March 25, 2025 • 45 mins
Andor: Season One - Announcement.
As Andor Season 2 approaches, Matt and John discuss the themes and story turns in the seventh episode of Star Wars: Andor. A new arc starts with this episode, focused on the galactic ripple effects from the Aldhani heist, while Cassian returns home amid planning what to do with his score. What is the episode trying to say? Does it advance the series momentum? Does it suffer as a prequel to Rogue One by working too hard to tie things in to where it’s going? It’s sure to be another interesting episode as the Jedi Masters work to see eye to eye on “Announcement.”
Host
John Mills and Matthew Rushing
Love listening to Aggressive Negotiations, a Star Wars podcast that’s different from all the rest? Then you’ll love The Nerd Party, a one-of-a-kind podcast network focused on all the best of Star Trek, the magical realm of the Harry Potter books, the works of the best film directors in history, the latest from international film and comic stars, and so much more!
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Twitter: @TheJediMasters
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheNerdParty/
Email: http://www.thenerdparty.com/contact
Subscribe in Apple Podcasts
As Andor Season 2 approaches, Matt and John discuss the themes and story turns in the seventh episode of Star Wars: Andor. A new arc starts with this episode, focused on the galactic ripple effects from the Aldhani heist, while Cassian returns home amid planning what to do with his score. What is the episode trying to say? Does it advance the series momentum? Does it suffer as a prequel to Rogue One by working too hard to tie things in to where it’s going? It’s sure to be another interesting episode as the Jedi Masters work to see eye to eye on “Announcement.”
Host
John Mills and Matthew Rushing
Love listening to Aggressive Negotiations, a Star Wars podcast that’s different from all the rest? Then you’ll love The Nerd Party, a one-of-a-kind podcast network focused on all the best of Star Trek, the magical realm of the Harry Potter books, the works of the best film directors in history, the latest from international film and comic stars, and so much more!
Send us your feedback!
Twitter: @TheJediMasters
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheNerdParty/
Email: http://www.thenerdparty.com/contact
Subscribe in Apple Podcasts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the ned Palty.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hi.
Speaker 3 (00:06):
This is Nick Anstasu, story editor on Star Wars, The
Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch, and you are
listening to Aggressive Negotiations.
Speaker 4 (00:23):
It's another beautiful beachside day here on Aggressive Negotiations, the
Star Wars podcast that explores everywhere in the Star Wars universe,
uncovering that which must be uncovered, like grains of sand
on a beach. We are examining all of the facets
that are often overlooked and passed by by other viewers
(00:44):
and podcasts. I am one of your hosts, Jedi Master
John Mills. Joining me on this luxurious podcast is Jedi
Master Matthew Rushing. Matt, do you have your sunscreen ready?
As you get a drink served you by what looks
like in ant eater giggling on the sandy shores of
(01:06):
Amos Neamos Niamos.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
How do you pronounce this planet anyway? I'm not entirely sure.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Hey, John, can you give me one of those like,
uh yeah, one of the the you know, uh, the
curly straw ones?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Yeah? Uh no, No, I can't, because come on, man,
it's the name of it.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
It's that it's a specific straw to this planet, and
I can't. They won't serve it to me until I
figure out how to pronounce the name of this planet.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
So that's where I need my Wow.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Good luck with that, because I don't even know namos neomos. Yeah,
it's but it's really nice here. Uh, you know, it's
pretty Yeah, it kind of reminds me of that that
planet and uh and Skeleton Crew. You know, this is
the tropical planet, I guess, or the beach planet and
you know the one Skeleton Crew we had the planet
(01:55):
with the hot springs, you know, and the and the
hot mud maths and stuff. So man, we're really we're
really diving into some cool places here in Disney Star
Wars or so we are going to be talking about
and or a season one, episode seven announcement, and I'm
really excited to be diving into this one. But before
(02:16):
we do that, maybe you're like, how you know, I
love these guys, They're great. I've been listening for a
long time. What could I do something special for them? Well,
start rating and review on an Apple podcasts would be
extremely helpful. We even read those out on the show,
and you can also rate things on Spotify. So maybe
(02:37):
you're a Spotify listener and you listen to your podcast there,
give us a rating there too, help people find us.
But John, So this episode is interesting because as it starts,
this kind of like next arc in some ways too,
it's almost like a bridge because it's really about the
fallout of this massive rebel attack, which seems to be
(03:02):
one of the largest rebel attacks that has happened up
unto this point. And in fact, the episode even called
announcement in some ways is the sense of saying, Hey,
we're truly here, We're not going away, And so I
wanted to just start here because it has so much
to do with everybody else's response to this, but it's
(03:25):
the imperial response that kind of then drives everything else
that we see really in this episode. And so what
do you think and what did you think of what
we see of the ISB response, you know, the way
the emperor himself responds, and then even the internal you know,
(03:48):
bickering that is now going back and forth inside the
ISB because of all of this.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
Well, I mean, as I've said many many times during
the history of this show, I am an absolutely nerd
for bureaucratic, political machinations, and so the ISB stuff is
right up my alley. That like, that type of stuff
is a love letter to me. While everybody else was
complaining about the Galactic Senate in episode one, I was
the one sitting there saying, yeah, yeah, give me more.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Who's filing emotion?
Speaker 4 (04:17):
Yes, exactly, That's exactly how I would manipulate this situation.
It's a benefit of growing up in the DC metro area.
You're sort of steeped in this nonsense. I think it's great.
I think that the ISB stuff is a wonderful way
to start because it immediately gets in there. It starts
off the arc, and I think it's a great way
(04:38):
to start this conversation, specifically because I think you wind
up having the exact type of conversation you would have
talking about a George Lucas type of scenario or a
story point, which is chicken and egg. The Empire is
a bad thing. It's basically just a revamped version of
(04:59):
the report public. The Republic had its problems. We saw
that all the way at the beginning of this show.
We've seen it in the other materials, and the Emperor
really just said, okay, the machinery is in place, I'm
just going to use it with ill intent because good,
you know, no system is completely bad. It's the people
in it that make it awful sort of thing. So well, okay,
(05:21):
that's not true. There are bad systems anyway, you know
what I'm trying to say. Anyway, I think that you
wind up with that chicken and egg argument because you
have Dedra recognizing and saying we are reacting exactly the
way that is going to make the rebels popular for
doing this. It's going to make people sympathize with them,
and it echoes what is going to come in episode
(05:44):
four with Princess Leah saying the more you tighten your
grip Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.
It's this whole idea of how much response is too
much response? And I think it's a very interesting one
because you even obviously have an echo of the American
response to something like nine to eleven. Now, obviously al
(06:07):
Donnie's a heist. Nine to eleven is a different thing,
But it's the question of proportion. Should you be enacting
these sweeping changes to the laws, Should you be enacting
these sweeping surveillance rules, should should you be reacting like
this to what happened or are you actually making the
(06:29):
situation worse? Yeah, and that's always a worthwhile type of
discussion to have.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yeah, I mean, I think this is an interesting thing
because the response here, because we get you Lauren here
saying I've spoken to the emperor, and basically the Emperor said,
we're bringing the hammer. We're treating this like everything's a
nail and we're going to hit it with a hammer.
We're going to hit it hard, and we're going to
just crush it. And it makes me think, because you know,
(06:57):
we haven't seen everything that's happened, and in these dark times,
we don't know about all of the uprisings that have
happened that the Empire has put down in the way
that it's worked out. But I almost get the sense
here that the Emperor has spent so much time seeing
these nascent rebellions being able to be easily put down,
(07:22):
he's miscalculated as to what this is. And because it
seems I'm just guessing, but that previously, putting down the
hammer has been the thing that can get rid of
a rebellion. And yet by the misreading here of this situation,
(07:45):
you know, like you mentioned, the only one who's reading
this situation correctly is Dedra. She's the one who's been
already placing these pieces together from this puzzle that she's
been pulling from, and she's got enough of the picture
to realize that, you know, this is exactly what the
(08:05):
rebels want. This is this is this is the thing
that they're going In fact, the response that we're getting
is exactly what Lutheren says he wants because he wants
the tight the titan grip so people flee or want
to flee, and and so, yes, I agree with you.
It's it just makes it so interesting because you know,
(08:28):
the whole point of the show is is obviously to
grow the character of and or to get him to
the point we'd see him in Rogue one. But he's
a he's the microcosm of the macro, right, and so
the the experience is that he's going through, how he's
dealing with all of these situations, and the growth that
(08:49):
he's going to have is going to represent a lot
of the growth that then the rest of the galaxy
is experiencing, which you know, we see the way those
parallels play out. By the end of the season too.
So that's what makes all of this I think so
fascinating because then as well, the other thing that stored
(09:10):
out to me about the isb is it seems as
though this backstabbing and this bickering and all this stuff
has kind of been allowed to to kind of flourish there,
and yet this director kind of puts the kebash on that.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
And you know, it's.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Almost as like he's gotten tired of wrangling the children
and he's ready for more adults to be here who
are willing to take some risks, and the risk is
something like Dedre who's willing to put in work and
bring in actual interesting ideas.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
Then but see, I like that you, I like you
brought up the director. But there are two things right.
First off, to address the director directly, the actor is fantastic.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
In the role.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
I love him. I think he's wonderful. And the thing
that's unsettling is he really is, in a lot of
ways exactly the type of boss you want in any situation,
because somebody will say something and you know, when the
guy is challenging Dejra, he goes, do you think this
is the form to bring it up in? I do sir, okay,
give me your your data, and she and then she
(10:22):
says something in defense, and he says thesis. And all
he's doing is facilitating the discussion. Yeah, and then saying, okay,
you have data. You know what, I'm going to take
it away from you. I'm going to give it to her.
This is nothing personal. They're deciding to take it personally. Yeah,
he's just saying, okay, Well, that's actually an interesting thing.
(10:42):
That's why I love when he looks at somebody and
he says, thesis, tell me why you think that. Okay,
I'm willing to listen. He's actually a really good boss
from that perspective. He's in a terrible machine, but he's
a great boss. But you mentioned Lutheran. I know this.
Let's keep this part of the conversation going because they're like,
(11:03):
I've been very guilty in the show so far of
descending into particulars about whether I like the pacing, whether
my dreams of finally opening with a real deep dive
on Cyril's life is fulfilled in this episode or not.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
But I think that.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
The really worthwhile thread to pull at is being longtime
Star Wars fans. There's always the sort of question about
Saugerere's partisans.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
They're terrible. They do these awful things. We've seen them
in action.
Speaker 4 (11:37):
They strike hard, and they make the empire clamp down
even harder.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
But that's what Luthen wants to.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
So are we in a situation like are we set
to by default sympathize with man Mathma's reaction to what
has happened to say no, let me keep doing this Luthan,
I think is revealed in this episode of putting the
(12:08):
question in front of us. Somebody likes he's somebody like saw,
I'm going to make things terrible for everybody because it
will benefit me in the long run, because I believe
that'll make the rebellion grow. Whether Saul has that same
type of focus, we'll have to see. But do you
think we're just predisposed as longer term Star Wars fans
to sympathize with man Mathma, or do you think that
(12:30):
there's something compelling about Luthen's argument where we start to
see why man Mathma couldn't work within the system, why
Lea can't work within the system, and neither can Bail.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
I think the most interesting thing about this is is
the Luthan says to mon Mathma something akin to there
are going to be no more rules. And what he's
trying to get across to man is the fact that
they're the Empire hasn't been playing by any rules. It's
put on the veneer of rules, but it doesn't play
(13:03):
by any rules. It does what it wants when it wants,
and it gets away with it, right, And so I
think that what Luthen is trying to get across to
her is saying, hey, we start, we have to start
playing more by those rules. And yet at the same
time it maybe it gives too much away for where
(13:23):
the show goes, but it's like the Luthan is willing
to be the guy who does that to damn his soul,
to play by no rules, but he's he doesn't necessarily
expect every single person in the rebellion to play like that, right,
He's willing to be the worst of the worst, but
he doesn't seem to be necessarily expecting everybody to muddy
(13:47):
himself to the point that he is going to, if
that makes sense.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
But that leads to the ultimate discussion point that is
there in perpetuity with anything? Is there such a thing
as too far. Yeah, we agree the Empire is a
bad system. But let's take, for instance, let's say wherever
you want to put in your brain, I'm not going
to reveal my own biases or yours or anything like that.
(14:11):
Somebody decides something as a bad system, well if they
then decide that any means are appropriate, you know, like
it's it's sort of like a in principle discussion. Sure,
I can adapt my you know, my means to any situation,
(14:32):
but is man mathma right in someone like like that?
That's the sort of thing that I that, like, I
think is just such a a George Lucas type of
thing to ask. There are heroes on both sides, evil
as everywhere. That is such a controversial way to talk
about it nowadays, that that those two sentences in the
(14:54):
title crawl of episode three Revenge of the Sith are
controversial by that type of standards, But Luthen is living
by that type of standard, where he's saying, YEA, they
got their heroes and their evil. I'm going to be
evil on this side so our heroes can do what
they need to do.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Yeah, and I think that you've just nailed one of
the main reasons as to why. I think that and
or is exactly the type of thing that George Lucas
would love, because it fits so well with what you
(15:34):
just said, you know, the the Revenge of the Sith
opening with that that crawl. This is continuing to play
out that question in a very real way, and the
cost of rebellion freedom, you know, how do we obtain that,
especially with a machine that is willing to basically do
(15:58):
whatever it takes and do whatever it wants with no apologies.
And so I think that's the one of the interesting things.
I think though, that the interesting dynamic then between mon
Mathma and Luthan is that what we have, what we
are seeing here, specifically with mon Mathma, is that Luthan
(16:19):
is trying to slowly get her to realize what this
is going to take right uh and and and that
it is going to be a much more messy business
than she thought possible. Yes, and and and and whether
or not again he he would think that she needs
(16:42):
to be him. Basically, she does have to understand the
cost of this. This this could cost them everything.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
And I think that she's almost been hoping that that's
not going to be the case.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
And I think she just really realizes this. This episode
is helping her have her eyes opened. This could get
really nasty, really fast. And then her response as she
goes to her friend and she actually I think she's
emboldened in a sense because especially when she realizes that
there are more people like her than she thought, it's
(17:20):
almost as though that whole situation gives her the freedom
then to really, Okay, I'm going to take this massive,
major risk. And her interaction with Tay is really the thing.
I think that that kind of seals her willingness to
(17:43):
start playing the game very, very hard and risk everything.
Because as much as she hated that conversation with Luthan,
I think it kind of galvanizes her as well, which
you know.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
Yeah, but to come back to the Luthen thing, do
you think that all right? Conversely, because I'm sitting there
is like, are we predisposed you know, to side with
man Mathma about you know, the way she's working with
things because we're longtime fans, et cetera, et cetera. But
then to flip it on it said and asking it,
you know, just from approaching a different angle, do you
think that we're predisposed to agree with Luthen because we know,
(18:24):
especially as longtime fans, because well, we have not encountered
the Emperor or Vader in this series at this point.
We haven't seen anybody get fried or chopped up or
mind wiped or anything like that. Are we predisposed to
side with Luthen because we know this isn't just a
terrible system that they're up against, but against again the
(18:46):
devil himself running everything. Are we predisposed to hear Luthen's
discussion about being an extremist and saying, well, yeah, obviously
we know who's at the top of this chain.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
It's sidious invader.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
Of course, you got to be a you know, and
the inquisitors are active at you know, up until around
this time.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
You know.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
Like like, there are a whole lot of things that
I think you have to sit there and wonder, right, like,
are we predisposed to give a lot of grace to
Lutheran's argument because we know firsthand who the emperor really is.
He's not just some savvy politician.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
I mean, I think that's the human element in the story,
and I think there is something instinctual to us that
responds to people being oppressed in this way where we
want to see justice done, we want to see you know,
(19:44):
freedom reign. And there's just something in so many of
us where what we're willing to and this is the question, right,
what are you willing to do or what are you
willing to allow to have happen to be able to
attain that? What is going to be okay to make
this happen or or let this happen. And you know,
(20:07):
I think that's that's the question that this show is
dealing with and asking the audience to have to deal with.
And it's you know, obviously pieces of that are in
rogue one, you know from the very beginning where you know,
and Or shoots that guide so he can get away.
(20:28):
I mean, again, these questions just keep continuing. The joke
has been made about destroying the Death Star and all
the people that died on it that you know, they're
just they're doing a job or whatever. But that's a
that's a legitimate thing in the sense of like you
think about how many people died, what is it missible
and what is permissible? Uh in a state of war
like this, especially against the machine. The size of the
(20:51):
empire is a great question, and and and that's what
this episode is really playing with.
Speaker 4 (20:57):
Well, the thing that I like in You know, there
are things about this episode that don't play particularly well for.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Me, but I don't I don't even want to bother
talking about them.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
I want to keep going on this road here because
I think that the episode also to address your part
of the statement there about what's permissible and who's working
in the system and everything. I think a system like
the one that's being portrayed here, they show that it
(21:31):
attracts as into.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Roles of authority.
Speaker 4 (21:35):
Yeah, and you see that at the end that trooper
is on a power trip, Yes, exactly, giving and and
Or has done nothing wrong, and I think that the
truly terrific thing is it. Then in the moment where
and Or gets arrested by any metric, this guy is
literally a murderer. He should go to prison fair enough.
(21:59):
He shoots the guy in cold blood in the he
doesn't shoot him on purpose, I mean guy, he shoots
the guy shoots the other guy. Yes, but I'm a
guy whose neck he breaks is an accident. That one
I'm willing to be like, Look, that was just i'll
give you a probation sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
The other guy. I'm like, that's.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
That's pretty cold. So by a lot of metrics, he's
committed a crime. We know he you know, he's remorseful
for it, but you know, anyway, So I think the
the episode does a great job of showing how even
the low level person a system like this engenders the
worst nature people. Yes, yes, yes, And I think it
(22:41):
also does a great job of really doing what science
fiction slash space fantasy should be doing, which is, you
see how a standardized or industrialized justice system is more
about processing than it is about justice. Because let's remove
(23:04):
his past from it. He's literally just going to the
store and a guy profiles him, and that guy's given
the benefit of the doubt because he's wearing that trooper uniform,
the short trooper. This is a short trooper, right that
we're gonna see rogue. Yeah, yeah, And and Or winds
up getting just consumed by the machine because they've just
(23:26):
got too many court cases to process and it's just
let's just get him out the door as quick as
we can. And then we see immediately these reforms the
ISB is talking about come into effect with the expanded
sentencing because of what he's accused for is underneath the
was it the PRD? So I want to say to you,
(23:49):
I know it made me feel really uncomfortable watching that
whole thing play out.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
I'm not unique in that, right, Oh.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
No, I mean, because I think that's the fear of
anyone is a miscarriage of justice, right, the system that
doesn't actually care about anybody in it, and they are
just there to perpetuate the system, and they don't care
who's affected or how they're affected. There's no actual justice
(24:20):
being handed out. That's not what it's about, right, It's
just about this is the system, this is what we do,
and you're just caught in it and now you're just
another cog in the wheel.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Right.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
And No, I think that is the thing that this
show does so well is that it's not necessarily trying
to pinpoint anything specifically in our society, but it makes
you think about things in our society. But it also
makes you think about history and how we have had
this exact thing thing happened. I mean you think about,
(24:55):
especially in World War Two, people picked up and thrown
into the German concentration camps or the gulags, right because
they looked a certain way or they acted a certain
way or whatever, and they were just thrown into the
system and chucked away so we didn't have to deal
with them. And that's exactly what the Empire is doing here.
And so I think that you're absolutely right in the
(25:18):
way that you were feeling watching because I was feeling
that way too. The thing that I was really struck by, though,
is the way in which and Or's character, and I
mean character as a person really shines through in this episode.
Because this guy has seemed to be somebody who's got
kind of an amorality to him. But what does he do.
He goes back to Pharyx. He wants Marva to come
(25:39):
with him, Like who he cares about in this universe
is her, because she's the one who took care of him.
She saved him, so he comes back to basically save her.
He also he goes to Bicks and he pays back
the money that he owes to all of these people.
He doesn't have to do that. Nobody has to know
he has any money. He could just disappear forever and
(26:02):
nobody know. And yet there is something in his character
to which he is not just a shyster in somebody
who's trying to take advantage of people and get away
with it. He truly has some morality to him, which
I find incredibly fascinating. And then on top of that
that confrontation with Mara at the end, when he leaves,
(26:24):
she has been emboldened by a thing she doesn't realize
her adoptive son has been a part of. And in
some ways her response is partly on and or shoulders
because it leads her then to make a choice about
how she's going to live and what she's going to do.
But it's also again, she's just a microcosm of the
(26:45):
larger macro, which is incredibly fascinating.
Speaker 4 (26:49):
By the way, one thing I wanted to ask you about,
just to make sure I'm not jumping the gun, because
I know that I don't spend a lot of time
on Reddit forums or anything like that, but it's pretty
clear that the Empire is at least spreading a story
about what happened to the garrison that's far beyond the
(27:09):
heist that they're talking about, because they talk about the
destruction of the garrison and.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
It's yes, yes, no, they're making it sound like it
was armageddon happened on this planet.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
So here's the question is do you think that they
bombed the garrison to make it look terrible and cover
up the missing money.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
I think they bombed the garrison so that they could
have everybody there under that command that they needed dead too,
so nobody could actually tell the real story.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Right.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
I think that's sweeping sayings under the galactic rug.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Right.
Speaker 4 (27:46):
Yeah, I wanted to heap praise it because I've enjoyed
staying focused on the positives here, the deep dive stuff,
because that's what we're known for sort of thing. And yeah,
it could create some discordance when we get to like
final thoughts and ratings and stuff like that. But one
thing I wanted to heat praise on the relaxing Resort
(28:08):
Town soundtrack music that then plays over the end credits.
Is this the best piece of world building background music
we've gotten since Cantina Band and or Java's Palace.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
So I'm glad you asked that, because one of the
most interesting things about that song is the way in
which Nicholas Brittel utilizes it. It is the nelmos and
it's it comes in different mixes, So there's a Morlana
club mix you'll find it on the soundtrack and there
(28:48):
are other mixes, and it continues to play in a
different mix. In fact, you heard it a little bit
at the party at Monmothmas. I mean you'll hear it
throughout the entire the season, and in each place it
kind of reflects where you are, and it's you know,
mixed in a slightly different way. Like it just it
(29:08):
really nails that sense that we're in a place where
most people aren't thinking about anything that's happening in the galaxy.
They're just here to enjoy themselves, you know, kind of
like Canto bite right, like you're just here completely forget
your troubles, so don't bother me. I'm just here to
get a drink.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
And no.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
I like the music choice. I think it's really interesting.
But I love the way in which they then utilize
that this whole season, so that in each place it
has a slightly different feel, which kind of gives you
a slightly either uneasy feeling or kind of like ah feeling,
(29:46):
And it's just, you know, it's good stuff. It's a
good choice, right to have that music reflect all of
these different moods and vibes throughout the season.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
And the thing is, I'm not meaning to throw any
shade toward Clone Wars, because I think that Kevin Kiner
with Hondo's Hideout has some club music playing in there
that I think is quite quite good, because I've started
a Clone Wars rewatch recently and I caught that piece
again and I was like, oh, this has got a
good vibe.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
But I think Zero, so do I I love?
Speaker 3 (30:28):
I love?
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Why haven't we gotten a black series figure to him?
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Why do I not have a character poster of Zero?
Is my question?
Speaker 4 (30:35):
But you know what, you know, what, if they're going
to bring back Darth Maul, you can bring back Zero,
you cowards.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
You can do it.
Speaker 4 (30:44):
But I think what really works about it too is
there is a vibe, especially with the way it plays
over the end credits. To go back to the CANTEENA
in the original Star Wars, it's basically like a jazz tune,
and with this, this sounds like the electronica type of
stuff from Chemical Brothers or Dust Brothers or daft Punk
(31:06):
that people like, you know, get funky or even you know,
something like blurred lines, you know, with with Robin Think
and right yeah Ferrell and everything like that. Like it's
got that sort of techno vibe to it. That works
because it's something familiar. It's the way you love to
say it, familiar but different, and it's like, this is
(31:27):
a song I would just listen to.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
In the background while I was working. Yeah, And that's
what I think works so well about.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
It well, And I think a big part of that
is so much because the first place that we experience
it is in a club, where that music feels so
familiar to us. So therefore, to see it play out
in all these different arenas in the way it's been
mixed for different settings kind of fascinating, you know, in
(31:53):
the same way a band will create different mixes for
their songs to be used in different types of settings.
So I love that. So I got to ask you this.
This episode does have a quick moment where we get
a flashback to see a little bit of Cassian's life
that helps us have a further insight into his psyche,
(32:18):
especially the resentment he has towards stormtroopers and the Empire.
And what did you think about the use of that
in this moment?
Speaker 4 (32:28):
Honestly, I think that it shows that what happens on
Niamos is simply the logical extension of what was already
going on the moment the Empire took over. They could
do it on a little mud ball, brick and mortar
place like Ferrixs because nobody paid attention to it. It's
just that now it's been standardized, so even the resort
(32:49):
towns are going to see it, and it might not
be a column of troopers turning around and shooting a
guy who's innocent, who was actually trying to stop the
problem from happening.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
He knew where the rock being thrown would.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
Lead, and he still dies because he just happen to
be standing there when they turn around. I think it's
it's very effective because it shows that that's just in
the DNA of a system like this.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
I couldn't agree with you more. It's one of those
moments where we're getting pieces of and Or's character. This
helps build into that, you know, it gives you one
more piece of the puzzle as to why he's going
to make the decisions he makes as we move throughout
the rest of this series and of course into the
(33:34):
second season and into Rogue one, which really shows the deafness.
I think of the writer Tony Gilroy here and his
brother just understanding what does it take to move a
character from one place to the next, right, and what
are the stops along the way that are really going
to drive home that the journey that we want this
(33:57):
character to be on to get them to this place
that you buy it by the end. And that's something
so very Star Wars. When George Lucas goes back to
do the prequels and to expound on the character of
Darth Vader, of course he does it in a way
that most people aren't expecting, right, But he's filling in
those places that help you to see, I can see
(34:19):
how these puzzle pieces fit together and why this character
makes the decisions that they do. And I think we're
doing that well in this show with and Or, But
we're also doing that on a whole other level with
just the entire galaxy making those decisions that it does,
where you can understand why people would choose to rebel,
(34:41):
you know. So here's rise up.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Here's a.
Speaker 4 (34:45):
Sort of like a parting question sort of thing. From
the moment that Rogue One came out, regardless of whether
you thought it was a good or very good movie,
to the greatest things in Slice Spread wherever your reaction was,
everybody responded well to an Or the character. Do you
think that Star Wars is the property the IP at
(35:07):
this point we are giving a very extensive backstory to
and Or, who technically is not the prime character in
Rogue one. Technically, do you think that this winds up
in any way subverting Rogue one to make it the
and Or story as opposed to the Gin story in
(35:29):
some way?
Speaker 1 (35:30):
I would say no. And the main reason I say
no to that is because Rogue one is Ginn's movie.
You know, we see everything from her perspective. We're growing
with her, we're moving with her. I think what this
just helps us then as we watch that film is
to be able to have that understanding of this character
(35:52):
that's alongside of her, and so that when he says
certain things they carry more weight and so to me,
you know it doesn't.
Speaker 4 (36:04):
And this is me leading you into the trap. But
maybe part of this story arc belonged to the Gin
character because we know there was some stuff with Sauw
that got cut out from Rogue one. There was stuff
where she was involved with him in the past. We
know that from Rogue one, and we know that and
Or is going to wind up having dealings with saw
(36:26):
and those sorts of things. Do you think that this
show obligates Lucasfilm to at least try to come up
with a one season show focused on Jin to get
her to the same point, like show the same trend
of Empire, but from her perspective as opposed to and Ors,
so that we at least have some sort of expanded
(36:48):
backstory for her, because we were cheated of it when
they redid Rogue One, because it was there. You know
that we've seen still photos of you know, of those moments,
and so I had very different hair, and I think
you know, does that basically has Disney slash Lucasfilm. Lucasfilm
(37:09):
slash Disney obligated itself to give us a gin show
like and Or at this point.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
I mean, if they wanted to do that, you know,
I'd have no problem with it. I think it would
be great. I don't think they're obligating themselves to do
that with this. I feel as though Rogue One still
(37:37):
does a very good job of representing the character of Jin,
who she is and why she makes the decisions that
she does. And I don't feel that she gets short
changed now by and Or having this and part of
that is because the storyline for and Or is more
(38:02):
interesting in and of itself because he is so much
more tied into the larger story. Gin isn't tied into
the larger story until the moment of Rogue one. But
and Or is because by the second season he is
going to become this character in the Rebellion who is
incredibly important, you know, in some ways the same way
(38:25):
that you know, we end up finding out that Harris
and Doula did you know that we didn't never know existed?
And so no, I don't feel that you have to
have a Gin story, And that would be my reasoning
is because her part in the story doesn't touch the
(38:48):
larger hole until we already see that in Rogue one,
whereas and Ors does fair enough, and it gives us
that opportunity then to explore all these other characters like
my Mathma and Sagerera and Luthin and whatnot.
Speaker 4 (39:01):
So so we've we've had a great time talking about
the you know, the deep dive stuff here like that
we love to do without delving so much into some
of the more technical stuff that I might harp on
from time to time. But you know, did you have
any like Is this a five star episode or did
you have anything that detracted from it where you were like, Eh,
(39:22):
you know, all of these things over here we've been
talking about are great, but these things over here I
could have done without or could have been trimmed.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
I think this is a four star episode. I think
that it's to me, it's really well paced. Even the
parts that we do spend with Cereal. There is something
interesting about where he ends up into this Standards, this
Imperial Standards warehouse. You know, it's like, looks like the
(39:50):
world's worst cubicle job I've ever seen. Uh, and and
so but I found everything it was happening because of
the response to this announcement so interesting. I mean, and
I even liked the way in which you know, they're
(40:11):
sitting there hit Cyril and his mother and he's having breakfast.
He's going to go to this interview and he's they're
watching you know, the vid screen or whatever they call
it in Star Wars, and the news is what's happened, right,
and that it's touching everyone and everywhere in everything, right,
this is this is the news of the day. And
(40:33):
so it really led into and of course we don't
spend too much time with Cyril. So that's great because
the rest of the stuff in this episode is fantastic,
from the Imperial response to the what we get with
Luthen and mon Mathma and her recruiting Tay and and
Or and Marva and Bix and like all that stuff
(40:53):
in the flashback. That's great. You know, it's not a
perfect episode because Cyril's still in it.
Speaker 4 (41:00):
So yeah, see again to stress, to stress, it is
not the fault of the actor at all.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
It's not he's not He's great.
Speaker 4 (41:09):
He's Kyle Seller is doing a great job as Cyril.
He's doing exactly what he's supposed to do. I think
it's just they're having trouble figuring out how to fit
him into the story. I know where it's pointed. So
him winding up in the cubicle, this is what I
think is one of those missed opportunities in terms of
story pacing, because when and Or's in prison, Cyril getting
(41:31):
thrown into the cubicle feels like it should have synced
up there. I should have seen him in a cubicle.
Good point when and Or gets into the prison, so
you can understand the Empire in a prison. Just in
two different ways. Yeah, and that I think is downside
as well. I think if this, if these were all
a bunch of mini movies instead of cut up into
(41:52):
arbitrary hour low not arbitrary, but like cut up into
you know, fifty minute episodes each and instead played as
a movie, I honestly think that flow would be more
apparent and the the comparisons more uh default for a
casual viewer as well, because I think I do. I
think that the the the trick with the show like
(42:14):
this is the casual viewer is not going to plug
into this the same way that the dedicated viewer will,
and that that's always going to be a challenge.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
That's uh that that's faced.
Speaker 4 (42:26):
When you were when you've got something where it's obligated
to point in a specific direction, to tie into something
that already exists in the IP, and you know that
that's a larger debate for some other time. I guess
I four stars I think is a fair rating for
this episode because of the fact that I I just
(42:48):
dig the ib stuff so much. Yeah, and I love Yeah,
I love the very pointed commentary about the sentencing stands
aspect of this justice system really speaks to a specific
point that is very very apt for.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Yeah, it's very point. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (43:16):
But if people want to point things that you Matt
to discuss this episode, where can they find you online?
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Well, be careful where you point that stick. You can
find me all over social media under the name Matt
Rushing zero two. Of course here on the network, you'll
find me on our posts with Gray Kaufman, talked about
every single chapter the Harry Potter series. You can also
find me over on the TFM network with a bunch
of shows once the six oh two Club. John's a
frequent guest over there, and we talked about all of
(43:42):
those franchises that we love outside of Star Trek. But
then of course there's a lot of great Star Trek
talk over there that I'm doing with my good friend
Chris Jones. So I hope that you'll check out all
of that. But John, you know, if people want to
express their love for the ISB and you know just
how well they do things, and you know your affinity
(44:05):
for them, and maybe why we should worry about you
where is that?
Speaker 4 (44:08):
Well, you should worry about me because of how much
I have a problem with the fact that they never
call out Admiral Yolauren by specific names so that I
can sit there and be like, come on, come on,
come on, Clone Wars tie in. But you can find
me as Castle Junkie out there Kesseljunkie dot Com. And
that's you know, kessel Junkie has been my name online
since I think it was like two thousand and three
or something like that. Anyway, you can find me out there,
(44:31):
and you can find me right here on the network,
co hosting a show called house Lights where we look
at the work of directors and who knows, who knows,
Maybe we'll have a house of Tony Gilroy at some
point in the future if he just expands his his
library of directorial work. At some point, I'd be willing
to do it. I'd be willing to give it a try.
(44:52):
So anyway, that's where you can find us on these
different things. And I know that we're about to get
a mandatory six year sentencing if this episode goes any longer.
So Master Rushing, I think it's time to close these negotiations.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
John negotiations are place. Join the Revolution, Join the Nerd Party.
Welcome to the ned Palty.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hi.
Speaker 3 (00:06):
This is Nick Anstasu, story editor on Star Wars, The
Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch, and you are
listening to Aggressive Negotiations.
Speaker 4 (00:23):
It's another beautiful beachside day here on Aggressive Negotiations, the
Star Wars podcast that explores everywhere in the Star Wars universe,
uncovering that which must be uncovered, like grains of sand
on a beach. We are examining all of the facets
that are often overlooked and passed by by other viewers
(00:44):
and podcasts. I am one of your hosts, Jedi Master
John Mills. Joining me on this luxurious podcast is Jedi
Master Matthew Rushing. Matt, do you have your sunscreen ready?
As you get a drink served you by what looks
like in ant eater giggling on the sandy shores of
(01:06):
Amos Neamos Niamos.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
How do you pronounce this planet anyway? I'm not entirely sure.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Hey, John, can you give me one of those like,
uh yeah, one of the the you know, uh, the
curly straw ones?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Yeah? Uh no, No, I can't, because come on, man,
it's the name of it.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
It's that it's a specific straw to this planet, and
I can't. They won't serve it to me until I
figure out how to pronounce the name of this planet.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
So that's where I need my Wow.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Good luck with that, because I don't even know namos neomos. Yeah,
it's but it's really nice here. Uh, you know, it's
pretty Yeah, it kind of reminds me of that that
planet and uh and Skeleton Crew. You know, this is
the tropical planet, I guess, or the beach planet and
you know the one Skeleton Crew we had the planet
(01:55):
with the hot springs, you know, and the and the
hot mud maths and stuff. So man, we're really we're
really diving into some cool places here in Disney Star
Wars or so we are going to be talking about
and or a season one, episode seven announcement, and I'm
really excited to be diving into this one. But before
(02:16):
we do that, maybe you're like, how you know, I
love these guys, They're great. I've been listening for a
long time. What could I do something special for them? Well,
start rating and review on an Apple podcasts would be
extremely helpful. We even read those out on the show,
and you can also rate things on Spotify. So maybe
(02:37):
you're a Spotify listener and you listen to your podcast there,
give us a rating there too, help people find us.
But John, So this episode is interesting because as it starts,
this kind of like next arc in some ways too,
it's almost like a bridge because it's really about the
fallout of this massive rebel attack, which seems to be
(03:02):
one of the largest rebel attacks that has happened up
unto this point. And in fact, the episode even called
announcement in some ways is the sense of saying, Hey,
we're truly here, We're not going away, And so I
wanted to just start here because it has so much
to do with everybody else's response to this, but it's
(03:25):
the imperial response that kind of then drives everything else
that we see really in this episode. And so what
do you think and what did you think of what
we see of the ISB response, you know, the way
the emperor himself responds, and then even the internal you know,
(03:48):
bickering that is now going back and forth inside the
ISB because of all of this.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
Well, I mean, as I've said many many times during
the history of this show, I am an absolutely nerd
for bureaucratic, political machinations, and so the ISB stuff is
right up my alley. That like, that type of stuff
is a love letter to me. While everybody else was
complaining about the Galactic Senate in episode one, I was
the one sitting there saying, yeah, yeah, give me more.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Who's filing emotion?
Speaker 4 (04:17):
Yes, exactly, That's exactly how I would manipulate this situation.
It's a benefit of growing up in the DC metro area.
You're sort of steeped in this nonsense. I think it's great.
I think that the ISB stuff is a wonderful way
to start because it immediately gets in there. It starts
off the arc, and I think it's a great way
(04:38):
to start this conversation, specifically because I think you wind
up having the exact type of conversation you would have
talking about a George Lucas type of scenario or a
story point, which is chicken and egg. The Empire is
a bad thing. It's basically just a revamped version of
(04:59):
the report public. The Republic had its problems. We saw
that all the way at the beginning of this show.
We've seen it in the other materials, and the Emperor
really just said, okay, the machinery is in place, I'm
just going to use it with ill intent because good,
you know, no system is completely bad. It's the people
in it that make it awful sort of thing. So well, okay,
(05:21):
that's not true. There are bad systems anyway, you know
what I'm trying to say. Anyway, I think that you
wind up with that chicken and egg argument because you
have Dedra recognizing and saying we are reacting exactly the
way that is going to make the rebels popular for
doing this. It's going to make people sympathize with them,
and it echoes what is going to come in episode
(05:44):
four with Princess Leah saying the more you tighten your
grip Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.
It's this whole idea of how much response is too
much response? And I think it's a very interesting one
because you even obviously have an echo of the American
response to something like nine to eleven. Now, obviously al
(06:07):
Donnie's a heist. Nine to eleven is a different thing,
But it's the question of proportion. Should you be enacting
these sweeping changes to the laws, Should you be enacting
these sweeping surveillance rules, should should you be reacting like
this to what happened or are you actually making the
(06:29):
situation worse? Yeah, and that's always a worthwhile type of
discussion to have.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yeah, I mean, I think this is an interesting thing
because the response here, because we get you Lauren here
saying I've spoken to the emperor, and basically the Emperor said,
we're bringing the hammer. We're treating this like everything's a
nail and we're going to hit it with a hammer.
We're going to hit it hard, and we're going to
just crush it. And it makes me think, because you know,
(06:57):
we haven't seen everything that's happened, and in these dark times,
we don't know about all of the uprisings that have
happened that the Empire has put down in the way
that it's worked out. But I almost get the sense
here that the Emperor has spent so much time seeing
these nascent rebellions being able to be easily put down,
(07:22):
he's miscalculated as to what this is. And because it
seems I'm just guessing, but that previously, putting down the
hammer has been the thing that can get rid of
a rebellion. And yet by the misreading here of this situation,
(07:45):
you know, like you mentioned, the only one who's reading
this situation correctly is Dedra. She's the one who's been
already placing these pieces together from this puzzle that she's
been pulling from, and she's got enough of the picture
to realize that, you know, this is exactly what the
(08:05):
rebels want. This is this is this is the thing
that they're going In fact, the response that we're getting
is exactly what Lutheren says he wants because he wants
the tight the titan grip so people flee or want
to flee, and and so, yes, I agree with you.
It's it just makes it so interesting because you know,
(08:28):
the whole point of the show is is obviously to
grow the character of and or to get him to
the point we'd see him in Rogue one. But he's
a he's the microcosm of the macro, right, and so
the the experience is that he's going through, how he's
dealing with all of these situations, and the growth that
(08:49):
he's going to have is going to represent a lot
of the growth that then the rest of the galaxy
is experiencing, which you know, we see the way those
parallels play out. By the end of the season too.
So that's what makes all of this I think so
fascinating because then as well, the other thing that stored
(09:10):
out to me about the isb is it seems as
though this backstabbing and this bickering and all this stuff
has kind of been allowed to to kind of flourish there,
and yet this director kind of puts the kebash on that.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
And you know, it's.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Almost as like he's gotten tired of wrangling the children
and he's ready for more adults to be here who
are willing to take some risks, and the risk is
something like Dedre who's willing to put in work and
bring in actual interesting ideas.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
Then but see, I like that you, I like you
brought up the director. But there are two things right.
First off, to address the director directly, the actor is fantastic.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
In the role.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
I love him. I think he's wonderful. And the thing
that's unsettling is he really is, in a lot of
ways exactly the type of boss you want in any situation,
because somebody will say something and you know, when the
guy is challenging Dejra, he goes, do you think this
is the form to bring it up in? I do sir, okay,
give me your your data, and she and then she
(10:22):
says something in defense, and he says thesis. And all
he's doing is facilitating the discussion. Yeah, and then saying, okay,
you have data. You know what, I'm going to take
it away from you. I'm going to give it to her.
This is nothing personal. They're deciding to take it personally. Yeah,
he's just saying, okay, Well, that's actually an interesting thing.
(10:42):
That's why I love when he looks at somebody and
he says, thesis, tell me why you think that. Okay,
I'm willing to listen. He's actually a really good boss
from that perspective. He's in a terrible machine, but he's
a great boss. But you mentioned Lutheran. I know this.
Let's keep this part of the conversation going because they're like,
(11:03):
I've been very guilty in the show so far of
descending into particulars about whether I like the pacing, whether
my dreams of finally opening with a real deep dive
on Cyril's life is fulfilled in this episode or not.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
But I think that.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
The really worthwhile thread to pull at is being longtime
Star Wars fans. There's always the sort of question about
Saugerere's partisans.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
They're terrible. They do these awful things. We've seen them
in action.
Speaker 4 (11:37):
They strike hard, and they make the empire clamp down
even harder.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
But that's what Luthen wants to.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
So are we in a situation like are we set
to by default sympathize with man Mathma's reaction to what
has happened to say no, let me keep doing this Luthan,
I think is revealed in this episode of putting the
(12:08):
question in front of us. Somebody likes he's somebody like saw,
I'm going to make things terrible for everybody because it
will benefit me in the long run, because I believe
that'll make the rebellion grow. Whether Saul has that same
type of focus, we'll have to see. But do you
think we're just predisposed as longer term Star Wars fans
to sympathize with man Mathma, or do you think that
(12:30):
there's something compelling about Luthen's argument where we start to
see why man Mathma couldn't work within the system, why
Lea can't work within the system, and neither can Bail.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
I think the most interesting thing about this is is
the Luthan says to mon Mathma something akin to there
are going to be no more rules. And what he's
trying to get across to man is the fact that
they're the Empire hasn't been playing by any rules. It's
put on the veneer of rules, but it doesn't play
(13:03):
by any rules. It does what it wants when it wants,
and it gets away with it, right, And so I
think that what Luthen is trying to get across to
her is saying, hey, we start, we have to start
playing more by those rules. And yet at the same
time it maybe it gives too much away for where
(13:23):
the show goes, but it's like the Luthan is willing
to be the guy who does that to damn his soul,
to play by no rules, but he's he doesn't necessarily
expect every single person in the rebellion to play like that, right,
He's willing to be the worst of the worst, but
he doesn't seem to be necessarily expecting everybody to muddy
(13:47):
himself to the point that he is going to, if
that makes sense.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
But that leads to the ultimate discussion point that is
there in perpetuity with anything? Is there such a thing
as too far. Yeah, we agree the Empire is a
bad system. But let's take, for instance, let's say wherever
you want to put in your brain, I'm not going
to reveal my own biases or yours or anything like that.
(14:11):
Somebody decides something as a bad system, well if they
then decide that any means are appropriate, you know, like
it's it's sort of like a in principle discussion. Sure,
I can adapt my you know, my means to any situation,
(14:32):
but is man mathma right in someone like like that?
That's the sort of thing that I that, like, I
think is just such a a George Lucas type of
thing to ask. There are heroes on both sides, evil
as everywhere. That is such a controversial way to talk
about it nowadays, that that those two sentences in the
(14:54):
title crawl of episode three Revenge of the Sith are
controversial by that type of standards, But Luthen is living
by that type of standard, where he's saying, YEA, they
got their heroes and their evil. I'm going to be
evil on this side so our heroes can do what
they need to do.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Yeah, and I think that you've just nailed one of
the main reasons as to why. I think that and
or is exactly the type of thing that George Lucas
would love, because it fits so well with what you
(15:34):
just said, you know, the the Revenge of the Sith
opening with that that crawl. This is continuing to play
out that question in a very real way, and the
cost of rebellion freedom, you know, how do we obtain that,
especially with a machine that is willing to basically do
(15:58):
whatever it takes and do whatever it wants with no apologies.
And so I think that's the one of the interesting things.
I think though, that the interesting dynamic then between mon
Mathma and Luthan is that what we have, what we
are seeing here, specifically with mon Mathma, is that Luthan
(16:19):
is trying to slowly get her to realize what this
is going to take right uh and and and that
it is going to be a much more messy business
than she thought possible. Yes, and and and and whether
or not again he he would think that she needs
(16:42):
to be him. Basically, she does have to understand the
cost of this. This this could cost them everything.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
And I think that she's almost been hoping that that's
not going to be the case.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
And I think she just really realizes this. This episode
is helping her have her eyes opened. This could get
really nasty, really fast. And then her response as she
goes to her friend and she actually I think she's
emboldened in a sense because especially when she realizes that
there are more people like her than she thought, it's
(17:20):
almost as though that whole situation gives her the freedom
then to really, Okay, I'm going to take this massive,
major risk. And her interaction with Tay is really the thing.
I think that that kind of seals her willingness to
(17:43):
start playing the game very, very hard and risk everything.
Because as much as she hated that conversation with Luthan,
I think it kind of galvanizes her as well, which
you know.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
Yeah, but to come back to the Luthen thing, do
you think that all right? Conversely, because I'm sitting there
is like, are we predisposed you know, to side with
man Mathma about you know, the way she's working with
things because we're longtime fans, et cetera, et cetera. But
then to flip it on it said and asking it,
you know, just from approaching a different angle, do you
think that we're predisposed to agree with Luthen because we know,
(18:24):
especially as longtime fans, because well, we have not encountered
the Emperor or Vader in this series at this point.
We haven't seen anybody get fried or chopped up or
mind wiped or anything like that. Are we predisposed to
side with Luthen because we know this isn't just a
terrible system that they're up against, but against again the
(18:46):
devil himself running everything. Are we predisposed to hear Luthen's
discussion about being an extremist and saying, well, yeah, obviously
we know who's at the top of this chain.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
It's sidious invader.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
Of course, you got to be a you know, and
the inquisitors are active at you know, up until around
this time.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
You know.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
Like like, there are a whole lot of things that
I think you have to sit there and wonder, right, like,
are we predisposed to give a lot of grace to
Lutheran's argument because we know firsthand who the emperor really is.
He's not just some savvy politician.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
I mean, I think that's the human element in the story,
and I think there is something instinctual to us that
responds to people being oppressed in this way where we
want to see justice done, we want to see you know,
(19:44):
freedom reign. And there's just something in so many of
us where what we're willing to and this is the question, right,
what are you willing to do or what are you
willing to allow to have happen to be able to
attain that? What is going to be okay to make
this happen or or let this happen. And you know,
(20:07):
I think that's that's the question that this show is
dealing with and asking the audience to have to deal with.
And it's you know, obviously pieces of that are in
rogue one, you know from the very beginning where you know,
and Or shoots that guide so he can get away.
(20:28):
I mean, again, these questions just keep continuing. The joke
has been made about destroying the Death Star and all
the people that died on it that you know, they're
just they're doing a job or whatever. But that's a
that's a legitimate thing in the sense of like you
think about how many people died, what is it missible
and what is permissible? Uh in a state of war
like this, especially against the machine. The size of the
(20:51):
empire is a great question, and and and that's what
this episode is really playing with.
Speaker 4 (20:57):
Well, the thing that I like in You know, there
are things about this episode that don't play particularly well for.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Me, but I don't I don't even want to bother
talking about them.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
I want to keep going on this road here because
I think that the episode also to address your part
of the statement there about what's permissible and who's working
in the system and everything. I think a system like
the one that's being portrayed here, they show that it
(21:31):
attracts as into.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Roles of authority.
Speaker 4 (21:35):
Yeah, and you see that at the end that trooper
is on a power trip, Yes, exactly, giving and and
Or has done nothing wrong, and I think that the
truly terrific thing is it. Then in the moment where
and Or gets arrested by any metric, this guy is
literally a murderer. He should go to prison fair enough.
(21:59):
He shoots the guy in cold blood in the he
doesn't shoot him on purpose, I mean guy, he shoots
the guy shoots the other guy. Yes, but I'm a
guy whose neck he breaks is an accident. That one
I'm willing to be like, Look, that was just i'll
give you a probation sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
The other guy. I'm like, that's.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
That's pretty cold. So by a lot of metrics, he's
committed a crime. We know he you know, he's remorseful
for it, but you know, anyway, So I think the
the episode does a great job of showing how even
the low level person a system like this engenders the
worst nature people. Yes, yes, yes, And I think it
(22:41):
also does a great job of really doing what science
fiction slash space fantasy should be doing, which is, you
see how a standardized or industrialized justice system is more
about processing than it is about justice. Because let's remove
(23:04):
his past from it. He's literally just going to the
store and a guy profiles him, and that guy's given
the benefit of the doubt because he's wearing that trooper uniform,
the short trooper. This is a short trooper, right that
we're gonna see rogue. Yeah, yeah, And and Or winds
up getting just consumed by the machine because they've just
(23:26):
got too many court cases to process and it's just
let's just get him out the door as quick as
we can. And then we see immediately these reforms the
ISB is talking about come into effect with the expanded
sentencing because of what he's accused for is underneath the
was it the PRD? So I want to say to you,
(23:49):
I know it made me feel really uncomfortable watching that
whole thing play out.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
I'm not unique in that, right, Oh.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
No, I mean, because I think that's the fear of
anyone is a miscarriage of justice, right, the system that
doesn't actually care about anybody in it, and they are
just there to perpetuate the system, and they don't care
who's affected or how they're affected. There's no actual justice
(24:20):
being handed out. That's not what it's about, right, It's
just about this is the system, this is what we do,
and you're just caught in it and now you're just
another cog in the wheel.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Right.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
And No, I think that is the thing that this
show does so well is that it's not necessarily trying
to pinpoint anything specifically in our society, but it makes
you think about things in our society. But it also
makes you think about history and how we have had
this exact thing thing happened. I mean you think about,
(24:55):
especially in World War Two, people picked up and thrown
into the German concentration camps or the gulags, right because
they looked a certain way or they acted a certain
way or whatever, and they were just thrown into the
system and chucked away so we didn't have to deal
with them. And that's exactly what the Empire is doing here.
And so I think that you're absolutely right in the
(25:18):
way that you were feeling watching because I was feeling
that way too. The thing that I was really struck by, though,
is the way in which and Or's character, and I
mean character as a person really shines through in this episode.
Because this guy has seemed to be somebody who's got
kind of an amorality to him. But what does he do.
He goes back to Pharyx. He wants Marva to come
(25:39):
with him, Like who he cares about in this universe
is her, because she's the one who took care of him.
She saved him, so he comes back to basically save her.
He also he goes to Bicks and he pays back
the money that he owes to all of these people.
He doesn't have to do that. Nobody has to know
he has any money. He could just disappear forever and
(26:02):
nobody know. And yet there is something in his character
to which he is not just a shyster in somebody
who's trying to take advantage of people and get away
with it. He truly has some morality to him, which
I find incredibly fascinating. And then on top of that
that confrontation with Mara at the end, when he leaves,
(26:24):
she has been emboldened by a thing she doesn't realize
her adoptive son has been a part of. And in
some ways her response is partly on and or shoulders
because it leads her then to make a choice about
how she's going to live and what she's going to do.
But it's also again, she's just a microcosm of the
(26:45):
larger macro, which is incredibly fascinating.
Speaker 4 (26:49):
By the way, one thing I wanted to ask you about,
just to make sure I'm not jumping the gun, because
I know that I don't spend a lot of time
on Reddit forums or anything like that, but it's pretty
clear that the Empire is at least spreading a story
about what happened to the garrison that's far beyond the
(27:09):
heist that they're talking about, because they talk about the
destruction of the garrison and.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
It's yes, yes, no, they're making it sound like it
was armageddon happened on this planet.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
So here's the question is do you think that they
bombed the garrison to make it look terrible and cover
up the missing money.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
I think they bombed the garrison so that they could
have everybody there under that command that they needed dead too,
so nobody could actually tell the real story.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Right.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
I think that's sweeping sayings under the galactic rug.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Right.
Speaker 4 (27:46):
Yeah, I wanted to heap praise it because I've enjoyed
staying focused on the positives here, the deep dive stuff,
because that's what we're known for sort of thing. And yeah,
it could create some discordance when we get to like
final thoughts and ratings and stuff like that. But one
thing I wanted to heat praise on the relaxing Resort
(28:08):
Town soundtrack music that then plays over the end credits.
Is this the best piece of world building background music
we've gotten since Cantina Band and or Java's Palace.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
So I'm glad you asked that, because one of the
most interesting things about that song is the way in
which Nicholas Brittel utilizes it. It is the nelmos and
it's it comes in different mixes, So there's a Morlana
club mix you'll find it on the soundtrack and there
(28:48):
are other mixes, and it continues to play in a
different mix. In fact, you heard it a little bit
at the party at Monmothmas. I mean you'll hear it
throughout the entire the season, and in each place it
kind of reflects where you are, and it's you know,
mixed in a slightly different way. Like it just it
(29:08):
really nails that sense that we're in a place where
most people aren't thinking about anything that's happening in the galaxy.
They're just here to enjoy themselves, you know, kind of
like Canto bite right, like you're just here completely forget
your troubles, so don't bother me. I'm just here to
get a drink.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
And no.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
I like the music choice. I think it's really interesting.
But I love the way in which they then utilize
that this whole season, so that in each place it
has a slightly different feel, which kind of gives you
a slightly either uneasy feeling or kind of like ah feeling,
(29:46):
And it's just, you know, it's good stuff. It's a
good choice, right to have that music reflect all of
these different moods and vibes throughout the season.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
And the thing is, I'm not meaning to throw any
shade toward Clone Wars, because I think that Kevin Kiner
with Hondo's Hideout has some club music playing in there
that I think is quite quite good, because I've started
a Clone Wars rewatch recently and I caught that piece
again and I was like, oh, this has got a
good vibe.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
But I think Zero, so do I I love?
Speaker 3 (30:28):
I love?
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Why haven't we gotten a black series figure to him?
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Why do I not have a character poster of Zero?
Is my question?
Speaker 4 (30:35):
But you know what, you know, what, if they're going
to bring back Darth Maul, you can bring back Zero,
you cowards.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
You can do it.
Speaker 4 (30:44):
But I think what really works about it too is
there is a vibe, especially with the way it plays
over the end credits. To go back to the CANTEENA
in the original Star Wars, it's basically like a jazz tune,
and with this, this sounds like the electronica type of
stuff from Chemical Brothers or Dust Brothers or daft Punk
(31:06):
that people like, you know, get funky or even you know,
something like blurred lines, you know, with with Robin Think
and right yeah Ferrell and everything like that. Like it's
got that sort of techno vibe to it. That works
because it's something familiar. It's the way you love to
say it, familiar but different, and it's like, this is
(31:27):
a song I would just listen to.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
In the background while I was working. Yeah, And that's
what I think works so well about.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
It well, And I think a big part of that
is so much because the first place that we experience
it is in a club, where that music feels so
familiar to us. So therefore, to see it play out
in all these different arenas in the way it's been
mixed for different settings kind of fascinating, you know, in
(31:53):
the same way a band will create different mixes for
their songs to be used in different types of settings.
So I love that. So I got to ask you this.
This episode does have a quick moment where we get
a flashback to see a little bit of Cassian's life
that helps us have a further insight into his psyche,
(32:18):
especially the resentment he has towards stormtroopers and the Empire.
And what did you think about the use of that
in this moment?
Speaker 4 (32:28):
Honestly, I think that it shows that what happens on
Niamos is simply the logical extension of what was already
going on the moment the Empire took over. They could
do it on a little mud ball, brick and mortar
place like Ferrixs because nobody paid attention to it. It's
just that now it's been standardized, so even the resort
(32:49):
towns are going to see it, and it might not
be a column of troopers turning around and shooting a
guy who's innocent, who was actually trying to stop the
problem from happening.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
He knew where the rock being thrown would.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
Lead, and he still dies because he just happen to
be standing there when they turn around. I think it's
it's very effective because it shows that that's just in
the DNA of a system like this.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
I couldn't agree with you more. It's one of those
moments where we're getting pieces of and Or's character. This
helps build into that, you know, it gives you one
more piece of the puzzle as to why he's going
to make the decisions he makes as we move throughout
the rest of this series and of course into the
(33:34):
second season and into Rogue one, which really shows the deafness.
I think of the writer Tony Gilroy here and his
brother just understanding what does it take to move a
character from one place to the next, right, and what
are the stops along the way that are really going
to drive home that the journey that we want this
(33:57):
character to be on to get them to this place
that you buy it by the end. And that's something
so very Star Wars. When George Lucas goes back to
do the prequels and to expound on the character of
Darth Vader, of course he does it in a way
that most people aren't expecting, right, But he's filling in
those places that help you to see, I can see
(34:19):
how these puzzle pieces fit together and why this character
makes the decisions that they do. And I think we're
doing that well in this show with and Or, But
we're also doing that on a whole other level with
just the entire galaxy making those decisions that it does,
where you can understand why people would choose to rebel,
(34:41):
you know. So here's rise up.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Here's a.
Speaker 4 (34:45):
Sort of like a parting question sort of thing. From
the moment that Rogue One came out, regardless of whether
you thought it was a good or very good movie,
to the greatest things in Slice Spread wherever your reaction was,
everybody responded well to an Or the character. Do you
think that Star Wars is the property the IP at
(35:07):
this point we are giving a very extensive backstory to
and Or, who technically is not the prime character in
Rogue one. Technically, do you think that this winds up
in any way subverting Rogue one to make it the
and Or story as opposed to the Gin story in
(35:29):
some way?
Speaker 1 (35:30):
I would say no. And the main reason I say
no to that is because Rogue one is Ginn's movie.
You know, we see everything from her perspective. We're growing
with her, we're moving with her. I think what this
just helps us then as we watch that film is
to be able to have that understanding of this character
(35:52):
that's alongside of her, and so that when he says
certain things they carry more weight and so to me,
you know it doesn't.
Speaker 4 (36:04):
And this is me leading you into the trap. But
maybe part of this story arc belonged to the Gin
character because we know there was some stuff with Sauw
that got cut out from Rogue one. There was stuff
where she was involved with him in the past. We
know that from Rogue one, and we know that and
Or is going to wind up having dealings with saw
(36:26):
and those sorts of things. Do you think that this
show obligates Lucasfilm to at least try to come up
with a one season show focused on Jin to get
her to the same point, like show the same trend
of Empire, but from her perspective as opposed to and Ors,
so that we at least have some sort of expanded
(36:48):
backstory for her, because we were cheated of it when
they redid Rogue One, because it was there. You know
that we've seen still photos of you know, of those moments,
and so I had very different hair, and I think
you know, does that basically has Disney slash Lucasfilm. Lucasfilm
(37:09):
slash Disney obligated itself to give us a gin show
like and Or at this point.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
I mean, if they wanted to do that, you know,
I'd have no problem with it. I think it would
be great. I don't think they're obligating themselves to do
that with this. I feel as though Rogue One still
(37:37):
does a very good job of representing the character of Jin,
who she is and why she makes the decisions that
she does. And I don't feel that she gets short
changed now by and Or having this and part of
that is because the storyline for and Or is more
(38:02):
interesting in and of itself because he is so much
more tied into the larger story. Gin isn't tied into
the larger story until the moment of Rogue one. But
and Or is because by the second season he is
going to become this character in the Rebellion who is
incredibly important, you know, in some ways the same way
(38:25):
that you know, we end up finding out that Harris
and Doula did you know that we didn't never know existed?
And so no, I don't feel that you have to
have a Gin story, And that would be my reasoning
is because her part in the story doesn't touch the
(38:48):
larger hole until we already see that in Rogue one,
whereas and Ors does fair enough, and it gives us
that opportunity then to explore all these other characters like
my Mathma and Sagerera and Luthin and whatnot.
Speaker 4 (39:01):
So so we've we've had a great time talking about
the you know, the deep dive stuff here like that
we love to do without delving so much into some
of the more technical stuff that I might harp on
from time to time. But you know, did you have
any like Is this a five star episode or did
you have anything that detracted from it where you were like, Eh,
(39:22):
you know, all of these things over here we've been
talking about are great, but these things over here I
could have done without or could have been trimmed.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
I think this is a four star episode. I think
that it's to me, it's really well paced. Even the
parts that we do spend with Cereal. There is something
interesting about where he ends up into this Standards, this
Imperial Standards warehouse. You know, it's like, looks like the
(39:50):
world's worst cubicle job I've ever seen. Uh, and and
so but I found everything it was happening because of
the response to this announcement so interesting. I mean, and
I even liked the way in which you know, they're
(40:11):
sitting there hit Cyril and his mother and he's having breakfast.
He's going to go to this interview and he's they're
watching you know, the vid screen or whatever they call
it in Star Wars, and the news is what's happened, right,
and that it's touching everyone and everywhere in everything, right,
this is this is the news of the day. And
(40:33):
so it really led into and of course we don't
spend too much time with Cyril. So that's great because
the rest of the stuff in this episode is fantastic,
from the Imperial response to the what we get with
Luthen and mon Mathma and her recruiting Tay and and
Or and Marva and Bix and like all that stuff
(40:53):
in the flashback. That's great. You know, it's not a
perfect episode because Cyril's still in it.
Speaker 4 (41:00):
So yeah, see again to stress, to stress, it is
not the fault of the actor at all.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
It's not he's not He's great.
Speaker 4 (41:09):
He's Kyle Seller is doing a great job as Cyril.
He's doing exactly what he's supposed to do. I think
it's just they're having trouble figuring out how to fit
him into the story. I know where it's pointed. So
him winding up in the cubicle, this is what I
think is one of those missed opportunities in terms of
story pacing, because when and Or's in prison, Cyril getting
(41:31):
thrown into the cubicle feels like it should have synced
up there. I should have seen him in a cubicle.
Good point when and Or gets into the prison, so
you can understand the Empire in a prison. Just in
two different ways. Yeah, and that I think is downside
as well. I think if this, if these were all
a bunch of mini movies instead of cut up into
(41:52):
arbitrary hour low not arbitrary, but like cut up into
you know, fifty minute episodes each and instead played as
a movie, I honestly think that flow would be more
apparent and the the comparisons more uh default for a
casual viewer as well, because I think I do. I
think that the the the trick with the show like
(42:14):
this is the casual viewer is not going to plug
into this the same way that the dedicated viewer will,
and that that's always going to be a challenge.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
That's uh that that's faced.
Speaker 4 (42:26):
When you were when you've got something where it's obligated
to point in a specific direction, to tie into something
that already exists in the IP, and you know that
that's a larger debate for some other time. I guess
I four stars I think is a fair rating for
this episode because of the fact that I I just
(42:48):
dig the ib stuff so much. Yeah, and I love Yeah,
I love the very pointed commentary about the sentencing stands
aspect of this justice system really speaks to a specific
point that is very very apt for.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Yeah, it's very point. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (43:16):
But if people want to point things that you Matt
to discuss this episode, where can they find you online?
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Well, be careful where you point that stick. You can
find me all over social media under the name Matt
Rushing zero two. Of course here on the network, you'll
find me on our posts with Gray Kaufman, talked about
every single chapter the Harry Potter series. You can also
find me over on the TFM network with a bunch
of shows once the six oh two Club. John's a
frequent guest over there, and we talked about all of
(43:42):
those franchises that we love outside of Star Trek. But
then of course there's a lot of great Star Trek
talk over there that I'm doing with my good friend
Chris Jones. So I hope that you'll check out all
of that. But John, you know, if people want to
express their love for the ISB and you know just
how well they do things, and you know your affinity
(44:05):
for them, and maybe why we should worry about you
where is that?
Speaker 4 (44:08):
Well, you should worry about me because of how much
I have a problem with the fact that they never
call out Admiral Yolauren by specific names so that I
can sit there and be like, come on, come on,
come on, Clone Wars tie in. But you can find
me as Castle Junkie out there Kesseljunkie dot Com. And
that's you know, kessel Junkie has been my name online
since I think it was like two thousand and three
or something like that. Anyway, you can find me out there,
(44:31):
and you can find me right here on the network,
co hosting a show called house Lights where we look
at the work of directors and who knows, who knows,
Maybe we'll have a house of Tony Gilroy at some
point in the future if he just expands his his
library of directorial work. At some point, I'd be willing
to do it. I'd be willing to give it a try.
(44:52):
So anyway, that's where you can find us on these
different things. And I know that we're about to get
a mandatory six year sentencing if this episode goes any longer.
So Master Rushing, I think it's time to close these negotiations.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
John negotiations are place. Join the Revolution, Join the Nerd Party.
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Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!