Issue 399: Tales of the Underworld

Tales of the Underworld.

This May the Fourth the Force was strong as Disney+ debuted the latest Star Wars animation anthology, Tales of the Underworld which focused on two fan favorite characters, Asajj Ventress and Cad Bane. To celebrate, Matt and John crossover with The 602 Club to discuss the series!

Host
John Mills and Matthew Rushing

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the ned Palty.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
Hi, this is Nick and Astasu, story editor on Star Wars,
the Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch, and you
are listening to aggressive negotiations.

Speaker 1 (00:36):
Hello, and welcome to aggressive negotiations coming at you live
from a very special venue this week, the six oh
two Club, as we are crossing over because we have
a brand new Star Wars show to watch, and no
it's not and or we will be talking about that
in a few weeks, but we are going to be

(00:56):
discussing the brand new and animated series, the short mini
series as they've been doing Tales of the Underworld, and
of course with me as he is for every single
Star Wars episode in the six o two Club, and
of course my esteemed co host and fellow Jedi Master

(01:22):
John Mills.

Speaker 3 (01:23):
Hello, Hello, Hello everybody, and hello Matt. I am tickled
that we get to discuss a new animated property, as
we both know, as I think everybody knows, the let's
be honest, the premiere storytelling of Star Wars has been
happening in animation and I'm looking forward to diving into

(01:44):
this and seeing you know what marks they hit and
where the conversation goes with what they explore.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yes, yes, I'm so looking forward to this. I love
when the animated stuff comes out, and I'm gonna throw
you a curveball before we get into the actual conversation,
but before we do any of that. Of course, with
the crossover, there are so many different places that you
can find us. So whichever feed you're listening to this in,

(02:15):
go to that podcast app of your choice and give
us a star rating and review. And even if you're
not on an app that allows you to do that,
go over to Apple Podcasts and give us a star
rating review. It's been a long time since either The
six oh two Club or Aggressive Negotiations have had reviews,
and we really appreciate that. Also, please share this show

(02:39):
with your friends, and I am with people on social media,
so you can find us on social media at the
Jedi Masters or at the six oh two Club. You
can also find us both networks online at the nerd
Party online the nerd Party dot com. You can also
find the six h two.

Speaker 4 (02:58):
Club with.

Speaker 1 (03:01):
Online. We're both on a Facebook of course, Facebook at
Facebook dot com slash the Nerd Party or Facebook at
Facebook dot com slash track FM. We also have a
listener's only discussion group you can find for track FM
called the Babel Conference. You can join and talk to
listeners from all over the world, so lots of different
places that you could interact with us. John, and I

(03:22):
would love to hear you. Yes, I remember, we actually
do have an email there from aggressive negotiations, and I
promise we will get to that. It just you know,
we've had so much going on with new shows and everything,
and we have a big anniversary actually coming up for
our next show as we hit four hundred episodes, so

(03:43):
we've got a very special show.

Speaker 4 (03:45):
For you there.

Speaker 1 (03:46):
But John, the one thing that I wanted to ask you,
because you mentioned as we were going to get started
that you really like the animated material, and everybody knows
who listens to us, I as well do and of
course one of our good friends works on all of
this animated material. But we did get a wonderful surprise

(04:09):
at Star Wars celebration that mall shadow Lord is going
to be the next animated series. As we watch his
meteoric rise before the fall we see when you know,
we find him in Rebels. So I just had to
ask you, how are you feeling about the fact that

(04:31):
one we've got more animated material coming out, and two
we're going to fill in that story there for Darth Maul,
and three some of the people that we might actually
be able to run into with that story.

Speaker 3 (04:45):
Honestly, just hearing an announcement of another animated series is
enough to fill me with joy, because I listen when
the announcement was being made, I was at work and
somebody shared a screen cap. I wasn't able to, like,
you know, keep up with the feed or anything like that,
and somebody just shared a screencap saying, Hey, this show
is coming. And my reaction was, this is now officially

(05:06):
the show I'm looking forward to most. It's actually probably
I know, brand me a heretic for it, but I'm
looking forward to it more than any of the movies
they've announced or any of the other projects that they have.

Speaker 4 (05:19):
Going like.

Speaker 3 (05:22):
Pound for pound, my love my reception of my however
you want to quantify it. When I encounter knew animated
material from Star Wars right now, I encounter it with
the same amount of glee as that kid who was
reading the Marvel Star Wars comics written by Archie Goodwin

(05:44):
back in the nineteen eighties. And actually that's a reference
not to mister Goodwin, but I will be bringing back
as we talk about Tales of the Underworld. But I mean, Matt,
I know you were super excited about Mall. Like we're
hitting more Mall. I mean like he's like he's a cockroach.
We've seen everything except the moment he was born at

(06:05):
this point, and I don't know if I want to
see that, but like it's it's pretty wild, man, it's
pretty wild. Like I'm I'm presuming you're excited about it too.

Speaker 1 (06:15):
Oh, I mean absolutely one. Because this character that that
as we mentioned, we both really love, and of course,
I think, you know, we both really responded to everything
that they've done with the character since bringing him back,
and you know, the animated show really being the forefront

(06:36):
of that happening, and I'm so excited that, of course
that we're going to be exploring that more. You know,
I think what makes me so excited about this in
the part that I kind of alluded to, is that
I think that this really gives us an opportunity to
be able to focus on that storyline that I think

(07:00):
got basically abandoned when they didn't do anything else with solo, right,
And that is the stuff that I'm really excited to
see because I do expect us to kind of see
that character of Kira at some point in one of
the seasons of this show. There would I can't imagine

(07:21):
them not to have her appear, because she's actually a
part of that story right in that time period. And so,
but the other thing that makes me very excited about
this is is that, you know, all of the chatter
around this show as well, is that they are kind

(07:42):
of utilizing some ideas that George had for the sequels
in this which I find to be fascinated.

Speaker 3 (07:50):
Couldn't make me happier, couldn't And well, yeah, well I
agree with you, Hey, it would be great to see
you know, Kira or any other character that I think.
Speak from my perspective, the level of trust that I
have with the people making animation at Star Wars is
it's the one project where I don't find myself game

(08:11):
playing like, oh what if this character shows up and
that character shows up. It's it's a level of trust
that I have where I'm like, whatever I get, yeah,
is yeah, probably going to be better than what I
could have thought of. So I'm not not even not
even you know, this is the team that gave us
the Clone Wars, the Bad Batch, the Tales of series, Like,

(08:32):
you know, come on now, like how much are you
how you know, how much more do they need to
prove themselves? Like it's seriously for me, they're blank check territory.
If they told me they were coming out with a
show about Suballba's childhood, I'd be like, all right, that
sounds good. Yeah, I'm fine.

Speaker 1 (08:49):
I mean I would much rather be Kitster, you know,
and and his extence.

Speaker 4 (08:55):
You know what it's throwing out for Kitster?

Speaker 1 (08:57):
Just can can we just do tail the Tales of Kitster?

Speaker 4 (09:01):
You know, you know, listen, don't tempt me.

Speaker 3 (09:04):
That's something where you could explore, right, because he stays
with Shmi and then let's say something tragic happens with
Kitster after SMI gets purchased by Owen Lars, which is
not Owen sorry by Cleague Lars, because that's a really
weird way to find a wife, I guess, but you know,
like it's really you know, but that's what I'm saying

(09:26):
is like if the animation team said we're gonna do
Tales of Kitster, it's all right, cool, Sure, I'm gaming,
you're like soul yep.

Speaker 4 (09:33):
Yeah, done and done.

Speaker 1 (09:34):
No, I'm right there with you and so very excited
to see this show and we will be on the
edge of our seats honestly waiting to talk about it.
So but let's get to Tales of the Underworld. You know,
this one involves two different arcs, three episodes each, and
the first arc that we have is about as Sage Ventris,

(09:56):
who we had show up there in the Bad Batch yep.
And of course the question on everybody's mind was how
did she come back? Because you know, for all that
we knew the wonderful book by Christy Golden, which we

(10:16):
both covered and read and very much enjoyed, based off
of Unaired Clone War's arc, she died in a mission
with the Jedi and of course had fallen in love
with Quinlan Voss he had fallen in love with her,
and again, an excellent book, so if you haven't read it,

(10:38):
I highly encourage anybody to go read it. But the
question became like, oh my gosh, you know, are are
they over writing that canon? And one of the things
that I think it was Brad Row, who was the
supervising director there of the of the Bad Batch said,
you know, we're not overwriting that, but it's just not

(11:01):
our place to tell this story here in the Bad Batch,
that's not what we're going to tell that story. So
in the first episode here of the Assage Ventris arc
called a Way Forward, we actually start with the answer
to that question. So not only do we solidify the

(11:21):
canon of that book, which, as we've seen sometimes you know,
the animated series, right, they can kind of override books
that we've had, whether I mean Tales of the Jedi
in some ways, kind of overwrites the whole Ahsoka book
in many ways. And so here though, that doesn't happen.

(11:43):
And so I just wanted to ask you. We literally
start with Assage having died and being brought back to
Dathamir by Quinlan Voss and Obi Wan Kenobi. And so
what did you think of the way in which we

(12:03):
bring this character back to life?

Speaker 4 (12:06):
Oh, it's completely fitting.

Speaker 3 (12:10):
Again, animation doesn't shy away from the mysticism of Star Wars.
It doesn't try to explain it away or anything. It's
like the Night Sisters. Yeah, okay, this totally fits that.
You know that this pool and reviving her and all
that sort of you know, and even the dialogue with
the Spirit of Mother talsand and stuff like that, Like,
all of that works, All of that fits, and it's

(12:32):
a great reminder of again, a faction of Force users
who are neither Jedi nor Sith and they're you know,
they're they're just people who did their.

Speaker 4 (12:44):
Thing sort of stuff. And I really I liked it.
I liked that it came back.

Speaker 3 (12:51):
But what I really noticed from the very first frame
was we have another evolution in the animation. The way
that the characters moved, the way that the light was
smoothed out on the forms, the way that the curves,
you know, it was still the angular that we're used to,

(13:13):
but the curves were a little bit softer. The lighting
was very.

Speaker 4 (13:20):
Stunning.

Speaker 3 (13:21):
And that scene where quinnlan Voss lays her in the pool,
I swear it looks like a real body being put
in water, Like it just absolutely was stunning. What like
I And just that very beginning part is like, oh,
oh my gosh, wow, this is great.

Speaker 4 (13:38):
What a declaration right here.

Speaker 3 (13:40):
But yeah, in terms of how they bring her back,
I think it works perfectly well.

Speaker 4 (13:43):
Spot on.

Speaker 1 (13:45):
Yeah, I think one of the things you mentioned there
was just the kind of look and feel of the
show and even that opening scene of pushing in on
the cave there in Datamir and the lighting choice, like
you said, it is just stunning. I mean it it
looks like the type of thing that you would see

(14:08):
in the work of somebody like a Frasier, you know,
you think of Larry Fong's best work, you know, a
dp on at the top of their game, you know.
And so that was wonderful, uh, you know, the shot
choices of you know, the the tear drop hitting her hand,

(14:32):
you know, and all of that is just wonderful and
and and and what I thought was really cool about
you know, going back to Dath and Mir now in retrospective,
having seen the first season of Ahsoka, where we know
that the witches actually come from a galaxy far far

(14:53):
away from this one, right, uh. And and so that
there and yet on that same planet that they're from,
we see one of the Mortise god statues. So there's
this whole interesting aspect to that. And we've already seen
you know, those gods be able to bring somebody back

(15:15):
to life in Ahsoka, right, And so the fact that
we've seen that we've also seen Darth Maul basically you know,
given legs, you know, had great legs created out of
magic and taking away his madness. And you know, it's
no surprise to me that massage of Interests could come

(15:38):
back this way. What I thought was really beautiful was
basically the Faustian type of deal though, that she has
to make in that, which is that if she wants
to come back, she can't have what her heart desires most,
which is Quinlan Voss. And I found that that really

(15:59):
interest that then she makes that choice to come back
because it seems like in so many ways, after that
experience of Dark Disciple, that would be the thing that
would make life worth living for her in many ways.
And so then the think it feels like to me,

(16:21):
the rest of this series with her, the rest of
this episode and then the other two episodes are almost
about her finding a purpose for a life reborn.

Speaker 4 (16:35):
Yes, I think that.

Speaker 3 (16:40):
That moment when she makes the deal is specifically interesting
because much like Faster anybody else who makes that Devil's bargain,
they're always thinking, oh, well, i'll figure out how to
beat the devil. I'll figure it out later. I'll just
agree to it now and I'll figure it out. And

(17:00):
I think there's that layer to it where she's thinking, yeah,
I agree, sure, sure, sure, without my heart's desire whatever,
and in the back of her mind, without it being
explicitly stated. I think you can clearly tell she's like,
I'll worry about that when I worry about that when
I get there. And I think that she then has

(17:21):
the realization over time of they weren't kidding and so yes,
you know, to your point, I have to find another
reason to live. I think that there's you know this,
and this will come back when we you know, talk
about the.

Speaker 4 (17:40):
Cad Bane arc.

Speaker 3 (17:41):
But I think the beauty, one of the beauties of
this arc is that there is a lot of stuff unspoken.
There's a lot of stuff that is leaning into As
George Lucas as everyone loves to say, both lovingly and mockingly.
Film is a visual medium, and so there's a lot
that I think plays on Ventureance's face and reactions that

(18:07):
gives those cues, gives those hints to I'll agree to
this deal, but I'll figure a way through it. And
then when we meet her again, she's realized, oh, well,
I'm not going to be able to make the deal anymore,
or be able to beat the deal, I should say,

(18:27):
but I think that what's super interesting is that when
we do see her, when we see her move to
rescue a Jedi, it's a really interesting world building moment
because you see again the idea of how your fellow

(18:49):
citizen will sell you out in a heartbeat, and you
also see her change of heart. This is a character where,
let's say, this is even the first time you encounter her,
she's brought back to life by dark magic. She has
a tie to these dark siders. But when we see
her out in the world afterward, she's committing an act

(19:13):
of great compassion and charity. And you know, I think
that's beautiful. Like, you see a whole lot of growth
in the character just within a couple of minutes. With
the way they advance the story, I think that's beautiful.

Speaker 1 (19:30):
Yeah, I mean, I agree with you. I think that's
the one of the interesting parts about this, especially in
light of the book Dark Disciple, because you know, we
know that she died to give her life for Quinlan
Voss basically, and so she is not a verse to
doing that now, and yet her whole goal right now

(19:54):
at least is she comes back and she's on this
planet just working to curity for a shuttle service. She
wants a quiet life, which in some ways makes complete
sense after the life she had lived in the Clone Wars,
and you know what she had been put through with

(20:14):
Dooku as her master. And so I love that aspect
there of where she doesn't really even question the moment
she realizes that he's a Jedi and they open the
door and there's all of these stormtroopers out there, she
immediately shuts the door and and just goes into action

(20:39):
in some ways the same way that any other actual
Jedi would do, right, And so's it's a wonderful moment
of allowing us to kind of, I think, get a
real picture of who this character has become in her rebirth.
And yet at the same time, she's still very venturous

(21:02):
about the whole thing, right, you know, she's still pretending
in some ways and maybe not completely pretending to just
to be put upon, you know that, oh my gosh,
I got to take care of somebody else, and will
you just shut up? And you know what I love
about that is that even though she's a character who
has kind of moved past the life of complete selfishness

(21:25):
and has moved more towards the life of selflessness. She's
not happy about it, right, Like it's not it's not
like her her favorite thing. She's not obi wan kenobi
about it. And and I really appreciate that that we
don't actually lose all she is as a character. But

(21:46):
there has been that monumental shift of who she is
as a character, which is when she sees somebody in need,
she can't help herself now. And I kind of love at.

Speaker 4 (22:02):
Yeah. I think that.

Speaker 3 (22:05):
The the neatest part though of of this, you know
her our first encounter with her, I mean, not the
neatest like it. But it's another neat part is I
realized something suddenly with the inquisitors. Uh when it comes
to this is with ah Soca and now with Venturess

(22:29):
and with others. The inquisitors against actual seasoned force users
are nothing like. It adds a whole layer to venturous dispatching.
The inquisitor shows what it's shown.

Speaker 1 (22:50):
I mean, she does get her button handed, but if
he hadn't been there, but.

Speaker 3 (22:57):
What But what I'm what I'm saying is that these inquisitors,
Vader doesn't fail at this mission. Oh right, absolutely, you
know somebody who's a true you know, you know, disciple
of the dark Side sort of thing. You suddenly realize

(23:18):
how the Inquisitors really are just cannon fodder where it's like, okay,
they'll go get them, and then it's Vader shows up
when it's it plays into Rebels if anything, where it's like, okay,
Vader shows up. Why because the Grand Inquisitor couldn't get
the job done. Even he couldn't get that job done.
All right, fine, I'll show up and I'll do it.

Speaker 4 (23:38):
But there's a.

Speaker 3 (23:41):
There's a beauty to that as well, seeing her fight
against somebody that is, you know, ostensibly would have been
on her side sort of thing. I think that's beautiful
and I think it actually probably the most beautiful shot
in the first episode, you know, when when they're when

(24:03):
they're running and they get to that docking bay, is
that it's that far shot where the Inquisitors on screen
right and she's on screen left and they've got their
their sabers lit. It's so evocative of the shot when
mal and Obi Wan are about to face each other

(24:25):
uh In in that episode of Rebels. I know, I
keep sort of like rambling about this stuff.

Speaker 4 (24:30):
But it's like.

Speaker 3 (24:32):
Venturos now is a character that we have seen pretty
much every stage of her life, and it's pretty interesting
to see her growth. She really is and we've talked
about this, you know, in other conversations, but she really
is this dark mirror of Ahsoka, and it's like it's

(24:53):
one of those things where it's it's such a beautiful
thing to know that we've seen so much of their
arcs and we see how they are both let down
by the people who they trusted most and that, but
then they both go off and essentially become Ronan. Yeah,
in two different ways. Uh yeah, I just think it's

(25:15):
really fascinating.

Speaker 1 (25:17):
Yeah, I mean, and I think the the other really
interesting part of that that I really like is the
way in which ah Sosca and Venturs kind of slowly
moving kind of closer and closer together as in who
they are, right, there's still very much themselves, but there

(25:39):
there is a sense where that's kind of happening, which
is is interesting and and and in fact too, you know,
even kind of see with season one of Ahsoka, you know,
her being in a place where because of all of
her experiences, you know she is, and especially then her

(26:00):
experience with Sapeine, you know, she's much less sure of
herself than we had seen before, you know. And what's
interesting is is watching this story with Assage, where you know,
by the end of her arc, she seems to almost
be much more sure of herself than she is at
the beginning, And that's part of that work of rebirth,

(26:24):
which I think is really interesting and I love to
you know, one of the things we talk about many
times is that the way in which the animation helps
tie together all of Star Wars, right, it becomes kind
of the glue that really fits all the pieces together.
And this connects very well then with what we saw
in the Obi Wan series and the fact that there

(26:46):
is this Jedi path, right, and we saw Quentland Voss's
name on the wall in the Obi Wan Kenobi show,
and now we have that again, the fact that there
are there is this Jedi underground happening. And I liked
that connection, and I loved the way in which, you know,

(27:08):
that piece kind of drives Ventress even further into helping
Lego here at the beginning, and at the same time,
you know, she actually comes clean with him to say Hey,
I wasn't on your side. I was not a Jedi,

(27:28):
and I probably killed a lot of people you knew personally,
and that's an interesting choice as well. So I mean
this again, this first episode just has so much that's
kind of happening in it, and it's amazing that, you know,
it's like sixteen minutes long.

Speaker 4 (27:48):
I love that.

Speaker 3 (27:49):
When we bound into the second episode, and this is
where I'm going to heap praise. I made reference to
the Marvel comics before. What I find great about Ventresses
arc is pre Archie Goodwin. It was Howard Chaikin that
worked on the Marvel Star Wars comics.

Speaker 4 (28:07):
He worked on the adaptation, and then he uh.

Speaker 3 (28:12):
Oh Chakin was the artist who was the somebody. Somebody
out there as old as I am is flipping out
because I might have mixed up the names here anyway,
I'll look that up in a second. But the first
run of Star Wars comics post adaptation of the original film.
The highest praise I can give this venturous arc is

(28:34):
that is evocative of those adventures that I read as
a kid that were so wild and imaginative and strange
but still felt part of the universe. It's where we
you know, that arc I'm talking about is where we
first encountered Jackson the Big Green Rabbit who later came

(28:58):
back through you know, hipster call outs and resurrections in
the comics and everything like that. But like, you know,
this is this our captures so much of that Gopher broke,
Star Wars verve that was there in the late seventies

(29:19):
and early eighties when there were no rules. This feels
like there are no rules, even though we know there
are rules. You know, it's much more. There are many
more guidelines and stories for it to navigate in, but
it still has that same freshness to it that those
original stories did.

Speaker 1 (29:39):
Yeah, I mean the second part called friends. I really
enjoy the fact that we bring in Lats from the
bounty hunting arc that Ventures was a part of, and
realizing that we can kind of deal in some ways
with that relationship that she had previously, uh, and kind

(30:02):
of get the justtaposition of you know, who Ventures used
to be and who she is now with Lats, you know,
who hasn't changed at all. Uh, and of course Ventriss,
who has come very far from where she was previously.
And and so I love that and I just love
the the kind of inventiveness of setting this on a

(30:26):
mission to go pick up an Imperial star destroyer shield
relay from one of the Flecktor domes, and you're on
this planet where they're building all these new ships for
the Empire because we're still early enough where the Venitor
would still have been the main ship, and so they're

(30:51):
creating all these star destroyers, and so there's just to me,
that's the place that I really loved that. But it's
interesting the way in which we actually kind of shift
the focus in this episode. It's as much about Leko

(31:13):
and his decision do I trust ventures with what I
know about her or do I trust somebody else and
realizing that the world he's in now, trust is not
going to come easy. And I love that because it's

(31:34):
teaching him obviously an incredibly valuable lesson if he wants
to survive. But two again, it's driving home the thematic
element of who is Ventuss going to choose to be
in her new life and who she chooses to be,

(31:54):
especially even just by the end of this episode, is
somebody who is trustworthy to a person like Leko, which
I loved.

Speaker 3 (32:04):
Yeah, I yes, everything you're saying Also, as a side note,
I did look it up while you were talking. Howard
Chaikin was a co writer, but it was the main
driver on the writing for the first stretch was Roy
Thomas Chiken was the artist, but I was only partially confused.

(32:27):
But yeah, reuniting with with characters from that Clone Wars arc,
especially since I'm doing that Clone Wars rewatch with with
my well, I mean first time watch with one of
my daughters and you know rewatch for me obviously, seeing
those characters come back so soon after I had rewatched
that episode, that was a special delight for me because

(32:50):
I was like, oh, yeah, I just saw them. And
it speaks to your point, because that is something that
Star Wars keeps coming back to, is who's able to
change it who was not? And so having Venturess encounter
people who could not change is throws into stark relief
again how much she has, how much she's grown.

Speaker 1 (33:15):
Yeah, and it's interesting to me because this this moves
along the story. But this really is kind of the
middle episode to be the connective tissue of the entire thing,
because the true lessons and the really interesting kind of

(33:37):
dynamics of really kind of forcing Venturess to make the
decisions of one who is she going to be? Is
she going to try and break the a deal that
she made to come back to life by trying to
find Quinlan Voss and all of that come to a

(33:58):
head in One Warrior to Another when she actually runs
into somebody who not only knows who she used to be,
but basically revers her for who she used to be.
And so the choice then that she has to make
on whether to just trust what he has to say

(34:20):
or to trust this person she just met who's also
a Jedi, was an incredible juxtaposition there for the character
to be placed in the middle of. And what I
love about that is how quickly it allows the character

(34:41):
to be forced to make that decision. Okay, again, life
comes down to the choices we make, So who am
I going to choose to be in this situation? And
you know, it's one of those things where I think
they just do a really good job of doing that.
And the beauty that is using this kid right, you know,

(35:04):
out of the mouth of babes Lecho living the life
of the Jedi and and the true lessons of the
Jedi in such a wonderful way there reinforce. Then who

(35:25):
she is going to choose to be?

Speaker 3 (35:27):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I don't know how much I
can add to that except that just the beauty of
one the title of the episode being one warrior to another,
somebody in there as a star Trek six fan.

Speaker 1 (35:42):
Yes they are, That's all I could think.

Speaker 4 (35:44):
I saw that.

Speaker 3 (35:45):
I was like general Chang reference, well done. And also,
you know, just songs we're going through. I hear where
the inspiration for the music were tempt from Indiana Jones
and the Last Crusade here and there, which is cool.

(36:05):
I get you, I hear you, I recognize it.

Speaker 4 (36:09):
But also I think again getting to the beauty of.

Speaker 3 (36:17):
The story is you know, people can change, that there
is space and room to grow, no matter how scared
you are about it. And the fact that we see
an echo that we can then pick up on and
apply forward to for instance, the sand people on Tatoine,

(36:42):
where that's just sort of legacy animosity between them and
settlers and stuff like that, and then we see that
growth into the Mandalorian and we realize it's all based
on misunderstanding and not wanting to to give up the
fight as it were. And I think that it's a

(37:07):
it's a beautiful thing and just but that moment where
she counsels the old man, you know about about changing
and embracing and listening. Man, you know, there's there's a
lesson there that like this is, this is true Star
Wars at its core is it's got a lesson that

(37:28):
you and I can hear and understand. But it's a
lesson the kids need to hear too. You can't hold
on to being mad. You gotta let it go at
some point and you gotta you gotta work through it.
You gotta, you know, because that's and you've got to
learn to be self less instead of selfish. You can't

(37:49):
say no, I'm not going to talk to them because
I want Well you have to consider what what everybody
wants and needs.

Speaker 1 (37:57):
Yeah, And I mean, you know, like you said, it
come down to the whole choice of can you change?
You know, can you see things the way they are?
Are you going to be caught in a loop?

Speaker 4 (38:09):
You know?

Speaker 1 (38:10):
And you know that this self perpetuating loop that of
you see everything and again you know, the grandfather of
the story sees everything in the with the veneer of
war over it right that it's like he's wearing the

(38:30):
war glasses and he can't see anything except outside that
view yep, and so Ventus has to remind him, no,
you're not actually at war. You're literally just living on
a planet and you're supposed to be a farmer. And
these raiders quote unquote, they're just protecting what's theirs because

(38:51):
you've been attacking them and stealing their water, you know.
And so gotta love that the fact that the raiders
are very mad Max vibe well done. Yes, I thought
that was very fun. Of course mad Max in the
sense that they're like, you know, two feet tall.

Speaker 3 (39:09):
Oh. But see, the thing is, I actually thought that
was great because that's a classic Star Wars sort of
thing too. It's very you know, just like it's just
it's you recognize it, but it's not quite real world.

Speaker 4 (39:21):
It's just a little bit off.

Speaker 1 (39:22):
Yeah. I wanted to ask you though that at the end,
you know, they find the path, Leco can go off
on the ship, and yet he chooses to stay with
Venturous and they basically kind of right off into the sunset,
you know, Last Crusade style. I mean, it feels like

(39:46):
to me that if we never saw Ventures again, it
would be a complete disservice to this character, especially with
the fact that we see her in the future in
the bad Batch and it feels like there's a lot
of story that happens to her. Yep, when she meets Omega,

(40:11):
you know, and we also know, you know, Omega goes
off to join the rebellion on Yavin, and so there's
just it just really does feel like there's an incredible
amount of story here that that it would be a
travesty if they never fill in.

Speaker 3 (40:33):
Yeah, I mean, don't have anything to add to that. Absolutely,
I would love to see a venture series. I'd love
to see even if it's one season. I'd love to
see it. Just take take me with her. I mean,
we already know that she's solo by the time bad
Batch shows up, or at least I'm presuming she is.

Speaker 4 (40:54):
So well, give me that story.

Speaker 3 (40:56):
What happened? Why was it something tragic? Was it simply
growing and saying, okay, we got to go our separate ways?
Did somebody else join the rebellion? You know, like that
sort of thing. So I think that would be that'd
be great.

Speaker 1 (41:13):
Yeah, I agree, you know, if we don't get any
more venturous, it'll be very sad, and it's obviously left
wide open for that to happen. And yeah, man, would
it be crazy if Adventures shows up in Ahsoka season two.

Speaker 3 (41:34):
I think the odds against that are very high, but
I would love it. It would be great, It'd be great.

Speaker 1 (41:43):
Yeah, Well, we have a whole other arc with the
with cad Bane, and basically this is cad Bane's origin
story of where he comes from and you know what
makes him tick, and you know, so that first episode
The Good Life is all about his introduction to a

(42:08):
life of crime, and it feels like it takes place
in Brooklyn and or a planet that looks very much
like Brooklyn with its store shops and it's overhead trains.
I just expected Spider Man to be swinging by at

(42:30):
any point. And and and really this does have that
mob stir, gangster style type of movie feel to it
with the story that we're telling about how these two
young orphans kind of get caught up in the life

(42:54):
of crime but then end up going different ways.

Speaker 3 (43:00):
It's hard for me to talk about this one episode
at a time.

Speaker 4 (43:06):
Yeah, we don't have to know. I'm not I'm not.

Speaker 3 (43:08):
I'm not advocating to go one episode at a time,
I want to say that as much as I love
the venturous arc, I've made no secret of the fact
that cad Bane is one of my favorite Star Wars characters.
He's He's definitely a top ten, if not a top five.
Like I I love the character encountering him as a

(43:31):
child and going forward and seeing that echo again of
the lesson that Star Wars was constructed to teach, which is,
you can be selfish or you can be self less,
and life is going to be better if yourself less.

(43:52):
And the fact is that this is some of the
most beautiful animation works I've ever seen, and it's some
of the most low key beautiful writing I've seen on television.

Speaker 4 (44:13):
Recently.

Speaker 3 (44:15):
There is exactly the right balance between what is said
and what is not said, and there are moments that
are truly beautiful. And again, if you want to talk
about Indiana, Jones references bringing it back to just talking
about the first episode, meeting the man with the hat
that's going to influence the course you take with your life. Again,

(44:38):
I think that's a beautiful, beautiful thing because it gives
me that little chuckle of how that's how it went
for Indiana Jones as well. He meets the man with
the hat that you know, eventually the you know, the
mantle is taken up by him when he puts on
the hat, and you know, just sticking with that first episode,

(45:06):
what's beautiful and then it extends through the rest is
they do such a good job of establishing the world
that these kids know that it is the shopkeepers and
the strange rooms in the back and the people doing things,

(45:27):
and it's simply life. It's not nobody's having profound discussions
about what's going on. These two street kids are simply
trying to survive and they just want to have candy
and sugar and fun and the stuff that any kid deserves.

(45:49):
Like you look at it and it's so tragic in
this beginning because it's like, oh wow, these kids don't
have parents, and they don't have love, and they don't
have anything but each other and theft, and it's like
that's so heartbreaking. It's so like I knew I was

(46:10):
in trouble emotionally meeting cad Bane like this because it's
done so particularly well, and it smashes open because cad Bain,
remember that very first time you meet him at the end,
of Season one of the Clone Wars. He's already that

(46:33):
you know, super bad mamagamma Clint Eastwood type, you know,
the Gunslinger, super cool thought of all the angle sort
of stuff. And then just like the Anakin to see oh,
he started life as a child too, and it wasn't

(46:54):
until he had to make a series of decisions that
he turned out the way that he was when I
first saw him, Like, that's you know, the fact that
cad Bane got this treatment was both a beautiful thing
that I didn't deserve and a dirty trick that I
hate them for because now whenever I see Him'm gonna
be like, oh, that poor kid, look at what happened

(47:16):
to him.

Speaker 1 (47:20):
This is going to be an interesting conversation because I
like the cad Bane episodes, but I think they are lacking.
And a big part of that is that while watching them,
I felt like they were making you inference too much.

(47:40):
Because you and I and many others, especially adults right
that love film, you will know all of the things
they're pulling from that give this story meaning for what
these kids are experiencing the life of crime. Thing the

(48:02):
mobster movies. We've watched the Gangster movies we've watched, and
I did not feel like ever in this, this this arc,
that they did enough to legitimize the choices that Bain makes,

(48:24):
especially by the end, I felt like they were just
there was too many places where I needed just a
little bit more about why Bain is so gung ho
to make the choices that he's willing to make. I

(48:44):
feel like there's just not enough. It's not as polished
as it needs to be. And and I will say this,
it's not what I is not. It's not as polished
as I expect, especially in light of the Venturous Arc
or any of the work that they've done in the

(49:05):
Tales of series, whether it's been Empire or Jedi, and
of course you know what we've seen in the Clone
Wars by the end of it, bad Batch, I just
expect a higher bar to be reached in that and
this one. Now hear me say this, I'm not saying

(49:25):
this is bad at all. I still like it. I
still think it's good, but it doesn't reach the level
that I expect this Tales of series to reach in
the sense of like greatness. This one just leaves me
a little bit cold. And that is frustrating for me because,

(49:46):
like you, Cad Baine is my favorite bounty hunter in
Star Wars. You know, when it comes to like you're
picking your different characters in like bounty Hunter or you know,
for the Empire or Jedi or you know, Smuggler, all
these kind of things, it's like, you know, you can
have your favorites, and cat Bane's my favorite. And there's

(50:08):
just a little bit something to put it in the
phrase of a John Mayer song, something's missing from this
arc for me, and.

Speaker 3 (50:19):
That okay, let me start my diatribe about all the
ways that you are wrong.

Speaker 4 (50:26):
But that's okay.

Speaker 3 (50:29):
I'll offer this as a counterpoint one. I don't see
the deficiencies, but taking your argument and breaking it down,
I get what you're saying. It's not that I don't
understand what you're saying. I'm saying that the construction of
the arc is, in my estimation perfect, because like the

(51:00):
the prequels, when Lucas was completely by the time he
was completely comfortable telling it. You know, the way it's
been compared before by myself, by others, by you as
you know, blah blah blah, is it's like jazz. They're
playing the important notes. So the important notes are seeing
him being taken in and that first decision of abandoning

(51:23):
his friend, and then the second decision of you know,
seeking revenge, and that third decision of seeking revenge again.
And the fact that he consciously walks away from his
own son at the end of it, like and the fact.

Speaker 1 (51:43):
That the the.

Speaker 3 (51:46):
Storytellers have the restraint, the restraint not to have his
friend expressly say, but Cad, he's your son. Like the
fact that it's left unspoken because you realize that his friend,
who has raised the boy as his son, is not

(52:09):
saying it because he doesn't want to be the one
that scars the kid. He leaves the question for the kid.
He leaves it to Baine to decide. If you tell
this kid that you're his real father, you're responsible. And
the thing is, it's that little spark, that weird spark

(52:30):
moment of Bain walking away and not saying anything to
the kid. That's that's gorgeous. I watched this arc with
my kid, and I can tell you that the inferences
and the references work. I think that you have an

(52:56):
incredible moment when he goes back and sees his reflection
in the store window that's now shut up, and he
sees his reflection as a child and he shoots it
like that's that's visual storytelling I'm not getting in live
action shows right now, and that and and the thing

(53:17):
is like in you know, it's a beautiful moving moment.
And then I get mad because of like why can't
I get this in other places? Why can't I get
more of this sort of thing?

Speaker 4 (53:28):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (53:29):
I mean I agree that this is this is above
a lot of things that that we watch. I I
would still die on the hill that this show, this arc,
it does not do enough to explain to me why

(53:50):
Colby a ka Cad Baine is so hardhearted, is so
unmovable in any way, shape or form. And uh I
I feel like it again, it's like it just needed

(54:15):
one to two more. Oh I see, I couldn't And
I get, I get what you're saying. Yeah, but I
just I don't. I don't agree And I think I
think that again it's like lacking that one to two percent,
which which would actually put it over the bab.

Speaker 3 (54:37):
Oh see see I again I can't disagree more because
you have him in his childhood, he makes that first decision.
Then when we pick up with him again. We know
he's been with the man in the hat all that time,
who has shaped his worldview and he loves and that

(54:57):
person is taken away from him, and there's that anger,
and then he's betrayed by the woman he loves and
winds up in prison for it. I don't think you
need much more than that to be you know, hard hard.

Speaker 1 (55:13):
I get what you're saying. But the problem is is
that for me, you have this character who has this
relationship with this woman, and what's fascinating to me is
that the relationship with himt with this this guy Laslow

(55:38):
is more important than the relationship he has with her
and I and I can understand how, and I can
infer how an orphan needs a father figure and this
guy kind of becomes that for him. But again, the

(56:02):
way in which cad Baine just kind of comes off
is the complete, just total, and I'm going to keep
this very friendly for families, But he is the worst.
He is the absolute worst in the decisions that he makes,
the fact that.

Speaker 4 (56:19):
He yeah, he makes bad decisions, sure.

Speaker 1 (56:22):
No I know, but like, but the beauty that I
love about Okay, you brought up the prequels, right, is
that every decision Anakin makes is the kind of this
this good intentions path there are.

Speaker 3 (56:38):
Actually it's slowing the Tuscans. Wasn't really a good intention
I'm to get.

Speaker 1 (56:44):
What I'm saying, though, is like there there's there's this
understandable thought process as to why Anakin kind of makes
the choices that he does.

Speaker 4 (56:53):
And I think that's completely there with cad Baine.

Speaker 1 (56:56):
And I disagree it's not there enough, specially when it
comes to his relationship with Aaron, especially when its relationship again.

Speaker 4 (57:06):
Do you want to see the first or something?

Speaker 1 (57:09):
No, what I want to see is what happened in
his life to make him turn so like his heart
is a complete heart of stone.

Speaker 4 (57:22):
You see those things, No, you don't.

Speaker 1 (57:25):
You don't see those things.

Speaker 4 (57:27):
You know you don't see. You have to infer those things,
and there are.

Speaker 1 (57:34):
Look, we've talked about this so many times. Things need
to show. Please no show.

Speaker 4 (57:45):
The showdow negotiation, and we don't show you listen the show.
Do tell phrase is so massively abused and misused by.

Speaker 1 (57:57):
Everybody who's making don't abuse it in the way I'm
using it. Disagree with may disagree about that one I
bet I have a friend who would agree with us.

Speaker 3 (58:07):
You might have a friend. That's possible. Whether they agree
with you as immaterial. But and and call appeal to authority,
how dare you? That's not that's not cool.

Speaker 1 (58:20):
The I've appealed to authority, can't I've appealed to editing,
which is another thing that you like to talk about.
And and I've appealed to storytelling. And all three of
those agree with me in this.

Speaker 4 (58:32):
Oh oh do they do? They?

Speaker 3 (58:34):
They do, by the way, appeal to appeal to authority
as somebody who was in the debate club that loses
you points.

Speaker 4 (58:40):
Just so you know it's a negative.

Speaker 3 (58:43):
But in terms of everything that's being told with cad Baine,
you see the moments that turn him into what he
is by the end of it. You see those moments
he makes the first bad decision that sets everything off.
He has a character telling him, don't go off to
seek revenge. This isn't what you're going to want to do.

(59:05):
Then that character betrays him and he winds up getting
sent to prison. That's also a thing that will that
will make some The.

Speaker 1 (59:13):
Thing about this is that she tells him specifically, there's
more to this than you know, because she hasn't had
the time to tell him, hey I'm pregnant yet. Yes,
I know, and and but my point is is again
he chooses revenge over her. Yes, And what I don't

(59:36):
what I don't think that the episodes do a good
enough job of is showing you specifically as to why
Colby would make these decisions to turn into Cad Baine
who becomes this cold hearted turd face. No that nothing

(59:59):
moves him, no except for the idea of revenge. What
what drives him to the point where all that's left.

Speaker 3 (01:00:07):
That's the point is that the Okay, the thing is,
you're digging in your heels. You're not even listening at
this point. And that's fine, that's fine. But when he
gets to the point where he has shot his former
best friend who's dying, and then he realizes that former

(01:00:30):
best friend has been taking care of his son this
whole time and has acted as a father to him
that he couldn't be and he turns away and walks off. Yeah,
that's a decision too, and he's deciding to be that way.
It's not that he's passively embracing fate and saying, well,

(01:00:52):
this is my life. Now he's saying, Oh, the way
he's going to survive is to be that he has
to decide to go down that path, and he decides
it's a very active way to do it. And like,
I just couldn't disagree more with you about this whole,
this whole thing.

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
Like again, you hit, It's fine, It's not the first
time you've been wrong in our conversations.

Speaker 3 (01:01:17):
Yeah, well, I'm sure I'm looking forward to our and
or discussion when I may throw some of these things
right back at you.

Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
Yeah, that's okay, that's that's a straight up masterpiece.

Speaker 4 (01:01:26):
And yeah, the viewing numbers, yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
But I think I I totally get what you're saying.
All I'm saying is it needs one percent more.

Speaker 3 (01:01:43):
And I'm just saying and that's like walking into a
designer and saying.

Speaker 1 (01:01:49):
That is because in tails of the Jedi Tales of
the Empire, in those last few seasons of the Clone Wars,
the Bad Batch, I don't have any of these type
of critiques like this, but this one I do, and
it just feels like this. I my opinion is that

(01:02:11):
this arc does not feel like it has the the
quite the polish it has polish, but it doesn't have
quite the polish that even just the Massage Ventris arc as.
Now this, this, this arc does have some incredible visuals.
That moment of the standoff there in the second episode

(01:02:35):
where the Embers are flying by them just drop dead gorgeous,
Like you know, all of that stuff here is on
an incredible level and meets with all of my expectations.
You know, I love all that. I think they do

(01:02:56):
such a great job in that.

Speaker 4 (01:02:58):
And so.

Speaker 1 (01:03:00):
I don't want anybody to hear this to say, you know,
if you're listening to this, I'm not saying this isn't
a good arc. What I'm saying to me, this isn't
a great arc. And so and again, it's not like
it's bad. It just doesn't reach the heights that I've

(01:03:20):
come to expect from the work of the animated team
there at Star Wars over the last few years. And
you know, it's fine if if you know, again, I
just rewatched it before we recorded, and it's not like
I don't like it at all, it's just not I

(01:03:45):
if I have a choice, I'd rewatch you know, arcs
and Tails the Jedi or the Assage arc or Tails
the Empire before I watched this one again.

Speaker 4 (01:03:56):
So that's fine.

Speaker 3 (01:03:59):
I will take the role of the saying here and
just it's it's it's a low key, just absolute toward
a force in visual storytelling and in uh tragedy honestly,

(01:04:22):
because Cad Baine is completely responsible for every one of
these decisions that screw up his life and he doesn't
have regret about it. Like that's what makes him even
worse is he doesn't express any regret about it. Vader
where you know, Vader's you know, sad about it, you know,

(01:04:42):
at least implied. He is like, oh no, I cause
these things and this is terrible. I did these things.
Cad Baine's fine not redeeming himself. In fact, we're going
to see him all the way to the end of
his life. We've now seen his entire lifespan. Basically, No,
he just doubles down, like right, and that in and
of itself makes him an even more character that he
isn't sitting there saying oh no and being passive about it.

(01:05:04):
He's making these choices as he goes along and he's like, well, yeah,
I made this choice and I'm going to stay. And
there are people who are just that stubborn who aren't
going to look at it and you know, uh uh,
you know reconsider they're just going to choose this is
this is what I chose, and I'm therefore right and
I'm not going to change my mind because that's just

(01:05:27):
how I want it to be.

Speaker 1 (01:05:29):
Sure, No, and I agree with that. My only contention
is is that if you're going to have her have
a character be that in Transient, I would love a
little bit more understanding as to why they are that
in Transient. I'm just by their heart is so dead inside.

Speaker 3 (01:05:51):
I'm just offering that I'm not the only person who
who picked up on this.

Speaker 4 (01:05:56):
This is obviously just going.

Speaker 3 (01:05:57):
To be a point of disagreement between the two of us,
whether you want to make an appeal to authority or not.

Speaker 4 (01:06:02):
I I am.

Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
No again, it's it's again.

Speaker 4 (01:06:06):
I love on this one.

Speaker 1 (01:06:08):
Totally fine with it. It doesn't bother me that we we disagree.
I think obviously too, it makes for a fun show
for everybody to to be able to listen to. But John,
with the discussion of both arcs, here, where are you
landing your rankings for Okay?

Speaker 4 (01:06:29):
And where do you land.

Speaker 1 (01:06:33):
I think I'm probably going to give this four stars.
I I think if if it had just been the
Massage arc, it would be a full five. And uh,
the cad Bane arc for me is what, like I said,
while good, it just doesn't I mean, it's a four

(01:06:56):
star arc itself, you know. Uh, and so you know,
maybe this could be four and a half stars, but no,
I mean again, if I'm splitting them up, it's five
stars and four stars, and I guess together you just
kind of come down to me for four stars. And
so but I love it in the sense that I

(01:07:20):
mean when it comes to my enjoyment of Star Wars material.
You know, the animation continues though to hit it out
of the park. Whether this was my favorite thing they've
done in animation is totally irrelevant. I mean, it just
it continues to just be some of the best Star

(01:07:41):
Wars storytelling that we get. And as we mentioned at
the beginning when we talked about you know, mall shadow Lord,
it's like, this is what makes us so excited that
we're doing this, right, we're gonna get that show is
because it's so great. It's it's so good the stuff
that they do. You know, I think specifically when I

(01:08:05):
think of the loving care of that those opening shots
of the Massage arc. I mean, every part of this
is done with love and uh and so I can't
wait to get more Star Wars animation. But John, if
people wanted to find you, and I'm sure send you

(01:08:25):
messages about why I'm stupid and all those types of things,
that where would they find?

Speaker 3 (01:08:32):
Oh, come on, come on, don't be that way. Don't
be that don't don't curl up at a little pill
ball there and be all like, oh, hurt by everything, pillball.

Speaker 1 (01:08:42):
You know me, I will defend my opinions to the death.

Speaker 3 (01:08:45):
And hopefully, hopefully, hopefully it'll escalate to that at one
point one of us will clutch our chest and kill.

Speaker 4 (01:08:52):
You know what.

Speaker 1 (01:08:53):
You know what, at least I'm not at the point
where you're trying to find flights to my house so you.

Speaker 4 (01:08:59):
Can burn my Well, thank you for listening.

Speaker 1 (01:09:01):
And one listener knows what that means, Tristan Raddell.

Speaker 3 (01:09:05):
Well, and he knows he deserves it. No, I know
for a fact that you're going to be flying to
the the the wonderful Kingdom of Kesslvania in a couple
of months, and uh, justice will be meeted out. Then
good sir, Why why why fly.

Speaker 4 (01:09:22):
Out to you? And you're making it easy for me,
That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (01:09:26):
I thank you for it.

Speaker 4 (01:09:28):
Saved me A ton of cash is coming here to
take your bill.

Speaker 1 (01:09:30):
All I know is, you know, everybody's like, what are
you to talk about it? But you know, the old,
the old Tristan doesn't have the guts to do that,
So at least I got the guts.

Speaker 4 (01:09:38):
Yeah, that's right, Yes, that's right, that's right. You're coming here.
You're going to take your medicine like a man, and
I appreciate it. That's right.

Speaker 3 (01:09:47):
Well, what that's referencing actually is that I co host
house lights over on the Nerd Party with Darren Moser
and Tristan Riddell, both of whose cars I'm going to
set on fire at some point once I save up
enough money to fly out to their houses, or they
can drive over here and I'll set fire to their
cars here. And of course, over on the Nerd Party,
Matt and I also co host Aggressive Negotiations, which you're

(01:10:11):
listening to on that feed that you're listening to this
on whatever words, So you know, thank you for that.
I'm castle junkie out there. Yeah, I'm not very active
on social right now, but you know, feel free to
seek me out if you will. But you know, Matt,
you know we have a time over there on aggressive
negotiations on the Nerd Party.

Speaker 4 (01:10:31):
But you know where else can people find you at?

Speaker 1 (01:10:33):
Yeah, you could find me all over social media under
the name Matt Rushing Zoe too. So I love to
talk to you there. Please hit me up once we
get a chance. You can also find me over on
the Nerd Party Network with another show called owl Post,
which is a completed show about every single chapter the
Harry Potter series. And here on the TFM Network in
the six or two Club, you'll find me with a

(01:10:53):
lot of great Star Trek talk there with the great
Chris Jones Is. We talk through a lot of different things.
One of my favorites is the fact that we're doing
a bunch of anniversary rewatches for Star Trek shows, so
you know, whether it's Star Trek, Voyager, Start Trek, these
Chase nine, Star Trek Enterprise. Look forward to having you

(01:11:16):
listen to those over there with Warp five to the
Journey and the Orb and of course we're looking forward
to the fact that at some point this summer Stranger
Worlds is actually coming back, and so saddle up, we'll
be back as well. So check all of those out.
But John, you know, I think it's time to close
these negotiations and you know, maybe just you know, have

(01:11:39):
a drink here in a six oh two club after
those well what we could say aggressive

Speaker 3 (01:11:46):
Negotiations, master rushing negotiations are closed, then y'all come back
here