March 18, 2025 • 37 mins
Andor: Season One - The Eye.
As Andor Season 2 approaches, Matt and John continue their StarWars: Andor Season 1 rewatch to discuss their opinions of the sixth episode, “The Eye.” The conclusion of the second 3-episode arc, does it deliver on the promise of a great heist moment…or prove to be a dud of mismatched storylines?
Host
John Mills and Matthew Rushing
Love listening to Aggressive Negotiations, a Star Wars podcast that’s different from all the rest? Then you’ll love The Nerd Party, a one-of-a-kind podcast network focused on all the best of Star Trek, the magical realm of the Harry Potter books, the works of the best film directors in history, the latest from international film and comic stars, and so much more!
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As Andor Season 2 approaches, Matt and John continue their StarWars: Andor Season 1 rewatch to discuss their opinions of the sixth episode, “The Eye.” The conclusion of the second 3-episode arc, does it deliver on the promise of a great heist moment…or prove to be a dud of mismatched storylines?
Host
John Mills and Matthew Rushing
Love listening to Aggressive Negotiations, a Star Wars podcast that’s different from all the rest? Then you’ll love The Nerd Party, a one-of-a-kind podcast network focused on all the best of Star Trek, the magical realm of the Harry Potter books, the works of the best film directors in history, the latest from international film and comic stars, and so much more!
Send us your feedback!
Twitter: @TheJediMasters
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheNerdParty/
Email: http://www.thenerdparty.com/contact
Subscribe in Apple Podcasts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the ned Palty.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hi.
Speaker 3 (00:06):
This is Nick and Astasu, story editor on Star Wars,
the Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch, and you
are listening to Aggressive negotiations.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Hello, and welcome to Aggressive Negotiations. That's right, that slice
of Star Wars Heaven that you know you just can't
get enough of, and coming at you again live from Aldawnie.
Let's just say the fireworks are about to begin, and
I am just one of your hosts, Matthew Rushing and
(00:45):
with me as he is every single episode, the one
the only curmudgeonly, yes, curmudgeoned Jedi Master John Mills Well
apparently doesn't like or good shows.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
He does like trolling you, though, because it's an incredibly
easy thing to do, and it is. You know, honestly,
it's not easy, but I mean it's feasible, it's it possible.
It was considered to be one of my Jedi trials,
but then I proved how easily I could do it,
and Yoda was like, oh, do something harder, you must.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
And here we are, man oh man, Well we're excited
to be here. Of course, before we get started, you
could always find what we're doing here all over the
place on social media. We're at the Jedi Masters on
ex Twitter as well as the entire as well as
the entire network at Join the nerd Party. We're on
(01:46):
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really appreciate that. It really actually helps the show grow.
And if you like our podcast.
Speaker 5 (02:01):
You know, maybe share it with friend, be like, hey,
do you like Star wars Man and I've got the
podcast for you. You need to be listening to aggressive negotiations,
do stuff like that. Word of mouth is the best
way to grow a podcast. And last, but not least,
just thank you for listening. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
So John, this season of and Or, you know, we
have been building two different parts of the story arc,
and of course this is kind of the closing bit
for this heist that we have on al Donnie with
the episode The Eye, and so first and foremost, I
(02:38):
just wanted to get your just kind of general oppressions
of this episode as we kind of bring this part
of the arc to a close.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
Well, that feels like I'm giving away too much of
the beginning. I mean, I want people to stick around
for the end of the conversation as well. Obviously, Matt,
It's true. That's that's the thing that makes sense. I
went into this episode everybody knows. Everybody, come on, tell
me you listen to the last two episodes. You know
where I was. You know that I really enjoyed the
(03:05):
fourth one, felt there were opportunities for improvement in the
second one. Matt and I felt strangely similar about the
the the you know, the second part of this arc,
and like we we wound up in very similar places.
It's just I came at it from a different angle,
you know, you know which we do, we do it happens. Yeah,
(03:28):
So basically I came into this one hopeful because I
was like, I remember liking this episode, but I also
remembered that there were certain points where I was like,
it felt like it could have just been quicker at
the end. So I was curious to see if my
opinion stayed there, because we all know, I'm I've been
(03:48):
really sort of hard on the pacing of the episodes,
and you know, I also couldn't remember if we spent
too much time with Cyril Cyril, Cyril Cereal.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Yeah, and thankfully he's he's not even in this episode,
so yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
Strangely, it seems to be to the episode's benefit that
he wasn't, because the absence of Cyril immediately made the
episode better in my opinion. I was like, oh, I agree,
I'm not agreeing over to Cyril. Agreece is acceptable to me.
I will meet this episode on its own terms.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Therefore, Well, so I do want to add so that's
a great thing, you know, so you don't end up
giving too much away here, But I did want to
ask you because this episode is incredibly focused, uh, in
the sense that we spend almost the entire episode on Aldanni,
and we are, you know, making everything finally happen, right,
(04:47):
All that they've been planning for in the last couple
of episodes comes to fruition here. We're not going to
leave you waiting anymore. And we're also, like I said,
we're not going to spend time in other places until Bill.
Basically the climax of this major event, this major heist,
this first incredible movement of the rebellion hits and once
(05:12):
that finally happens, then will kind of split over to
like mon Mathma and Luthen and get their kind of
reactions as they hear this thing that they've been waiting
to hear has actually happened. And so, how did you
feel like that then worked for the episode, because I
know you've been kind of frustrated, as you mentioned, with
some of the editing choices, where we've kind of been
(05:34):
bouncing around, and this episode, you know, that's one of
the things that doesn't do. It does not bounce around.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
It doesn't It's very focused, and I think that it
really is to the director is Susannah White here, and
I think that she really brings that that focus that
I've been looking for. We all know that I've a
weak thing about sequels, and I blame George Lucas for
this and Steven Spielberg. No, seriously, because if you look
(06:03):
at the Star Wars movies, the first six, and you
look at the Indiana Jones movies, you don't have to
have seen one that came before to get totally what's
going on. You know, I'm big about that I should
be able to plug.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
It up at any very much about.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
That, and this episode absolutely passes that test. Suzannah White
takes the script and the script is very focused. But additionally,
this is a show like this is an episode where
it's like, we are not going to mess around with
what we need to show you, and everything is firing
(06:38):
here from the get go toward that one goal, that
ending goal. And I think that especially one of the
things that it allows it to do that's really to
its benefit is it gives the actor's name is Stanley Townsend,
who plays the commandant. Oh yeah, yeah, that character, the
(07:01):
direction and the way that he has worked into the
story is beyond exactly right. And that is the little
nudge for this episode. And that's what everybody on the
crew deserves credit for cast hand crew is Stanley Townsend
is given the opportunity to be that sort of an inept,
(07:22):
bureaucratic evil that exists in a system like this. Yeah,
you can tell that had it been the Republic, had
it been the New Republic, had it been the Empire,
had it been the yujenn Vong in charge, had it
been anybody in charge, this guy was simply this is
his job. This is what he's going to do. He
doesn't like it anymore than anybody else, but this is
(07:42):
the system. He's just he's there, right, I'm just doing
my job. Like he's he's not a cruel person. He's
a guy who's just like, look, this is just the
way the world is. This is what I'm going to do.
And it really illustrates everything that I think Lucas himself
would have been big about, which is the banaloe of evil,
that it's easy to exist in a system where you
(08:05):
don't think too deeply about what's going on. Sure, and
this is my job, this is what I do. You
know what. I didn't do anything bad to the chieftain.
I don't like him. I'm talking bad about him behind
closed doors, but I'm not mean to his face. I
do what I'm supposed to do. That's fine, that's enough,
you know, And it's just it's really I think that
the focus is what allows the episode to bring that
(08:28):
to the forefront. Yeah, I was.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
I'm glad you brought that up, because I think that
he really is kind of a winchpin character for this series,
and part.
Speaker 5 (08:42):
Of that.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Is because of the way in which he brings into
focus the very thing that they are fighting against, right
which is, like you said, it's not people who are
avert evil in the sense that they are you know,
they're they're just willing and ready to kind of like
(09:08):
murder everybody in their path.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
Right.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
This is the type of person who has such a
superiority complex about everybody being less than him. He looks
down on these people, right, he, like you said, he's
making fun of them. He sees himself as being superior
to them in every single way, and so do all
(09:32):
of the other officers there. Every single one of them
looks on these people and just thinks they're kind of backwater,
worthless people. To me, that's that. I'm so glad that
you brought that up, because it is that type of
evil where because of the way in which Palpatine runs
(09:55):
the empire, it encourages people to act like this, right,
which is to get yours and in doing so, you
are willing to just step over anyone and step on
anyone to get what you want, right. I mean, his
whole goal is to get off this backwater planet because
(10:17):
he doesn't feel appreciated enough, right, And that's even what
he you know. And then he treats his wife and
his son kind of the same way he treats everybody else,
and then he makes them feel bad for saying when
he's like don't you want off this planet? You know,
like it's like you said, it's it's so well performed
because he does it so effortlessly that it just kind
(10:41):
of makes your skin crawl when as you're watching him.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
But at the same time you get the opportunity to
see him as again, he's a guy who just doesn't
think about it. No, he doesn't focus, He just thinks
about himself. Yes, but that's exactly the trap that everybody
in the everyday world falls into. My career, my advancement,
the system doesn't work. Who cares. I'm just gonna get mine.
(11:04):
All I can do is control what's in the world
around me to an extent, that is all you can control.
But then you don't think about the atrocity of the
company you're working for, that praise on the innocent, or
the chemical waste of the plant that you work at,
(11:25):
because what are you going to do about it. You're
gonna go up to your boss and get fired, or
in the case of a guy in the empire, you're
gonna get shot, You're gonna lose your position. Yes, that
is exactly how a system supports itself. And you know
it's easy to run off and criticize any system like that.
But we know what's powering the empire. We know that
(11:45):
basically Satan himself is at the top of this chain.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Yeah, exactly exactly.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
But this guy isn't thinking about that. He's not, he doesn't.
He's never going to meet the Emperor. He doesn't know
what's going on. Nope, he doesn't care. He just wants
to get off.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
And the thing is, it creates a really thoughtful piece
to the episode, up to and including the point where
the guy suddenly realizes that his trusted lieutenant has betrayed
him and he has a heart attack. It's just it's
it's too much for him because this is just not
(12:22):
what he signed up for. He didn't ye, he didn't
commit the specific a trial. The system did it. What
am I going to do about it? And the thing is,
there's an interesting contrast because Richard Katz, who plays the colonel,
he is the guy who is all like. He does
(12:42):
a really good job of subtly playing the guy who
is all in on it, who gets it like. It's
hard to describe because he doesn't have a lot of
screen time, but the fact that he pulls the gun
he's in on hi yah, right. The Commandant's like, I
just hey, guys, leave me alone. I don't know what
I'm doing here, you know, I just work here. What
(13:04):
are you doing? The colonel is the one that's like,
I'll kill all of you, even though he knows it's
dumb to try to pull that gun. It's the idiots
maneuver right there. And so yeah, I mean I think
that is, in all honesty, what elevates the episode. It's
very easy for people to say, oh, well, the I
or the chieftain played great by David Hayman, you know,
(13:28):
the chieftain is what elevates it, or the effects or
the escape or the heist or anything like that. No,
it's these two characters are what elevates this episode.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Well in talking about them, and I'm so glad that
you kind of like keyed in to them in this
part of the episode, because the thing I was really
really struck by was the conversation that the commandant and
he are having, and the commandant and this engineer who
are visiting, and he's describing the way in which they
(13:59):
are slowly and methodically taking away everything from these people
without them even realizing that it's happening.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
To them, right, And.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
What it showed me is the way in which the
Empire has slowly but surely been taking away people's desire
for religion and replacing it with dependence on the state.
Speaker 4 (14:26):
Yes, exactly, right, terrifying.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Absolutely terrifying. I mean, And what I find to be
so incredible about this is that you think about the
depth here then that Lucas's universe is allowing these writers
to be able to talk about here. It's something that
(14:48):
we've seen play out, I mean, and Gilroy talked about
this in a recent interview, you know, He's like, look,
I don't want this show to be something that anybody goes, Oh,
so that's this in our current political world. He's like,
I'm rooting this in massive historical movements from history, you know,
(15:13):
from ancient history, the same way that Lucas was right exactly.
But when you think about that idea, right, is that
in our most in the most recent history that we've seen,
what are the countries that have done this? They have
tried to remove everything from a person but complete dependence
(15:34):
on the state. And it's kind of a terrifying thing.
And so I absolutely love that that is what this
episode is doing. I think it's incredibly smart. The beauty
of that, though, was that I was realizing that this
episode was that then microcosm of the macro that's been
happening now for what this is almost fifteen years of
(15:58):
the Empire, and this has been their modus operandi in
every single planet.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
But the important thing to remember is that the Republic
put all of this machinery in place. It's just the
Emperor knew how to use it. He spent all that
time as Supreme Chancellor. Understand he understood the system, he
knew how to manipulate it, and he knew also how
to pass rules, regulations, laws, what have you. That made
it so that he could leverage it even more. And
(16:24):
I think that this is what this is what winds
up being frustrating in this sense. I'm not being a
negative Nelly here, but this is the sort of thing
where if I had enjoyed that first three episode arc more,
I know they were going for tying it together, where
it's like the Republic was full of a bunch of
bad operators as well, people who were of similar ilk
(16:46):
to this commandant and this kernel. They're they're not unique,
it's just a different system. They're the same guys. Though,
when whenever you get a large enough system in place,
people like this are there and it's it's I'm going
to mangle it. I forget who it was that said
(17:07):
it specifically, but it was one of the founders founding
Fathers quote unquote of America and it was a system
is only as good as the people that are in it,
or something like that. And the thing is it underlines
that people get caught up debating the systems, but it's
(17:28):
really the people inside them that make it tolerable or intolerable.
And I know I have enough of a memory of
the next arc to know that that really gets underlined
in how insidious it really is. Yes, the way that
the system gets leveraged by people who want to manipulate
(17:49):
it or want to go on a power trip.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
And is this system really any different than the Republic?
How is it different than the Republic? I think that's
a fascinating sort of thing to study and look at,
and that gets that timelessness as well well.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
And and I think you can see the manipulation of
the system in the sense of creating you know, the
Republic begins as a representational government for planets, to send
representatives to so they're representing actual people, right. Uh. You know,
(18:28):
the then the big change then comes in in this
system is when you allow then corporations to be represented.
They don't represent people, they're representing a business. And so
you're tying like this idea of of the state and
business in a way that is obviously incredibly dangerous. And
(18:53):
and so I think that's also a real key uh
that we get here. And and so yeah, I mean
I think you know, your point is really well made
in the sense that the Emperor rights has just utilized
all the things that were already in place, and he
(19:15):
has just continued to tweak them further and further to
his advantage.
Speaker 4 (19:21):
Well, the thing that's really great is you and I
we spent nearly four hundred episodes by this point talking.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
About Star Wars Hard, which is crazy.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
Where did the time go? But we're sitting here, we're
talking about this, and what's fascinating is is this is
one of those moments in Star Wars, this episode in particular,
that's great because the Emperor really doesn't he doesn't care
about the particulars here. The Emperor himself is not directing
(19:51):
wipe out the Aldani. It just creates more evil and
sadness in the galaxy, which feeds the dark side. Cool, right,
He's not sitting there. He doesn't have to direct it
to happen. It's just what happens feeds the dark side,
gives more power, gives more opportunity for him to worry
(20:12):
about the things that he really does worry about. Cheating death,
living forever, exerting his will on everything. That's all he
cares about. Now that those are big things to care about.
And he's a bad dude, but he's not a micromanager.
And that's the horrifying thing is he doesn't need to micromanage.
(20:35):
But yep. Conversely, what I want to ask you is,
we know that a lot of this is payoff of
the build up from the previous two episodes. We've got
our big heist episode. Is there anything about this episode
that doesn't work for you? What does not work for you?
(20:56):
What could have been tightened up, what could have been removed,
what could have been reorganized? What doesn't work for you here?
Speaker 2 (21:03):
I mean not not to just be the fanboy, but
I I don't really think there's anything that doesn't work
for me here. And a big part of that is
is what we've kind of talked about in the sense
that what makes this truly an interesting episode is that,
you know, we didn't just focus on on the heist
(21:29):
and uh and and and those machinations. What we focused on,
which made it even more interesting, was these imperial officers
and their attitude towards these people, which clues us in
to the very thing to which you know, as as
(21:51):
we talked about in the last episode, you know, we
get this this idea that everybody has their own rebellion
and they're all fighting the rebellion for different reasons. And
in that, you know, we've seen this kind of growing
sense then in different characters, specifically the character of and
Or right like this this whole show is about building
(22:14):
him into the character that we will see in Rogue one.
And so what is it about his experience that's going
to lead him to want to join this rebellion? And
I think those experiences, even though he doesn't get, you know,
a first hand view of what happened don Ald Donnie
(22:35):
in the sense of the way that the Empire is
treating these people, he's very well aware of that's what's
happening to these people. Because that's what happened to him
in his planet, right, right, And so again I think
what they do is that they kind of help continue
to drive home the point that they were making in
(22:57):
those first few episodes with with and or in his
time on Knari, And so I I don't I don't know. Again,
I really just can't think of anything that didn't work
for me, because you know, as we've you know, and
I know you had frustration with you know, some of
(23:20):
the pacing and some of that stuff with with these
episodes and felt like we could have been tighter here,
you know, But this just I mean, this kind of
I feel like the story, they know exactly what they
wanted to do, they knew exactly what needed to happen
in this episode, and then they just do it and
(23:41):
there isn't any extraneous material. And so I don't know,
do was there anything that you like? Because you can
be more critical on that on that side, was there
anything that didn't work for you?
Speaker 4 (23:52):
I'm going to talk about two things really real quick.
I don't want to belabor any points here and it's
not going to go the way everybody thing's here in
the audience. Sorry, So just just settle down, put your
pitch fork.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
So you're saying, this is okay, Okay, this isn't this
isn't the last Jedi.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
Okay. I was just making sure anyway. Two things. One
is a thing where I wound up like strangely in
my brain praising it for the fact that it would
have been so easy. And this is such a maybe
(24:31):
it's a weird thing. But when Vell and kaz Or
Santa Stay are in their little rock hideout and the
troopers come walking by, and one of the troopers stops
to take a leak near them, this is where I'll
give the director. I don't know how the script was,
but you know, writing and directing go hand in hand.
(24:53):
But Susannah White, it would have been so easy for
a director to make it disgusting and have him relieve
himself in such a way that it like we see
it leak on one of them and they have to
be quiet. I applaud the show for not going down
that route. It would have been so easy. There are
so many shows that would have indulged that disgusting nature.
(25:16):
Are glad. Number two the thing that I that I
struggled with a little bit at the end. Both times.
But I think I've come to a place where I'm
okay with it, and I get it is Skeen finding
out Skeen's actually a schev as opposed to a skin
and and Or shoots him. And where I come to
(25:39):
it with and I want to get your thoughts on
it as we wrap up, right, is I want to
get your thoughts on it as we wrap up. Is
that it's important for him to suddenly reveal himself to
be an untrustworthy character because and Or Cassian, reacting as
(26:03):
quickly and decisively as he does to shoot him, demonstrates
that he has a limit to his a morality that
he is, He's less a moral than he'd like to
tell himself. There's still a code of honor for him.
(26:26):
And while it's unsettling that he shoots Skein the way
that he does, it is absolutely necessary. He's the guy
that's sitting there. He knows he can't talk Skeen out
of it. He knows that if he doesn't move, then
Skein's going to shoot him. Yeah, and so Cassian shot
first to tap into another third rail in Star Wars discussion. Yes,
(26:51):
and that's sort of where I come to is like,
I think it's actually a nice character building moment for
Cassian because he is we established there's a limit to
how far he'll go. Now, does he violate that in
Rogue one? Therefore, I don't.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Well, so I was gonna I was gonna ask you
that question because I know that in Rogue one, one
of the things that you kind of have an issue
with is that moment where he shoots the guy at
the beginning, right, and this was a way to reinforce that.
And Or, like you said, is less a moral than
(27:29):
he would like to hope he could be, because you know,
he doesn't want to really care about anybody, but he
can't help himself, which is in some ways it's like
the more gritty version of the Han solo arc. Yeah,
and yet at the same time too, what I think
that this does is that shows us and Or's predilection
(27:52):
for making sure that the mission goes forth with whatever
means necessary. And if it means that I do need
to kill somebody who's going to get in the way
of that or jeopardize that mission, I'm gonna have to
be okay with that, Which is then you know, when
he gives the speech to to jin about like you
(28:15):
have no idea what I've given for this, which is
what also plays into a very important speech we will
get at the at the end of season one that
comes from Luthen as well. And so what we're doing
here is we're building this character who, much like Luthan,
is going to be somebody who is willing to sacrifice
(28:39):
his own self.
Speaker 4 (28:42):
For this.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
And and that's where I kind of come down on
that scene with with Skin is that it's kind of
reinforcing a character trait that he's just going to continue
to build, but that that character trait is going to
be one to which he utilizes for I guess you
could call it, for lack of a better term, really
(29:03):
the greater good.
Speaker 4 (29:05):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
So I don't know if that if that it makes
sense at.
Speaker 4 (29:10):
All or yeah, I you know, I I totally plug
into what you're saying, Like I think that there there
is truth to that, specifically because he is in a
position at the end of the episode to take everything
and instead he says, I just I just want what
you promised me and then I'm out and I'm not
(29:32):
gonna I'm not gonna take you for all, you know,
having much money at what eighty million, not gonna do
that to you? Totally fine, just give me what I'm
owed and a ship. And he even he's gonna pay
the doctor for his ship. He's like, I'll pay you
more than that. It's even worth. So yeah, it's it's
I think it winds up being a nice thing. I
(29:52):
I felt a little cheated at first. I remember the
first time I saw it, I was like, oh, why'd
you do that? That that that character having that twist
at the end of the episode. I didn't care for it.
I was like, that felt forced. But then I realized
that it did serve the larger character arc, So I'm
okay with it. And I think that that is sort
(30:14):
of the thing that I had the biggest problem with
the first time. Sure I did not, and I know
it's the nature of it, but maybe it's more about
the fact that I wind up caring about the character.
But the fact that they decided to kill the idealist
caris what was his name, The fact that they decided
(30:37):
to have him killed in such a cheap way it
bothered me. I didn't like it. I would have liked
to see that kid survive. To the point where Cassian
shoots Skeme, and then the kid can say something as
he's walking out the doors. Like I knew it. I
know that there's you know, like it just it felt
(30:59):
like killing both Scheme and Keris was unnecessary to have
him both. I I I get it. I know it's
the nature of the beast, but you know, I just
I just wish they hadn't knocked him off, knocked off
both of them.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I can one hundred percent understand
what you're saying, And mainly because I agree with you,
I really enjoy that character. I think, you know, he's
a really interesting character.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
And it's more interesting than Cyril.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Yes, And I think part of that is is that
you know, what he drives at is is just this
this idea of the philosophy of rebellion and really digging
into that is incredibly interesting to me. And I agree,
I wish we had, you know, more of it. I
(31:56):
think it would just be nice if if he got
more of a chance to kind of help expound on
on these ideas. And yet, you know, his death is
and I think you even mentioned this idea, right, his
(32:16):
death is one of the things that's going to I
think affect and or right, especially when you know he's
handed the manifesto and he's forced to take it. He
doesn't want it, and yet Kars knows that if it
(32:37):
sits with him long enough, he's not going to be
able to sit this out forever. And and and so
you know, I love that moment. I think it's uh,
like you said, it's it's it's what makes his death
so ridiculously bittersweet in the episode, because you really like
(33:01):
this character. And yet you know, I also just love
the way in which then fell is like, no, you
take this. He wanted you to have it, he insisted,
and so if you're gonna leave, you've got to take
this with you too. And so yeah, I mean it's
(33:23):
one of those things too. It sounds like then for
you this might be Is this your favorite episode of
the series so far?
Speaker 4 (33:34):
Probably yeah, I'd say that. I'd say that's safe. Yeah,
this is my favorite one of the series so far.
I think that great direction, well written, and even the
cherryo at the cherry on top for me is getting
to see the galactic Senate again and see how the
senators don't really care what's going on. I'm like, oh yeay,
(33:57):
I love this chamber. But like I said, I've always
been a geek for the the political stuff. But I
do like the fact that it ends with Luthen excusing
himself to the back where he can laugh yeah and
and just be happy about what happened. I think that
that's the little cherry on the episode that that works
(34:20):
really well. So hands down my favorite. Is it your
favorite episode so far the season?
Speaker 2 (34:25):
I think absolutely, And and that's not because and this
is not a detriment to any of the other episodes
I think in the in the season. I think, honestly,
you know, for me, unlike you, this has been a
great season of a show so far, you know, I've
really enjoyed I think. I think what this became though,
(34:48):
is that this episode just and and part of this too.
Speaker 4 (34:51):
Right.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
It's like this episode here is really the culmination of
the whole first six episodes, right, and so it's almost
like a mid season finale, and they really I think,
nail it, right. I think they they just make you like,
(35:12):
they bring home everything that they were doing and it
it feels incredibly fulfilling.
Speaker 4 (35:21):
Right.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
I get to the end of this episode and it's like, oh,
this is what we've been doing the whole time. This
is where we've been building through it, and so I
really like that, and I'm glad that, you know, it
worked for both of us, and and I'm you know,
I'm hopeful then that as we move forward, that'll just
(35:42):
continue to happen for both of us. But John, if
you know, people wanted to catch up with you and
see what else got going on and maybe even just
talk a little bit about and or here and and
you know their thoughts on things, where would they find you?
Speaker 4 (35:59):
Well, you know, for the time being, when we're recording
this episode, I'm taking a break from social media, so
you can find me a kessel Junki dot com tossing
stuff around. Would be fun. Go look through the archives.
I probably said something controversial in the past. Knock yourself out,
look for it. Try to take me offline. I invite it.
I don't care. You can also find me here on
the network co hosting a show called house Lights with
(36:22):
Tristan Riddell and Darren Moser, where we look at the
work of directors we have. We have a time. It's
a lot of fun. Recommend you go check it out.
But I also spend some time over on the TFM
Network on a little show called The six oh two Club.
Every so often I do a pull a guest spot
over there. It's the birthplace of aggressive negotiations technically, and Matt,
(36:44):
I think that's where people can finde you. So where
else can they find you? Out there? Online?
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Yeah, I hope everybody will. We'll check that out. That'd
be great. But you can find me all over social media,
the named Matt Rushing zero too. I'm also here on
the network with a show called Outpost every single chapter
of the Harry Potter series, one chapter at a time.
You can also find me over on the TFM network.
Like John mentioned, I appreciate that I am, of course
(37:09):
on the six oh two Club, but I've got a
lot of other great shows over there, a lot of
great star trek talk with my friend Chris Jones, as
we're digging into a lot of those anniversary rewatches for
the different shows that have had anniversaries recently in the
last few years. So please check that out. But John, Goodness,
I think it's a Nerfsteak night over at the Jedi Temple.
(37:33):
So I think it's time we close these negotiations.
Speaker 4 (37:35):
Oh Man, With a couple of jahwa juice, that is
a perfect evening. So master rushing negotiations are
Speaker 1 (37:41):
No Join the Revolution, Join the Nerd Party.
Welcome to the ned Palty.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hi.
Speaker 3 (00:06):
This is Nick and Astasu, story editor on Star Wars,
the Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch, and you
are listening to Aggressive negotiations.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Hello, and welcome to Aggressive Negotiations. That's right, that slice
of Star Wars Heaven that you know you just can't
get enough of, and coming at you again live from Aldawnie.
Let's just say the fireworks are about to begin, and
I am just one of your hosts, Matthew Rushing and
(00:45):
with me as he is every single episode, the one
the only curmudgeonly, yes, curmudgeoned Jedi Master John Mills Well
apparently doesn't like or good shows.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
He does like trolling you, though, because it's an incredibly
easy thing to do, and it is. You know, honestly,
it's not easy, but I mean it's feasible, it's it possible.
It was considered to be one of my Jedi trials,
but then I proved how easily I could do it,
and Yoda was like, oh, do something harder, you must.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
And here we are, man oh man, Well we're excited
to be here. Of course, before we get started, you
could always find what we're doing here all over the
place on social media. We're at the Jedi Masters on
ex Twitter as well as the entire as well as
the entire network at Join the nerd Party. We're on
(01:46):
Instagram at the nerd Party on Facebook at Facebook, dot com,
slash and nerd Party. You can also support the show
by giving us a star rating and review. We would
really appreciate that. It really actually helps the show grow.
And if you like our podcast.
Speaker 5 (02:01):
You know, maybe share it with friend, be like, hey,
do you like Star wars Man and I've got the
podcast for you. You need to be listening to aggressive negotiations,
do stuff like that. Word of mouth is the best
way to grow a podcast. And last, but not least,
just thank you for listening. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
So John, this season of and Or, you know, we
have been building two different parts of the story arc,
and of course this is kind of the closing bit
for this heist that we have on al Donnie with
the episode The Eye, and so first and foremost, I
(02:38):
just wanted to get your just kind of general oppressions
of this episode as we kind of bring this part
of the arc to a close.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
Well, that feels like I'm giving away too much of
the beginning. I mean, I want people to stick around
for the end of the conversation as well. Obviously, Matt,
It's true. That's that's the thing that makes sense. I
went into this episode everybody knows. Everybody, come on, tell
me you listen to the last two episodes. You know
where I was. You know that I really enjoyed the
(03:05):
fourth one, felt there were opportunities for improvement in the
second one. Matt and I felt strangely similar about the
the the you know, the second part of this arc,
and like we we wound up in very similar places.
It's just I came at it from a different angle,
you know, you know which we do, we do it happens. Yeah,
(03:28):
So basically I came into this one hopeful because I
was like, I remember liking this episode, but I also
remembered that there were certain points where I was like,
it felt like it could have just been quicker at
the end. So I was curious to see if my
opinion stayed there, because we all know, I'm I've been
(03:48):
really sort of hard on the pacing of the episodes,
and you know, I also couldn't remember if we spent
too much time with Cyril Cyril, Cyril Cereal.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Yeah, and thankfully he's he's not even in this episode,
so yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
Strangely, it seems to be to the episode's benefit that
he wasn't, because the absence of Cyril immediately made the
episode better in my opinion. I was like, oh, I agree,
I'm not agreeing over to Cyril. Agreece is acceptable to me.
I will meet this episode on its own terms.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Therefore, Well, so I do want to add so that's
a great thing, you know, so you don't end up
giving too much away here, But I did want to
ask you because this episode is incredibly focused, uh, in
the sense that we spend almost the entire episode on Aldanni,
and we are, you know, making everything finally happen, right,
(04:47):
All that they've been planning for in the last couple
of episodes comes to fruition here. We're not going to
leave you waiting anymore. And we're also, like I said,
we're not going to spend time in other places until Bill.
Basically the climax of this major event, this major heist,
this first incredible movement of the rebellion hits and once
(05:12):
that finally happens, then will kind of split over to
like mon Mathma and Luthen and get their kind of
reactions as they hear this thing that they've been waiting
to hear has actually happened. And so, how did you
feel like that then worked for the episode, because I
know you've been kind of frustrated, as you mentioned, with
some of the editing choices, where we've kind of been
(05:34):
bouncing around, and this episode, you know, that's one of
the things that doesn't do. It does not bounce around.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
It doesn't It's very focused, and I think that it
really is to the director is Susannah White here, and
I think that she really brings that that focus that
I've been looking for. We all know that I've a
weak thing about sequels, and I blame George Lucas for
this and Steven Spielberg. No, seriously, because if you look
(06:03):
at the Star Wars movies, the first six, and you
look at the Indiana Jones movies, you don't have to
have seen one that came before to get totally what's
going on. You know, I'm big about that I should
be able to plug.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
It up at any very much about.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
That, and this episode absolutely passes that test. Suzannah White
takes the script and the script is very focused. But additionally,
this is a show like this is an episode where
it's like, we are not going to mess around with
what we need to show you, and everything is firing
(06:38):
here from the get go toward that one goal, that
ending goal. And I think that especially one of the
things that it allows it to do that's really to
its benefit is it gives the actor's name is Stanley Townsend,
who plays the commandant. Oh yeah, yeah, that character, the
(07:01):
direction and the way that he has worked into the
story is beyond exactly right. And that is the little
nudge for this episode. And that's what everybody on the
crew deserves credit for cast hand crew is Stanley Townsend
is given the opportunity to be that sort of an inept,
(07:22):
bureaucratic evil that exists in a system like this. Yeah,
you can tell that had it been the Republic, had
it been the New Republic, had it been the Empire,
had it been the yujenn Vong in charge, had it
been anybody in charge, this guy was simply this is
his job. This is what he's going to do. He
doesn't like it anymore than anybody else, but this is
(07:42):
the system. He's just he's there, right, I'm just doing
my job. Like he's he's not a cruel person. He's
a guy who's just like, look, this is just the
way the world is. This is what I'm going to do.
And it really illustrates everything that I think Lucas himself
would have been big about, which is the banaloe of evil,
that it's easy to exist in a system where you
(08:05):
don't think too deeply about what's going on. Sure, and
this is my job, this is what I do. You
know what. I didn't do anything bad to the chieftain.
I don't like him. I'm talking bad about him behind
closed doors, but I'm not mean to his face. I
do what I'm supposed to do. That's fine, that's enough,
you know, And it's just it's really I think that
the focus is what allows the episode to bring that
(08:28):
to the forefront. Yeah, I was.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
I'm glad you brought that up, because I think that
he really is kind of a winchpin character for this series,
and part.
Speaker 5 (08:42):
Of that.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Is because of the way in which he brings into
focus the very thing that they are fighting against, right
which is, like you said, it's not people who are
avert evil in the sense that they are you know,
they're they're just willing and ready to kind of like
(09:08):
murder everybody in their path.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
Right.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
This is the type of person who has such a
superiority complex about everybody being less than him. He looks
down on these people, right, he, like you said, he's
making fun of them. He sees himself as being superior
to them in every single way, and so do all
(09:32):
of the other officers there. Every single one of them
looks on these people and just thinks they're kind of backwater,
worthless people. To me, that's that. I'm so glad that
you brought that up, because it is that type of
evil where because of the way in which Palpatine runs
(09:55):
the empire, it encourages people to act like this, right,
which is to get yours and in doing so, you
are willing to just step over anyone and step on
anyone to get what you want, right. I mean, his
whole goal is to get off this backwater planet because
(10:17):
he doesn't feel appreciated enough, right, And that's even what
he you know. And then he treats his wife and
his son kind of the same way he treats everybody else,
and then he makes them feel bad for saying when
he's like don't you want off this planet? You know,
like it's like you said, it's it's so well performed
because he does it so effortlessly that it just kind
(10:41):
of makes your skin crawl when as you're watching him.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
But at the same time you get the opportunity to
see him as again, he's a guy who just doesn't
think about it. No, he doesn't focus, He just thinks
about himself. Yes, but that's exactly the trap that everybody
in the everyday world falls into. My career, my advancement,
the system doesn't work. Who cares. I'm just gonna get mine.
(11:04):
All I can do is control what's in the world
around me to an extent, that is all you can control.
But then you don't think about the atrocity of the
company you're working for, that praise on the innocent, or
the chemical waste of the plant that you work at,
(11:25):
because what are you going to do about it. You're
gonna go up to your boss and get fired, or
in the case of a guy in the empire, you're
gonna get shot, You're gonna lose your position. Yes, that
is exactly how a system supports itself. And you know
it's easy to run off and criticize any system like that.
But we know what's powering the empire. We know that
(11:45):
basically Satan himself is at the top of this chain.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Yeah, exactly exactly.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
But this guy isn't thinking about that. He's not, he doesn't.
He's never going to meet the Emperor. He doesn't know
what's going on. Nope, he doesn't care. He just wants
to get off.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
And the thing is, it creates a really thoughtful piece
to the episode, up to and including the point where
the guy suddenly realizes that his trusted lieutenant has betrayed
him and he has a heart attack. It's just it's
it's too much for him because this is just not
(12:22):
what he signed up for. He didn't ye, he didn't
commit the specific a trial. The system did it. What
am I going to do about it? And the thing is,
there's an interesting contrast because Richard Katz, who plays the colonel,
he is the guy who is all like. He does
(12:42):
a really good job of subtly playing the guy who
is all in on it, who gets it like. It's
hard to describe because he doesn't have a lot of
screen time, but the fact that he pulls the gun
he's in on hi yah, right. The Commandant's like, I
just hey, guys, leave me alone. I don't know what
I'm doing here, you know, I just work here. What
(13:04):
are you doing? The colonel is the one that's like,
I'll kill all of you, even though he knows it's
dumb to try to pull that gun. It's the idiots
maneuver right there. And so yeah, I mean I think
that is, in all honesty, what elevates the episode. It's
very easy for people to say, oh, well, the I
or the chieftain played great by David Hayman, you know,
(13:28):
the chieftain is what elevates it, or the effects or
the escape or the heist or anything like that. No,
it's these two characters are what elevates this episode.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Well in talking about them, and I'm so glad that
you kind of like keyed in to them in this
part of the episode, because the thing I was really
really struck by was the conversation that the commandant and
he are having, and the commandant and this engineer who
are visiting, and he's describing the way in which they
(13:59):
are slowly and methodically taking away everything from these people
without them even realizing that it's happening.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
To them, right, And.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
What it showed me is the way in which the
Empire has slowly but surely been taking away people's desire
for religion and replacing it with dependence on the state.
Speaker 4 (14:26):
Yes, exactly, right, terrifying.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Absolutely terrifying. I mean, And what I find to be
so incredible about this is that you think about the
depth here then that Lucas's universe is allowing these writers
to be able to talk about here. It's something that
(14:48):
we've seen play out, I mean, and Gilroy talked about
this in a recent interview, you know, He's like, look,
I don't want this show to be something that anybody goes, Oh,
so that's this in our current political world. He's like,
I'm rooting this in massive historical movements from history, you know,
(15:13):
from ancient history, the same way that Lucas was right exactly.
But when you think about that idea, right, is that
in our most in the most recent history that we've seen,
what are the countries that have done this? They have
tried to remove everything from a person but complete dependence
(15:34):
on the state. And it's kind of a terrifying thing.
And so I absolutely love that that is what this
episode is doing. I think it's incredibly smart. The beauty
of that, though, was that I was realizing that this
episode was that then microcosm of the macro that's been
happening now for what this is almost fifteen years of
(15:58):
the Empire, and this has been their modus operandi in
every single planet.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
But the important thing to remember is that the Republic
put all of this machinery in place. It's just the
Emperor knew how to use it. He spent all that
time as Supreme Chancellor. Understand he understood the system, he
knew how to manipulate it, and he knew also how
to pass rules, regulations, laws, what have you. That made
it so that he could leverage it even more. And
(16:24):
I think that this is what this is what winds
up being frustrating in this sense. I'm not being a
negative Nelly here, but this is the sort of thing
where if I had enjoyed that first three episode arc more,
I know they were going for tying it together, where
it's like the Republic was full of a bunch of
bad operators as well, people who were of similar ilk
(16:46):
to this commandant and this kernel. They're they're not unique,
it's just a different system. They're the same guys. Though,
when whenever you get a large enough system in place,
people like this are there and it's it's I'm going
to mangle it. I forget who it was that said
(17:07):
it specifically, but it was one of the founders founding
Fathers quote unquote of America and it was a system
is only as good as the people that are in it,
or something like that. And the thing is it underlines
that people get caught up debating the systems, but it's
(17:28):
really the people inside them that make it tolerable or intolerable.
And I know I have enough of a memory of
the next arc to know that that really gets underlined
in how insidious it really is. Yes, the way that
the system gets leveraged by people who want to manipulate
(17:49):
it or want to go on a power trip.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
And is this system really any different than the Republic?
How is it different than the Republic? I think that's
a fascinating sort of thing to study and look at,
and that gets that timelessness as well well.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
And and I think you can see the manipulation of
the system in the sense of creating you know, the
Republic begins as a representational government for planets, to send
representatives to so they're representing actual people, right. Uh. You know,
(18:28):
the then the big change then comes in in this
system is when you allow then corporations to be represented.
They don't represent people, they're representing a business. And so
you're tying like this idea of of the state and
business in a way that is obviously incredibly dangerous. And
(18:53):
and so I think that's also a real key uh
that we get here. And and so yeah, I mean
I think you know, your point is really well made
in the sense that the Emperor rights has just utilized
all the things that were already in place, and he
(19:15):
has just continued to tweak them further and further to
his advantage.
Speaker 4 (19:21):
Well, the thing that's really great is you and I
we spent nearly four hundred episodes by this point talking.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
About Star Wars Hard, which is crazy.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
Where did the time go? But we're sitting here, we're
talking about this, and what's fascinating is is this is
one of those moments in Star Wars, this episode in particular,
that's great because the Emperor really doesn't he doesn't care
about the particulars here. The Emperor himself is not directing
(19:51):
wipe out the Aldani. It just creates more evil and
sadness in the galaxy, which feeds the dark side. Cool, right,
He's not sitting there. He doesn't have to direct it
to happen. It's just what happens feeds the dark side,
gives more power, gives more opportunity for him to worry
(20:12):
about the things that he really does worry about. Cheating death,
living forever, exerting his will on everything. That's all he
cares about. Now that those are big things to care about.
And he's a bad dude, but he's not a micromanager.
And that's the horrifying thing is he doesn't need to micromanage.
(20:35):
But yep. Conversely, what I want to ask you is,
we know that a lot of this is payoff of
the build up from the previous two episodes. We've got
our big heist episode. Is there anything about this episode
that doesn't work for you? What does not work for you?
(20:56):
What could have been tightened up, what could have been removed,
what could have been reorganized? What doesn't work for you here?
Speaker 2 (21:03):
I mean not not to just be the fanboy, but
I I don't really think there's anything that doesn't work
for me here. And a big part of that is
is what we've kind of talked about in the sense
that what makes this truly an interesting episode is that,
you know, we didn't just focus on on the heist
(21:29):
and uh and and and those machinations. What we focused on,
which made it even more interesting, was these imperial officers
and their attitude towards these people, which clues us in
to the very thing to which you know, as as
(21:51):
we talked about in the last episode, you know, we
get this this idea that everybody has their own rebellion
and they're all fighting the rebellion for different reasons. And
in that, you know, we've seen this kind of growing
sense then in different characters, specifically the character of and
Or right like this this whole show is about building
(22:14):
him into the character that we will see in Rogue one.
And so what is it about his experience that's going
to lead him to want to join this rebellion? And
I think those experiences, even though he doesn't get, you know,
a first hand view of what happened don Ald Donnie
(22:35):
in the sense of the way that the Empire is
treating these people, he's very well aware of that's what's
happening to these people. Because that's what happened to him
in his planet, right, right, And so again I think
what they do is that they kind of help continue
to drive home the point that they were making in
(22:57):
those first few episodes with with and or in his
time on Knari, And so I I don't I don't know. Again,
I really just can't think of anything that didn't work
for me, because you know, as we've you know, and
I know you had frustration with you know, some of
(23:20):
the pacing and some of that stuff with with these
episodes and felt like we could have been tighter here,
you know, But this just I mean, this kind of
I feel like the story, they know exactly what they
wanted to do, they knew exactly what needed to happen
in this episode, and then they just do it and
(23:41):
there isn't any extraneous material. And so I don't know,
do was there anything that you like? Because you can
be more critical on that on that side, was there
anything that didn't work for you?
Speaker 4 (23:52):
I'm going to talk about two things really real quick.
I don't want to belabor any points here and it's
not going to go the way everybody thing's here in
the audience. Sorry, So just just settle down, put your
pitch fork.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
So you're saying, this is okay, Okay, this isn't this
isn't the last Jedi.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
Okay. I was just making sure anyway. Two things. One
is a thing where I wound up like strangely in
my brain praising it for the fact that it would
have been so easy. And this is such a maybe
(24:31):
it's a weird thing. But when Vell and kaz Or
Santa Stay are in their little rock hideout and the
troopers come walking by, and one of the troopers stops
to take a leak near them, this is where I'll
give the director. I don't know how the script was,
but you know, writing and directing go hand in hand.
(24:53):
But Susannah White, it would have been so easy for
a director to make it disgusting and have him relieve
himself in such a way that it like we see
it leak on one of them and they have to
be quiet. I applaud the show for not going down
that route. It would have been so easy. There are
so many shows that would have indulged that disgusting nature.
(25:16):
Are glad. Number two the thing that I that I
struggled with a little bit at the end. Both times.
But I think I've come to a place where I'm
okay with it, and I get it is Skeen finding
out Skeen's actually a schev as opposed to a skin
and and Or shoots him. And where I come to
(25:39):
it with and I want to get your thoughts on
it as we wrap up, right, is I want to
get your thoughts on it as we wrap up. Is
that it's important for him to suddenly reveal himself to
be an untrustworthy character because and Or Cassian, reacting as
(26:03):
quickly and decisively as he does to shoot him, demonstrates
that he has a limit to his a morality that
he is, He's less a moral than he'd like to
tell himself. There's still a code of honor for him.
(26:26):
And while it's unsettling that he shoots Skein the way
that he does, it is absolutely necessary. He's the guy
that's sitting there. He knows he can't talk Skeen out
of it. He knows that if he doesn't move, then
Skein's going to shoot him. Yeah, and so Cassian shot
first to tap into another third rail in Star Wars discussion. Yes,
(26:51):
and that's sort of where I come to is like,
I think it's actually a nice character building moment for
Cassian because he is we established there's a limit to
how far he'll go. Now, does he violate that in
Rogue one? Therefore, I don't.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Well, so I was gonna I was gonna ask you
that question because I know that in Rogue one, one
of the things that you kind of have an issue
with is that moment where he shoots the guy at
the beginning, right, and this was a way to reinforce that.
And Or, like you said, is less a moral than
(27:29):
he would like to hope he could be, because you know,
he doesn't want to really care about anybody, but he
can't help himself, which is in some ways it's like
the more gritty version of the Han solo arc. Yeah,
and yet at the same time too, what I think
that this does is that shows us and Or's predilection
(27:52):
for making sure that the mission goes forth with whatever
means necessary. And if it means that I do need
to kill somebody who's going to get in the way
of that or jeopardize that mission, I'm gonna have to
be okay with that, Which is then you know, when
he gives the speech to to jin about like you
(28:15):
have no idea what I've given for this, which is
what also plays into a very important speech we will
get at the at the end of season one that
comes from Luthen as well. And so what we're doing
here is we're building this character who, much like Luthan,
is going to be somebody who is willing to sacrifice
(28:39):
his own self.
Speaker 4 (28:42):
For this.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
And and that's where I kind of come down on
that scene with with Skin is that it's kind of
reinforcing a character trait that he's just going to continue
to build, but that that character trait is going to
be one to which he utilizes for I guess you
could call it, for lack of a better term, really
(29:03):
the greater good.
Speaker 4 (29:05):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
So I don't know if that if that it makes
sense at.
Speaker 4 (29:10):
All or yeah, I you know, I I totally plug
into what you're saying, Like I think that there there
is truth to that, specifically because he is in a
position at the end of the episode to take everything
and instead he says, I just I just want what
you promised me and then I'm out and I'm not
(29:32):
gonna I'm not gonna take you for all, you know,
having much money at what eighty million, not gonna do
that to you? Totally fine, just give me what I'm
owed and a ship. And he even he's gonna pay
the doctor for his ship. He's like, I'll pay you
more than that. It's even worth. So yeah, it's it's
I think it winds up being a nice thing. I
(29:52):
I felt a little cheated at first. I remember the
first time I saw it, I was like, oh, why'd
you do that? That that that character having that twist
at the end of the episode. I didn't care for it.
I was like, that felt forced. But then I realized
that it did serve the larger character arc, So I'm
okay with it. And I think that that is sort
(30:14):
of the thing that I had the biggest problem with
the first time. Sure I did not, and I know
it's the nature of it, but maybe it's more about
the fact that I wind up caring about the character.
But the fact that they decided to kill the idealist
caris what was his name, The fact that they decided
(30:37):
to have him killed in such a cheap way it
bothered me. I didn't like it. I would have liked
to see that kid survive. To the point where Cassian
shoots Skeme, and then the kid can say something as
he's walking out the doors. Like I knew it. I
know that there's you know, like it just it felt
(30:59):
like killing both Scheme and Keris was unnecessary to have
him both. I I I get it. I know it's
the nature of the beast, but you know, I just
I just wish they hadn't knocked him off, knocked off
both of them.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I can one hundred percent understand
what you're saying, And mainly because I agree with you,
I really enjoy that character. I think, you know, he's
a really interesting character.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
And it's more interesting than Cyril.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Yes, And I think part of that is is that
you know, what he drives at is is just this
this idea of the philosophy of rebellion and really digging
into that is incredibly interesting to me. And I agree,
I wish we had, you know, more of it. I
(31:56):
think it would just be nice if if he got
more of a chance to kind of help expound on
on these ideas. And yet, you know, his death is
and I think you even mentioned this idea, right, his
(32:16):
death is one of the things that's going to I
think affect and or right, especially when you know he's
handed the manifesto and he's forced to take it. He
doesn't want it, and yet Kars knows that if it
(32:37):
sits with him long enough, he's not going to be
able to sit this out forever. And and and so
you know, I love that moment. I think it's uh,
like you said, it's it's it's what makes his death
so ridiculously bittersweet in the episode, because you really like
(33:01):
this character. And yet you know, I also just love
the way in which then fell is like, no, you
take this. He wanted you to have it, he insisted,
and so if you're gonna leave, you've got to take
this with you too. And so yeah, I mean it's
(33:23):
one of those things too. It sounds like then for
you this might be Is this your favorite episode of
the series so far?
Speaker 4 (33:34):
Probably yeah, I'd say that. I'd say that's safe. Yeah,
this is my favorite one of the series so far.
I think that great direction, well written, and even the
cherryo at the cherry on top for me is getting
to see the galactic Senate again and see how the
senators don't really care what's going on. I'm like, oh yeay,
(33:57):
I love this chamber. But like I said, I've always
been a geek for the the political stuff. But I
do like the fact that it ends with Luthen excusing
himself to the back where he can laugh yeah and
and just be happy about what happened. I think that
that's the little cherry on the episode that that works
(34:20):
really well. So hands down my favorite. Is it your
favorite episode so far the season?
Speaker 2 (34:25):
I think absolutely, And and that's not because and this
is not a detriment to any of the other episodes
I think in the in the season. I think, honestly,
you know, for me, unlike you, this has been a
great season of a show so far, you know, I've
really enjoyed I think. I think what this became though,
(34:48):
is that this episode just and and part of this too.
Speaker 4 (34:51):
Right.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
It's like this episode here is really the culmination of
the whole first six episodes, right, and so it's almost
like a mid season finale, and they really I think,
nail it, right. I think they they just make you like,
(35:12):
they bring home everything that they were doing and it
it feels incredibly fulfilling.
Speaker 4 (35:21):
Right.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
I get to the end of this episode and it's like, oh,
this is what we've been doing the whole time. This
is where we've been building through it, and so I
really like that, and I'm glad that, you know, it
worked for both of us, and and I'm you know,
I'm hopeful then that as we move forward, that'll just
(35:42):
continue to happen for both of us. But John, if
you know, people wanted to catch up with you and
see what else got going on and maybe even just
talk a little bit about and or here and and
you know their thoughts on things, where would they find you?
Speaker 4 (35:59):
Well, you know, for the time being, when we're recording
this episode, I'm taking a break from social media, so
you can find me a kessel Junki dot com tossing
stuff around. Would be fun. Go look through the archives.
I probably said something controversial in the past. Knock yourself out,
look for it. Try to take me offline. I invite it.
I don't care. You can also find me here on
the network co hosting a show called house Lights with
(36:22):
Tristan Riddell and Darren Moser, where we look at the
work of directors we have. We have a time. It's
a lot of fun. Recommend you go check it out.
But I also spend some time over on the TFM
Network on a little show called The six oh two Club.
Every so often I do a pull a guest spot
over there. It's the birthplace of aggressive negotiations technically, and Matt,
(36:44):
I think that's where people can finde you. So where
else can they find you? Out there? Online?
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Yeah, I hope everybody will. We'll check that out. That'd
be great. But you can find me all over social media,
the named Matt Rushing zero too. I'm also here on
the network with a show called Outpost every single chapter
of the Harry Potter series, one chapter at a time.
You can also find me over on the TFM network.
Like John mentioned, I appreciate that I am, of course
(37:09):
on the six oh two Club, but I've got a
lot of other great shows over there, a lot of
great star trek talk with my friend Chris Jones, as
we're digging into a lot of those anniversary rewatches for
the different shows that have had anniversaries recently in the
last few years. So please check that out. But John, Goodness,
I think it's a Nerfsteak night over at the Jedi Temple.
(37:33):
So I think it's time we close these negotiations.
Speaker 4 (37:35):
Oh Man, With a couple of jahwa juice, that is
a perfect evening. So master rushing negotiations are
Speaker 1 (37:41):
No Join the Revolution, Join the Nerd Party.
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