April 1, 2025 • 46 mins
Andor: Season One - Narkina 5.
Matt and John continue their S1 rewatch with the 8th episode of Star Wars: Andor. Andor, on the run from his past, was arrested for a crime he didn't commit and now we get to see the Imperial Justice System from the inside. In “Narkina 5,” questions about industrial prisons, humane treatment, and scales of justice are asked. But does the audience get satisfaction from the exercise, or frustration in a lack of resolution?
This is a recap discussion so big, @TheJediMasters have enlisted the aid of their friend and fellow The Nerd Party host, Darren Moser to talk over the nuances of justice meted out in a Galaxy Far, Far Away.
Host
John Mills and Matthew Rushing
Love listening to Aggressive Negotiations, a Star Wars podcast that’s different from all the rest? Then you’ll love The Nerd Party, a one-of-a-kind podcast network focused on all the best of Star Trek, the magical realm of the Harry Potter books, the works of the best film directors in history, the latest from international film and comic stars, and so much more!
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Twitter: @TheJediMasters
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Email: http://www.thenerdparty.com/contact
Subscribe in Apple Podcasts
Matt and John continue their S1 rewatch with the 8th episode of Star Wars: Andor. Andor, on the run from his past, was arrested for a crime he didn't commit and now we get to see the Imperial Justice System from the inside. In “Narkina 5,” questions about industrial prisons, humane treatment, and scales of justice are asked. But does the audience get satisfaction from the exercise, or frustration in a lack of resolution?
This is a recap discussion so big, @TheJediMasters have enlisted the aid of their friend and fellow The Nerd Party host, Darren Moser to talk over the nuances of justice meted out in a Galaxy Far, Far Away.
Host
John Mills and Matthew Rushing
Love listening to Aggressive Negotiations, a Star Wars podcast that’s different from all the rest? Then you’ll love The Nerd Party, a one-of-a-kind podcast network focused on all the best of Star Trek, the magical realm of the Harry Potter books, the works of the best film directors in history, the latest from international film and comic stars, and so much more!
Send us your feedback!
Twitter: @TheJediMasters
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheNerdParty/
Email: http://www.thenerdparty.com/contact
Subscribe in Apple Podcasts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the ned Palty.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hi, this is Nick and Astasu, story editor on Star Wars,
the Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch, and you
are listening to aggressive negotiations.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Well, hello, and welcome to aggressive negotiations. That little slice
of Star Wars Heaven coming at you here from the
ISB headquarters, where we have sadly got to report A
lot of stuff is going down. And I just say
stuff because this is a family show. But with me
as he is every single week is none other than
(00:45):
Jedi Master John Mills. John, how are we going to
respond to all the things that are just going wrong
in the Empire?
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Right now?
Speaker 4 (00:53):
Well, before I ask you for your thesis, Agent Rushing,
I am going to introduce our spe visiting dignitary from
the ISB brass fresh from his meeting with Emperor Palpatine himself,
Darren Moser, fellow podcaster here on the house Lights Network.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Oh I thought I smelled burning flesh.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
That's right there you go, his eyes, his eyes.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
Darren, of course is a co host over on house
Lights here on the Nerd Party, but Darren is also
a huge Star Wars and and Door fan, so we
are delighted. Darren that you could join us for this,
because this is our discussion of the eighth episode of
the first season of and or Narkina five, which that
one I can pronounce because they actually said the name
in the episode onlike beach Planet from episode seven, whatever
(01:41):
the hell that one's called. But yeah, here we are,
Matt Darren. This is exciting, the three of us sitting here.
This is like a little mini Star Wars Jedi Council
going on here.
Speaker 5 (01:54):
And we're all holograms. Some reason, the meeting room was booked,
but if someone were to look in through the door,
it's just three holograms. You're like, why did you book
the room?
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Yes, you know, just because we wanted to have our
own space. You know, apparently we're in a very liminal
state of mind right now. But before we dive into
talking about in Archema five, thank you everybody for listening.
We hope you enjoy the episode, and you know, hit
us up with star ratings and reviews on all those
podcasting platforms that allow you to do so. And of course,
(02:26):
you know, if you love us, tell all your friends
about this little podcast that could so. I wanted to.
I wanted to start with both of you guys, because
this episode features a lot of the storylines all playing together,
and in fact, in many ways, I was thinking about
this episode in reference to kind of like The Two Towers,
(02:50):
where it's like all the different storylines are playing together
and nothing gets completely resolved, but we're actually just kind
of setting up the end, and basically like we're actually
looking towards the end because there's only four more episodes
after this, and so one of the big things here
is that and Or has now become kind of priority
(03:12):
number one for the ISB to find. Little do they
know they already have him. And I found this to
be really really interesting, the way that this very organically
puts him center place for so many of these characters.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
Matt, I'm going to call back to an earlier conversation
that we had about the first three episode arc and
all of my problems with the way they cut up
and edited and the pacing and everything like that, and
I made reference. I said, we're going to hit an
arc where I think they did it all right, and
Narkena five is that midway episode. This is this is
(03:49):
two episodes in a row where I'm like this, this
is exactly how I needed this story to start progressing.
Like you're saying, everything's in balance. There's good tension across everything,
and while there's no resolution for the entire arc, it's
resolved enough at the end of the episode. And I mean, Darren,
I don't know if I'm off base. I don't know
(04:10):
if if your team mat or Team John. I don't
know that there's so much distinction this time, but.
Speaker 5 (04:15):
The Team Star wars No. I really like the Nakina
five arc. I think it's the best arc of the
entire with a short comparison to like the Farix stuff
at the end, which is just such a great finale.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
Uh.
Speaker 5 (04:31):
But yeah, and it was interesting rewatching this episode because
at this time, yes, we're starting this new arc. And
that was one of the most helpful things when I
first watched this was learning, oh picture it in these
little two and three episode chunks, and it made so
much more sense. But even in those mini arcs, you're
(04:52):
in the middle of the story, so a lot is
going along, a lot of like a lot of exposition,
a lot of chess pieces. This is kind of the
board is moving kind of thing. But I still feel
this episode is a great rewatch, specifically because it introduces
us to the prison complex, and it's such an interesting
(05:15):
world building, you know, the from the electriflied floors to
on program to the prison uniforms everything. I even noticed
little bits as he was going down being processed for
the first time, obviously having it be a rewatch, I
picked up more on the limits of the guards and oh,
(05:38):
you need to get over here, and oh we just
ran short on people over on two. I was even
counting how many seven sided prison complexes we saw in
the opening pan and they never show a wide enough
shot to get a good count. I think it's between
five and seven. I would guess seven because it's the
lucky magic number of a Qina five. But yeah, this
(06:02):
one where sometimes a middle episode in a in a
story arc, you feel like, ah, do I rewatch that? Yeah,
it's it doesn't have the big gusto, But this one,
I love the prison setup, introducing ken O Looy, introducing Melchi,
who we will see in Rogue one. Yeah, all great
(06:27):
is Refin and all Thrusters and you know man Matha
and Luth and we get other pieces. But this is
the gem of the episode to be Yeah, I mean the.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Whole uh, I mean this was the moment where, uh,
you know, I realized that they had done the thing
that Dave Filoni had mentioned in an interview, which is,
if you want to make good Star Wars, you've got
to watch all of George Lucas, not just Star Wars.
And so the fact that they are relying so heavily
(06:59):
on that eh x one one, three eight feel to
this place where it is so stark. Uh you know,
you have the over voice being, you know, speaking to you.
Just everything about this kind of plays into that, and
and and and and at the same time, I love
(07:22):
the way in which that prison life and that that
this prison story actually plays into the way in which
the Empire's new security measures are actually going to be
a catalyst for the very thing that they're trying to squash.
(07:42):
Because in the end this I've said this many times
that we've been going through this, but like each of
these things become microcosms of the macro and this whole
arc is really about and or learning to lead rebellion,
because he's about to do that in this arc, and
(08:07):
so really that again that involves this microcosm of what
we're going to get in the macrocosm. And and it
ties in so perfectly in the sense that every single
story point, like you were mentioning John, is playing together
on every single cylinder possible at this point, like there's
there's nothing really misfiring when it comes to all the
(08:30):
story points playing together.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
Well, I think that one of the things with the
THHX thing, there's definitely some visual there's a lot of
that visual stuff in the auditory stuff like you were
pointing out, Darren, But like the thing that's really what
I think great that does speak to what Lucas was
saying in his more overtly abstract revolutionary days with THCHX
(08:53):
was the idea of you're constructing the means of your
own oppression. That's the horror of THCHX, And that's the
horror here is you're being made to build the machine.
I don't know what the machine's for, but it doesn't
look like it could be any good and it doesn't
look like it serves any purpose other than this is
going to go out somewhere and hurt you in some way,
(09:14):
or it's going to help us build more prisons or
something like that. And I think that winds up layering
on a lot of ethical stuff that great sci fi
brings into it because you have this question about the
industrial prison. You have this question about a prison that
sustains itself, that exists simply to exist, and then you
(09:37):
have this additional idea of, well, in a world with robotics,
why would anybody do physical labor? And you fight out
because it's a great way to basically oppress somebody so
that they're too tired to do anything. You have them
contained and they can't fight back because they're just trying
to survive.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Day to day.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
And then the people who are the high achievers just say, oh, well,
it's a game and will make your life even better.
And this is where it pays off to see. This
is the one thing where it finally lines up spending
time with Cyril, because you get to see that he's
not in prison in the sense that Andor is, but
(10:19):
he's still in the prison of the outside world, that
the Empire is turning everything into a prison, and it's
all becoming dreary and awful. And I think that's that's
the thing that really makes this episode sing. I think
is that you have man Mathma's level up here, but
then the people like Cyril and and Or they're just
(10:39):
in two different types of prison and it's all in
service of the machine.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Well, and I mean, I just absolutely love Cyril's storyline
here in that his whole story is about his quest
to fail up.
Speaker 5 (10:53):
Like the dude.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Says he's great at all this stuff, the dude's really
kind of a failure and everything he's tried to do
and he's tried to make him he has such a
sense of self importance and in some ways, like I
can't help but think that Tony Gilroy has to be
talking about this throughout history, these people who just can't
help but like think of themselves greater than they ought,
(11:17):
but somehow find themselves in the middle of things that
they shouldn't be a part of. And like that's zero.
I mean, when he's talking to Dedra, it's just like
he's so self important and she puts him in her place,
and I just love it. And but like you said, John,
you really do kind of see that this is the
(11:39):
empire closing its fist in a way to which you
could actually see people like maybe a cirial being a
person who might break at some point and like want
to join the rebellion because of the way they've been
treated by the empire and they finally get that wake
up call, you know, And because the Empire, like you mentioned,
(12:00):
is just creating prisons everywhere, people just haven't woken up
to that fact yet.
Speaker 5 (12:06):
Well, And one little thing is I think you hit
it on the head, Matt, as I often remember, we
think empire, oh, empire, bad, Empire is the galaxy is
the government. So for the average citizen who wants life
to be better, their planet to do better, prosperity, all
(12:27):
of that, you know, they see the Empire as oh I.
And that's I think Cyril's view is like I want
the Empire to be better because I want everything to
be better and I can be helpful, and we're like, well,
not really cereal, but you know he thinks he can.
So I think a lot of the best Star Wars
literature is when you pull back the curtain a little
(12:50):
bit and remember the Empire. Yes it's bad, Yes it's
run in this bureaucracy, but it's also just a title
for the way things are and the government and so
there are and that's where it's really interesting to see
people who get radicalized where they're like everything was going
well and I was helping, and then I think Cyril's
(13:12):
kind of path is but nobody's listening to me, and
nobody's letting me help how I want to help. And
I don't know where he's going to go exactly in
season two, but I think there's possibilities for him to
eventually flip and come to realizations.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
Well, well, you know what, Darren, this is something that
I struggled with through and or is Cyril's storyline. Matt's
even helped me make fun of it a little bit
along the way. In all honesty, this is the first
episode where the ceial storyline I'm sitting there saying, yes, okay,
(13:48):
Cyril serves a thematic purpose. I want to ask you,
because you're you're new to our specific conversation here, did
you have trouble finding purchase with Cyril before this moment,
before Narkina five? Or did the character always work with
the way he was nested into the story for you?
Speaker 5 (14:10):
I didn't have as much of a problem with him,
but I definitely see what you are getting at it.
You know, when you're watching a show like this and
it's jumping around between storylines, man, every time Luthan shows up, Oh,
I'm glued, man, Mathma, I really wanted more of this
and or obviously he's the lead character, and then you're
like Cyril, and I'm like, Okay, I know we're gonna
(14:31):
swing back around on Matma soon. So but I did
enjoy his stuff on Ferris in the beginning. I think
he was a very interesting character. I think overall, though,
there was this kind of lull between the action of
Ferrix and now where he kind of we didn't know
what to do with him. We had to keep showing
(14:52):
him a little bit. Otherwise he's gonna have disappeared for
like three or four episodes and that's not good. But
and he's definitely the slow Burn character where you're his arc.
You know, he's the background character that we happen to
know his name through the whole story. Obviously is a
little more than that. But yeah, so overall, I see
(15:15):
what you're saying, John about Cyril and his cereal.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Yeah, it's like, but Cyril cereal, yea dude, go back
to eating your wookie puffs And just you know, I want.
Speaker 4 (15:27):
To ask the two of you a question though, because
and here I'm going to get controversial. We rarely get
controversial on this show. But I got to get controversial here,
and I'm going to ask it in the most non
controversial manner because it really is just an intellectual question
that I have Star Wars fans. There have been some
online dust ups, and people have an image that gets
(15:50):
rolled out every so often when certain segments of Star
Wars population react poorly to something that's been released and
stuff like that, and they get painted in a certain way.
Narqina five very much gives us a moment focusing on
a romantic relationship that is not Han and Leah. It's
two women who care for each other very deeply, very obviously,
(16:14):
and they spend time instead of dropping a hint of
a glance or hands, they actually spend time discussing it.
I mean, do you think that this basically shows that
Star Wars fans, as long as you're telling the story, well,
they don't really care about Like I look at this
and I'm like, I don't remember anybody talking about that
(16:35):
having a problem with this storyline at all in the
context of and Or. Don't you think that kind of
proves that and Er basically winds up being our proving
ground that Star Wars fans are fine with anything you
throw out them that's done well.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
I mean, I think that you said it perfectly, and
I think the reason that it works is because the
storyline is furthering the overall story line of what does
it mean for each person to be a part of
this rebellion? You know, everybody has their own rebellion, as
(17:08):
we learned in the heist arc, and even though the
person who told that to us was a liar, it's
proven to be true. And so learning that vow is
this rich girl, you know, playing rebellion person who's fallen
(17:29):
in love with somebody who truly like the struggle comes first,
the cause comes first, and it's always going to be
that way until they've won or she's dead. And that
having to then challenge vowels preconceptions and conceptions about what
this is and what this isn't, I think is incredibly interesting.
(17:50):
And so you're right. You write a good story that
plays with the rest of the thematic elements that we're
dealing with, and I don't think anybody has a problem
with that. I think everybody finds that to be valid. Then,
as a storytelling what structure like, you're not doing anything
(18:15):
that's taking away from the story, you're actually adding to
the story, and so it's not about what somebody's relationship
status is. Then it really just comes down to two
people who are trying to deal with the reality that
they're in and they happen to be in this relationship.
And yet that's not the really important part. The important
(18:38):
part is how their lives are telling us something about
what it means to be in this struggle against the Empire.
And to me, again, I don't have a problem with
that then, because it's doing what it's supposed to do.
It's adding to the story, not subtracting from the story.
Speaker 5 (19:00):
Now, I think those characters, they are who Cassian is
in Rogue one, they're there. You know this, I've been
in the fight since six years old, you know, like
living the fight. But when we're visiting Cassian right now,
he is not there yet. He is just on the
beginning of his journey. But we can see the parallels
(19:20):
where he is going to as far as the rebellion
and being you know, on the wrong side of it. Again,
the fact that this is a prison episode and the
fact I love you know, in the previous where he
gets sentenced and all of that, and you just the
futility of it where you're like literally wrong place, wrong time,
(19:42):
and now you're in prison. And because you can see
Cassian's arc where it was trajectory of oh, I'll just
I got some money, I'll just go live in a
quiet spot, and what he's realizing is no, the Empires everywhere.
There is no safe haven. There is no safe spot.
So but yeah, but to to your point, John, Yeah,
(20:06):
I don't remember anything being discussed. I think everyone was
just one way out, one way and that's all I heard,
you know, across the internet. So when you have such
great set pieces and luth and speeches and you know,
the Hallcraft sequence like this movie or this movie, it
is a movie. This series was just blasting on all syllob.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
Well, I'm glad you mentioned Keno Lloyd because does anybody
else find it extremely funny that Andy Serkis is actually
making his second appearance in Star Wars. But this is
the one everybody talks about like he was in a
billion dollar movie. I mean, whether you loved or hated
the Last Jedi, it made a lot of money, and
he was he was in Force Awakens as well. Nobody
(20:51):
talks about Snoke. Everybody talks about this one, and like,
I just think it's funny that the guy known for
doing incredible CG work, what he's known for in are
Wars is the most the most bare bones practical lighting.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
No cig bare bones, bare butt. I mean we get
it all from from Kenot.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Wait what are you talking.
Speaker 5 (21:13):
About, John? He has an extra orange shoulder pass very different.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
That's right.
Speaker 5 (21:18):
Every other Trizza they.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Had to add that in post I forgot as a
as ah No, no, no, no, I mean I'm making it.
Speaker 5 (21:25):
Okay, I'm gonna say yeah, because he's the shift leader,
so he's got the extra shoulder.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
Just like the pauldron on on the sand Trooper, as
the figure was called back in the day.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
I want to ask you guys about this, because what
was really interesting is something you were keying in to
just a little bit earlier, Darren uh and the way
in which you know, the empire functions now and for
people this is just the government, and really people are
just kind of like, I just want to live my life, man,
you know. And we see that struggle play out as
(21:59):
one Mathma is trying to fight against this latest imperial overreach,
and we just see all of these people, all of
these senators just kind of buying the imperial bs hoo
client sinker. They don't care, you know, I mean, why
should we worry if.
Speaker 5 (22:16):
It's not directly impacting me?
Speaker 3 (22:18):
If I'm good, anything wrong, you know? And then she's like,
but who defines what then is the wrong thing? And
so what the question that's being asked about? You know,
are you really free if you keep giving your freedoms away?
And the name of security? You know, and that I
(22:40):
loved you were kind of hitting on that earlier. But
I love the way that this plays out then with
the arena that mon Mathma finds her in where she's
finding less and less people to kind of rally to
her cause because people are just kind of starting to
drink the Imperial kool aid.
Speaker 5 (23:00):
Yeah, on Mathma's arc in this show, I remember when
they were like, oh, Andrew's coming, oh and mon Matha
was in it, and we were all like, really like
the senator girl from you know many Bothams died because
that's all we knew.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
But man, what a character.
Speaker 5 (23:18):
Because it is such a unique position she's in and
getting to see things through the lens of her story
as the as the fists of the Empire slowly closing around.
And I honestly the most tense moments are bon Mathma moments,
especially when she's talking to other senators and you're like, man,
(23:39):
if you say the wrong thing to the wrong person,
you're done. And yeah again, I in true Star Wars
fashioned you know, banking clans and taxes and routing numbers
are important in Star Wars. But they are because they're
tying it to the character. They're tying it to We
(23:59):
want mon author to succeed. We want her to fund
the rebellion because I never thought about who pays for
X wing Fighters and Yavin for It's just go go shoot,
you know, shoot down the Dusk Star. But yeah, it
pulls back the curtain a bit on the rebellion in
a practical way. But yeah, you need funds, you need money.
(24:20):
And when the banks you know, change and are now
the government, you know that that is a problem. So yeah, man,
Mathma was a delightful you know gem in the middle
of this show.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Well what I what, I.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
Give a lot of credit pulling on that threadned specific
I think that the it's gonna be difficult for me
to put it in words. So if I butcher this,
you guys, bring me back in just pantomime at John.
You know what, expressive art. Podcasting is a very visual medium.
So I'm speechless for the next three minutes. I'll do
an interpretive dance for everybody. Just imagine Siseutle singing behind
(24:57):
me right now. But it is the fact that the episodes,
the George Lucas episodes, they're big, overblown, mythical, fairy tale stuff.
What I love about when things are working in and
Or or in the Clone Wars series, or in Bad
(25:17):
Batch or in Rebels, is it is getting its descending
into those particulars because the upper level stuff. This is
never going to be a movie. This should never be
a movie in the big blockbuster sense. They are adapting
to the medium appropriately because you're already bought in. They
(25:39):
know they can go into these particulars because you're already sold,
and you're going to have those questions where you say, well,
wait a minute, how because you're going to you've watched
Star Wars five thousand times in your life and.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
You're like, well, wait a minute, why would you do that?
Speaker 4 (25:54):
And then you have an episode where you have mon
Mathma gently teasing out and trying to find out who
her allies could be, because she's not just prodding in
the sense of trying to get support in the Senate.
We see her in the previous episode, and I think
it recasts it. She's trying to figure out who she
(26:17):
could possibly recruit in some way to assist her, and
these little probing questions and statements are the ones.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
How strong is you?
Speaker 4 (26:28):
Well, the PRD is the thing that's going to save
us all okay, Oh well, I hear you, Senator.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
That's great.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
And in the back of her brain she's like, Okay,
that person's a dead end. Let me go have a
conversation over here and see what this person says about
something like that. What excited me about this episode, as
you know, what tickled my fancy, I should say, as
somebody who is a longtime fan is seeing Saugerera because
(26:56):
I've loved this character since the Clone Wars. I love
that he came in to wrote two Tubes, right, yeah,
everybody two Tubes two tubes fan favorite. But but seriously,
seeing Saw, I'm like, that's the that's the character that
ties it together for me where I where what Saw
looks like At a certain point, I'm like, Okay, how
(27:17):
far is Saw gone? And it's crazy because when you
really think about it, you see the entire progression of
the fight in Sau's character. He's a love mark character.
He's never gonna be there's never gonna be Saw Guerrera
the series, but he's a benchmark for me, and I
(27:38):
think they do a great job of having him be
a benchmark here because he's not as off the deep
end as he is in Rogue One, but his outfits
a little bit closer than when I saw him in
uh In bad Batch, but it's not as far gone
as it was necessarily in Rebels, you know.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
Like, so I'm like, okay, okay, I got Saw here.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
I got I got a handle on where I am
in the time because of this one character that's carried
through So I just I know, it seems like an
odd thing to fixate on, but every time I see Saw,
he's such a great benchmark, benchmark character.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
No, I mean, I think the beauty of Saw is
that he is the picture of the trauma of this
from beginning to end, you know, and the kind of
I think almost psychosis that it puts him in right,
he keeps you know, what's interesting is that Luthen and him,
(28:32):
I think two sides of the same coin in the
sense they're both willing to do whatever it takes. But
Luthan has a better mental handle on it because I
think it feels like he's come to this in a
more intellectual sense, whereas Saw has just had to live
through the tyranny in a very physical way, which is
(28:54):
affected than him his his his mental state, you know,
from the clone wars on right, And so I think
that's really really fascinating for me to watch them play
this dance together, because they're not really all that different
of characters. But Saw is more psychologically broken at this
(29:17):
point than Luthen is. Even though Luthan knows that he
is giving up a piece of his humanity to do
whatever it takes and be willing to do whatever it takes.
It's almost like Saw, it's almost like he didn't really
have the choice because the things that happened to him
(29:37):
were already breaking him, and he didn't ever have a
chance to be able to come to this because it
was an intellectualise exercise. It just was, you know, that
was just his life. And I find it really fascinating
to see the two sides of that I'm with you John,
(29:58):
like seeing him in this show and getting his already
sense of like paranoia and the fact that the whole
reason that Lutheran pulled the Aldaonni heist set that up,
is because he knew that at this point, we've got
to start trying to bring these factions together. And so
(30:19):
when Saul starts labeling all of these different, you know,
political factions on the rebellion side, Luthan's like, we got
to start setting that stuff aside, because unless we pull together,
the Empire will just pick us apart one by one.
And Saul is that character who's who we know is
(30:42):
never going to get to the place where he's going
to be really on anybody's side but his own.
Speaker 5 (30:48):
And I will say with saw is, but he does
have a point is how we wage war is very important.
And I think that's his point, is that all the
different factions. Now, granted he's a little more on the
extreme end of that spectrum, but uh yeah. But I
think one of the best things about saw Is, and
(31:09):
I give this as a tribute to the whole entire show,
is it's balanced between I will say legacy characters, meaning
characters that existed before and Or and like new characters.
So for every Saw or Man Mathma or and Or himself,
you know, things like Keino Loy or Cyril or you
(31:31):
know ded Dedra being definitely a shining star. So I
love the fact that it is Saw because everything you
just said, Matt, there's so much backstory to what is
driving this character that we've seen. If it had just
been Partisan Leader number four in the Caves with like,
(31:55):
it wouldn't have been as nearly an interesting conversation. We
wouldn't have cared about as much. So I think I'm
just I guess tipping my hat to and Or in
the fact that they seem to know when to pull
out those legacy characters of oh, yeah, this should be
Saw these part of this story, or this should be now. Granted,
(32:17):
you can definitely get too overhanded with that, and like
and then Galen Erso walks around the corner, you know,
in the office complex, Like, you can overdo it. But
I think having it be Saw as kind of this
mirror to Luthan is really interesting.
Speaker 4 (32:34):
Is there any concern though? And the thing is, I
think I know the answer is because of you know
what we were talking about earlier in terms of like,
you know, the bigger upper level like mass market movies
and you're already bought in sort of thing. But is
is it ever in danger of becoming too much inside
baseball for the hardcore fan because Saw is not a
(32:56):
character that I can necessarily sell. For instance, to my wife,
she barely remembers Rogue one, and so I'll see Saw
and I'm like, oh cool, it's Saw and to her Darren,
to her it is just you know, it is that
partisan number, partisan number five. Oh and it's Forrest Whitaker.
I saw him in Good Morning Vietnam. That's right, you know, that's.
Speaker 5 (33:17):
Okay thing, that's a that's a good point. I mean,
you're always going to have that difficulty with sci fi.
I think that's one of the reasons that Star Wars
does well with a lot of the names and things
where it's kind of an English she's sounding name, but
maybe it's got two a's in it, or it's got
(33:37):
you know, something spacey because you know, what do they say,
like to the unknown, everyone is a you know what
a like a glove show, like you just don't know
who he is. It's just so yeah, there's definitely that
problem of you start naming and Sci Fi does this
(33:57):
a lot where they're like, oh, I need to get
on the XR five super Transport and then we're gonna
go to Narkeina five and I'm gonna meet ken Olly.
And it's like you just sat a bunch of proper
names and I have no idea what you're talking about.
Like that is the definite, you know problem you have
to fight again.
Speaker 4 (34:15):
I'm sorry, I'm adjusting my milliicochrites over here exactly get
the proper warp factor in place.
Speaker 5 (34:22):
But I think Star Wars in general, one of the
things I love about Star Wars is it takes a
broader paintbrush in general to the universe. It's a ship,
it's a transport, it's a droid, it's a planet. It's
using big terms and names. Yes, obviously you have to
(34:43):
name things. You can't just be like person over there,
it's like they have a name. But and again you're
only gonna get what you invest into consuming the story.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
But I think.
Speaker 5 (34:54):
Overall, for a sci Fi property, Star Wars seems to
balance it pretty well. But yeah, like you said, John,
then they just need to construct their scenes where it
pays off. That it saw, but it also is just
as impactful, maybe not just, but it's also impactful at
(35:14):
a level to the unknown, the unknown view.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
That's where I'll actually give this episode credit is it
does exactly that. The fact that it saw is a
love mark that the three of us can love. But
the point of the scene is Lutheran, a character we
know in the context of this show, talking to someone
about making the rebellion work better and work together. So
(35:41):
I think this is one of the I will give
Gilroy and I think Bo Willeman actually wrote this episode.
But over you know, over the course of you know,
Tony Gilroy, Dan Gilroy, Bo Willman, all of the writers
that are involved in this, this is a properly written scene.
It's a properly written episode overall, because everything works in
(36:03):
the context of the shit.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
It's dealing on its own terms.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
It's following its own rules and guidelines as opposed to
relying on properties that came before. And I think that's
what I think, that's what all three of us are
responding to. But I mean, you know, I mean, Matt,
you know obviously, I know that we're all singing the
praises and everything. Is there anything that falls short on
any episode.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
Yeah, No, I mean I think they are able to
create more of a reason for being with Cyril, especially
now that we've kind of connected him with Deirdre and
the ISB. And I think in some ways we're kind
of seeing the unhinged nature of this person. But I
(36:47):
still think he is the weakest link of this episode,
because everything else in this episode is just fascinating, especially
the way in which you know, you connect the fact
that we started by talking about that and Or has
become you know, enemy number one for the ISB. They're
looking for him, and so what they've done is they
begin to drill down on Feryx, and really and Or
(37:11):
has become this knife's edge for a lot of people
who knew him, right, Luthan is that way right, He's
he is constantly worried about the fact that, you know,
this loose end that he utilized could be the undoing
of everything that they're trying to do. And it's unraveling
things now on Feryx, where Bix has been picked up
(37:32):
by the Empire and things are starting to go really
bad in his hometown because he drew attention to them
in a really bad way and so that's the thing
that to me, it's like all of that stuff is
working so well. And then the way in which everything
that's happening in the prison connects with everything that's happening
with mon Mathma and all and again they're still for me,
(37:57):
and again, I love this show.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
It's it.
Speaker 3 (37:59):
I would say it's the best thing that Disney Plus
has done Star Wars wise, even over like the Mandalorian,
this is this is phenomenal Star Wars. To me, I
still don't think that the serial storyline is playing on
the same level that all the other storylines are playing on.
And so yeah, I mean that, you know, I'm just
(38:21):
I've never been afraid of saying, hey, something doesn't quite
work for me.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Darren.
Speaker 4 (38:25):
Do you think that it betrays anything about the character
or does it betray anything about and Or or does
it support something about and or the fact that he's
in this prison situation and it never seems to occur
to him that he has information he could barter by saying, wait,
(38:47):
I was hit this heist, I could give you more information,
I could send people up. Do you think that that's
an oversight because it never plays to me that he's
making a conscious decision not to be a day. He
just seems not to realize he has this powerful piece
of information to sell. So where where do you fall
on that part of it?
Speaker 5 (39:10):
Yeah? I think I mean because I'd never even thought
about that until you you mentioned it. So yeah, in
one way, he doesn't. Yeah, he definitely doesn't play that card.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Honestly.
Speaker 5 (39:23):
I think what it comes down to is the design
of the prison. He's never seeing a guard, he's never
like except for Keena Loy as the supervisor, but then
that's in the tiniest of names as opposed to actual power.
So there is no real situation where he could, hey,
(39:45):
I need some time off that. Like, he's so crushed
at this point on being in the prison and the
situation that he's in. I don't think he's even considering
you know, he's not even considering.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Escape at this point.
Speaker 5 (40:00):
See, he's just like letting it wash over him.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
See.
Speaker 4 (40:03):
I would have liked a line as they're like marching
him up and they're like keep moving. You know that
the shot troopers are there, Keep moving, keep moving, and
him saying.
Speaker 5 (40:11):
Last sign of last time.
Speaker 4 (40:12):
You see, I have information I can I can tell
more about about these people.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
And they ignore him. Like to me that that seems
to be.
Speaker 5 (40:22):
Well, that's the not Empire's mantra is just arrogant.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
But I think that. But but John, I think that
comes to something that we were talking about last episode,
where we have actually seen pieces of and Or's character again,
go back to him paying the people that he owed
money to on Ferks before he left, which he didn't
have to do. There's something about him that I think
connects with the fact that these people were trying to
(40:47):
do this thing. It's probably good for the universe. I
don't want to be a part of it, but I'm
not going to sell them out because.
Speaker 5 (40:53):
The fact that he like kills the the other team
member that was going to betray them and take the money.
Like again, we've we've seen his characters. So let's say
he does offer up names and people, they're just going
to go to prison or be killed, Like and He's He's.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Still going to go to prison. I do that. He's
still going to go to prison.
Speaker 4 (41:12):
For a crime, right, Yeah, even if he tries to
although although I will say.
Speaker 5 (41:17):
That's true, that's true. I know about the heist. It's like, oh,
so you're now they realize you're number one on the
most wanted list, right You're.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
You just made it worse.
Speaker 5 (41:26):
You're not going anywhere. You made it way better.
Speaker 4 (41:29):
And maybe maybe that just makes him a smarter character,
because I can guarantee you that I would start squealing
like like the mob would hate me because I'd become
Henry Hill the second that I got pinched, I'd be
go like yeah right, names. I can tell you everybody.
Jimmy was selling all of this stuff. Yeah yea, yeah
him too, Tommy. Tommy was involved, Like I I'm sorry, guys,
don't ever involve me in a heist, is what I'm saying,
(41:50):
because I will sell you down.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
The river for immunity in a heartbeat.
Speaker 4 (41:54):
Is it?
Speaker 3 (41:54):
Is it that? Though part of this too is that
I think what and Ors wanted learning is that with
the Empire, there is no bargaining, There is no nothing
right because they don't care, Like He's truly realized, they
don't care enough to care because they don't have to.
And so nothing I do or say is actually going
(42:15):
to matter to anyone anyway. And so the only way
for my voice to matter in any way, shape or
form in the end is going to have to be
to get rid of them. And that's the thing that
you know we'll see in the next few episodes, is
that sense of rebellion, that spark of rebellion to quote rebels,
(42:39):
is going to grow in him. And he's not only
going to spark that rebellion in himself, but he's going
to be the person who sparks that in others and
fans that flame than them to allow that type of
thing to happen. And so we're just seeing the birth
(42:59):
of the and Or we know, like you know, he's
now in the cocoon, and by the time we get
out of this this arc, he's going to become the
person that we know basically, and then we're going to
see that just continue to grow Uh and then and
through the next season. And so, like you were saying earlier, Darren,
(43:21):
like there's just such a brilliance once we get to
this point in the season where all these story points,
because this show really, even though we have all these
other ancillary characters, this show truly is still about the
metamorphosis of and Or Uh and who will see there
(43:42):
in Rogue one And this is one of those places
where it's like they're you mentioned earlier, John, they're just
kind of starting to fire on I mean, cylinders we
didn't even know existed.
Speaker 5 (43:55):
Well, And I wouldn't forget that there's a time jump
in this episode because he's in prison. There's a shot
where it goes to the clock and then I mean,
we can't quite read it. It's really quick, but I
think it's like a month at least, so there's I mean,
it's not a year, but it is a chunk of
(44:15):
time that you know, explains how he's settled into his routine.
But also that means that a month has passed outside
for all of our other characters moving around.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Yes, and.
Speaker 4 (44:29):
You know, I again, I think all three of us
love this episode. I think this one gets probably highest
marks of the season so far.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
Would that be fair to say so far?
Speaker 4 (44:38):
Yeah, highest marks so far. But that's such a charged
way to put it that, Darren. I hope maybe we
can have you back for other discussions, because this has
been a lot of fun having you join us for this.
But if people want to capture that spark of rebellion,
or maybe a spark that could power K two s
in real life, where can they Where can they find you?
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Online? And here on the network, No sparks.
Speaker 5 (45:03):
We keep the magic smoke inside the machines. They can
find me at Doctorscifi, dot Com, dr sci Fi and
that's links to all my socials.
Speaker 4 (45:12):
Awesome, awesome, And of course you can find me here
on the network on this show. But also Darren and
I are on a show together, house Lights, where we
talk about the work of directors. We have a lot
of fun over there. I have a lot of fun
introducing Darren to movies he's never seen before. But there
is a whole subgenre of movies that I'm fighting to
(45:33):
get up there. And someday Neil Breen will be a
director that we examine on house Lights. You can find
me as Castle Junkie out there. Have fun. Track me down, Matt.
Where can people find you?
Speaker 3 (45:44):
I'm all over social media under the name Matt Rushing
Zoe two. Of course here in the network, I've got
a completed show with Dre Kaufman about every single chapter
the Harry Potter series called owl Post. And then you'll
find me over on the tf net network with a
lot of different shows. The one that everybody's probably really
interested here, especially lots of Star Wars Talk, but all
the other franchises we love is the six or two Club,
(46:05):
and then lots of great star trek talk with my
good friend Chris Jones over there, so hopefully everybody will
check that out. But John, you know, I hear that
they're serving some really interestingction drilling cuisine over at the Embassy,
So I think it's time to close these negotiations.
Speaker 4 (46:23):
So long as you don't have the fizzy worms that
get you drunk in and master Rushing and Master Moser
negotiations are clubs.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Join the Revolution, Join the nerd Party.
Welcome to the ned Palty.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hi, this is Nick and Astasu, story editor on Star Wars,
the Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch, and you
are listening to aggressive negotiations.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Well, hello, and welcome to aggressive negotiations. That little slice
of Star Wars Heaven coming at you here from the
ISB headquarters, where we have sadly got to report A
lot of stuff is going down. And I just say
stuff because this is a family show. But with me
as he is every single week is none other than
(00:45):
Jedi Master John Mills. John, how are we going to
respond to all the things that are just going wrong
in the Empire?
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Right now?
Speaker 4 (00:53):
Well, before I ask you for your thesis, Agent Rushing,
I am going to introduce our spe visiting dignitary from
the ISB brass fresh from his meeting with Emperor Palpatine himself,
Darren Moser, fellow podcaster here on the house Lights Network.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Oh I thought I smelled burning flesh.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
That's right there you go, his eyes, his eyes.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
Darren, of course is a co host over on house
Lights here on the Nerd Party, but Darren is also
a huge Star Wars and and Door fan, so we
are delighted. Darren that you could join us for this,
because this is our discussion of the eighth episode of
the first season of and or Narkina five, which that
one I can pronounce because they actually said the name
in the episode onlike beach Planet from episode seven, whatever
(01:41):
the hell that one's called. But yeah, here we are,
Matt Darren. This is exciting, the three of us sitting here.
This is like a little mini Star Wars Jedi Council
going on here.
Speaker 5 (01:54):
And we're all holograms. Some reason, the meeting room was booked,
but if someone were to look in through the door,
it's just three holograms. You're like, why did you book
the room?
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Yes, you know, just because we wanted to have our
own space. You know, apparently we're in a very liminal
state of mind right now. But before we dive into
talking about in Archema five, thank you everybody for listening.
We hope you enjoy the episode, and you know, hit
us up with star ratings and reviews on all those
podcasting platforms that allow you to do so. And of course,
(02:26):
you know, if you love us, tell all your friends
about this little podcast that could so. I wanted to.
I wanted to start with both of you guys, because
this episode features a lot of the storylines all playing together,
and in fact, in many ways, I was thinking about
this episode in reference to kind of like The Two Towers,
(02:50):
where it's like all the different storylines are playing together
and nothing gets completely resolved, but we're actually just kind
of setting up the end, and basically like we're actually
looking towards the end because there's only four more episodes
after this, and so one of the big things here
is that and Or has now become kind of priority
(03:12):
number one for the ISB to find. Little do they
know they already have him. And I found this to
be really really interesting, the way that this very organically
puts him center place for so many of these characters.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
Matt, I'm going to call back to an earlier conversation
that we had about the first three episode arc and
all of my problems with the way they cut up
and edited and the pacing and everything like that, and
I made reference. I said, we're going to hit an
arc where I think they did it all right, and
Narkena five is that midway episode. This is this is
(03:49):
two episodes in a row where I'm like this, this
is exactly how I needed this story to start progressing.
Like you're saying, everything's in balance. There's good tension across everything,
and while there's no resolution for the entire arc, it's
resolved enough at the end of the episode. And I mean, Darren,
I don't know if I'm off base. I don't know
(04:10):
if if your team mat or Team John. I don't
know that there's so much distinction this time, but.
Speaker 5 (04:15):
The Team Star wars No. I really like the Nakina
five arc. I think it's the best arc of the
entire with a short comparison to like the Farix stuff
at the end, which is just such a great finale.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
Uh.
Speaker 5 (04:31):
But yeah, and it was interesting rewatching this episode because
at this time, yes, we're starting this new arc. And
that was one of the most helpful things when I
first watched this was learning, oh picture it in these
little two and three episode chunks, and it made so
much more sense. But even in those mini arcs, you're
(04:52):
in the middle of the story, so a lot is
going along, a lot of like a lot of exposition,
a lot of chess pieces. This is kind of the
board is moving kind of thing. But I still feel
this episode is a great rewatch, specifically because it introduces
us to the prison complex, and it's such an interesting
(05:15):
world building, you know, the from the electriflied floors to
on program to the prison uniforms everything. I even noticed
little bits as he was going down being processed for
the first time, obviously having it be a rewatch, I
picked up more on the limits of the guards and oh,
(05:38):
you need to get over here, and oh we just
ran short on people over on two. I was even
counting how many seven sided prison complexes we saw in
the opening pan and they never show a wide enough
shot to get a good count. I think it's between
five and seven. I would guess seven because it's the
lucky magic number of a Qina five. But yeah, this
(06:02):
one where sometimes a middle episode in a in a
story arc, you feel like, ah, do I rewatch that? Yeah,
it's it doesn't have the big gusto, But this one,
I love the prison setup, introducing ken O Looy, introducing Melchi,
who we will see in Rogue one. Yeah, all great
(06:27):
is Refin and all Thrusters and you know man Matha
and Luth and we get other pieces. But this is
the gem of the episode to be Yeah, I mean the.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Whole uh, I mean this was the moment where, uh,
you know, I realized that they had done the thing
that Dave Filoni had mentioned in an interview, which is,
if you want to make good Star Wars, you've got
to watch all of George Lucas, not just Star Wars.
And so the fact that they are relying so heavily
(06:59):
on that eh x one one, three eight feel to
this place where it is so stark. Uh you know,
you have the over voice being, you know, speaking to you.
Just everything about this kind of plays into that, and
and and and and at the same time, I love
(07:22):
the way in which that prison life and that that
this prison story actually plays into the way in which
the Empire's new security measures are actually going to be
a catalyst for the very thing that they're trying to squash.
(07:42):
Because in the end this I've said this many times
that we've been going through this, but like each of
these things become microcosms of the macro and this whole
arc is really about and or learning to lead rebellion,
because he's about to do that in this arc, and
(08:07):
so really that again that involves this microcosm of what
we're going to get in the macrocosm. And and it
ties in so perfectly in the sense that every single
story point, like you were mentioning John, is playing together
on every single cylinder possible at this point, like there's
there's nothing really misfiring when it comes to all the
(08:30):
story points playing together.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
Well, I think that one of the things with the
THHX thing, there's definitely some visual there's a lot of
that visual stuff in the auditory stuff like you were
pointing out, Darren, But like the thing that's really what
I think great that does speak to what Lucas was
saying in his more overtly abstract revolutionary days with THCHX
(08:53):
was the idea of you're constructing the means of your
own oppression. That's the horror of THCHX, And that's the
horror here is you're being made to build the machine.
I don't know what the machine's for, but it doesn't
look like it could be any good and it doesn't
look like it serves any purpose other than this is
going to go out somewhere and hurt you in some way,
(09:14):
or it's going to help us build more prisons or
something like that. And I think that winds up layering
on a lot of ethical stuff that great sci fi
brings into it because you have this question about the
industrial prison. You have this question about a prison that
sustains itself, that exists simply to exist, and then you
(09:37):
have this additional idea of, well, in a world with robotics,
why would anybody do physical labor? And you fight out
because it's a great way to basically oppress somebody so
that they're too tired to do anything. You have them
contained and they can't fight back because they're just trying
to survive.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Day to day.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
And then the people who are the high achievers just say, oh, well,
it's a game and will make your life even better.
And this is where it pays off to see. This
is the one thing where it finally lines up spending
time with Cyril, because you get to see that he's
not in prison in the sense that Andor is, but
(10:19):
he's still in the prison of the outside world, that
the Empire is turning everything into a prison, and it's
all becoming dreary and awful. And I think that's that's
the thing that really makes this episode sing. I think
is that you have man Mathma's level up here, but
then the people like Cyril and and Or they're just
(10:39):
in two different types of prison and it's all in
service of the machine.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Well, and I mean, I just absolutely love Cyril's storyline
here in that his whole story is about his quest
to fail up.
Speaker 5 (10:53):
Like the dude.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Says he's great at all this stuff, the dude's really
kind of a failure and everything he's tried to do
and he's tried to make him he has such a
sense of self importance and in some ways, like I
can't help but think that Tony Gilroy has to be
talking about this throughout history, these people who just can't
help but like think of themselves greater than they ought,
(11:17):
but somehow find themselves in the middle of things that
they shouldn't be a part of. And like that's zero.
I mean, when he's talking to Dedra, it's just like
he's so self important and she puts him in her place,
and I just love it. And but like you said, John,
you really do kind of see that this is the
(11:39):
empire closing its fist in a way to which you
could actually see people like maybe a cirial being a
person who might break at some point and like want
to join the rebellion because of the way they've been
treated by the empire and they finally get that wake
up call, you know, And because the Empire, like you mentioned,
(12:00):
is just creating prisons everywhere, people just haven't woken up
to that fact yet.
Speaker 5 (12:06):
Well, And one little thing is I think you hit
it on the head, Matt, as I often remember, we
think empire, oh, empire, bad, Empire is the galaxy is
the government. So for the average citizen who wants life
to be better, their planet to do better, prosperity, all
(12:27):
of that, you know, they see the Empire as oh I.
And that's I think Cyril's view is like I want
the Empire to be better because I want everything to
be better and I can be helpful, and we're like, well,
not really cereal, but you know he thinks he can.
So I think a lot of the best Star Wars
literature is when you pull back the curtain a little
(12:50):
bit and remember the Empire. Yes it's bad, Yes it's
run in this bureaucracy, but it's also just a title
for the way things are and the government and so
there are and that's where it's really interesting to see
people who get radicalized where they're like everything was going
well and I was helping, and then I think Cyril's
(13:12):
kind of path is but nobody's listening to me, and
nobody's letting me help how I want to help. And
I don't know where he's going to go exactly in
season two, but I think there's possibilities for him to
eventually flip and come to realizations.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
Well, well, you know what, Darren, this is something that
I struggled with through and or is Cyril's storyline. Matt's
even helped me make fun of it a little bit
along the way. In all honesty, this is the first
episode where the ceial storyline I'm sitting there saying, yes, okay,
(13:48):
Cyril serves a thematic purpose. I want to ask you,
because you're you're new to our specific conversation here, did
you have trouble finding purchase with Cyril before this moment,
before Narkina five? Or did the character always work with
the way he was nested into the story for you?
Speaker 5 (14:10):
I didn't have as much of a problem with him,
but I definitely see what you are getting at it.
You know, when you're watching a show like this and
it's jumping around between storylines, man, every time Luthan shows up, Oh,
I'm glued, man, Mathma, I really wanted more of this
and or obviously he's the lead character, and then you're
like Cyril, and I'm like, Okay, I know we're gonna
(14:31):
swing back around on Matma soon. So but I did
enjoy his stuff on Ferris in the beginning. I think
he was a very interesting character. I think overall, though,
there was this kind of lull between the action of
Ferrix and now where he kind of we didn't know
what to do with him. We had to keep showing
(14:52):
him a little bit. Otherwise he's gonna have disappeared for
like three or four episodes and that's not good. But
and he's definitely the slow Burn character where you're his arc.
You know, he's the background character that we happen to
know his name through the whole story. Obviously is a
little more than that. But yeah, so overall, I see
(15:15):
what you're saying, John about Cyril and his cereal.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Yeah, it's like, but Cyril cereal, yea dude, go back
to eating your wookie puffs And just you know, I want.
Speaker 4 (15:27):
To ask the two of you a question though, because
and here I'm going to get controversial. We rarely get
controversial on this show. But I got to get controversial here,
and I'm going to ask it in the most non
controversial manner because it really is just an intellectual question
that I have Star Wars fans. There have been some
online dust ups, and people have an image that gets
(15:50):
rolled out every so often when certain segments of Star
Wars population react poorly to something that's been released and
stuff like that, and they get painted in a certain way.
Narqina five very much gives us a moment focusing on
a romantic relationship that is not Han and Leah. It's
two women who care for each other very deeply, very obviously,
(16:14):
and they spend time instead of dropping a hint of
a glance or hands, they actually spend time discussing it.
I mean, do you think that this basically shows that
Star Wars fans, as long as you're telling the story, well,
they don't really care about Like I look at this
and I'm like, I don't remember anybody talking about that
(16:35):
having a problem with this storyline at all in the
context of and Or. Don't you think that kind of
proves that and Er basically winds up being our proving
ground that Star Wars fans are fine with anything you
throw out them that's done well.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
I mean, I think that you said it perfectly, and
I think the reason that it works is because the
storyline is furthering the overall story line of what does
it mean for each person to be a part of
this rebellion? You know, everybody has their own rebellion, as
(17:08):
we learned in the heist arc, and even though the
person who told that to us was a liar, it's
proven to be true. And so learning that vow is
this rich girl, you know, playing rebellion person who's fallen
(17:29):
in love with somebody who truly like the struggle comes first,
the cause comes first, and it's always going to be
that way until they've won or she's dead. And that
having to then challenge vowels preconceptions and conceptions about what
this is and what this isn't, I think is incredibly interesting.
(17:50):
And so you're right. You write a good story that
plays with the rest of the thematic elements that we're
dealing with, and I don't think anybody has a problem
with that. I think everybody finds that to be valid. Then,
as a storytelling what structure like, you're not doing anything
(18:15):
that's taking away from the story, you're actually adding to
the story, and so it's not about what somebody's relationship
status is. Then it really just comes down to two
people who are trying to deal with the reality that
they're in and they happen to be in this relationship.
And yet that's not the really important part. The important
(18:38):
part is how their lives are telling us something about
what it means to be in this struggle against the Empire.
And to me, again, I don't have a problem with
that then, because it's doing what it's supposed to do.
It's adding to the story, not subtracting from the story.
Speaker 5 (19:00):
Now, I think those characters, they are who Cassian is
in Rogue one, they're there. You know this, I've been
in the fight since six years old, you know, like
living the fight. But when we're visiting Cassian right now,
he is not there yet. He is just on the
beginning of his journey. But we can see the parallels
(19:20):
where he is going to as far as the rebellion
and being you know, on the wrong side of it. Again,
the fact that this is a prison episode and the
fact I love you know, in the previous where he
gets sentenced and all of that, and you just the
futility of it where you're like literally wrong place, wrong time,
(19:42):
and now you're in prison. And because you can see
Cassian's arc where it was trajectory of oh, I'll just
I got some money, I'll just go live in a
quiet spot, and what he's realizing is no, the Empires everywhere.
There is no safe haven. There is no safe spot.
So but yeah, but to to your point, John, Yeah,
(20:06):
I don't remember anything being discussed. I think everyone was
just one way out, one way and that's all I heard,
you know, across the internet. So when you have such
great set pieces and luth and speeches and you know,
the Hallcraft sequence like this movie or this movie, it
is a movie. This series was just blasting on all syllob.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
Well, I'm glad you mentioned Keno Lloyd because does anybody
else find it extremely funny that Andy Serkis is actually
making his second appearance in Star Wars. But this is
the one everybody talks about like he was in a
billion dollar movie. I mean, whether you loved or hated
the Last Jedi, it made a lot of money, and
he was he was in Force Awakens as well. Nobody
(20:51):
talks about Snoke. Everybody talks about this one, and like,
I just think it's funny that the guy known for
doing incredible CG work, what he's known for in are
Wars is the most the most bare bones practical lighting.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
No cig bare bones, bare butt. I mean we get
it all from from Kenot.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Wait what are you talking.
Speaker 5 (21:13):
About, John? He has an extra orange shoulder pass very different.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
That's right.
Speaker 5 (21:18):
Every other Trizza they.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Had to add that in post I forgot as a
as ah No, no, no, no, I mean I'm making it.
Speaker 5 (21:25):
Okay, I'm gonna say yeah, because he's the shift leader,
so he's got the extra shoulder.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
Just like the pauldron on on the sand Trooper, as
the figure was called back in the day.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
I want to ask you guys about this, because what
was really interesting is something you were keying in to
just a little bit earlier, Darren uh and the way
in which you know, the empire functions now and for
people this is just the government, and really people are
just kind of like, I just want to live my life, man,
you know. And we see that struggle play out as
(21:59):
one Mathma is trying to fight against this latest imperial overreach,
and we just see all of these people, all of
these senators just kind of buying the imperial bs hoo
client sinker. They don't care, you know, I mean, why
should we worry if.
Speaker 5 (22:16):
It's not directly impacting me?
Speaker 3 (22:18):
If I'm good, anything wrong, you know? And then she's like,
but who defines what then is the wrong thing? And
so what the question that's being asked about? You know,
are you really free if you keep giving your freedoms away?
And the name of security? You know, and that I
(22:40):
loved you were kind of hitting on that earlier. But
I love the way that this plays out then with
the arena that mon Mathma finds her in where she's
finding less and less people to kind of rally to
her cause because people are just kind of starting to
drink the Imperial kool aid.
Speaker 5 (23:00):
Yeah, on Mathma's arc in this show, I remember when
they were like, oh, Andrew's coming, oh and mon Matha
was in it, and we were all like, really like
the senator girl from you know many Bothams died because
that's all we knew.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
But man, what a character.
Speaker 5 (23:18):
Because it is such a unique position she's in and
getting to see things through the lens of her story
as the as the fists of the Empire slowly closing around.
And I honestly the most tense moments are bon Mathma moments,
especially when she's talking to other senators and you're like, man,
(23:39):
if you say the wrong thing to the wrong person,
you're done. And yeah again, I in true Star Wars
fashioned you know, banking clans and taxes and routing numbers
are important in Star Wars. But they are because they're
tying it to the character. They're tying it to We
(23:59):
want mon author to succeed. We want her to fund
the rebellion because I never thought about who pays for
X wing Fighters and Yavin for It's just go go shoot,
you know, shoot down the Dusk Star. But yeah, it
pulls back the curtain a bit on the rebellion in
a practical way. But yeah, you need funds, you need money.
(24:20):
And when the banks you know, change and are now
the government, you know that that is a problem. So yeah, man,
Mathma was a delightful you know gem in the middle
of this show.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Well what I what, I.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
Give a lot of credit pulling on that threadned specific
I think that the it's gonna be difficult for me
to put it in words. So if I butcher this,
you guys, bring me back in just pantomime at John.
You know what, expressive art. Podcasting is a very visual medium.
So I'm speechless for the next three minutes. I'll do
an interpretive dance for everybody. Just imagine Siseutle singing behind
(24:57):
me right now. But it is the fact that the episodes,
the George Lucas episodes, they're big, overblown, mythical, fairy tale stuff.
What I love about when things are working in and
Or or in the Clone Wars series, or in Bad
(25:17):
Batch or in Rebels, is it is getting its descending
into those particulars because the upper level stuff. This is
never going to be a movie. This should never be
a movie in the big blockbuster sense. They are adapting
to the medium appropriately because you're already bought in. They
(25:39):
know they can go into these particulars because you're already sold,
and you're going to have those questions where you say, well,
wait a minute, how because you're going to you've watched
Star Wars five thousand times in your life and.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
You're like, well, wait a minute, why would you do that?
Speaker 4 (25:54):
And then you have an episode where you have mon
Mathma gently teasing out and trying to find out who
her allies could be, because she's not just prodding in
the sense of trying to get support in the Senate.
We see her in the previous episode, and I think
it recasts it. She's trying to figure out who she
(26:17):
could possibly recruit in some way to assist her, and
these little probing questions and statements are the ones.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
How strong is you?
Speaker 4 (26:28):
Well, the PRD is the thing that's going to save
us all okay, Oh well, I hear you, Senator.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
That's great.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
And in the back of her brain she's like, Okay,
that person's a dead end. Let me go have a
conversation over here and see what this person says about
something like that. What excited me about this episode, as
you know, what tickled my fancy, I should say, as
somebody who is a longtime fan is seeing Saugerera because
(26:56):
I've loved this character since the Clone Wars. I love
that he came in to wrote two Tubes, right, yeah,
everybody two Tubes two tubes fan favorite. But but seriously,
seeing Saw, I'm like, that's the that's the character that
ties it together for me where I where what Saw
looks like At a certain point, I'm like, Okay, how
(27:17):
far is Saw gone? And it's crazy because when you
really think about it, you see the entire progression of
the fight in Sau's character. He's a love mark character.
He's never gonna be there's never gonna be Saw Guerrera
the series, but he's a benchmark for me, and I
(27:38):
think they do a great job of having him be
a benchmark here because he's not as off the deep
end as he is in Rogue One, but his outfits
a little bit closer than when I saw him in
uh In bad Batch, but it's not as far gone
as it was necessarily in Rebels, you know.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
Like, so I'm like, okay, okay, I got Saw here.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
I got I got a handle on where I am
in the time because of this one character that's carried
through So I just I know, it seems like an
odd thing to fixate on, but every time I see Saw,
he's such a great benchmark, benchmark character.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
No, I mean, I think the beauty of Saw is
that he is the picture of the trauma of this
from beginning to end, you know, and the kind of
I think almost psychosis that it puts him in right,
he keeps you know, what's interesting is that Luthen and him,
(28:32):
I think two sides of the same coin in the
sense they're both willing to do whatever it takes. But
Luthan has a better mental handle on it because I
think it feels like he's come to this in a
more intellectual sense, whereas Saw has just had to live
through the tyranny in a very physical way, which is
(28:54):
affected than him his his his mental state, you know,
from the clone wars on right, And so I think
that's really really fascinating for me to watch them play
this dance together, because they're not really all that different
of characters. But Saw is more psychologically broken at this
(29:17):
point than Luthen is. Even though Luthan knows that he
is giving up a piece of his humanity to do
whatever it takes and be willing to do whatever it takes.
It's almost like Saw, it's almost like he didn't really
have the choice because the things that happened to him
(29:37):
were already breaking him, and he didn't ever have a
chance to be able to come to this because it
was an intellectualise exercise. It just was, you know, that
was just his life. And I find it really fascinating
to see the two sides of that I'm with you John,
(29:58):
like seeing him in this show and getting his already
sense of like paranoia and the fact that the whole
reason that Lutheran pulled the Aldaonni heist set that up,
is because he knew that at this point, we've got
to start trying to bring these factions together. And so
(30:19):
when Saul starts labeling all of these different, you know,
political factions on the rebellion side, Luthan's like, we got
to start setting that stuff aside, because unless we pull together,
the Empire will just pick us apart one by one.
And Saul is that character who's who we know is
(30:42):
never going to get to the place where he's going
to be really on anybody's side but his own.
Speaker 5 (30:48):
And I will say with saw is, but he does
have a point is how we wage war is very important.
And I think that's his point, is that all the
different factions. Now, granted he's a little more on the
extreme end of that spectrum, but uh yeah. But I
think one of the best things about saw Is, and
(31:09):
I give this as a tribute to the whole entire show,
is it's balanced between I will say legacy characters, meaning
characters that existed before and Or and like new characters.
So for every Saw or Man Mathma or and Or himself,
you know, things like Keino Loy or Cyril or you
(31:31):
know ded Dedra being definitely a shining star. So I
love the fact that it is Saw because everything you
just said, Matt, there's so much backstory to what is
driving this character that we've seen. If it had just
been Partisan Leader number four in the Caves with like,
(31:55):
it wouldn't have been as nearly an interesting conversation. We
wouldn't have cared about as much. So I think I'm
just I guess tipping my hat to and Or in
the fact that they seem to know when to pull
out those legacy characters of oh, yeah, this should be
Saw these part of this story, or this should be now. Granted,
(32:17):
you can definitely get too overhanded with that, and like
and then Galen Erso walks around the corner, you know,
in the office complex, Like, you can overdo it. But
I think having it be Saw as kind of this
mirror to Luthan is really interesting.
Speaker 4 (32:34):
Is there any concern though? And the thing is, I
think I know the answer is because of you know
what we were talking about earlier in terms of like,
you know, the bigger upper level like mass market movies
and you're already bought in sort of thing. But is
is it ever in danger of becoming too much inside
baseball for the hardcore fan because Saw is not a
(32:56):
character that I can necessarily sell. For instance, to my wife,
she barely remembers Rogue one, and so I'll see Saw
and I'm like, oh cool, it's Saw and to her Darren,
to her it is just you know, it is that
partisan number, partisan number five. Oh and it's Forrest Whitaker.
I saw him in Good Morning Vietnam. That's right, you know, that's.
Speaker 5 (33:17):
Okay thing, that's a that's a good point. I mean,
you're always going to have that difficulty with sci fi.
I think that's one of the reasons that Star Wars
does well with a lot of the names and things
where it's kind of an English she's sounding name, but
maybe it's got two a's in it, or it's got
(33:37):
you know, something spacey because you know, what do they say,
like to the unknown, everyone is a you know what
a like a glove show, like you just don't know
who he is. It's just so yeah, there's definitely that
problem of you start naming and Sci Fi does this
(33:57):
a lot where they're like, oh, I need to get
on the XR five super Transport and then we're gonna
go to Narkeina five and I'm gonna meet ken Olly.
And it's like you just sat a bunch of proper
names and I have no idea what you're talking about.
Like that is the definite, you know problem you have
to fight again.
Speaker 4 (34:15):
I'm sorry, I'm adjusting my milliicochrites over here exactly get
the proper warp factor in place.
Speaker 5 (34:22):
But I think Star Wars in general, one of the
things I love about Star Wars is it takes a
broader paintbrush in general to the universe. It's a ship,
it's a transport, it's a droid, it's a planet. It's
using big terms and names. Yes, obviously you have to
(34:43):
name things. You can't just be like person over there,
it's like they have a name. But and again you're
only gonna get what you invest into consuming the story.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
But I think.
Speaker 5 (34:54):
Overall, for a sci Fi property, Star Wars seems to
balance it pretty well. But yeah, like you said, John,
then they just need to construct their scenes where it
pays off. That it saw, but it also is just
as impactful, maybe not just, but it's also impactful at
(35:14):
a level to the unknown, the unknown view.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
That's where I'll actually give this episode credit is it
does exactly that. The fact that it saw is a
love mark that the three of us can love. But
the point of the scene is Lutheran, a character we
know in the context of this show, talking to someone
about making the rebellion work better and work together. So
(35:41):
I think this is one of the I will give
Gilroy and I think Bo Willeman actually wrote this episode.
But over you know, over the course of you know,
Tony Gilroy, Dan Gilroy, Bo Willman, all of the writers
that are involved in this, this is a properly written scene.
It's a properly written episode overall, because everything works in
(36:03):
the context of the shit.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
It's dealing on its own terms.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
It's following its own rules and guidelines as opposed to
relying on properties that came before. And I think that's
what I think, that's what all three of us are
responding to. But I mean, you know, I mean, Matt,
you know obviously, I know that we're all singing the
praises and everything. Is there anything that falls short on
any episode.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
Yeah, No, I mean I think they are able to
create more of a reason for being with Cyril, especially
now that we've kind of connected him with Deirdre and
the ISB. And I think in some ways we're kind
of seeing the unhinged nature of this person. But I
(36:47):
still think he is the weakest link of this episode,
because everything else in this episode is just fascinating, especially
the way in which you know, you connect the fact
that we started by talking about that and Or has
become you know, enemy number one for the ISB. They're
looking for him, and so what they've done is they
begin to drill down on Feryx, and really and Or
(37:11):
has become this knife's edge for a lot of people
who knew him, right, Luthan is that way right, He's
he is constantly worried about the fact that, you know,
this loose end that he utilized could be the undoing
of everything that they're trying to do. And it's unraveling
things now on Feryx, where Bix has been picked up
(37:32):
by the Empire and things are starting to go really
bad in his hometown because he drew attention to them
in a really bad way and so that's the thing
that to me, it's like all of that stuff is
working so well. And then the way in which everything
that's happening in the prison connects with everything that's happening
with mon Mathma and all and again they're still for me,
(37:57):
and again, I love this show.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
It's it.
Speaker 3 (37:59):
I would say it's the best thing that Disney Plus
has done Star Wars wise, even over like the Mandalorian,
this is this is phenomenal Star Wars. To me, I
still don't think that the serial storyline is playing on
the same level that all the other storylines are playing on.
And so yeah, I mean that, you know, I'm just
(38:21):
I've never been afraid of saying, hey, something doesn't quite
work for me.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Darren.
Speaker 4 (38:25):
Do you think that it betrays anything about the character
or does it betray anything about and Or or does
it support something about and or the fact that he's
in this prison situation and it never seems to occur
to him that he has information he could barter by saying, wait,
(38:47):
I was hit this heist, I could give you more information,
I could send people up. Do you think that that's
an oversight because it never plays to me that he's
making a conscious decision not to be a day. He
just seems not to realize he has this powerful piece
of information to sell. So where where do you fall
on that part of it?
Speaker 5 (39:10):
Yeah? I think I mean because I'd never even thought
about that until you you mentioned it. So yeah, in
one way, he doesn't. Yeah, he definitely doesn't play that card.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Honestly.
Speaker 5 (39:23):
I think what it comes down to is the design
of the prison. He's never seeing a guard, he's never
like except for Keena Loy as the supervisor, but then
that's in the tiniest of names as opposed to actual power.
So there is no real situation where he could, hey,
(39:45):
I need some time off that. Like, he's so crushed
at this point on being in the prison and the
situation that he's in. I don't think he's even considering
you know, he's not even considering.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Escape at this point.
Speaker 5 (40:00):
See, he's just like letting it wash over him.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
See.
Speaker 4 (40:03):
I would have liked a line as they're like marching
him up and they're like keep moving. You know that
the shot troopers are there, Keep moving, keep moving, and
him saying.
Speaker 5 (40:11):
Last sign of last time.
Speaker 4 (40:12):
You see, I have information I can I can tell
more about about these people.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
And they ignore him. Like to me that that seems
to be.
Speaker 5 (40:22):
Well, that's the not Empire's mantra is just arrogant.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
But I think that. But but John, I think that
comes to something that we were talking about last episode,
where we have actually seen pieces of and Or's character again,
go back to him paying the people that he owed
money to on Ferks before he left, which he didn't
have to do. There's something about him that I think
connects with the fact that these people were trying to
(40:47):
do this thing. It's probably good for the universe. I
don't want to be a part of it, but I'm
not going to sell them out because.
Speaker 5 (40:53):
The fact that he like kills the the other team
member that was going to betray them and take the money.
Like again, we've we've seen his characters. So let's say
he does offer up names and people, they're just going
to go to prison or be killed, Like and He's He's.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Still going to go to prison. I do that. He's
still going to go to prison.
Speaker 4 (41:12):
For a crime, right, Yeah, even if he tries to
although although I will say.
Speaker 5 (41:17):
That's true, that's true. I know about the heist. It's like, oh,
so you're now they realize you're number one on the
most wanted list, right You're.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
You just made it worse.
Speaker 5 (41:26):
You're not going anywhere. You made it way better.
Speaker 4 (41:29):
And maybe maybe that just makes him a smarter character,
because I can guarantee you that I would start squealing
like like the mob would hate me because I'd become
Henry Hill the second that I got pinched, I'd be
go like yeah right, names. I can tell you everybody.
Jimmy was selling all of this stuff. Yeah yea, yeah
him too, Tommy. Tommy was involved, Like I I'm sorry, guys,
don't ever involve me in a heist, is what I'm saying,
(41:50):
because I will sell you down.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
The river for immunity in a heartbeat.
Speaker 4 (41:54):
Is it?
Speaker 3 (41:54):
Is it that? Though part of this too is that
I think what and Ors wanted learning is that with
the Empire, there is no bargaining, There is no nothing
right because they don't care, Like He's truly realized, they
don't care enough to care because they don't have to.
And so nothing I do or say is actually going
(42:15):
to matter to anyone anyway. And so the only way
for my voice to matter in any way, shape or
form in the end is going to have to be
to get rid of them. And that's the thing that
you know we'll see in the next few episodes, is
that sense of rebellion, that spark of rebellion to quote rebels,
(42:39):
is going to grow in him. And he's not only
going to spark that rebellion in himself, but he's going
to be the person who sparks that in others and
fans that flame than them to allow that type of
thing to happen. And so we're just seeing the birth
(42:59):
of the and Or we know, like you know, he's
now in the cocoon, and by the time we get
out of this this arc, he's going to become the
person that we know basically, and then we're going to
see that just continue to grow Uh and then and
through the next season. And so, like you were saying earlier, Darren,
(43:21):
like there's just such a brilliance once we get to
this point in the season where all these story points,
because this show really, even though we have all these
other ancillary characters, this show truly is still about the
metamorphosis of and Or Uh and who will see there
(43:42):
in Rogue one And this is one of those places
where it's like they're you mentioned earlier, John, they're just
kind of starting to fire on I mean, cylinders we
didn't even know existed.
Speaker 5 (43:55):
Well, And I wouldn't forget that there's a time jump
in this episode because he's in prison. There's a shot
where it goes to the clock and then I mean,
we can't quite read it. It's really quick, but I
think it's like a month at least, so there's I mean,
it's not a year, but it is a chunk of
(44:15):
time that you know, explains how he's settled into his routine.
But also that means that a month has passed outside
for all of our other characters moving around.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Yes, and.
Speaker 4 (44:29):
You know, I again, I think all three of us
love this episode. I think this one gets probably highest
marks of the season so far.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
Would that be fair to say so far?
Speaker 4 (44:38):
Yeah, highest marks so far. But that's such a charged
way to put it that, Darren. I hope maybe we
can have you back for other discussions, because this has
been a lot of fun having you join us for this.
But if people want to capture that spark of rebellion,
or maybe a spark that could power K two s
in real life, where can they Where can they find you?
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Online? And here on the network, No sparks.
Speaker 5 (45:03):
We keep the magic smoke inside the machines. They can
find me at Doctorscifi, dot Com, dr sci Fi and
that's links to all my socials.
Speaker 4 (45:12):
Awesome, awesome, And of course you can find me here
on the network on this show. But also Darren and
I are on a show together, house Lights, where we
talk about the work of directors. We have a lot
of fun over there. I have a lot of fun
introducing Darren to movies he's never seen before. But there
is a whole subgenre of movies that I'm fighting to
(45:33):
get up there. And someday Neil Breen will be a
director that we examine on house Lights. You can find
me as Castle Junkie out there. Have fun. Track me down, Matt.
Where can people find you?
Speaker 3 (45:44):
I'm all over social media under the name Matt Rushing
Zoe two. Of course here in the network, I've got
a completed show with Dre Kaufman about every single chapter
the Harry Potter series called owl Post. And then you'll
find me over on the tf net network with a
lot of different shows. The one that everybody's probably really
interested here, especially lots of Star Wars Talk, but all
the other franchises we love is the six or two Club,
(46:05):
and then lots of great star trek talk with my
good friend Chris Jones over there, so hopefully everybody will
check that out. But John, you know, I hear that
they're serving some really interestingction drilling cuisine over at the Embassy,
So I think it's time to close these negotiations.
Speaker 4 (46:23):
So long as you don't have the fizzy worms that
get you drunk in and master Rushing and Master Moser
negotiations are clubs.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Join the Revolution, Join the nerd Party.
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