Issue 400: A Star Wars Celebration

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the ned Palty. Hi. This is Nick and Astasu,
story editor on Star Wars, The Clone Wars and Star
Wars bad Batch, and you are listening to aggressive negotiations.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
Well, hello, and welcome to aggressive negotiations. That slice of
Star Wars Heaven that you just can't get enough of,
like that your favorite piece of pecan pie or apple
pie or you know whatever. Float your boat. We're coming
at you live from the Jedi Temple as it's been
restored here lovely, and I'm so glad to be back
with my one and only friend. Yes, I've only got

(00:50):
one friend, just kidding, my one of my best friends
in the world, Jedi Master John Mills. My goodness, it
has been four hundred episodes, my friend. You know, how
should we celebrate.

Speaker 3 (01:04):
Four hundred episodes? Well, you know, usually something like that
calls for a party, some sort of celebration. And what
do you do with a celebration, Matt. You invite your friends,
your other friends on to help celebrate everything, and friends
who means something to you and to what you're talking
about and what you're celebrating. So let's go ahead and

(01:24):
open the council doors and drum roll please, welcome mister
Nick Anastasio. This is your first time on the show
in how how long was it, Matt.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
Let's see, the last episode Nick was on was two
seventy five, and that's been seven thousand and one.

Speaker 3 (01:39):
So that is really has it been that long.

Speaker 1 (01:42):
It's been out long?

Speaker 3 (01:43):
No, No, has it been that long? Well, Nick, welcome
to the Jedi Council Chamber once again, And just for
anybody who hasn't been with us for that long, why
don't you please introduce yourself to the crowd, let them
know who you are and what it is that you do.

Speaker 1 (02:03):
Well, first, thank you so much to both of you
for having me on. It's a great, great honor to
be to have been chosen to be part of your
four hundredth episode celebration. That's it's such a milestone. It's huge,
and I'm really really grateful for that. I So I'm Nick.
They know me as Nika At work, Nick and Astasio,

(02:25):
and I'm the story editor, writer and story editor for
Lucasfilm Animation, and I have worked on the Clone Wars,
on Star Wars, The Bad Batch, on Tales of the Jedi,
Tales of the Empire, Tales of the Underworld.

Speaker 3 (02:47):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, Tales of the Underworld, which
and you know that that is I want to draw
a special attention to those Tales Of series really quick
before we dive into everything, because I think that these
are little slices of if you'll forgive the way I
put this, little slices of perfection that people overlook because

(03:10):
of the fact that it gets back to the roots
of that really granular short form storytelling that Lucas himself
was championing all the way back in the Gendy Tartakowski
Clone Wars micro series that were going on, where it
was like, can you tell me a story in one minute? No,
I can't, mister Lucas, but I can tell you one

(03:32):
in three Can we do it in three? Fine? You
got three minutes to tell me that story and the
way that fans ate it up and in today's environment,
I mean, the first question I want to throw to you, Nick,
in the large body of work with this Tales of
was the impetus just to find a short form storytelling format.

(03:53):
Was that the entire driver for it to say, Hey,
we want to do short form and we want to
embrace this, you know, social media swiping environment, or was
there some other motivator for making these these brief episodes
that would serve as these these great arcs.

Speaker 1 (04:10):
That's a that's a really good question. Well, first, let
me like say that, as as the force would have it,
we were recording this your four hundredth episode on what
is also the twentieth anniversary weekend of Lucasfilm Animation. So
that's a pretty pretty sweet combination here of things. And yeah,

(04:34):
so I mean, you basically nailed it, you know, Dave
from day one, as far as I know, as far
as I'm aware in conversations that I'm that I was
part of, at the heart of the decision to tell
the tales of Stories was Dave's desire two, which is

(04:58):
always part of of the thinking that he hasn't that
he imparts on us to honor George's sensibilities, George's storytelling,
the discipline and the craft that George taught us, and
the influences that weighed on George when he before he

(05:21):
made Star Wars and while he was making Star Wars,
and so that was always really at the core of
what I saw, you know, being passed on to me
and to others as to why we were making those
those particular stories, telling them and how we were going
to tell them and why we were going to tell

(05:42):
them that way. There there Now I know because I
was I was fortunate enough to be there that one
of the first and again this is only from my sliver,
you know, from my experience as far as that my
awareness goes, that was the first. This is the first
time that I became aware of something that later on
became part of the Tales canon. When we were working

(06:05):
on the final four episodes of the Clone Wars, and
one Dave and I would he would often time. He
had asked me if it would be okay because he
was so busy already he was doing season one of
Mando I think at the time, finishing it up. He
had asked me if it was okay for him to

(06:25):
kind of stop buying for us to work like evenings
on on on on those episodes. And I said, of course.
So we would often time like do sessions together, like
late into the evening after everyone had gone. And one
and one scene that we worked on a lot was
the Order sixty sixth scene where has to defend herself

(06:47):
from the clones from from Rex and the other clones,
and and we would like we would finesse that scene
over and over and over and over. We would kind
of butterfly around different things, but like there was like
a couple of scenes that we would always come back
on and say, Okay, let's make let's not just be content,
let's just watch it again. Let's see what we can
do to make it better to you know, think about it.

(07:08):
And I remember one evening, you know, as Dave does
sometimes when inspiration strikes him, he basically starts to write
by speaking out loud, and we're working on it, and
we're taking a break for one reason or another, and
he's kind of saying, you know, one thing we shouldn't.

(07:28):
I don't like I don't like assumptions, and I don't
like assuming that Ahsoka is is just good enough that
she would survive. We've seen the clones. We know the
clones are really good, and we've seen them kill Jedi
that we know are very accomplished, very wise, very strong,
you know, And so to just say that she's lucky

(07:51):
or that she's good enough, to just say you have
to buy that is does that doesn't sit with me,
you know. And at the same time, I know that,
but within the story we're telling now, there's no way
to kind of do anything else about it. It just
has to be like that. And he started to kind
of like riff, you know why in his mind, what

(08:12):
would satisfy him, what would make it okay? How I
would it would fit into the the the the Star
Wars story, And it was all about her relationship with Anakin,
And it was all about the unrecognized qualities that made
Anakin the chosen one, that made him, you know what

(08:32):
could have been the best Jedi of all, you know,
and how he would have seen certain things that other
Jedi might have missed, and he would have prepared her
for those things, you know, in a way that other
Jedi might not have thought of, you know. And he
basically was kind of going over the story of what
became sort of loosely one of the episodes of Tales

(08:55):
of the Jedi. And and I remember him at some
point towards the end of that conversation and he said,
you know, I have to make a couple of phone
calls and have some conversations. I wonder if there's a
way that that could actually be, you know, like maybe
something we do separately as like a short story, something
like a vignette, something that kind of like shows coda.

(09:18):
And that was all I heard about that at the time.
And you know, I know that this is in terms
of like explaining other things, you know, where that one
came from from. Again, from that moment, that was kind
of my exposure, you know, in terms of his ideas.
But I know that like, fundamentally, the main thing was

(09:41):
that he wanted to have these codas and really kind
of like, you know, write a love letter another one.
You know, they're all different love letters in their own way,
but that this was a love letter to George and
to Star Wars, you know, in the choice of cinematography

(10:01):
and the choice of you know, being economic about dialogue
and the themes in the way we were going to
treat it, and and in a way it was kind
of interesting. What I loved about those particular ones was
it was about like telling the shortest stories we had
ever told, but actually being able to find a way

(10:22):
to make them the most complex, full cinematic stories we
had also ever told. So even though they are the
shortest ones, they should feel like they're the heaviest in
a good way, not not heaviest you know, dour and
you know, but just like dense, packed with with a
lot of meaning.

Speaker 2 (10:41):
Hold on one second, Nick, that last part where you're
talking about the density and all that, can you repeat that?
Your your recording kind of really broke up and so
we lost that, And yeah, where do you wanted to start? Yeah,
just when you said, like about when you were talking
kind of about the depth, kind of just kind of

(11:03):
pick up from like talking about the depth there and
kind of finish your thought so that way the people
will actually get it.

Speaker 1 (11:11):
Sure. One thing that you know, really always fascinated me
the most about the Tale story was how they were
always conceived and structured to be the challenge and the
exercise was to create stories that were going to be,

(11:32):
at the same time, the shortest stories we were ever
going to tell in terms of length, but they were
supposed to be the most dense and cinematic and packed
with a sense of style and sophistication and themes that
would make them the most deft and heaviest in the

(11:57):
best ways possible, you know, the ones that really were
going to kind of sit with you. And I always
found that really amazing as a challenge as an artist
in as a storyteller and as a fan.

Speaker 2 (12:11):
I think that's something that really stuck with me, especially
about you know, when the original Tales of the Jedi
came out and the way in which you guys took
a character to which we had barely ever seen on screen.
I don't think we ever saw ever talk right yaddle
and then bring her to life in a few short

(12:35):
episodes and make her one of the most compelling and
impactful characters in Star Wars. And to me, that was
like the proof of what these type of stories could do,
even within fifteen minutes, you know, ten minutes, twelve minutes,
and because I'd never even really thought about that character,

(12:58):
and by the end of that she had become one
of my favorite characters and made me so sad that
we never you know, get to see her again because
of what happens to her. That I thought was just
the brilliance of this type of storytelling, because there are
so many characters like that, especially within the prequel.

Speaker 1 (13:17):
Era, that.

Speaker 2 (13:20):
Probably have great stories that could be told about them.
And this was kind of mind blowing to me because
again I didn't care about the character before. By the
time it's over, I'm like, where's the black series figure
of this character. Where's that, you know, because because it
became somebody who was impactful as any of the other

(13:41):
major characters in Star Wars.

Speaker 1 (13:44):
Yeah, I mean I loved I loved you know that.
That's that particular episode and the episode with Ahska in
the village where she fights Crow. I think my two
favorites of the ones I worked on for for Tales
of the Jedi, and in particular the one with the

(14:05):
addl And and for me it is because of all
the of all the things you mentioned and how I
mean I remember reading the script. You know, they've they've
wrote wrote those stories, and I remember reading the script
for the story with the Addle, and I mean it
is such a textbook. It is such an amazingly written

(14:28):
script in every way, you know, like the story is
beautiful and beautifully you know, told emotionally, but like there's
also like such clear as a creative you know, like
you you you read it and you know exactly you
can see the shots. You can see how it needs
to be cut, how it wants to be you know, blocked,
and you understand also the meaning of Dave as a

(14:50):
director what he wants to come out of it, and
so that's what's inspiring because you totally get You're like,
oh man, there's so much. There's so much about the
core kind of the basic Rubik's Cube elements of Star
Wars at play there. And that's the thing is, like,
you know, when you understand the rules of that world

(15:11):
and what it's about thematically, the characters, you can I mean,
this is kind of you have all these great things playing.
You have like you know, on the one end, you
have George who created a sandbox that already I mean
he winded it, widened it and created gave you, you know,
a million a million toys in it with which you

(15:32):
can play, and you can play with the dynamics of
what Star Wars is about and the themes that Star
Wars explores, and you can you can move them around.
You can retail some of those those thematics with other characters.
You can kind of switch the perspective. You know, as
long as you're informed and you have the right motivation

(15:53):
and so there's purpose to what you're doing, you can
really do. I mean, that becomes an infinite combination. And
that's where it's the best of both worlds because you
have Dave who provides that you have George at this point,
you know, who left us this sandbox with all these
things that are already in there and things that we
can we can invent, right, he kind of left us
with that opening, and then you have Dave, who really

(16:16):
kind of sees and adds you know, his motivation, his
his direction, his sense of purpose, and that's where like
the magic happens, and that particular story had all of that.
I mean, there's this beautiful poetry about like and tragedy.
I mean, Star Wars is a lot about tragedy. I mean,

(16:38):
it's even in the script, you know, the tragedy of
Darth Vegas, and it's very operatic that way. And there's
so much beautiful tragedy about both of these main characters
in that story, about Yeaddle and Dooku, you know, and
Douku's story. I mean, obviously there's more background to Doku,

(16:59):
but you could see a lot of the same things
about Dooku. You know, Douku is someone who George already
laid some of that background. He again, he kind of
gave us the tools to go where we went with
him in the prequels, but he gives you just enough
to inform you that There's it's not just a villain,

(17:19):
just like Vader is not just a villain, but the
role that he plays in the prequels is still already
by then he's committed to to to a point which
makes him an antagonist. He's just a foe. He is
a villain, right, he is a betrayer, He's a there's
there's you can see these dimensions that are sort of
like under the surface, you know, like the depth of

(17:41):
the iceberg. But it's what you're going to see is
what you need to see for the story. And by
by having that, you know, I mean going back, you know.
I also loved the episode. The other episode I worked
on with Qui Gon was an amazing opportunity, you know,
kind of explore again, kind of like being able to

(18:04):
like look at the themes of Star Wars but from
different points of view, you know, and which is what
Star Wars is also a lot about, and different different
truths from different point of views. And and I had
always I had always seen I remember talking with a
friend of mine about Doku as this was years before

(18:26):
working on these on these stories, and I remember having
conversations with a friend of mine telling him that Douku
was one of the characters I loved the most for
that because I always saw in him kind of the
Lawrence of Arabia quality of a of a very noble
character who was sort of was who fell, you know,
because but and it ended up doing the wrong things,

(18:49):
but for the right reasons. He saw things he was
right about, and and he saw how like the quote
unquote good guys were wrong about how they went about
doing things, you know, and that sort of then burned
his visions his faith in the system. And I thought
that was fascinating as a character, you know. So, yeah,
there is really a gift to have these stories, and

(19:10):
that Dave wanted to you know, that he saw that
in himself and kind of was really interested in Duku's character,
which then led to yaddle.

Speaker 3 (19:17):
Also, I love the fact that time has been spent
not just in Clone Wars, but also Entails of the
Jedi with Doku, because I agree Doku is a character
that's fascinating in a large sense, and it will always
be for this longtime fan. It's always been one of
those things where I've never understood the cut of Doku's

(19:39):
story from Attack of the clones where Obi Wan is
in front of his bust and Jocasta Nu relays a
little bit of information about Doku. You know, that's one
of those ones. I understand, I get it, I get
the process, I get all of those sorts of things.
I'm not trying to reprosecute anything, but like that is
one of those cut scenes where I'm like, it's a minute, guy,

(20:00):
come on, how I you could have kept this in.
So I'm really grateful to get the Dooku stuff. But
my question listening to you go through you know, how
much thought, how much process goes into this is when
you're approaching a series like Tales of the Empire or
Tales of the Jedi or Tales of the Underworld. What

(20:22):
is the the difference, for lack of a better word,
between working on a full scale, full blown bad Batch
season and a little micro season like this. Is this
something that is worked on as intensively, this is my
nine to five for six months, or is this done
in parallel to the other projects that are going on

(20:46):
you know, while things are.

Speaker 1 (20:47):
Happening logistically a little bit of both. We we do,
we do commit to it. Like when we worked on
those seasons, we worked on them, you know, with the
same level of intensity and as a full time thing
as the full blown you know, core series like Bad

(21:10):
Batch or Colone Wars and so on. Now, the schedule
usually was shorter, so it was everything was the same,
but kind of in a compressed, compressed way, you know,
the cycles. You know, the if if I'm going to
have three or four weeks or five weeks of really

(21:35):
big crunch time on quote unquote like full length episode
of a series, that would be crunched to probably you know,
eight or ten days on an episode of tales. And
so it's the same cycles, but kind of in a
in a smaller scale. And uh, and then there is

(21:57):
a little bit, like I said, when it's a little
bit both, there's a little bit of both in the
sense that like schedule wise, because they're a little shorter
at times, they they would be used as sort of
like they would kind of be slotted in periods of

(22:19):
in between where our schedule was a little more free
and so where they would not be done as overlapped
with another production. But I said a little bit of both,
because that that did not always work out. We also
ended up you know, doing some some production on tails concurrent,

(22:40):
for example, with Bad Match, and there were times where
I was working on it's a while back now, but
you know, at least one episode of each probably more
probably a couple of episodes of one and one or
the other and one or the other, or even two
and two something like that, and at different at different stages.
So like the you were able to juggle it because

(23:02):
you know, you're kind of not always at the same stage,
So you might be you might be you know, ramping
up and doing one thing with one episode, which is
you're already working on it, but it's not that time
consuming it, and you're in crunch mode for another one,
and there's a third one which you're sort of like
on the tail end and almost on the verge of delivering.
So that's kind of how you're able to ride those waves.
But you do still have you know, at times overlaps.

(23:26):
And then there's the process. I mean, I don't know
if you want me to speak to that or not.
But also on the creative is different in terms of
how you approach working with those with those types of
episodes versus our full blown series, and that that mostly
has to do with the fact that even though Dave

(23:49):
wrote every episode of Tales of the Jedi, and after that,
he wanted the format to be also a platform for
other creatives in the studio to be able to kind
of stretch their muscle and be able to kind of
he wanted to offer a voice for other other people
in the studio to kind of use use those stories

(24:12):
as a way to kind of like not necessarily step up,
but kind of be able to to participate in their
own way. And I was fortunate to benefit from that.
But it's still Tails is basically very much I mean,
they're all Dave's babies, but that's that's like his that's
it's very close to him. So when you work on Tails,

(24:32):
you know, it's it's uh goes. It's a lot more
like working on the Clone Wars with George. You know,
it's like you deal with like a single voice, you know,
and it's Dave. And Dave says, okay, we do this,
we don't do that, we do this like this, we
do that like that, and there's a discussion, but like
Dave will be like like you know, kind of he's there,

(24:55):
and he's sort of like there every step of the way,
you know, and and when he's there, on the other series.
But on the other series, he's going to be there more,
you know, in what has become the executive producer fashion,
where he's going to oversee, he's going to have the

(25:16):
creative say at all the milestones, he's gonna he's gonna
okay all the things that need to be okay. But
you know, he also understands the trust factor of like, well,
these are shows, like other shows that have to be produced,
and I have to oversee all of them. So I'm
not going to be there every step of the way.

(25:37):
You know, I'm going to put my faith in the
right people in this step to kind of like go
from A to B, and then I'm going to come
in and I'm going to say, yeah, that B is okay,
we can now move on to C. Or no, you
got to go back and like work on work on
the A still until it gets to the right B.
But he's not going to kind of oversee the whole,
the whole, every step of the way from A to B.
So there's there's that, And definitely, you know, when I

(25:59):
was writing on on Tales of the Empire, I saw
the difference in the sense that, like, you know, my
experience writing just like it was when I edited, was
like really much like very much one on one with Dave,
you know, directly. Okay. Uh.

Speaker 3 (26:18):
One last question about Tales from Me is of the
of the ones that have been released so far and
the ones we haven't seen yet, is there one in
particular where you view that as this is this is
my calling card in terms of what I put into this.

(26:39):
Is there something where you look at it and you say,
if there was one of these episodes that people looked
at for an example of my involvement, which is the
one that that to you, screams Nick, that says, this
is the one that that I was able to put
enough of myself into that My worldview, my philosophy, my

(27:00):
everything is in here. You can see that there.

Speaker 1 (27:05):
Well, I will say first, and I really mean it.
I'm not just saying that to be to be to
say the right thing. They're always I mean all of it.
This is how I approach it, you know, I think
it is, and this is how I want to approach it. It's
first and foremost, especially the tails, you know, like I said,
they're always like they're Dave's it's Dave's baby first and

(27:28):
at the end of the day. It's Georgia's baby. I mean,
we're all, like Dave is the first one to say it.
You know, it's not our sandbox. And we will only
do good Star Wars stories if we if we are
humble enough to always remind ourselves that it's not ours
to do to do what we will with we are stewards.
And you know, and you have a responsibility, and I

(27:49):
expect you to also take ownership in the sense of
like you know, you got you got to put yourselves
into it. You can't remote control this, this is the car,
but you know, remember that it's not your car. You know,
you're you just get to drive it. So and and
and I honestly again, like reading the episode with with Yattle,

(28:09):
I mean like it like it's a pleasure to have
like someone like Dave and the way you know, I
of course I love him and I respect him as
a friend, as a mentor. We've known each other for
almost twenty years. But like when I read a script
like that, you know, it's it's so it's so inspiring,
you know that, like you want to do right, just

(28:30):
like I wanted to do right by George. You know,
you do you want to do right by his story
because because like you're like, yeah, this, I want to
do my best as an artist to help him tell
this story because it's so worth telling. Now, I you
know that being said, I will say, you know, I
will put probably equal you know, the I'll the first

(28:53):
episode of Bariss' story. You know, Barr's the story like
meant a lot to me. She is she is. There's
two characters who have meant like enormously to me ever
since the Clone Wars. It's Ventris and Verisoftie. And this
is not I mean it's as a fan, but it's
as a storyteller. You know. The things that I like

(29:15):
the as a voice, as my voice, the things that
I think are meaningful to me in Star Wars, the
things that Star Wars speaks of, you know, in terms
of the human experience. I really live them through those
two characters very much, and I think that they're very
important for me in what Star Wars has to offer

(29:36):
to people as a story in terms of messaging. And
so you know, that was the reason why, you know,
like I really wanted to tell Barris's story, and when
Dave said, okay, let's do it, and then but he
gave me specific parameters and he said, you know, if
we're gonna do it, this is, this is, these are

(29:56):
some of the things that I want to have in
there the first story. In terms of those themes that
I that I talked about and what they mean to me,
you know, in Star Wars, what what Star Wars you know,
speaks of, they are fully represented. Like my personal view
on what Star Wars is about is really represented in

(30:20):
that first episode and the whole arc, But in that
first episode mostly in terms of shooting style, in terms
of cinematography, shot breakdown, blocking, staging. I was very, very fortunate.
I cannot say enough times how lucky I was that,

(30:41):
you know, to have the collaborators and friends that I
have at the studio and in approaching it from Dave,
you know, all all all on down, you know, but
gave me the room. You know. I was able to
work with Sawyl Royce, who was the episodic director on
that episode, who welcomed me. You know, he could have said, okay,
well this is your script and you're gonna cut it,
but this is how I'm gonna shoot it, and he welcomed.

(31:03):
He opened his arms to like go over like the
blocking and you know, how we were gonna approach shooting it,
and then we talked about how we were gonna cut
it together and so like, in terms of a fully formed,
fully fleshed representation of like what Star Wars meets to
me and how a Star Wars story looks like and

(31:25):
sounds like and talks and walks like to me, that
is probably the one that represents that the most, the
one that you know, represents the most what I like
to do. You know, when I work on Star Wars,
you know, four Dave for George, it's probably the episode

(31:45):
with theattle from from Tales of the Jedi. That's the
one that I really poured in, you know, Like I said,
from the moment I read the script, I was like,
oh man, Like I mean Salwil and he also directed
that episode, and like I remember this is We've had
that conversation several times, but that was one of the
times because we've said, you know multiple times, like this

(32:06):
is one of those moments where we tell each other
and ourselves if this is the last thing I ever
do you know at this studio on this you know,
for this show, on Star Wars, this has to be
my best work and so when when I remember when
when he and I wat the script, we were like, okay,
this we have to we have to we have to

(32:27):
give Dave our best work for this is this has
to be like it has to be perfect.

Speaker 2 (32:32):
So cool in that, Nick, because one of the big
things about the Barriss arc is that the first episode
devoted you got to not only work on you know,
as a story editor, you actually got to write the story.

(32:53):
And for somebody you know who started at ILM, helped
work on the prequels.

Speaker 1 (32:59):
You know, you've worked in rooms with George.

Speaker 2 (33:02):
I mean, what was it like to be given an
episode and say, hey, now you you get to write
the story.

Speaker 1 (33:15):
I think it was tremendous. It was a tremendous opportunity.
I was. I was really grateful. I mean, I feel
like I worked to earn it, but at the same
time I was I was very very thankful again of
the of the room, the space that I was given
starting with Dave and working all the way you know
through even when we were later in lighting, and I remember,

(33:37):
you know our art director and Joel Aaron, our director
of cinematography and visual effects supervisor, who because because I
know them, because they know me because we've been friends,
because we're close collaborators creatively, and we respect each other.
They they came to none of them had to do that,
you know, Dave didn't have to, you know, And and

(33:58):
that I was given again the room voice to be asked,
you know, what do you think of this? How would
you like? That? Was an amazing chance. I mean to
go back to the writing, you know, I I like
I said, I had this idea. I really, you know,
I knew Dave had said. I want, you know, we're
going to do more tales, and I want this to

(34:20):
be an opportunity for people in the studio who want
to stretch themselves, who want to contribute to the studio,
who want to bring their voice out. To do that,
you're gonna have to earn it. And step one of
earning it is if you want to, you're gonna have
to speak up and you have to let it be known.
I'm not gonna I'm not going to go among the
ranks and kind of you know, it's I'm gonna as

(34:41):
your as you know, I'm going to do the dad
thing of like teaching you the lesson that you have
to kind of do the work to let it be
known what it is you want to do and how
you want to do it. And I had this idea,
you know, like that had sat with me for Barras
for a while. That was very personal and and so
I pitched that story and I wanted to go through

(35:03):
the channels. So I, you know, put it out through
the channels, you know, and let it work its way
up the ranks until it got to Dave and and
they said, okay, well you know this person said I
like it. That person said I like it, this group
said I like it. And they said, okay, well now
you know it's going to be with Dave and you know,

(35:25):
we'll see what happens. And they you know, got back
and to to to us and said I like it.
Let's let's do let's do you know, let's do the arc.
And like I said, he had like specific things. He
then sort of like rebroke the story and said, okay,
we're going to do the arc. It's going to start there,
it's going to end there. But you know, I want

(35:45):
you know, this is this is what I want to have.
This is when I want to have it take place.
These are the people that I want to have involved,
et cetera, et cetera, And they told me before I
knew any of that. They they you know, they Josh Rymsho,
who's one of our story executives, came back and said,
we're you know, we're gonna do it. Dave likes it,
he's gonna he's gonna rebreak the story, but we are

(36:07):
gonna We're gonna have you write one of the one
of the final production scripts, which was again a great,
an amazing opportunity. I got to work with Matt mcnivitz,
who who is one of the head writers at the studio,
who has the guy who a guy who he has
a huge body of experience going back. I mean, he's

(36:29):
worked on live action, He's worked on a ton of stuff.
You know, he goes back to all the way to
twenty four and worked with us since the Clone Wars.
Same thing. You know, Like everyone involved in our studio
has so much experience. Knowledge of the way that George thinks,
the knowledge of the way that Dave thinks, has himself

(36:52):
brings a ton of passion and energy. I mean, I
don't know what Matt is fueled by, but like the
dude is just like so much I mean so much energy.
I mean I've seen him like I've seen him like
break down stories in in like like for five days
in a row, and like how he ends up at
six pm with as much energy as he started and

(37:14):
and that's like at a level that's ten times like
more than anybody is crazy. But anyway, I worked with him,
you know, to kind of rebreak the story for all three,
all three episodes, to include the elements that they wanted,
you know. And then and then we went our separate ways,

(37:34):
and he worked on on two and three and I
work on one. We would check with each other, you know,
and I would because I was writing the first one,
I would bounce him like my draft so that he
could see, you know, what I was doing. And then,
you know, every step of the way, we had like
three milestone you know, Dave and I kind of get
togethers where he would go over my draft and he

(37:56):
would say, yep, yep, yep, change that, you know, and
he kind of explained because he knows that I want
to learn, so he would teach me, you know, we
got to have this like this and not like that,
because if we do it like this, then it means that.
And so we can get this and again, like he
had given me, which was great, He had given me
clear direction on like specific characters he wanted to have involved.

(38:19):
You know, he wanted to have the Inquisitors, he wanted
to have the Fortress, he wanted to have Vader at
the end, and you know, I had to put them
in a frame work of like what made sense to
me based on the story that I had initially for Forbears,
you know, I wanted it to be a love story
in the end, and I wanted her redemption to to
come through love, and it was always about like love

(38:42):
is what helps her get out, you know, And but
at the end there's still a journey where like she
has to that's the first step, but then she has
to like make the journey to like selfless action, and
that's sort of like the last step. And you know,
like working having having kind of Dave's they wanted to

(39:06):
have the fortress. That's sort of like for me, like
was kind of the impetus of having it be like
that first part was kind of a descent into hell.
You know, I wanted I wanted to be at the
same time as as it is already kind of it
is her ticket out right, So it is the first
step in her you know, her journey out. But at

(39:27):
that point it's it's like to use a to quote
a line from thirty Rockets, you have to climb down sometimes,
so she is climbing her and and and so like
there's in the language, in the camera language and the
visual language. You know, there's very specific things that that

(39:48):
we worked in. I really, you know, so that you
get that idea that she is descending into hell, you know,
all the way down, and and yeah, and then and
then and again. It was really, it was it was
such an amazing experience to have Dave teach me, you know,
give me just enough room to be able to kind
of grow and you know, practice my voice, but also

(40:12):
you know, toute legit and direction that you know, I
to kind of I was just talking about that with
a friend yesterday. Like, it's the best kind of constraint
when you have, when you have like when you have
an amazing creative, an amazing director you know, who says
this is what I want and it's not just a mandate,
they kind of like because there's there's a very specific

(40:35):
reason why they want it, so you know, it's good,
right and it just comes out like it's just they
just say that this is this is the assignment. And
then as a creative you have to figure out a way.
Constraint is always the best motivator, right to kind of
have it be still something that is good. And like
I said, they will say, like you got to drive
the car. It's not your car, but I still expect

(40:56):
you to drive it. So he's not going to be
content with me just kind of parroting or or you know,
sort of like remote controlling. And so I had to
like figure out, like in all these things that I'm
just describing to you guys, like Okay, what is the
fortress to me? How does this how does this like
figure into into her story, into the thematic you know,

(41:18):
and then descend into hell. I wanted to then kind
of get all these sort of spiritual connotations and kind
of have it be more than just the base, you know.
And and so that started to inform that was kind
of me going back even further to like the way
George taught us how to write, you know, and I
was like, then, you know, if the fortress is X,
then it influences the story and that fits into the

(41:42):
journey of Barras and then you get to like to
the result that you want.

Speaker 2 (41:48):
One of the uh you talking about that in the
story for Barris, you know made me think of with know,
the bad Batch, and you know, Dave was just talking
about this at Celebration Japan where he was speaking about,

(42:09):
you know, the idea for the bad Batch actually came
you know, from working with George and and and that
that George's idea was, you know, we could continue the
story of the Clones and you know, past Revenge of
the Sith with this this group. And yet in many ways,
the real surprise in that show was the arc we

(42:32):
get with this kind of mystery character of Omega. And
I wanted to just ask you about her development throughout
the series. Did did y'all always know where you were
going to end up with her, that she was going
to be this you know character who was you know

(42:57):
for sensitive and like basically that the Mino ends had
finally done what you know, Palpatine had wanted and then
they hide that from her and from him. Because to me,
that the beauty of the story with Omega was that

(43:17):
it was never about the mystery box. It was always
about the character. First in her relationship with the Clones.
The joy of that was just that there was always
this looming interesting thing, will we ever find out completely
about her? So I'd love to just hear about y'all's
thought process of developing the character of Omega, and then

(43:42):
of course like how you doled out the information just
about her, and then of course you know just where
she ends up.

Speaker 1 (43:53):
Yeah, I mean, I can speak to the part that
I know, you know. I mean a lot of the
conversations that have to do with what you're asking about
have to do is for that particular project, conversations that
were between Dave, Brad brad Rau, our showrunner Jen Corbett,
who was the head writer for The Bad Batch. These

(44:13):
three entities probably Matt also Matt Magnibus to a slightly
lesser degree, he wasn't the head writer on The Bad Batch,
but he was definitely involved. And then the writer's room
when they would have the story conferences, which involved in
all all of the writers team, including Matt and Jen
and Brad would have been there. Dave would have been there, Dave,
I think, I think for the writers' conferences for Bad Batch.

(44:38):
I don't know if he was like there every day
all the time, the entire day, he might have been
too busy to be able to attend like continuously, but
he would definitely have been there at present. But anyway,
like mostly these conversations would be probably like at the
at the top top level between Brad, Dave, and Jen
to the extent that I know, in conversations that had

(45:00):
with all of these parties. And that's I'm gonna answer
on a general level, but which applies to Omega. You know,
what you do is generally speaking, you know, and this
applies to us. It applies to just development in general
for characters for television. For you, you want to you
get an idea, right, and you sort of like say,
and it's kind of like you can say, well, on

(45:23):
a spectrum of one to nine, this character can be
as little as this or might be as much as that. Right,
so you have you kind of defined something and it's coherent, right,
it's not contradictory. It's not saying well, they might be
as short as five to one or they might be
as tall as as seven to three. No, it's like
either this character is tall. They might be as tall

(45:46):
as like a very tall average person, or they might
actually be a nine foot tall giant, right, and how
how tall we're going to end up defining they are
in the world of the story really depends what we
end up finding out matters the most in terms of X,
Y Z right. And the reason you want to do

(46:07):
that is not because you don't know, because that that
that that shows that you kind of have a pretty
well defined idea of like the meaning. It's because you
do want to leave yourself also the room too. There's
an organic there's an organic nature to character development and
story development, which you want to allow the room for.

(46:30):
It's very important because at some point I I heard
I I was lucky enough to sit down at a
Q and A with Quentin Tarantino when ah, I'm grateful
bastards came out. Wait was that yeah basterwards? Yeah, thanks

(46:53):
and and and I remember talking to him, like asking
him about the death of Hitler at the end of
the show, and I was like, you know, as a storyteller,
I mean this is like one of the biggest points
of history that virtually everyone knows, right how Hitler died,
and so what like, how do you deal as a writer,

(47:16):
as a storyteller, as a director, how do you deal
with the commitment to make such a change in something
that everyone is going to know. And he said, well,
if your story is really true, as in like Israe
is really earnest, he is really honest at some point,
it doesn't matter if it's about real people or not

(47:36):
it's not. It doesn't matter whether it's about events in
the way they happen or not. The story, if it's
really earnest, will tell you what it needs to be.
And and you have no other choice but to commit
to that because that the story needs to be what
it needs to be. And if you if you don't

(47:56):
listen to the story, then you're not going to do
a justice, not going to be the story that it
should be. And so you know the reason why you
leave to come back to us, you know you kind
of leave that room, is because you want to see
as you tell the stories and as you get to
know the characters and they start to they I know
it sounds weird, but they do start to speak to you.

(48:17):
The story starts to speak to you to what it
needs to be. You might, as the writer, you might say, hey,
you know what I really wanted this character to be.
And I'm not specific talking about Omega you know, I
really wanted this character to be a Jedi, right. But
at some point, as you're like three months, six months,
a year, two years into the story, the story will

(48:39):
tell you I know what you want to dude, but
it's not what I want to be. And it's kind
of like a father with their child. You have to
be able to say, Okay, well, I got to help
you be the best version of you what you need
to be, not what I want you to be, right,
and so you have to honor your character. They do

(49:00):
speak with their own voice. It's really weird to say it,
but they do kind of like all of a sudden
come back and tell you what they want you to be.
So leaving that room having kind of the idea, just
like having a child, you know, you're like, well I
hope I would love and then you sort of like
baby that every day kind of hand hold it. And

(49:21):
then you sort of like you have to redcon your
own expectations as that person becomes more and more of
a person and starts to say, well that's cool, but
I want that. And hopefully if you build enough faith
and enough earnesty, you know, in your rapport, you can
kind of have a vin diagram overlap of the two,
and you have to be okay with that. And so

(49:42):
this is where you kind of leave that that flexibility
so that you don't get to a breaking point where
it only works if it's this way. Even though, but
like everything is screaming at me, that's not what matters anymore.
It's not what matters. It might be, and a lot
of times it's really funny. It's actually, at least for me.
I only speak for me personally, whether it's writing or editing.

(50:06):
I'll get an idea when I read a script and
I'm like, oh, you know what, in this scene, I'm
going to use this piece of music and it's gonna
drive everything. It's going to drive the rhythm of the cut.
It's going to drive like the way I'm gonna set
it up. You know, how long I'm gonna hold on
the establishing shot, et cetera. It's all gonna be because
I know like the way that this music builds or whatever.

(50:27):
And I get the footage and I cut and I
cut it, you know, and I don't have the music yet,
and I bail all of that, you know, and I
kind of like I will sort of like start to
craft the story a certain way, and I get to
a point where I've done it with that in mind, right,
and it kind of like does that. But that's the
point where as it takes shape, it starts to kind

(50:47):
of emerge with its own identity. And then I grab
that piece of music and I start to edit it,
and something bumps me and I go over it and
I'm like, what the heck? What is? And I and
I try different things, right because I'm like, well, what
the core, the bedrock of it is that be submitting
that's what started my whole idea for like the emotion,

(51:08):
for the way, for the point that it makes, and
so on and so forth. So I'll try to change.
I'm like, well, what if I hang out on this
lest What if I, you know, like ended this way
instead of that way? What if I make it shorter longer?
What if I And every time it's just like now
there's still And I guarantee you nine times out of ten,
you're like, you know what doesn't work? It's the stinking music.

(51:29):
M not that it doesn't work, like it's it works
as in like it's what motivated the whole thing, it's
what gave it life. But then by the time it
was the thing of its own. It basically tells you, yeah,
that but that's the that's now. Now you have to
like now now, and now I've outgrown this, So now

(51:50):
you've got to give me something that actually that I
don't follow, but that follows me.

Speaker 3 (51:54):
Right, So that that's fascinating in and of itself, because
I know you mentioned, you know, the Q and A
with Tarantino and everything, and it's it's well known that
like he'll have you know, and Lynch is the same way.
He'll have like a piece of music like in his
head when he's he's doing certain things. But like I
sort of bring it back to the silence that you're

(52:14):
working in. But then from that silence, have you ever
had a moment where you know, everybody is having their
meetings and you're you're trying to craft story and where
the characters are going, and then you have a real
world interaction, like you go out to dinner and you
know it's it's with you know, somebody from work or

(52:35):
a friend or or something like that, and you're sitting
there and you're having a moment. Do you have a
moment that you can point to where you were working
on the bad Batch and maybe there was a sticking point,
maybe there wasn't, but somebody said something in passing that
wasn't even necessarily working on the show, and you're like, aha,
that that, and like that unlocks it for you because

(52:56):
it was like sitting in the back of your brain.
Are there ever moments like that that you you bring
back in to the process.

Speaker 1 (53:06):
That that can happen. I will say, usually it's more
of an internal dialogue and and I'll have like things,
and it can be it can be something that I
see or hear, but even when it's the case, it'll
be more like a time delay where it's sort of
like that I might in the moment, I won't say,

(53:26):
oh oh, it'll be a thing that will kind of
like you know, have its own. It'll sink in for
what it for what it is, which is separate, and
then it'll add with something else and something else, and
then when I'm actually thinking back about the problem or
or sitting down to look at this cut or whatever,

(53:46):
all of a sudden, I'm kind of adding to and
two and then that will kind of trigger like a
hole like tumbling of the of the blocks. Right. But
more often than not, it's it's more of a it
is not unlike that process, but it's more internal, like
I was saying, you know, with the example of the
piece of music, and it's kind of like it's almost

(54:08):
like looking for the solution to a mathematical problem, and
you or like a Rubik's cube, and you keep like
you're like you're trying to like you're trying to like
move the faces, move the faces, move the faces, and
all of a sudden, the pattern you're like, oh, wait,
like when I did this, I had three here and
two there. When I did that, I had four and one.
And then you're kind of like, I think, and you're

(54:28):
sort of like mentally going, I think that means that
if I go, if I go ACD A lead to this.
And then you try it, and then sometimes you're like yep,
click click click click it works, or you're like, Okay,
it's not quite there, but you can feel that you're
on the right track in terms of a thought. So

(54:49):
you're sort of like, all right, let's see why what
what worked worked, why that direction feels good, and that
might that will probably help me figure out what's still missing,
you know, why it's not quite there. And then usually
in a you know, a couple of steps you get there. Now,
the the incidences that I've had where like that, I

(55:12):
I think are more akin to what you're describing. That's
that's working with Georgia day. And that's because you know,
as teachers, like you come to them, whether whether it's
a problem on the page and the cut, with an

(55:32):
idea basically and you have that block right, and you're like, look,
I feel like I have it, but like every time
I go I do the process of the rubik scube
that feels right, I still end up with like one
wrong color in the damn middle of the of the face.
And you know, they'll go like, okay, show me, and
then you kind of go and then usually they'll be

(55:53):
like show me again, and then you do it like
two or three times and then and this is this
is their talent as storytellers, as filmmakers. They have the
ability to look at it from a macro and and
they're also great teachers, right, so they will say, okay, well,
the reason why it's not working is because yes, you

(56:13):
have the right idea, but when you move it like that,
you know, you put this in the wrong position, and
so you're you're only going to end up with that
splash of color. The right way to do it is,
and they'll explain to you why and then it'll make sense.
I'll give you an example so that it really kind
of like sinks in. You know, when we were working

(56:35):
on the Clone Wars, on the Malevolence arc, we had
and this is like you know, beginnings of times when
dinosaurs still roam the earth and we were baby storytellers.
We had no clue what we were doing, but we
were like eager to learn. And George already could tell that, right,
so we we we bring him two. We bring him

(57:01):
in to show him our latest and greatest version of
this is the last episode, the one where they do
the run at the Malevolence and they you know, end
up destroying it, and we tell him. You know, Dave
was always super good about that, you know, in the
spirit of like teaching us. He would always like frontload
and tell George, Okay, we have this, we like the

(57:24):
idea X, we really love it, but we also feel
like there's something that's not quite working right now. Oftentimes,
if we knew what it was that wasn't working, he
would say, this is what we have a problem with here,
We're going to show it to you. This is our
you know, best foot forward, tell us, tell us, teach us,

(57:45):
what is it? And so we come to like the
you know, and this this was one of our longest
review this one, like the started in the morning, I
think mid morning, I think around ten, and it went
until like one point thirty in the morning, and we
got to like the last act and the climax, and
and you know, Dave had already kind of told him

(58:07):
we love this idea of like the death Stark Trench run.
You know, this is our death Stark Trench Run. Right,
but something if something is not working about it, something
doesn't feel right, doesn't feel believable. It doesn't land, and
we can't you know, we've tried, we've tried a thousand
ways to like shoot it, cut it, and it still
doesn't land, and but we can't figure out what it is.
And was like, okay, let's go over it. And we

(58:28):
went over it. He and George would always he would
always be like, all right, let's watch it, and then
we'd be like super quiet. He would just watch and
if you and if you looked at him, you could
see him like really kind of concentrate, and he would
like you could even see his eyes like like working
clockwise around the screen. It would end and and then

(58:48):
he would say, like play it again, and we wash
it a second time, sometimes three times, and he wouldn't
say anything. He would just watch and study and focus,
and then he would he would say, Okay, you know
we're gonna break it. Don't be afraid. We can always
put it back together. We probably won't, but I'm gonna

(59:09):
show you how it's gonna get better. And in this
he actually explained to us before because because they've had
asked him, like, you know, you know, help us learn
why it's not working. And he said, I'll tell you
why it's not working because and this goes connect to
what I was saying earlier. He said, because your original
idea is to do a death Star trench run. And

(59:29):
he said, you know this is the Rubik's cube, right,
And he said, so because you're binding yourself to that idea,
you are trying to pace it like the way that
you would if you were shooting a death Star trench run.
But there's a critical difference which paints you in a corner,

(59:50):
which is the death Star is the size of a planet.
The Malevolence is a very big ship, but it's still
just a ship. So by staging it and blocking it
the way that you would the death Star trench run,
you break before you start the believability of your chain
of events, because these ships would fly thirty times around

(01:00:16):
the Malevolence in the amount of time that it takes
you to do a single run along the left of
the ship. Because you're trying to you're trying to build
it up. You're trying to have that nice sense of
crescendo with a death Star, but it can't happen with
the Malevolence at this piece that these ships travel at.
They're even a ship as big as the Malevolence, it's
going to take them just a couple of seconds. So

(01:00:36):
you have to stage it in a different way so
that you can get you can we can get to
that to what you're trying to do, but don't approach
it like it's the death Star. You have to kind
of say, the idea is, but how do I make
it work telling the story with this ship?

Speaker 3 (01:00:51):
Okay, yeah, that's really cool. It is it is in
terms of breaking you know, uh, beats like that down,
Like I actually want to jump over to the Bad
Batch because the way that the uh arc with Mount

(01:01:12):
Tantis resolves itself, and you know that all the different
plot lines, the stories going on at that how how
tough was it to come to the resolution of that show,
to come to the way you wanted to resolve things
and the way you wanted to pace things to get

(01:01:34):
there within that very that very arc you you're going in,
you know this is it. You're You're You're coming on
the final loop. How are you a play final loop?
Final lap? You're coming in on that final lap? How
long does it take there too? With all that experience
you have beforehand, Like, does it get easier or is

(01:01:57):
it even harder? Because you know those patterns in the
Rubiks cube that you have to contend with.

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
Well, in the case of the Bad Batch, it gets
a lot harder because you have so many more pieces
in play. And I was lucky enough that I didn't
have to deal with the hardest part of that of
that hard part juggling that was again that was mostly
you know, Brad and Dave and Jen and then them

(01:02:29):
working with sort of the greater forces, you know, including
even the continuity guys. Because you're dealing with pieces that
are on the board relative to other parts of the
Star Wars timeline. You know, things that have been in
other stories. You're connecting with events, you know, places and people,
so you so that's where like a lot of things

(01:02:49):
come into play which you have to juggle. But you
also you don't want to do it in a way
which becomes mechanical, which means, okay, I have like the
mechanics of the Rubik's cube. The great thing about that
is that it's just a mechanical thing, right, There's no
creativity to solving the Rubik's Cube. It's just it's just

(01:03:10):
what are the mechanics here? There is the part that
Matt was talking about where the integrity of the human characters.
You don't want to compromise that. And that's the really
hard juggling part is Okay, we want to tell this
story about these four guys. They don't give a damn
about like the role that tent To plays in other

(01:03:32):
parts of the franchise. Omega doesn't give a damn about
like who Tarkin is, like you know, but we have
that responsibility. We can't This is the thing of like
we have to be we have to listen to what
the characters want. But we also because we're stewards of
this sandbox that's not ours, we can't break that either,

(01:03:54):
and so it becomes kind of like a really complex
game you know, to play to to make it work
in a way that honors both and you know, I
can speak I know, you know again, I was involved
as an editor. I mean, like especially like the last
the what we called the mau you know, it's what

(01:04:16):
we called our sort of like special It's an acronym
for a movie of the week, but we kind of
just like that name when we have like sort of
like a series premiere or a series finale that's sort
of like almost like a feature feature feature sort of scope.
And for the last two episodes, you know, of Bad Bash,
it was an incredibly I mean at the time is

(01:04:38):
when one of the hardest things I worked on because
it was so complex, the amount that had to to
all the things that we had. We were forced we
had painted ourselves in this corner where we had to
kind of like make sure that we checked all kinds
of boxes. For example, to give you a concrete example,
there were specific characters that we we had to make

(01:04:59):
sure would not be around by the end of the
story because they cannot be around to tell other people
about Pabu, right, and and but we also didn't want
them to just disappear or die and have it show
up as like a mechanical thing. Well of course, because
they can't they can't be around later to tell people

(01:05:20):
about Pabu. Right. It had to really fit into the
story and fit in with what the characters needed to
and wanted to resolve for themselves, you know, I can
give you and that like editorially, you know, as a
story editor also like we were impacted a lot, you know,
because that the story is still very much in flux
when when you work on it editorially. And it was

(01:05:43):
a there was so many pieces, you know, and we
had like the Zilabeast, which was which was our own
that we had introduced, and we had to kind of like,
you know, like it had to play a role in
the mechanics of the story. But we didn't want it
to just have it come in and then just you know,
that's it. We wanted to make sense, right, So we
had all these these pieces, and we had Omega's sister,

(01:06:06):
you know, and how does she We wanted to conclude
her story, but we wanted it had to make sense,
you know. I had to sort of like fit into
kind of something which kind of like checks all the boxes.
But it also had to really kind of pay off
her as a character, and it had to pay pay
off as in her relationship with Echo, with Omega. And

(01:06:28):
I can give you an example, you know, because I
was involved writing and editing, you know, on to jump
back to tales for a second, you know, to mention
like the Fortress. That was kind of the thing, you know,
like when when I knew that, I that we needed
to put the Fortress inquisitorious in the story. And I

(01:06:49):
wanted to find that sweet spot. I needed it to
I needed it for the story to make sense, for
the story to be earnest, if it was going to
be any good. It had it had to obviously give
Day what he wanted, but the story needed to have
but it also had to kind of fit the the
the with the character, with the character needed for their journey, right.
I had to find that sweet spot, and so I

(01:07:10):
I to the best of my ability. Because I don't
have George, I can't go to him anymore and say, master,
you know, teach me, like what it, so I have
to as much as possible as a grown up student.
I have to channel like what would the master, you know, do,
what would he tell me? And I kind of I
basically said, okay, well what is the fortress to me?
In in the George way of things? And I was like, well,

(01:07:32):
if if it is you know, George always thought talked about,
you know, the Jedi as as a religion, the Jedi
as you know, an inspired by the Knights Templar, and
I basically started to kind of like from there, I
sort of went, well, if that's if that's what they are,
then this is what the Sith are, you know to me?
And then if the Sith are that, then it would

(01:07:55):
mean that something like the fortress would be this in
that particular cannon, you know. And if it is that,
it's something that would that would predate, you know, the Empire,
it would predate whatever they built on the surface of
the ocean later. That's more almost of a decoy and
all this other thing. It kind of has to do
with what the relationship between the Sith and the Jedi

(01:08:18):
was at those times, which is more like the times
of the Templars. And so then I kind of and
I was like, okay, and this works with Barris's journey,
you know, and her descent into Hell. And so once
I had all these pieces first, I had to kind
of then go to our Connuity team and Matt Martin,

(01:08:40):
who's one of the stories and one of the story groups,
you know, Connuity executives, and I basically laid it all
out to him. I said, Okay, this is what this
is what you know I need to have. This is
what what works for me to you know, to make it,
to make it work for the character, and to also
give Dave what he wants and what he needs for
the story. Does this work? Does how does this reconcile

(01:09:01):
or not? How am I breaking things? And then in
this case I was lucky for this particular thing. Matt
was like, no, actually, this doesn't You're good. This doesn't
break anything that we've already said or haven't said about
what it is. So you're cool. If Dave is okay
with it, that that that's clear for us. And so

(01:09:21):
then you know, when I met with Dave, I was like, well, okay,
so what if it's this, what if it's that? And
so that means that it's structured like this and then
that would kind of allow us to have barriers to
X y Z, which would also give you the beats
that you that you need. And Dave was like, yeah,
if that's cool. If Matt confirmed that it doesn't break anything,

(01:09:43):
you know, a greater canon, then we're good. And so
that was that. So, I know a lot of that,
A lot of that went into you know, structuring and
kind of like connecting the pieces on an emotional character level,
and also in the greater canon of all the characters involved,
the places involved, the place in the timeline. You know,

(01:10:05):
where are we since Order sixty six? Where are we
relative to you know, the Rebellion Rebels. Yeah, then all
these things you know, kind of really had to come
into play for for the end of Bad.

Speaker 2 (01:10:17):
Batch you mentioned and uh, you know, I just.

Speaker 1 (01:10:24):
Got to be.

Speaker 2 (01:10:26):
Aware of of our time. And I was thinking as
we've been talking through these things, you know, from the
Bad Batch to Tales of the Jedi, Tales of the Empire, uh,
you know, and knowing that we've got you know, Tales
of the Underworld coming, and then there's a the Darth
mar the Darth Maul, Shadow.

Speaker 1 (01:10:49):
Hunt, Shadow lordow.

Speaker 2 (01:10:52):
Yeah, the Darth Mall, Shadow Lord show coming out, and
so Star Wars anime is going to continue to be
a force to be reckoned with. And in all honesty,
you know, and this is you know, John and I
have told you this many times in person, and we've

(01:11:17):
said this many times on the show. And it has
nothing to do with the fact that we're friends and
the fact that you know, podcast seeing actually brought us
all together, which is just an crazy, insane, you know,
beauty of the force to do that. But you know,
twenty years of Star Wars animation, and it has almost

(01:11:41):
always There have been exceptions, we we're not going to
talk about those here that but it is almost always,
I would say, and I think John agrees, been the
pinnacle of Star Wars storytelling.

Speaker 3 (01:11:58):
Absolutely since it began.

Speaker 2 (01:12:00):
We agree, and and and and so because you've been
such a pivotal part of that. I mean, you've been
in almost every single aspect of Star Wars animation from
its beginning, not on again, not all because you haven't
worked on every single show that has been done. But
what do you feel twenty years and now continuing, what

(01:12:26):
do you feel has been the reason for so much
success and and and and so much love And I
was just thinking about this the other day in terms
of Star Wars animation, uh, and and just the the
love around it when you know, Clone Wars saved uh

(01:12:51):
and the emotion that it brought for fans, you know,
and even think about it just kind of can get
to me emotional because it meant so much to us.
And and so twenty years in being a part of
almost every single part of this what what do you
think has has led to this being something that has

(01:13:14):
legitimately captured the hearts and minds of Star Wars fans
old new, and as John's youngest padawan is learning, Uh,
you know, it's capturing yeah, next generation. And so what
do you think that has been and and why do

(01:13:35):
you think it continues to create a legacy that just
won't quit.

Speaker 1 (01:13:42):
That's a that's a beautiful question and a phenomenal question.
And the answer is as I think, simple as it's
it's it's the people. It's the people. And yeah, it's
it's as simple and as profound is that. And you know,
when when things are bad, you can you can almost

(01:14:07):
always say the fish stinks from the head, and it's
generally true. The opposite is true as well, and so
it's the people, and it starts with George and with Dave.
When you are earnest and in your vision, in what

(01:14:28):
you want to do, in the your intent, it doesn't
necessarily mean that people are always going to like or
connect with what you do. But I think regardless, people
are going to connect with with that honesty and with
that that that there's there's profundity, you know, and depth

(01:14:49):
in that. And the Prequel Trilogy is a great example.
You know, the Prequel Trilogy is controversial. You know, we
can be honest about it, like I love and I think,
you know, I think, I mean, I love those movies.
But not everyone liked them. Definitely, not when they came out,
still not today. But what you see with time is

(01:15:12):
that what almost everyone regardless of whether they say I
was just listening to another podcast, you know, a couple
of weeks ago about two people who were discussing Revenge
of the Faith because of the movie's re release coming up.
And one loves the movie, the other one doesn't like
the movie, but they both agreed about the relevance of

(01:15:34):
the movie, the importance of the movie, and how earnest
the movie was, and they both respect the movie for
that right, And I think that so when you have that,
you're going to have material which is recognized for that
honesty and respected for that, and that creates a connection

(01:15:54):
where even if someone doesn't like it, they're going to
have respect, which is a form of liking it. They
might say, well, yeah, it doesn't work for me, you know,
in this way or that way, but damn yeah, I
recognized like this, this is this is the real deal, right,
and in animation, i'd like to think, of course I'm biased,

(01:16:17):
you know that George recognized how earnest we were. Again,
I was, you know, the first one to say when
we started, we didn't know what we were doing, but
we wanted to learn. We had enough talent in our
craft that George was like, Okay, you're capable of learning.
You don't know what you're doing yet, but I can
see and I'm going to teach you. And so and

(01:16:38):
he chose people, you know that, so that, like I said,
you know, the opposite of the fish things from the
head is true too. He pollinated, he hired, he recruited,
He brought to him a flock, you know, people who
were of the same the same mind set in sort

(01:16:58):
of like mind and had the same sort of passion
for the craft for storytelling for Star Wars, and and
then Dave in turn went and did the same thing.
And so that earnest desire to be the best filmmakers
we can be the best storytellers we can be to learn,

(01:17:20):
to always be willing to learn to better ourselves, to
push ourselves. Our love for Star Wars, for George, for
Dave has been still in our DNA after twenty years,
you know, has not really changed that much. If I
if I look at anybody, any one of the people

(01:17:40):
in the top tier of our studio, you know, it's there.
If I can talk about Athena Portillo, who is our
you know, our VP and senior producer. I can talk about,
you know, Alex Spotswood, who is the producer under her,
who I knew when he was a PA, when when
he first started. I can talk about Joel Aaron, who's
our our director of cinematography, our visual efects supervisor. I

(01:18:04):
talked about Andre kirk O, our director, our animation director,
Keith Kellogg. You know, I can talk about myself, you know,
And and I mentioned them, not be not saying that
it stops them there you know there we're sort of
like we're now kind of we're now the old timers,
you know, the gray beards, and and they have they

(01:18:26):
have kind of passed that on in turn, right, and
so it continues to be this pollination. You know, there's
this kid, Ryan, you know, who is a great, a
great storyteller in his own right, you know, super dedicated.
He's one of our pas, and you know, he's an
amazing guy, really talented. You know, he was nine years

(01:18:49):
old when the episode of Brandon Vader's Air wo right,
but he has he has like all the passion and
he he came you know, he was recruited you know
in the last whatever two three years with that same
sort of like DNA in mind. You know that this
sort of like it's something that gets passed on. So

(01:19:11):
from George all the way all the way you know,
through the ranks of our studio. It's something that's that's
still very much there and that desire to be true,
to be faithful, to learn, to be humble, and at
the same time to take ownership when when you when
it's your time to do your thing, whatever that thing is,

(01:19:33):
is there. Like Dave, you know, I was doing that
analogy of the car, you know, like, it's not your car.
You didn't you didn't build it, so don't take it
for a joy ride. But when you're driving, you're expected
to drive. You also can't be in the passenger seat.
So it's that you have to, you know, want to
do both and be able to do both. And that's
still something that very much no pun intended, animates all

(01:19:55):
of us. And and I think that fans, people in
gen will connect with that because you can sense that
like us, you know, to come back to what I
was saying about the prequels, whether you like a show
an episode or not, you will you might not even
really care about Star Wars, but I think I really
have faith that if you watch it, you'll you'll be

(01:20:15):
able to tell that this is done with that degree
of honesty and that earnest, earnest you know, passion. Well.

Speaker 3 (01:20:23):
One one last question from me is as somebody who
has spent so much time in animation going out to
a macro level outside of Lucas animation, when you look
at the animation industry as a whole and you read

(01:20:44):
the tea leaves, what is it you see as the
future for animation is it remaining in the the bespoke
character animation style. Do you see it remaining in or
I'm sorry, moving to more of what says Zamechis was
trying to get to with Beowulf or something like that

(01:21:05):
where there's more mocap involved, or do you see just
basically a further refinement of the approaches and technology, Like
have we hit a point where the technology is going
to continue to grow or has it hit a point
where it's at a point of just constant refinement Just

(01:21:28):
looking at it the industry as a whole, I.

Speaker 1 (01:21:32):
Think the technology is always going to gore. I think
you're not. As long as there's humans, and as long
as there's a human who is has enough free time
on their hand to sit and look at a rock
and look at a twig, they're going to basically wonder
what can I do with that that I'm not already doing,
And that's going to drive new technology, right, And so

(01:21:53):
I think that, like technology is always going to move,
and we can't predict like when when you're out of
stage where you think, well that's about that's it, that's
that's the apex. That's because that's because the next thing
that's around the corner is so unlike anything you can
think of that you just you just haven't thought, Oh,
I can if I take this rock and if I

(01:22:15):
just chisel enough, I can make it into a wheel.
It just hasn't gone on in you know that it's
just gone into your brain yet. But I do think.
You know, if you had asked me that question five
years ago, my answer would have been, from my perspective,
I would have still given you that answer, but it
would have I would have also said, but I think
it's wishful thinking more than anything. Today, I would say

(01:22:38):
that it's like forty percent wishful thinking, and I legitimately
think at least sixty percent. I think it actually is
going to happen. And I will be the first one
to say five or six years ago, I would not
have believed that there was a chance it could happen,
especially in the United States. But I do think it
will happen. I think there's actually I'm certain there's a

(01:22:59):
very good chance it will happen. And I think it
will happen. You know, I think that what certain projects
like I'll credit mostly in the Spider Verse films for
for opening for cracking that door, open finally, but other
projects in its wake have sort of like widened that door.

(01:23:23):
I think there is finally, finally a shot in this
country in particular, and it's really a problem because it
is one that is proper to the United States to
stop seeing animation as animation. When you go see a

(01:23:44):
movie that's shot on Super eight, or that's in black
and white, or that doesn't have dialogue, if someone asks
you about the movie you saw, it's gonna come up
in the conversation, but it's not gonna be the first

(01:24:06):
thing you say. You're not gonna say I saw a
buck and white movie. You're gonna say, I saw a
film wir It takes place in World War two about whatever,
blah blah blah, and it's in black and white, and
you know, there is this really really be like very blunt, wrong,

(01:24:29):
wrong thing about like animation that it becomes this sort
of like like a wall and it's like it's the
first thing it's animated. Yeah, I saw an animated right,
And we have to people have to get to a
point where the story is the story is the story right,
And then again you have to be you have to

(01:24:50):
the story tells you what it needs to be. And
at some point, if you're a talented filmmaker, you're going
to figure out, among other things, the best way for
me to tell that stor story is to shoot it
in black and white. The best is to do it
without dialogue. The best way to do it is to
do it with animation. But that's it, And when you

(01:25:11):
walk out, you should you. Ideally, the best animated film
or story is one that is going to move you,
invest you immerse you in a way where when you
walk out, you're not going to call your mom. You're
not gonna call your friend and say I saw the
best animated film. You're going to say, I saw this

(01:25:32):
amazing film about blah blah blah, and then in the
conversation at some point it's going to come out that
it was animated. But that's that's that's not the thing
that's going to sit with you, right, And I think
that from Spider Verse to something like Flow, you see
that door, then you see the and I use force

(01:25:53):
for forceful terms because it's something that I'm very passionate
about and I really want that to happen. The battering
ram is just like hitting stronger and stronger, and I'm
happy that like ever since the first crack, you see
now other creatives that are like now less hesitant about
saying no, We're gonna just keep knocking, which keep knocking

(01:26:14):
until like it just hits people, you know, from the
ones in studios who green light projects to the ones
you know at home in front of their TVs or
in theaters that that it's about telling the right story.
I would recommend you know that people check out a

(01:26:34):
show called Common Side Effects if you have HBO Max,
you know, which is an amazing story. It's it's it's
masterfully told, which is about like it's about this crack
bought scientist who finds this like mushroom with incredible properties,

(01:26:54):
and it's about like government conspiracies, and it's about like
big pharma and sort of extreme capitalism. It happens to
be animated. It's an amazing series. I would recommend people
check out Twilight of the Gods, which is which is
a project by one of your favorite filmmakers, mister Watchmen

(01:27:17):
and Justice League, Zack Snyder, which is, you know, a
completely different type of animated thing, you know, and but
uses it's a it's a show about Norse mythology. It
just happens to use animation because because it's about mythology
and so, you know, using animation for what it can

(01:27:38):
do visually lends itself to that. But the point of
it is not that it's animated. And I can, I can,
I can cite you know, two, three, four, five more
that are all in the last like two three years.
And I think that like really where it's at is
like everyone's responsibility in our field, in our industry to

(01:28:00):
keep pushing, you know, as artists, as creative as people
in animation to say, you know, it's about the stories
telling you what they need to be. And for us,
we choose to like look for stories that tell us
they want to be animated. But it's not animation for

(01:28:21):
animation's sake. It's just as filmmakers and storytellers, we're looking
for the best way to tell the story, and because
we're animation people, we're going to look for stories that
really demand that, you.

Speaker 2 (01:28:32):
Know, I mean, I'm not going to go on a
whole rant, but I could go on a whole rant
about remaking perfect animated films in live action as if
it makes them better or more legitimate.

Speaker 1 (01:28:46):
But that's a whole other show.

Speaker 2 (01:28:48):
But I had one last question for you, and it's this,
So you you got to tell an incredibly important story
to you with with Barris uh and and and you know,
so my question then is what's another story then that

(01:29:12):
if you get the opportunity, you would love to be
able to tell uh in Star Wars animation, what what's
that story for you?

Speaker 1 (01:29:24):
Oh man? In Star Wars specifically.

Speaker 2 (01:29:30):
Hey, we get paid nothing for this, but you know
we're we're We're still going to ask the tough questions.

Speaker 1 (01:29:36):
Yeah, there's there's one which I can't talk about.

Speaker 2 (01:29:46):
You sound just like Dave right now. There's a story
I want to tell that I you know, I can't
talk about it.

Speaker 1 (01:29:54):
But let's see, let me think about one that I could.
You know, Well, there's this one I don't want to
because I could, but I don't want to because I
don't want anybody. It has nothing to do with what

(01:30:15):
we're doing, has nothing to do with Shadow Lord. But
like some people could could think that maybe maybe he's
saying it doesn't that it doesn't do the game. Todstand right.
So I'm not even gonna go there, you know, I'm
just trying. That's the thing I'm trying to think of
one that like will be clear that it's just you know,
in the vacuum of me, you know, I think you know,

(01:30:43):
oh man, it's so I all right, well I'll give
you a real answer, and I'll give you one that's
kind of a cheat but still real. There is one thing,
you know, like obviously you know, like I've been involved

(01:31:05):
with with animation since the beginning, and the story of
the Clone Wars matters to me hugely, and the story
of Ahsoka matters to me hugely. When Dave was starting
to work on on Ahsoka, he asked me if I
was interested in making the transition, you know, and working
with him in live action, and I said yes because

(01:31:27):
I told him what I still mean, and which is
if I if you think that I can help you
tell a story, I will always do that for you.
In the end, it ended up not working out for
reasons that had nothing to do with him or me,
but one thing that I would love to in any

(01:31:51):
shape or form for me. It's not about again, it's
not about like how how that where that story is told?
How it's told, you know, in terms of live action animation,
what series just as a story purely personally for me
being able to be involved with the story that tells

(01:32:12):
the end of Ahsoca's journey, you know, like literally by that,
I mean like the very last story, Like that's what
I mean by the end of her journey, right, I
really am trying to make sure that none of my
words are misconstrued, you know, as the meaning anything would
like be obviously have a huge like it would mean tremendous,
like a huge amount to me because because of like

(01:32:35):
where it all comes from, how it all started for me,
you know, in my journey with George, with Dave and
in Ahsoka is so important I you know, I can't
wait to be able to see to watch what Dave
does with her character, you know, however wherever that takes
her in terms of like series, movies, whatever. But like whenever,

(01:33:00):
whether that that story, that last Ahsoka story is told
two years, five years, ten years, twenty years, you know,
whenever from now is something that would have a huge
meaning to me. That's sort of like my Chia answer
because it's not directly like in the vacuum of just
for me, for me personally, other than the one the

(01:33:24):
one that really matters that I can't I can't talk
about I think, I will say I've always and this
is not me pandering to you, Matt, Like, there's something
that's always fascinated me about the character of Obi Wan,
like I have. I mean, this is such a no

(01:33:46):
no in terms of like it's such a big, big character, right,
but like where Obi Wan comes from, and I have
I have a story in mind, you know, which Again
it's it's not like a story in terms of like
this happen and then that happens, and this happens. It's
just like an idea more like a theme because of
who he is to me, what he means. This is
sort of like how I work in my head, you know,

(01:34:08):
as a storyteller. It's not like, Okay, we're on this
planet and then this happens, and it's more just like
this character represents that and this is kind of like
the story. And so because of what Obi Wan represents
to me in parallels with other characters outside of Star Wars,
you know, I have this idea in mine and I'll

(01:34:29):
be honest, like, this is I practice I do exercises
with with franchise like Star Wars and others, because it's
a good exercise as a writer. Again constraint like saying
something that's not mine. And it's like there's all these
like really important pieces in play that I have no
control over. So if I had to tell the story
of X, how would I do it? It's a really
good exercise to do. And when it comes to Obi Wan,

(01:34:51):
I've always been like, I don't, I don't. There's pieces
that are sort of like kind of blocks that I
haven't in the rubiksque figured out how to like move
so that don't have that wrong splash up color in
the middle. But I have sort of like this idea
which I really love about about what he is, what
he represents, where he comes from in that sense, And

(01:35:13):
and yeah, that would that would be like if if
I got the chance at some point in my life
to kind of explore that, it would be an amazing thing.
But in my head, it's more, like I said, just
an exercise that I run usually as a way to
kind of practice practice the craft of like being able
to tell stories. When you have these constraints, things that

(01:35:36):
are that are that you have to contend with, it's
a you know, working with with with constraints is always
the best, the best way to become better artists.

Speaker 2 (01:35:43):
I mean, uh, you know Star Wars Mini movie of
the Week, you know, uh, with animation. If you guys
just want to go back and tell the story that
about Setine and Obi Wan with Qui Gon when I'm
not there, they're on the run for a year. I
feel like that's a perfect four part episode right there.

Speaker 3 (01:36:03):
So there's possibilities there. I'll go ahead and make my
own pitch. I'd love to see the end of Watto's story.
I'd love to visit back we see where his arc
is pointed an attack of the Clones, and I would
love to see something where Watto sort of has a
moment of enlightenment near the end where he suddenly realizes

(01:36:23):
how limiting his own worldview was of of everything, and
see him hit like an actual sweet moment where he's
like he just realizes, oh man, oh I participated in
some terror and like, you know, have that actual moment
where he realizes something worthwhile that he could have done

(01:36:44):
and it's all sparked by one act of kindness while
he's down and out. That sort of thing.

Speaker 1 (01:36:50):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's definitely you know, I mean.

Speaker 3 (01:36:54):
Right Yeattle, Yeah, exactly exactly. If Yattle can have a
moment to shine, then I want Watto to have a
moment of shot, moment to shine. Please.

Speaker 1 (01:37:01):
Absolutely, There's there's there's two characters you know that mean
a lot to me. Also the one who's a lesser character.
But I think there's a character that has I've always
found to have like tremendous potential in the sandbox of
Star Wars, and that's Fee, you know, that Batch. I

(01:37:23):
think I think she's a really fascinating character and one
of those you know that in essence you barely scratch
the surface of there's so much more that character can
represent in so many ways. And then one who is
pretty pretty explored already. But I think that he is
probably my third, you know, after the characters I've already mentioned.

(01:37:46):
My third most important character personally is that that I've touched,
you know in my work is Cross Air, Yes, And
I think for me that probably would be you know,
the more I think about it, you know, realistically, like

(01:38:07):
one that because of the importance he has and connecting
it to barrass like what the themes of Star Wars
and how like I receive them and in terms of
like as if I to the extent that I can
be also kind of like preaching for the mentions of
Star Wars as a storyteller myself. That's a character who

(01:38:31):
I think I would personally in a room make a
pitch for. It would be very valid to have that
character have a complete journey. I mean he already has
a complete journey, and within the framework of the bad Batch,
but in his personal, singular journey. Because because obviously the

(01:38:52):
theme of redemption is one of the most important ones
in Star Wars, but different characters have different redemptions. You know,
Vader and Anakin don't have the same kind of way
of sinning in the same redemption as someone like Venturs,
as someone like Crossair. They come from different different angles,
their mistakes are different, and their ways of trying to

(01:39:14):
atone for their mistakes are different. And I think that
like to examine, you know, to me, like the character
of Crosser is someone who, in a sense has the
worst kind of punishment that a person who makes commits
graves mistakes can have, which is realizing one their mistakes

(01:39:34):
and be being told, guess what, no easy ticket out
for you, no Plan ninety nine. You're gonna have to
stick it out. You're gonna have to live a long,
long life, and you're gonna have to think about what
you did every single day of that long life, and
so exploring where that life goes and what that means,
I think is a really interesting idea.

Speaker 2 (01:39:56):
Well, Nick, I couldn't think of, you know, as we're
recording this, it's actually Easter Sunday, So I can't think
of a better place to end than on Star Wars Redemption.
Uh and one ah, thank you for just making this

(01:40:19):
an incredibly special four hundredth episode for for John and
I And thank you for being a brother to both
of us. And we we appreciate you, man, And Uh,
it means a lot to us to to share uh,

(01:40:41):
not only Star Wars, but our lives together with you.
And it's been a it's been a real privilege two
to just be able to call you friend. Uh and
so truly truly thankful that you know. Gosh, John, I
was I was doing the math. We've actually been at

(01:41:03):
this now over nine years with aggressive negotiations.

Speaker 3 (01:41:06):
And I can still remember walking by the piano that
never got played in the house that I lived in
at the time in a different state, hashing out how
the show was going to be and who who knew
it would go this? My goodness, all of the times
that have come nonsense.

Speaker 1 (01:41:22):
Yeah, well I will say likewise, guys, the feeling is
one hundred percent mutual, and I thank you from the
bottom of my heart. I mean, you know, like you said,
we we've become friends, and you came into my life
at a time you know that was that was that
was not easy necessarily all the time, and you were

(01:41:43):
always always there, you know, and so it means just
as much to me.

Speaker 2 (01:41:48):
Well, if is there anywhere that anyone can follow you
if you they wanted to, just to catch up with
you and you know, see what you are up to
when you get a chance to post on the old
social media's.

Speaker 1 (01:42:04):
Yeah, I mean, I will say the easiest is probably
on Facebook because you can find me under my name,
and I'll be upfront, I have like a virtually zero
social media presence because in today's times, I find that
it's the best way to keep my mental health smart
the most the most you will probably see, you know,

(01:42:28):
if you connect with me that way. Is like when
I go on vacation, I post, you know, vacation pictures basically,
but other than that, my my social media presence is
really down to like cat and dog videos, rescue farms
and sneakers.

Speaker 3 (01:42:49):
That sounds like a beautifully curated timeline, and I will
always take the opportunity if you like cat videos, to
pay attention to Uncle Booboo out of China. It's a
magical account, one absolutely worth worth following.

Speaker 1 (01:43:03):
Please will not kidding. I watched so many, so many animals.
I'll give you a recommendation then, like check out, check
out mustache farmer, farmer.

Speaker 3 (01:43:16):
Okay, all right, well.

Speaker 4 (01:43:18):
All right, he's a he's a German, a German dude
who basically runs a rescue farm, and all he posts
is just videos of him hugging, hugging his animals.

Speaker 3 (01:43:32):
We could all use that, I think in our in
our social media profiles today.

Speaker 1 (01:43:39):
Basically, you know, hugging his cow, hugging his turkey, his goat.

Speaker 3 (01:43:43):
This sounds beautiful. I'm all thank you for that recommendation.
I'm all about that, my goodness.

Speaker 2 (01:43:49):
Well, John, when you're not hugging your dog Shelby, where
can people find you?

Speaker 3 (01:43:54):
Well, the greatest dog in the universe rests as we speak,
but you can find me.

Speaker 1 (01:43:59):
I'm out there.

Speaker 3 (01:44:00):
There's Kessel junkie. I don't really maintain too much social
media myself, again for the same reasons that it keeps
you sane. But you can also find me here on
the network on a show called house Lights that I
co host with Tristian Merdell and Darren Moser, where we
go through the works of different directors and disagree an

(01:44:20):
awful lot, but in a very friendly way, which the
world could use more of as well. But Matt, where
can people find you?

Speaker 1 (01:44:27):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:44:27):
You know, when I'm posting on social media, just look
under the name Matt Rushing zero two. You'll find me
if I'm on that platform. Of course, here on the network,
I had the show called Outpost talked about every single
chapter the Harry Potter series you can check out, and
then over on the TFM network a bunch of great
Star Trek talk with Chris Jones doing a lot of
the anniversary rewatches. Is a lot of those shows have

(01:44:50):
hit big anniversaries. Plus you can find me in the
six or two club talking about all of the franchises
we love outside of Star Trek. But John, you know, guys, uh,
it is nerf Nugget Night here at the Temple. So
I think it's time we head to the Commissary and
close these negotiations.

Speaker 3 (01:45:11):
Naster rushing. That sounds terrible, but sure.

Speaker 1 (01:45:15):
Negotiations sometimes join the revolution, join the Nerd Party.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Issue 400: A Star Wars Celebration

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce

All Episodes

Issue 400: A Star Wars Celebration

Stuff You Should Know