April 9, 2025 • 48 mins
Andor: Season One - Nobody’s Listening!
The 9th episode of Star Wars: Andor left everyone reeling, with enhanced interrogation (torture) displayed onscreen, the prison complex of Narkina 5 becoming an even more desperate place, and the people of Coruscant reacting to daily life in the Empire in very different ways. John and Matt discuss their reactions to the themes of this episode and ponder what must have been the fate of Narkina 5 when the Empire fell. They dissect and praise the work of the actors and actresses, and debate if the plot lines find the right balance overall.
Host
John Mills and Matthew Rushing
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The 9th episode of Star Wars: Andor left everyone reeling, with enhanced interrogation (torture) displayed onscreen, the prison complex of Narkina 5 becoming an even more desperate place, and the people of Coruscant reacting to daily life in the Empire in very different ways. John and Matt discuss their reactions to the themes of this episode and ponder what must have been the fate of Narkina 5 when the Empire fell. They dissect and praise the work of the actors and actresses, and debate if the plot lines find the right balance overall.
Host
John Mills and Matthew Rushing
Love listening to Aggressive Negotiations, a Star Wars podcast that’s different from all the rest? Then you’ll love The Nerd Party, a one-of-a-kind podcast network focused on all the best of Star Trek, the magical realm of the Harry Potter books, the works of the best film directors in history, the latest from international film and comic stars, and so much more!
Send us your feedback!
Twitter: @TheJediMasters
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheNerdParty/
Email: http://www.thenerdparty.com/contact
Subscribe in Apple Podcasts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the NED Party.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hi, this is Nick and Ostasu, story editor on Star Wars,
the Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch, and you
are listening to aggressive negotiations.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
We can do this the easy way, we can do
this the hard way, but either way, we're glad that
you're listening to aggressive negotiations. The Star Wars podcast here
on the Nerd Party network that explores every aspect of
the Star Wars galaxy that we can think of, that
you can think of, that anybody can think of. In fact,
somebody else is thinking of something right now having to
(00:46):
do with Star Wars, but we're going to think of
it first and talk about it. But for this episode,
I am joined. I'm John Nils. I'm joined as always
by my dear friend, my trusted compatriot, Jedi Master, Matthew Rushing. Matt,
are you ready to record tonight or do I have
to put the funky headphones on you? And have you
(01:07):
listened to alien screams again until you say you.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Are, John, The worst thing you could do right now
is bore me.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Well, we know that's never gonna happen, Matt. So everybody
is safe and sound listening to this week's episode, Oh
we are, we are, everybody is and everybody everybody. Of course,
don't make us strap those special headphones on you and
get you to go over and give us a star
rating and review over on Apple Podcasts or anywhere else
(01:41):
that you listen to the show. We appreciate it. We
give this to you as an act of love. Give
that back to us as an act of love as well,
and of course, reach us on the social media at
the Jedi Masters on x look for the Nerd Party
on Facebook, look for the Nerd Party on other networks.
I'm old. I'm an old man. I can't keep up
with everything.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
There's too many networks, John, There's just too many networks.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
There sure are, and we try to contact them by
climbing in a small, narrow tube and tapping out Morse
code in hopes that the Empire doesn't hear us setting
out on those networks. But Matt, here we are. Ninth episode,
birthplace of a bunch of gifts and memes that have
gone around the world. Nobody's Listening. Ninth episode of and
(02:27):
Or in the first season, where we are seeing some
things really starting to take shape, really in a sincerely
interesting manner. And so we come into this episode and
the thing is, I know that I know that we
talk about the particular as we talk about the pacing,
we talk about the cuts and everything like that. But
(02:50):
from the very first viewing, the very unsettling way in
which it starts, wherein we have the interrogation, see being
set up with Dedre and Bicks, Yeah, and we have
everything coming together. We see the mad doctor, the token
mad doctor. He's always a skinny guy in a trench
coat for some reason, you know, and he's always gleeful,
(03:11):
he's always happy to be torturing people.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
They're always creepy.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
But the thing is, like, I guess you have to
have been a person that found your life's calling to
do these things. Like you'd hate to think that it's
just you know, Johnny Punch the Clock is working this
thing where he's like, Eh, yeah, I gotta torture you.
What are you gonna do? I feel like you need
somebody wired a certain way to do these sorts of things.
I know I'm making light of it, but it just
(03:36):
sort of like, is just to compartmentalize the horrible aspect
of it that there are people like that in the world.
But my question to you out of the gate here,
is this too intense a way to open up a
Star Wars show? And let me add context on that question.
(03:56):
Something that people fall back on, whether they're criticizing Star
Wars or they're loving Star Wars continually is to say, oh, well,
it's a thing about space wizards for kids, right, And
that's a way to deflect arguments, and that's a way
to start arguments, and that's a way to be dismissive.
But if we're talking about a franchise where everybody says, oh,
(04:19):
it's about space wizards for kids, is this too intense?
Does this opening cross any lines from your perspective?
Speaker 1 (04:27):
You know, it's it's very interesting to me that one
of the things that Tony Gilroy has said in an
interview about season two is this idea that he wanted
to take this more seriously than anybody who had ever
taken Star Wars seriously before. And you know, I think
(04:50):
that the interesting aspect of that is that, you know,
for the subject matter here and the the idea of
of the rebellion, I think that this is the perfect
opportunity to do that. You know, when when you're talking
about the what we're discussing. You know, this is this
(05:12):
is an incredibly dark and deep and like as we
talked about last week, I think to great acclaim with
our good friend Darren. So great to have Darren on
if you did, if you missed that episode, you need
to go find it. It was wonderful. We had a
fantastic time with that. But this, this show really is
(05:37):
is asking some incredibly big questions, right, you know, as
we were talking about the the conundrum that Luthan finds
himself in the conversation he has with Saw and here
again I think we're really meeting the rubber meets the road.
But at the same time, you know, one of the
things that I was thinking of specifically as this episode
(05:58):
began was we're seeing in perial torture. We're seeing what
the Empire is willing to do to keep its power.
We're seeing basically this this is the Gestapo at work, right.
You know, Bix even says you're ISB, aren't you? You're
the worst of the worst, you know, And just as
(06:18):
the Gestapo was the worst of the worst for the Nazis,
the ISB is the worst of the worst for the Empire.
And you know, I mean they're working with a guy.
As soon as that guy came on the screen, the
doctor or whatever who created this crazy thing that like
scrambles your brain, all I could think was doctor Vindy
(06:38):
from the Blue Shadow Virus episodes of Home Wars, you know,
and he's just so giddy about his creation and that
it could destroy the entire universe if it got out,
you know, like he just thinks it's the most amazing
thing ever. And this dude is so enamored with his
own creation and what it can do. There's no morality there,
(06:59):
and that I think is incredibly terrifying when what we're
really seeing here is that we're in a place where
it doesn't it doesn't matter about what's right or what's wrong.
It clearly is just about staying in power and being
(07:23):
in power. Yeah, and so I think that's a crazy thing.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Here, unquestionably, Yes, I think. I mean, I go back.
Empire strikes Back sort of defeats the argument in the
sense we see Han getting tortured. Yeah, we're physically tortured,
but there is something that has even more men. It's
one thing to see Darth Vader presiding over torture. Vader
(07:48):
doesn't have a face. People forget that sometimes Vader's mask
is not a face. It doesn't change. We have to
listen for voice and look for body language. Abstracts it
a little bit, is what I would say. This feels
more adult because of the fact that you see the
(08:12):
sickness in Deidra's face sure when she's interacting, Whereas with Vader,
even as he's lowering han on, he's not saying anything
to him, he's just they're lowering it on. We know
Han's yelling. We hear han yell a little bit. It
lasts not a very long time, whereas the build up
to putting Bis in the the funky headset. That's the tension.
(08:37):
That's the part that really takes it.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
And I think, well, and then they don't let you
listen to it right, They don't give you right, which
is even because we're terrifying. Then then you know the
whole aspect, Like, I think that's the other genius there
is that we don't hear that.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
So but I think that scene is also important because
this is the moment at which Dedra goes from an
interesting antagonist we've never met before, who's a career minded bureau.
It's a career minded bureaucrat who is part of the
machine and disconnected, and we find out, no, she's very
(09:17):
personally evil. I think this scene and specific allows Dedra
to have that turn into actual villainy. It's not. Yeah,
And what's disconcerting about it is that you then wonder if,
like it makes her play as worse even than her boss,
(09:40):
who just seems like a really great paper pusher and
people manager. Yeah, you could sit there and kind of wonder, well,
what did he do to get up to the top
of the ranks, But that doesn't matter. Dedre is now
more personally horrific than he is even though he runs
the entire bureau, or he at least reports to you.
(10:00):
He's the boss that we encounter. Now. It starts off
so strong with that. We switch to the prison where
and Or is and we see him going day to
day with everything. As we flip the storylines, we of
(10:21):
course also bring Cyral back into everything because we you know,
previously we talked about we brought him in. Do you
think that first half of the episode, not the back
half the first half of the episode, do you see
any challenges with the momentum the handoff between those segments.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
So no, I think that And this is the interesting thing,
you know. You know, we've talked about the whole serial thing,
right and kind of how crazy it is and kind
of how weird it is, and and yet you know,
one of the things that happens in this episode is
Seria himself just we realize, Okay, oh, he's a he's
(11:03):
a crazy he's he's crazy, right, uh. And and not
only is he crazy, but he's a crazy stalker.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
And And what I find to be fascinating about that
is the way in which this, of course is going
to then build with Dedre herself, right, you know, and
and and it's going to tap into something with her
which is going to be really fascinating. And so but no,
I thought that that really played well because even though
I don't necessarily still really care about the whole serial storyline,
(11:35):
what's happening with mon Mathma is just so good, you know.
I mean, we we we learn that, you know, she's
related to Vow uh. And you know, we see Voo
really taking to heart the conversation she had with Santa,
and and she has very much kind of hardened and
(11:55):
changed in that sense, and she's trying to galvanize mand
for for that calling that they have taken up the
vowels that they have made to the rebellion. And yet
it's it's fascinating because you know, you can just see
like nobody cares, nobody's listening. This episode is perfectly named
(12:17):
because you know, what mon is talking about is so
incredibly important, right, It's the most important thing that's happening
in the galaxy. Everybody's freedom is being stripped away, and
nobody seems to care. Why because nobody's listening, and they
couldn't give to you know what. And then to see
the weight of the mask that she's having to wear
(12:41):
and what it's doing to her. You know, she has
no connection with her family. Her daughter hates her, her
husband is awful, and it treats her like dirt. And
now she's learning that the only way that possibly you
get out of the situation she's in is to apparently
(13:05):
go to some shady chandrillin muddy laundering dude. So there
will be no more veneer for her anymore in the
sense that she's able to keep her hands clean whatsoever.
Like she's gonna have to start playing dirty, and is
she gonna be willing to do that, and so like
(13:28):
that storyline to me, you know, obviously we'll get to
what's going on in Narkeina.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Five, but.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
That storyline to me just really brings home the cost
you know that you're seeing for somebody like like man Mathma,
who you know we know from from the prequels and
the stuff that's come out with her in it. You know,
whether it was in the Clone Wars, she was probably
more like Padme kind of this idealist, you know, like
(14:01):
thinking that that they could solve problems type of things.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
Hang on, it's solely being stripped away. I want to
pull on that thread though. Do you think that had
she lived, do you think pad May would have faced
the same sort of crucible moment? Yes, perfect world situation,
Padme goes into hiding, goes off, She continued, Do you
think she goes down this road? Because the thing is
(14:25):
this is where Okay, and I know you always knock
me for like, oh, prestige television and stuff like that. Fine, okay,
so let me conceide this all prestige television, long storytelling
arc sort of thing. What feels disconnected at this point
if I'm looking at it from like a macro perspective
is very obviously, You're right. The point of what man
(14:48):
Mathma is going through is that she has to come
down and get in the mud with everybody else. She
can no longer pretend that she can stay clean and
do this quote unquote the high ground way. She can't
be on the high ground anymore. I wish that we're
better connected in this context right now with Saw and Luthen.
(15:12):
It's a little too disconnect. Yes, I know her cousin
is there. We know her cousin is tied. We know
this from a macro perspective, it's just a little too
distant from seeing Saw. It's a little too distant from
some Luthen stuff to remind us that it's like she's
(15:33):
part of that cadre of leaders that's discussing things right now.
Is there a quote unquote solution to that. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
I'm not saying.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
I think I'm saying, like, from a macro perspective, I
would like to see that happening a little bit more compressed.
Okay for those moments.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
No, I kind of get that, you know, I think
that one of the things that h on the other
side of that, why I think it works is because
that's the difficulty with this. You know, when Man tries
to talk about Luthen to vow, she shuts it down, right,
because there has to be that distance between them kept,
(16:18):
you know, because who knows who could hear. And so again,
I think that that's the other thing is we have
man Mathma who's being asked to do all these things,
and yet she really is truly kind of isolated, right,
she doesn't really have anyone, you know. Luthan has these
(16:41):
other people that he is able to have conversations with,
and he's not in that same position, like he's not
in this completely alone, right, And I think that's something
that makes the place that mon Mothma is uh specifically
(17:06):
and uniquely different than kind of everybody else.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
I don't I don't disagree. I say you are.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
I'm saying, like I what you were saying where you
were just kind of hoping it's it's closer and everything.
I totally get what you're saying, and I can I
can see how you know that would be really really interesting.
I think that you know, with Ah, with the way
that it's done, I think it's it's meant to make
(17:37):
us feel that isolation for her.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Yeah, I mean, I I I get what you're saying
with that, I don't know that I agree with it
as an approach. I think that Additionally, this is one
of those times where I think they could have they
could have accelerated a little bit more. I'm not taking
anything away from the Narkina five stuff. I think that
(18:02):
stuff is absolutely engrossing. It's absolutely engrossing to see things
coming together, to see the rumor spreading, to see Ken
o'loy sort of struggling with his own loss of hope
about everything, seeing seeing him realizing in real time, Oh
my gosh, I've been lied to completely. Everything I pinned
(18:24):
my hopes top is an absolute lie.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Yeah, his world is shattered in this way and it it's.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
And the thing is again, I don't because I don't
pay attention to this stuff, but like did Andy serkis
at least get nominated for any acting awards for his
appearance in the series.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
But because he's so great in this series.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Denise Goff, I think golf is how you pronounce her
last name, and he are phenomenal. The series doesn't work
without the two of them. Yeah, I agree, I yes,
I think that we have, you know, I mean we've
talked about how you know, Diego luna Is is born
to play this role. He inhabits it. Yeah, at this point,
(19:10):
like you almost look at it and you like it's
effortless for him. At this point it's obviously isn't, but
it feels effortless for him. I see the character. I
don't see him anymore. He is Cassie and andorm I agree.
So let's set that. Let's box it up, Let's tie
a bow on it. Let's set that over to the side.
We've said it enough times. Denise Goff Andy serkis absolutely
(19:32):
key to the success of this particular episode. This is
where the casting director absolutely wins their paycheck forgetting these
two people on the show.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
This is redemption for Andy Serkis and star Wars.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Yes, but I'm also going to go out there and
say that Christopher Fairbank, who plays Ouloff, the guy who's
aged and having trouble with his hands and stuff like that,
Oh my gosh, that guy. Yeah, that's the type of
role that's thankless because what the show tells us to
(20:09):
care about is how people are reacting to him. But
what he's giving the audience and the other characters is
so key to what's happening right now, and it's unfortunate.
I think probably something why. I think there could have
(20:30):
been an opportunity to make some of these things work
a little bit more smoothly, because we talked about this,
the whole Clone Wars thing where he said, oh, well,
you know you have the three arcs and stuff like that.
I am going through Clone Wars, as I've talked about
while we're recording this again with my youngest and as
(20:53):
I hit these episodes. Here's the difference. And it's primarily
a run time thing. The majority of those episodes can
really stay tightly focused on a plot line, and maybe
there's a b plot line, but primarily we're in one spot,
one series of events, really tightly focused. And I think
(21:13):
that Christopher fairbanks performance is a casualty of saying no,
this has got to be forty five minutes to an hour.
If this were a more tightly focused, like prison only episode,
I think Christopher Fairbanks gets more spotlight on him. That's
not me saying restructure the whole episode just for him.
I'm not saying anything like that. I'm just saying, this
(21:35):
is my way of heaping praise on him sure for
what he did, is to say that he is a
victim of the way they decided to structure the storytelling here,
I think, at least, I mean, if I'm wrong, if
there's like documented evidence out there that no everybody spend
as much time going on about him as I did, Okay,
I will gladly withdraw the point. But were there any
(22:00):
other supporting performances that you looked at that you were like, yeah, yeah,
that really made this work?
Speaker 2 (22:06):
You know.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Strangely enough, the one that's that's that might be shocking
to you is Cyril's mother, because like, how many how many?
How many people have experienced that kind of in their
life with a parent who has wrapped themselves into your
(22:29):
life in this way?
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (22:32):
And where you know, and even if you haven't seen that,
are haven't experienced it right, You may have seen it
right with a friend of yours where that parent was
so overly involved in their child's life because they were
utilizing their life as a way to live vicariously. They
(22:55):
had wrapped all of themselves into you. And I thought
that that that portrayal of his mother was actually very
well done, and it's just what's so well done about
it is she's so grating, she's so frustrating as a character,
(23:19):
and that's exactly what you need her to be. There
really isn't anything likable about her and the way she's
portraying it. I think that then makes it really well done.
So I got to give her credit for being able
to pull that off in a way that just kind
of makes my skin crawl a little bit every time
(23:40):
that she's on screen.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
You almost wonder in other series the serial character winds
up being a serial killer. A serial killer.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
The guy feel Maybe that's why that's his name, because
that's what he comes off as, right, he comes off
as somebody who seems like at any moment he's going
to snap.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
And this is gonna sound crazy. Maybe that's the frustrating
thing about the ceial arc is we know we're so
inculcated with knowing where it points in other series, but
it doesn't go there.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
I mean, at least it hasn't there yet.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
Yeah, so well, I would be surprised if it did.
But do you think there's something to that that? Like,
sometimes we wind up so used to seeing certain characters
go off in a certain way in so much other
material that when it doesn't go that way in a
piece of material, we react to it in a certain
(24:40):
way where we're like, no, that's not right, that's not
how you're supposed to do it, Like it's it's like
seeing somebody make a sandwich in a different way. Or
the kid in the Never Ending Story eat the core
of the apple, which horrified me as a child, Like,
that's the one thing I walk away with from The
Never Ending Story as a kid eats the entire apple,
including the cord. I'm like, I remember saying to my
dad I was a kids seeing it. I was like, Dad,
(25:01):
who who does that? And he was like, oh, well,
you know some people do that. It's like what people
eat the core? And like is that? Is this the
same sort of thing where it's like we're reacting to
cerial well, like, okay, come on, become a serial killer
do something terrible. And he does terrible things, but they're
all like sort of like intellectually terrible and not like
killing people and keeping a trophy of their foot in
(25:23):
his you know, in his bedroom somewhere.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
You know, I think too, you know, especially in this
episode with his conversation with Deirdre, you know, we get
this since that he is a fanatic, right he has been,
(25:48):
he has been radicalized by the empire, and it's mission right,
this mission of order at any cost, and that no
matter what you have to do, you create that order.
And honestly, that's incredibly terrifying, right, Like, I think that's
(26:11):
what they are trying to do with him as a character.
They're trying to show what happens when somebody becomes a
sold out believer in an ideology to the point where
it controls them completely and utterly and there's no other
thought process happening in their brain. That's what's happened to Cyril.
(26:35):
And you know, I think that it's the thing that
we could relate to. Of course, in the time period
that we live in, right we see that happening unfortunately
all too frequently. But it's not just our time period
to which that's an issue. This is something to which
we have seen, you know, throughout history, which is again
the type of thing that you know, Gilroy is pulling
(26:58):
from on purpose. And so you know, I think that's
kind of where that comes down for me.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
Well, I really think, honestly, the thing that I go
back to is I think that again, going back to
the opening of the show and the alternative form of torture,
you would look at that and you would say, well,
they're not harming Bis in a physical way. They're not
beating Bis, they're not you know, fake drowning her, They're
(27:29):
not doing these certain things. All they're doing is they're
playing some noises that mess with your head. And what
I think is really I mean, the reason I keep
going back to it is because it's really hard not
to feel like that is a very specific criticism of
(27:50):
current times, specifically in Western culture, maybe global culture too.
And I'm not saying that's a negative, but I'm saying
the torture aspect of it, the quote unquote alternative forms,
where oh, is it really torture? It's hard to describe,
you know, because torture is usually this is usually that.
(28:13):
I think. Maybe that's why I think it's so adult
the way they do it is because in the aftermath
of nine to eleven, those of us who are old
enough to have lived through it and have a memory
of it, these sorts of questions still rankle a little
(28:33):
bit because of the fact I look at that scene
and I do not sympathize with Deidre at all. I
do not think she's doing anything correct. I don't think
anything that they're doing is correct. Yeah, but you see
how easy it is when you feel justified to do
something like this because from ddrous perspective, Mix is a
(28:59):
rep and lives depend on finding Cassian and Or and
I have to do extreme means to find this man
who's responsible for murder. Meanwhile, shelving in the back of
my brain, Cassian is literally responsible for murder. Yeah, forget
the heist. He's literally responsible for murder from the very
(29:22):
first get go, in the very first episode. And it's
so easy, because you talk about the radicalization of Cyril,
it's so easy to find yourself justifying taking that extra
little step. Well, I'm not hitting bicks, I'm just messing
with her head, Shelby, Fine, as long as she talks
to me. You see how easy it is to sell
(29:44):
it to anybody who's willing to intellectually rationalize it that
if you took this, say to Cyril, if you took
this to the average person on Coruscant and he said,
this is what I'm going to do is I'm gonna
put these headphones on. It's gonna play a really unsettling
tone and then I'll stop after a little bit and
she can tell me what she's saying. It's really easy
(30:04):
to present that in an abstract way because again, you're
not leaving any marks on her body. Yeah. I just
think that's I mean, am I am I pushing too
hard into this? No?
Speaker 1 (30:15):
I don't think you are pushing too hard on that,
you know. I think what's what's interesting is is the
way in which we're seeing I think the terrifying thing
that the Empire does not waste people if they don't
have to, right, I mean that isn't that what we're
(30:38):
seeing on our Quina five right, which you know they're there.
Their big slip up on their Quina five is placing
people back in the system so that other people can
find out about it, right, and which is where everything
goes to hell in a hand basket for them, right
they they and so in that I find that really
(31:02):
fascinating because they they aren't just necessarily about taking people
out for no good reason. What we're seeing is is
that they they are willing to utilize people's blood, sweat
and tears to get what they desire from them. And
(31:24):
two build their empire, right that it's built on the
back of slaves basically, you know, you think of ancient
Egypt with the is uh the Hebrews, right uh. And
you know, and and that's but that's been happening ever
(31:48):
since and and so this empire is no different and
and and therefore I think it it subtly makes us
kind of have to think about all of the uncomfortable
places within you know, the recent past and even in
our daily life now where it's like human trafficking. It's
(32:13):
a huge issue, you know, and yet so many people
don't seem to care.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
So that's one of the cheap goods from Timu, right well, I.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Mean yeah, so isn't that just the empire to a
t they are the ultimate bread and circuses?
Speaker 3 (32:34):
Yes, But tacking onto that as well, saying with the
prison thing, once you have the source of cheap free labor,
because if you think about it, people are the one
thing that's perpetually replacing itself. It's a renewable resource, and
you just keep finding reasons to keep people in prison.
(32:59):
And I think again, I know, I made the glib
comment about Timou and everything like that, but yeah, I mean,
people are easier to maintain than droids. We know how
to do it because we are people, and it doesn't
require any skilled technician to keep a person running exactly
because your food, here's your sleep, here's you're this, you
need this minimum. And I know that doctors have told
(33:20):
me that I know how to run you because I
know how to run me, and running a machine requires
a technician. Blah blah blah blah. Anyway, I think that
it really is a it's just that unsettling. I mean,
even in the United States, in these United States where
(33:40):
you and I are, you know, in California, there was
a big scandal because they were purposely keeping people in
prison to keep cheap labor and such going. And so,
you know, you talk about like there's stuff in current
times and stuff in the past. We're talking about the
torture and everything, and it's like it's so easy in
modern times to say, oh, well, that's something somebody did
back then, and then you turn around and you're like, oh,
(34:02):
wait a minute, Oh no, somebody today is doing that.
And that's that That's a question that seems to be
inherent in the show. And I guess maybe it's a
good it's a good one. To like sort of like
start start rounding third on is do you see an
underlying message similar to the original Guiding six films of
(34:27):
Star Wars in this episode pointing toward hope because that's
what we're always looking for. Is there any spark of
hope within this episode or does or do you feel
really bleak at the end of this show at the
end of this ninth episode.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
You know, I think I think the beauty of this
episode is that and Or has already been planning this
idea of leading a rebellion, right, He's already been working
on the plan, and what he's needed is to find
a way to get ken O Lloy on his side. Yeah,
(35:11):
and this is again, you know, I think we've talked
about many times. Is in so many instances in Star
Wars and in storytelling, and I think honestly even in
just the world in general. And this is why stories
reflect reality. Evil ends up defeating itself and that's and
(35:38):
that's what happens.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
Right.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
The Empire overreaches on our Quina five in a way
that leads them, and their over confidence is their weakness,
and that over confidence being their weakness, and the fact
that you have somebody like and or in there, who's
(36:01):
ready to spark a rebellion here has been waiting for
the right moment, and the right moment came and he
took it, and Keino Lloy by the end of the
episode is on his side, and with that you have
this feeling you left with that hope of Okay, we
are moving forward now and we're getting out of this place, right.
(36:24):
And of course there's the meta knowledge that we know
we're going to get out because we know he's in
rogue one right, but the situation has been so dire
here it really is down to okay, how does this happen?
And seeing all of these pieces kind of on this
(36:44):
moving chess board have been incredibly interesting in this series,
and part of I think this is one of the
things that I find so wonderful about the series, is
allowing us then to just inhabit these places. Maybe you know,
maybe we could be spending more time there than we
necessarily need to be, But I think what it's allowing
(37:07):
us to do is to truly be able to, as
the viewer, marinate in the awfulness that it is to
be under the empire, so that then as we move
towards the second season, and then into Rogue one, and
then into a New Hope. There is that celebration, right, Like,
(37:30):
all of this actually makes the original Star Wars such
a better experience because when that Death Star is destroyed,
there's so much more to that now than there was
back in nineteen seventy seven.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
Bite your tongue. There was plenty to it.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
No, I'm saying I'm not taking anything away from the start.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
You know that.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
I'm just saying now we actually.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
I don't more to it. I believe you just absolutely
dismissed the original Star Wars.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Yes, that is an absolute hater.
Speaker 3 (38:10):
It took more than three hundred and ninety episodes to
get here, folks, but I finally exposed Matt he hates
the original Star Wars. Mail. So let me ask you
this question. And this is something where I think that
(38:32):
this is something where I think the world building they're
doing with like the Mandalorian and Ahsoka speaks to some
of this stuff. I'm gonna ask you a question on
our way out the door here or on the way
back to the temple. I guess I should say what
happened to Narkina five after the Empire fell? I want
(38:52):
your thoughts on that before we close out what happened
to Narkina five. The prisons are Narkeina five when the
empire fell.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
You know, I think that's a great question because one
of the interesting parts about that is that we know
that they're there making parts for the Death Star, right
They're they're creating the massive deflector Dish.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
So what I wonder.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Doesn't really even exist after that project is done, you know, or.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
Or or considering they were building a second one too.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
Or you know, so how long does this exist?
Speaker 3 (39:31):
You know?
Speaker 1 (39:31):
I you know, this is one of the things where
I think it would have been so fascinating to be
able to have those stories about what happens after you know,
Return of the Jedi, and you know, that could have
been an incredible story of liberation of Kia five. Right
this place that they find out is still there, and
(39:57):
you know, so as the second Death Star deflector Dish
is done, I honestly think probably what they do to
it is they leave all of the people there and
they just blow it up. They blow them all away.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
I think that's a valid take on things. My brain
goes in a slightly different way. I I think Operation
Cinder gets them, and I'm willing now that they've worked
that reference in h they've taken it away from three
(40:36):
really poorly written books and had a very excellent exchange
about it with Bill Burr in The Mandalorian. I'm willing
to accept Operation Cinder as a thing. And I think
that part of Operation Cinder would have been to go
around and incinerate the poor people on Narkeina five, because
(40:58):
part of it would have been to cripple the New Republic.
Going around and destroying the things that could have made
it function for a little bit longer. Yeah, would have
been one of the ways. You wouldn't have wanted to
think that the New Republic would have kept Narkina five going,
(41:20):
but honestly, I think it probably would have. It would
have taken the bureaucracy too long to work through it.
And I think the one tantalizing hint of what could
have been if it's not Operations Center is in Tales
of the Empire, when there were a New Republic, envoy
(41:43):
goes to tell Morgan Elsbeth that the Empire's done and
the New Republic is taking over. I could easily see
a warlord with a New Republic envoy showing up and saying,
the people of Narkina five, we have to give them,
you know, full trials, and the and the guy basically
the warden of planet or whatever being like, oh, oh,
that's not going to happen. Yeah, Hey, Animation Department, there's
(42:08):
your queue. We'd love to see things like this. Give
us some short episodes that'd be really rad.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Yeah, I think or or you or you can always
you know, do a just a short season too, you know,
I mean you can you can create you know, many
seasons of things that we would all love to see.
Speaker 3 (42:28):
Our services are free. We give these ideas to you
for free. Matt any last thoughts before we adjourn?
Speaker 1 (42:37):
Yeah, I mean, I think this is a really good episode.
And part of that is that I think it ramps
up the tension. And what's kind of fascinating is is
that this is actually the last part of this arc,
because the escape plays into the last three and so
really this whole arc has been about cementing the horribleness
(43:04):
of the Empire in our minds and for everyone who's
been watching, and I think it's done a really good
job of that. I think this episode, though, it lets
you know what's coming next in the sense that, yes,
we are moving now towards rebellion, full on rebellion, and
(43:32):
I can't wait, man, I think so, I guess if
I gave this a rating, I think this is a
really good, solid four out of five.
Speaker 3 (43:41):
For me.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
It's just a very well done episode and it leaves
me kind of on the edge of my seat for
the next episode, which is always a good thing in television.
And of course, you know, with the way that this
show was released, you had to wait the next week,
right and so, and everybody was talking about it. So
(44:04):
what about you, John, Where would you kind of put
this on a rating scale?
Speaker 3 (44:10):
I think I'd probably end up at a four powered law.
I think that my general reaction is it's like a
three three and a half because I think that it's
a little long in the tooth. I think that there
are certain things that could be tightened up. I'm not
talking about any cuts to Dedra or anything like that.
(44:32):
There's just stuff I think could have been conveyed a
little more quickly. But that's just because that's that's how
I'm wired. You know, whatever, find fault with it if
you want to. But and most listeners do, I think
so you know whatever. I mean, listen, I don't have
I don't have as many years left as I've lived through.
So I got to get these stories faster, okay, like
(44:54):
otherwise I'm going to start watching at one a half speed? Okay,
like the kids do all right? Come on now, if
they don't want to do it, why would it be
an option on Netflix? Matt, That's what I'm asking. Why
would be an option?
Speaker 1 (45:05):
Is the devil?
Speaker 3 (45:06):
That's why I don't know. I don't know. I must
consume content like fast food. It's the only way to
keep up with with everything and watch Real Housewives of
Beverly Hills just as I'm going along. You know, I
got it? Hey, you know what another story idea? Pitch?
Real Housewives of Coruscant. Hear me out, Disney, you can
(45:28):
tap into treads. So I went up with a four.
It's a solid four and it is largely powered by
I mean, I'll be dead honest. I think Denise Goff
is just so stellar. She is so fantastic in her role.
I can't sing her praises enough. She is just absolutely phenomenal.
(45:52):
And that that's why, Like the the floor of this
is a four. There's no way could I could even
like pick it enough on certain things to be like
a three and a half like bang, that is the
that is the floor for it. So you know that
being said, if people want to complain to you, Matt
about the fact that I didn't give it a five
and that I found any flaws at all.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
We rated it the same.
Speaker 3 (46:14):
So I don't know who's going on. But the thing is,
so you came at it from a four from a
positive angle. I came at it from a negative angle.
We're balance of the forest, folks. If people want to
complain about my dark side tendencies, Matt, where can they find?
Speaker 1 (46:26):
Oh man, Well, people should find and complain over at
Kessel Junkie. All over social media. I'm sorry, I mean,
Matt Rushing zero two is where you'll find me, and
you can do that, like I said, all over social media.
Would love to get a chance to catch up with you.
Of course, you can find me as well on the
(46:47):
network with a show called al Post with Dray Kaufman
talking about every single chapter of the Harry Potter series
one chapter of time. Over on the TFM network, we
also find me doing a bunch of different shows with
a lot of Star Trek Talk as well as the
six or two Club, where John is a frequent guest.
We talk about all of the franchises that we love,
not just Star Wars, but we do talk a lot
(47:09):
of Star Wars are there, so you can also check
that out. But John, I mean, if people do want
to catch up with you, see what's going on, even
though you are going to be spending days as you
look at all of your mentions. Once you're back after Lent,
where can people find you?
Speaker 3 (47:25):
Oh? Well, just look for me at Castle Junkie. I'm
on a couple of social networks whatever. Sure send a
message to Castle Junkie if I'm on there after Lent.
I'll respond to you. I promise. You can also find
me here on the network on a show called house Lights,
where we look at the work of different directors. It's
(47:45):
challenging because it's three of us. I'm the only one
with the correct rating and response to every movie. Strange,
but it's a good baseline so that you can compare
with whether the other two co hosts, Tristan and Darren,
are correct. Sometimes they are, sometimes they are. I don't know.
I don't control these things. It's science at this point.
(48:06):
But Matt, you know, I think that it's time for
us to get on program. It's weird that they instituted
that at the Jedi Council. Just feels odd. But I
think it's time to close these negotiations.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
Negotiations are clubs, Join the Revolution, join the Nerd Party
on program
Welcome to the NED Party.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hi, this is Nick and Ostasu, story editor on Star Wars,
the Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch, and you
are listening to aggressive negotiations.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
We can do this the easy way, we can do
this the hard way, but either way, we're glad that
you're listening to aggressive negotiations. The Star Wars podcast here
on the Nerd Party network that explores every aspect of
the Star Wars galaxy that we can think of, that
you can think of, that anybody can think of. In fact,
somebody else is thinking of something right now having to
(00:46):
do with Star Wars, but we're going to think of
it first and talk about it. But for this episode,
I am joined. I'm John Nils. I'm joined as always
by my dear friend, my trusted compatriot, Jedi Master, Matthew Rushing. Matt,
are you ready to record tonight or do I have
to put the funky headphones on you? And have you
(01:07):
listened to alien screams again until you say you.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Are, John, The worst thing you could do right now
is bore me.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Well, we know that's never gonna happen, Matt. So everybody
is safe and sound listening to this week's episode, Oh
we are, we are, everybody is and everybody everybody. Of course,
don't make us strap those special headphones on you and
get you to go over and give us a star
rating and review over on Apple Podcasts or anywhere else
(01:41):
that you listen to the show. We appreciate it. We
give this to you as an act of love. Give
that back to us as an act of love as well,
and of course, reach us on the social media at
the Jedi Masters on x look for the Nerd Party
on Facebook, look for the Nerd Party on other networks.
I'm old. I'm an old man. I can't keep up
with everything.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
There's too many networks, John, There's just too many networks.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
There sure are, and we try to contact them by
climbing in a small, narrow tube and tapping out Morse
code in hopes that the Empire doesn't hear us setting
out on those networks. But Matt, here we are. Ninth episode,
birthplace of a bunch of gifts and memes that have
gone around the world. Nobody's Listening. Ninth episode of and
(02:27):
Or in the first season, where we are seeing some
things really starting to take shape, really in a sincerely
interesting manner. And so we come into this episode and
the thing is, I know that I know that we
talk about the particular as we talk about the pacing,
we talk about the cuts and everything like that. But
(02:50):
from the very first viewing, the very unsettling way in
which it starts, wherein we have the interrogation, see being
set up with Dedre and Bicks, Yeah, and we have
everything coming together. We see the mad doctor, the token
mad doctor. He's always a skinny guy in a trench
coat for some reason, you know, and he's always gleeful,
(03:11):
he's always happy to be torturing people.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
They're always creepy.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
But the thing is, like, I guess you have to
have been a person that found your life's calling to
do these things. Like you'd hate to think that it's
just you know, Johnny Punch the Clock is working this
thing where he's like, Eh, yeah, I gotta torture you.
What are you gonna do? I feel like you need
somebody wired a certain way to do these sorts of things.
I know I'm making light of it, but it just
(03:36):
sort of like, is just to compartmentalize the horrible aspect
of it that there are people like that in the world.
But my question to you out of the gate here,
is this too intense a way to open up a
Star Wars show? And let me add context on that question.
(03:56):
Something that people fall back on, whether they're criticizing Star
Wars or they're loving Star Wars continually is to say, oh, well,
it's a thing about space wizards for kids, right, And
that's a way to deflect arguments, and that's a way
to start arguments, and that's a way to be dismissive.
But if we're talking about a franchise where everybody says, oh,
(04:19):
it's about space wizards for kids, is this too intense?
Does this opening cross any lines from your perspective?
Speaker 1 (04:27):
You know, it's it's very interesting to me that one
of the things that Tony Gilroy has said in an
interview about season two is this idea that he wanted
to take this more seriously than anybody who had ever
taken Star Wars seriously before. And you know, I think
(04:50):
that the interesting aspect of that is that, you know,
for the subject matter here and the the idea of
of the rebellion, I think that this is the perfect
opportunity to do that. You know, when when you're talking
about the what we're discussing. You know, this is this
(05:12):
is an incredibly dark and deep and like as we
talked about last week, I think to great acclaim with
our good friend Darren. So great to have Darren on
if you did, if you missed that episode, you need
to go find it. It was wonderful. We had a
fantastic time with that. But this, this show really is
(05:37):
is asking some incredibly big questions, right, you know, as
we were talking about the the conundrum that Luthan finds
himself in the conversation he has with Saw and here
again I think we're really meeting the rubber meets the road.
But at the same time, you know, one of the
things that I was thinking of specifically as this episode
(05:58):
began was we're seeing in perial torture. We're seeing what
the Empire is willing to do to keep its power.
We're seeing basically this this is the Gestapo at work, right.
You know, Bix even says you're ISB, aren't you? You're
the worst of the worst, you know, And just as
(06:18):
the Gestapo was the worst of the worst for the Nazis,
the ISB is the worst of the worst for the Empire.
And you know, I mean they're working with a guy.
As soon as that guy came on the screen, the
doctor or whatever who created this crazy thing that like
scrambles your brain, all I could think was doctor Vindy
(06:38):
from the Blue Shadow Virus episodes of Home Wars, you know,
and he's just so giddy about his creation and that
it could destroy the entire universe if it got out,
you know, like he just thinks it's the most amazing
thing ever. And this dude is so enamored with his
own creation and what it can do. There's no morality there,
(06:59):
and that I think is incredibly terrifying when what we're
really seeing here is that we're in a place where
it doesn't it doesn't matter about what's right or what's wrong.
It clearly is just about staying in power and being
(07:23):
in power. Yeah, and so I think that's a crazy thing.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Here, unquestionably, Yes, I think. I mean, I go back.
Empire strikes Back sort of defeats the argument in the
sense we see Han getting tortured. Yeah, we're physically tortured,
but there is something that has even more men. It's
one thing to see Darth Vader presiding over torture. Vader
(07:48):
doesn't have a face. People forget that sometimes Vader's mask
is not a face. It doesn't change. We have to
listen for voice and look for body language. Abstracts it
a little bit, is what I would say. This feels
more adult because of the fact that you see the
(08:12):
sickness in Deidra's face sure when she's interacting, Whereas with Vader,
even as he's lowering han on, he's not saying anything
to him, he's just they're lowering it on. We know
Han's yelling. We hear han yell a little bit. It
lasts not a very long time, whereas the build up
to putting Bis in the the funky headset. That's the tension.
(08:37):
That's the part that really takes it.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
And I think, well, and then they don't let you
listen to it right, They don't give you right, which
is even because we're terrifying. Then then you know the
whole aspect, Like, I think that's the other genius there
is that we don't hear that.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
So but I think that scene is also important because
this is the moment at which Dedra goes from an
interesting antagonist we've never met before, who's a career minded bureau.
It's a career minded bureaucrat who is part of the
machine and disconnected, and we find out, no, she's very
(09:17):
personally evil. I think this scene and specific allows Dedra
to have that turn into actual villainy. It's not. Yeah,
And what's disconcerting about it is that you then wonder if,
like it makes her play as worse even than her boss,
(09:40):
who just seems like a really great paper pusher and
people manager. Yeah, you could sit there and kind of wonder, well,
what did he do to get up to the top
of the ranks, But that doesn't matter. Dedre is now
more personally horrific than he is even though he runs
the entire bureau, or he at least reports to you.
(10:00):
He's the boss that we encounter. Now. It starts off
so strong with that. We switch to the prison where
and Or is and we see him going day to
day with everything. As we flip the storylines, we of
(10:21):
course also bring Cyral back into everything because we you know,
previously we talked about we brought him in. Do you
think that first half of the episode, not the back
half the first half of the episode, do you see
any challenges with the momentum the handoff between those segments.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
So no, I think that And this is the interesting thing,
you know. You know, we've talked about the whole serial thing,
right and kind of how crazy it is and kind
of how weird it is, and and yet you know,
one of the things that happens in this episode is
Seria himself just we realize, Okay, oh, he's a he's
(11:03):
a crazy he's he's crazy, right, uh. And and not
only is he crazy, but he's a crazy stalker.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
And And what I find to be fascinating about that
is the way in which this, of course is going
to then build with Dedre herself, right, you know, and
and and it's going to tap into something with her
which is going to be really fascinating. And so but no,
I thought that that really played well because even though
I don't necessarily still really care about the whole serial storyline,
(11:35):
what's happening with mon Mathma is just so good, you know.
I mean, we we we learn that, you know, she's
related to Vow uh. And you know, we see Voo
really taking to heart the conversation she had with Santa,
and and she has very much kind of hardened and
(11:55):
changed in that sense, and she's trying to galvanize mand
for for that calling that they have taken up the
vowels that they have made to the rebellion. And yet
it's it's fascinating because you know, you can just see
like nobody cares, nobody's listening. This episode is perfectly named
(12:17):
because you know, what mon is talking about is so
incredibly important, right, It's the most important thing that's happening
in the galaxy. Everybody's freedom is being stripped away, and
nobody seems to care. Why because nobody's listening, and they
couldn't give to you know what. And then to see
the weight of the mask that she's having to wear
(12:41):
and what it's doing to her. You know, she has
no connection with her family. Her daughter hates her, her
husband is awful, and it treats her like dirt. And
now she's learning that the only way that possibly you
get out of the situation she's in is to apparently
(13:05):
go to some shady chandrillin muddy laundering dude. So there
will be no more veneer for her anymore in the
sense that she's able to keep her hands clean whatsoever.
Like she's gonna have to start playing dirty, and is
she gonna be willing to do that, and so like
(13:28):
that storyline to me, you know, obviously we'll get to
what's going on in Narkeina.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Five, but.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
That storyline to me just really brings home the cost
you know that you're seeing for somebody like like man Mathma,
who you know we know from from the prequels and
the stuff that's come out with her in it. You know,
whether it was in the Clone Wars, she was probably
more like Padme kind of this idealist, you know, like
(14:01):
thinking that that they could solve problems type of things.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
Hang on, it's solely being stripped away. I want to
pull on that thread though. Do you think that had
she lived, do you think pad May would have faced
the same sort of crucible moment? Yes, perfect world situation,
Padme goes into hiding, goes off, She continued, Do you
think she goes down this road? Because the thing is
(14:25):
this is where Okay, and I know you always knock
me for like, oh, prestige television and stuff like that. Fine, okay,
so let me conceide this all prestige television, long storytelling
arc sort of thing. What feels disconnected at this point
if I'm looking at it from like a macro perspective
is very obviously, You're right. The point of what man
(14:48):
Mathma is going through is that she has to come
down and get in the mud with everybody else. She
can no longer pretend that she can stay clean and
do this quote unquote the high ground way. She can't
be on the high ground anymore. I wish that we're
better connected in this context right now with Saw and Luthen.
(15:12):
It's a little too disconnect. Yes, I know her cousin
is there. We know her cousin is tied. We know
this from a macro perspective, it's just a little too
distant from seeing Saw. It's a little too distant from
some Luthen stuff to remind us that it's like she's
(15:33):
part of that cadre of leaders that's discussing things right now.
Is there a quote unquote solution to that. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
I'm not saying.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
I think I'm saying, like, from a macro perspective, I
would like to see that happening a little bit more compressed.
Okay for those moments.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
No, I kind of get that, you know, I think
that one of the things that h on the other
side of that, why I think it works is because
that's the difficulty with this. You know, when Man tries
to talk about Luthen to vow, she shuts it down, right,
because there has to be that distance between them kept,
(16:18):
you know, because who knows who could hear. And so again,
I think that that's the other thing is we have
man Mathma who's being asked to do all these things,
and yet she really is truly kind of isolated, right,
she doesn't really have anyone, you know. Luthan has these
(16:41):
other people that he is able to have conversations with,
and he's not in that same position, like he's not
in this completely alone, right, And I think that's something
that makes the place that mon Mothma is uh specifically
(17:06):
and uniquely different than kind of everybody else.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
I don't I don't disagree. I say you are.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
I'm saying, like I what you were saying where you
were just kind of hoping it's it's closer and everything.
I totally get what you're saying, and I can I
can see how you know that would be really really interesting.
I think that you know, with Ah, with the way
that it's done, I think it's it's meant to make
(17:37):
us feel that isolation for her.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Yeah, I mean, I I I get what you're saying
with that, I don't know that I agree with it
as an approach. I think that Additionally, this is one
of those times where I think they could have they
could have accelerated a little bit more. I'm not taking
anything away from the Narkina five stuff. I think that
(18:02):
stuff is absolutely engrossing. It's absolutely engrossing to see things
coming together, to see the rumor spreading, to see Ken
o'loy sort of struggling with his own loss of hope
about everything, seeing seeing him realizing in real time, Oh
my gosh, I've been lied to completely. Everything I pinned
(18:24):
my hopes top is an absolute lie.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Yeah, his world is shattered in this way and it it's.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
And the thing is again, I don't because I don't
pay attention to this stuff, but like did Andy serkis
at least get nominated for any acting awards for his
appearance in the series.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
But because he's so great in this series.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Denise Goff, I think golf is how you pronounce her
last name, and he are phenomenal. The series doesn't work
without the two of them. Yeah, I agree, I yes,
I think that we have, you know, I mean we've
talked about how you know, Diego luna Is is born
to play this role. He inhabits it. Yeah, at this point,
(19:10):
like you almost look at it and you like it's
effortless for him. At this point it's obviously isn't, but
it feels effortless for him. I see the character. I
don't see him anymore. He is Cassie and andorm I agree.
So let's set that. Let's box it up, Let's tie
a bow on it. Let's set that over to the side.
We've said it enough times. Denise Goff Andy serkis absolutely
(19:32):
key to the success of this particular episode. This is
where the casting director absolutely wins their paycheck forgetting these
two people on the show.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
This is redemption for Andy Serkis and star Wars.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Yes, but I'm also going to go out there and
say that Christopher Fairbank, who plays Ouloff, the guy who's
aged and having trouble with his hands and stuff like that,
Oh my gosh, that guy. Yeah, that's the type of
role that's thankless because what the show tells us to
(20:09):
care about is how people are reacting to him. But
what he's giving the audience and the other characters is
so key to what's happening right now, and it's unfortunate.
I think probably something why. I think there could have
(20:30):
been an opportunity to make some of these things work
a little bit more smoothly, because we talked about this,
the whole Clone Wars thing where he said, oh, well,
you know you have the three arcs and stuff like that.
I am going through Clone Wars, as I've talked about
while we're recording this again with my youngest and as
(20:53):
I hit these episodes. Here's the difference. And it's primarily
a run time thing. The majority of those episodes can
really stay tightly focused on a plot line, and maybe
there's a b plot line, but primarily we're in one spot,
one series of events, really tightly focused. And I think
(21:13):
that Christopher fairbanks performance is a casualty of saying no,
this has got to be forty five minutes to an hour.
If this were a more tightly focused, like prison only episode,
I think Christopher Fairbanks gets more spotlight on him. That's
not me saying restructure the whole episode just for him.
I'm not saying anything like that. I'm just saying, this
(21:35):
is my way of heaping praise on him sure for
what he did, is to say that he is a
victim of the way they decided to structure the storytelling here,
I think, at least, I mean, if I'm wrong, if
there's like documented evidence out there that no everybody spend
as much time going on about him as I did, Okay,
I will gladly withdraw the point. But were there any
(22:00):
other supporting performances that you looked at that you were like, yeah, yeah,
that really made this work?
Speaker 2 (22:06):
You know.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Strangely enough, the one that's that's that might be shocking
to you is Cyril's mother, because like, how many how many?
How many people have experienced that kind of in their
life with a parent who has wrapped themselves into your
(22:29):
life in this way?
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (22:32):
And where you know, and even if you haven't seen that,
are haven't experienced it right, You may have seen it
right with a friend of yours where that parent was
so overly involved in their child's life because they were
utilizing their life as a way to live vicariously. They
(22:55):
had wrapped all of themselves into you. And I thought
that that that portrayal of his mother was actually very
well done, and it's just what's so well done about
it is she's so grating, she's so frustrating as a character,
(23:19):
and that's exactly what you need her to be. There
really isn't anything likable about her and the way she's
portraying it. I think that then makes it really well done.
So I got to give her credit for being able
to pull that off in a way that just kind
of makes my skin crawl a little bit every time
(23:40):
that she's on screen.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
You almost wonder in other series the serial character winds
up being a serial killer. A serial killer.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
The guy feel Maybe that's why that's his name, because
that's what he comes off as, right, he comes off
as somebody who seems like at any moment he's going
to snap.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
And this is gonna sound crazy. Maybe that's the frustrating
thing about the ceial arc is we know we're so
inculcated with knowing where it points in other series, but
it doesn't go there.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
I mean, at least it hasn't there yet.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
Yeah, so well, I would be surprised if it did.
But do you think there's something to that that? Like,
sometimes we wind up so used to seeing certain characters
go off in a certain way in so much other
material that when it doesn't go that way in a
piece of material, we react to it in a certain
(24:40):
way where we're like, no, that's not right, that's not
how you're supposed to do it, Like it's it's like
seeing somebody make a sandwich in a different way. Or
the kid in the Never Ending Story eat the core
of the apple, which horrified me as a child, Like,
that's the one thing I walk away with from The
Never Ending Story as a kid eats the entire apple,
including the cord. I'm like, I remember saying to my
dad I was a kids seeing it. I was like, Dad,
(25:01):
who who does that? And he was like, oh, well,
you know some people do that. It's like what people
eat the core? And like is that? Is this the
same sort of thing where it's like we're reacting to
cerial well, like, okay, come on, become a serial killer
do something terrible. And he does terrible things, but they're
all like sort of like intellectually terrible and not like
killing people and keeping a trophy of their foot in
(25:23):
his you know, in his bedroom somewhere.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
You know, I think too, you know, especially in this
episode with his conversation with Deirdre, you know, we get
this since that he is a fanatic, right he has been,
(25:48):
he has been radicalized by the empire, and it's mission right,
this mission of order at any cost, and that no
matter what you have to do, you create that order.
And honestly, that's incredibly terrifying, right, Like, I think that's
(26:11):
what they are trying to do with him as a character.
They're trying to show what happens when somebody becomes a
sold out believer in an ideology to the point where
it controls them completely and utterly and there's no other
thought process happening in their brain. That's what's happened to Cyril.
(26:35):
And you know, I think that it's the thing that
we could relate to. Of course, in the time period
that we live in, right we see that happening unfortunately
all too frequently. But it's not just our time period
to which that's an issue. This is something to which
we have seen, you know, throughout history, which is again
the type of thing that you know, Gilroy is pulling
(26:58):
from on purpose. And so you know, I think that's
kind of where that comes down for me.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
Well, I really think, honestly, the thing that I go
back to is I think that again, going back to
the opening of the show and the alternative form of torture,
you would look at that and you would say, well,
they're not harming Bis in a physical way. They're not
beating Bis, they're not you know, fake drowning her, They're
(27:29):
not doing these certain things. All they're doing is they're
playing some noises that mess with your head. And what
I think is really I mean, the reason I keep
going back to it is because it's really hard not
to feel like that is a very specific criticism of
(27:50):
current times, specifically in Western culture, maybe global culture too.
And I'm not saying that's a negative, but I'm saying
the torture aspect of it, the quote unquote alternative forms,
where oh, is it really torture? It's hard to describe,
you know, because torture is usually this is usually that.
(28:13):
I think. Maybe that's why I think it's so adult
the way they do it is because in the aftermath
of nine to eleven, those of us who are old
enough to have lived through it and have a memory
of it, these sorts of questions still rankle a little
(28:33):
bit because of the fact I look at that scene
and I do not sympathize with Deidre at all. I
do not think she's doing anything correct. I don't think
anything that they're doing is correct. Yeah, but you see
how easy it is when you feel justified to do
something like this because from ddrous perspective, Mix is a
(28:59):
rep and lives depend on finding Cassian and Or and
I have to do extreme means to find this man
who's responsible for murder. Meanwhile, shelving in the back of
my brain, Cassian is literally responsible for murder. Yeah, forget
the heist. He's literally responsible for murder from the very
(29:22):
first get go, in the very first episode. And it's
so easy, because you talk about the radicalization of Cyril,
it's so easy to find yourself justifying taking that extra
little step. Well, I'm not hitting bicks, I'm just messing
with her head, Shelby, Fine, as long as she talks
to me. You see how easy it is to sell
(29:44):
it to anybody who's willing to intellectually rationalize it that
if you took this, say to Cyril, if you took
this to the average person on Coruscant and he said,
this is what I'm going to do is I'm gonna
put these headphones on. It's gonna play a really unsettling
tone and then I'll stop after a little bit and
she can tell me what she's saying. It's really easy
(30:04):
to present that in an abstract way because again, you're
not leaving any marks on her body. Yeah. I just
think that's I mean, am I am I pushing too
hard into this? No?
Speaker 1 (30:15):
I don't think you are pushing too hard on that,
you know. I think what's what's interesting is is the
way in which we're seeing I think the terrifying thing
that the Empire does not waste people if they don't
have to, right, I mean that isn't that what we're
(30:38):
seeing on our Quina five right, which you know they're there.
Their big slip up on their Quina five is placing
people back in the system so that other people can
find out about it, right, and which is where everything
goes to hell in a hand basket for them, right
they they and so in that I find that really
(31:02):
fascinating because they they aren't just necessarily about taking people
out for no good reason. What we're seeing is is
that they they are willing to utilize people's blood, sweat
and tears to get what they desire from them. And
(31:24):
two build their empire, right that it's built on the
back of slaves basically, you know, you think of ancient
Egypt with the is uh the Hebrews, right uh. And
you know, and and that's but that's been happening ever
(31:48):
since and and so this empire is no different and
and and therefore I think it it subtly makes us
kind of have to think about all of the uncomfortable
places within you know, the recent past and even in
our daily life now where it's like human trafficking. It's
(32:13):
a huge issue, you know, and yet so many people
don't seem to care.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
So that's one of the cheap goods from Timu, right well, I.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Mean yeah, so isn't that just the empire to a
t they are the ultimate bread and circuses?
Speaker 3 (32:34):
Yes, But tacking onto that as well, saying with the
prison thing, once you have the source of cheap free labor,
because if you think about it, people are the one
thing that's perpetually replacing itself. It's a renewable resource, and
you just keep finding reasons to keep people in prison.
(32:59):
And I think again, I know, I made the glib
comment about Timou and everything like that, but yeah, I mean,
people are easier to maintain than droids. We know how
to do it because we are people, and it doesn't
require any skilled technician to keep a person running exactly
because your food, here's your sleep, here's you're this, you
need this minimum. And I know that doctors have told
(33:20):
me that I know how to run you because I
know how to run me, and running a machine requires
a technician. Blah blah blah blah. Anyway, I think that
it really is a it's just that unsettling. I mean,
even in the United States, in these United States where
(33:40):
you and I are, you know, in California, there was
a big scandal because they were purposely keeping people in
prison to keep cheap labor and such going. And so,
you know, you talk about like there's stuff in current
times and stuff in the past. We're talking about the
torture and everything, and it's like it's so easy in
modern times to say, oh, well, that's something somebody did
back then, and then you turn around and you're like, oh,
(34:02):
wait a minute, Oh no, somebody today is doing that.
And that's that That's a question that seems to be
inherent in the show. And I guess maybe it's a
good it's a good one. To like sort of like
start start rounding third on is do you see an
underlying message similar to the original Guiding six films of
(34:27):
Star Wars in this episode pointing toward hope because that's
what we're always looking for. Is there any spark of
hope within this episode or does or do you feel
really bleak at the end of this show at the
end of this ninth episode.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
You know, I think I think the beauty of this
episode is that and Or has already been planning this
idea of leading a rebellion, right, He's already been working
on the plan, and what he's needed is to find
a way to get ken O Lloy on his side. Yeah,
(35:11):
and this is again, you know, I think we've talked
about many times. Is in so many instances in Star
Wars and in storytelling, and I think honestly even in
just the world in general. And this is why stories
reflect reality. Evil ends up defeating itself and that's and
(35:38):
that's what happens.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
Right.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
The Empire overreaches on our Quina five in a way
that leads them, and their over confidence is their weakness,
and that over confidence being their weakness, and the fact
that you have somebody like and or in there, who's
(36:01):
ready to spark a rebellion here has been waiting for
the right moment, and the right moment came and he
took it, and Keino Lloy by the end of the
episode is on his side, and with that you have
this feeling you left with that hope of Okay, we
are moving forward now and we're getting out of this place, right.
(36:24):
And of course there's the meta knowledge that we know
we're going to get out because we know he's in
rogue one right, but the situation has been so dire
here it really is down to okay, how does this happen?
And seeing all of these pieces kind of on this
(36:44):
moving chess board have been incredibly interesting in this series,
and part of I think this is one of the
things that I find so wonderful about the series, is
allowing us then to just inhabit these places. Maybe you know,
maybe we could be spending more time there than we
necessarily need to be, But I think what it's allowing
(37:07):
us to do is to truly be able to, as
the viewer, marinate in the awfulness that it is to
be under the empire, so that then as we move
towards the second season, and then into Rogue one, and
then into a New Hope. There is that celebration, right, Like,
(37:30):
all of this actually makes the original Star Wars such
a better experience because when that Death Star is destroyed,
there's so much more to that now than there was
back in nineteen seventy seven.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
Bite your tongue. There was plenty to it.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
No, I'm saying I'm not taking anything away from the start.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
You know that.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
I'm just saying now we actually.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
I don't more to it. I believe you just absolutely
dismissed the original Star Wars.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Yes, that is an absolute hater.
Speaker 3 (38:10):
It took more than three hundred and ninety episodes to
get here, folks, but I finally exposed Matt he hates
the original Star Wars. Mail. So let me ask you
this question. And this is something where I think that
(38:32):
this is something where I think the world building they're
doing with like the Mandalorian and Ahsoka speaks to some
of this stuff. I'm gonna ask you a question on
our way out the door here or on the way
back to the temple. I guess I should say what
happened to Narkina five after the Empire fell? I want
(38:52):
your thoughts on that before we close out what happened
to Narkina five. The prisons are Narkeina five when the
empire fell.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
You know, I think that's a great question because one
of the interesting parts about that is that we know
that they're there making parts for the Death Star, right
They're they're creating the massive deflector Dish.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
So what I wonder.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Doesn't really even exist after that project is done, you know, or.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
Or or considering they were building a second one too.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
Or you know, so how long does this exist?
Speaker 3 (39:31):
You know?
Speaker 1 (39:31):
I you know, this is one of the things where
I think it would have been so fascinating to be
able to have those stories about what happens after you know,
Return of the Jedi, and you know, that could have
been an incredible story of liberation of Kia five. Right
this place that they find out is still there, and
(39:57):
you know, so as the second Death Star deflector Dish
is done, I honestly think probably what they do to
it is they leave all of the people there and
they just blow it up. They blow them all away.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
I think that's a valid take on things. My brain
goes in a slightly different way. I I think Operation
Cinder gets them, and I'm willing now that they've worked
that reference in h they've taken it away from three
(40:36):
really poorly written books and had a very excellent exchange
about it with Bill Burr in The Mandalorian. I'm willing
to accept Operation Cinder as a thing. And I think
that part of Operation Cinder would have been to go
around and incinerate the poor people on Narkeina five, because
(40:58):
part of it would have been to cripple the New Republic.
Going around and destroying the things that could have made
it function for a little bit longer. Yeah, would have
been one of the ways. You wouldn't have wanted to
think that the New Republic would have kept Narkina five going,
(41:20):
but honestly, I think it probably would have. It would
have taken the bureaucracy too long to work through it.
And I think the one tantalizing hint of what could
have been if it's not Operations Center is in Tales
of the Empire, when there were a New Republic, envoy
(41:43):
goes to tell Morgan Elsbeth that the Empire's done and
the New Republic is taking over. I could easily see
a warlord with a New Republic envoy showing up and saying,
the people of Narkina five, we have to give them,
you know, full trials, and the and the guy basically
the warden of planet or whatever being like, oh, oh,
that's not going to happen. Yeah, Hey, Animation Department, there's
(42:08):
your queue. We'd love to see things like this. Give
us some short episodes that'd be really rad.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Yeah, I think or or you or you can always
you know, do a just a short season too, you know,
I mean you can you can create you know, many
seasons of things that we would all love to see.
Speaker 3 (42:28):
Our services are free. We give these ideas to you
for free. Matt any last thoughts before we adjourn?
Speaker 1 (42:37):
Yeah, I mean, I think this is a really good episode.
And part of that is that I think it ramps
up the tension. And what's kind of fascinating is is
that this is actually the last part of this arc,
because the escape plays into the last three and so
really this whole arc has been about cementing the horribleness
(43:04):
of the Empire in our minds and for everyone who's
been watching, and I think it's done a really good
job of that. I think this episode, though, it lets
you know what's coming next in the sense that, yes,
we are moving now towards rebellion, full on rebellion, and
(43:32):
I can't wait, man, I think so, I guess if
I gave this a rating, I think this is a
really good, solid four out of five.
Speaker 3 (43:41):
For me.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
It's just a very well done episode and it leaves
me kind of on the edge of my seat for
the next episode, which is always a good thing in television.
And of course, you know, with the way that this
show was released, you had to wait the next week,
right and so, and everybody was talking about it. So
(44:04):
what about you, John, Where would you kind of put
this on a rating scale?
Speaker 3 (44:10):
I think I'd probably end up at a four powered law.
I think that my general reaction is it's like a
three three and a half because I think that it's
a little long in the tooth. I think that there
are certain things that could be tightened up. I'm not
talking about any cuts to Dedra or anything like that.
(44:32):
There's just stuff I think could have been conveyed a
little more quickly. But that's just because that's that's how
I'm wired. You know, whatever, find fault with it if
you want to. But and most listeners do, I think
so you know whatever. I mean, listen, I don't have
I don't have as many years left as I've lived through.
So I got to get these stories faster, okay, like
(44:54):
otherwise I'm going to start watching at one a half speed? Okay,
like the kids do all right? Come on now, if
they don't want to do it, why would it be
an option on Netflix? Matt, That's what I'm asking. Why
would be an option?
Speaker 1 (45:05):
Is the devil?
Speaker 3 (45:06):
That's why I don't know. I don't know. I must
consume content like fast food. It's the only way to
keep up with with everything and watch Real Housewives of
Beverly Hills just as I'm going along. You know, I
got it? Hey, you know what another story idea? Pitch?
Real Housewives of Coruscant. Hear me out, Disney, you can
(45:28):
tap into treads. So I went up with a four.
It's a solid four and it is largely powered by
I mean, I'll be dead honest. I think Denise Goff
is just so stellar. She is so fantastic in her role.
I can't sing her praises enough. She is just absolutely phenomenal.
(45:52):
And that that's why, Like the the floor of this
is a four. There's no way could I could even
like pick it enough on certain things to be like
a three and a half like bang, that is the
that is the floor for it. So you know that
being said, if people want to complain to you, Matt
about the fact that I didn't give it a five
and that I found any flaws at all.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
We rated it the same.
Speaker 3 (46:14):
So I don't know who's going on. But the thing is,
so you came at it from a four from a
positive angle. I came at it from a negative angle.
We're balance of the forest, folks. If people want to
complain about my dark side tendencies, Matt, where can they find?
Speaker 1 (46:26):
Oh man, Well, people should find and complain over at
Kessel Junkie. All over social media. I'm sorry, I mean,
Matt Rushing zero two is where you'll find me, and
you can do that, like I said, all over social media.
Would love to get a chance to catch up with you.
Of course, you can find me as well on the
(46:47):
network with a show called al Post with Dray Kaufman
talking about every single chapter of the Harry Potter series
one chapter of time. Over on the TFM network, we
also find me doing a bunch of different shows with
a lot of Star Trek Talk as well as the
six or two Club, where John is a frequent guest.
We talk about all of the franchises that we love,
not just Star Wars, but we do talk a lot
(47:09):
of Star Wars are there, so you can also check
that out. But John, I mean, if people do want
to catch up with you, see what's going on, even
though you are going to be spending days as you
look at all of your mentions. Once you're back after Lent,
where can people find you?
Speaker 3 (47:25):
Oh? Well, just look for me at Castle Junkie. I'm
on a couple of social networks whatever. Sure send a
message to Castle Junkie if I'm on there after Lent.
I'll respond to you. I promise. You can also find
me here on the network on a show called house Lights,
where we look at the work of different directors. It's
(47:45):
challenging because it's three of us. I'm the only one
with the correct rating and response to every movie. Strange,
but it's a good baseline so that you can compare
with whether the other two co hosts, Tristan and Darren,
are correct. Sometimes they are, sometimes they are. I don't know.
I don't control these things. It's science at this point.
(48:06):
But Matt, you know, I think that it's time for
us to get on program. It's weird that they instituted
that at the Jedi Council. Just feels odd. But I
think it's time to close these negotiations.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
Negotiations are clubs, Join the Revolution, join the Nerd Party
on program
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