April 15, 2025 • 38 mins
The 10th episode of Star Wars Andor gives Matt and John plenty to discuss as the explosively emotional climax of the Narkina 5 prison break, the indictment of detached life, and the role of the hero is not just to save but serve as the symbol that those making difficult choices never can. Join them for a discussion of “One Way Out,” the Star Wars episode that birthed an unforgettable meme among amazing set pieces and performances.
Host
John Mills and Matthew Rushing
Love listening to Aggressive Negotiations, a Star Wars podcast that’s different from all the rest? Then you’ll love The Nerd Party, a one-of-a-kind podcast network focused on all the best of Star Trek, the magical realm of the Harry Potter books, the works of the best film directors in history, the latest from international film and comic stars, and so much more!
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Host
John Mills and Matthew Rushing
Love listening to Aggressive Negotiations, a Star Wars podcast that’s different from all the rest? Then you’ll love The Nerd Party, a one-of-a-kind podcast network focused on all the best of Star Trek, the magical realm of the Harry Potter books, the works of the best film directors in history, the latest from international film and comic stars, and so much more!
Send us your feedback!
Twitter: @TheJediMasters
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheNerdParty/
Email: http://www.thenerdparty.com/contact
Subscribe in Apple Podcasts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the ned Paltea.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hi, this is Nick and Astasu, story editor on Star Wars,
the Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch. And you
are listening to Aggressive Negotiations.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Well, hello, and welcome to Aggressive Negotiations, the Star Wars
podcast that you just don't know how you could live without.
And I am just one of your hosts here, Matthew Rushing,
and we are coming at you from I believe level
thirteen thirteen here on Corussants. It is extremely filthy. They
do not have the cleaning droids down here and with
(00:46):
me as he is always the one and only Juedi
Master John Mills, and I'm sorry you're wearing your the
Real Twin Peaks T shirt?
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Is that?
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Like, I don't know what is that?
Speaker 4 (01:01):
John, Well, let's pull back the curtain. Let's shatter the
illusion of these personas that we've created the real Twin Peaks.
Matt is a festival that I went to celebrating Twin Peaks,
the TV show, the classic TV show that redefined television,
the Oldest Potawan and I flew out a few months
(01:22):
ago to experience Oh wait now, as at this recording,
it was a little more than a month Ago feels
like a lifetime ago. We went to the real town
North Bend, Washington where they filmed the show, and it's delightful.
I highly recommend it everybody. Of course, I highly recommend
the show. And if you really want to infuriate people,
(01:43):
watch the third season and then tell them you don't
hate it. Boy, you think it was you think it
was contentious to say you like the prequels. Oh boy,
just say you like season three of Twin Peaks. It'll
just absolutely infuriate people left and right.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yeah, there you go. It's kind of like, you know,
being a being a Star Trek fan and being like, yeah,
I think actually Enterprise might be one of the best series.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Well, now before we before we just get completely lost
in that other universe and show up with Ahsoka. You know,
make sure you find us wherever you get your podcasts
and give us a star rating review on places like
Apple Podcasts or even Spotify. Help people find the show,
and of course we would love it if you would
share the show with people on you know, something like
(02:29):
an Instagram or next Twitter over on next tour. You
can find the show at the Jedi Masters. In fact,
interact with us there. You know, John and I get
a little lonely, and we'd love to hear from you
about what you're thinking and what you're liking here in
Star Wars, what you're excited for. Maybe you're going to
Star Wars Celebration Japan. We would love to hear about that.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
So we would also love for you to maybe bring
a stickerback or something like that.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Yeah, you good old Jedi master friends over here. That's
pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
And of course you could find us on the entire network.
Was on Facebook at Facebook dot com, slash the nerd Party.
We're online at the nerd Party dot com, and so
check all of that out. You know, YadA, YadA, YadA.
We say it every time. But okay, so John, this
is the episode I think that when people think Star
(03:21):
Wars and or this is probably the episode that comes
to mind. And it's the phrase that galvanized just a
generation of people, right, which was one way out. And
so I think it's only fair that we actually start
(03:45):
this episode with the conversation is that they've finally had it,
They've had enough, you know, to quote what is it?
The film is it?
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (04:00):
I don't I can't remember. It's like it'll come to
me later and I'll hate myself, but you know, I'm
as mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Oh, network, you're thinking that, I was like, I couldn't.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Think of the word network. I don't know why. And so,
but that's that's what happens. And I'll just put it
in this way. The moment that really galvanizes the series
for me, uh is when kein Olloy looks at and
Or and basically just begins repeating all of the things
(04:32):
that and Or has been saying to him for the
past few weeks and then finds his own voice as
he's extructing all of these uh, you know, workers on
what to do. And it's just this incredibly powerful moment
(04:54):
because it's in that moment I think in a lot
of ways, a piece of whom Is as the leader
locks into place because it's that galvanizing moment where he
realizes that the words that he has said has had
an impact on a person to the point to which
not only are they repeating them, but then they're they're
(05:18):
owning them, and then they're utilizing their own words to
add to that to continue that movement. And I found
that to be just you know, it's it's one of
the things I think that the writing, it's just so
well done in that moment, because everything has been building
to this really well.
Speaker 4 (05:39):
I think that sure. I mean, you can absolutely call
out the writing. It is strong writing for this episode.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
I agree with you.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
This is a high water mark episode for people. People
remember this one. People know this one well.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Not just because they literally jump into some high water,
but you.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Know, right, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
But the uh, the fact of the matter is that
the direction, and I think it's Toby Haynes directs this one,
and the direction is what makes that scene really work
super well. You I mean, the talent behind the camera
with this series is what makes it truck along as
well as it does. This is additionally, I mean, I
(06:23):
want to build on what you're saying here, because like,
I have a lot more fun with and or talking
about these sorts of things. But I think that one
of the more interesting things is that when they get
into the room.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
It's like the reveal in the Wizard of Oz.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
It's just these three pasty dudes sitting at control consoles
who are living with them but abstracted from them, and
they're just saying Okay, it's time to say on program,
stand back, we'll do these things. Just say that stuff,
and all of those sorts of things. So even though
(07:02):
these people all live together, they're abstract to each other
until that exact moment, And in that exact moment, suddenly
the horror of the entire situation becomes real. And I
think that's really the thing to sort of look at
as well, is that how easy it is, hiding behind
(07:23):
a screen to abstract somebody, to make them the person
that needs to be controlled, or the person that's the enemy,
or to even transmit a message designed to break their spirit.
Because all they hear when that guy talks into the
microphone is all in program, you know, like it sounds
(07:46):
like this big, ominous voice, and it's just it's some
dude that looks like he'd lose a slap fight with
one of my kids.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
You know, it's you sort of see it.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
You're like, wait, this is what I've been afraid of
this whole time, you know, like it It really I
think speaks to that idea that the machine is powered
not only by terrible people, but people who are once again,
just doing their job. We've seen the shore trooper that
arrests and Or, and he's obviously some dude on a
power trip who's behind a mask, and so he's abstracted
(08:21):
the world and abstracted himself. He could do whatever he
wants to because he's behind the mask. And these guys
are behind a screen, and so they don't think about
the consequences of their action. And so I think there's
this running theme of abstraction and how it allows us
to dehumanize those around us because they're not people when
(08:43):
we don't encounter them.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's an excellent point, and
a big part of that I think also plays into
you know, seeing those guys in those scenes as they're
being surprised at what's happening it, you know, you immediately
are called back to when and Or was like they're
(09:05):
scared and power. People in true power aren't scared and
and And I think that's what's kind of so fascinating
about that, is that what we're dealing with here is
this like microcosm of something that's going to continue to spread,
right and and and that the fear then is like
(09:26):
something you even see in Star Wars, where you know,
the guy comes up to tark and he's like, we
we've analyzed their tech pattern and there is actually a chance, right,
And he's like, do you want to get on your
shuttle basically and get out of here? And Tarkan's like,
at a moment of triumph, But there's a fear there,
there is, and that's that same fear that we kind
(09:47):
of see in these guys as they all realize, oh,
we are as out of luck here. We are up
a creek without a paddle, and there's no way because,
as and Or has been telling Keino, they don't have
the men and they know it, and so the only
control they have over us is fear. But their fear
(10:08):
is and it's that you know, meme, you see of
the few task masters and the people rise up and
they've got nothing, And that's exactly what, you know, we
get in this episode. And I love you calling that
out because.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
There is a.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Real human element to this that does kind of put
a face to some of these people in the Empire,
and that does make the morality of all of this
just feel more weighty than when and it's one of
the reasons obviously George even talked about it. He puts,
(10:47):
you know, stormtroopers with the helmet on. They're all kind
of the same size, so you can't see their faces.
They become this faceless enemy and there's a reason for that,
you know. And yet you know, you're also reminded in
(11:07):
some sense that the game that the Empire is playing
at this point of keeping these guys in when they
talk about, oh, they're making up our sentences, you know,
they're that we're never getting out of here. I mean,
they're just literally in a concentration camp where they're being
well fed, but they're being well fed because they're doing
(11:28):
a job and they don't care if you die, They'll
just bring in more guys to replace you. And you know, right,
and that is just I mean, they're complex, yes.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
Yeah, and that's that's you know, I know, we we
talked about that last time, but that it really is
one of those things where you have to wonder the
evil that is being perpetrated here. We have the abstraction,
we have the evil, We have these things, and it's
one of those things where I think a line that
people blow past sometimes as well is somebody saying, during
(12:03):
this whole thing, people don't know what's happening here.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
So we have that other layer of abstraction.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
It's just like people buying stuff on Timu don't think
about where it's made. They don't care. All it is
is a picture on a screen and that's what I'm buying.
I don't have to think about it. Yeah, And I
think that in addition to that, this is and I
said this before this arc and specific when I'm talking
(12:33):
about my previous issues with the series and the way
that it is, you know, distributing storyline and pace and
tone and all those sorts of things.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
This is the arc.
Speaker 4 (12:45):
This is what makes everybody fall in love with this series,
regardless of the other issues that they have. This arc,
this Narkina five arc and specific and it ends so well,
specifically because of the moment with ken O looy when
he freezes and he says I can't swim, and the
(13:07):
added tragedy of it because you see and or freeze
for a second and he's about to go get him
when the surge of people pushes him over.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Yeah, and I'm left.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
This is what I think is so brilliant about this episode.
I'm left wondering what happened to ken O Loi. Yeah,
they came back in. They took control of that prison again.
Was he simply put back in, was he summarily executed?
Was he able to be a stainless steel rat and
escape into it and never get caught? And that would
(13:40):
be a very interesting series for me to you know, hey,
ancillary books, animation, whatever you want to do, tell a
story of Keno lay or somebody like Keno Looi who
gets into the ducts and he's he's the thing that
goes bump and skinners in the night. It's not rats,
it's Keno Loi and he's in the ducts and he's
trying to get people to move around again and try
(14:04):
to get the insurrection going again. And I think that
would be a super interesting thing because that is I
think that was the perfect way to resolve him, is
to leave that question because it's resolved enough that we
(14:24):
can talk about it. What happened to him. If they
had killed him, we would have been unhappy if he
had hit the water and drowned. We would have been
unhappy if he had gone back in because he was
too afraid. We would have been unhappy if and Or
had rescued him. Now we've suddenly got another character that's
vying for protagonist time. And additionally, Jock my memory was
(14:48):
Cyril in this episode? I don't think he was?
Speaker 3 (14:50):
Was he?
Speaker 2 (14:51):
No?
Speaker 1 (14:51):
It wasn't. It was great.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
Interesting, it's interesting how good this episode was.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
And yeah, there was no Cyril in it, was there?
Speaker 1 (15:00):
So I again, I mean we have to talk about
just you know, Andy Serkis is a revelation in this episode,
and he truly shows what an incredible actor he is
in all of these scenes. But that moment where and
we'll talk about it a second, because the music also
plays a huge part in that scene as well, like
(15:23):
moving you, but there's almost like a giddy, weird joy
and he's like, I can't swim.
Speaker 5 (15:30):
I can't swim, like to realize, like I got this far,
I'm out, I'm free, but yeah I can't swim, so
but at least I'll die free. And there's just something
so human about that moment where it's like I just
have to laugh at the cruel irony that sometimes life is.
(15:53):
And he plays that to perfection in the way he
delivers the the look on his face and then they
combine the music that has been swelling this whole time,
and you know, Star Wars is so known for the
way in which music completes what's happening on screen, and
(16:15):
everything is working gangbusters in that moment to sell this
emotional release that you've had. Now in this third episode
where we've been watching you know him be locked up,
it's just oh my gosh. You know, I'm gushing, but
(16:36):
it really is it. It is legitimately one of the
best things that Star Wars has ever done because of
the way in which it really truly works together.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
It does work really well together.
Speaker 4 (16:50):
But I think even this is one of those episodes
where I would call it out because it works even
if you haven't seen anything beforehand.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Greed agreed.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
This is very unique that you can have something that
is part of such a larger arc. But I could
just show this episode as a standalone to somebody and
they could still recognize, Oh, this is just really good.
I get everything. I get what's happened. Although the one
the one thing with that ties into the other bit
of performance that we would all heat praise upon, and
(17:24):
that is with with our good old friend Scarsguard, who
delivers a monologue that's beautiful because you really feel as
you know, I'll.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
Address it as a longtime fan.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
Saugerera is not capable of delivering this monologue because he
has no regret about the path that he's chosen. He's
embraced it. He's more like he's more like Vader. This
is who I am, this is what I'm sticking with,
and it will take a whole lot to change his heart.
Whereas you see, the real tragedy here is that we
(18:05):
have a character who's on quote unquote our side, but
lives every day with the knowledge, as he says, that
he has to use the tactics.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Of his own enemy. But he's so.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
All in at this point. The only thing he can
do is ride that all the way to the end.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
This is it.
Speaker 4 (18:24):
This is the only ticket he has, and it's the
only one he's going to cash in. And I think
that's that monologue is beautiful, And I think that the
one regret I would have is that it's nested in
this episode, which is so terrific with Andy Serkis and
(18:45):
Diego Luna, and it's like it's everything vying for attention
to another one of those things where I know they
couldn't put it anywhere else. There's no magic wand for
this this is the best place it could be, probably,
but it breaks my heart because it feels like this
deserved more time for me to soak in it, like
(19:08):
an extra beat or two afterward in action, as opposed
to having this wonderful moment and then saying, Okay, sorry,
we gotta gotta kind of wrap things up now, you know.
And it's like, ah that that sort of thing stings
to an extent because it is so good and it
gets so overshadowed by the fact that there are so
many other great performances in the episode, So it's like
(19:32):
an embarrassment of Rich's thing.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
No, I mean it's I mean that speech. And one
I think is so interesting is you know, this speech
is really Luthen explaining the cost of the rebellion on
(19:57):
so many that will go under noticed and unnamed and
uh and and in some ways, I think that's kind
of what makes this this story with and Or so
interesting because he also himself in some ways is unnoticed
(20:19):
and unnamed, you know, because you know, when we think
about it historically, you know that this is not These
aren't characters that we hear their names uh in the
original trilogy. And yes, I know I know the reason, right,
but I think that this actually goes to just prove
that point of yes, they are going to be people
(20:41):
who did things in the background that that nobody else
could do or would do, and yet without them we
wouldn't be where we are today. And there and then
the way that Scars Guard just delivers those lines, I
mean it, it's incredibly heartbreaking. And when he just finally
(21:05):
gets to the point where he says everything, I've given everything,
it's powerful.
Speaker 4 (21:13):
Well, you know, I think also the thing that is
interesting because okay, I'll have two separate points here, One
is your point about in the original six movies, we
don't have these and door moments where we see, oh,
the people who sacrificed everything and lost it all in
(21:33):
their identity and everything. We see Luke Skywalker, we see
the big hits, We see Obi Wan and Anakin and
Padme and Lea. We see these characters having their moment.
We don't see them having the long dark night of
the soul in the same way that these characters do.
That's true, and that's what I'm going to double back
(21:54):
to because going from that, you ask the average person
and unless they're a history buff, they don't know who
Francis Marion is in the American Revolution. The Swamp Fox
is a bit of a mystery because he's not George Washington,
he's not Thomas Jefferson, he's not Ben Franklin. But Francis
(22:18):
Marion was incredibly key to the you know, to the
American Revolution. He was very important. They kind of made
a movie about him called The Patriot where it was
kind of him but whatever.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
But it's still not a car.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
He's like, you know, he's like an andor where it's
like it it really needed him to work. But we
talk about the larger names in the thing, and the
thing that I would come back around to is by
opening it up and showing these characters. Do you think
(22:57):
because this is a this is a This is something
people have been talking about since Rogue one first came out,
and some of the post Rogue one materials have leaned
into this, especially in writing. I think I think Alphabet
Squadron had a character say something to this effect. Where
does it take anything away from Luke in The Rebellion,
(23:22):
or Leah or Han, Orlando or you know the characters
we know from the films. Does it take anything away
from them to have these stories show such a gritty, dark,
sacrificial aspect to them.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
No, I don't think so. And I think a part
of that is and Luthen actually says that right when
he's making this speech, He's like, stands before me is
the hero and we need the heroes. And so the
role that Luke and Leah Han even mon Mathma will
(24:00):
play right is to be the people that people see
as kind of the hero is important and you need
those because there's they're inspirational, right that there there is
there's just something about that. I mean, we need that.
And so No, I think what this just does. It
(24:20):
just adds depth, right, It doesn't take anything away. I
think it just adds depth. And of course, you know, again,
Gilroy's whole point in this was to say I wanted
to take Star Wars as seriously as anybody had ever
taken it, and I think he does that in this show.
But in doing that, I just don't I don't think
(24:43):
that it it does take anything away from any of
the other characters. I think it just really Yeah, I
think the same thing that we've talked about with any
expanded universe novel. What you want that thing to do
(25:04):
is to enhance the thing that I then watch later
on or you know, and I think and or then
just enhances my enjoyment and my understanding of everything around it.
And so no, I don't. I don't feel that. Do
you think about it or feel that at all?
Speaker 3 (25:25):
No, I don't think that way. Primarily I.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
I don't personally think that way because I think that
it this is just a different story. This is you
know this so meanwhile over here, And I guess maybe
when you grow up a comic book fan, you're used
to this sort of thing where they were constantly doing meanwhile,
you know that sort of thing. I think that there
(25:53):
is a frustration I have is when I see it
creep into other materials, Like it irked me when I
saw in one of the books where somebody was talking about, oh, yeah, well,
Luke Skywalker wouldn't have been anything without jin Urso, And
I'm like, why can't they both just be heroes?
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Guys?
Speaker 4 (26:13):
Why do you have to take away from what person
A did because of what person B did. Why don't
you just say person A and B both did great things,
as opposed to trying to say one is greater than
you know one.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Is greater exactly.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
That's the type of stuff that that I have seen
that gets under my skin.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
Yeah, but that's.
Speaker 4 (26:35):
That's something that so long as it's not like quote
unquote official materials, I don't really paint it any mind.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Yeah, it's probably in a book that only like five
people read anyway.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
So probably probably, but the same thing.
Speaker 5 (26:49):
But I.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
Throw as much shade as you want to. It's it's
it's an irritating thing to me because again it demonstrates
a limited point of view, as obi Wan might say.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
Yeah, but.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
I have to ask, is there anything that you see
as a failing in the episode? Is there anything where
it falls short?
Speaker 1 (27:16):
So I think, okay, just no, there there isn't And
a big part of that is because I think you
mentioned one, there's no serial in this episode, so we're
not shoving things into the episode that doesn't need to
be there. And the thing that the things that are
there are accentuating the a story of them escaping, which
(27:42):
is all the hard decisions they're having to make to
make this happen. So what are we seeing. We're seeing
mon Mathma have to make these terrible decisions for the
things she knows she needs the most for the greater good,
getting herself you know, into bed with this, you know
Davos character figuratively speaking figuratively speaking, yes, very figuratively. And
(28:07):
yet what does he want in return? He doesn't want
money because he doesn't care about money. He wants to
utilize her for prestige. And then he also wants to
to connect their families, you know, via the possibility of marriage,
which we've already seen, and we get a taste even
(28:30):
more in this episode about the fact that Chandrillin marriages
are marriages of more convenience and more of you know,
political ramifications than they really are love. And so therefore
(28:51):
that's what he's basically asking for for his son and
her daughter, which you know I find to be again,
will she compromise her values and beliefs to have happen
what she knows needs to happen? And again, like her
(29:13):
performance is great there, the guy who's playing Davos is
just so wickedly despicable.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
Can I just say what I love about the fact
that they named him Davos is because of Davos, Switzerland,
where all those super wealthy people show up at least
like once a year, where and they talk about how
they're going to shape the fate of the world. I'm like,
that is some slick character naming like that is just
absolutely like I'm like, I stand up and I salute
(29:44):
that because I'm like, man, I see what you did.
I love you for that is that is some top
not sneaking in commentary right there.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Yeah. I couldn't agree more. And so no, I mean
there for me, this is this is the episode which
is just like you know, it's it's kind of the
pinnacle of the season so far, where it's just everything
is working on all cylinders and the editing of the
(30:16):
storylines is perfection. And I think it also, I mean,
even the little bit we get with the empire and
stuff all again, it's all playing in to every other
part of the story. It's so it just kind of
goes to the show something that we've batted around a
little bit. It's like, did we need the serial character
(30:39):
in this the way that he is portrayed and or
just even just the way he is? But no, I mean,
this episode is is awesome. Where do you land on
this one? And was there anything that I know you're
more of a stickler for editing and that kind of stuff,
So was there anything that you felt like could have
been excised or done differently.
Speaker 4 (30:58):
Or honestly, no, I think that this is I will
go ahead and hang perfect episode metal around this episode.
I can honestly say that the first time I went
through this series, I was touch and go. Until Narkina five.
(31:19):
I was kind of like, Eh, you know, it's good,
but it's not you know, it's not light me on fire.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
I really don't like this serial guy.
Speaker 4 (31:26):
And I'm going along and that it hits this episode
and this is the one where I was like, okay, fine,
I'm riding it out till the end because this is magnificent.
I think in retrospect we're going to look back and
realize that this is a little bit more classical structure
in the sense that this is the climax of the
(31:47):
story and the rest is as the French might say,
denu mont, where it's just that it's the falling action
from here on out. This is the climax for me
of this season because this is this is where everything
gets set. Everything from this point forward is wrap up
(32:07):
and am I right? Am I wrong? I'll find out
on this rewatch. But that's my impression of it is
like this episode does if This is the climax of everything.
It hits every mark that it needs, and it is
as a result, in the context of the series.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
This is a perfect episode. Wouldn't touch a darn thing this.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
Yeah, this is a five out of five, Like you know,
this is this is everything that you wanted from from
the season and it's it's incredibly well done. And rewatching it,
you know, I was. I was just as moved watching
(32:51):
it this time as I was the first time I
watched it. And I think that is the hallmark of
a good Star Wars episode is when you can watch
the episode and every single emotion that they are wanting
you to feel, you feel again that I put this
(33:16):
in the same category as the way I feel about
like watching and then rewatching the finale to the Clone
Wars those four episodes. You know, that's the kind of
feeling I get when I watch this.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
I love that for you, I don't.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
I'm going to preface it and say, well, I consider
this a perfect episode in this context. I don't know
that emotionally, I get to the same point as what
you're describing, because that final arc of the Clone Wars
devastated me in a different way that left a little
bit more of a there's a little bit more of
a mark left at the end of that one, which
(33:58):
tied into a lot of other things. But I I
respect what you're saying there, and.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Yeah, no, and I I think I get why. I
I definitely get why I think you feel the way
that you do. And I think what I am not.
Let me put it this way. I am not saying
that I necessarily think that they're on the same level
(34:32):
in their importance to me. M okay, I'm saying they
are on the same level in the sense that the
motions that the creators want me to feel in these
moments I see is just the same for me. And so, yeah,
what you said made me want to clarify that, because yeah,
(34:53):
that that is not Ah.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
Well, that's good because I I was about.
Speaker 4 (35:00):
To be like zod in Man of Steel goersy, you know,
so you know, at least sort of. Yeah, So yeah,
that's an important clarification.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Yeah, yes, No, I'm glad you asked the you know,
you said what you said, because it definitely I don't
want people to kind of come away with this being like,
oh wow, can I trust Matt's opinion at all anymore?
Speaker 3 (35:22):
You can't. You can't. This is this is an emergency
message I've taken over the prison.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
I'm telling you right now you can't anyway. Yeah, man,
I one of the things that I think I'm really
loving about, you know, I'm loving about this is just
us being like, once we kind of got back to
some of the pulled back from some of the kind
(35:48):
of frustrating things that you had about the show. I've
just really been enjoying the way in which this We've
been able to have some great discus Russians about about
the show, and it's been a lot of fun. So
but but John, you know, if people do want to
(36:12):
catch up with you and talk to you about the
things that you've got going on in your life, or
you know, maybe maybe they just want to You're like,
you know what, I want to know what John thinks
about this? In Star Wars? Where can people find you?
Speaker 4 (36:27):
I don't even want to know what I think about
in Star Wars. But I appreciate everybody humoring me and
letting me talk every so often into the microphone.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
Here.
Speaker 4 (36:34):
You can reach me at the user named kessel Junkie.
When I am active on social media, which is not
often right now, but when I am, that's where you
can find me. And you can find me right here
on the network, co hosting a show called house Lights,
a film director podcast where we it's basically an excuse
for us to watch movies and talk about it. It's
(36:55):
a Tristan Radell and Darren Moser co host it with me,
and it's basically just us sitting around talking and having
fun about movies.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
So you know, give it a shot.
Speaker 4 (37:05):
But I do also fill some of my spare time
over on the six oh two Club over on the
TFM network, which everybody should love, and I think, Matt,
that's one of the places where they can find you
online as well.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Absolutely, you can find me at six oh two Club
talking about all those franchises that we love outside of
Star Trek, and then on the TFF network you'll find
me with a lot of Star Trek talk, and I
hope you'll check all those shows out Here on the
Nerd Party Network, you'll find me on a show called
owl Post where Dreya Kaufman and I talked about every
(37:39):
single chapter of Harry Potter series, one chapter at a time.
And last but not least, you can find me over
on social media under the name Matt Rushing Zone too,
So if I'm on that platform, that'll be the name
that I'm under. But you know, John, I hear the
chimes of meditation there at the Temple, and you know,
(37:59):
after the stress of this episode, I think I could
use some meditation in the room of a thousand fountains.
So I think it's time we close these negotiations.
Speaker 4 (38:08):
And I'll just be jumping around in the fountains being
a scamp master.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
Rushing Negotiations are
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Join the Revolution, Join the Nerd Party on program
Welcome to the ned Paltea.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hi, this is Nick and Astasu, story editor on Star Wars,
the Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch. And you
are listening to Aggressive Negotiations.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Well, hello, and welcome to Aggressive Negotiations, the Star Wars
podcast that you just don't know how you could live without.
And I am just one of your hosts here, Matthew Rushing,
and we are coming at you from I believe level
thirteen thirteen here on Corussants. It is extremely filthy. They
do not have the cleaning droids down here and with
(00:46):
me as he is always the one and only Juedi
Master John Mills, and I'm sorry you're wearing your the
Real Twin Peaks T shirt?
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Is that?
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Like, I don't know what is that?
Speaker 4 (01:01):
John, Well, let's pull back the curtain. Let's shatter the
illusion of these personas that we've created the real Twin Peaks.
Matt is a festival that I went to celebrating Twin Peaks,
the TV show, the classic TV show that redefined television,
the Oldest Potawan and I flew out a few months
(01:22):
ago to experience Oh wait now, as at this recording,
it was a little more than a month Ago feels
like a lifetime ago. We went to the real town
North Bend, Washington where they filmed the show, and it's delightful.
I highly recommend it everybody. Of course, I highly recommend
the show. And if you really want to infuriate people,
(01:43):
watch the third season and then tell them you don't
hate it. Boy, you think it was you think it
was contentious to say you like the prequels. Oh boy,
just say you like season three of Twin Peaks. It'll
just absolutely infuriate people left and right.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yeah, there you go. It's kind of like, you know,
being a being a Star Trek fan and being like, yeah,
I think actually Enterprise might be one of the best series.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Well, now before we before we just get completely lost
in that other universe and show up with Ahsoka. You know,
make sure you find us wherever you get your podcasts
and give us a star rating review on places like
Apple Podcasts or even Spotify. Help people find the show,
and of course we would love it if you would
share the show with people on you know, something like
(02:29):
an Instagram or next Twitter over on next tour. You
can find the show at the Jedi Masters. In fact,
interact with us there. You know, John and I get
a little lonely, and we'd love to hear from you
about what you're thinking and what you're liking here in
Star Wars, what you're excited for. Maybe you're going to
Star Wars Celebration Japan. We would love to hear about that.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
So we would also love for you to maybe bring
a stickerback or something like that.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Yeah, you good old Jedi master friends over here. That's
pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
And of course you could find us on the entire network.
Was on Facebook at Facebook dot com, slash the nerd Party.
We're online at the nerd Party dot com, and so
check all of that out. You know, YadA, YadA, YadA.
We say it every time. But okay, so John, this
is the episode I think that when people think Star
(03:21):
Wars and or this is probably the episode that comes
to mind. And it's the phrase that galvanized just a
generation of people, right, which was one way out. And
so I think it's only fair that we actually start
(03:45):
this episode with the conversation is that they've finally had it,
They've had enough, you know, to quote what is it?
The film is it?
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (04:00):
I don't I can't remember. It's like it'll come to
me later and I'll hate myself, but you know, I'm
as mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Oh, network, you're thinking that, I was like, I couldn't.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Think of the word network. I don't know why. And so,
but that's that's what happens. And I'll just put it
in this way. The moment that really galvanizes the series
for me, uh is when kein Olloy looks at and
Or and basically just begins repeating all of the things
(04:32):
that and Or has been saying to him for the
past few weeks and then finds his own voice as
he's extructing all of these uh, you know, workers on
what to do. And it's just this incredibly powerful moment
(04:54):
because it's in that moment I think in a lot
of ways, a piece of whom Is as the leader
locks into place because it's that galvanizing moment where he
realizes that the words that he has said has had
an impact on a person to the point to which
not only are they repeating them, but then they're they're
(05:18):
owning them, and then they're utilizing their own words to
add to that to continue that movement. And I found
that to be just you know, it's it's one of
the things I think that the writing, it's just so
well done in that moment, because everything has been building
to this really well.
Speaker 4 (05:39):
I think that sure. I mean, you can absolutely call
out the writing. It is strong writing for this episode.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
I agree with you.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
This is a high water mark episode for people. People
remember this one. People know this one well.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Not just because they literally jump into some high water,
but you.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Know, right, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
But the uh, the fact of the matter is that
the direction, and I think it's Toby Haynes directs this one,
and the direction is what makes that scene really work
super well. You I mean, the talent behind the camera
with this series is what makes it truck along as
well as it does. This is additionally, I mean, I
(06:23):
want to build on what you're saying here, because like,
I have a lot more fun with and or talking
about these sorts of things. But I think that one
of the more interesting things is that when they get
into the room.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
It's like the reveal in the Wizard of Oz.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
It's just these three pasty dudes sitting at control consoles
who are living with them but abstracted from them, and
they're just saying Okay, it's time to say on program,
stand back, we'll do these things. Just say that stuff,
and all of those sorts of things. So even though
(07:02):
these people all live together, they're abstract to each other
until that exact moment, And in that exact moment, suddenly
the horror of the entire situation becomes real. And I
think that's really the thing to sort of look at
as well, is that how easy it is, hiding behind
(07:23):
a screen to abstract somebody, to make them the person
that needs to be controlled, or the person that's the enemy,
or to even transmit a message designed to break their spirit.
Because all they hear when that guy talks into the
microphone is all in program, you know, like it sounds
(07:46):
like this big, ominous voice, and it's just it's some
dude that looks like he'd lose a slap fight with
one of my kids.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
You know, it's you sort of see it.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
You're like, wait, this is what I've been afraid of
this whole time, you know, like it It really I
think speaks to that idea that the machine is powered
not only by terrible people, but people who are once again,
just doing their job. We've seen the shore trooper that
arrests and Or, and he's obviously some dude on a
power trip who's behind a mask, and so he's abstracted
(08:21):
the world and abstracted himself. He could do whatever he
wants to because he's behind the mask. And these guys
are behind a screen, and so they don't think about
the consequences of their action. And so I think there's
this running theme of abstraction and how it allows us
to dehumanize those around us because they're not people when
(08:43):
we don't encounter them.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's an excellent point, and
a big part of that I think also plays into
you know, seeing those guys in those scenes as they're
being surprised at what's happening it, you know, you immediately
are called back to when and Or was like they're
(09:05):
scared and power. People in true power aren't scared and
and And I think that's what's kind of so fascinating
about that, is that what we're dealing with here is
this like microcosm of something that's going to continue to spread,
right and and and that the fear then is like
(09:26):
something you even see in Star Wars, where you know,
the guy comes up to tark and he's like, we
we've analyzed their tech pattern and there is actually a chance, right,
And he's like, do you want to get on your
shuttle basically and get out of here? And Tarkan's like,
at a moment of triumph, But there's a fear there,
there is, and that's that same fear that we kind
(09:47):
of see in these guys as they all realize, oh,
we are as out of luck here. We are up
a creek without a paddle, and there's no way because,
as and Or has been telling Keino, they don't have
the men and they know it, and so the only
control they have over us is fear. But their fear
(10:08):
is and it's that you know, meme, you see of
the few task masters and the people rise up and
they've got nothing, And that's exactly what, you know, we
get in this episode. And I love you calling that
out because.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
There is a.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Real human element to this that does kind of put
a face to some of these people in the Empire,
and that does make the morality of all of this
just feel more weighty than when and it's one of
the reasons obviously George even talked about it. He puts,
(10:47):
you know, stormtroopers with the helmet on. They're all kind
of the same size, so you can't see their faces.
They become this faceless enemy and there's a reason for that,
you know. And yet you know, you're also reminded in
(11:07):
some sense that the game that the Empire is playing
at this point of keeping these guys in when they
talk about, oh, they're making up our sentences, you know,
they're that we're never getting out of here. I mean,
they're just literally in a concentration camp where they're being
well fed, but they're being well fed because they're doing
(11:28):
a job and they don't care if you die, They'll
just bring in more guys to replace you. And you know, right,
and that is just I mean, they're complex, yes.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
Yeah, and that's that's you know, I know, we we
talked about that last time, but that it really is
one of those things where you have to wonder the
evil that is being perpetrated here. We have the abstraction,
we have the evil, We have these things, and it's
one of those things where I think a line that
people blow past sometimes as well is somebody saying, during
(12:03):
this whole thing, people don't know what's happening here.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
So we have that other layer of abstraction.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
It's just like people buying stuff on Timu don't think
about where it's made. They don't care. All it is
is a picture on a screen and that's what I'm buying.
I don't have to think about it. Yeah, And I
think that in addition to that, this is and I
said this before this arc and specific when I'm talking
(12:33):
about my previous issues with the series and the way
that it is, you know, distributing storyline and pace and
tone and all those sorts of things.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
This is the arc.
Speaker 4 (12:45):
This is what makes everybody fall in love with this series,
regardless of the other issues that they have. This arc,
this Narkina five arc and specific and it ends so well,
specifically because of the moment with ken O looy when
he freezes and he says I can't swim, and the
(13:07):
added tragedy of it because you see and or freeze
for a second and he's about to go get him
when the surge of people pushes him over.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Yeah, and I'm left.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
This is what I think is so brilliant about this episode.
I'm left wondering what happened to ken O Loi. Yeah,
they came back in. They took control of that prison again.
Was he simply put back in, was he summarily executed?
Was he able to be a stainless steel rat and
escape into it and never get caught? And that would
(13:40):
be a very interesting series for me to you know, hey,
ancillary books, animation, whatever you want to do, tell a
story of Keno lay or somebody like Keno Looi who
gets into the ducts and he's he's the thing that
goes bump and skinners in the night. It's not rats,
it's Keno Loi and he's in the ducts and he's
trying to get people to move around again and try
(14:04):
to get the insurrection going again. And I think that
would be a super interesting thing because that is I
think that was the perfect way to resolve him, is
to leave that question because it's resolved enough that we
(14:24):
can talk about it. What happened to him. If they
had killed him, we would have been unhappy if he
had hit the water and drowned. We would have been
unhappy if he had gone back in because he was
too afraid. We would have been unhappy if and Or
had rescued him. Now we've suddenly got another character that's
vying for protagonist time. And additionally, Jock my memory was
(14:48):
Cyril in this episode? I don't think he was?
Speaker 3 (14:50):
Was he?
Speaker 2 (14:51):
No?
Speaker 1 (14:51):
It wasn't. It was great.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
Interesting, it's interesting how good this episode was.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
And yeah, there was no Cyril in it, was there?
Speaker 1 (15:00):
So I again, I mean we have to talk about
just you know, Andy Serkis is a revelation in this episode,
and he truly shows what an incredible actor he is
in all of these scenes. But that moment where and
we'll talk about it a second, because the music also
plays a huge part in that scene as well, like
(15:23):
moving you, but there's almost like a giddy, weird joy
and he's like, I can't swim.
Speaker 5 (15:30):
I can't swim, like to realize, like I got this far,
I'm out, I'm free, but yeah I can't swim, so
but at least I'll die free. And there's just something
so human about that moment where it's like I just
have to laugh at the cruel irony that sometimes life is.
(15:53):
And he plays that to perfection in the way he
delivers the the look on his face and then they
combine the music that has been swelling this whole time,
and you know, Star Wars is so known for the
way in which music completes what's happening on screen, and
(16:15):
everything is working gangbusters in that moment to sell this
emotional release that you've had. Now in this third episode
where we've been watching you know him be locked up,
it's just oh my gosh. You know, I'm gushing, but
(16:36):
it really is it. It is legitimately one of the
best things that Star Wars has ever done because of
the way in which it really truly works together.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
It does work really well together.
Speaker 4 (16:50):
But I think even this is one of those episodes
where I would call it out because it works even
if you haven't seen anything beforehand.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Greed agreed.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
This is very unique that you can have something that
is part of such a larger arc. But I could
just show this episode as a standalone to somebody and
they could still recognize, Oh, this is just really good.
I get everything. I get what's happened. Although the one
the one thing with that ties into the other bit
of performance that we would all heat praise upon, and
(17:24):
that is with with our good old friend Scarsguard, who
delivers a monologue that's beautiful because you really feel as
you know, I'll.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
Address it as a longtime fan.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
Saugerera is not capable of delivering this monologue because he
has no regret about the path that he's chosen. He's
embraced it. He's more like he's more like Vader. This
is who I am, this is what I'm sticking with,
and it will take a whole lot to change his heart.
Whereas you see, the real tragedy here is that we
(18:05):
have a character who's on quote unquote our side, but
lives every day with the knowledge, as he says, that
he has to use the tactics.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Of his own enemy. But he's so.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
All in at this point. The only thing he can
do is ride that all the way to the end.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
This is it.
Speaker 4 (18:24):
This is the only ticket he has, and it's the
only one he's going to cash in. And I think
that's that monologue is beautiful, And I think that the
one regret I would have is that it's nested in
this episode, which is so terrific with Andy Serkis and
(18:45):
Diego Luna, and it's like it's everything vying for attention
to another one of those things where I know they
couldn't put it anywhere else. There's no magic wand for
this this is the best place it could be, probably,
but it breaks my heart because it feels like this
deserved more time for me to soak in it, like
(19:08):
an extra beat or two afterward in action, as opposed
to having this wonderful moment and then saying, Okay, sorry,
we gotta gotta kind of wrap things up now, you know.
And it's like, ah that that sort of thing stings
to an extent because it is so good and it
gets so overshadowed by the fact that there are so
many other great performances in the episode, So it's like
(19:32):
an embarrassment of Rich's thing.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
No, I mean it's I mean that speech. And one
I think is so interesting is you know, this speech
is really Luthen explaining the cost of the rebellion on
(19:57):
so many that will go under noticed and unnamed and
uh and and in some ways, I think that's kind
of what makes this this story with and Or so
interesting because he also himself in some ways is unnoticed
(20:19):
and unnamed, you know, because you know, when we think
about it historically, you know that this is not These
aren't characters that we hear their names uh in the
original trilogy. And yes, I know I know the reason, right,
but I think that this actually goes to just prove
that point of yes, they are going to be people
(20:41):
who did things in the background that that nobody else
could do or would do, and yet without them we
wouldn't be where we are today. And there and then
the way that Scars Guard just delivers those lines, I
mean it, it's incredibly heartbreaking. And when he just finally
(21:05):
gets to the point where he says everything, I've given everything,
it's powerful.
Speaker 4 (21:13):
Well, you know, I think also the thing that is
interesting because okay, I'll have two separate points here, One
is your point about in the original six movies, we
don't have these and door moments where we see, oh,
the people who sacrificed everything and lost it all in
(21:33):
their identity and everything. We see Luke Skywalker, we see
the big hits, We see Obi Wan and Anakin and
Padme and Lea. We see these characters having their moment.
We don't see them having the long dark night of
the soul in the same way that these characters do.
That's true, and that's what I'm going to double back
(21:54):
to because going from that, you ask the average person
and unless they're a history buff, they don't know who
Francis Marion is in the American Revolution. The Swamp Fox
is a bit of a mystery because he's not George Washington,
he's not Thomas Jefferson, he's not Ben Franklin. But Francis
(22:18):
Marion was incredibly key to the you know, to the
American Revolution. He was very important. They kind of made
a movie about him called The Patriot where it was
kind of him but whatever.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
But it's still not a car.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
He's like, you know, he's like an andor where it's
like it it really needed him to work. But we
talk about the larger names in the thing, and the
thing that I would come back around to is by
opening it up and showing these characters. Do you think
(22:57):
because this is a this is a This is something
people have been talking about since Rogue one first came out,
and some of the post Rogue one materials have leaned
into this, especially in writing. I think I think Alphabet
Squadron had a character say something to this effect. Where
does it take anything away from Luke in The Rebellion,
(23:22):
or Leah or Han, Orlando or you know the characters
we know from the films. Does it take anything away
from them to have these stories show such a gritty, dark,
sacrificial aspect to them.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
No, I don't think so. And I think a part
of that is and Luthen actually says that right when
he's making this speech, He's like, stands before me is
the hero and we need the heroes. And so the
role that Luke and Leah Han even mon Mathma will
(24:00):
play right is to be the people that people see
as kind of the hero is important and you need
those because there's they're inspirational, right that there there is
there's just something about that. I mean, we need that.
And so No, I think what this just does. It
(24:20):
just adds depth, right, It doesn't take anything away. I
think it just adds depth. And of course, you know, again,
Gilroy's whole point in this was to say I wanted
to take Star Wars as seriously as anybody had ever
taken it, and I think he does that in this show.
But in doing that, I just don't I don't think
(24:43):
that it it does take anything away from any of
the other characters. I think it just really Yeah, I
think the same thing that we've talked about with any
expanded universe novel. What you want that thing to do
(25:04):
is to enhance the thing that I then watch later
on or you know, and I think and or then
just enhances my enjoyment and my understanding of everything around it.
And so no, I don't. I don't feel that. Do
you think about it or feel that at all?
Speaker 3 (25:25):
No, I don't think that way. Primarily I.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
I don't personally think that way because I think that
it this is just a different story. This is you
know this so meanwhile over here, And I guess maybe
when you grow up a comic book fan, you're used
to this sort of thing where they were constantly doing meanwhile,
you know that sort of thing. I think that there
(25:53):
is a frustration I have is when I see it
creep into other materials, Like it irked me when I
saw in one of the books where somebody was talking about, oh, yeah, well,
Luke Skywalker wouldn't have been anything without jin Urso, And
I'm like, why can't they both just be heroes?
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Guys?
Speaker 4 (26:13):
Why do you have to take away from what person
A did because of what person B did. Why don't
you just say person A and B both did great things,
as opposed to trying to say one is greater than
you know one.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Is greater exactly.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
That's the type of stuff that that I have seen
that gets under my skin.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
Yeah, but that's.
Speaker 4 (26:35):
That's something that so long as it's not like quote
unquote official materials, I don't really paint it any mind.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Yeah, it's probably in a book that only like five
people read anyway.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
So probably probably, but the same thing.
Speaker 5 (26:49):
But I.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
Throw as much shade as you want to. It's it's
it's an irritating thing to me because again it demonstrates
a limited point of view, as obi Wan might say.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
Yeah, but.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
I have to ask, is there anything that you see
as a failing in the episode? Is there anything where
it falls short?
Speaker 1 (27:16):
So I think, okay, just no, there there isn't And
a big part of that is because I think you
mentioned one, there's no serial in this episode, so we're
not shoving things into the episode that doesn't need to
be there. And the thing that the things that are
there are accentuating the a story of them escaping, which
(27:42):
is all the hard decisions they're having to make to
make this happen. So what are we seeing. We're seeing
mon Mathma have to make these terrible decisions for the
things she knows she needs the most for the greater good,
getting herself you know, into bed with this, you know
Davos character figuratively speaking figuratively speaking, yes, very figuratively. And
(28:07):
yet what does he want in return? He doesn't want
money because he doesn't care about money. He wants to
utilize her for prestige. And then he also wants to
to connect their families, you know, via the possibility of marriage,
which we've already seen, and we get a taste even
(28:30):
more in this episode about the fact that Chandrillin marriages
are marriages of more convenience and more of you know,
political ramifications than they really are love. And so therefore
(28:51):
that's what he's basically asking for for his son and
her daughter, which you know I find to be again,
will she compromise her values and beliefs to have happen
what she knows needs to happen? And again, like her
(29:13):
performance is great there, the guy who's playing Davos is
just so wickedly despicable.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
Can I just say what I love about the fact
that they named him Davos is because of Davos, Switzerland,
where all those super wealthy people show up at least
like once a year, where and they talk about how
they're going to shape the fate of the world. I'm like,
that is some slick character naming like that is just
absolutely like I'm like, I stand up and I salute
(29:44):
that because I'm like, man, I see what you did.
I love you for that is that is some top
not sneaking in commentary right there.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Yeah. I couldn't agree more. And so no, I mean
there for me, this is this is the episode which
is just like you know, it's it's kind of the
pinnacle of the season so far, where it's just everything
is working on all cylinders and the editing of the
(30:16):
storylines is perfection. And I think it also, I mean,
even the little bit we get with the empire and
stuff all again, it's all playing in to every other
part of the story. It's so it just kind of
goes to the show something that we've batted around a
little bit. It's like, did we need the serial character
(30:39):
in this the way that he is portrayed and or
just even just the way he is? But no, I mean,
this episode is is awesome. Where do you land on
this one? And was there anything that I know you're
more of a stickler for editing and that kind of stuff,
So was there anything that you felt like could have
been excised or done differently.
Speaker 4 (30:58):
Or honestly, no, I think that this is I will
go ahead and hang perfect episode metal around this episode.
I can honestly say that the first time I went
through this series, I was touch and go. Until Narkina five.
(31:19):
I was kind of like, Eh, you know, it's good,
but it's not you know, it's not light me on fire.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
I really don't like this serial guy.
Speaker 4 (31:26):
And I'm going along and that it hits this episode
and this is the one where I was like, okay, fine,
I'm riding it out till the end because this is magnificent.
I think in retrospect we're going to look back and
realize that this is a little bit more classical structure
in the sense that this is the climax of the
(31:47):
story and the rest is as the French might say,
denu mont, where it's just that it's the falling action
from here on out. This is the climax for me
of this season because this is this is where everything
gets set. Everything from this point forward is wrap up
(32:07):
and am I right? Am I wrong? I'll find out
on this rewatch. But that's my impression of it is
like this episode does if This is the climax of everything.
It hits every mark that it needs, and it is
as a result, in the context of the series.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
This is a perfect episode. Wouldn't touch a darn thing this.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
Yeah, this is a five out of five, Like you know,
this is this is everything that you wanted from from
the season and it's it's incredibly well done. And rewatching it,
you know, I was. I was just as moved watching
(32:51):
it this time as I was the first time I
watched it. And I think that is the hallmark of
a good Star Wars episode is when you can watch
the episode and every single emotion that they are wanting
you to feel, you feel again that I put this
(33:16):
in the same category as the way I feel about
like watching and then rewatching the finale to the Clone
Wars those four episodes. You know, that's the kind of
feeling I get when I watch this.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
I love that for you, I don't.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
I'm going to preface it and say, well, I consider
this a perfect episode in this context. I don't know
that emotionally, I get to the same point as what
you're describing, because that final arc of the Clone Wars
devastated me in a different way that left a little
bit more of a there's a little bit more of
a mark left at the end of that one, which
(33:58):
tied into a lot of other things. But I I
respect what you're saying there, and.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Yeah, no, and I I think I get why. I
I definitely get why I think you feel the way
that you do. And I think what I am not.
Let me put it this way. I am not saying
that I necessarily think that they're on the same level
(34:32):
in their importance to me. M okay, I'm saying they
are on the same level in the sense that the
motions that the creators want me to feel in these
moments I see is just the same for me. And so, yeah,
what you said made me want to clarify that, because yeah,
(34:53):
that that is not Ah.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
Well, that's good because I I was about.
Speaker 4 (35:00):
To be like zod in Man of Steel goersy, you know,
so you know, at least sort of. Yeah, So yeah,
that's an important clarification.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Yeah, yes, No, I'm glad you asked the you know,
you said what you said, because it definitely I don't
want people to kind of come away with this being like,
oh wow, can I trust Matt's opinion at all anymore?
Speaker 3 (35:22):
You can't. You can't. This is this is an emergency
message I've taken over the prison.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
I'm telling you right now you can't anyway. Yeah, man,
I one of the things that I think I'm really
loving about, you know, I'm loving about this is just
us being like, once we kind of got back to
some of the pulled back from some of the kind
(35:48):
of frustrating things that you had about the show. I've
just really been enjoying the way in which this We've
been able to have some great discus Russians about about
the show, and it's been a lot of fun. So
but but John, you know, if people do want to
(36:12):
catch up with you and talk to you about the
things that you've got going on in your life, or
you know, maybe maybe they just want to You're like,
you know what, I want to know what John thinks
about this? In Star Wars? Where can people find you?
Speaker 4 (36:27):
I don't even want to know what I think about
in Star Wars. But I appreciate everybody humoring me and
letting me talk every so often into the microphone.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
Here.
Speaker 4 (36:34):
You can reach me at the user named kessel Junkie.
When I am active on social media, which is not
often right now, but when I am, that's where you
can find me. And you can find me right here
on the network, co hosting a show called house Lights,
a film director podcast where we it's basically an excuse
for us to watch movies and talk about it. It's
(36:55):
a Tristan Radell and Darren Moser co host it with me,
and it's basically just us sitting around talking and having
fun about movies.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
So you know, give it a shot.
Speaker 4 (37:05):
But I do also fill some of my spare time
over on the six oh two Club over on the
TFM network, which everybody should love, and I think, Matt,
that's one of the places where they can find you
online as well.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Absolutely, you can find me at six oh two Club
talking about all those franchises that we love outside of
Star Trek, and then on the TFF network you'll find
me with a lot of Star Trek talk, and I
hope you'll check all those shows out Here on the
Nerd Party Network, you'll find me on a show called
owl Post where Dreya Kaufman and I talked about every
(37:39):
single chapter of Harry Potter series, one chapter at a time.
And last but not least, you can find me over
on social media under the name Matt Rushing Zone too,
So if I'm on that platform, that'll be the name
that I'm under. But you know, John, I hear the
chimes of meditation there at the Temple, and you know,
(37:59):
after the stress of this episode, I think I could
use some meditation in the room of a thousand fountains.
So I think it's time we close these negotiations.
Speaker 4 (38:08):
And I'll just be jumping around in the fountains being
a scamp master.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
Rushing Negotiations are
Speaker 2 (38:21):
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