August 13, 2025 • 30 mins
“Overqualified.” “Not a good fit.” What are those rejections really saying—and how to turn them into job offers.
After 30 years in corporate real estate and community development, Nori Jabba thought her credentials and experience would open doors. Instead, she faced constant rejection—code for ageism in the workplace.
Refusing to accept defeat, she contacted hiring managers for honest feedback. The truth was a wake-up call: many women over 50 were being dismissed as poor listeners, too quick to share wisdom without hearing new perspectives. That insight sparked a total career reinvention after 50, where meaning, balance, and fulfillment became more important than titles.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- Midlife career transition strategies that work
- Overcoming age bias and getting hired after 50
- Job search strategies for women 50+
- Turning “too much experience” into an advantage
- Resume tips for older job seekers
- Confidence tips for women 50+
- Finding meaningful work in midlife
If you’ve been hitting career roadblocks and wondering why, this conversation will give you answers—and a way forward.
Resources:
To hear similar stories on challenging the work environment after 50, check out episode #128 and #130 of Aging With Purpose And Passion and If you are navigating the complex, journey of caring for a loved one with dementia, the Fading Memories podcast offers clear, compassionate guidance on everything from effective communication to managing stress and coping with grief. This podcast provides the empathy and self-care strategies you need to find strength and clarity amidst the challenges.
Nori Jabba – Author, Speaker, Housing Coordinator
Email: norijabba@gmail.com
Website: www.norijabba.com
Facebook: facebook.com/njabba
Instagram: instagram.com/bnjabba
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/nori-jabba
Beverley Glazer MA. – Transformation Coach & Host of Aging with Purpose and Passion
Website: reinventimpossible.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/beverleyglazer
Facebook: facebook.com/beverley.glazer
Facebook Group: facebook.com/groups/womenover50rock
Instagram: instagram.com/beverleyglazer_reinvention
🎁 BONUS: Take your first step to clarity, courage and momentum. Your free checklist: → From Stuck to Unstoppable – is here.
https://reinvent-impossible.aweb.page/from-stuck-to-unstoppable
Have feedback or a powerful story that's worth telling? Contact us at info@Reinventimpossible.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to Aging with Purpose and Passion, the
podcast designed to inspire yourgreatness and thrive through
life.
Get ready to conquer your fears.
Here's your hostpsychotherapist, coach and
empowerment expert, BeverleyGlazer.
Beverley Glazer (00:31):
Ageism is real and it's ugly.
It can diminish your self-worth, your identity and your soul.
Have you suffered ageism in theworkplace?
Welcome to Aging with Purposeand Passion, the podcast for
(00:52):
women who believe in theirdreams regardless of their age
and keep thriving beyond theirlimitations.
I'm Beverly Glaser and I helpwomen change their inner game
and achieve fulfillment in theirbusiness and personal life, and
you can find me onreinventimpossiblecom.
So today I want you to meetNori Jaba.
(01:12):
Nori is a seasoned professionalwith 30 years in corporate real
estate and communitydevelopment, and she went from
feeling like a nothing toregaining confidence, securing a
great job and a new life thatshe absolutely loves.
Welcome.
Nori Jabba (01:33):
Nori, thank you so much.
Beverley Glazer (01:35):
It's great to be here, it's terrific to have
you and it's such an importantconversation to have.
Nori, you were successful.
You were in the workplace for agood 30 years.
What made you go intoconsulting and really stop that
full-time work?
Nori Jabba (01:54):
So I had three kids and it really comes down to that
, you know, life-work balance.
It was really hard.
I was working full-time, I hadthis color-coded spreadsheet
that I used every day to makesure that I kept on track with
pickups and drop-offs and all ofthat and I lost my job.
My company put our project onhold and let all of us go and
(02:19):
hired me back as a consultantthe next day.
So I decided to start my ownbusiness and consult for others
and give myself that much neededflexibility at home so that I
could be there to manage my lifeand my household and my kids.
So I did that for 10 years.
Beverley Glazer (02:38):
And that makes perfect sense.
Nori Jabba (02:57):
You know you were not not working, you were a
consultant.
And then what was going on?
I had lost a big client andthen another client, and you
know it was a shock with therevenue.
And so having that consistentrevenue was just something I
needed at the time.
And then the benefits I hadn'tbeen adding to my IRA for 10
years because everything went topaying expenses and expenses of
(03:19):
the business.
So I decided to go back to lookfor a full-time job again and
no one would hire me no one.
Beverley Glazer (03:27):
No one.
Did you maintain contactsthough?
Nori Jabba (03:31):
Oh yeah, I had a fantastic network and I think I
relied on that network perhaps alittle too much, or took it for
granted is a better way to sayit.
I had really important peopleas references and people that I
knew.
Everybody knew I was jobhunting and I thought, you know
for sure this network is goingto help me and it did open some
(03:53):
doors, no doubt about it, but itdidn't get me all the way there
.
There was something else goingon.
Beverley Glazer (03:59):
So what kind of things were people telling you?
Because obviously you wereapplying for jobs, obviously you
were getting interviews.
What was going on?
Nori Jabba (04:07):
Yeah, so I would come in second.
A lot, you know, with the newway of applying for jobs In the
old days it was much moreperson-centric, human-centered
Now it's computers, it's bots,it's AI and there's very little
interaction with an actualperson.
Everything is online, and ifyou get a response at all,
(04:30):
that's a great thing.
So it was kind of a shock tonot get any responses at all for
a lot of the jobs that Iapplied for.
And then you know, once in awhile I get a response, yay, and
get an interview, or even makeit to the second round, third
round, fourth round, thinkingI've got this and then no, I
(04:50):
didn't.
And sometimes they wouldn'teven let you know that you
didn't get the job.
You know, the whole hiringprocess is so different now.
Communication has gone by thewayside, I would say.
But you know, I came in second,I was told I wasn't a good fit,
I was told I was overqualified.
You know all of these codewords for ageism.
(05:11):
I was hearing them all and so Idecided to stop and go back to
consulting because it was reallydepleting my self-esteem and I
decided to try to figure outwhat was really going on here,
because there was something else.
It was ageism.
It was that I was a woman, itwas really that I was over 50.
(05:33):
And there was a third complexitythere.
There was the fact that I hadbeen a consultant for 10 years
and I learned that consultantsit's kind of code for oh, they
can't work well on a team orthey're too independent minded
or whatever it is.
You go in the no pile.
And then another thing thatworked against me, beverly, was
(05:55):
that I had taken six years offto be a stay-at-home mom A long
time ago.
I went back to work in 2006,but there was a six-year gap on
my resume and a great job beforeI took that time off that I
needed on that resume to show myexperience.
But it totally worked againstme because if you have a
(06:18):
six-year gap, boom, you go inthe no pile.
The bots won't even consideryou.
You're just an automatic no ifthere's a gap.
Beverley Glazer (06:26):
My goodness.
And the pressure must have beenhuge for you, because at 53,
you realized that you couldn'tstay in this marriage anymore.
Nori Jabba (06:37):
So I mean that was a whole other reason that I
wanted to go back to work is Ineeded that stability for my
future, because my marriage wasimploding and I knew that, to
take care of myself and for bothof us to be happy, I needed to
think about moving on.
So there was a lot of therewere a lot of really important
(06:58):
reasons.
I needed to go back to work andI couldn't.
I couldn't, so I stayed, and Iended up staying until 2023.
So I stayed a long time.
Beverley Glazer (07:11):
And did you do anything to upgrade your skills
Like what?
What did you do?
Because I think there'spressure everywhere, Nori.
Nori Jabba (07:20):
So first I decided to really understand what was
going on from the employer'sperspective.
So I reached out to a couple ofpeople that didn't hire me and
said, hey, could we have coffee?
And one of these was an HRdirector, you know, because she
wasn't the hiring manager, but Ithought that would be a really
(07:41):
good person to approach and Ireally had wanted that job and I
thought I had it.
I really did.
And she was a woman in her 40s.
So I said you know, I've decidedto write this book on women,
middle-aged women, in theworkforce and I'm hoping you
will help me.
And would you have coffee?
And she said yes, and we metfor over an hour and wow, did
(08:04):
she just unload on me and shareso much?
And I think she felt it was asafe environment, even though
I'm writing a book on this topic.
So I'm getting the word outthere, but it was anonymous,
right, and so she just sharedwith me a few things that were
really hard to hear and reallyhard pills to swallow.
(08:25):
So that was eye opening and itwas from that that I then went
out and got the skills I wasmissing and took some training
and changed my entire approach.
What kind of things hardestthing to hear was middle-aged
(08:47):
women don't listen.
And so here I am, a middle-agedwoman and thank goodness she
was a middle-aged woman tellingme this, because had it been a
younger woman or a man, it wouldhave been really hard to stay
having coffee.
I might have found an excuse tojust get up and leave, or at
(09:08):
least go to the bathroom andfigure out if I wanted to stay,
but I decided instead of, youknow, putting my fingers in my
ear and not listening, which wasexactly what she said.
You know middle-aged women do.
I said you know, tell me more.
What's really going on.
And I use this to reallyreflect on myself, because I'm a
(09:29):
talker.
I love to talk, but I also havealways thought I was a good
listener, am I not?
What does she mean here?
And in diving deeper with her inthe conversation, it was really
clear that a lot of middle-agedwomen tend to have so much
(09:55):
experience and also combine thatwith so we need to get the word
out with our wisdom.
We've earned our seat at thetable.
Listen to us, right, absolutely, 100% valid.
But we also have to fight sohard to be heard a lot of the
(10:15):
time that, at least for me, Iknow that I was guilty of not
listening.
So I would be at a table and Iuse this example at the job I
was in, sitting around with youknow, I think they were all men,
eight or 10 different men andme and I had to fight so hard to
be heard.
Every time I opened my mouth Iwas shut down, dismissed,
(10:35):
interrupted or my idea was takenand then, you know, somebody
else would grab onto it andlaunch into their own
perspective.
So I found myself not listeningto the conversation and not
adding value in that way, injust listening, but looking for
opportunities to jump in.
(10:56):
So I wasn't taking away fromthat meeting anything new,
growing from what other peoplewere saying and, you know,
takeaways, lessons learned.
No, I spent the entire timelike, can I jump in now I need
to add my two cents?
And having some great ideas,but feeling so unheard.
(11:19):
And so it's this balance forwomen of being heard and sharing
.
And in this HR director'sopinion, there was a lot of the
jumping in and not as muchlistening.
And so I took that to heart anddecided, okay, I'm going to
focus on really, what does itmean to be a good listener and
(11:42):
how can I do that.
So I really grew from thatthose words of wisdom from her.
So the other thing that sheshared that was tough is that
there's reverse ageism and a lotof older women are dismissive
of and I think this goes for mentoo, but we were just talking
(12:03):
about women they're dismissiveof younger people and that can
be really hard in certainindustries.
So, you know, the tech industry,for example, is filled with
younger people and the musicindustry my daughter works in
music and, boy, when you're over30, you're over the hill in the
music industry.
But you know, being able tolisten and show respect for
(12:28):
younger teammates, that was ahuge takeaway and I took it upon
myself to really shift on thatand not just say, oh, I'm going
to embrace and listen to youngerco-workers, but to actually
make that an intentional goal,to have mentors that are younger
, to really learn from myyounger coworkers and younger
(12:53):
people in general, and I havethree daughters in their
twenties and I try to learn fromthem every day.
They teach me stuff every day.
But I started taking that andexpanding it to the workplace
and you know the job that I gotwhen I first started my boss
could have been my child.
My boss was in her early 30sand I could not have done that
(13:17):
and felt good about myself in arole with that, had I not talked
to that HR director and beenthrough this experience of
writing the book.
Beverley Glazer (13:27):
That's huge.
How did you just change thatperspective?
What made you do?
Nori Jabba (13:32):
that.
Well, it was desperation and arealization that it was either
grow or die.
You know, it was either changeor shrivel and I thought, you
know, it's got to help, it'sabsolutely got to help, to help
me get a job.
So I just decided I have tochange right now, and I think it
(13:56):
was just an awareness that Irealized, oh wow, I yeah, I do
have some areas where I can grow, and maybe this was coming
through in an interview.
And sometimes when you're in aninterview, you're with one
person, sometimes you're with adiverse panel.
You're with one person,sometimes you're with a diverse
(14:18):
panel, and maybe I was comingoff that way, especially in the
diverse panels, you know, wherethere were young people.
They might have thought that,oh, this person just has to
share all of their wisdom andthey're not willing to learn
from me.
Or maybe I made a comment, butit was really just out of sheer
necessity that I need to thinkout of the box here, because
(14:41):
what I'm doing, having thestellar resume, the awards, the
30 years and the greatreferences nothing was working
for me.
Beverley Glazer (14:52):
That's very important, what you just said,
because usually when you go intoa job interview, those are the
things you emphasize.
Nori Jabba (15:01):
Yeah, exactly.
So another thing that I cameaway with from a different
person was this whole concept ofcorporate culture, and I hadn't
really thought about it, youknow.
I mean I knew the corporateculture in my heart that I liked
in a company, but when I wasreally desperately trying to go
(15:21):
back to work and applying for,you know, maybe 20 jobs a week
or 10 jobs a week or whatever itis, it takes a lot of time to
apply for a job and customizeyour cover letter and all of
this.
It was like a full-time job.
But I was approaching it morelike throwing spaghetti at a
wall, like whoever accepts me,I'm taking it right Instead of
(15:43):
really thinking through.
And the jobs were good.
Right, the jobs seemed like agood fit.
But was the company a good fit?
Was the corporate culturereally something that was a good
fit for me?
And I wasn't really focused onthat.
So I started focusing on thatbecause my research that I did
(16:05):
for the book I learned fit isthe number one thing that
they're looking for in a jobinterview.
Number one, not experience, nothow much you know or how well
you talk, it's.
Are you a good fit?
So what does fit really mean?
So I came up with this conceptI called the fit model, which is
(16:25):
kind of a play on words, butyou know it's questions that you
ask yourself about the companyto evaluate and about yourself
to evaluate if you are truly agood fit.
And so I started talking aboutthat in interviews to evaluate
and about yourself to evaluateif you are truly a good fit.
And so I started talking aboutthat in interviews and I'm
(16:47):
telling you, if somebody talksabout what makes them a good fit
or what they think would makethem a good fit about this
company, and they start talkingabout the corporate culture,
they are much more likely to getthat job.
Beverley Glazer (16:57):
Good point, good point, good point.
And in this whole process youwrote a book called Keeping your
Seat at the Table.
What is that metaphor all?
Nori Jabba (17:08):
about.
Oh my goodness, the table isthe most perfect metaphor for
this, and especially for women.
Perfect metaphor for this andespecially for women.
You know, when we think aboutwork and we think about our
career projection and what itmeans to have a seat at the
table, when I do PowerPointpresentations, I show this
(17:33):
picture of a bunch of oldcartoon of old white men at the
table and you're at the otherend and that's kind of what we
think.
You know you're invited to havethis seat at the table.
But what I learned through thisprocess is that thinking about
success and what the table meansis completely different.
It's no longer for me.
Is it this corporate boardtable?
(17:55):
No.
So what the book is about iscreating your own table, really
defining what your purpose isand what you want, what success
means for you, and then buildingout a table of supporters and
mentors and coaches and peopleat your table for these various
different topics, all based onthis metaphor of the table.
(18:17):
So you know, each chapter inthe book is a play on words and
you can go on.
There could be a second bookbecause there are so many ways
to use this metaphor, but itreally comes down to the heart
of the table in women's lives.
It is so critical to us forthriving and for happiness.
It's where we nourish.
(18:38):
It's where we nourish, it'swhere we get romantic, it's
where we take care of others,it's where we grow and learn and
feed ourselves.
It really applies to everysingle aspect of our lives, so
that's why I use the tablemetaphor every single aspect of
(18:58):
our lives.
So that's why I use the tablemetaphor.
And so keeping your seat at thetable is all about flipping it
over, building a new table, notgetting pulled under, which is
about all these distractionsthat we have in life.
Dancing on the table is at theend and leaning on others at the
table, and it's really.
I had so much fun writing it.
Beverley Glazer (19:18):
And today you absolutely love your life yes, I
do.
And you found a new job, andwhat are lessons that you
learned?
Nori Jabba (19:29):
So this job, this job is not the job that when I
started this journey and decidedto go back to work after
consulting, it's not the job Ithought I would end up with.
It wasn't even on my radar ajob like this.
I work for a municipality.
I manage housing programs forthem and I'd always wanted to
work for a city but I couldnever get in because if you
(19:53):
don't start your career with thecity, it's very hard to jump in
without municipal experience.
I didn't really understand why.
I just knew that that was theway it was.
I'd applied for city jobs inthe past and, you know, didn't
even make it to the interviewprocess because I didn't have
that municipal experience excepta stint in grad school.
So it was kind of on my bucketlist to work for a city.
(20:14):
So through the process I hadkind of identified that as
something I always wanted to do,because I have a master's in
urban and regional planning andyet I never worked for a
municipality in urban planning.
So it would be fun, right, butit wasn't on my radar because I
would have had to go in at alower level than I felt I was
(20:36):
worthy of and I was looking forVP or director.
I had run my own business for10 years.
I had been a director and Iactually, in the job that I did
get with a nonprofit with one ofmy clients, hired me primarily
because the laws changed inCalifornia and for independent
(20:56):
contractors.
They completely changed thedefinition of an independent
contractor and it made it reallyhard to keep consulting.
So my client hired me and thenI was sort of stolen away by the
city that we had worked with.
And cities tend to do that theysteal from other cities.
(21:16):
They, you know they poach goodpeople.
But I would never have appliedfor a job that was at this lower
level or that.
You know I would have a boss somuch younger than me and here I
just decided, you know I'mgoing to go for the other
elements that are importantabout this job and it's not this
(21:38):
straight line arrow going up.
It's what I needed in my lifeat that time to allow me to have
work-life balance, to showcasesome of the skills that I have
to grow and learn, and you know,working for a city there are so
many different things you haveto learn that only take place in
(21:59):
government, and so having agovernment job, you know the big
, big learning curve, eventhough the job was sort of
levels below me.
It was challenging and still is.
And so, yeah, I just decidedI'm shifting what my priority is
.
I just decided I'm shiftingwhat my priority is.
(22:22):
Also, through the process,before I really got into writing
the book, I decided, if nobodywould hire me, that I was going
to start my own company.
That here I am in SiliconValley, I could do this startup.
I had this idea for a techcompany, that kind of combined
municipalities and urbanplanning, and this was what I
wanted to do.
But I realized that through theprocess no was what I wanted to
do.
But I realized that through theprocess no, I want to be a
writer.
That's really what my passionis.
(22:43):
I don't need to start a company.
That was for my ego, because Ineeded that seat at the table,
the way I had originallyencompassed it.
So through this process, I justratcheted back what my career
ambitions were, so that I couldlook at myself more holistically
, and what I really needed to doto be happy.
(23:03):
And it wasn't being vicepresident or CEO of a startup
and working, you know, 18 hourdays.
No, it was having a job thatfulfills me with a team that I
love, where I can do some goodin the community, and that's I'm
not going to say it's easybecause it's challenging, but I
(23:24):
have enough experience under mybelt and knowledge that I can do
this job, so I have confidence.
You know it's not.
It's not a big lift.
Beverley Glazer (23:33):
What are some quick tips that you could tell
others who are on the same boat?
Nori, there they keep onfeeling that they're not good
enough, they're too old, they'renot going to get back to the
workplace, they need that joband they keep getting shot down.
Confidence gets lower.
A couple of tips for them.
Nori Jabba (23:53):
Well, you know, building that confidence is huge
and that was a big part of myproblem too, because it's this
vicious circle, right Viciouscycle that you start.
Your confidence takes aknockdown because you've been
rejected or somebody may havesaid something in an interview
or the reason they didn't hireyou, and then suddenly you're
(24:14):
depleted.
And then by the next interviewand it just keeps taking you
down and down and down and youhave to stop.
You have to pull back andreally look at what's going on
and how you're projectingyourself.
And I spend several chapters inthe book really looking at
building that inner confidenceand strength.
And for me, I realized itreally starts with you
(24:39):
physically.
You know, being strong, gettingsleep, taking care of yourself
those simple things thateverybody talks about these days
are so important.
And you know I have a chapterabout strength and building
strength at the table andbuilding a strong table,
starting with your core, andgetting physically strong to
(25:00):
feel more confident aboutyourself, getting physically
strong to feel more confidentabout yourself.
So, building that confidenceand great self-talk.
You know, get a therapist,whatever you need to do, because
you do deserve this great joband you are special and
wonderful and you've got tobelieve in yourself.
If you don't believe inyourself, I guarantee you that's
(25:21):
coming through in an interview.
So stop, take some time foryourself.
Build that confidence.
Feel good about the clothesthat you're in.
I'm wearing this red blousebecause it's my power blouse.
It makes me feel great wheneverI wear it.
I love it and it gives meconfidence, so doing things like
(25:42):
that really help.
So I would start there.
And then the second thing isreally take a look at your skill
set and where you're lacking.
There is so much to learn inlife.
You know the technology changesso fast.
Now AI is huge.
I like to call AI ageisminterrupted, because we can use
(26:03):
AI to help us learn things sofast and get resources that we
wouldn't have had access tobefore.
So, instead of curling up,embrace it.
Go to one of your job centers,like here we have.
It's called NovaWorks and everymetropolitan area has it.
It's free, you can go there andthey will give you assessments
(26:26):
and they will help you get theskills you need.
There are also so many onlineresources for free skills, and
in my book I provide a big listof them.
But there's just no excuse fornot learning and be open to
learning, and definitely never,ever, say I'm too old for that,
because if you say that you areand that's going to come through
(26:49):
in an interview too so be thatperson that learns everything,
that is willing to learn newthings, that embraces AI for the
right reasons, use it to helpbuild your skill set.
Beverley Glazer (27:02):
So what I'm hearing, nori, is keep going,
stay positive, get your skillsup to date, but better than that
, more importantly, do not giveup.
Nori Jabba (27:14):
Yeah, do not give up and take the time to feel good
about yourself and take thathard.
Look in the mirror and you knowif you don't like what you see.
Why is that?
Maybe it's simply and I'm not abig fan of plastic surgery and
hair dye.
I actually stopped dyeing myhair as an experiment for the
(27:36):
book.
Would people treat medifferently?
Guess what I felt.
They treated me better once Istopped dyeing my hair, so I
kept.
I haven't gone back and it'skind of owning your age and
experience.
Today I was doing interviewsfor a job and interviewing
candidates and looking at theresumes I immediately could tell
(27:58):
who was older, who was youngeron the resumes, because the
older people would not put theiryears of graduation of their
degrees on their resume and Ikind of I don't like that.
I don't think it helps.
It just means yeah, you're oldand you're shamed.
So I say, put that year on yourresume and own it, own your
(28:20):
experience and stand up tall.
Beverley Glazer (28:22):
Thank you, nori .
So, in other words, be yourself, be proud.
And Nori Ndiayeba is a writer,a professional speaker and a
mentor, and her book Keepingyour Seat at the Table.
She shares an eight-stepjourney of growth and
transformation.
Where can people find you?
Nori Jabba (28:44):
Nora.
So it's on Amazon.
It's also on Audible.
I recorded the whole thingmyself, very hard to do and
really part of my journey aswell.
So Audible and Amazon.
Beverley Glazer (28:56):
Okay, terrific.
And all those links.
If you didn't get them, they'rein the show notes and they're
on my site too.
That's reinventimpossiblecom.
And so, my friends, what's nextfor you?
What's stopping you fromgetting more out of life?
Download the From Stuck toUnstoppable and find out, and
that also will be in the shownotes too.
(29:19):
You can connect with me,Beverley Glazer, on all social
media platforms and in mypositive group of women on
Facebook that's Women Over 50Rock, and you can schedule a
quick Zoom to talk to mepersonally.
Thank you for listening.
Have you enjoyed thisconversation?
Please join me next week,subscribe and get these episodes
(29:43):
in your inbox and drop us areview, and send it to a friend.
And remember you only have onelife, so live it with purpose.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Thank you for joining us.
You can connect with Bev on herwebsite, reinventimpossible.
com and, while you're there,join our newsletter Subscribe so
you don't miss an episode.
Until next time, keep agingwith purpose and passion and
celebrate life.
Welcome to Aging with Purpose and Passion, the
podcast designed to inspire yourgreatness and thrive through
life.
Get ready to conquer your fears.
Here's your hostpsychotherapist, coach and
empowerment expert, BeverleyGlazer.
Beverley Glazer (00:31):
Ageism is real and it's ugly.
It can diminish your self-worth, your identity and your soul.
Have you suffered ageism in theworkplace?
Welcome to Aging with Purposeand Passion, the podcast for
(00:52):
women who believe in theirdreams regardless of their age
and keep thriving beyond theirlimitations.
I'm Beverly Glaser and I helpwomen change their inner game
and achieve fulfillment in theirbusiness and personal life, and
you can find me onreinventimpossiblecom.
So today I want you to meetNori Jaba.
(01:12):
Nori is a seasoned professionalwith 30 years in corporate real
estate and communitydevelopment, and she went from
feeling like a nothing toregaining confidence, securing a
great job and a new life thatshe absolutely loves.
Welcome.
Nori Jabba (01:33):
Nori, thank you so much.
Beverley Glazer (01:35):
It's great to be here, it's terrific to have
you and it's such an importantconversation to have.
Nori, you were successful.
You were in the workplace for agood 30 years.
What made you go intoconsulting and really stop that
full-time work?
Nori Jabba (01:54):
So I had three kids and it really comes down to that
, you know, life-work balance.
It was really hard.
I was working full-time, I hadthis color-coded spreadsheet
that I used every day to makesure that I kept on track with
pickups and drop-offs and all ofthat and I lost my job.
My company put our project onhold and let all of us go and
(02:19):
hired me back as a consultantthe next day.
So I decided to start my ownbusiness and consult for others
and give myself that much neededflexibility at home so that I
could be there to manage my lifeand my household and my kids.
So I did that for 10 years.
Beverley Glazer (02:38):
And that makes perfect sense.
Nori Jabba (02:57):
You know you were not not working, you were a
consultant.
And then what was going on?
I had lost a big client andthen another client, and you
know it was a shock with therevenue.
And so having that consistentrevenue was just something I
needed at the time.
And then the benefits I hadn'tbeen adding to my IRA for 10
years because everything went topaying expenses and expenses of
(03:19):
the business.
So I decided to go back to lookfor a full-time job again and
no one would hire me no one.
Beverley Glazer (03:27):
No one.
Did you maintain contactsthough?
Nori Jabba (03:31):
Oh yeah, I had a fantastic network and I think I
relied on that network perhaps alittle too much, or took it for
granted is a better way to sayit.
I had really important peopleas references and people that I
knew.
Everybody knew I was jobhunting and I thought, you know
for sure this network is goingto help me and it did open some
(03:53):
doors, no doubt about it, but itdidn't get me all the way there
.
There was something else goingon.
Beverley Glazer (03:59):
So what kind of things were people telling you?
Because obviously you wereapplying for jobs, obviously you
were getting interviews.
What was going on?
Nori Jabba (04:07):
Yeah, so I would come in second.
A lot, you know, with the newway of applying for jobs In the
old days it was much moreperson-centric, human-centered
Now it's computers, it's bots,it's AI and there's very little
interaction with an actualperson.
Everything is online, and ifyou get a response at all,
(04:30):
that's a great thing.
So it was kind of a shock tonot get any responses at all for
a lot of the jobs that Iapplied for.
And then you know, once in awhile I get a response, yay, and
get an interview, or even makeit to the second round, third
round, fourth round, thinkingI've got this and then no, I
(04:50):
didn't.
And sometimes they wouldn'teven let you know that you
didn't get the job.
You know, the whole hiringprocess is so different now.
Communication has gone by thewayside, I would say.
But you know, I came in second,I was told I wasn't a good fit,
I was told I was overqualified.
You know all of these codewords for ageism.
(05:11):
I was hearing them all and so Idecided to stop and go back to
consulting because it was reallydepleting my self-esteem and I
decided to try to figure outwhat was really going on here,
because there was something else.
It was ageism.
It was that I was a woman, itwas really that I was over 50.
(05:33):
And there was a third complexitythere.
There was the fact that I hadbeen a consultant for 10 years
and I learned that consultantsit's kind of code for oh, they
can't work well on a team orthey're too independent minded
or whatever it is.
You go in the no pile.
And then another thing thatworked against me, beverly, was
(05:55):
that I had taken six years offto be a stay-at-home mom A long
time ago.
I went back to work in 2006,but there was a six-year gap on
my resume and a great job beforeI took that time off that I
needed on that resume to show myexperience.
But it totally worked againstme because if you have a
(06:18):
six-year gap, boom, you go inthe no pile.
The bots won't even consideryou.
You're just an automatic no ifthere's a gap.
Beverley Glazer (06:26):
My goodness.
And the pressure must have beenhuge for you, because at 53,
you realized that you couldn'tstay in this marriage anymore.
Nori Jabba (06:37):
So I mean that was a whole other reason that I
wanted to go back to work is Ineeded that stability for my
future, because my marriage wasimploding and I knew that, to
take care of myself and for bothof us to be happy, I needed to
think about moving on.
So there was a lot of therewere a lot of really important
(06:58):
reasons.
I needed to go back to work andI couldn't.
I couldn't, so I stayed, and Iended up staying until 2023.
So I stayed a long time.
Beverley Glazer (07:11):
And did you do anything to upgrade your skills
Like what?
What did you do?
Because I think there'spressure everywhere, Nori.
Nori Jabba (07:20):
So first I decided to really understand what was
going on from the employer'sperspective.
So I reached out to a couple ofpeople that didn't hire me and
said, hey, could we have coffee?
And one of these was an HRdirector, you know, because she
wasn't the hiring manager, but Ithought that would be a really
(07:41):
good person to approach and Ireally had wanted that job and I
thought I had it.
I really did.
And she was a woman in her 40s.
So I said you know, I've decidedto write this book on women,
middle-aged women, in theworkforce and I'm hoping you
will help me.
And would you have coffee?
And she said yes, and we metfor over an hour and wow, did
(08:04):
she just unload on me and shareso much?
And I think she felt it was asafe environment, even though
I'm writing a book on this topic.
So I'm getting the word outthere, but it was anonymous,
right, and so she just sharedwith me a few things that were
really hard to hear and reallyhard pills to swallow.
(08:25):
So that was eye opening and itwas from that that I then went
out and got the skills I wasmissing and took some training
and changed my entire approach.
What kind of things hardestthing to hear was middle-aged
(08:47):
women don't listen.
And so here I am, a middle-agedwoman and thank goodness she
was a middle-aged woman tellingme this, because had it been a
younger woman or a man, it wouldhave been really hard to stay
having coffee.
I might have found an excuse tojust get up and leave, or at
(09:08):
least go to the bathroom andfigure out if I wanted to stay,
but I decided instead of, youknow, putting my fingers in my
ear and not listening, which wasexactly what she said.
You know middle-aged women do.
I said you know, tell me more.
What's really going on.
And I use this to reallyreflect on myself, because I'm a
(09:29):
talker.
I love to talk, but I also havealways thought I was a good
listener, am I not?
What does she mean here?
And in diving deeper with her inthe conversation, it was really
clear that a lot of middle-agedwomen tend to have so much
(09:55):
experience and also combine thatwith so we need to get the word
out with our wisdom.
We've earned our seat at thetable.
Listen to us, right, absolutely, 100% valid.
But we also have to fight sohard to be heard a lot of the
(10:15):
time that, at least for me, Iknow that I was guilty of not
listening.
So I would be at a table and Iuse this example at the job I
was in, sitting around with youknow, I think they were all men,
eight or 10 different men andme and I had to fight so hard to
be heard.
Every time I opened my mouth Iwas shut down, dismissed,
(10:35):
interrupted or my idea was takenand then, you know, somebody
else would grab onto it andlaunch into their own
perspective.
So I found myself not listeningto the conversation and not
adding value in that way, injust listening, but looking for
opportunities to jump in.
(10:56):
So I wasn't taking away fromthat meeting anything new,
growing from what other peoplewere saying and, you know,
takeaways, lessons learned.
No, I spent the entire timelike, can I jump in now I need
to add my two cents?
And having some great ideas,but feeling so unheard.
(11:19):
And so it's this balance forwomen of being heard and sharing
.
And in this HR director'sopinion, there was a lot of the
jumping in and not as muchlistening.
And so I took that to heart anddecided, okay, I'm going to
focus on really, what does itmean to be a good listener and
(11:42):
how can I do that.
So I really grew from thatthose words of wisdom from her.
So the other thing that sheshared that was tough is that
there's reverse ageism and a lotof older women are dismissive
of and I think this goes for mentoo, but we were just talking
(12:03):
about women they're dismissiveof younger people and that can
be really hard in certainindustries.
So, you know, the tech industry,for example, is filled with
younger people and the musicindustry my daughter works in
music and, boy, when you're over30, you're over the hill in the
music industry.
But you know, being able tolisten and show respect for
(12:28):
younger teammates, that was ahuge takeaway and I took it upon
myself to really shift on thatand not just say, oh, I'm going
to embrace and listen to youngerco-workers, but to actually
make that an intentional goal,to have mentors that are younger
, to really learn from myyounger coworkers and younger
(12:53):
people in general, and I havethree daughters in their
twenties and I try to learn fromthem every day.
They teach me stuff every day.
But I started taking that andexpanding it to the workplace
and you know the job that I gotwhen I first started my boss
could have been my child.
My boss was in her early 30sand I could not have done that
(13:17):
and felt good about myself in arole with that, had I not talked
to that HR director and beenthrough this experience of
writing the book.
Beverley Glazer (13:27):
That's huge.
How did you just change thatperspective?
What made you do?
Nori Jabba (13:32):
that.
Well, it was desperation and arealization that it was either
grow or die.
You know, it was either changeor shrivel and I thought, you
know, it's got to help, it'sabsolutely got to help, to help
me get a job.
So I just decided I have tochange right now, and I think it
(13:56):
was just an awareness that Irealized, oh wow, I yeah, I do
have some areas where I can grow, and maybe this was coming
through in an interview.
And sometimes when you're in aninterview, you're with one
person, sometimes you're with adiverse panel.
You're with one person,sometimes you're with a diverse
(14:18):
panel, and maybe I was comingoff that way, especially in the
diverse panels, you know, wherethere were young people.
They might have thought that,oh, this person just has to
share all of their wisdom andthey're not willing to learn
from me.
Or maybe I made a comment, butit was really just out of sheer
necessity that I need to thinkout of the box here, because
(14:41):
what I'm doing, having thestellar resume, the awards, the
30 years and the greatreferences nothing was working
for me.
Beverley Glazer (14:52):
That's very important, what you just said,
because usually when you go intoa job interview, those are the
things you emphasize.
Nori Jabba (15:01):
Yeah, exactly.
So another thing that I cameaway with from a different
person was this whole concept ofcorporate culture, and I hadn't
really thought about it, youknow.
I mean I knew the corporateculture in my heart that I liked
in a company, but when I wasreally desperately trying to go
(15:21):
back to work and applying for,you know, maybe 20 jobs a week
or 10 jobs a week or whatever itis, it takes a lot of time to
apply for a job and customizeyour cover letter and all of
this.
It was like a full-time job.
But I was approaching it morelike throwing spaghetti at a
wall, like whoever accepts me,I'm taking it right Instead of
(15:43):
really thinking through.
And the jobs were good.
Right, the jobs seemed like agood fit.
But was the company a good fit?
Was the corporate culturereally something that was a good
fit for me?
And I wasn't really focused onthat.
So I started focusing on thatbecause my research that I did
(16:05):
for the book I learned fit isthe number one thing that
they're looking for in a jobinterview.
Number one, not experience, nothow much you know or how well
you talk, it's.
Are you a good fit?
So what does fit really mean?
So I came up with this conceptI called the fit model, which is
(16:25):
kind of a play on words, butyou know it's questions that you
ask yourself about the companyto evaluate and about yourself
to evaluate if you are truly agood fit.
And so I started talking aboutthat in interviews to evaluate
and about yourself to evaluateif you are truly a good fit.
And so I started talking aboutthat in interviews and I'm
(16:47):
telling you, if somebody talksabout what makes them a good fit
or what they think would makethem a good fit about this
company, and they start talkingabout the corporate culture,
they are much more likely to getthat job.
Beverley Glazer (16:57):
Good point, good point, good point.
And in this whole process youwrote a book called Keeping your
Seat at the Table.
What is that metaphor all?
Nori Jabba (17:08):
about.
Oh my goodness, the table isthe most perfect metaphor for
this, and especially for women.
Perfect metaphor for this andespecially for women.
You know, when we think aboutwork and we think about our
career projection and what itmeans to have a seat at the
table, when I do PowerPointpresentations, I show this
(17:33):
picture of a bunch of oldcartoon of old white men at the
table and you're at the otherend and that's kind of what we
think.
You know you're invited to havethis seat at the table.
But what I learned through thisprocess is that thinking about
success and what the table meansis completely different.
It's no longer for me.
Is it this corporate boardtable?
(17:55):
No.
So what the book is about iscreating your own table, really
defining what your purpose isand what you want, what success
means for you, and then buildingout a table of supporters and
mentors and coaches and peopleat your table for these various
different topics, all based onthis metaphor of the table.
(18:17):
So you know, each chapter inthe book is a play on words and
you can go on.
There could be a second bookbecause there are so many ways
to use this metaphor, but itreally comes down to the heart
of the table in women's lives.
It is so critical to us forthriving and for happiness.
It's where we nourish.
(18:38):
It's where we nourish, it'swhere we get romantic, it's
where we take care of others,it's where we grow and learn and
feed ourselves.
It really applies to everysingle aspect of our lives, so
that's why I use the tablemetaphor every single aspect of
(18:58):
our lives.
So that's why I use the tablemetaphor.
And so keeping your seat at thetable is all about flipping it
over, building a new table, notgetting pulled under, which is
about all these distractionsthat we have in life.
Dancing on the table is at theend and leaning on others at the
table, and it's really.
I had so much fun writing it.
Beverley Glazer (19:18):
And today you absolutely love your life yes, I
do.
And you found a new job, andwhat are lessons that you
learned?
Nori Jabba (19:29):
So this job, this job is not the job that when I
started this journey and decidedto go back to work after
consulting, it's not the job Ithought I would end up with.
It wasn't even on my radar ajob like this.
I work for a municipality.
I manage housing programs forthem and I'd always wanted to
work for a city but I couldnever get in because if you
(19:53):
don't start your career with thecity, it's very hard to jump in
without municipal experience.
I didn't really understand why.
I just knew that that was theway it was.
I'd applied for city jobs inthe past and, you know, didn't
even make it to the interviewprocess because I didn't have
that municipal experience excepta stint in grad school.
So it was kind of on my bucketlist to work for a city.
(20:14):
So through the process I hadkind of identified that as
something I always wanted to do,because I have a master's in
urban and regional planning andyet I never worked for a
municipality in urban planning.
So it would be fun, right, butit wasn't on my radar because I
would have had to go in at alower level than I felt I was
(20:36):
worthy of and I was looking forVP or director.
I had run my own business for10 years.
I had been a director and Iactually, in the job that I did
get with a nonprofit with one ofmy clients, hired me primarily
because the laws changed inCalifornia and for independent
(20:56):
contractors.
They completely changed thedefinition of an independent
contractor and it made it reallyhard to keep consulting.
So my client hired me and thenI was sort of stolen away by the
city that we had worked with.
And cities tend to do that theysteal from other cities.
(21:16):
They, you know they poach goodpeople.
But I would never have appliedfor a job that was at this lower
level or that.
You know I would have a boss somuch younger than me and here I
just decided, you know I'mgoing to go for the other
elements that are importantabout this job and it's not this
(21:38):
straight line arrow going up.
It's what I needed in my lifeat that time to allow me to have
work-life balance, to showcasesome of the skills that I have
to grow and learn, and you know,working for a city there are so
many different things you haveto learn that only take place in
(21:59):
government, and so having agovernment job, you know the big
, big learning curve, eventhough the job was sort of
levels below me.
It was challenging and still is.
And so, yeah, I just decidedI'm shifting what my priority is
.
I just decided I'm shiftingwhat my priority is.
(22:22):
Also, through the process,before I really got into writing
the book, I decided, if nobodywould hire me, that I was going
to start my own company.
That here I am in SiliconValley, I could do this startup.
I had this idea for a techcompany, that kind of combined
municipalities and urbanplanning, and this was what I
wanted to do.
But I realized that through theprocess no was what I wanted to
do.
But I realized that through theprocess no, I want to be a
writer.
That's really what my passionis.
(22:43):
I don't need to start a company.
That was for my ego, because Ineeded that seat at the table,
the way I had originallyencompassed it.
So through this process, I justratcheted back what my career
ambitions were, so that I couldlook at myself more holistically
, and what I really needed to doto be happy.
(23:03):
And it wasn't being vicepresident or CEO of a startup
and working, you know, 18 hourdays.
No, it was having a job thatfulfills me with a team that I
love, where I can do some goodin the community, and that's I'm
not going to say it's easybecause it's challenging, but I
(23:24):
have enough experience under mybelt and knowledge that I can do
this job, so I have confidence.
You know it's not.
It's not a big lift.
Beverley Glazer (23:33):
What are some quick tips that you could tell
others who are on the same boat?
Nori, there they keep onfeeling that they're not good
enough, they're too old, they'renot going to get back to the
workplace, they need that joband they keep getting shot down.
Confidence gets lower.
A couple of tips for them.
Nori Jabba (23:53):
Well, you know, building that confidence is huge
and that was a big part of myproblem too, because it's this
vicious circle, right Viciouscycle that you start.
Your confidence takes aknockdown because you've been
rejected or somebody may havesaid something in an interview
or the reason they didn't hireyou, and then suddenly you're
(24:14):
depleted.
And then by the next interviewand it just keeps taking you
down and down and down and youhave to stop.
You have to pull back andreally look at what's going on
and how you're projectingyourself.
And I spend several chapters inthe book really looking at
building that inner confidenceand strength.
And for me, I realized itreally starts with you
(24:39):
physically.
You know, being strong, gettingsleep, taking care of yourself
those simple things thateverybody talks about these days
are so important.
And you know I have a chapterabout strength and building
strength at the table andbuilding a strong table,
starting with your core, andgetting physically strong to
(25:00):
feel more confident aboutyourself, getting physically
strong to feel more confidentabout yourself.
So, building that confidenceand great self-talk.
You know, get a therapist,whatever you need to do, because
you do deserve this great joband you are special and
wonderful and you've got tobelieve in yourself.
If you don't believe inyourself, I guarantee you that's
(25:21):
coming through in an interview.
So stop, take some time foryourself.
Build that confidence.
Feel good about the clothesthat you're in.
I'm wearing this red blousebecause it's my power blouse.
It makes me feel great wheneverI wear it.
I love it and it gives meconfidence, so doing things like
(25:42):
that really help.
So I would start there.
And then the second thing isreally take a look at your skill
set and where you're lacking.
There is so much to learn inlife.
You know the technology changesso fast.
Now AI is huge.
I like to call AI ageisminterrupted, because we can use
(26:03):
AI to help us learn things sofast and get resources that we
wouldn't have had access tobefore.
So, instead of curling up,embrace it.
Go to one of your job centers,like here we have.
It's called NovaWorks and everymetropolitan area has it.
It's free, you can go there andthey will give you assessments
(26:26):
and they will help you get theskills you need.
There are also so many onlineresources for free skills, and
in my book I provide a big listof them.
But there's just no excuse fornot learning and be open to
learning, and definitely never,ever, say I'm too old for that,
because if you say that you areand that's going to come through
(26:49):
in an interview too so be thatperson that learns everything,
that is willing to learn newthings, that embraces AI for the
right reasons, use it to helpbuild your skill set.
Beverley Glazer (27:02):
So what I'm hearing, nori, is keep going,
stay positive, get your skillsup to date, but better than that
, more importantly, do not giveup.
Nori Jabba (27:14):
Yeah, do not give up and take the time to feel good
about yourself and take thathard.
Look in the mirror and you knowif you don't like what you see.
Why is that?
Maybe it's simply and I'm not abig fan of plastic surgery and
hair dye.
I actually stopped dyeing myhair as an experiment for the
(27:36):
book.
Would people treat medifferently?
Guess what I felt.
They treated me better once Istopped dyeing my hair, so I
kept.
I haven't gone back and it'skind of owning your age and
experience.
Today I was doing interviewsfor a job and interviewing
candidates and looking at theresumes I immediately could tell
(27:58):
who was older, who was youngeron the resumes, because the
older people would not put theiryears of graduation of their
degrees on their resume and Ikind of I don't like that.
I don't think it helps.
It just means yeah, you're oldand you're shamed.
So I say, put that year on yourresume and own it, own your
(28:20):
experience and stand up tall.
Beverley Glazer (28:22):
Thank you, nori .
So, in other words, be yourself, be proud.
And Nori Ndiayeba is a writer,a professional speaker and a
mentor, and her book Keepingyour Seat at the Table.
She shares an eight-stepjourney of growth and
transformation.
Where can people find you?
Nori Jabba (28:44):
Nora.
So it's on Amazon.
It's also on Audible.
I recorded the whole thingmyself, very hard to do and
really part of my journey aswell.
So Audible and Amazon.
Beverley Glazer (28:56):
Okay, terrific.
And all those links.
If you didn't get them, they'rein the show notes and they're
on my site too.
That's reinventimpossiblecom.
And so, my friends, what's nextfor you?
What's stopping you fromgetting more out of life?
Download the From Stuck toUnstoppable and find out, and
that also will be in the shownotes too.
(29:19):
You can connect with me,Beverley Glazer, on all social
media platforms and in mypositive group of women on
Facebook that's Women Over 50Rock, and you can schedule a
quick Zoom to talk to mepersonally.
Thank you for listening.
Have you enjoyed thisconversation?
Please join me next week,subscribe and get these episodes
(29:43):
in your inbox and drop us areview, and send it to a friend.
And remember you only have onelife, so live it with purpose.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Thank you for joining us.
You can connect with Bev on herwebsite, reinventimpossible.
com and, while you're there,join our newsletter Subscribe so
you don't miss an episode.
Until next time, keep agingwith purpose and passion and
celebrate life.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.