars, and so much more!
Send us your feedback!
Twitter: @TheJediMasters
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheNerdParty/
Email: http://www.thenerdparty.com/contact
Subscribe in Apple Podcasts
This episode features an in-depth discussion of the fifth episode of Star Wars: Andor’s first season, as they continue to explore what the filmmakers were working to accomplish.
Host
John Mills and Matthew Rushing
Love listening to Aggressive Negotiations, a Star Wars podcast that’s different from all the rest? Then you’ll love The Nerd Party, a one-of-a-kind podcast network focused on all the best of Star Trek, the magical realm of the Harry Potter books, the works of the best film directors in history, the latest from international film and comic stars, and so much more!
Send us your feedback!
Twitter: @TheJediMasters
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheNerdParty/
Email: http://www.thenerdparty.com/contact
Subscribe in Apple Podcasts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the ned Palty.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hi. This is Nick and Astasu, story editor on Star Wars,
the Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch. And you
are listening to Aggressive Negotiations.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
That's right, you are listening to Aggressive Negotiations the Star
Wars podcast that does things just a little bit differently
here as we navigate everywhere in between from the inner
Rim to the outer Rim, to the mid Rim, to
the top rim to the bottom rim, all types of rims,
all throughout the galaxy or what we're talking about here
for Star Wars. I am Jedi Master John Mills and
(00:46):
joining me for a discussion about the fifth episode of
and Or season one, Jedi Master Matthew Rushing. Matt, are
you ready to talk about the next chapter in the
Adventures on al Donnie?
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Can you pass the blue milk? I need some more
from my course on pops. These are Oh my gosh,
they are so good. How are you not eating these
right now?
Speaker 1 (01:07):
John?
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Well, you know I always was more partial to Sithberry.
It's a less popular brand, but I find it's that
little putting the pop rocks inside the cereal to give
you the feeling of force lightning on your tongue. I
really really enjoy it a great deal. But I also
enjoy people going over to Apple Podcasts giving us a
(01:30):
star rating and review. It's so little, so little. We
we're givers. We love to give. We give this show
to you regularly. We'd love it if you gave us
some attention over on Apple Podcasts. You know, just drop
us a rating and review, or even just a rating.
What do you feel like doing? We appreciate it. Something
else we appreciate is that every so often we come
(01:50):
across a series or a show where the negotiations do
in fact get aggressive. And and Or has been one
of those instances so far. I don't know it's the
Rogue one magic because Rogue one us had us thrown
down with each other, and then you know, the first
arc of and and Or has us thrown down. We
found a little bit more common ground with you know,
(02:12):
episode four of season one, Matt. Okay, So coming in
now we have our bridge episode, our middle episode of
the trilogy. Here, this is our empire strikes back of
the al Donni trilogy coming into it. Were you looking
forward to hitting this episode? Did it hit the same notes?
(02:34):
Let's get us started here?
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Yeah, I mean what I find personally interesting about this
episode is the way in which, because we're doing this
heist on Al Donnie and you know, the beginning episode
for this which was titled Al Donnie, we don't actually
(02:58):
really get to spend a ton of time there with
the entire crew that's going to be trying to pull
off this heist, and so this episode really allows us
to kind of get an opportunity to know them. And
in some ways, I think what makes this episode most
fascinating and most important to the series is it really
(03:18):
introduces us to the key theme of the entire series,
which is that everybody has their own rebellion, and so
that every single person who is in the rebellion has
a reason for which they have turned on the Empire.
And to me, that's incredibly interesting because it's so true, right, like,
(03:40):
we all have our different reasons for joining things or
being a part of things, and especially something of this magnitude.
And so that's the thing that really stood out to me,
especially in rewatching this episode and then on you know,
on top of that, I think the other thing that
(04:01):
really stands out is the fact that you have Keras
is you know, talking about you know, his basically dissertation
his manifesto about rebellion, and the thoughts that he has
are incredibly interesting as to why he believes the Empire
has been able to sustain power so easily for so long.
(04:23):
And those are the two things in this episode that
really always jump out to me in a rewatch. And again,
I think in some ways those both kind of come
out the the idea of rebellion in different ways, because
(04:44):
you know, the whole manifesto idea allows us to be
able to have an understanding as to why people have
finally gotten wise to the Empire, which has led them
to have their own rebellious reasons for actually joining something
more formal.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
And so I don't know, what about what about you?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
With this episode?
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Well, I was looking forward to seeing it because you know,
as everybody knows by this point who's been listening, you
know my struggles with the first three fourth one. I
was like, oh, okay, cool, I'm digging what's going on here.
Didn't love the fact that we spent time with uh,
you know, Captain Tight Outfit the Ciral two Shoes, Yeah, Cyril,
(05:28):
that's the guy, which is weird.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
They cereal, And so I wonder if that's how they
named him in all honesty, probably so probably it sounds
like George would have done right, Like that's a completely
George Lucas naming convention, like.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Uh yeah, yeah, or you ask a kid what they
call a corn fitter exactly.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
So I think that, Uh.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
I was, you know, looking forward to coming into this.
And I understand and appreciate everything you're saying about everybody
having their own reason for rebellion, and I think that
is very important when you're seeing something coming together like
this and not everybody's coming together for this monolithic cause
it's too easy for now. You know, the movies are big,
(06:14):
The movies are supposed to act like fairy tales. The
good guys are the good guys, the bad guys are
the bad guys. And the shows are where you start
to get into the gray area and explore a little
bit more of you know, quote unquote real life, what
it's like for average people. All of that positive said,
I had struggles with this episode again with the way
that it intercut certain things. I just don't care for
(06:37):
following Cyril's story, and it's when he was on screen.
I remember the first time I saw it, I thought
that the cereal was clever. I thought that was cute.
I thought that having recognizable fruits on the table that
she pushes over toward him was cute seeing a you know,
he's the product of a domineering mother. Okay, that's cool.
(07:00):
I just don't like following the character, and I would
have preferred if this episode had stayed much more focused
and Cyril doesn't get a lot of screen time here.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
That's the funny thing.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
It seems like such a a weird thing to quibble about,
but I would have preferred a different rhythm with Dedra
and maybe even spending a little more time with Isb,
because that's more relevant to what's going on on Aldonni
at this point. No, her sitting there and everything going
on with the ISB way more relevant with my A
(07:31):
plot over here, and so the C plot is yet again,
I'm like, Okay, do I really have to be here
with this right now?
Speaker 2 (07:39):
No?
Speaker 4 (07:39):
I mean I this is a place where I think
we agree, and part of that is both of us
also knowing that in the future in this season, we
still I don't feel like completely understand as why we're
following this character right Like, there's no clear answer by
the end of this season, and so I'm with you,
(08:02):
I'm glad he got little screen time. I mean, I
in some ways it is kind of a fascinating thing
just to watch, because, like you said, he's got this
dominating mother, and he's got this you know, he can
never do anything to blease her enough, and so he's
basically just kind of fed up with her in that sense.
(08:23):
And it also, I mean, the one aspect that does
make him somewhat interesting is the way in which, you know,
his mom doesn't really care what he's involved in. She
just wants to look good as a byproduct of whatever
he's involved in. So he could be an imperial agent,
you know, he was obviously corporate security, all this stuff,
(08:46):
and so I do find that to be an interesting idea.
But I don't necessarily think this. This is probably the
only place in this season where.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
It's just it.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
It never quite comes together, I don't think, and even
in this episode, of course, and I also don't I
don't know if maybe it's just executed well enough to
maybe bring home those salient points that I'm kind of
thinking of. But that's also because I've seen the show
(09:22):
a few times now, and so no. I mean, I
can't really disagree with you. I think you're in, you know,
completely right about this. It's just a strange storyline that
never quite seems to gel with all the other storylines,
which very much seem to intercut perfectly right, you know,
(09:44):
as you watch all of these different characters and their
struggles either in the Imperial system or you know, working
to fight against it on different levels, and the reasons why,
and those things all inter so well, and then you
have this story of the guy just trying to you know,
(10:04):
just a simple guy trying to make his way into universe.
And it's not all that exciting.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
I mean, the thing is, we all know that everybody
on the face of the planet loves to play sort
of like phantom writer's room. It's like, well, if I
were in the writer's room, this is what I would
have said. But I can honestly tell you keeps hero
on the show. Fine, keep him on Ferys and have
him become the butt of people's jokes. Have him also
go through some some sort of like PTSD stuff from
(10:29):
the battle where you see him shaken to his core.
He doesn't know what he believes anymore. The ISB shows
up treats him like dirt, and then he is trying
to screw up the courage to like, you know, shake
it off and become a person again. And then ironically
he saves Ddre at the end because he's trying to
be a hero, and it's like, that's I think that's
(10:52):
a more interesting arc.
Speaker 5 (10:54):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yeah, I don't give two hoots about that.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
I think another challenge with the episode, even though I
understand its place, is that the mon Mothma stuff is necessary,
but doesn't fit necessarily with the energy of the rest
of the episode, where I know why I'm with her,
(11:18):
I know why I need to be with her, but
as a result, it winds up feeling at times a
bit perfunctory, where it's like, Okay, well we got to
do this, and it's like eh, again, getting back to
that hole in a movie. I'm probably more patient with it,
but within the contained arc of a show, a single episode,
(11:39):
you know, I'm not dismissive of it, but I'm like, eh,
this doesn't feel it doesn't feel as organic as the.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Rest of it.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Like those other two plot lines very organic, and then
these other two bits don't feel as organic too.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
Me. Yeah, I mean I guess that I would definitely
disagree with that, because I find that part of the
storyline really interesting and I think it really does fit
because this pivotal character to the rebellion and its success
in the first place, her battle in her own family
is having a family that doesn't care, you know, and
(12:17):
doesn't even really even seem to like her, which is
kind of a fascinating thing.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
And so.
Speaker 4 (12:26):
I really and and yet the reason that she's doing
this is because she thinks it's best for everyone her
family involved, even if they don't care. And in some ways,
because each of these seasons is basically just one big
long story, like most prestige television is these days, Like
(12:46):
I just don't I don't have any issue with that,
I mean, and that that's just the way prestige television
is told, and so I am. I'm fine with it.
And part of that is because this goes somewhere very interesting,
because because the storyline for man Matha and her family
is going to get very personal as per what she
(13:07):
feels like she has to do in order to get
what she needs done later on, and so you need
these scenes to kind of set all this up, this
family drama, which is actually going to play out on
the larger scale, and so the micro becomes the macro
very quickly for them.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Yeah, but again.
Speaker 4 (13:28):
It's like the serial story is the one where I'm
like totally with you in that sense where it's like
it just never goes anywhere, and so it doesn't ever
really redeem itself for me.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
But the thing is, Man math was story fine. Interesting, Yes,
And like I said, I understand why I'm seeing it.
I understand why I need to. I just don't think
it matches the energy of the rest of it. And
I think it has this unfortunate position of needing to
be there, and it's just it's a gear that doesn't
catch quite the same way within the context of the episode.
(14:00):
And I think that overall that that is a detraction
from it because it interrupts that energy. And you know,
maybe it's a testament to the fact that the stuff
that's going on in al Donnie does have my interest,
the stuff going on with Dedra does have my interest,
and it's just that the way that the mon Mathma
stuff comes in again, I understand what it's saying, I
(14:22):
understand why it's there. I understand how long form television works.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
And everything.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
It just it winds up interrupting this specific episode in
such a way that I think it just has the
unfortunate position of being necessary but difficult.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
I guess in the thing though that I don't understand
is like what do you want from it? Like what
I mean if you understand that it's necessary and everything,
Like I'm trying to understand exactly what would make this
work better for you. I again we both agree on
like how the serial stuff like you could probably cut
(14:59):
that out of this episode and not feel like you
miss anything.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
And even prestige long form tell if it's prestige long
form is to the end?
Speaker 4 (15:07):
Does already mentioned is that in the end, Yes, he
has an important moment back as this this this season ends,
but the storyline for him getting there feels so not
worth having followed.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
Probably probably What I'd say is this is that the
mon Mothmas stuff probably could have been put together like
in more of a.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
More of a bubble throughout.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
The episode, like it's it, it's chunked out in a
way you could have condensed it so that it all
occurs closer together. In terms of the actual cutting of everything,
the inter cutting of everything that's I put that there
like that, right, like, instead of having it spread out,
which they do with Cyril here too, where it's like, oh, okay,
(16:00):
you know what if this is a necessary but you know,
not the same sort of like vibe of the other two.
Take it and make it like a chapter break where
it's like I turn my attention over here and I
spend my time over here, and then I turn back
and keep with the other stuff that's going forward.
Speaker 4 (16:15):
Oh yeah, and I I don't agree because I feel
like the vibe of all of the storylines fits in
the sense that this is the this is the percolation
of the storylines, and so every one of them is percolating. Again,
I don't love the serial storyline because I just don't
(16:35):
find it interesting, just like you. But it's like the
Monmathma stuff I do find interesting, And just like what's
happening on Aldani, which is this kind of like things
are at that they're getting close to boiling point, you know,
at the same time that's happening with the ISB stuff
that's also happening within this family, and so all of
(16:57):
that feels like to me, it fits level wise when
I cut in between and so what you're saying is
that you just don't feel that that same vibe shift
or I guess energy shift, Like it feels like that
maybe that storyline's low energy for you and you wanted
it to be feel more in line with the other
(17:19):
energy you're getting for the other storylines. Is that what
I'm hearing?
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Yeah, sort of, But like what I was saying a
minute ago, right, like, take it and instead of putting
pieces throughout the episode, come back and have it all
yeah as a chapter break where it's like I get
my setup, I get my time on all Donnie, I
get maybe a check in with with Dedra, and then
I come back and I spend time with man Mathma
and I'm like, oh, okay, this is all going on
(17:44):
while Donnie's going on and Deezer's doing her thing, and
then I turn my attention back. Keep in mind I'm
leaving Cyril out of this equation completely well.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
And that I in some ways like they kind of
tried to do that. I feel like with the season
three of The Mandalorian, and I felt like it was
terrible because there was that whole episode that they just
all of a sudden, it takes place all the way
over on Courissant and you're like, no, no, no, no, no,
But to me, I guess what. I'm just trying to
(18:15):
point out. I like the inner cutting of the stories
this way more than I do something where things are
more partitioned.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Look, this is this is such quippling. And I know
there's somebody out there shouting at their speakers right now.
So I'm just gonna say again, you can even have
your mom motha stuff in here. No, I within the
context of the specific episode. I'm just saying, keep it
closer to you. I'm not saying go to Chorissant and
break the entire flow of the entire show or the
(18:46):
entire arc.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Or anything like.
Speaker 4 (18:47):
Now I'm saying, I get what you're saying, chapter breaks.
I'm just kind of like, what I'm saying is that
I I don't have a problem with the flow.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
So again, it's it's not it's it's not the flow
I'm talking about, like the the you know what I've
spoken ill yet again of a chapter having to do
with the great Holy writ of Tony Gilroy's.
Speaker 5 (19:13):
And Okay, you're making fun of me, but I'm.
Speaker 4 (19:17):
Like, we we agree obviously on points of this, but
we disagree on other points of the editing of the episode,
and and so.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Don't get don't get me into trouble with like talking
about the editing. I'm just saying it could have been
group closer together. I'm not talking about like swapping this
shot for that shot or trimming a second off.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
But I know what I'm saying is, but that what
we're talking about in the end is the editing of
the episode because it's the way in which they havecro
they have connected the different story points, and so you're
wanting the editing to have the storylines for each different
section be a little bit you know, more condensed together
(20:02):
than kind of spread out throughout the entire episode where
we just kind of.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Just just that specific one, just that specific one, is
what I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
Yes, which I get what you're saying, and I feel
like that would feel even weirder, like if you did that,
it would be like.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
What it does. It doesn't it doesn't need to be
a ten or fifteen minute chunk. I'm saying, you could
have been restructured overall, you know so well.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
I think too that that would be harder for that one,
because really you're that storyline because we don't spend a
ton of time with mont Mathma in this episode, and
so because really it's just snapshots of what's happening in
her life with her family specifically here to que us
in so that you know, anyway, as we get later
(20:50):
we have the context. And so yeah, I'm not you
would have had to actually I think shoot more with
her rather than less to make what you're asking for work.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Possibly, but maybe it would have worked.
Speaker 4 (21:02):
But I know, and so I mean, probably you know
it might have worked better for you, But.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
I know, I know I'm not the only person on
the planet that you know what. Reach out to me
at Matt Rushing zero two on Twitter, yes, and let
me know you know what, you know, whether you agree
with with those of us, because I know there's.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
I mean, you can or you can tell me, you
know at Kessel Junkie why he's wrong and and and
especially if you're read Nicodemus, you can tell him why
he's wrong and why the editing here is actually correct
instead of wrong.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
And so there's there's a there's a big problem here
in that uh, Matt at Kessel Junkie is for the
next forty days not going to be on social media,
So don't bother saying anything to him. In fact, if
you're angry, go to my account at matt Russian zero
two and come after me. Come after me hard, I mean,
(21:55):
cuss me out.
Speaker 4 (21:56):
I see, I see how it is you you give
up this for lent and then throw the shade at me.
I got it. I see how this is working.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
Okay, you know what I'm giving. Like I said at
the beginning, we're givers.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
I'm giving this.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
So I wanted to ask you, though I did want
to go because the whole idea of this manifesto, which
kind of drives this whole thought process of underpinning the
entire thematic elements of this show in general, as to
the reason for rebellion and all of that, I wanted
(22:34):
to ask you about that because to me, I remember
seeing this show for the first time and being very
surprised that we were really going to kind of dig in,
you know, this philosophically, because you know, apart from the
theology of Star Wars with like the force and stuff,
(22:56):
we don't tend to dive in this philosophically. And so
what did you end up thinking of that, especially here
on the rewatch?
Speaker 1 (23:07):
I mean, I think the manifesto stuff is interesting. I
think that.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
The I'm not going to keep the character names you
know throughout, but you know, I thought the character who
who you know who basically has that that conversation with
and Or where it's like, we're too reliant on imperial
technology when you should know how to fix our own stuff,
and this is my manifesto in here.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
That sort of thing, I think it's very interesting.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
The tough thing that I can't get out of my
brain right now is I started to see shades not
because of that character, but because of that interaction where
he starts talking about life in the world and stuff
like that. I suddenly saw, and I don't know if
you you might have seen the same sort of thing,
but there's a very there's a similar vibe to the
(23:56):
crew of the nebuchad Nezer in the Matrix, to this
rebel cell with and Or as Neo, and I like,
for some reason it hit me this time where I
suddenly saw the scene where they're all sitting around the
dinner not dinner but the mess table, and that the
(24:19):
young kid, the idealist in the Matrix is sitting there saying,
you ever notice how it tastes like He's like, everything
tastes like chicken because it couldn't figure out what everything
tasted like, so it just made everything taste like chicken.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
I got a similar vibe to that. That's not a knock.
It's not a knock.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
I'm just saying, like, I saw shades of that, which
was interesting to me.
Speaker 4 (24:40):
Yeah, I had not thought about that, and I do
think that that's an interesting read. I would not have
honestly picked up on that, you know, at rewatching it
this time. The thing that I was really struck by
was the way in which, you know, when he talks
about the idea of the imperial technology and just kind
(25:02):
of being overloaded with thing after thing after thing, you know, uh,
and and how this you know, keeps people from being
able to really recognize what's happening. I find that really
fascinating because, you know, it is an incredibly because the
(25:24):
conversation is not long, but it's an incredibly astute discussion
of where we are in society, right and and and
the ways in which, uh, you know, even our own
politics can create this difficulty for people to follow. Basically,
(25:49):
we are entertaining ourselves to death, you know, by being
lulled to sleep with with technology. Uh and and that's
the interesting thing that I kind of find about this discussion,
and so and I like that because it again it's
it's just subtle enough. And it's also I think fits
(26:14):
so well in line with just the way in which
George kind of created Star Wars, which is not to
be so tied into just one time frame, but to
feel very applicable that, you know, when you could watch
the show in thirty years and have a completely different
perspective as to what this characters talking up about, but
(26:37):
at the same time still feel like he's talking to you,
which I really appreciate about the writing here.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
I think it's very I think you're you're spot on.
They're obviously making a comment about how, you know, our
obsession with technological convenience keeps us slaves to those that
wish to control us. Absolutely, that is an eternal, universal theme,
just like the themes that mister Lucas put in there,
(27:05):
and it's the right note to hit. I would love
to have had a moment, and this is not I'm
not knocking the episode, but I would have also loved
a character to counterpoint him strongly saying well, it's because
life got convenient that we were able to distract ourselves
(27:27):
with conveniences people missed out on previous terrible instances regimes, kings, dictatorships,
one of the forms of government, or because the struggle
to survive was so pronounced that they didn't have time
to consider swapping out the rule because they were scrabbling.
(27:52):
And so I think that becomes an even that becomes
an equally interesting thread for them to have pursued to
have a character A. Yes, that's that's contributing to it now.
But no matter the time period that Palpatine takes over,
there's gonna be something that's going to keep the majority
(28:13):
of the population distracted from what's going on, because they're
all going to have to say. I can't exactly what
Luke says. He's working hard on the farm. He's out
in the middle of nowhere. He only has his aunt
and uncle with him. His friends treat him like an outcast.
Biggs just left and he's you know, and he's like,
you know, the empire so far away from here. You know,
(28:35):
what am I going to do about this? This is
I live here, this is what I do. It's that
Luke's caught in the same trap without that same sort
of underpinning of living in Coruscant or something like that.
Speaker 4 (28:47):
It is, so what you're saying is I can't walk.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Out because you love Palpatine too much.
Speaker 4 (28:55):
Baby, too much baby anyway.
Speaker 5 (29:01):
Yeah, God, restant, No, I do think you're you're you're
writing at and and uh, the other part of the episode,
which which stands out to me because we don't spend
a time with time with luth In here, but the
conversation that we end up having with him.
Speaker 4 (29:19):
About the way in which they have reached the point
where big risks have to be taken and and and
in fact you know that they're they're these risks that
could put all that they've been working for so far
(29:41):
in jeopardy. But but they're getting to that tipping point
where where it's like we do this now or maybe
nothing ever happens. And and so I wanted to ask
you about that because I just found that to be
another place where the episode, uh, it just feels like
(30:02):
we're ratcheting up the tension so that as the payoff
comes in the next episode, it's like we truly understand
just everything's at stake and how everything is just on
that knife's edge, you know, and if we stray, just
as Glady Real would say in The Lord of Rings,
you know, if you stray just a little bit, we're
(30:24):
done for. And so what did you think about that? No?
Speaker 3 (30:31):
I I think that it does a brilliant job of
setting the stakes. Why do I care so much about
this heist? Why is this not just another thing? And
it's because if this thing doesn't happen, everything, like you said,
everything's writing on it.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
It has to happen.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
If it doesn't happen, everything is lost outside of even
just and Or's life. And it's like that immediately communicates
to the audience how important this is. And why even
if I have any sort of you know, quibbles with
the show here or there, it's at least given me
(31:12):
that nice, big shiny object to look at it and say, yeah,
but I want to find out how this turns out,
because I've been told in other shows at other times
this has to happen. Everything's going to fall apart. And
then it falls apart, and that they pulled the rug
pull are they serious it would fall apart? If it's
like Luke at the beginning of Return of the Jedi.
(31:36):
When you first encounter him, he's in shadow, he's dressed
in black, and the first movie does is what Vader does,
which is choke people and people because we've seen Return
of the Jedi so many times, we forget that that's
a conscious decision to come in and have you reminded
very quickly, Luke can still go to the dark side. Yeah,
this is not a done deal. He's not necessarily the hero.
(31:59):
And I think that is in that same sort of
vein of oh, I got to at least know how
this pans out well.
Speaker 4 (32:07):
And and I like that you said that too, because
you know, one of the interesting parts about this this episode,
uh is that you know and Or uh gets kind
of found out by you know, Skin uh pushing him
to give him the reason why he's actually there.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (32:25):
And you know, we find out the reason that he's there,
which we all know, which is for the money that
you know, for him, this rebellion is not a rebellion.
It's just trying to find a way to get out
and get away to uh, you know, to be able
to save you know, his his adopted mother, you know,
(32:49):
and his own skin. And so I what what's what's
great here. You know too, is is that when you
think about in real one where he talks about you know,
I've been in this fight since I was six years old.
This fight for him has just taken on so many
different iterations.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
You know.
Speaker 4 (33:12):
You get him being the kid on on what's the
name of his planet, You get to him being a
kid on the planet of Canari right where where uh
the the Republic is responsible for some sort of mining
(33:32):
guild coming in and basically strip unting his planet, killing
his parents and leaving an orphan with his sister, and
then having them get separated, and then just to slowly
watch him go from being a guy like in some
ways like this is the more gritty version of what
happens to Han Solo, right, you know, from going from
being a guy who's only out for himself to being
(33:55):
the guy who's in this for some thing much bigger.
And I find that to be incredibly fascinating to take
that more gritty approach than to following his story. And
it's one of the things I just kind of really
love about the series and the show, and it's one
of the reasons that I think, you know, even though
(34:16):
this episode is the middle of a trilogy of episodes.
It's like it sets up everything so well for just
the character stuff, so that you know, when you get
to the next one, we can do all the action
and then also have the suspense of like this has
to pay off or we're really in trouble.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
So, I mean, given all of that on the star
rating scale, do you give this a five twelve?
Speaker 1 (34:44):
No?
Speaker 4 (34:44):
I mean this this episode, as much as I do
enjoy it, you know, I think this is the type.
This is the episode and the season where it's probably
three point seven five corsant puffs out of five because
there's a lot that I really like here, but the
(35:06):
serial storyline does kind of just break up. I think
what for me, The rest of the flow of the
episode was fantastic. It's like if I had excised him
in some ways, I'd feel great. You know, I almost
feel like he's the character here. You know, we didn't
even talk about you know, de dra and her storyline,
which but again, you cut him out, like you could
(35:29):
have not had him in this episode at all, or
even maybe the next episode, it seems like, and then
not revisited his story until possibly the next trilogy of episodes,
and I would.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Have been just fine with that until they get back
to fair Yeah.
Speaker 4 (35:46):
Something like that.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
You know, I don't know. Listen.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
And the thing is, I feel bad for the actor
playing it. No, he's he does a find job what
he's being tasked to do. I agree, there's a aramy
that wants to give this a three, but I wind
up giving it like a three five.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
Cause wow, we're not even that far off the.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Performance by the actor who plays But it's all strictly
the actor who plays scheme so good and he is phenomenal,
and so this entire entire episode gets elevated strictly because
of him. Overall, it's a three with him. I'm giving
(36:28):
it some extra love because I enjoyed his performance so
damn much, especially how effortlessly he inhabits somebody who's a
cynic but not ragey. Right, he doesn't have a chip
(36:49):
on his shoulder about it. He's he's this this very cool,
pragmatic type of rebellious where it's like, you know, I've
lost everything, anyway, screw it, I might as well try
to take some some of these a holes out with me, yeah,
and make an impact. And adding in that he's a
war veteran basically you know, like that that's some great,
(37:12):
great acting going on there and an interesting character.
Speaker 4 (37:14):
Well, and I want to touch on that too real
quick is because what you just said about him and
his acting, like that's I think the thing that's really
fascinating about this show is that even even the character
we don't like, like, all the performances in this show
so far are just top notch, right, None of it
(37:35):
is necessarily the actor's fault. I feel like for not
pulling off the storyline, you know, any any fault there,
I kind of lay it like, you know, I feel
like Gilroy and his brother could have found a better
way to integrate that serial storyline. But it's like, yeah,
I mean the way he's playing it, he creates this
character this is just kind of somewhat creepy, somewhat just
(37:58):
like almost seemingly aloof and disturbed. And that is kind
of interesting because that's a that it's kind of a
fascinating thing to turn somebody into some sort of fanatic, right,
which is.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Kind of where we go with the character.
Speaker 4 (38:13):
And so all of that is you're absolutely you know,
the guy playing scheme is just the tip of the
iceberg for this This episode of how well everybody is
doing performance wise, which is I think a real hallmark
of this show is that, man, it feels like just
(38:34):
everybody brings their a game the whole time, which is
which is wonderful because even in the episodes you don't love,
I find myself kind of engrossed just by the performances themselves.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
I think a lot of it has to do with
Diego Luna. Yes, I agree, the producer he Yeah, it's
just like you and McGregor, Like, you can tell how
much love is being put into it. That this actor
is here and he's so there, that's he's involved at
a higher level. Yes, he needs to be there and
(39:08):
part of this, and he's injecting that passion he has
for it into it. Whatever problems I might have with
the Obi Wan show, I could tell that McGregor cared
deeply about telling this story the best way that he
possibly could.
Speaker 4 (39:22):
Yeah, and he showed up and every moment I've ever seen. Yeah,
And which was really because you know, he's the focal.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Point of that.
Speaker 4 (39:31):
But no, no, I agree. I think you're absolutely right.
In some ways, I think these shows are kind of
best win. The lead of the show is completely sold
out to the show. I actually think it's one of
the reasons why, even though season three of The Mandalorian
(39:51):
was not its best season, when you had Katie Sakoff
on the show and she had so much more lead
time in that season, it's great because she truly is
the same way. She very much cares about this character
and making sure that it's right and getting it right.
You know, tomorrow Morrison even book a boafit same way
(40:13):
he really cares, I think about getting it right. And
so you know, any other faults aren't on the main person.
Speaker 3 (40:21):
And so yeah, I'm not going to hold him accountable
for that speeder chase. No, that's not on him.
Speaker 4 (40:28):
That is definitely an editing problem.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
On that we can agree. So where else can people
agree with you?
Speaker 4 (40:35):
Well, they can find me out there that Matt Rushing
zero two all over social media. So if I'm on
that platform, search for that name, you'll find me. I
would love to talk to you. Of course, you'll find
me here on the network with the completed show called
outposts about every single chapter of the Harry Potter series.
You can find me over on the TFM network with
a bunch of shows. One is the six oh two Club.
(40:58):
That is a show where we talk about all of
the fandoms that we love, not just one. John's a
frequent guest over there. We have a great time, so
hope you'll check that out. And then I do a
lot of great Star Trek talk over there with Christopher Jones,
as we're doing a bunch of anniversary rewatches for things
like Star Trek Voyager, Star Trek Enterprise and Start Trek
Deep Phase nine, so make sure that you check those
(41:18):
out as well. But John, if people don't want to
catch up with you on social media because you're off
for lent, where would they find you?
Speaker 1 (41:27):
You know what?
Speaker 3 (41:28):
I'm going to try my best to stay in communication
with the world in some way over on my blog
Casseljunkie dot com. But typically you can find Castle Junkie
out there on your social network of choice, although there's
so many of them now that I don't belong everywhere. Yes, yes,
very few outlets anymore. But you can also find me
(41:50):
right here on the network, co hosting a show called
house Lights where we look at the work of film directors.
I know, groundbreaking movie podcast. What pardon me, we're blazing
trails over there, but it is a lot of fun.
I highly recommend you to Hey, hey, oh, don't even
get me started about the disappointment of discussing Blazing Saddles
(42:11):
with somebody that doesn't love that movie, because I just
don't get the world sometimes. But what I do get
is this, uh, this message on my Jeta communicator saying
it's time to head back to the temple. So Master Rushing,
I think it's time we close these negotiations John Negotiations
and Mark
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Lars join the Revolution, join the Nerd Party.
Welcome to the ned Palty.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hi. This is Nick and Astasu, story editor on Star Wars,
the Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch. And you
are listening to Aggressive Negotiations.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
That's right, you are listening to Aggressive Negotiations the Star
Wars podcast that does things just a little bit differently
here as we navigate everywhere in between from the inner
Rim to the outer Rim, to the mid Rim, to
the top rim to the bottom rim, all types of rims,
all throughout the galaxy or what we're talking about here
for Star Wars. I am Jedi Master John Mills and
(00:46):
joining me for a discussion about the fifth episode of
and Or season one, Jedi Master Matthew Rushing. Matt, are
you ready to talk about the next chapter in the
Adventures on al Donnie?
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Can you pass the blue milk? I need some more
from my course on pops. These are Oh my gosh,
they are so good. How are you not eating these
right now?
Speaker 1 (01:07):
John?
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Well, you know I always was more partial to Sithberry.
It's a less popular brand, but I find it's that
little putting the pop rocks inside the cereal to give
you the feeling of force lightning on your tongue. I
really really enjoy it a great deal. But I also
enjoy people going over to Apple Podcasts giving us a
(01:30):
star rating and review. It's so little, so little. We
we're givers. We love to give. We give this show
to you regularly. We'd love it if you gave us
some attention over on Apple Podcasts. You know, just drop
us a rating and review, or even just a rating.
What do you feel like doing? We appreciate it. Something
else we appreciate is that every so often we come
(01:50):
across a series or a show where the negotiations do
in fact get aggressive. And and Or has been one
of those instances so far. I don't know it's the
Rogue one magic because Rogue one us had us thrown
down with each other, and then you know, the first
arc of and and Or has us thrown down. We
found a little bit more common ground with you know,
(02:12):
episode four of season one, Matt. Okay, So coming in
now we have our bridge episode, our middle episode of
the trilogy. Here, this is our empire strikes back of
the al Donni trilogy coming into it. Were you looking
forward to hitting this episode? Did it hit the same notes?
(02:34):
Let's get us started here?
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Yeah, I mean what I find personally interesting about this
episode is the way in which, because we're doing this
heist on Al Donnie and you know, the beginning episode
for this which was titled Al Donnie, we don't actually
(02:58):
really get to spend a ton of time there with
the entire crew that's going to be trying to pull
off this heist, and so this episode really allows us
to kind of get an opportunity to know them. And
in some ways, I think what makes this episode most
fascinating and most important to the series is it really
(03:18):
introduces us to the key theme of the entire series,
which is that everybody has their own rebellion, and so
that every single person who is in the rebellion has
a reason for which they have turned on the Empire.
And to me, that's incredibly interesting because it's so true, right, like,
(03:40):
we all have our different reasons for joining things or
being a part of things, and especially something of this magnitude.
And so that's the thing that really stood out to me,
especially in rewatching this episode and then on you know,
on top of that, I think the other thing that
(04:01):
really stands out is the fact that you have Keras
is you know, talking about you know, his basically dissertation
his manifesto about rebellion, and the thoughts that he has
are incredibly interesting as to why he believes the Empire
has been able to sustain power so easily for so long.
(04:23):
And those are the two things in this episode that
really always jump out to me in a rewatch. And again,
I think in some ways those both kind of come
out the the idea of rebellion in different ways, because
(04:44):
you know, the whole manifesto idea allows us to be
able to have an understanding as to why people have
finally gotten wise to the Empire, which has led them
to have their own rebellious reasons for actually joining something
more formal.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
And so I don't know, what about what about you?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
With this episode?
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Well, I was looking forward to seeing it because you know,
as everybody knows by this point who's been listening, you
know my struggles with the first three fourth one. I
was like, oh, okay, cool, I'm digging what's going on here.
Didn't love the fact that we spent time with uh,
you know, Captain Tight Outfit the Ciral two Shoes, Yeah, Cyril,
(05:28):
that's the guy, which is weird.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
They cereal, And so I wonder if that's how they
named him in all honesty, probably so probably it sounds
like George would have done right, Like that's a completely
George Lucas naming convention, like.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Uh yeah, yeah, or you ask a kid what they
call a corn fitter exactly.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
So I think that, Uh.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
I was, you know, looking forward to coming into this.
And I understand and appreciate everything you're saying about everybody
having their own reason for rebellion, and I think that
is very important when you're seeing something coming together like
this and not everybody's coming together for this monolithic cause
it's too easy for now. You know, the movies are big,
(06:14):
The movies are supposed to act like fairy tales. The
good guys are the good guys, the bad guys are
the bad guys. And the shows are where you start
to get into the gray area and explore a little
bit more of you know, quote unquote real life, what
it's like for average people. All of that positive said,
I had struggles with this episode again with the way
that it intercut certain things. I just don't care for
(06:37):
following Cyril's story, and it's when he was on screen.
I remember the first time I saw it, I thought
that the cereal was clever. I thought that was cute.
I thought that having recognizable fruits on the table that
she pushes over toward him was cute seeing a you know,
he's the product of a domineering mother. Okay, that's cool.
(07:00):
I just don't like following the character, and I would
have preferred if this episode had stayed much more focused
and Cyril doesn't get a lot of screen time here.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
That's the funny thing.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
It seems like such a a weird thing to quibble about,
but I would have preferred a different rhythm with Dedra
and maybe even spending a little more time with Isb,
because that's more relevant to what's going on on Aldonni
at this point. No, her sitting there and everything going
on with the ISB way more relevant with my A
(07:31):
plot over here, and so the C plot is yet again,
I'm like, Okay, do I really have to be here
with this right now?
Speaker 2 (07:39):
No?
Speaker 4 (07:39):
I mean I this is a place where I think
we agree, and part of that is both of us
also knowing that in the future in this season, we
still I don't feel like completely understand as why we're
following this character right Like, there's no clear answer by
the end of this season, and so I'm with you,
(08:02):
I'm glad he got little screen time. I mean, I
in some ways it is kind of a fascinating thing
just to watch, because, like you said, he's got this
dominating mother, and he's got this you know, he can
never do anything to blease her enough, and so he's
basically just kind of fed up with her in that sense.
(08:23):
And it also, I mean, the one aspect that does
make him somewhat interesting is the way in which, you know,
his mom doesn't really care what he's involved in. She
just wants to look good as a byproduct of whatever
he's involved in. So he could be an imperial agent,
you know, he was obviously corporate security, all this stuff,
(08:46):
and so I do find that to be an interesting idea.
But I don't necessarily think this. This is probably the
only place in this season where.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
It's just it.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
It never quite comes together, I don't think, and even
in this episode, of course, and I also don't I
don't know if maybe it's just executed well enough to
maybe bring home those salient points that I'm kind of
thinking of. But that's also because I've seen the show
(09:22):
a few times now, and so no. I mean, I
can't really disagree with you. I think you're in, you know,
completely right about this. It's just a strange storyline that
never quite seems to gel with all the other storylines,
which very much seem to intercut perfectly right, you know,
(09:44):
as you watch all of these different characters and their
struggles either in the Imperial system or you know, working
to fight against it on different levels, and the reasons why,
and those things all inter so well, and then you
have this story of the guy just trying to you know,
(10:04):
just a simple guy trying to make his way into universe.
And it's not all that exciting.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
I mean, the thing is, we all know that everybody
on the face of the planet loves to play sort
of like phantom writer's room. It's like, well, if I
were in the writer's room, this is what I would
have said. But I can honestly tell you keeps hero
on the show. Fine, keep him on Ferys and have
him become the butt of people's jokes. Have him also
go through some some sort of like PTSD stuff from
(10:29):
the battle where you see him shaken to his core.
He doesn't know what he believes anymore. The ISB shows
up treats him like dirt, and then he is trying
to screw up the courage to like, you know, shake
it off and become a person again. And then ironically
he saves Ddre at the end because he's trying to
be a hero, and it's like, that's I think that's
(10:52):
a more interesting arc.
Speaker 5 (10:54):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yeah, I don't give two hoots about that.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
I think another challenge with the episode, even though I
understand its place, is that the mon Mothma stuff is necessary,
but doesn't fit necessarily with the energy of the rest
of the episode, where I know why I'm with her,
(11:18):
I know why I need to be with her, but
as a result, it winds up feeling at times a
bit perfunctory, where it's like, Okay, well we got to
do this, and it's like eh, again, getting back to
that hole in a movie. I'm probably more patient with it,
but within the contained arc of a show, a single episode,
(11:39):
you know, I'm not dismissive of it, but I'm like, eh,
this doesn't feel it doesn't feel as organic as the.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Rest of it.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Like those other two plot lines very organic, and then
these other two bits don't feel as organic too.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
Me. Yeah, I mean I guess that I would definitely
disagree with that, because I find that part of the
storyline really interesting and I think it really does fit
because this pivotal character to the rebellion and its success
in the first place, her battle in her own family
is having a family that doesn't care, you know, and
(12:17):
doesn't even really even seem to like her, which is
kind of a fascinating thing.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
And so.
Speaker 4 (12:26):
I really and and yet the reason that she's doing
this is because she thinks it's best for everyone her
family involved, even if they don't care. And in some ways,
because each of these seasons is basically just one big
long story, like most prestige television is these days, Like
(12:46):
I just don't I don't have any issue with that,
I mean, and that that's just the way prestige television
is told, and so I am. I'm fine with it.
And part of that is because this goes somewhere very interesting,
because because the storyline for man Matha and her family
is going to get very personal as per what she
(13:07):
feels like she has to do in order to get
what she needs done later on, and so you need
these scenes to kind of set all this up, this
family drama, which is actually going to play out on
the larger scale, and so the micro becomes the macro
very quickly for them.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Yeah, but again.
Speaker 4 (13:28):
It's like the serial story is the one where I'm
like totally with you in that sense where it's like
it just never goes anywhere, and so it doesn't ever
really redeem itself for me.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
But the thing is, Man math was story fine. Interesting, Yes,
And like I said, I understand why I'm seeing it.
I understand why I need to. I just don't think
it matches the energy of the rest of it. And
I think it has this unfortunate position of needing to
be there, and it's just it's a gear that doesn't
catch quite the same way within the context of the episode.
(14:00):
And I think that overall that that is a detraction
from it because it interrupts that energy. And you know,
maybe it's a testament to the fact that the stuff
that's going on in al Donnie does have my interest,
the stuff going on with Dedra does have my interest,
and it's just that the way that the mon Mathma
stuff comes in again, I understand what it's saying, I
(14:22):
understand why it's there. I understand how long form television works.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
And everything.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
It just it winds up interrupting this specific episode in
such a way that I think it just has the
unfortunate position of being necessary but difficult.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
I guess in the thing though that I don't understand
is like what do you want from it? Like what
I mean if you understand that it's necessary and everything,
Like I'm trying to understand exactly what would make this
work better for you. I again we both agree on
like how the serial stuff like you could probably cut
(14:59):
that out of this episode and not feel like you
miss anything.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
And even prestige long form tell if it's prestige long
form is to the end?
Speaker 4 (15:07):
Does already mentioned is that in the end, Yes, he
has an important moment back as this this this season ends,
but the storyline for him getting there feels so not
worth having followed.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
Probably probably What I'd say is this is that the
mon Mothmas stuff probably could have been put together like
in more of a.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
More of a bubble throughout.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
The episode, like it's it, it's chunked out in a
way you could have condensed it so that it all
occurs closer together. In terms of the actual cutting of everything,
the inter cutting of everything that's I put that there
like that, right, like, instead of having it spread out,
which they do with Cyril here too, where it's like, oh, okay,
(16:00):
you know what if this is a necessary but you know,
not the same sort of like vibe of the other two.
Take it and make it like a chapter break where
it's like I turn my attention over here and I
spend my time over here, and then I turn back
and keep with the other stuff that's going forward.
Speaker 4 (16:15):
Oh yeah, and I I don't agree because I feel
like the vibe of all of the storylines fits in
the sense that this is the this is the percolation
of the storylines, and so every one of them is percolating. Again,
I don't love the serial storyline because I just don't
(16:35):
find it interesting, just like you. But it's like the
Monmathma stuff I do find interesting, And just like what's
happening on Aldani, which is this kind of like things
are at that they're getting close to boiling point, you know,
at the same time that's happening with the ISB stuff
that's also happening within this family, and so all of
(16:57):
that feels like to me, it fits level wise when
I cut in between and so what you're saying is
that you just don't feel that that same vibe shift
or I guess energy shift, Like it feels like that
maybe that storyline's low energy for you and you wanted
it to be feel more in line with the other
(17:19):
energy you're getting for the other storylines. Is that what
I'm hearing?
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Yeah, sort of, But like what I was saying a
minute ago, right, like, take it and instead of putting
pieces throughout the episode, come back and have it all
yeah as a chapter break where it's like I get
my setup, I get my time on all Donnie, I
get maybe a check in with with Dedra, and then
I come back and I spend time with man Mathma
and I'm like, oh, okay, this is all going on
(17:44):
while Donnie's going on and Deezer's doing her thing, and
then I turn my attention back. Keep in mind I'm
leaving Cyril out of this equation completely well.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
And that I in some ways like they kind of
tried to do that. I feel like with the season
three of The Mandalorian, and I felt like it was
terrible because there was that whole episode that they just
all of a sudden, it takes place all the way
over on Courissant and you're like, no, no, no, no, no,
But to me, I guess what. I'm just trying to
(18:15):
point out. I like the inner cutting of the stories
this way more than I do something where things are
more partitioned.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Look, this is this is such quippling. And I know
there's somebody out there shouting at their speakers right now.
So I'm just gonna say again, you can even have
your mom motha stuff in here. No, I within the
context of the specific episode. I'm just saying, keep it
closer to you. I'm not saying go to Chorissant and
break the entire flow of the entire show or the
(18:46):
entire arc.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Or anything like.
Speaker 4 (18:47):
Now I'm saying, I get what you're saying, chapter breaks.
I'm just kind of like, what I'm saying is that
I I don't have a problem with the flow.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
So again, it's it's not it's it's not the flow
I'm talking about, like the the you know what I've
spoken ill yet again of a chapter having to do
with the great Holy writ of Tony Gilroy's.
Speaker 5 (19:13):
And Okay, you're making fun of me, but I'm.
Speaker 4 (19:17):
Like, we we agree obviously on points of this, but
we disagree on other points of the editing of the episode,
and and so.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Don't get don't get me into trouble with like talking
about the editing. I'm just saying it could have been
group closer together. I'm not talking about like swapping this
shot for that shot or trimming a second off.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
But I know what I'm saying is, but that what
we're talking about in the end is the editing of
the episode because it's the way in which they havecro
they have connected the different story points, and so you're
wanting the editing to have the storylines for each different
section be a little bit you know, more condensed together
(20:02):
than kind of spread out throughout the entire episode where
we just kind of.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Just just that specific one, just that specific one, is
what I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
Yes, which I get what you're saying, and I feel
like that would feel even weirder, like if you did that,
it would be like.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
What it does. It doesn't it doesn't need to be
a ten or fifteen minute chunk. I'm saying, you could
have been restructured overall, you know so well.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
I think too that that would be harder for that one,
because really you're that storyline because we don't spend a
ton of time with mont Mathma in this episode, and
so because really it's just snapshots of what's happening in
her life with her family specifically here to que us
in so that you know, anyway, as we get later
(20:50):
we have the context. And so yeah, I'm not you
would have had to actually I think shoot more with
her rather than less to make what you're asking for work.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Possibly, but maybe it would have worked.
Speaker 4 (21:02):
But I know, and so I mean, probably you know
it might have worked better for you, But.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
I know, I know I'm not the only person on
the planet that you know what. Reach out to me
at Matt Rushing zero two on Twitter, yes, and let
me know you know what, you know, whether you agree
with with those of us, because I know there's.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
I mean, you can or you can tell me, you
know at Kessel Junkie why he's wrong and and and
especially if you're read Nicodemus, you can tell him why
he's wrong and why the editing here is actually correct
instead of wrong.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
And so there's there's a there's a big problem here
in that uh, Matt at Kessel Junkie is for the
next forty days not going to be on social media,
So don't bother saying anything to him. In fact, if
you're angry, go to my account at matt Russian zero
two and come after me. Come after me hard, I mean,
(21:55):
cuss me out.
Speaker 4 (21:56):
I see, I see how it is you you give
up this for lent and then throw the shade at me.
I got it. I see how this is working.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
Okay, you know what I'm giving. Like I said at
the beginning, we're givers.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
I'm giving this.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
So I wanted to ask you, though I did want
to go because the whole idea of this manifesto, which
kind of drives this whole thought process of underpinning the
entire thematic elements of this show in general, as to
the reason for rebellion and all of that, I wanted
(22:34):
to ask you about that because to me, I remember
seeing this show for the first time and being very
surprised that we were really going to kind of dig in,
you know, this philosophically, because you know, apart from the
theology of Star Wars with like the force and stuff,
(22:56):
we don't tend to dive in this philosophically. And so
what did you end up thinking of that, especially here
on the rewatch?
Speaker 1 (23:07):
I mean, I think the manifesto stuff is interesting. I
think that.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
The I'm not going to keep the character names you
know throughout, but you know, I thought the character who
who you know who basically has that that conversation with
and Or where it's like, we're too reliant on imperial
technology when you should know how to fix our own stuff,
and this is my manifesto in here.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
That sort of thing, I think it's very interesting.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
The tough thing that I can't get out of my
brain right now is I started to see shades not
because of that character, but because of that interaction where
he starts talking about life in the world and stuff
like that. I suddenly saw, and I don't know if
you you might have seen the same sort of thing,
but there's a very there's a similar vibe to the
(23:56):
crew of the nebuchad Nezer in the Matrix, to this
rebel cell with and Or as Neo, and I like,
for some reason it hit me this time where I
suddenly saw the scene where they're all sitting around the
dinner not dinner but the mess table, and that the
(24:19):
young kid, the idealist in the Matrix is sitting there saying,
you ever notice how it tastes like He's like, everything
tastes like chicken because it couldn't figure out what everything
tasted like, so it just made everything taste like chicken.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
I got a similar vibe to that. That's not a knock.
It's not a knock.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
I'm just saying, like, I saw shades of that, which
was interesting to me.
Speaker 4 (24:40):
Yeah, I had not thought about that, and I do
think that that's an interesting read. I would not have
honestly picked up on that, you know, at rewatching it
this time. The thing that I was really struck by
was the way in which, you know, when he talks
about the idea of the imperial technology and just kind
(25:02):
of being overloaded with thing after thing after thing, you know, uh,
and and how this you know, keeps people from being
able to really recognize what's happening. I find that really
fascinating because, you know, it is an incredibly because the
(25:24):
conversation is not long, but it's an incredibly astute discussion
of where we are in society, right and and and
the ways in which, uh, you know, even our own
politics can create this difficulty for people to follow. Basically,
(25:49):
we are entertaining ourselves to death, you know, by being
lulled to sleep with with technology. Uh and and that's
the interesting thing that I kind of find about this discussion,
and so and I like that because it again it's
it's just subtle enough. And it's also I think fits
(26:14):
so well in line with just the way in which
George kind of created Star Wars, which is not to
be so tied into just one time frame, but to
feel very applicable that, you know, when you could watch
the show in thirty years and have a completely different
perspective as to what this characters talking up about, but
(26:37):
at the same time still feel like he's talking to you,
which I really appreciate about the writing here.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
I think it's very I think you're you're spot on.
They're obviously making a comment about how, you know, our
obsession with technological convenience keeps us slaves to those that
wish to control us. Absolutely, that is an eternal, universal theme,
just like the themes that mister Lucas put in there,
(27:05):
and it's the right note to hit. I would love
to have had a moment, and this is not I'm
not knocking the episode, but I would have also loved
a character to counterpoint him strongly saying well, it's because
life got convenient that we were able to distract ourselves
(27:27):
with conveniences people missed out on previous terrible instances regimes, kings, dictatorships,
one of the forms of government, or because the struggle
to survive was so pronounced that they didn't have time
to consider swapping out the rule because they were scrabbling.
(27:52):
And so I think that becomes an even that becomes
an equally interesting thread for them to have pursued to
have a character A. Yes, that's that's contributing to it now.
But no matter the time period that Palpatine takes over,
there's gonna be something that's going to keep the majority
(28:13):
of the population distracted from what's going on, because they're
all going to have to say. I can't exactly what
Luke says. He's working hard on the farm. He's out
in the middle of nowhere. He only has his aunt
and uncle with him. His friends treat him like an outcast.
Biggs just left and he's you know, and he's like,
you know, the empire so far away from here. You know,
(28:35):
what am I going to do about this? This is
I live here, this is what I do. It's that
Luke's caught in the same trap without that same sort
of underpinning of living in Coruscant or something like that.
Speaker 4 (28:47):
It is, so what you're saying is I can't walk.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Out because you love Palpatine too much.
Speaker 4 (28:55):
Baby, too much baby anyway.
Speaker 5 (29:01):
Yeah, God, restant, No, I do think you're you're you're
writing at and and uh, the other part of the episode,
which which stands out to me because we don't spend
a time with time with luth In here, but the
conversation that we end up having with him.
Speaker 4 (29:19):
About the way in which they have reached the point
where big risks have to be taken and and and
in fact you know that they're they're these risks that
could put all that they've been working for so far
(29:41):
in jeopardy. But but they're getting to that tipping point
where where it's like we do this now or maybe
nothing ever happens. And and so I wanted to ask
you about that because I just found that to be
another place where the episode, uh, it just feels like
(30:02):
we're ratcheting up the tension so that as the payoff
comes in the next episode, it's like we truly understand
just everything's at stake and how everything is just on
that knife's edge, you know, and if we stray, just
as Glady Real would say in The Lord of Rings,
you know, if you stray just a little bit, we're
(30:24):
done for. And so what did you think about that? No?
Speaker 3 (30:31):
I I think that it does a brilliant job of
setting the stakes. Why do I care so much about
this heist? Why is this not just another thing? And
it's because if this thing doesn't happen, everything, like you said,
everything's writing on it.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
It has to happen.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
If it doesn't happen, everything is lost outside of even
just and Or's life. And it's like that immediately communicates
to the audience how important this is. And why even
if I have any sort of you know, quibbles with
the show here or there, it's at least given me
(31:12):
that nice, big shiny object to look at it and say, yeah,
but I want to find out how this turns out,
because I've been told in other shows at other times
this has to happen. Everything's going to fall apart. And
then it falls apart, and that they pulled the rug
pull are they serious it would fall apart? If it's
like Luke at the beginning of Return of the Jedi.
(31:36):
When you first encounter him, he's in shadow, he's dressed
in black, and the first movie does is what Vader does,
which is choke people and people because we've seen Return
of the Jedi so many times, we forget that that's
a conscious decision to come in and have you reminded
very quickly, Luke can still go to the dark side. Yeah,
this is not a done deal. He's not necessarily the hero.
(31:59):
And I think that is in that same sort of
vein of oh, I got to at least know how
this pans out well.
Speaker 4 (32:07):
And and I like that you said that too, because
you know, one of the interesting parts about this this episode,
uh is that you know and Or uh gets kind
of found out by you know, Skin uh pushing him
to give him the reason why he's actually there.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (32:25):
And you know, we find out the reason that he's there,
which we all know, which is for the money that
you know, for him, this rebellion is not a rebellion.
It's just trying to find a way to get out
and get away to uh, you know, to be able
to save you know, his his adopted mother, you know,
(32:49):
and his own skin. And so I what what's what's
great here. You know too, is is that when you
think about in real one where he talks about you know,
I've been in this fight since I was six years old.
This fight for him has just taken on so many
different iterations.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
You know.
Speaker 4 (33:12):
You get him being the kid on on what's the
name of his planet, You get to him being a
kid on the planet of Canari right where where uh
the the Republic is responsible for some sort of mining
(33:32):
guild coming in and basically strip unting his planet, killing
his parents and leaving an orphan with his sister, and
then having them get separated, and then just to slowly
watch him go from being a guy like in some
ways like this is the more gritty version of what
happens to Han Solo, right, you know, from going from
being a guy who's only out for himself to being
(33:55):
the guy who's in this for some thing much bigger.
And I find that to be incredibly fascinating to take
that more gritty approach than to following his story. And
it's one of the things I just kind of really
love about the series and the show, and it's one
of the reasons that I think, you know, even though
(34:16):
this episode is the middle of a trilogy of episodes.
It's like it sets up everything so well for just
the character stuff, so that you know, when you get
to the next one, we can do all the action
and then also have the suspense of like this has
to pay off or we're really in trouble.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
So, I mean, given all of that on the star
rating scale, do you give this a five twelve?
Speaker 1 (34:44):
No?
Speaker 4 (34:44):
I mean this this episode, as much as I do
enjoy it, you know, I think this is the type.
This is the episode and the season where it's probably
three point seven five corsant puffs out of five because
there's a lot that I really like here, but the
(35:06):
serial storyline does kind of just break up. I think
what for me, The rest of the flow of the
episode was fantastic. It's like if I had excised him
in some ways, I'd feel great. You know, I almost
feel like he's the character here. You know, we didn't
even talk about you know, de dra and her storyline,
which but again, you cut him out, like you could
(35:29):
have not had him in this episode at all, or
even maybe the next episode, it seems like, and then
not revisited his story until possibly the next trilogy of episodes,
and I would.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Have been just fine with that until they get back
to fair Yeah.
Speaker 4 (35:46):
Something like that.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
You know, I don't know. Listen.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
And the thing is, I feel bad for the actor
playing it. No, he's he does a find job what
he's being tasked to do. I agree, there's a aramy
that wants to give this a three, but I wind
up giving it like a three five.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
Cause wow, we're not even that far off the.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Performance by the actor who plays But it's all strictly
the actor who plays scheme so good and he is phenomenal,
and so this entire entire episode gets elevated strictly because
of him. Overall, it's a three with him. I'm giving
(36:28):
it some extra love because I enjoyed his performance so
damn much, especially how effortlessly he inhabits somebody who's a
cynic but not ragey. Right, he doesn't have a chip
(36:49):
on his shoulder about it. He's he's this this very cool,
pragmatic type of rebellious where it's like, you know, I've
lost everything, anyway, screw it, I might as well try
to take some some of these a holes out with me, yeah,
and make an impact. And adding in that he's a
war veteran basically you know, like that that's some great,
(37:12):
great acting going on there and an interesting character.
Speaker 4 (37:14):
Well, and I want to touch on that too real
quick is because what you just said about him and
his acting, like that's I think the thing that's really
fascinating about this show is that even even the character
we don't like, like, all the performances in this show
so far are just top notch, right, None of it
(37:35):
is necessarily the actor's fault. I feel like for not
pulling off the storyline, you know, any any fault there,
I kind of lay it like, you know, I feel
like Gilroy and his brother could have found a better
way to integrate that serial storyline. But it's like, yeah,
I mean the way he's playing it, he creates this
character this is just kind of somewhat creepy, somewhat just
(37:58):
like almost seemingly aloof and disturbed. And that is kind
of interesting because that's a that it's kind of a
fascinating thing to turn somebody into some sort of fanatic, right,
which is.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Kind of where we go with the character.
Speaker 4 (38:13):
And so all of that is you're absolutely you know,
the guy playing scheme is just the tip of the
iceberg for this This episode of how well everybody is
doing performance wise, which is I think a real hallmark
of this show is that, man, it feels like just
(38:34):
everybody brings their a game the whole time, which is
which is wonderful because even in the episodes you don't love,
I find myself kind of engrossed just by the performances themselves.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
I think a lot of it has to do with
Diego Luna. Yes, I agree, the producer he Yeah, it's
just like you and McGregor, Like, you can tell how
much love is being put into it. That this actor
is here and he's so there, that's he's involved at
a higher level. Yes, he needs to be there and
(39:08):
part of this, and he's injecting that passion he has
for it into it. Whatever problems I might have with
the Obi Wan show, I could tell that McGregor cared
deeply about telling this story the best way that he
possibly could.
Speaker 4 (39:22):
Yeah, and he showed up and every moment I've ever seen. Yeah,
And which was really because you know, he's the focal.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Point of that.
Speaker 4 (39:31):
But no, no, I agree. I think you're absolutely right.
In some ways, I think these shows are kind of
best win. The lead of the show is completely sold
out to the show. I actually think it's one of
the reasons why, even though season three of The Mandalorian
(39:51):
was not its best season, when you had Katie Sakoff
on the show and she had so much more lead
time in that season, it's great because she truly is
the same way. She very much cares about this character
and making sure that it's right and getting it right.
You know, tomorrow Morrison even book a boafit same way
(40:13):
he really cares, I think about getting it right. And
so you know, any other faults aren't on the main person.
Speaker 3 (40:21):
And so yeah, I'm not going to hold him accountable
for that speeder chase. No, that's not on him.
Speaker 4 (40:28):
That is definitely an editing problem.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
On that we can agree. So where else can people
agree with you?
Speaker 4 (40:35):
Well, they can find me out there that Matt Rushing
zero two all over social media. So if I'm on
that platform, search for that name, you'll find me. I
would love to talk to you. Of course, you'll find
me here on the network with the completed show called
outposts about every single chapter of the Harry Potter series.
You can find me over on the TFM network with
a bunch of shows. One is the six oh two Club.
(40:58):
That is a show where we talk about all of
the fandoms that we love, not just one. John's a
frequent guest over there. We have a great time, so
hope you'll check that out. And then I do a
lot of great Star Trek talk over there with Christopher Jones,
as we're doing a bunch of anniversary rewatches for things
like Star Trek Voyager, Star Trek Enterprise and Start Trek
Deep Phase nine, so make sure that you check those
(41:18):
out as well. But John, if people don't want to
catch up with you on social media because you're off
for lent, where would they find you?
Speaker 1 (41:27):
You know what?
Speaker 3 (41:28):
I'm going to try my best to stay in communication
with the world in some way over on my blog
Casseljunkie dot com. But typically you can find Castle Junkie
out there on your social network of choice, although there's
so many of them now that I don't belong everywhere. Yes, yes,
very few outlets anymore. But you can also find me
(41:50):
right here on the network, co hosting a show called
house Lights where we look at the work of film directors.
I know, groundbreaking movie podcast. What pardon me, we're blazing
trails over there, but it is a lot of fun.
I highly recommend you to Hey, hey, oh, don't even
get me started about the disappointment of discussing Blazing Saddles
(42:11):
with somebody that doesn't love that movie, because I just
don't get the world sometimes. But what I do get
is this, uh, this message on my Jeta communicator saying
it's time to head back to the temple. So Master Rushing,
I think it's time we close these negotiations John Negotiations
and Mark
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Lars join the Revolution, join the Nerd Party.
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