Love, Loss & Finding Connection in Later Life

"It's a couple's world." - Dr. Gloria Horsley

In this heartfelt episode of Aging Today, host Mark sits down with Drs. Gloria Horsley and Frank Powers, Presidents of Golden Dating Doctors, to explore the realities of love, loss, and relationships in our later years. From the challenges of widowhood to finding new companionship, they share insights from their book, Open to Love—a must-read for seniors navigating dating after loss.🌟 

Key Topics Covered:
✔️ Overcoming loneliness & embracing new connections
✔️ The evolving nature of intimacy & communication
✔️ Online dating for seniors—risks & rewards
✔️ The emotional journey of second relationships
✔️ Building strong support systems in agingIf you're navigating grief, love, or dating later in life, this episode is packed with wisdom, encouragement, and practical advice to help you move forward with confidence.

Learn more about Drs. Horsley and Powers:https://www.goldendatingdoctors.com/

Thank you to sponsor: Royal Hospice Oregon

Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and share! ❤️

#AgingToday #SeniorDating #LoveAfterLoss #Widowhood #GloriaHorsley #FrankPowers #OpenToLove #Relationships

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Do you find that that may be true for all of us as we progress through life every,

(00:05):
you know, instead of being married for lifetime? Maybe we should be married for 10 years and then
you re-up again. Yeah, well, it's a reason why people sometimes, in second and third marriages,
say, you know, I think I've done a better job of picking the person that I guess someone
now much more compatible with the other. And now the podcast we're together,

(00:37):
we discuss proactive aging on your terms, connecting to the professional advice of our special guests,
while creating better days throughout the aging process. Now here's your host, Mark Turnbull.
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another lively discussion on aging today. We are the
podcast where together we explore the many options to aging on your terms. You can find aging today

(01:04):
and our past eight years of programming on our website. All you got to do is go to agingtoday.us.
That's agingtoday.us. And I want to say thank you for all of you that have been following us over
the past eight years, without you, this podcast could not be possible. And it's really important for me

(01:26):
to know what your questions are moving forward on the aging process because we tackle everything. We
want to bring aging to the forefront, bring it up on top of the table, and we're going to address
every little aspect of aging. Well, I know a few things in the short term that I've been on this

(01:48):
earth for the past 67s, one years, was that I've cleaned is that I don't like being alone. And I
don't think we're hardwired to be alone. In fact, I think if you go back to the biblical story of Adam
and Eve, you know, God created Adam. And then he realized that Adam was alone and he so he created

(02:10):
Eve. And he didn't create Eve to be subservient. He didn't create Eve to be above or below, but right beside
walking together. And as we traverse this earth. And I believe that. And I think our guests believe
that just, you know, I'm not sure if you believe the biblical story, but here to join us in that

(02:31):
conversation about not being alone, and especially moving into our senior years. And as we traverse this
earth, you know, things happen and our spouses leave us for whatever reasons, whether it's divorce or
death. We have wake up one morning and not only do we find ourselves suddenly senior, but we find

(02:55):
ourselves suddenly alone. And you don't have to be alone because that is what Gloria,
Horsely and Frank Powers are going to be addressing. They've written a book called Open to Love the
Secret to Senior Dady. And so we're going to have a lively discussion. Welcome both of you to
aging today. Thank you. Thank you. We're happy to be here. Yeah, we're excited about being on.

(03:20):
Yeah, I'm excited to have you too because one of the things that I appreciate about all of my
guests, but especially you too that have traversed this earth a little bit longer than myself is that
not only do you have a lot of knowledge, but with that knowledge is wrapped in all kinds of wisdom.
And I love wisdom. Wisdom is the art of living life skillfully. That's what wisdom is all about.

(03:48):
And so you've learned that and you are prepared to share with us some some of the nuggets on how
we can live our lives not alone. I think we're still learning it. Yeah, as we go, you know, yeah,
you do learn on a regular basis. I'm I'm never too old to learn. I think that's important. I'm
85 and Frank is 82. You're 82. I'm 81 until I know, but I feel 82. That's great. That's great. Well,

(04:23):
so the way we start out all of our segments is we talk about, you know, not so much what's in your
wallet, but what's in your story? We want to know the, you know, what brought you to for your paths
to cross because you didn't start out life together, but you went you're at the tail end of or
hopefully not too far down the tail end, but towards the end of your lives, you've crossed paths.

(04:50):
So tell us a little bit and let's start with you, Gloria. Ladies first and tell us a little bit about
what's in your story. Well, I was married. Yeah, as we were in my age, I was just turning 21 and I was
married for 60 years to the same man. We had four children and he passed away four years ago of

(05:19):
a staff infection after and he'd had a number of back surgeries and health issues as he got older.
So I'd been through some health issues with him. And also, I think it's one thing I like to mention is
that my son was killed in an automobile accident many years ago, 40 years ago, and I have a foundation
that deals with grief and loss. So I wasn't unfamiliar with the world of grief, loss and recovery.

(05:44):
I do think you have to look at your background in how you respond at an older age to grief and loss
because when my husband died, one of the things he said to me, he knew that he was had his blood
count was going south and he said to me, Gloria, when I die, you're going to be with somebody else.

(06:06):
And I'm like, oh, no, no, no, I'll never be with anybody else. We were married. He said, you will be
which was kind of an interesting permission, but go on from that,
been married for 60 years and I got into a grief recovery group. And when I was in the group,

(06:26):
because I'm a therapist, I've been a therapist for 40 years, and I did.
What kind of a therapist? I was a marriage and family therapist. I'm also a clinical nurse specialist
in psychiatry and I also have a degree in psychology. So, but so I kind of knew something about the whole
world of grief, loss and psychology and all that. And so I said to myself, okay, my husband died.

(06:52):
What would I tell my clients? And I said, what I would tell him is to get some support
that peer support, particularly I feel like is really important. So how am I going to get some
support? So I called my local organization, I live in Palo Alto, California and I called them,
it's called Cara and said, hey, Jim, who is the head of it that I've known for years. Look,

(07:18):
I feel like I need to get into some therapy because I, but I don't think you're going to be able
to find a therapist for me. And he said, well, let me look around. And he's, he got a guy who actually
had had a child die and who counseled other therapists and had a wife die. So it was like, wow.
So I got into a group with Cara and I met a guy in the group named Steve and Steve was a golfer.

(07:45):
This is only after Frank, yeah, it's going to have been dead for only about five months.
And I started golfing with him every single day. So I never started golfing through grief.
I actually wrote an article. So I'm golfing with him every single day. I never, I don't think I
would have gotten any relationship that soon, but I golfing with him every day finally after about four

(08:11):
months, he just asked me if he could move in with me. And I said, you know, why not? So he moved in.
And after I had been with him for about nine months, it was Christmas time. And I went to Hawaii with
with my whole family. And it was about 27 people that all went together in real houses.

(08:33):
He was in the while we're whalming for him, I think. And he was like, I was staying in Hawaii for
a little bit longer. And he said to me, he sent me an email. I mean, a text and said, I want you to
know I'm moving out of the house. I'm out of here. Yeah, he does it. It's too much. And then he
ghosted me. I guess we should have talked about it. And I didn't even know what ghosting was. So I

(08:57):
got ghosted. So I'm in Hawaii and I get COVID. And I am so angry. What year was that when you were
in Hawaii? What year was that? Was that 20? 19? That was four years, three years ago. Yeah, three.
Because I was in Hawaii. The reason I asked is I was in Hawaii with my mom and dad. And they were,

(09:19):
they were, I think at that time, 90, eight, yeah, about, they were 90. And that's when the pandemic just started.
In fact, my mom and I, we believe my mom and I got COVID while we were there in Hawaii. But nobody knew
what it was. They didn't even know what to treat. But my mom went, had it end up going to the hospital twice.

(09:41):
I'm like, and then I went, I woke up one morning at, I heard in the middle of the night and I said to
Christina, I can't breathe. I can't breathe. And I wasn't feeling well. And she says, you're going to be,
I'm going to need to go to the hospital. And I never wanted to go to the hospital. And she says,
I just suck it up, but I'm, so I went back to bed.

(10:04):
Well, it would be probably a little bit later than that because COVID had been around
for a while. But anyway, I decided to write a book for widows because I learned from my experience
and for what happened to me that I've been given some pretty bad advice for the past 40 years to
some widows, which was don't do anything for the first year. Don't do this, don't do that. And

(10:32):
it is kind of rule of thumb for therapists to say, don't make any big decisions for the first year.
We love to say that. And I made a ton of decisions. I ended up living with a guy. I ended up getting ghosts.
You know, all these things happened to me. And I realized that you have to go with survival.

(10:52):
You're trying to survive. And you're, you're just going to go with what you, what you can get up in
the morning and do and what you need. Yeah. And what's not, not destructive. So you're saying that
all of the advice that used to give to your, your clients, you, and you did the exact opposite.
Exactly. And as a result of that, now, do you adhere to that to this, to this day that you would not,

(11:17):
if you were active in therapy, what would you say to somebody? I would look definitely at their
total circumstances. What's their past history with grief and loss? How do they understand it? How
do they frame it? How, what their age is and what get into it later that I didn't have time. Frank
and I didn't have time to court for a year or whatever my kids expected me to do. You know, you've got

(11:44):
to look at the total and complete person. You know, women are widow. The average age of widowhood.
And people don't realize this is 57. Yeah. And for a minute, 67. So, you know, you're saying,
just a lot of differences. And for me, I was at the time, 80, when my husband died. So, you know,

(12:07):
you've just got to look at circumstances, but there's just no rule of thumb. And having people tell
you to wait for a year, you know, it may work and it may not. But you have to really trust your
own judgment about it and be aware of what your needs are. And I feel, and we'll, Frank, we'll talk a
little bit. We'll talk a little bit about how important it was that I had been in a relationship

(12:28):
before I met Frank. It made me feel much more comfortable actually that she was only a year and a half
out. And really, in a sense, had already been in a relationship. And that she was, I was really
appreciative of how angry she was about it. And I thought, Oh, wow. Okay. That's good. I like pretty

(12:50):
good now. So anyway, I decided I'm sitting there and I decided I'm going to write a book for widows
because I want to talk about all the things I've learned, you know, going into a therapy group,
what I liked about it, what I didn't, you know, the whole thing about widowhood. And I thought, well,
you know, if I'm going to write a book on widowhood, I've really got to do a chapter on online dating.

(13:13):
Well, I never, ever thought about online dating. So I just go on and Google online dating and I get
silver singles. I sign up. Yeah. And I met a guy that Dave who I met in Arizona. I set up a date with him.
I went to stay with my sister in Arizona for the winter. As she's, uh, it's a single, the worst. And

(13:38):
so I went to stay with her. So I was going to go from Hawaii to Arizona. So I, you know, put in
Arizona is my location. And I met a guy named Dave. I set up a coffee with him when I got back. And then
and then Frank got a second one. And he was a second person that I signed up to go to pop you with when
I got back. And we took a little negotiation. I'm like, I wanted to see him write a, you know, I

(14:03):
wanted to meet him and get on with the process because I'm going to write my books. I got to really,
you know, get this thing on the ground rolling fast. And the first thing she says to me when we meet
is saying, you know what? I don't want to mislead you. I'm only here to write a book. I look in her eyes
and I said, I don't think so. I think this is research. I don't think so. I know.

(14:27):
Yeah. So anyway, I got back to Arizona. I met Dave and he spent his whole time talking about
his surgery he'd had. And I'm like, I don't know with these two guys. I look pretty good. Yeah.
So the moral of the lesson is, don't be the first. Be the third.

(14:48):
Come across much better if they've had a bad experience before. You know, Frank and I have talked about
it as a therapist. If I met somebody who'd never dated before and had had a loss, loss, loss,
I might be like, I'm like, are they ready? I don't want to, you don't want to be my therapist.
I know. I want to carry someone through. So, Gloria, what did you learn about yourself? You know,

(15:16):
as you were going through the ups and downs of, you know, going through grief, going through loss
and all the things that you used to say clinically in, you know, the office to your clients,
you were doing the exact opposite. What did you learn about yourself that was kind of revealing?

(15:41):
I kind of learned that I was a very stronger than you think and that you'll get through it.
And there are people that will help you.
You have to accept that help, particularly in finances and business and things like that.
Because you got that emotional side that you need to be able to nurture, you need to be able to cry when you need to be able to cry.

(16:08):
You need to be able to leave the room when you need to be able to leave the room.
You need people. You need people to be there for you.
Yeah. And allow them to support you.
And yeah, you have to say yes.
You know, can I do this for you or and you have to say can you do this for me?
Could you drive me to the airport or could you come over and help me with my computer or my problems?

(16:30):
You know, you've got to be open to having people come in and you do need care and to be taken care of.
However, on the other hand, you also need to look good.
You know, I did.
Yeah. I needed to look strong.
Well, and being a professional in psychology, you were probably pretty confident in who you were.

(16:53):
And you've had a lot of experiences through other people's experiences in life.
So you were very confident.
But you then all of a sudden you wake up one day and now you're alone and you're vulnerable.
And that must have been a huge change in the way you look at things.

(17:16):
Yep. Being a lot.
I'm not a loner kind of person.
And yeah, I was happy to get in the group and to meet people and and to get involved with Steve and to go golfing with him every day.
It was very healthy.
It was.
You had to go in and get out and do something and cover was going on.
Well, his wife had died two days after my husband or before and his wife had Alzheimer's for years.

(17:42):
So because of that, he had a little bit of a trajectory.
He knew she was ill.
She chose not to eat.
She had Alzheimer's and she chose to die because she made her choice.
So he'd been through a lot, but that being said, he really wasn't ready for the relationship.
And I, you know, not your family.

(18:02):
No, he ended up having a nervous breakdown.
Yes.
I did.
It afterwards.
Yeah, because he said he hadn't we talked to him and he said he hadn't really greets his wife when he met me.
So, you know, they're coming together with other people.
It's interesting.
But I found my one-to-one counseling really good.

(18:23):
And that was really, really important to me to have somebody that I could talk to once a week.
And he would listen to me.
And he didn't really make that many suggestions.
He would just listen to, you know, what I had to say.
And I told him one thing I said, I feel too good.
I feel like I should be having a nervous breakdown.

(18:46):
It should be sadder.
I guess that's one of the things, Mark said I really found out.
And maybe it's because of my age, but I worked with a lot.
And I said that I think having my son die made a difference.
Because I worked with a lot of widows.
This is their number one first big thing that's ever happened to them.
So I like to say this about it.

(19:10):
Having my son die was like going to Mount Everest without oxygen.
Having my son die was like going to Mount Everest with oxygen.
I knew the trip.
I'd taken it.
I knew I would live and I knew I would be happy again.
Yeah.
And I did not know that the first time.

(19:30):
And I don't think you know when for the big losses,
could you ever be happy again?
Are losses like almost any other experience,
the more you have the better you get at dealing with it, I think?
Yeah.
You also, you know, there are health issues.
I mean, I knew that also.
I knew I absolutely had to take care of myself physically.
I was fully aware of that.

(19:51):
It seemed too many people go south.
Yeah.
Who had had losses.
Caretaker syndrome is really true.
And I'd had caretaker syndrome from taking care of my husband.
So I really was very, very aware.
If there could be one thing, I would say to people who are in grief,
and particularly spouses, make sure you take care of your own health.
Because people die within the first couple of years.

(20:13):
of a spouse's death.
So it would have to happen.
Yeah.
No, it's preventable.
Yeah.
So Frank, what's in your story?
Well, I came from a totally different perspective.
I was divorced a year and a half before I went back online.
And I was in a position of kind of ending my career

(20:35):
and not knowing what I was going to do.
And I had retirement ahead of me.
And I thought, oh gosh, do I want to stay in this house
and do all this maintenance for this?
Or do I want to go into a senior community?
Because I thought, no, senior community, I think being a male,
I'm probably in a good position.
It's two to one in senior communities.

(20:56):
So I'm sure it's two to one.
It's not five to one.
Yeah, well, it's 10 to one.
I knew I was on the right side of the system.
So that was--
Yeah.
So I thought, OK, well, maybe I'll go to a senior community
and I said, no, I met my wife online.

(21:17):
Maybe I should try this again.
It was pretty successful.
Even more than one wife online.
[LAUGHTER]
Yeah.
So I decided to go back online.
And then saw Gloria's profile.
And I said, wow, this is a powerhouse lady.
I want to meet this lady.

(21:37):
Then I met her.
And she was one of the few people that
looked better than her profile picture.
Yeah.
The problem with online dating is the profile pictures
are usually 10 years before.
Well, I didn't know to do anything,
but take a camera and take my picture.
Yeah, that's exactly it.
I honestly was very refreshing.
Yeah, yeah.

(21:57):
Well, and the rest of the profiles
that you saw, Frank, were at the same woman,
but they were in their 20s.
Yes, exactly.
Yeah.
So it was really refreshing.
And then all of a sudden, we meet.
And Gloria was so amazing because she was a newbie.

(22:20):
And I had been on before.
So I knew a little bit of the informal rules of dating online.
And she didn't do any of them.
First of all, normally, you just go out for coffee
the first time.
You know, you know, you do that.
But I gave her the option of coffee or happy hour.
And she chose happy hours.
So I said, oh, wow, a lot of confidence this lady has.

(22:43):
OK.
So we met for a happy hour.
No, I love it today.
And we had such a wonderful time.
And I was teasing her, you know, using this old metaphor.
I said, I said, well, you want to come up
and see my etchings because I'm a sculptor too.
So I thought that would be a funny line.
And the first thing she says, oh, yeah, I'd like to see them.
And then she says to me, oh, you know, my car is in a shop.

(23:05):
Do you mind giving me a ride home?
Oh, my God.
First time I meeting her.
Wow.
Frank did have a Frank.
You know, that's one nice thing about the internet.
I had already stalked him on the internet.
Yeah.
I had a website that is there.
So he's also a sculptor.
And he had, I knew I was going to go see his sculptures.

(23:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So how about boy hair confidence really set out?
I mean, how much did the--
the two of you as therapists play into you connecting?
All very much, though.
You know, we have kind of a philosophy.
And it's in the book that when you're 30,

(23:48):
you really like a person to be different, opposites, a track.
And you like the difference in whatever.
And then you spend the next 30 years trying
to make them like you.
As you get older, it's really much more important
to find someone who's more similar to you
because it makes it so easy.
You don't have a lot of issues they have to work out.
And for us, you know, coming from the same field,

(24:11):
knowing the same people in the field
and having this connection really made it easier.
So I think the familiarity of finding someone who's
more similar to you is an important issue
as you get older in terms of dating.
You don't want to spend a lot of time
trying to change the other person.
Yeah.
And when you were describing Gloria earlier

(24:34):
about you were writing a book and you meet Frank and Frank Skang,
I don't want to be the subject of your book.
And it reminded me of the movie with Diane Keaton
and Jack Nicholson.
Do you know that movie?
I can't think of the name of it right now.
That's right with that.
It's a great movie.

(24:54):
Oh, yeah.
I have to watch it.
Check it out and just Google Diane Keaton and Jack Nicholson.
And she was a writer.
And she--
Yeah, I thought it thought for me and that.
What's that?
Didn't he have a dog and he was their neighbor or something?
No.
No, this was different.
So they were a movie.
So Jack Nicholson is dating her daughter.

(25:18):
Oh, yes.
That's right.
I remember that.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a great movie.
But anyhow, I was just thinking of that
when you were describing your situation.
One of the things that's been really interesting
Mark is the difference between divorce and--
now I joined this group.
I meet this guy in a grief group.
And I say to my family, oh, I met this guy in a group.

(25:42):
I met this guy.
I'm dating.
We're golfing together.
And they're like, well, where did you meet him?
And I say in a grief group and everybody says, oh,
that's OK.
That's great.
And then I meet Frank.
And they say, oh, what about Frank some background?
And I say he's been divorced.
And they're like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.

(26:02):
I had to pass musters, sometimes.
You do kind of get a pass when there's a grief.
They want to--
Divorce you, you're problematic.
Yeah, you talk about loneliness.
At least you've had a death.
People want to go to dinner with you.
And you know, not afraid of you trying to steal their husband
right away.

(26:24):
So as therapists, and I don't know if you guys consider
yourself fixers, most men are fixers.
They want to fix the women, or maybe it's the other way around.
Women want to fix the man.
Did you wrestle with that at all?

(26:44):
Being therapists also--
I'm sure at that age--
how do you approach a new relationship
and you look at people and you go, I'm going to fix that?
I mean, I like everything I see, but there's things
that need to be corrected.
Well, Mark, you know, she told you the story about Steve.
So she tells me the story about Steve.

(27:07):
And I think, oh, OK, well, here I could be the good guy.
You know, I'm not going to go certain.
I'm not going to do all these things.
So I already had a role.
Oh, OK, well, I won't do any of those things
as Steve did, of course.
But you had your own stuff that you had to put up with me.
Oh, my God.
Well, her daughter right off the bat kind of said, mom,

(27:32):
we think this relationship is going too fast.
So from very beginning, she was confronted by that.
And I had-- I come walking in from doing therapy,
and they were doing a podcast with their daughter.
And Gloria says, you talk to him.

(27:54):
I said, you're right.
Talk to him.
Well, I was still in therapy mode.
So I said, well, Rebecca, what can I do to make you
feel more comfortable?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Therapist arrives on the thing.
Meanwhile, I'm in show shock.
I mean, whoa.

(28:14):
To tell you the honest truth, Mark, I don't think--
do we have high expectations of each other?
I mean, Frank is who he is, and I know what he does.
And he has some habits that I don't like.
Some of them I ignore, and some of them I comment on.
I don't really lower the toilet seat that was off.
[LAUGHTER]

(28:37):
Well, you need to get what I got my mom and myself,
and for my wife, Christine also.
But I got them bad days.
Where the toilet seat rises and closes all by itself.
But yeah, that solves the problem right there, Frank.
[LAUGHTER]
That's really annoying.
I know.

(28:58):
Now, one of the things that we've got going right now
is that I have to plan all the social events.
And I said to Frank, you know what?
We've just got together.
I got to get better.
I get you get better at that.
Yeah.
And then you said, well, I'll do a couple of things a month.
I brought my stepdaughter in.
Yeah.
As an activity.
As a stepdaughter here.
And we're having a ball with her.

(29:19):
And she and her boyfriend play guitar,
and they're going to do an event for us.
And you know, it's--
But there are-- I think that we cut each other more slack
than we would if we were 20.
We often say, and I think it's really true,
that we would have met in our 30s.

(29:39):
I don't think we would have been compatible.
It's really now, after all life experiences
and whatever and what we've gone through,
that we're much more compatible.
And we get along so much better about both of us.
I bet-- we both said that.
Yeah, we both said that.
In the 30s, we were different people.
And I don't think we would have been as compatible.

(30:01):
Yeah.
No, absolutely not.
Do you find that that may be true for all of us
as we progress through life, every--
you know, instead of--
instead of being married for lifetime,
maybe we should be married for 10 years
and then you re-up again.
Yeah, well, it's a reason why people sometimes

(30:21):
in second and third marriage just say, you know,
I think I've done a better job of picking the person,
or I guess someone I'm much more compatible with, yes.
Did you know that loneliness is one of the major health
problems today?
The average age of widowhood is 57 years old
for women and 65 years old for men.

(30:43):
This leaves many potential years of living
without a partner or companionship.
Being open to love can broaden opportunities
so you don't have to be alone.
This, did you know, segment was brought to you
by this week's guest and sponsored by Royal Hospice
Oregon?
Well, wasn't it Jackie O'Nassus that said,

(31:03):
the first time I married for love is the second time I married
for money.
And the third time I don't remember with the third one.
For companionship, maybe it was companionship.
Yeah, that's a good point.
You know, it's just a couple's world.
And it's really tough out there to be lonely.
Well, you know, people who are in relationship

(31:26):
tend to live seven years longer than people who are single.
And so it's, like you said in the beginning,
it really is more natural.
We're social animals.
We need to have connection with someone.
We don't generally do well alone.
And so it is a couple's world and you do live longer.
And I think most people are happier

(31:49):
even if the relationship isn't perfect.
Because relationships are not perfect.
But it's so much nicer to cuddle up with someone.
Pelotalk is absolutely the most wonderful way
to deal with the frustrations of the day.
There are so many nice things about being in relationship
and connected that are just healthier, emotionally and physically.

(32:12):
Well, that being said, I know I have a lot of single women
who are older who say they won't get into a relationship.
They don't want to.
And they're happy.
And you know what?
If you love your dog and you are able to get enough community
in your neighborhood and with your community,

(32:32):
and make those connections and get out, it's doable.
There's no question.
And women tend to do it better because they have closer relationships
and guys tend to be a little more isolated
and a little less ability to share
and be connected with other men.
And I think that that's something women do better than men.

(32:54):
I find that interesting.
I mean, you guys are both psychologists or therapists.
And I find that women, you know, they tend to be more social.
They tend to be more relational than men, men, or more isolated.
And yet I find it interesting how as we age,
men are definitely afraid of being alone.

(33:16):
And yet women can handle being alone in general better.
Well, and that doesn't, how do you bring those two together?
Well, I think they look and sound like and they talk like they're doing well.
And I'm not sure that that's really how well they're doing.
Certainly, then people came in to see me, men who are older.

(33:40):
You know, they would kind of take off that cloak of,
hey, I'm just fine, I doing great being single.
And you've found underneath that they were pretty needy
and they were feeling really isolated and alone.
And isolation and loneliness is the number one mental health issue for people who are older.
Well, I have to say that men oftentimes marry with them seven months.

(34:06):
Yeah, because they needy.
And what do they needy for?
Are they needy for physical needs?
Making care of in most cases,
being in high spirits is that they want someone to take care of them.
And they feel really scared about being alone, but they don't know how to deal with it.
So the way that they do it is latch on to somebody right away.

(34:30):
Yeah. And so as a woman, Gloria,
I mean, would you want to be involved in a relationship where the man is needy
unless, unless you're hardwired that way where you feel like, you know,
that that's something you want to do is meet the needs of another human being?
Well, I have to tell you sometime you got to remember what I just told you,

(34:53):
men tend to marry within seven months.
So the women that I work with, some of them I say, you may have to shepherd a guy through some of this.
You've got to look like what he was like before the loss,
because he will get back to that.
But you may have to help them through some grief and loss in particular.

(35:13):
They're not even aware of it.
Yeah. And you know, they're women who
maybe been single for five years or something.
They didn't meet this great guy, but he was talking about his wife who died,
which I can't tell you how many times they complain about that.
And we talked to him about, look,
when you're with him and he's talking about his wife all the time,
you need to stop him.

(35:34):
Yeah. You need to say, hey, you know, I really like you.
I like our relationship.
We need to focus on me too, you know, and ask for what you need.
Don't let them get away with being all that needy.
You've got to look at them.
They can step it up.
We have one cartoon in the book.
I don't know if you remember seeing it,
where the guy is having dinner with his date,

(35:56):
but it's at his wife's grave.
Oh, yeah.
I see.
I'll take your quiet, ready.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That was a great cartoon.
So since you brought that up, let's take a dive into your book.
It's called Open to Love,
the Secrets to Senior Dating.
Did I get the title correct?
Exactly.
Okay.

(36:16):
So, Gloria, the impetus was with you.
You were writing the book and Frank comes along.
And, but I noticed that Frank's got his signature all over it.
How then did you, how far were you into the book?
And yet, how then did you dovetail the two sides,
the two perspectives?

(36:37):
I had, you know, just roughly put down a table of content.
Yeah.
And she was just talking about widows.
And so when we got, we said, well,
I think we should talk about the relationship.
I said, what are you writing with me about?
You know, the book is a lived experience.
It is really our clients.
We have client stories in there,

(36:58):
but we also have our own personal experience.
Because at this age, nobody has the experience we have in this area lived.
Yeah.
1900, the average lifespan was 46 years of age.
So we're gained 30 years.
So there's not a lot of really good examples
of people doing relationship well into their 70s and 80s.

(37:22):
And there's not enough real good examples of how to do that well.
And so this is the first generation that really has gotten
large numbers of people who are living and having the health
to have a relationship.
Because you do have to be fairly healthy to have a relationship.
Yeah.
No one wants to start off a relationship being a caretaker in most cases.

(37:45):
Yes.
And you know, women talk about one of the things that
stop them from dating is they don't want to be a nurse or a person.
They love to say that.
I don't want to be a nurse or a person.
We hear that all the time.
Yeah.
And I say they're a female nurses.
They're also male nurses.
So, you know, and you don't have to be a nurse.
And the first part, we could talk about that endlessly,

(38:07):
but you're never going to be financially equal.
What you want is somebody who can take care of themselves,
who has a retirement, who's been responsible for themselves financially,
because you're not going to, you're not in a way or you're going to be equal.
And if you wait to find someone equal, it's going to really limit.
If you wait for all, if you make all these requirements,

(38:30):
you are not going to get into a relationship.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, just postpone getting into a relationship.
Yeah.
And I was reading through the book.
I was beginning to think, well, a lot of the principles and the stories that you share
are from a senior's perspective, but those principles can be translated into your 20s and 30s

(38:52):
and 40s all the way through.
A lot of young people have told us that.
It's kind of nice to hear from them saying, hey, these are not just old issues.
They are issues that we can tell.
The one issue that is different is that our chapter on through the bedroom door.
And that is different.

(39:13):
Yeah.
Sexuality is different.
We really, you know, say to people, well, if you want to know more about it, get the book.
So we're not going to go, so we got to go down, you brought it up.
So we got to go down that road just a little bit.
Okay.
Okay.
So what is the main difference between when you're 80, you guys said you're 84, correct?

(39:39):
I'm 85 and 25.
You're 25.
Yeah.
You want to go to the next one, right?
I mean, yeah.
So what's the difference between sex at 84 and sex at 24?
And I got to tell you a story.
When I was in college, I went to a church in Carvalhoes, Oregon, and they had a visiting preacher

(40:05):
come up to the pulpit.
And he was in his 80s and he was talking about Christians and sex.
And he was approached by the question, well, when does sex end?
And he be shaded to tell the story, well, I'm 85.
So it ends sometime after that.

(40:27):
Well, that's really true.
One of the things is that the statistics that I've heard in you,
I think we know those statistics.
Yeah.
That really, in a sense, after 70, there is a high

(40:49):
propensity for people for men to be impudent or have some problems with erections.
So, you know, sex needs to be different.
Connection needs to be different.
And how you make love and what you do in the bedroom is usually a little different.
And if you don't adjust to that, then you may just eliminate it all, which many men do.

(41:12):
I mean, I had men come in in my practice that were talking about, well, I don't, it's too embarrassing.
I certainly can't date now because I can't get an erection.
Yeah, I was going to say everything.
And I said, what are you talking about?
I mean, that is an end there.
I mean, don't you like touch?
Don't you enjoy connection?
Don't you enjoy kissing?

(41:33):
Don't you enjoy finally?
I mean, where are you in this whole thing?
I mean, what do you really enjoy?
And what are you going to miss out if you just stay away because you can't get an erection?
And is that typical amongst men as opposed to women?
You know, because I think men are more programmed for performance.

(41:57):
Exactly.
And who performs?
The men, it's pretty obvious if you have a soft erection, it's nothing you can hide.
Women can kind of fake it a little more, but they also have drive vaginal areas
and problems with lubrication.
So there are issues that both have and you have to be really honest and be willing to face that.

(42:24):
And you have to find out whether you...
I have a friend who is an example.
And don't forget women can be orgasmic or not at that age also.
Exactly.
And it's an individual.
Yeah, I had a friend who had prostate surgery.
And he was a psychologist and he said, you know, one of the things I was really scared about
was after prostate surgery, would I be able to have an erection in Wedebi?

(42:48):
And then I talked to him three or four months after he got his convalescence done.
He was back and I said, well, how's it going?
I'm what's going on?
And he says, you know what?
We're finding so many better ways to make love now than we used to.
It used to be all about penetration.
And now it's about connection.
Yeah, well said.

(43:10):
I think one of the things that I know about my parents' generation that sex was one of those
topics that you really didn't talk about.
Exactly.
And I'm from the baby boomer generation.
And so we were all about free love and openly discussing sex.
And I'm curious how your generation...

(43:32):
I mean, you're at the tail end of the greatest generation.
My mom is in '95.
And my grandmother, I used to take care of my grandmother and my mom's mom.
And my grandfather came to me and says, "Mark, I'm just worn out.
Can you give grandma a shower?"
And I said, "Okay."

(43:57):
He goes, "Just remember, she's very modest."
And that's that generation. She's very modest.
And so I said, "Okay, well, I'll be as discreet as I can."
And he said, "Yeah, she's so modest that she wears a swimming suit to take her own bath."
You know, I mean, that's how modest that generation was.

(44:21):
I mean, they just just didn't talk about it.
They was all about covering up, even within themselves.
I take care of my mom today and she doesn't even care anymore.
She just, you know, I go, "Mom, cover up."
Really?
Yeah, I think that's true. There is a big difference.

(44:41):
But of course, it's individual also, you know, how people feel about it
and how they felt about their sexuality in the past.
I mean, the history of it.
But I have a feeling that there are men who don't date because of their...
All very much so.
And because they feel like, well, my dating years are over.

(45:02):
If I don't have a full erection and that...
That's a big lie, unfortunately.
And I wish more people understood that it's a lie.
I mean, there are so many ways of showing and receiving love.
You don't really have to be so focused on penetration.
No, you know, there are things that you can do for shots and...

(45:24):
For some people...
For some people, Viagra works for some people.
It doesn't.
Once you've had prostate cancers, it's a pretty hard deal.
But, you know, if you...
I mean, you might want to get shots at person and things like that.
But for some people, that's a pain in the neck.
I mean, there's no spontaneity.
There's no just getting up and...
But there's so much to learn.

(45:45):
Cuttle and kissing and, you know, and fondling each other
and just being close.
Yes.
And really, in a sense, it takes a lot of pressure off it for...
Especially a man, if he knows that he can be loved without having a separate.
Mm-hmm.
So, in other words, what you're saying for the bedroom is...

(46:07):
It's an open book and it's not an end to the chapter.
It can go on.
It takes time to sit down and have serious conversation.
An open conversation, which goes back to your book called "Open to Love."
How did you come up with that title and was this part of some of the impetus behind,

(46:28):
you know, having open conversations with one another
and that love is possible?
Well, Mark, to be open with you.
No, actually, glory as foundation is open to hope.
So, we thought open to love would be the next step.

(46:50):
You know, if indeed you go through grief,
then, in a sense, it doesn't mean the end of things.
Open to love is kind of the next thing.
Yeah.
So, we said, "I like the open part."
Yeah.
Let's do this open to love.
Open to hope.
Our mission is helping people find hope after a death.
And so, open to love is helping people find...

(47:13):
And more than it mits the writing of the third book, which is "Open to Life."
And that is, "Okay, once you find a partner, how do you make it work?"
These issues are sexuality, money, family, friends, caretaking, illness.
We're taking up in the next book that we're writing, which is "Open to Life."

(47:35):
This thing is about being open to love is that you have to just talk into people about,
are you open to a new person in your life?
It's interesting just asking them that,
are you open to a new person in your life?
Just look at you and say, "Oh, I don't know."
That's true.

(47:56):
It's honest.
They don't know.
I think, would I...
And it puts them on the trajectory of would I be interested?
Would I not?
And if I am, how do I go about it?
Yeah, it's amazing.
And it's not...
You just don't say, "Okay, I'm open to love now."
Where are...
You know, where are the people?

(48:17):
I mean, it's a process.
It is.
And, you know, in the first chapter of the book, we say,
you got to start by taking a little inventory.
Who am I now?
What did I like in past relationships?
What didn't I like?
What didn't I like?
Start...
You know, have some fun with it.
Start thinking about...
Yeah, okay.
Find out.
I get a profile of the kind of person that would work for you.

(48:39):
And the kind of person that will usually work for you is the successful
pieces of past relationships.
So you say, "Yeah, I like that.
I like that.
I like that in relationship."
Oh, now I know what I'm looking for.
But you take that information and then you...
If we use it, we like online dating.
The reason we do is because if you want to catch fish,

(49:00):
you go with the fish.
Fish are...
And yeah.
The fish are online dating.
Yeah, it's 50/50 online.
So we don't see them.
We don't see them.
We don't see them.
Much better online because the numbers are better for them.
Well, the motivation is the same.
You're on there because you're looking...
And hopefully people are honest
and they're really single and they're looking for a relationship.

(49:21):
You've got to be a good consumer if you go online, no.
You have to learn how to find out about the person.
And if you have any questions, you can do the e-verify.
You can go on Google.
You can Google them.
You can do a lot of different things.
Why pages to find out about the person that you're thinking about dating?

(49:43):
And you really want to find out.
Are they who they say they are?
And that's the biggest thing.
And we say, under no circumstances,
you ever give money to anybody online.
No matter what the story is.
And you've got to be careful.
You want to meet them as soon as possible
so that you don't fall in love with them online
and then find out it's a scammer.

(50:03):
I mean, I guess it's okay if you like to talk people
to be people on the phone 24/7 or text.
Good for you, but the reality is...
Not a good way to part about it.
If you're really a dating person,
you want to find a partner, cut all that out.
Virtual dating is not the answer.
There's too many ways for people to hide something.

(50:26):
Besides that, you want the chemistry.
Yeah, you want to find it if you like this person.
You know, I'll tell you one thing that really surprised me,
Mark, and that is that you are so silly
when you fall in love with somebody.
It doesn't matter how old you are.
You're a teenager, yeah.
You're silly.
You're stupid.
You're... that's really stupid.
And you have to be stupid again.

(50:47):
Yeah, that's part of the fun.
Well, I...
We used to call that when I was in college.
We called it flathead.
So what happens is when you meet a beautiful woman
and all the sudden, all the emotions just,
take over your brain and it presses down
to where you can't even think logically anymore.

(51:10):
Yeah.
Well, you know, there's what I like about.
When you sign up for an online dating app,
it changes the chemistry of your brain.
There's a little land in there called the amygdala.
And when the amygdala gets excited, then things happen.
And when you decide you want to date,
you start looking at those pictures.
You get out of your sweats?

(51:31):
You get out of your sweats.
You start going to bars and looking around or rest out.
Suddenly, people see you looking around.
You tell your friends you're dating.
You find out...
Obviously, you're online.
You find out they're online and it can be a party.
Yeah.
What do you say to the daughter or the son that says,
"Mom, what are you doing?

(51:51):
You're too old for this.
You shouldn't be dating."
Oh, man.
We hear that all the time.
Yeah, we heard it from...
For my...
Yes.
Not that you're too old,
but that, frankly, I were going too fast.
And should you be dating?
And, you know, they're all talking about it.
But the double family, you know what I said to him?
I said, "I am old.
I don't have a lot of time."
And basically, the message was, it's none of your business.

(52:12):
Well said.
We'll say...
We'll say, people say,
"Thank you very much for your information, Beth."
Yeah.
I will handle it.
Otherwise, I'm going to handle it.
When I want your opinion, I'll tell it to you.
Yeah, that's right.
However, I did have another friend who got scammed
and she wouldn't listen to her son.
You know, sometimes you do have to listen to the story.

(52:35):
That's the risk...
That's the risk of life.
Yeah, no!
It's a lie.
I have to say it takes care of today.
Yeah.
And after you do it, it does.
It does.
I guess a study who's out there dating a senior or...
Put yourself out there.
In their 30s or 40s, I think you're going to be rejected.
You know, so...
That's part of the...
So we talk about rejection in the book.
Yeah.

(52:55):
And the fact that you've got...
I do handle it.
...that you need to take it as information for your next date.
And it's not...
Yeah.
You know, it just wasn't the right...
Right connect.
Yeah.
And working on that...
What happens when you're 20 or 30, 40?
I mean, it's a life of rejection.
So get over it.
Exactly.
But as we get older, we get more afraid in many ways.

(53:18):
Well, especially if you just started dating.
Yeah.
It's a little more vulnerable.
One of the things our friends tell us is...
People that we work with is that...
It takes a lot of time.
And I want to say that it does.
It does.
If you want a date, particularly online,
you need to make a commitment to...
to maybe have some hours...

(53:40):
Yeah.
You're going to do it.
You need to set some goals.
How many people will you see?
And one thing that we found is that
you don't want to go into your head alone.
You want to have a dating buddy,
or a dating buddies
that you can talk to about this
and you get support and help.
And a lot of times,
grandkids are great dating guys.
Yeah, your kids won't be but your grandkids.

(54:01):
Your grandkids will.
Think it's fun.
Yeah, they think it's...
They'll help you set up your web.
They'll go to the web.
They can help you out.
I mean, they're not going to stay with you
for the whole thing.
Yeah.
Just to get you started.
And then you start talking about it.
You'll find out that your friends have been dating
or people that you'll find out.
Yeah, but dating buddies are really important to success.

(54:23):
Yeah, because you get this courage.
Yeah.
You need a supporter.
Yeah, and you can go through the pictures together
and help them.
And have fun and talk about dating experiences
that you've got.
And there's somebody.
There's somebody if you do break up,
you can call them at 10 o'clock at night.
Exactly.
And people tell us,
"Their up is great."
We've done that.
We've coached people as they're...
Yeah, but...

(54:43):
But you're not there to go through the pictures
with them all the time.
Or say, "Hey, did you just...
guy or this woman online,
what do you think?"
And then it's not the funny stories.
I mean, they can't tell us the funny stories they do.
So we're coming up against the end of our time together.
But...
Oh, we're just...
Oh, see how fast it goes.
I mean, we haven't even gotten into
the details of the book.

(55:04):
So here's what I want to do is...
give us an overview of your book.
Because it's a compilation of a lot of years
of knowledge and wisdom.
And I love the wisdom part of which you brought to the book.
But the second half of your title is
"The Secret to Senior Dating."
What's the secret?

(55:25):
Well, I think one of the biggest secrets is
we've said you got to make commitment.
Well, one of the things is you got to do it now.
You got to get yourself out there.
You got to get the courage to say, "Hey, look,
I don't want to be alone,
and this is the way that I need to find someone."
And I'm willing to take a risk.

(55:46):
And I'm nearly take a risk and get out there.
And we show you in the book how you can create your profiles online
and things kind of building up from the beginning of the book.
You're looking at what you want.
And then you write that into your profile
so that there are certain things that you can
do to enhance your chances of finding that reason.
And I think one of the things that I love about the book

(56:08):
after writing it and rereading it.
Because it's interesting to write a book and then reread it.
Oh, I said that.
Oh, that's not bad.
I'm not right about that.
Well, it's kind of fun to do.
One of the things that I really liked about the book
is that we really talk about real issues

(56:28):
of dating at this point in our life.
And like you said, these are some issues
that are through dating all the way from 30 on.
And don't give up and be a good consumer.
Yes.
And get a dating buddy if you're going to get in the business.
Yeah, absolutely dating buddies and have fun.

(56:49):
Yes, enjoy it.
We certainly have.
And one of the things I like about the book too is Frank speaks
in his own voice.
And then I speak in my own voice.
Because I've learned a lot from Frank, what men think.
I love our little emojis that was done by cartoonists,
where it's glorious emoji.
And then she has her talk.

(57:10):
I'm my take on it.
And I have my little emoji.
I think that's one of the things I enjoyed about the read
as well is that I knew who was speaking when,
because of the way you guys laid it out.
And it was really good to get the different perspectives.
I think we're men, so we think a lot of like.
But it's also nice to hear how a woman thinks.

(57:32):
And especially at the age of 85,
how do you think differently than a man at 85?
Or it doesn't matter the age.
I mean, just women are just thinking different than guys.
Yes.
Yeah, I think that's really important.
And so many books are written by women

(57:53):
that on relationships that I really learned so much from her
that I didn't even know.
Even after 40 years of doing therapy and being 80 years old,
I still learned some things about women from her
that I didn't know.
As we wrote the book, it was wonderful.
My main thing that I learned is why men day under women.
I thought it was because they were just hot.

(58:15):
And Frank tells me no, it's because they want other guys
to see they still got a hot woman on it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Arm candy, they call that.
Arm candy.
Yeah, look what I can do.
I'm not so old, look at it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, that's great stuff.

(58:36):
That's great stuff.
So for those that want to pick up a copy of the book,
where's the best way to get it?
And then also, do you have a website?
So let's say, do you talk with seniors
or with children of seniors,
conversing with addressing some of the challenges
that they face in the dating scene?

(58:57):
Well, you'll find at thegoldandateanddoctor.com,
thegoldandate.com, you will find a lot of snippets
and things that we've done online,
answering questions, and all that kind of thing.
And then--
That's good information.
Yeah.
And then the book can be bought on Amazon.
We'd love to have you buy the book.
And if we like it, we hope you'll give it a--

(59:17):
There's an audio book where we actually--
We read the book.
I read my sections, and she reads her sections,
and then we trade off reading the center part of it.
We have a lot of fun with the audio book.
It was actually-- it was all had a work,
but it came how much better than I thought.
And we're on Instagram, social media,

(59:39):
the Golden Dating Doctors.
You can see us playing pickleball.
Yes.
Nice.
All right.
Dr. Gloria Horsley and Dr. Frank Powers,
thank you so much for being on Aging today.
It was a pleasure.
It was a delight.
It was filled with laughter and wisdom.
And I say thank you.

(59:59):
That's--
Thanks for having us on, Mark.
Yes.
Great.
Keep reaching out, touching the lives of seniors out there.
And you're not just touching seniors.
You are touching--
It's a multi-generational book.
And it's about dating.
It's about living, you know,
how we interrelate with one another.
Families interrelating with their moms and dads

(01:00:21):
and validating everything that we're doing as human beings.
Love it.
Oh, great.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I can't wait for the third book to come out.
Let's get you on.
And either.
Yeah.
All right.
Did you start it?
Did you start the book?
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
It's a third done.
Second book, yeah.
Second?
Third done.

(01:00:42):
Yeah.
We have to have a workbook.
I have to laugh because we're still living it.
Yeah.
We can get a new chapter.
Oh, my God.
Yes.
Nice.
All right.
We'll keep it going.
We'll have you back, for sure.
Thank you.
Thank you.
All right.
This is Mark Turnbull, your host.
And I want to thank all of you for tuning into Aging Today.
We are the podcast where together,

(01:01:04):
we're exploring the many options to Aging on your terms.
Join us every Monday when we release a new conversation
on Aging Today, do your favorite podcast channel.
And remember this.
We're all in the process of Aging.
And as we age, we really are better together.
So stay young at heart.
[MUSIC PLAYING]

(01:01:25):
You make me feel so young.
You make me feel like spring has sprung.
And every time I see your face, I'm such a happy individual
the moment that you speak.
I want to go play hide and see.
I want to go and bounce the moon just like a toy balloon.

(01:01:49):
Well, you and I, I'll just like a bulletots running across the metal.
Big enough lots of forget me nights so you made me feel so young.
You make me feel there are songs to be sung.
There will still be room and one of the things to be fun.

(01:02:13):
And when I'm old and grey.
You've been listening to Aging Today, where together,
we explore the options to Aging on your terms.
Join Mark and his guest next week for another lively discussion
on proactively Aging on your terms, connecting you
to the professional advice of his special guests
with the goal of creating better days

(01:02:35):
throughout the aging process.
Your host has been Mark Turnbull.
Join Mark and his guest every week on Aging Today,
your podcast to exploring your options for Aging on your terms.
And you and I will be grey.
You make me feel the way I feel today.
'Cause you make me feel so.

(01:02:57):
You make me feel so.
You make me feel so young.
So young.
You make me feel so young.
You make me feel so young.
[Music]