Issue 402: Andor: Season Two

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the NED Party.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
Hi, this is Nick and Astasu, story editor on Star Wars,
the Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch, and you
are listening to Aggressive Negotiations.

Speaker 1 (00:41):
Well, hello, and welcome to TFM and the crossover with
the Nerd Party. That's right, we are in the six
oh two Club hosting the wonderful podcast Aggressive Negotiations and
a friend and who knows, we've actually kind of cleared

(01:01):
out some space here in the bar because there may
be some aggressive negotiations.

Speaker 3 (01:07):
Who knows.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
But I am just one of the hosts, Matthew Rushing,
and I'm excited that he is with me as he
is for all Star Wars podcasts in the six oh
two Club, and of course over on Aggressive Negotiations that
everybody should be listening to and checking out the wonderful incomparable, John.

Speaker 4 (01:24):
Mills, Hello, I am here. Hello, yes, well hello there.
I'm I'm pleased as punch that we're having this crossover
with the six h two Club yet again, no matter
how aggressive it might be, but not as happy on
a sliding scale about our special guest that's joining us, matt.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
I could not be more excited that K two so
has decided to join us on this episode. I mean,
we got guys, we got him himself. He's here with
ceiling space. Okay, exactly exactly. He's so tall, he's so tall.
And his interpreter, his interpreter, Darren.

Speaker 3 (02:07):
The man behind the droid at times.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
Who knew K two was so timid, you know, I
mean he doesn't come like that across on screen, but
you know in their life, as.

Speaker 3 (02:20):
I can point at that, timid would be quite the mood.

Speaker 1 (02:24):
But really, and there's a fresh one if your mouth
off again, and he's ready for John when he mouths
off about this show that we're going to talk about,
which is none other than and Or season two. It
is finished and we are finally going to get a
chance to talk about it before we do. Find us
all over the place wherever you get your podcast, whether

(02:46):
you're listening to Aggressive Negotiations or The six O two Club,
you should be listening to both. So make sure you're
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Of course, you can find both shows on x Twitter.
We've got the six O two Club at the six
O two Club and aggressive negotiations at the Jedi Masters.

(03:08):
You can find both of our networks as well on
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we want to call it. And of course you can
find both of the networks online at either track dot
fm or the nerd Party dot com. And that's about it.

(03:30):
We're going to dive into this episode because we have
so much to talk about in episodes. Yes, I mean,
we have twelve episodes in four arcs which all take
place during a year before the Battle of Yavin. But
before we get there, guys, one of the things that

(03:52):
was very interesting is that, you know, we're all big
Star Wars nerds, and we embrace that wholeheartedly it and
we knew that behind the scenes, this show was meant
to be a five year show, so every year was
meant to be a year, and so every season we

(04:17):
were going to be covering an entire year of and
Or's life as he moved towards Rogue one. Well, they
realized doing season one, this show is taking forever for
us to actually do because of the way that they
were creating it. I would say it's comparable to kind
of Game a Throne style seasons where they've this massive

(04:40):
production and they realized there was just no way they
were going to be able to complete five seasons of
this show. I think one of them may have ended
up dead. Who knows if it was going to be
Tony Gilroy or Luna, you know, just from all the workloads.
So they decided we'll split this this second season twelve episodes,

(05:04):
so we'll have four three part series. And I wanted
to ask you, guys, do you feel like that was
the right decision instead of trying to prolong this into
you know, five full seasons.

Speaker 3 (05:24):
Well, I mean it, I don't know if right decision.
I can I can approach that just because it is
what we got. I'd rather, I will say, I'd rather
we had twelve episodes covering four years. Then here's season two.
We still got a couple of years to go, and
we're canceled because we ran out of money. Like, I'd

(05:45):
much rather they finished the story and do the handoff
than then be upset that it was pard down. Now
what I have enjoyed, you know, twelve episode seasons times
four apps. I would have enjoyed that. I don't know
how they would have fit K two in twelve episodes

(06:06):
of season five because he's apparently very hard to write
about and to insert into the story. But yeah, so
I am in account my blessings kind of manner. That's
just me.

Speaker 4 (06:19):
That's fair enough. I think they could have managed to
do it. I think that it's simply obstinate for the
way any show is approached nowadays, where they're like, oh, well,
we couldn't possibly do that. It's like, honestly, it drives
me nuts. There's so many different ways you can break
it down, and there are so many ways in history

(06:40):
where people have put together really high quality shows in
reasonable amounts of time, and you know, anyway, but without
even going down that road. I mean, you know, you
could have done it an even number of ways. But
you know Darren's point, Yeah, fine, they chose this way
to do it, so you know, like it's just the

(07:03):
way that they chose to do it. So it's like,
what are you going to do in that case? I mean,
do I think that I have the managerial chops who
have shown up and shown them how to do it?
Quote unquote, Probably not, because that's not an industry that
I work in. However, I can also tell you whether
I think that you constructed your playbook properly. Even though

(07:25):
I've never played football, you know, I can look at
the way that the game goes and say, hey, this
season seems like maybe you could have approached it differently.
But at the end of the day, they're the coaches
and they decided how they were going to do it.

Speaker 1 (07:39):
Yeah, I mean, I look at it like this.

Speaker 4 (07:44):
You know.

Speaker 1 (07:45):
One of the I would say just about any fan
of television's frustration these days is that these shows it
seems to take forever for them to get made.

Speaker 3 (07:57):
You know.

Speaker 1 (07:57):
You think about the days when you could create twenty
six episodes of television in one season, and somehow you
were able to do it, and uh, you know, but
at the same time, you know, I know, you know,
when you and Or much more than any of the

(08:17):
other Disney Plus shows, was made much more organically and
and much.

Speaker 3 (08:24):
More more like a movie than a TV show.

Speaker 1 (08:27):
It's created like a movie. Yeah, And and in that
sense again, I think really one of the most comparable
shows on television in the last like ten years that
you can kind of compare it to was the type
of seasons that you know, Game of Thrones was doing,
where it really it has this expansive feel to it.

(08:47):
They are truly trying to create a cinema quality episode
every every episode, and that is like, you know, we
we know the show costs like what six hundred million
dollars or something insanely crazy, you know, just for two seasons.
So I'm I I think I'm right there with you,

(09:09):
Darren in the sense of like, look, if you came
to the decision during season one, yeah, there's no way
we're going to be able to or at least we
don't feel like we could do this for another four years.
Uh and and make this work. I think that this
is a great way to do it. And I think

(09:30):
especially since you know, the Clone Wars helped prepare so
many Star Wars fans for this idea of like art
stories in a longer form storytelling, you know, like those
later seasons where you're getting these three or four part
arcs that all you know, they they subtly connect. But

(09:50):
that's what we're doing here.

Speaker 3 (09:51):
Came back to the just nine days if you want
to talk about arcs, yes, like, yeah, I can kind
of remember arcs resonating in that way.

Speaker 1 (10:01):
I mean, yeah, what is it? Season six they opened
with six episodes all in a row, you know, until
they take back Deep Space nine. So, uh no, I
think you're you're absolutely right, and this is the you know,
it's a it was an interesting experience, and and they
knew still they were going to lead right into Rogue

(10:23):
one and so figuring out then this this idea then
of of what it is that you have to cover
or what is you were going to cover in that
year that's going to be the most important was really
really interesting. So, uh the first arc that we get

(10:44):
is for bb Y and it has three episodes in it.
One year later, uh so Grown Atima and then Harvest
and the uh each episode arc actually takes place.

Speaker 3 (10:59):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (10:59):
I was listening to Gilroy talk about this and he
said it takes place around three to four maybe at
most five days at a time, and so but they
stuck pretty close to the idea that it's about three
days span in the year. And so I wanted to
just ask you we kicked the season off, you know,

(11:20):
we start off really with a bang as and or
Is is stealing a imperial ship a tie Avenger and yeah,
which to me, it was a really surprising way to
kind of start the season. I did not expect it
to start with just this you know, kind of massive

(11:42):
action set piece.

Speaker 4 (11:44):
I mean, yeah, it starts off with that that heist,
and I think the heist is fine. I I like
the way they put it together, and that was that
was interesting.

Speaker 3 (11:57):
Yeah, you get kind of a you know, mini version
of the Aldanni heist where it's but it's one man
on an inside job, very kind of Mission Impossible esque,
you know, to and and you the money is on
the screen like the giant, full built tie avenger, the

(12:18):
you know, all of the backgrounds and areas, like you
feel it it's interesting. I kind of feel when I
I mean, I made a couple of notes for this
season because there's so much that happens and it's hard
to kind of find the chapter mark. So I look
at what was the big standout event of each sees

(12:41):
of each arc, because you know, it's like, oh, is
it the wedding arc or is it the speech arc
or things like that, And I think for me, you know,
for bb Y, you know, yeah, you kick off with
the tie fighter stealing, but it's really I think this
is the wedding arc. If I had to give it
a name, because that's maybe not again, it's not the

(13:04):
biggest thing that happens, but you have you know, well,
I'm talking to myself in circles, but it's there's lots
of things.

Speaker 1 (13:13):
Yeah, yeah, no, I I think I do think Darren though,
that that there's.

Speaker 3 (13:20):
Dance at the end. That's the that's the climax of
the of the city.

Speaker 1 (13:24):
There are three main storylines that are happening, which is
you've got this. You're gonna have the storyline with with
and Or and stealing the shuttle straight in the ship
the tie Avenger, and he's gonna you know, end up
on what we'll find out is Yavin before anybody else
is there really Uh, You're gonna have the storyline on

(13:45):
Mina Raw with Bis and Brasso, uh yeah, and and
hiding from the Imperial Inspectors that have come looking for legals.

Speaker 3 (13:56):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (13:56):
And then I think he rightly pointed out one of
the biggest parts of this story is the follow up
to you know, season one with the wedding between you
know uh Man Mathma's daughter uh and basically a mob
boss's son uh and which she has done, of course

(14:19):
to secure funds for the rebellion. And so those are
the those are the three main stories, and then interwoven
within that you get the story about the ISB being
brought into what may or may not need to happen
on Gorman, which the Empire wants this cow kite that's

(14:42):
in the stratus of the of the planet that it
needs for the lenses of the Death Star, and so
we get you know, or synchronic and with those four
main stories, they interweave all of those, you know, throughout
the season. But I do you think that in some ways, Darren,
what you said, it really does somehow still feel like

(15:05):
it's the wedding arc, because that's SU's really.

Speaker 3 (15:08):
Hard to say, because as you described it, it is
all interwoven. But maybe because it's like the last note,
like when you're playing at concerto, in the last note
you hang on. Like in my mind, that's Mon losing
herself to the dance because she knows her friend is
going to die, and like she's now in it. Like

(15:29):
I think, yeah, the later we get an episode called
Welcome to the Rebellion, but she's this is welcome to
the Rebellion for her.

Speaker 1 (15:37):
Yeah yeah, well maybe that's a good idea though, So
outlining kind of the four stories. We opened up, you know,
with with Cassie in and stealing the tie Avenger, and
then of course you know, he lands on this jungle
moon with the most inept parts of the rebellion we've

(16:01):
ever seen. Uh, and you know, his whole story really
comes about needing to escape and and and try and
get back to to mean around not even knowing what's
going on there. And so I, I, you know, what,
did what did you guys think of this storyline? Because

(16:21):
whereas his story starts off with a bang, I'm not
quite sure that this completely is the most successful arc
of the of the season.

Speaker 4 (16:34):
You've already been mad at me about how I felt
about this opening arc. So I mean, do we want
to retread that here? Do we really want to spoil
the lovely time that you and Darren are having so far?

Speaker 1 (16:44):
I think, I I I definitely feel like because we're
not in total disagreement about the fact that I don't.

Speaker 4 (16:51):
Think quite well sir quite well.

Speaker 1 (16:55):
You know, which is which is great because we were
miles apart.

Speaker 4 (16:59):
But it's quite the trade.

Speaker 1 (17:00):
But I okay, I'll open it up then and say, look,
I think that this is the worst part of the
season in the sense of I don't think that I
really truly understand why we need to kind of set
up maybe how disfunctional the rebellion is and the type

(17:21):
of people it could. You know, people could gravitate towards
it could be completely inept. But these people are so
inept it's kind of really hard for me to watch.
And so I would have appreciated much more if if
they hadn't been such idiots, because I make spending any

(17:45):
time with them really difficult.

Speaker 4 (17:47):
I agree on that front. I think that this arc
is where I knew I was going to have my
challenges with the season, because the worst thing you can
do for me as an audience member is give me
the opportunity enough opportunity to sit there and start nitpicking.

(18:08):
Like you can take any movie. You could take the
greatest five star film. You could take The Godfather, you
could take Citizen Kane, you could take Jaws, you could
take Shawshank Redemption, and you could start to pick it apart.
But the trick is you're so caught up in moving
the way they're telling the story that you don't right.

(18:31):
So that's the whole thing is like people love to
you know, when you start nitpicking stuff. People are like, oh,
well you could do that with anything. Well, yeah, that's true.
But the trick, it's like, it's a magic trick misdirect me.
And I don't think this arc misdirected me enough to
make me not want to pick it apart and say,
there are a hundred ways you could have condensed this,

(18:53):
streamlined this, and told it quicker and gotten to the
point a lot faster, and brought things together in such
a way that it was much more focused. It feels
very disjointed. I think that's my biggest problem with this
is I get the point, I get what they're trying

(19:13):
to do, and they're setting everybody up and oh it's
a year blah blah blah ah, all that nonsense. But
I was bored in this arc largely, and I was
frustrated because of the fact that I was given the
time to sit there and say, you know, if you
had taken these two parts and found a way to

(19:34):
bring it together and streamline it, I would have stayed
in it. And it suddenly felt like they were taking
their time. And this gets back to that question you
opened with Matt. This first arc, I sat there and
I said, oh, this comes across like something they didn't
know how to condense, like because we, like you said,

(19:57):
we all hold on. I'll see Matt's shake his head.
It's not a visual medium, folks. He starts off by saying,
we kind of agree, and now that I'm going into
my complaints about it, obviously I'm wrong, but I'll wrap
it up by saying, yeah, each of these three episode
arcs was supposed to be like a whole season, and

(20:18):
what it comes across in this first three episodes for
me and at other points during the season, was that
there were certain things they weren't willing to streamline, certain
things because they wanted each arc to function in a
certain way, because there were certain things they would didn't
want to let go of. And I just think that

(20:40):
there there were a lot of opportunities they missed as
a result.

Speaker 3 (20:44):
I mean, you could also say, and this, I don't
begrudge this for the whole show, because you can you
can definitely tell certain three episode chunks work much better
than other three episodes us. And so it's like they
put themselves in this box, which I mean, you know me,

(21:05):
I love my constraints, my rules. Okay, we got three
episodes it's how we're gonna tell it. It's gonna cover,
it's gonna be like twenty four, It's is the most
important five days of the year, and everything's gonna happen
right now because we don't want to And I prefer
that too, like and then a month later title card,
and then six weeks later a title card, Like I

(21:25):
think that would have killed the pacing. But I think, yeah,
there are some arcs where it doesn't fit as well.
It sounds like what you're kind of saying, John, is
they don't want to kill their darlings, Like they have
so many chess pieces that they need to get moved forward,

(21:46):
and it's taking us a while to get the board moving,
which again I'm a little more lenient on it as
I'm just kind of sitting here with popcorn for the ride.
But I see your point.

Speaker 1 (22:00):
Yeah, I mean I think I don't feel that that
sense for the overall arc. I only feel that sense
for the one storyline, and and.

Speaker 5 (22:11):
That's but let's pick that apart because because let's let's
let's let's let's pick that part, because because previously you
were saying, like, really the only part of that arc
that you don't like, is you just don't like that
the people are that inept?

Speaker 4 (22:28):
Is that that exactly?

Speaker 1 (22:30):
Yeah, Because one of the things that really helped, I
think was when I was rewatching the season and kind
of in some ways realizing that these rebel cells are
all a interesting microcosm of the stupid infighting that we've

(22:50):
been seeing in the Senate, uh and with the imperial
officers jocking for positions and power, right, and and so
that that they're still susceptible to many of the same
problems that that we've seen, you know, that are actually
going to you know, kind of ruin the Empire in
the end. I mean some as we get to the

(23:11):
last arc, uh, you know, one of the main downfalls
of the empire actually becomes an imperial officer's overreached because
of her own selfishness and selfish desire, you know, to
have the credit for taking down Axis, right, So that's
interesting to me. I I what I think I would

(23:34):
have been more interested in is that if if both
of those cells on Yavin didn't just feel so stupid
and actually felt more like they had a legitimate reason
to kind of have to butt heads. But they just
like truly just come off as like rent A cops

(23:57):
that are I mean just awful and so so.

Speaker 4 (24:00):
But just just to pin you down, that's the only
issue you have with the arc.

Speaker 1 (24:05):
Yes, the rest of this, the storyline on you know Raw,
I think is phenomenal. I think the storyline for the
wedding is exceptional. And I think the storyline that we're
setting up with the Empire is fascinating because in some
ways it's it's a wonderful mirror for what happened to

(24:29):
Cassian's planet at the beginning, Like you know, his he's
he's from a planet that that was strip mined and
ended up being destroyed.

Speaker 3 (24:37):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (24:38):
And so knowing that the Empire is willing to do
that again, you know, this time to utilize it even
more to their benefit, is just to me really fascinating.
So again, it's really just this one storyline and and
and to me, it's like I just need it to
be rewritten a little bit, uh, And I think it

(24:59):
would come off better because as Darren mentioned, and I'm
the same way, I'm just enjoying being in the to
me Season one captured me And I have said this
to you before, but I love marinating in the world
that they've created and just being there like I. So

(25:21):
what they're doing is I don't need it to be
sped up. I don't need it to get to the
point faster, because the point is actually to just be
able to experience the lives of these people.

Speaker 4 (25:32):
I'm not saying I'm not saying faster. I'm saying that
getting things.

Speaker 1 (25:38):
You kept saying that you want to get to the
point quicker, and it's like, that's not the point of
this show, That's not how they're doing it.

Speaker 4 (25:45):
That's not the best point of any story. Is what
what is the point of any story? Any piece of
entertainment that I'm watching make money? Well, there you go, Darren,
that's exact act, which you can't do on streaming, which
is why.

Speaker 1 (26:02):
We to the search for more money, which will be coming.

Speaker 3 (26:07):
Like Guy Fleiegmann from Galaxy Quest, I'm just happy to
be here. So I will say it was interesting watching
the I want to keep saying Harvest like the Harvest Planet.
I know it's Meana Raile, but Uh. In our other
podcast John and I have together when we talk about movies,

(26:30):
we just covered a lot of UH Tarantino pieces, and
we recently did in Glorious bastards, and I got many
similarity vibes to the Imperials, you know, wandering through the
countryside on their little future tank, you know, inspecting the homestead.

(26:53):
Like it was very, very so like you could see
the parallels they were drawing for sure in that with
like occupied territory. And I think that's one of the
benefits of and Or is the you know, the it's
always drawing parallels to history in general and a lot
of But I not to half step back onto Cassian's part.

(27:19):
It kind of felt like they didn't know what to
do with him in this in this arc because it's like, Okay,
this awesome, you know, get the tie, and then it's like,
but we can't have him show up at the planet.
We haven't spent any time at you know, for a
couple of days, because otherwise none of that happens. Like

(27:41):
it's almost as if it would be better to have
all the men aroused stuff, and we don't see Cassian
until like he gets it and then he goes straight
to the I'm not saying we have to cut the
whole job in part, but it's it's a pacing thing,
you know, it's you know, how do you how do
you fit him in? And it's it feels it very

(28:04):
much feels like he is purposely stuck in a corner
with the breaks on, because plot wise, we can't have
him show up too early or we have no threat
on our other planet, which you know isn't the strongest
of writing.

Speaker 1 (28:19):
But well, and I and that's exactly what I'm saying here,
I think is if you can rewrite that, you can
make it make more sense, you can make it feel better,
and it would have even just again, one of the
ways you can do that is what you said, Darren.
You could actually you could have started the season on

(28:43):
mina raw and not really had Cassie and show up
until like the end of that first episode, and that
the end of the right episode is actually you know,
you know, yeah, oh I do too. But I mean,
I'm just saying, like what you're saying is I think
one hundred percent correct, And it would have been more
interesting then because then you don't feel like that thing

(29:05):
where it's like, oh, we're just it feels like a
plot convention, and that's always a frustration when you run
into that. And two, it just doesn't help. I don't
think that the people he's stuck with just feel so
dumb that you're also just frustrated watching them.

Speaker 3 (29:30):
So yeah, I mean I think the first arc is
also hindered. I don't know how you get around it,
but it's also hindered by it's very much a groundwork arc,
like it is introducing planets and cities and situations. It's
the where have our characters been since we last saw them?
You know, unless you have the voice over at the

(29:51):
beginning of a Clone Wars episode like previously on and
or Big Scalen was hiding from the Empire, it's you know, yeah,
I want them to s show us that, but that
takes time.

Speaker 1 (30:02):
I speaking of you know, Me and Arale and the
whole storyline there. You know, a lot has been made
of that storyline, especially with the scene between Bis and
the Imperial officer who tries to rape her. And so
what did you guys think of that story and specifically

(30:27):
this incredibly hot topic hot button. I mean, some fans
absolutely hated it and thought this didn't belong in Star
Wars ever and is the worst thing that's ever been
seen in Star Wars and others. You know, Yeah, but
you could.

Speaker 3 (30:42):
Take that whole paragraph of it shouldn't be in Star
Wars and apply it to almost anything. Fans will say
almost anything that they hate about Star Wars. No one
hates Star Wars more than Star Wars fans.

Speaker 4 (30:55):
It's true, you know. I mean, the thing is, we've
spent so much time on this first R already, I.

Speaker 3 (31:02):
Know not to fast forward. I'm thinking the same thing.
I'm looking at my list and I'm like, I want
to talk about this other stuff too.

Speaker 4 (31:08):
But it's been like thirty minutes, so you know, I mean,
you know, it's people are going to feel about the
way they feel about it. I think pretty much anybody's
reaction to it is just going to be what their
reaction is. I think the ludicrous thing is trying to
shame anybody out of like, you know, feeling one way

(31:30):
or the other about it. All I know is at
the end of that, I was like, well, I mean
I just recently one of my kids, you know, started
watching Star Wars with me. You know, we've been working
through Clone Wars, We've watched Rebels together, went to Revenge
of the Sith in the movie theater and everything, and
there's just no way I can sit down and watch

(31:51):
this with my kid, and that's just not old enough
to be there. Yeah right, yeah, and that's fine, Okay,
that doesn't mean that you don't have a right to
put that in the story or anything like that. But
it's just I this is a piece of Star Wars
I can't share with her. I mean, previous to that,

(32:13):
I don't know that there's anything in the arc that
would have really compelled the kid to watch it at all.
The sense, especially from this first three episode arc, is
one of the arguments that goes back and forth continually
about Star Wars or any other piece of sci fi

(32:34):
or anything like that, is you know what audience is
this for those sorts of things. I'm not coming down
on either side about it, but this show Out of
the Gate winds up feeling like that discussion that's been
had about superhero movies at this point, where people feel

(32:55):
that superhero movies should be a certain way, or they
feel that it should be quote unquote and we have
to see what we can break it down to and
it's postmodern blah blah blah blah blah. This feels very
much like that Snyder verse argument where some people are
going to come down hard on superheroes should be this,
This is not the way superhero should be. And then

(33:16):
for people that it works for, they're going to say, yes, finally,
finally we've got superhero movies that really bring that. I
would simply offer, I didn't need this to know that
the Empire is bad. And I understand that it personalizes
it and it gives a motivation and an arc for
things that happened later in the season, and it's supposed

(33:38):
to add layers to how Cassian feels about certain things.
But I didn't need it to know that the Empire
was that bad. You know, we're talking about a government
that's building a moon sized space station to eradicate entire
planets at a time, I sort of am already there thinking,

(33:58):
you know, these are not the type of people I'm
going to send Christmas cards to. Yeah, and but you know,
does it work for somebody to be like, yeah, finally
that's in start. Okay, you know, that's that's their opinion.
I just I I don't.

Speaker 3 (34:12):
But how do I know evil if I don't see
them kill the babies? You know?

Speaker 4 (34:16):
It's like, yeah, no, we know, But why did I
never get a shot of people on Aldron looking up
screaming out in terror as their planet was incinerated.

Speaker 3 (34:26):
All we heard was ben Kenobi talking about a vague
feeling that's not enough.

Speaker 4 (34:31):
So abstract, so abstract.

Speaker 1 (34:33):
I mean, I I I fall on the side that
I thought that this was completely appropriate for the story.
I think it works for the story. And you know,
I get what you're saying, John, where like the whole
question about Star Wars and what's it for? You know,
I think of what's come out and in the recent

(34:56):
past year about the idea of Lucas's own world on
you know, his Dark Times story, you know, his Underworld series,
and talking about how it was going to be much
darker and sexier and all those kind of things than
anything he had ever done in Star Wars before.

Speaker 3 (35:13):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (35:14):
And so you know, we don't we have no idea
what those scripts look like, but you know, just that
the fact that that's that's the way that McCallum described them, Okay,
that's really interesting to me. And and so I also think,
you know, the the Clone Wars showed that there's a
real dark side uh to Star Wars that we've seen
play out in that show. I mean, you know, there's

(35:37):
a real dark side in in uh you know episode three, Uh,
you know, so, I mean the movie is very dark,
so uh. But one argument that I would say, you
know too, that the whole scene is, you know, there
there is something to be said for seeing the very

(35:59):
this role evil. You know, the death of billions on
a planet that you just watch destroy that you've never
met or whatever. Yeah, that it's very ethereal and we
all get that it's bad, but seeing that this is
the type of badness that happens all over the Empire

(36:19):
is I think really impactful. And I think it makes
the evil of the Empire much more personal to all
of us in that sense, and so therefore I think
it's completely legitimate and valid to be seen. And it
works specifically for this story that they're telling, which is
all about that evil of the Empire, which you know,

(36:43):
completely chimes in with the what they're about to do
to Gorman and you know, so yeah, I.

Speaker 3 (36:53):
Will say there's also in this arc to kind of
wrap it up there, there's also point and deaths any Chark,
And I'd say the two that I think of in
this one is like your name but his his buddy
from Feryx, like oh, Brasso like that was like, again,

(37:14):
you want to imagine Brasso like being on Javin and
part of the cause is like, Nope, that's as far
as he went. And then the other I think of is, uh,
you know, it's off screen and it's highly implied, but
the take hold and again and or and when I
say Android, I mean the series as opposed to Cassian.

(37:36):
You know, it doesn't waste deaths of main characters like
they're they're pushing our other characters forward in different ways.
So on the death meter we got two. I mean,
there's been more dead, but those are the two I
think that stand out for most in this arc.

Speaker 1 (37:53):
Yeah, I kind of love that he became Fredo U
to use the Godfather reference. I think I thought that
was great.

Speaker 4 (38:01):
You know.

Speaker 1 (38:02):
And yeah, I mean the whole wedding arc was just
I think phenomenal. And in that sense, I love what
it does for one Mathma because it's like there's no
going back for her at this point, right the moment
that she knows that her friend has been killed, like
she's in it completely. There's no returning for her, which

(38:27):
is why I thought, you know that the end with
that dance where she just is like she kind of
breaks with the pressure that she's been under for the
last you know, fifteen years of the Empire or fourteen
years of the Empire and being in the Senate and
now this it's just like it became too much. And
so she has this one moment where people aren't gonna

(38:49):
look at her too weird if she just like completely
loses it, and then she has to pull herself back
together for the rest of the season and the rest
of these years. And I just thought that was great.
So okay, well, like you guys mentioned, we've talked a
lot about Arc one, and we got Arc two with

(39:10):
three B B Y and we really kind of continue
the story, especially you know, with with Gorman really comes
to a head, uh, the storyline with the Empire, uh,
and and and kind of making something of the serial
arc with him and Drea and a little bit of

(39:33):
a closing in I think on even Luthen right, and
and some of his machinations kind of backfiring. So uh yeah,
where were you guys with three B B Why?

Speaker 3 (39:45):
Yeah, I feel it's it's almost easier to talk about
the mini the arcs of character in each season versus
like what happened in the first episode versus the third episode,
because it's all together, like you could almost watch it,
you know, as a movie. They're really four movies exactly.
And yeah, I mean I loved the bits of Saw

(40:07):
we got, you know that I think is like all
the parts that Saw's partisan hangout was what I think
we wanted from that first arc of like, oh, this
is a different rebel group and they're functioning differently and
their leaders going off the deep end. But yeah, and

(40:28):
I know we'll get there. But for me, this arc
culminates with the the art gallery scene where they're trying
to get the listening device out and credits there and
you know, chewing the scenery like he always does. But yeah,
we didn't talk about Cyril and Deirdre very much, although
we got some great bits in the first movie I'll

(40:50):
say movie, but you know, with his mom and all
of that. And I think the thing that I took
away the most from three BB I was, Oh, here
are these actors playing these characters and they get to
jump time. And I know in some interviews they talked
about that, like that's a very rare thing. People don't

(41:11):
usually get to revisit characters and act as if a
lot of time and a lot of events have happened.
It's usually like, oh, it's tomorrow. So that was fun
to watch all of the way they portrayed that. And yeah,
like you said, like Luthen's starting to unravel a bit,
and you know, Saws starting to go off the deep end.

(41:35):
But this one you also really see Claia like step
into her own, like she is really taking the reins
of Luthian cell I guess we'll call it. But what
do you think of this arc? John? Only only way
to go up from mark one?

Speaker 4 (41:55):
So yeah, it's fine. I still you know, I wasn't
nuts for it. I mean, I'll never throw shade toward
Forrest Whittaker. Saugerera love him in the role. I think
he's great. I often wished I'd had more of him
because he was truly interesting. You know. It's not it's

(42:18):
not like I hate the arc, but it's Yeah, it
didn't light me on fire. It it's fine, you know,
That's basically how I felt about it.

Speaker 1 (42:28):
Yeah, I mean I really enjoy this arc, specifically because
you know, John, you and I talked a lot about
what in the world, you know, when we did our
watch through all the episodes like the serial thing, this
has got to go somewhere, right, and to actually see
them make something of that. And what was most interesting

(42:50):
I think was to watch him and Deirdred probably the
weirdest relationship ever on screen and Star Wars and and
partially just her. I mean, she's truly kind of psychopathic,
uh you know, the forgive me forgetting forgetting the actress's name.
But she talked about this idea of she studied psychopaths

(43:15):
and and female psychopaths. She said specifically most often don't
actually do their own murders or terrible things. They actually
weave other people into their web that do it for them.
And so it was fascinating to watch her kind of
basically do that with Cyril. So they have the world's
most twisted relationship that you've ever seen, right, Like he's

(43:38):
getting everything that he wants from her, but at the
same time, she's using him the whole time, you know.
And and so I thought I really appreciated that we
finally we really made something of that character because I
think it helps even the season one rewatch and and
and like you were mentioning Darren, you know, and and John,

(44:01):
like it's fascinating to kind of see, you know, Saul
Guerrera who we we we kind of see his own descent,
you know, in in many ways, Uh, there's this there's
this weird mirroring that happens between him and Luthen, as
in throughout this series, they're both kind of going to

(44:23):
descend into their worst angels of their nature, right, which
is going to end up destroying them in the end. Right,
Saul will live on into Row one, but Luthan will
meet his end by the series. And and part of
that is because he can't change, you know, and neither consult.

Speaker 3 (44:44):
But he knew that from the beginning. I mean, one
of the greatest sketches from season one is Luthen's you know,
I'll I'm paraphrasing slightly because I don't remember it exactly,
but it's basically, you know, I worked towards the sunrise.
I know I'll never see you know. And yeah, and
in a way, like we all knew that, like we
all knew Luthen was not going to live past this season.

(45:08):
It would it would betray his character to be like Okay, Luthen, yay,
come hunker down, You're gonna make it to Hof, It's
like why he he barely would survive on Yavin. He's
and I like how they kind of get into that
where it's like he's building and sacrificing, but even within
the rebellion, there's no place for him outside of his

(45:31):
es cell on Coruscant.

Speaker 1 (45:34):
Well, yeah, because in some ways this whole arc really
feels like a lecare story and in that you know,
he's the spy Master who you know, he has to
be in control of everything. So no, I completely agree
with you, Darren. And lastly, just were for this arc.
One of the big things that happens is, you know

(45:55):
Bix has been struggling obviously with her trauma because of
Doctor Gorst, and we get and or helping her find
a way to get her revenge, and get her revenge
she does. So how did how did you feel about
that whole idea of allowing her to basically destroy her

(46:18):
demons literally?

Speaker 4 (46:22):
I mean, there's I can understand either way. I mean
the thing is, I I hesitate to wait into it
because I know that my takes are all wrong with
this show. But I'll just venture gingerly out there and
we'll push you. Don't worry, No, I'm not sure the
message they're trying to send at that point is largely

(46:45):
where I go because there's you know, it goes back
to the whole argument of like, well, Anakin was hurt
and wronged with the Tuscan raiders and what they did
to his mom. So are we making in our meant
that is slaughter of the tribe was correct because they
were all guilty of it, right, But at the same time,

(47:07):
I know it's a very distinctly personal sort of thing.
And are they trying to get her to a point
where it's like she can close that chapter and move
on now, Like I'm just not sure what they were
trying to say.

Speaker 3 (47:21):
That's an interesting point, though, John, because without the force
and talking about the force and the light side on
the dark side, which you know is said every five
minutes in normal Star Wars, that's true, you have her,
you know, killing the source of her you know, terror,

(47:41):
and never is it like, oh, Bis, why did you
do that? You're going down the dark side? PD, Like no,
there's none of that, Like that that doesn't even cross
anybody's minds. It's it did kind of feel like you know,
eating your cake and having it too or whatever. That's
saying is but where yes, we want to show the

(48:06):
impact of her sleepless nights and her trauma and her
struggle and all of that, but we also want to
be able to tie off that arc. She kills him,
and now we're never going to have to talk about
that again. You know, it doesn't become a through line
really past this point. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:25):
I mean, I would say at least at least the
way that I read this is that you know, and
Or comes to confront Luthen and he is furious about
him messing with Bis in Dix's state, right, And I

(48:48):
read this as one of those things where Luthen is
doing what he needs to do to keep and Ork
and Bix in the game, and he needs Bix fixed,
he needs Bix well for and Or to keep going there,
and therefore, you know, uh, they get their revenge on

(49:12):
doctor gorse To. Yeah, I mean I think that's you know,
the question you raise of the the morality of it
is is excellent, you know, because that is a question
that that we should ask. And you know, what we've
seen that this this person has done and what we

(49:33):
learn I think that makes this kind of interesting. They
don't necessarily even know but the the Empire wants to
expand this person's research, uh, so that they could basically
use this torture on anyone and everyone. Uh And so
you know, when we're talking about the morality of it, Yeah,

(49:53):
they kill this guy, but he's about to inflict this
on who knows how many more beings in the galaxy,
and so by taking him.

Speaker 3 (50:03):
Out, greater good argument.

Speaker 1 (50:05):
Basically, yeah, exactly, So again, I think I think that's
the kind of the beauty of the show, right. The
whole point is to make that discussion of of what
you know, you referenced it, Darren, is the whole speech
that Luthern gives. I am forced to use the the
tools of my enemy. And we see that over and

(50:27):
over again of that happening, right. I mean, one of
the most blatant examples of that is the repurposing of
K two s O literally of tool of the enemy,
you know, and and so yeah, he's funny and everything,
but you know that's who he was. And so I
find that to be one of the beauties of the

(50:49):
show is that it doesn't make these questions easy, and
it makes you as an audience have to wrestle with them, right, and.

Speaker 4 (50:58):
It would be nice to see the characters so with
them from time to time, outside of Luthen giving a
speech in the previous season.

Speaker 1 (51:04):
But I but I think that that is happening all
of the time with these characters. I mean, Luthan himself
is is wrestling with even Claya is wrestling with this.
We see that in her backstory. We see and Or
wrestling with this. We obviously see Bix wrestling with it
because she's not only dealing with the torture that she suffered,

(51:28):
but she's also dealing with, you know, having having to
defend herself and take a life and what that means
for her in like we see Santa dealing with that
in the in in all that she's been called to
do in her relationship with Vell, in.

Speaker 4 (51:45):
The fact that she comes back very correctly just in
time for Vell to die in a very clever.

Speaker 1 (51:51):
Scentate to die.

Speaker 4 (51:52):
So whatever, Yeah, yeah, okay, so oh no, I mix
up Vell and scent it.

Speaker 3 (51:56):
You're right, we know we knew what you met. And
you know she's definitely in the key person that died
this arc.

Speaker 4 (52:04):
Just yes, key person that died this arc. Sure, yes, absolutely,
But again it's you know, the thing is this is
this is one of the things that makes it tough.
Is I know that I'm apostate among certain circles of
Star Wars fans for not being in love with every
decision that this show made. But you know there, you know,

(52:25):
I if I go back to that, I'm like, Okay, well,
this feels like another thing where if it had been
given the proper amount of time for these two characters
to develop further on screen, instead of saying, hey, remember
that person, Yeah, we're going to kill her now and
that's going to make this one sad that you care
about too, and it just it's like, oh, okay, well

(52:46):
we'll throw that one in there too, cool like, And
that is I think just a product of the fact
that they were like, Okay, well, we were going to
spend four years telling all of this, so you know,
let's make it all happen and we'll just we'll get there.

Speaker 3 (52:59):
Yeah, And that's true. I think that story does suffer
the most from the compression of a of a twelve
episode year into a three episode here you go.

Speaker 1 (53:11):
Yeah, I mean, I think I think the beauty to
me of this show is that it works because the
actors sell it and if it doesn't work for you,
you know, Okay, I'm sorry it didn't work for you.
You know. So the next to last arc of the show,

(53:34):
the penultimate arc two bby is I mean, I guess
it could arguably be where the most action kind of
happens in the in the season, as everything that's been
building on on Gorman comes to a head. We get
a lay Miz moment on on on Gorman basically, and

(54:00):
we have the Javert and Jean Valjean moment. Of course
one doesn't know who the other is. And so yeah,
I'm really interested to just hear about, you know, what
you guys think about this one, especially since yeah, this
is this I mean, one might even argue that this

(54:23):
is almost kind of the culmination of the season, and
and the next arc is almost like a coda that
just leads us into Rogue one.

Speaker 3 (54:33):
Yeah, I could see that. I mean, Episode eight and
nine are like, in my opinion, one of the best
two episodes of this season with the Gorman massacre and
then and it's like, oh my gosh, that's that's that's
like the that's got to be the high point. And
then you have Mathma's speech and extraction which is just

(54:53):
even more like they just keep the train running. They
had an event out here in Hollywood. I feel I
kind of feel for these actors because for like a
month and a half they've been on the and Or
train and they've got to be exhausted because they are
just doing interview after interview after I mean, they were
doing a fan event and then like two days later
they were in Japan for celebration. So but they had

(55:16):
an event and we got to watch Welcome to the
Rebellion episode nine, you know, in a fairly large screen
kind of theater set up, and man, I mean, you
know how it's ending, but you're holding on to the
arm rest of your chair because they're just trying to
get out of the setate the noose is closing, you know,

(55:38):
Mathama has given her amazing speech. So yeah, I think
many people would think this is the high water mark
of the season. And you even get a bit of
a respite at the very beginning, where Bix and Cassian
it's been a year, so they've lived on Yavin for
a year, they've been together, they're not on Coruscant, and

(55:59):
so it's like, oh, things are kind of getting a
little better. The rebellion's a little more cohesive, but because
it's it's always I have to wrap my head around
the timing a bit because it's slightly odd in how
they do it where they say too B B why

(56:24):
But this is really within that year at some point,
because next week it's right at the end. It's not
a year before the Battle of Yavin, it's like a
week before. So this is roughly ish a year year
and a half out from Yavin or the battle. But yeah,
it gosh, yeah, revisiting, re deconstructing the massacre scene, you know,

(56:51):
Cereal's death, keep key death. I know, I got to
point him out, but yeah, there's just there's so much
in these three episodes, especially eight and nine, which I
never thought I'd say episode eight and nine were the
best part of Star Wars. But yeah, they found out,

(57:12):
they got me, they got me, and oh, not even
talking about the ending. I mean, I feel like I'm
doing all the talking. But the very ending, we get
introduced to K two to KX units, you know, from
sitting down with Cyril to uh, just causing the Gorman massacre.
As they are unleashed on the populace and they're terrifying

(57:38):
they are. I mean when I walk around with k
Tso the puppet, he's very intimidating, Like he's seven foot two,
he's full size, he's huge. And you know, when I'm
walking in a con, I don't know why people get
out of the way. I don't know why. Maybe it's
because they're afraid he's gonna pick them up like a
stormtrooper and check them over a railing. But it was, yeah,

(58:00):
it was obviously, I mean, my favorite character. I was
gushing over seeing him, although it did give me slight
pause because as cool as it was, seeing the KX
units like they are committing atrocities like it is yea,
you know, they are brutally killing people like with body slams,

(58:21):
so you know, to not not to sidebar. But after
episode eight, the Gorman massacre, I'm part of the Fible
first Legion and we do you know, stormtroopers and dressing
up and all that stuff. And I have a set
of Stormtrooper armor and I had a interesting sentiment after

(58:45):
the episode where it gave me pause about wearing my
Stormtrooper armor again because of the of the scene. And
I'm not saying like I'm never gonna wear it I'm
not saying I went to that that far, but there
was a time, and there's some online communities of Legion

(59:08):
members and other people were sharing they had that same sentiment.
Not everybody. It's not like one hundred percent of the Legion,
you know, through their armor in the trash, but a
lot of us had discussions of wow, like it. You know, yeah,
we say we're bad guys doing good but you know, yeah,
I'm not saying it's drawing the parallel of like people

(59:30):
who dress up in like Nazi paraphernalia or anything, or
like there's a it started to pull back the curtain
a little bit of like, oh, these are really bad people.
And and I think, like I said, it was a
pause and you can still kind of focus on you know,
Star Wars episode four and always missing the mark and

(59:53):
knocking your head on the door and like, you know,
the the comical Stormtrooper that we're more used to. But
it was just interesting that other people who have the
costume had similar interactions. So, yeah, this was a Whirlwind
three episode.

Speaker 4 (01:00:12):
Well what about you.

Speaker 3 (01:00:13):
John, did you feel this was a high water mark
for at least for the parts of the series.

Speaker 4 (01:00:20):
Yeah, this is the part where I got invested in
the season. You know, it was definitely definitely in terms
of storytelling, I got more interested in what was going on,
and I you know, I thought that it was, you know,
pretty well put together. The serial resolution was interesting with

(01:00:41):
the way that he buys it, and you know, that
sort of thing about how you know, he had been
obsessing about this thing for years and regarded you know,
Cassian as the architect of all his woe and neither

(01:01:05):
of them actually knew each other. You know, that's a
statement in and of itself, but you know, you know,
and of course, you know who doesn't love the mon
mothmas speech and getting her out of there right, so
you know, obviously that's going to be a payoff. And
that's that's the sort of thing where you know, this
arc feels more organically a part of what people signed

(01:01:30):
up for when they heard about nandor show.

Speaker 3 (01:01:34):
I could see that and just think of the first
seven episodes as a slow burn. And because you have
to build, you can't just start with the Gorman massacre,
like you would not be nearly.

Speaker 4 (01:01:44):
As good, right, It wouldn't be as effective if you did,
you know, regardless of the bumps getting up there at
least starts to come together at this point, you know.
And and uh, you know, like I said, like the
way that they have him extract her from Corussant is

(01:02:06):
well done. You know, some of it gets to what
I don't care for in the some of the production design,
but that's again that's just sort of like descending into
those particulars. But you know, just the way that it
plays out as well put together.

Speaker 3 (01:02:26):
Well and we get notable death of her driver. And
and it's interesting because I've heard some people say, oh,
maybe he had heard the speech and he was kind
of like maybe starting to turn and realize, but at
that point he's so it's like, no, sorry, you are
in the box of the ISB plant and you cannot

(01:02:47):
get out, Like you even if you changed your mind,
he's gonna shoot you. And we get the awesome, you know,
gift of mine mother's reaction to him getting shot in
front of her. But but back to Cassie in for
a second, because Matt I wanted your thoughts on you know,

(01:03:08):
his we talk about his death and the who are you?
I mean, it's the episode title, but I almost feel
like we've moved past this was my view, like we've
moved past the whole cat and mouse, Like he doesn't
talk about Cassian at all. He's he's on the ISB train,
He's on his woman train, like he's that's the new Cirrial,

(01:03:32):
Like he doesn't really care about class, you know what
I mean, whatever you're gonna call that relationship, but I
think that's way more interesting his interactions with Deirdre, with
choking her with like, I mean, he's like losing his mind,
and so it almost felt like and then for one
moment he was season one Cyril again when he sees

(01:03:54):
and Or and he loses it, but like only for
that moment, I feel like that's actually his care. But
that was how I kind of viewed it. Did you
see it the same way? Did did Cyrel kind of
evolve into ISB cereal? Or was he always looking for
Oh this is helping advance my like Dedra is constantly

(01:04:15):
looking for acxis no matter what. But I felt like
Cyril at least wasn't shown constantly looking for and or
not like season one.

Speaker 1 (01:04:24):
Right, No, I I think you can say.

Speaker 3 (01:04:27):
One hundred percent right, I won't hold it against you.

Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
No, no, no, I I think for me, the thing
that happens in that moment is that there's a there's
a lot of things that kind of quickly spiral for
Ceil One. You know, he's an idealist, right in the
sense of like he truly kind of believes in this

(01:04:51):
this empire. He believed in this idea. He's helping law
and order, you know, he's helping the galaxy and and
and at the same time, right, it's also the thing
that he's using to help himself, right. And the moment
that happens there is that it's he he loses it

(01:05:14):
all the woman that he is in love with. He
realizes he's been used the entire time, and he's been
used to destroy these people, and and what he finds
is that he's being used for an atrocity in this way, right,

(01:05:35):
And I think he was.

Speaker 3 (01:05:36):
Connecting with him, he was connecting with the Gorman. He
was still getting information. But there's little hints of like flirtation.
And because he's always seen himself as a man of
the people, you know, yes, even in his course at
you know days of course that core corporate, his corporate days.

(01:05:56):
But yeah, when they're both oh man dedrend Zero, that
is such an interesting Yeah, tragic story because you know
when when deeeders all like it's going to be perfect, Sarah,
We're gonna get to go back to Corrousan and live
the life we want, and you're just like, what planet?
I know, what planet? But what planet are you living

(01:06:18):
on right now? Because you are so out of touch
both of you. They are not communicating, they don't know
each other's love language. They need counseling so bad.

Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
But well, yeah, I mean the point of this is
really interesting, and I'm glad you brought it up, Darren,
because I think it really does bring something interesting to light.
You know, we really truly kind of see the way
in which, you know, the way that's the parenting of

(01:06:51):
somebody can have a massive impact on who they are. Right,
Cyril is obviously looking for acceptance in all the wrong
places because he has this terrible mother, right who who
is who is awful? You know, and and and is
nothing but critical and yet she since he is her

(01:07:12):
entire life somehow, Right, Deirdre has grown up in a KinderCare.
Who knows exactly how all the math works there? You know,
I like to think that she was actually in a
republic facility which turned into and.

Speaker 3 (01:07:27):
That's what I see in and then she just right,
I don't get.

Speaker 1 (01:07:32):
And then and then the fascinating thing is like, you
have this and Or character, right, who is is rescued
from a planet before it's destroyed, grows up with a
loving father and mother, and who he turns out to
be is very different than these other two characters, and
so in many ways there's strange mirrors of one another.

(01:07:56):
And so but yeah, that moment that that like Cyril
has lost everything, and so instead of them doing this
kind of like cliched moment of a redemption arc, for him,
he snaps the moment he sees and Or and and
and And of course it makes sense for him to

(01:08:18):
snap when he sees and Or because he then can
put all of his rage and blame on and Or
that as if it's his fault, right, And then you know,
the the moment that he then realizes that and Or
doesn't even know who he is, it's like it's it's
the greatest moment of injustice in his life, right, And

(01:08:41):
so yeah, I think that that's an incredible moment. I
mean this this I I would I would posit that
this arc is one of the greatest things that Star
Wars has ever done for me, I mean just personally.
It's it is the way in which the tensions built
is so perfect, and again it feels so lame miss

(01:09:04):
in that sense. And and to watch the Empire just
destroy this planet and and what's crazy about that, right
is that you know they're actually destroying this planet because
they need quote unquote need something from this planet, you know,
and then we're gonna watch them in and you know,
a new hope destroy a planet just because they can.
They don't need anything from all there on. It's just

(01:09:26):
because they can to send a message. And it's like
it's the ratcheting up of the terror of the Empire
here I think is just incredible. And then, like you mentioned, Darren,
that it leading into mon Mathma giving that speech of
all speeches. Uh, you know, we thought Luthen's speech was
the end all, be all of and or will know
bon Matha was like hold my.

Speaker 3 (01:09:48):
Beer, hold this whole show.

Speaker 1 (01:09:51):
Yeah, She's like hold my uh chandrill and drink here
with the with the fizzy thing in it because I
got this. And yeah, the the the exit there is
is pretty phenomenal. So uh, we we have the last arc,
and really the last arc boils down to the fact
of of Luthan getting the information from Lonnie about the

(01:10:14):
Death Star because he's tapped into Dedra's comms channel, which
apparently she was also put on a signal chat that
she shouldn't have been on UH and and then uh
she just stayed there, but then she didn't realize that
she had been piggybacked on UH and Lonnie is the

(01:10:37):
most unsung hero of the Rebellion ever because without him,
this show doesn't happen uh and and so it really
becomes about getting that information. Then too Reavin with you know,
Luthan dying and Claya having to to to to finish

(01:10:59):
the job, we learn about her, and then of course
it's it's all about UH leading right into Rogue one
and so final final arc. What did you guys think?

Speaker 3 (01:11:10):
I mean, I know you said and I kind of
agreed that. Oh man, after last last chapter, you know,
this is like a coda, But she's that first episode,
you know, that is the In that episode, so much happens,
like you have the confrontation between Deidre and Luthen, you

(01:11:31):
have the whole break in at the hospital, which is
a huge sequence. You know, you have you know, Luthan
killing Lonnie, you know, all sorts. You have the whole
the fact that Cassian isn't even in this episode, like
it's all about and you get the flashback of Luthen
and Kayla and their history and story, you know, blowing

(01:11:53):
up things on the boo like that. That episode feels
like we have oh man, we only got three up
was left? Okay, well, let's put all this in like
they're gonna use every minute they have because they they
it's a race towards the finish line. And then then
you're watching Dedra like Crumple under Krenik, like the finger

(01:12:16):
on the Forehead scene. You get K two's glorious hallway scene,
which is one of my favorites of the entire Star
Wars saga, as he clears away and uses Imperial officers
as riot shields. But and then yeah, and then it

(01:12:37):
leads to the Jeddak hyber Urso not the best title
of an episode, gonna admit, but it's like it's a
temp title. We'll think of something better and then we
never did. But you know that one, I'd say definitely
that one. It's the coda it's the from the slow
mocush walking of Cassian too. You know him wearing the

(01:12:59):
same jacket he is going to wear on the first
scene of Rogue one that we see him in. Like
that is hours, if not a day before Rogue one.
Like we are right there as we're landing the I
say plane, but we're landing the shuttle. So yeah, it

(01:13:19):
it's a coda. But man, you're buckling up the whole time.
But but I don't know, what did you What did
you think, John? Did this feel like a coda three part?
Did it feel too jammed? Like we have so much
to do because our backs are against this wall of
Rogue one that we have to dock at.

Speaker 4 (01:13:41):
Yeah, I I mean I thought the final arc was good.
I felt one of the best parts of it was
I finally got the crenic that I thought would have
worked better and probably originally existed in Rogue one, because
we've all we all know that that was constructed very differently,
and this, this cretic comes across like the crenic that

(01:14:02):
was originally there that got neutered a little bit in
the final cut of Rogue one, where it was like
there was some missing menace to him, and it was
nice to have the menace added so that, you know,
obviously it's constructed so that when you see Rogue one,
he has a little bit more bite to his character,
so they obviously use this opportunity to address that, and I,

(01:14:26):
you know, it made him infinitely more interesting. Obviously, who
doesn't love seeing a backstory on a character like Luthan.
I found, intentionally or not, that the fact that if
you look at the what's referred to as the European
cut of Highlander, Claya's origin story of how she meets

(01:14:49):
up with Luthen is basically the same, not one to one,
but virtually the same as how Rachel and the Highlander
get to work together and she grows up with him
from childhood. Which if they did that intentionally, then kudos
because I picked up on it. If they did it unintentionally,

(01:15:09):
then we obviously all watched the same movies growing up,
So either way it works. But you know, I liked
I like the way the final arc came together. I
wasn't necessarily crazy about specifically how it ended, just it

(01:15:30):
just the the specific sequence of events, And I think
probably what I was reacting to was after a certain
time marker. In the last episode, I said, Okay, I
know everything that's coming up here because they have to
put this character in this shot, in this this character
in this type of shot, and it just you know
it thought it fell along those lines, and that that's

(01:15:52):
not a negative or a positive. It's simply that's the
constriction that they were in, right, and so you know again,
but it's the box you're in. To borrow a phrase
from you and you know. So the final arc works well,
and I think from my perspective, it works well specifically

(01:16:14):
because Krenick is he gets I think he really gets
to shine in this arc. You know, he finally became
that really up close and personal bad guy that I
wanted to see.

Speaker 3 (01:16:30):
It's interesting. I mean, we're not diving into Rogue one
because we don't got time for that. But if we
had had this level of Krenic and Rogue one, I
think we would have. You could have gone without Tarken.
You wouldn't have need another big, bad shadow like because
Krenick is terrifying like him, you know, his influence on

(01:16:53):
the bureaucracy. He has a ton of power. But yet
we still get subtle moments like with him and and
was it gors the No, No, that's not the name.
Part of Gas, yes, they say it's got a big,
long name, and I was trying to remember, but yeah,
him and part of Gas like their scene, Oh my gosh,
like where they kind of drop the facade for a

(01:17:15):
moment and they're talking using first names of like hey,
hope you make hope we make it through. What's gonna
happen because they both feel like the end is near?
And I mean to even part of Gas is death,
which is such a subtle death but is shot amazingly.

Speaker 1 (01:17:40):
I think, I think, to me, that's as you guys
were talking about Credicos just kind of thinking about, you
know him specifically is the character and and you know
he has throughout this whole season, right, you know, he's
he's come off is as this incredibly arrogant and powerful character, right,
And part of that is because he's behind the scenes

(01:18:01):
on the most secretive, top secret thing that the Empire
has been working on for like, you know, who knows
how many years. We actually don't know quite how many years,
but it's been a long time. Part of Gast even
mentions like the fact that we've been able to keep
this secret for this long is amazing. Like, this is

(01:18:22):
the most off the books, super top secret thing that's
ever happened in the history of the galaxy, and the
fact that we've you know, made it last this long
is amazing. But I think what actually is amazing is that, yes,
he can come off like this in this episode, but

(01:18:43):
by the time we reached Rogue one, the secret, the
cats out of the bag. And as as Qui Gon said,
there's always a bigger fish. So yeah, Kronic looks like
the big guy here. The next guy on the totem
pole that that's only surpassed by Vader and the Emperor

(01:19:06):
is Tarkan, right, and and so it's that thing that
where that they've I think actually they built in kind
of perfectly to this season to help explain why Kronich
doesn't get to be the character he is here because uh,
you know, we always thought Dedro was great too, but

(01:19:27):
like she's taken down every peg because she's thrown a
Narkiina by the end of this, you know, because she's
the one who takes the biggest fall part of Gasp,
you know, realizes that the the rebellion is inevitable and
that it basically the empire's on its last legs, even

(01:19:48):
though it doesn't know it, and he's like, yeah, I'm
done with this. I'd rather commit suicide than live through
whatever punishment they're gonna dole out. And and then you know,
I mean, obviously the rest of this, this, this, this,
this whole arc is really just about setting up Rogu
run right to get us to the point where we're

(01:20:10):
going to get there. I I found the most interesting
part about this is that the the two B B
why one b B why are the first introductions that
we get at all of spirituality and the Force through
the Force Healer, which I loved and I thought were

(01:20:30):
really great additions. Because uh, then this this episode kind
of what ends and or kind of doing the montage
walk right is byo are Ghana telling him may the
Force be with you. And in these last two years,

(01:20:52):
it's like there's been this slow progression of the Force
kind of finding its way back into the story, which,
of course, you know, row one, it's going to be
there because of Jin and her parents, especially her mother,
you know, with the Kyper crystal and her belief in
the Force in some ways, and then of course it
bursts back onto the scene when Luke comes on the

(01:21:14):
stage right, And so I kind of love the way
in which Gilroy was able to kind of work that
back into the Star Wars saga and show that it's
as the rebellion is growing. So is this idea of
the force that has been squelched out by the empire,

(01:21:35):
or at least they thought they had squelched it out right,
but it can't help but still exist. And so I
really love that. And this arc I thought was like,
to me, the most moving thing is watching the backstory
of Luthan and Clia. And what's interesting is Clia is

(01:21:57):
very much a mirror. We don't realize this until that episode,
but she's a mirror for and Or right and Or
gets parents who love him raise him.

Speaker 3 (01:22:07):
Well, Cleia.

Speaker 1 (01:22:11):
Gets Luthen, who raises him like a revolutionary from from
the moment that he has her.

Speaker 3 (01:22:20):
But this arc we also see that she's kind of
also the string poler, Like, yeah, he's kind of We've
always thought he's the boss of boss, but she kind
of is in a lot of ways.

Speaker 1 (01:22:34):
They feed off each other in some ways. Yeah, yeah,
I agree, I agree.

Speaker 3 (01:22:40):
So I wanted to ask John, you know you're talking
about the Force Healer. And you know, I think one
of the big things for and Or is everyone is like, hey,
look star Wars without lightsabers and Jedi and Force, like
it can be done and it's still good. Did you
miss those aspects, Jean Or did you wish that there
had been more Force religion of Star Wars or was

(01:23:07):
it okay to take a break from that? No?

Speaker 4 (01:23:11):
I mean, obviously, so long as the the story's well told,
who cares? You know, it's you know, it is what
it is, and it doesn't matter whether a character is
constantly bringing it up. We're supposed to be in an
era where people are more cynical about those sorts of things,
So I understand why there wouldn't be you know, emphasis
on it. It makes sense for these characters. They're not

(01:23:33):
people who have lived with Jedi around them for their
whole lives. They're not people who have necessarily seen that.
We meet Han Solo in a New Hope and he's
skeptical that the Force even exists, and so you know,
it's fitting for the time period, as it were, for
people not to be necessarily you know, all in on

(01:23:55):
the Force. I mean it, it's one of those things
where you can also debate it out because you know,
de Donna says in a New Hope, you know, then
get to your ships and may the forest be with you.
So obviously there is some sort of spiritual element strongly
at play with you know, at least the the older
generation that is populating the base, because.

Speaker 3 (01:24:19):
I had no idea. You never broughtably exactly.

Speaker 4 (01:24:24):
I was talking about to Donna. I wasn't talking about myself,
but but I'm saying like, it creates a you know,
it creates an interesting thing because everybody's cynical, and then
we're going to jump right into you know, Rogue one
and and a New Hope where you know, you get
exposed to people who are more attuned to it. So

(01:24:48):
it's you know, it doesn't ultimately to me matter. You know, again,
as long as the story is well told and you know,
all those sorts of things, I'll plug into it. I
can say that I have spoken with somebody directly, a
guy that I work with, I respect him very much,
and he couldn't get into the show because in his perspective,

(01:25:13):
he doesn't want to watch Star Wars without Lightsabers and
Jedi because to him that's what Star Wars is. And
I was talking.

Speaker 3 (01:25:21):
That does exist. He can watch Star Wars with Jedi
and Lightsabers. It is out there that's it didn't and
and Or aired, and.

Speaker 4 (01:25:30):
He was he wasn't claiming that it did. He's just
saying that, like he's not going to plug into and
Or and because from his perspective, and you know, I
mean it's you know, everybody's got their different opinions and everything.
But while I was talking about it with him, I
asked him to expound on it, and he's like, well,
I can get non force stuff with these sorts of
things in other shows. He's like, I, you know, if

(01:25:52):
I'm coming to Star Wars, I'm there because I want
that thing. You know. It's like I go to Burger
King for burgers, and.

Speaker 3 (01:26:00):
I go to.

Speaker 4 (01:26:02):
Although I'm not advocating, I'm not advertising for Burger King.
I go to X Franchise for whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:26:06):
Although if Burger King wants to, you know, support our show.

Speaker 4 (01:26:09):
Right there you go. But you know, and I go
to uh Blaze Pizza because I want pizza and I
don't mix the two. And so it was his perspective
that like I go to Star Wars for those things
because I can get these things elsewhere, and so I
don't he didn't see a specific benefit to that, and
you know, of course I was like, okay, I like,

(01:26:31):
I I understand what he's saying. And I just said
to him, I was like, well, you know, I mean,
let me know if you ever come back to it.
But he stalled out it like the second or third
episode because he was like, once he saw that he
wasn't going to get that, it wasn't of interest to him.
And so it's like, you know, I think that you know,
there's going to always be a contingent that's like, well,

(01:26:52):
why would I watch it without that? I'm not in
either camp. You know, I'll watch anything that's that well
constructed sort of thing.

Speaker 1 (01:27:01):
So yeah, I mean, because we both like the bad Batch, right,
and there's barely any of that.

Speaker 4 (01:27:09):
Stuff in that, but there is, you know, there's gung
Gem and there's you know, there's questions of the force
and stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (01:27:16):
But I mean, but it but like those are like
you know, one episode, two, three episodes basically, well, it's.

Speaker 4 (01:27:24):
Much closer, much closer in the timeline to Revenge of
the Sith, which is, you know, I mean, the Jedi
are open and hugely active up until that moment in time,
at which point they go deeply into hiding. And so
it's like, you know, you know your point, Darren. You know,
there's stuff going on that's being told in this same

(01:27:48):
general time period between films where there is addressing why
the Jedi aren't as as a parent, and you know,
there's been plenty of material that talks about you like
any regime the Empire would change the curricula so that
there would you know, be no you know, there would

(01:28:10):
be no revisiting of history, the books would be rewritten.
So yeah, makes sense.

Speaker 1 (01:28:16):
Yeah, No, I think it's a great question, Darren. And
and and you know, I think that does make for
one of the most interesting parts of the series in
that sense of like truly seeing how much the Jedi
have become, you know, kind of a myth, a legend
and almost forgotten because of the work of the Empire,

(01:28:37):
you know, and so well, you know, I mean as
any series of television twelve episodes as big as these are,
you know, we could talk for hours, but I think
I'm really interested, you know, to see where we end
up with the ratings, and so Darren as the guest.
We're so excited that you were here. Where do you land?

Speaker 3 (01:28:59):
Then?

Speaker 1 (01:29:00):
Only that you do not give half stars?

Speaker 4 (01:29:04):
Is this a skill five?

Speaker 3 (01:29:06):
I forgot we're rating.

Speaker 1 (01:29:07):
This, but yeah, five, we'll do five.

Speaker 3 (01:29:11):
Yeah, I mean I give it a five for what
it did, for what it accomplished for you know, I
want to rewatch it. I want to. It has some
of my favorite characters in all of Star Wars. And
I'm not just saying that because Katie is looking over
my shoulder like he's really mad. But no, it's is
a perfect No. Can I still give it a five

(01:29:33):
if it's not perfect? Yes? Because I enjoy it. I
will rewatch it. It expanded the universe in an amazing way,
and I hope we get more, not more as in
and or season three, but more as in more flavors
of Star Wars. I think Star Wars can only be

(01:29:55):
greater if we get different flavors of things coming out,
whacky stuff, fun stuff, serious stuff, droid stuff, animated stuff,
all of it. You know, it's a great time to
be a Star Wars fan.

Speaker 1 (01:30:09):
Yeah, yeah, what about you, John?

Speaker 4 (01:30:13):
I mean, the last six episodes are basically the season
for me, so it like I I can't see myself
revisiting the first six episodes. Really, they just never clicked
for me, and you know, be that as it may.
The back six were you know, they had bits, you know,

(01:30:36):
they had interest. There were specific moments that I really
enjoyed that I thought were good and poignant and worked
very well. So basically, since i'm splitting at halves, he's
that way out of five, I'll give it a two
and a half because there's a half. No, Darren, I
give half stars. I don't. I don't care what you say. Well,

(01:30:56):
that's just because Darren's really really hardcore about this half
star nonsense.

Speaker 3 (01:31:00):
But I'm not.

Speaker 4 (01:31:02):
I'll give it two point seven five stars or two
point two three stars if I want to. Darren, you
judge my star as a look of judgment, right there,
K two can judge me all that he wants to.
I don't care. But yeah, so since i'm split, it
has these I'm going two and a half, which is
half of five.

Speaker 1 (01:31:20):
Yeah, you know, I like what you said, Darren, and
I really resonate with it, which is you mentioned how
you want more Star Wars flavors, right, and I resonate
with that as well, you know, I don't want all
of my Star Wars to be and Or and and

(01:31:41):
to me, John, you and I have talked about this
many times on the six two Club and on aggressive negotiations,
But one of the things that I think the Clone
Wars really did for all Star Wars fans is to
prepare us to be able to see all different flavors
of Star Wars and many different types of genres, and
and Or is one of those, right Uh. We both

(01:32:04):
also really enjoyed Skeleton Crew, totally different flavor, right uh.
And So I don't I don't need all Star Wars
to be in this vein. I don't think it needs
to be. But for me, uh, and Or, seasons one
and two together I would consider an absolute masterpiece. Season

(01:32:24):
two specifically, I think, like you, Darren, I have some
quibbles with this season, especially with that first arc, but
beyond that, in those quibbles, the rest of the stuff
completely carries me. And this is an absolute, stone cold
masterpiece of Star Wars storytelling. And I love it, and

(01:32:46):
I can't you know, I've I've watched it twice now,
and in all honesty, I'll rework, I'll rewatch and Or
I think many times I love it, and I'll be
really interested now, you know, possibly to maybe revisit uh
ROW one and talk about it, maybe in light of

(01:33:09):
and or at some point, because I think that the
show now recontextualizes, obviously in the best way that movie.
And so. But we're so glad that you joined us here,
and so, Darren, let everybody know where they can catch
up with you and see your incredible work on droids

(01:33:33):
like K two, s O and L three and your
cost playing and I mean, you're just a builder extraordinary.
So where can people find you?

Speaker 3 (01:33:44):
Oh? Thanks, Matt. Yeah, they can find me at doctorSci
fi dot com. I have a links to my socials
as well as pictures blogs. I probably need to get
back to updating my mission list. It's probably a couple
of years out of date. But yeah, I post a
lot about droid creations and events that I'm going to

(01:34:04):
a lot of fun playing in the Star Wars playground.
And it's definitely true that if you build it, you
get to do cool stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:34:15):
And John, where can everybody find you?

Speaker 4 (01:34:17):
Well, you can find me is Cassel Junkie out there
on the social networks of your choice. If you wish
and you can of course find me over on the
Nerd Party network hosting a show with Darren called house Lights,
where I get to expose him to movies he's never
seen before and get his reaction to different horror flicks,
his delicate self and how he processes them, and threatened

(01:34:41):
to burn Tristan's car on occasion because he deserves it.
And you can find me, of course on Aggressive Negotiations
on the Nerd Party which is a Star Wars podcast,
and I co host with you, Matt Well.

Speaker 1 (01:34:53):
I got to say people should listen to house Lights
because listening to you guys talk about movies and you know,
the threats that go back and forth are phenomenal. It's
a good thing that you guys all live thousands of
miles away from each other. But it's a delightful show.
So everybody should check that out. You can find me

(01:35:13):
all over social media under the name Matt Rushing Serial two.
Of course here on the network out of TFM, outside
of the six O two Club, I've got tons of
shows going on with Chris Jones as we're talking about
Star Trek, and so please to check all of that out.
But thank you so much, for joining us and John.

(01:35:35):
You know, I feel like I hear some chimes of
the Jedi temple. Maybe it's time for meditation. I don't know,
but I think it's time to close these negotiations.

Speaker 4 (01:35:44):
Indeed, these negotiations are closed, and y'all come back now.

Speaker 3 (01:35:49):
You're here, m hm.

Speaker 1 (01:36:11):
Join the revolution, Join the Nerd Party.

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