March 12, 2025 • 25 mins
What does it take to rebuild your life after unimaginable tragedy? Dr. Kimberly Harms knows this journey intimately. Born as a thalidomide baby with seven fingers, she defied an advisor who told her dental school was impossible, going on to become the first female president of the Minnesota Dental Association. But her greatest challenges came later – losing her mother to suicide, then facing her son Eric's suicide at just 19 years old.
The moment that transformed her grief journey came unexpectedly in a parking lot, when someone confronted her about how her suffering was affecting her remaining children. This wake-up call sparked her determination to "kick and scream and fight" her way out of the grief pit – not just for herself, but for everyone who loved her.
Dr. Harms shares practical wisdom from managing her dental practice through tragedy, including creating "crying rooms" and systems to help team members support each other through crisis. But perhaps most profound were the lessons she learned while establishing 65 libraries across Rwanda in her son's memory. There, genocide survivors who had lost everything taught her about true forgiveness – not forgetting, but choosing to build something new from devastation.
This conversation offers rare insight into how someone moves forward when life divides into "before" and "after." Dr. Harms doesn't sugarcoat the difficulty of this journey, emphasizing that finding joy again requires active fighting against negative self-talk and shame. Yet her message radiates hope: no matter what tragedy has occurred, love and joy remain possible if we're willing to fight for them.
Ready to transform your own challenges into purpose? Connect with host Beverley Glazer at reinventimpossible.com and discover how to move from stuck to unstoppable with her free checklist, available through the link in our show notes.
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And you might also enjoy Fit Stong Women Over 50, a podcast for the Becoming Elli Community. Where fit strong women motivate eachother to stay on their goals.
Resources:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to Aging with Purpose and Passion, the
podcast designed to inspire yourgreatness and thrive through
life.
Get ready to conquer your fears.
Here's your hostpsychotherapist, coach and
empowerment expert, BeverleyGlazer.
Beverley Glazer (00:38):
Are you ready to rise above your challenges
with purpose like never before?
Well, welcome to Aging withPurpose and Passion.
I'm Beverley Glazer and I'm atransformational coach and
therapist, and I help women tohave the confidence to create
the life they know they deserve.
And you can find me onreinventimpossiblecom or text me
in the show notes below.
I want you to meet KimberlyHarms, Dr Kimberly Harms.
(01:02):
She's a dentist, a commissionedofficer in the public health
service, a dental schoolprofessor, a grief counselor, a
deaf doula, a civil mediator,the first woman president of the
Minnesota Dental Association, anational spokesperson for the
American Dental Association, andshe's a best-selling author and
(01:26):
international speaker.
Kimberly has also been aroundthe block many, many times and
she helps others rise above thechallenges with strength,
resilience and a renewed senseof meaning.
Stay tuned to reclaim yourpower and move forward with
(01:46):
purpose, no matter what lifethrows your way.
I want to welcome you, kimberlybecause, boy, you have a lot to
say to this audience.
Welcome.
Kimberly Harms (01:59):
Thank you so much, Beverly.
Beverley Glazer (02:02):
Now, Kimberly, you were born with challenges.
Right from the get-go.
You were a thalidomide baby.
You were born with sevenfingers.
Right, I get missing.
Yeah, and how did that shapeyour early life?
Kimberly Harms (02:19):
Well, my mother was a hand model and so you know
that, yeah, it did affect herwhen I was born, that that you
know that did affect her when Iwas born.
Anytime you have a child that'sborn with disability, it's a
hard thing.
My spine was kind of deformed.
They didn't think I was goingto be walking, but it turned out
that wasn't as much a problem.
But what happened was myparents were divorced when I was
three and when I was six.
(02:40):
That's when they discoveredthat the littleomide had caused
those abnormalities and myfather called my mother and said
to her that it was her faultthat I was missing those fingers
, because on the waycross-country from from the east
coast to the west coast my dadwas in the navy.
They stopped at my mom'shometown of Cincinnati, ohio,
and in that one spot in thecountry they were testing out
(03:02):
the drug thalidomide.
Her best friend was taking itfor morning sickness.
My mother had morning sicknessand motion sickness from the
drive so she took some tablets.
It was being used in Europe.
There was no cause for alarm atthe time, but when she found
out that the thalidomide was thelikely culprit for my missing
fingers, it put her into anemotional tailspin.
(03:25):
She ended up going into amental hospital.
My dad took us and she got outof the hospital.
She said I want the kids backand he said, nope, I bought the
bedroom furniture no kids comingback.
So we were taken away from hermy mother's, you know, we were
her life and I, as a mothermyself, I can't imagine that
happening to me.
And she ended up back in theinstitution for the rest of her
life, that happening to me andshe ended up back in the
(03:45):
institution for the rest of herlife, eventually leading to her
suicide death about 10 yearslater.
So the travesty withthalidomide was really I mean,
I've survived well with themissing fingers but the biggest
travesty was what happened to mymom, the guilt, the shame, the
suffering she went throughbecause of that.
And but when I went to, when Igot to college, I met this
really cute guy named Jim Harmswho wanted to be a dentist, and
(04:08):
so I thought, well, maybe I'llbe a dentist.
But I thought, well, maybe theseven finger thing might stand
in the way.
So I went to an advisor, myadvisor back in the day.
This was the 70s now, as youremember the 70s, my advisors I
was back there smoking a bigcigar, and so there is no way
they would ever take you intodental school with seven fingers
.
Which made sense.
And I kind of thought, oh darn,I'll have to find a different
(04:29):
way to get Jim to marry me now,because, you know, dental
school's not going to work.
But as I walked out the door, hesaid something.
It changed my life.
He leaned back in his chair, heput his feet up on the desk,
was smoking a cigar and he saidbut maybe if you were a man they
would let you in.
Oh, I was an 18 year old.
You don't say that to an 18year old.
(04:49):
So instead of changing careers,I changed advisors, found one
who discovered that indeed, onehand holds a mirror, which I
could do.
The other goes to dental school.
I was in and I ended up.
It was a successful plan.
I got into dental school and Igot the guy and Jim and I were
married until his death, 44years later.
Beverley Glazer (05:08):
That is crazy.
So it's like why did you go todental school?
Because he was going to dentalschool.
Kimberly Harms (05:17):
This is the 70s.
This is not good life adviceOut there.
The 70s was a different time.
Beverley Glazer (05:24):
Totally, it really did.
And so from that beginning,which was really rough, and a
mom with bipolar disorder whicheventually took her life, you
went to dental school.
The two of you had a practice.
(05:44):
This was probably your dreamand totally ideal.
Kimberly Harms (05:50):
Absolutely.
We had a wonderful practice ina small town of Farmington,
minnesota, just exactly where wewanted to be, and we had three
beautiful children.
We were involved in the localcommunity.
I was on the school board, hewas on the Housing Redevelopment
Authority.
We just were.
It was just a wonderful life.
But then in 2007, my brotherdied suddenly a heart attack,
(06:18):
and at 56.
And then a month later, myhusband was diagnosed with liver
cancer and expected not to live.
And then, six months later, amiracle happened he got a
transplant.
And so we were on that rollercoaster of life.
We're up on the top again.
And then, six months after that, the worst thing that we could
possibly imagine happened to usOur 19-year-old brilliant,
loving, kind, caring son, eric,who was at Columbia University.
(06:40):
He was recruited by Columbia.
He was elected to studentgovernment at Columbia
University.
He was recruited by Columbia.
He was elected to studentgovernment at Columbia.
He was playing in the jazzprogram at Columbia, which was
his dream to study engineeringand play jazz piano in New York
City.
I mean, he had everything.
His dream was coming true.
He came home after the firstsemester.
He was on top of the world.
He even made the dean's list.
I mean just everything goingfor this kid.
(07:02):
And then he went back to schooland two weeks later his
girlfriend broke up with him,which is a normal part of life,
right, that happens to us.
But within 45 minutes, thatyoung, undeveloped, very
impulsive brain that made himsuch a good jazz pianist kind of
combined into a fatal cocktailand he took his own life 45
minutes after the breakup withhis girlfriend.
(07:25):
And our lives shattered.
We could not.
You know, I lost my mother tosuicide.
Now I lost my son to suicide.
I mean, what's the commondenominator?
Me right, it was just ahorrible, horrible time.
But I had something thathappened to me that changed my
life.
It was an encounter in aparking lot a few weeks after
(07:46):
Eric died, and you know anybodythat's had a traumatic loss.
You know, you can't eat, youcan't sleep, you're in the
zombie phase, you can hardlymove, you're in the depths of
the pit, you're trying to suckup the mud, trying to breathe.
I mean, it's just a horrible,horrible place.
And I was coming out and I wasin that terrible place and my
husband, jim, was talking to hiscousin who was in kind of an
intense discussion, and he cameover to me and he was wagging
(08:09):
his finger in my face Now I'm agrieving mother.
I'm not used to this.
Right now, you know, I'm alittle stressed Wagging his
finger in my face and he saiddon't you ever let your
remaining children feel thatthey are not enough?
Don't you do that to them?
And it was like a lightningbolt hit me, because I realized
that he had lost his brother atabout the same age and he felt
(08:31):
that he had lost his parents aswell.
And I was going down that samepath.
I mean, I was lost to everybody.
At that moment, you know,you're just so deep in that pit
you can't even think.
And it made me realize that mygrief affected everyone else.
And I had a husband who wasstill struggling with that,
recovering from the livertransplant.
I had two daughters who weresuffering.
We're a very close family and Idid not want them to suffer any
(08:55):
more than they had to already,and so I did not want to be an
additional source of sufferingfor them.
So I was determined at thatpoint to kick and scream and
fight and claw my way out ofthat grief pit, for myself, but
for them as well.
I wanted to be a good mother.
But it really helped me tofocus on what grief does to you
(09:16):
and how we can fall into thatpit.
I suffer from depression andI'm treated to well successfully
but we fall into that pit andwe don't realize that our
unhappiness affects everybodyaround us.
And so I just encourageeveryone and it takes time, it
took me years it doesn't happenovernight but to fight and kick
and scream and battle their wayout of that pit, because finding
(09:40):
that joy that you can findagain in life which I have found
again, couldn't, didn't think Iever would, but I've been able
to with a lot of super hard workand you know number of years
going by it's such a much betterplace to live and when you live
in a, in a state where you canhave joy and live without that
shroud over you, it affectsevery single member around you.
(10:02):
You're at.
My children, my grandchildren,are affected by the fact that I
don't live in that grief pitanymore.
Beverley Glazer (10:10):
It's amazing how you stayed focused, because,
in spite of the grief andbelieve me, the grief was
overwhelming you were alsorunning a dental practice, so
you had to suck it up and forthe rest of the world, you had
to open up your mouth and smileand be very confident, because
(10:34):
now you are practicing dentistand so not only a mother, not
only a grieving mother.
How did you pull it alltogether?
Because there's stress inrunning that practice and your
husband did not go into therapy.
You said that you did, but howdid you pull that together?
Because he's grieving too.
What went on during that timefor you?
Kimberly Harms (10:56):
Well, I kind of feel I had little angels
surrounding me that were notsupernatural but human beings,
and I got help from people, alot of support from my wonderful
friends, and so I was gettingthat support from my community.
But going to work was verydifficult and so you had to.
So when you're a dentist, justthink about going to the dentist
.
If you're going to have aperson with a high-speed drill
(11:19):
going into your mouth you know,drilling human tissue don't?
You want them to be completelyfocused on you, right?
You don't want them worryingabout something else.
We cannot be distracted, and soyou have to suck it up and you
have to kind of go and try tosmile.
What made it harder for me andfor my husband was we were in a
(11:39):
small town and everybody knew myson, eric, and they loved Eric
and they were all shocked.
It was a shock to a wholecommunity His funeral.
There were thousands of peoplethere.
It was just a shock.
And so when you're a dentist,you know I see my like eight or
nine patients that I've seendoing treatment.
Then you have the hygienepatient, so that multiplies it
to maybe about 20 or 30 peoplethat you come in contact with,
(12:00):
and each time, because it's asmall town, you have to, for the
first six months and the firstyear, you have to kind of come
in contact with the person thatfirst time.
After the grief incident, right,which is that uncomfortable
meeting, right and so it wasvery hard to get through that,
and so we worked really hard.
We developed some systems inour office because we had other
(12:23):
staff members.
I have another hygienist in myoffice who lost her son to
suicide after a breakup with agirlfriend when he was in high
school and then she lost anotherchild.
So we are all sufferingtogether.
I mean, we understood eachother so we developed some
systems in our office.
We have a crying room.
There's a room upstairs, abathroom we had by Z and we had
some, you know, makeup removerup there so that if you have it,
(12:44):
you know you're like you have abreakdown.
We kind of had a signal so wecould run upstairs and get
ourselves put together and thenthe rest of the team would help.
And I think that's what I did,and I think this is the other
thing that I learned that wassuch an important thing for my
healing is that if I just sufferthrough what I've been through
in my life and I don't tellanyone about it.
(13:06):
I don't try to help anybodyabout it.
It's useless.
The only value in what I wentthrough is that I can help other
people get through itthemselves.
And so a big part of my healingwas I was a speaker, a
professional speaker indentistry.
So I was speaking in dentistryfor a number of years about the
worst has happened.
Now, what?
How do you manage a crisis or acatastrophic loss in the dental
(13:27):
office or in a place ofbusiness when somebody is out of
commission?
They might come and they mightphysically be present, but they
are gone.
Their brain, they're in thezombie stage.
You know they're like trying tolook.
You know like they're happy,but they're not.
How do you come together as ateam and help the team get
through that?
And so I learned a lot, youknow, from my experience.
(13:48):
And then I went on to kind oftalk to other people about it,
and I'm doing that.
Now we have a podcast,rethinkingdeath Life, that we're
trying to help people andbusinesses understand what needs
to happen and how you can builda community by working through
grief and in an office space,and especially right now,
because people are leaving.
You know people leave work alot.
They change careers more thanwe did.
(14:09):
We would stay in one career awhole life, but the young people
are changing careers.
How do you keep them in a placewhere they feel they're valued?
Beverley Glazer (14:21):
And part of that is managing understanding
and managing grief as it occursin a group.
What did you learn fromgenocide survivors Because you
worked with them?
Kimberly Harms (14:29):
Oh, let me just tell you, the most amazing
people I have ever met are theRwandan genocide survivors and I
was again drawn.
You know, I think it's divineintervention in my case, I think
.
But I was drawn to RwandaShortly after, about a year
after Eric died.
We were working with Books forAfrica because my best friend,
(14:49):
one of my best friends, was onthe board to bring libraries to
Rwanda in Eric's name and Ericloved books.
He would rescue books fromlibraries.
He loved classical literature,so he'd rescue the classic books
Nobody wanted to read anymore.
He'd read through them.
You know, that's just kind ofwho he was, and so it was a
perfect way to honor him and wethought we'd go and do maybe you
(15:10):
know a couple libraries there.
But over the 10 years Icouldn't stop because I fell in
love with the Rwandans.
And we have 65 libraries there.
We have four law libraries, wehave medical libraries, dental
libraries, nursery libraries,university.
I mean I can't even tell youhow it happened.
Books for Africa is a greatgroup to work with, but what I
found by going there is theRwandans.
(15:31):
Not only did they go through agenocide, but the genocide was
perpetrated on them by theirneighbors.
It wasn't an invading armycoming in and wiping out a group
, it was their next doorneighbors that were doing it
with machetes and garden toolsand whatever.
And they realized and this isso important and I wish our
country would take a little noteof this they realized that if
(15:55):
they didn't forgive and try tounderstand and overcome the
differences, now how do youunderstand a genocide?
I never know, but they had toforgive.
If they did not forgive, thentheir children would be in the
same boat that they were in.
The genocide would repeatitself.
So they chose the hard task offorgiving the unforgivable to
(16:16):
give their children a betterplace to live.
And now I think it's 30 yearslater.
It is a beautiful countryRwanda is.
Last time I checked it was anumber one safety level for the
United States State Department,which is like Canada.
So people say, kim, how can yougo to Rwanda by yourself?
Because I do.
And I said, well, do you go toCanada by yourself?
And they, well, yeah, we go toCanada.
(16:37):
Well, then you go to Rwanda byyourself.
In fact, the Rwandans are alittle nervous when people come
here.
So I mean, I just, I just sayit, you know it's.
They built this beautifulcountry with a focus on
forgiveness and reconciliationat its heart, and they were the
best grief counselors ever.
When I went there shortly afterEric died, they surrounded when
(16:58):
they realized that theselibraries were memorial
libraries in honor of my deadson to give to their families.
They just I was in like flit.
I never felt loved like I didfrom those women, and men too.
Mostly it's women.
I ended up working mostly withwomen in Rwanda, but they were
just an amazing lesson and Ijust would like to recommend
anyone go and research what'shappened to that country.
(17:20):
There's always political issuesthat people don't agree with and
so on, but the reality is, ifyou take a look at Rwanda and
you look at some of thecountries around it and just
look at the safety level, justlook at it as one mechanism,
you'll find that country hasdone a fantastic job of
forgetting, forgiving.
They don't forget, they forgiveand they work through and they
(17:40):
form new families.
That was the thing that reallyhit me.
There was a group of AIDS womenwho were given AIDS during the
genocide by the perpetrators, sothe people that killed their
families and then raped them andgave them AIDS intentionally,
and they have grouped togetherto form a sewing cooperative and
they're like said we are nowour own family because we don't
(18:02):
fit into the other families,because we were raped, so they
found new families.
So if their family was gone,they would find new families.
What the heck?
We just don't think like that.
But it's one of the best thingsyou can learn from the Rwandans
is take your circumstance nowthe new normal is what I think
our latest term for that is andmake your life based upon what
(18:25):
you have now, and that's kind ofwhat I've done my life now is
based upon.
I have six grandchildren and Igo back and forth from
Minneapolis to Kansas City.
I've got two locations so I canbe part of their lives and I'm
making the best of my life nowand I think that's a key for
everyone who's been throughtrauma.
Beverley Glazer (18:43):
My question is because you kind of answered it
how can you tell someone what todo to move their life forward?
What would your biggest advicebe when they're stuck?
Kimberly Harms (19:01):
Fight, fight, fight, fight.
And understand that.
You know, sometimes when we getinto those situations, we have
a lot of negative self-talk.
You know and look, and I, andall the things I'm talking about
, I was there, so I'm talkingabout me.
When my son died and my motherdied, I got into that shame
(19:21):
cycle of well, what's the commondenominator here, kim?
Am I driving people to suicide?
What's going on here?
Right, and I was going downthat wormhole so deep and I
think that we need to giveourselves the same advice we
give our friends when we'retalking to ourselves.
So, self-talk, you got to talkto yourself like you love
(19:42):
yourself and help yourself and,no matter what has happened in
the past, forgive that.
You can't change the past.
We can't change it.
All we can do is start rightnow and move forward.
So forgive yourself and fightlike the dickens.
It's not going to happen byitself.
I don't really like the.
I do, like you know, theKugler-Ross kind of the stages
(20:05):
of grief.
That's something we all like.
But there's something calledthe warden's tasks of mourning.
I like the task because youknow, you accept, you go through
the grieving process, which isthe hard part, you adapt to the
new normality and then you findthat place for your loved one in
your heart and you can moveforward.
And I like the task.
It's a fight, it's a battle.
It's not going to happen byitself.
(20:26):
You've got to get out there andfight for it it's words.
Beverley Glazer (20:32):
In other words, don't wallow, don't wallow,
just move it forward.
Fight to move forward, right.
One final word, kim.
One final word to give someonehope when they're struggling joy
, no matter what has happened inyour life.
Kimberly Harms (20:52):
No matter what has happened that might have
divided your life into thebefore.
You know, kind of this was mylife before and then this has
happened and now it's after, andwe don't typically like the
after.
I mean, in my case, you can'tdo anything about that.
You can't do anything aboutthat.
What you can do is how youapproach the after.
Love every, you know, lovepeople.
(21:12):
That's like if there's onepurpose that you could have in
your life, it's to love people.
That's the greatest purposeever.
You can't go wrong with thatone.
Learn to love people, learn tofind your purpose in life and
focus on doing well in the after, knowing that you can't change
the past but you can change afuture and how you deal with it.
(21:33):
And just fight, fight, fightand know that love and joy can
be waiting you, no matter what,and that's a very wonderful
place to live, not just foryourself but for everybody
around you.
Thank, you.
Beverley Glazer (21:48):
Thank you, kimberly.
Kimberly Harms is a dentist whoserved as a commissioned
officer in the US Public HealthService.
She's a dental school professor, a grief counselor, a death
doula, a civil mediator and shewas the first woman president of
the Minnesota DentalAssociation.
(22:09):
She's a national spokespersonfor the American Dental
Association and a best-sellingauthor and speaker, helping
others to rise above theirchallenges with strength,
resilience and a new sense ofpurpose.
Here are some takeaways fromthis episode.
Allow yourself to feel.
(22:31):
The process of grief opens thedoor to healing.
Fight for it.
Moving forward doesn't meanmoving on.
It's about evolving through thepain and finding meaning along
the way.
And, no matter what life throwsat you, you're never too broken
(22:52):
to rebuild.
If you've been relating to thisepisode, think about one small
thing that you can do to movepast your struggles.
Perhaps it's getting in touchwith supportive people or
volunteering in the community tohelp others get through it, or
getting professional help foryourself.
Take one small baby step tomove forward.
(23:17):
For similar episodes on griefand resilience, check out
episode 104 and 108 of Agingwith Purpose and Passion, and if
you've enjoyed this episode,you may always also take a look
at Fit, strong Women Over 50.
That's a podcast for theBecoming Ellie community where
(23:37):
Fit, strong Women encourage andmotivate others to keep on to
their goals, and you can findthem on wwwbecomingelliecom and
that link will be in the shownotes as well.
So where can people find you,kimberly?
What are your links?
Kimberly Harms (23:58):
The best place is just go to my website,
drkimberlyharmscom.
Drkimberlyharmscom.
Or you can check out ourpodcast, which is
rethinkingdeathlife.
Beverley Glazer (24:11):
Perfect.
If you didn't catch those links, they will be in the show notes
and they will also be onreinventimpossiblecom.
And now, my friends, what'snext for you?
Are you just going through themotions or are you really
passionate about your life?
Get my free checklist to gofrom stuck to unstoppable, to
(24:32):
unlock your full potential, andthat link will also be in the
show notes.
You can connect with me,Beverly Glazer, on all social
media platforms and in mypositive group of women on
Facebook.
That's Women Over 50 Rock, andif you're looking for guidance
in your own transformation, Iinvite you to explore
reinventimpossiblecom.
(24:54):
Thank you for listening.
Have you enjoyed thisconversation?
Please subscribe so you don'tmiss the next one, and send this
episode to a friend, and alwaysremember that you only have one
life, so keep aging withpurpose and passion.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Thank you for joining us.
You can connect with Bev on herwebsite, reinventimpossiblecom
and, while you're there, joinour newsletter Subscribe so you
don't miss an episode.
Until next time, keep agingwith purpose and passion and
celebrate life.
Welcome to Aging with Purpose and Passion, the
podcast designed to inspire yourgreatness and thrive through
life.
Get ready to conquer your fears.
Here's your hostpsychotherapist, coach and
empowerment expert, BeverleyGlazer.
Beverley Glazer (00:38):
Are you ready to rise above your challenges
with purpose like never before?
Well, welcome to Aging withPurpose and Passion.
I'm Beverley Glazer and I'm atransformational coach and
therapist, and I help women tohave the confidence to create
the life they know they deserve.
And you can find me onreinventimpossiblecom or text me
in the show notes below.
I want you to meet KimberlyHarms, Dr Kimberly Harms.
(01:02):
She's a dentist, a commissionedofficer in the public health
service, a dental schoolprofessor, a grief counselor, a
deaf doula, a civil mediator,the first woman president of the
Minnesota Dental Association, anational spokesperson for the
American Dental Association, andshe's a best-selling author and
(01:26):
international speaker.
Kimberly has also been aroundthe block many, many times and
she helps others rise above thechallenges with strength,
resilience and a renewed senseof meaning.
Stay tuned to reclaim yourpower and move forward with
(01:46):
purpose, no matter what lifethrows your way.
I want to welcome you, kimberlybecause, boy, you have a lot to
say to this audience.
Welcome.
Kimberly Harms (01:59):
Thank you so much, Beverly.
Beverley Glazer (02:02):
Now, Kimberly, you were born with challenges.
Right from the get-go.
You were a thalidomide baby.
You were born with sevenfingers.
Right, I get missing.
Yeah, and how did that shapeyour early life?
Kimberly Harms (02:19):
Well, my mother was a hand model and so you know
that, yeah, it did affect herwhen I was born, that that you
know that did affect her when Iwas born.
Anytime you have a child that'sborn with disability, it's a
hard thing.
My spine was kind of deformed.
They didn't think I was goingto be walking, but it turned out
that wasn't as much a problem.
But what happened was myparents were divorced when I was
three and when I was six.
(02:40):
That's when they discoveredthat the littleomide had caused
those abnormalities and myfather called my mother and said
to her that it was her faultthat I was missing those fingers
, because on the waycross-country from from the east
coast to the west coast my dadwas in the navy.
They stopped at my mom'shometown of Cincinnati, ohio,
and in that one spot in thecountry they were testing out
(03:02):
the drug thalidomide.
Her best friend was taking itfor morning sickness.
My mother had morning sicknessand motion sickness from the
drive so she took some tablets.
It was being used in Europe.
There was no cause for alarm atthe time, but when she found
out that the thalidomide was thelikely culprit for my missing
fingers, it put her into anemotional tailspin.
(03:25):
She ended up going into amental hospital.
My dad took us and she got outof the hospital.
She said I want the kids backand he said, nope, I bought the
bedroom furniture no kids comingback.
So we were taken away from hermy mother's, you know, we were
her life and I, as a mothermyself, I can't imagine that
happening to me.
And she ended up back in theinstitution for the rest of her
life, that happening to me andshe ended up back in the
(03:45):
institution for the rest of herlife, eventually leading to her
suicide death about 10 yearslater.
So the travesty withthalidomide was really I mean,
I've survived well with themissing fingers but the biggest
travesty was what happened to mymom, the guilt, the shame, the
suffering she went throughbecause of that.
And but when I went to, when Igot to college, I met this
really cute guy named Jim Harmswho wanted to be a dentist, and
(04:08):
so I thought, well, maybe I'llbe a dentist.
But I thought, well, maybe theseven finger thing might stand
in the way.
So I went to an advisor, myadvisor back in the day.
This was the 70s now, as youremember the 70s, my advisors I
was back there smoking a bigcigar, and so there is no way
they would ever take you intodental school with seven fingers
.
Which made sense.
And I kind of thought, oh darn,I'll have to find a different
(04:29):
way to get Jim to marry me now,because, you know, dental
school's not going to work.
But as I walked out the door, hesaid something.
It changed my life.
He leaned back in his chair, heput his feet up on the desk,
was smoking a cigar and he saidbut maybe if you were a man they
would let you in.
Oh, I was an 18 year old.
You don't say that to an 18year old.
(04:49):
So instead of changing careers,I changed advisors, found one
who discovered that indeed, onehand holds a mirror, which I
could do.
The other goes to dental school.
I was in and I ended up.
It was a successful plan.
I got into dental school and Igot the guy and Jim and I were
married until his death, 44years later.
Beverley Glazer (05:08):
That is crazy.
So it's like why did you go todental school?
Because he was going to dentalschool.
Kimberly Harms (05:17):
This is the 70s.
This is not good life adviceOut there.
The 70s was a different time.
Beverley Glazer (05:24):
Totally, it really did.
And so from that beginning,which was really rough, and a
mom with bipolar disorder whicheventually took her life, you
went to dental school.
The two of you had a practice.
(05:44):
This was probably your dreamand totally ideal.
Kimberly Harms (05:50):
Absolutely.
We had a wonderful practice ina small town of Farmington,
minnesota, just exactly where wewanted to be, and we had three
beautiful children.
We were involved in the localcommunity.
I was on the school board, hewas on the Housing Redevelopment
Authority.
We just were.
It was just a wonderful life.
But then in 2007, my brotherdied suddenly a heart attack,
(06:18):
and at 56.
And then a month later, myhusband was diagnosed with liver
cancer and expected not to live.
And then, six months later, amiracle happened he got a
transplant.
And so we were on that rollercoaster of life.
We're up on the top again.
And then, six months after that, the worst thing that we could
possibly imagine happened to usOur 19-year-old brilliant,
loving, kind, caring son, eric,who was at Columbia University.
(06:40):
He was recruited by Columbia.
He was elected to studentgovernment at Columbia
University.
He was recruited by Columbia.
He was elected to studentgovernment at Columbia.
He was playing in the jazzprogram at Columbia, which was
his dream to study engineeringand play jazz piano in New York
City.
I mean, he had everything.
His dream was coming true.
He came home after the firstsemester.
He was on top of the world.
He even made the dean's list.
I mean just everything goingfor this kid.
(07:02):
And then he went back to schooland two weeks later his
girlfriend broke up with him,which is a normal part of life,
right, that happens to us.
But within 45 minutes, thatyoung, undeveloped, very
impulsive brain that made himsuch a good jazz pianist kind of
combined into a fatal cocktailand he took his own life 45
minutes after the breakup withhis girlfriend.
(07:25):
And our lives shattered.
We could not.
You know, I lost my mother tosuicide.
Now I lost my son to suicide.
I mean, what's the commondenominator?
Me right, it was just ahorrible, horrible time.
But I had something thathappened to me that changed my
life.
It was an encounter in aparking lot a few weeks after
(07:46):
Eric died, and you know anybodythat's had a traumatic loss.
You know, you can't eat, youcan't sleep, you're in the
zombie phase, you can hardlymove, you're in the depths of
the pit, you're trying to suckup the mud, trying to breathe.
I mean, it's just a horrible,horrible place.
And I was coming out and I wasin that terrible place and my
husband, jim, was talking to hiscousin who was in kind of an
intense discussion, and he cameover to me and he was wagging
(08:09):
his finger in my face Now I'm agrieving mother.
I'm not used to this.
Right now, you know, I'm alittle stressed Wagging his
finger in my face and he saiddon't you ever let your
remaining children feel thatthey are not enough?
Don't you do that to them?
And it was like a lightningbolt hit me, because I realized
that he had lost his brother atabout the same age and he felt
(08:31):
that he had lost his parents aswell.
And I was going down that samepath.
I mean, I was lost to everybody.
At that moment, you know,you're just so deep in that pit
you can't even think.
And it made me realize that mygrief affected everyone else.
And I had a husband who wasstill struggling with that,
recovering from the livertransplant.
I had two daughters who weresuffering.
We're a very close family and Idid not want them to suffer any
(08:55):
more than they had to already,and so I did not want to be an
additional source of sufferingfor them.
So I was determined at thatpoint to kick and scream and
fight and claw my way out ofthat grief pit, for myself, but
for them as well.
I wanted to be a good mother.
But it really helped me tofocus on what grief does to you
(09:16):
and how we can fall into thatpit.
I suffer from depression andI'm treated to well successfully
but we fall into that pit andwe don't realize that our
unhappiness affects everybodyaround us.
And so I just encourageeveryone and it takes time, it
took me years it doesn't happenovernight but to fight and kick
and scream and battle their wayout of that pit, because finding
(09:40):
that joy that you can findagain in life which I have found
again, couldn't, didn't think Iever would, but I've been able
to with a lot of super hard workand you know number of years
going by it's such a much betterplace to live and when you live
in a, in a state where you canhave joy and live without that
shroud over you, it affectsevery single member around you.
(10:02):
You're at.
My children, my grandchildren,are affected by the fact that I
don't live in that grief pitanymore.
Beverley Glazer (10:10):
It's amazing how you stayed focused, because,
in spite of the grief andbelieve me, the grief was
overwhelming you were alsorunning a dental practice, so
you had to suck it up and forthe rest of the world, you had
to open up your mouth and smileand be very confident, because
(10:34):
now you are practicing dentistand so not only a mother, not
only a grieving mother.
How did you pull it alltogether?
Because there's stress inrunning that practice and your
husband did not go into therapy.
You said that you did, but howdid you pull that together?
Because he's grieving too.
What went on during that timefor you?
Kimberly Harms (10:56):
Well, I kind of feel I had little angels
surrounding me that were notsupernatural but human beings,
and I got help from people, alot of support from my wonderful
friends, and so I was gettingthat support from my community.
But going to work was verydifficult and so you had to.
So when you're a dentist, justthink about going to the dentist
.
If you're going to have aperson with a high-speed drill
(11:19):
going into your mouth you know,drilling human tissue don't?
You want them to be completelyfocused on you, right?
You don't want them worryingabout something else.
We cannot be distracted, and soyou have to suck it up and you
have to kind of go and try tosmile.
What made it harder for me andfor my husband was we were in a
(11:39):
small town and everybody knew myson, eric, and they loved Eric
and they were all shocked.
It was a shock to a wholecommunity His funeral.
There were thousands of peoplethere.
It was just a shock.
And so when you're a dentist,you know I see my like eight or
nine patients that I've seendoing treatment.
Then you have the hygienepatient, so that multiplies it
to maybe about 20 or 30 peoplethat you come in contact with,
(12:00):
and each time, because it's asmall town, you have to, for the
first six months and the firstyear, you have to kind of come
in contact with the person thatfirst time.
After the grief incident, right,which is that uncomfortable
meeting, right and so it wasvery hard to get through that,
and so we worked really hard.
We developed some systems inour office because we had other
(12:23):
staff members.
I have another hygienist in myoffice who lost her son to
suicide after a breakup with agirlfriend when he was in high
school and then she lost anotherchild.
So we are all sufferingtogether.
I mean, we understood eachother so we developed some
systems in our office.
We have a crying room.
There's a room upstairs, abathroom we had by Z and we had
some, you know, makeup removerup there so that if you have it,
(12:44):
you know you're like you have abreakdown.
We kind of had a signal so wecould run upstairs and get
ourselves put together and thenthe rest of the team would help.
And I think that's what I did,and I think this is the other
thing that I learned that wassuch an important thing for my
healing is that if I just sufferthrough what I've been through
in my life and I don't tellanyone about it.
(13:06):
I don't try to help anybodyabout it.
It's useless.
The only value in what I wentthrough is that I can help other
people get through itthemselves.
And so a big part of my healingwas I was a speaker, a
professional speaker indentistry.
So I was speaking in dentistryfor a number of years about the
worst has happened.
Now, what?
How do you manage a crisis or acatastrophic loss in the dental
(13:27):
office or in a place ofbusiness when somebody is out of
commission?
They might come and they mightphysically be present, but they
are gone.
Their brain, they're in thezombie stage.
You know they're like trying tolook.
You know like they're happy,but they're not.
How do you come together as ateam and help the team get
through that?
And so I learned a lot, youknow, from my experience.
(13:48):
And then I went on to kind oftalk to other people about it,
and I'm doing that.
Now we have a podcast,rethinkingdeath Life, that we're
trying to help people andbusinesses understand what needs
to happen and how you can builda community by working through
grief and in an office space,and especially right now,
because people are leaving.
You know people leave work alot.
They change careers more thanwe did.
(14:09):
We would stay in one career awhole life, but the young people
are changing careers.
How do you keep them in a placewhere they feel they're valued?
Beverley Glazer (14:21):
And part of that is managing understanding
and managing grief as it occursin a group.
What did you learn fromgenocide survivors Because you
worked with them?
Kimberly Harms (14:29):
Oh, let me just tell you, the most amazing
people I have ever met are theRwandan genocide survivors and I
was again drawn.
You know, I think it's divineintervention in my case, I think
.
But I was drawn to RwandaShortly after, about a year
after Eric died.
We were working with Books forAfrica because my best friend,
(14:49):
one of my best friends, was onthe board to bring libraries to
Rwanda in Eric's name and Ericloved books.
He would rescue books fromlibraries.
He loved classical literature,so he'd rescue the classic books
Nobody wanted to read anymore.
He'd read through them.
You know, that's just kind ofwho he was, and so it was a
perfect way to honor him and wethought we'd go and do maybe you
(15:10):
know a couple libraries there.
But over the 10 years Icouldn't stop because I fell in
love with the Rwandans.
And we have 65 libraries there.
We have four law libraries, wehave medical libraries, dental
libraries, nursery libraries,university.
I mean I can't even tell youhow it happened.
Books for Africa is a greatgroup to work with, but what I
found by going there is theRwandans.
(15:31):
Not only did they go through agenocide, but the genocide was
perpetrated on them by theirneighbors.
It wasn't an invading armycoming in and wiping out a group
, it was their next doorneighbors that were doing it
with machetes and garden toolsand whatever.
And they realized and this isso important and I wish our
country would take a little noteof this they realized that if
(15:55):
they didn't forgive and try tounderstand and overcome the
differences, now how do youunderstand a genocide?
I never know, but they had toforgive.
If they did not forgive, thentheir children would be in the
same boat that they were in.
The genocide would repeatitself.
So they chose the hard task offorgiving the unforgivable to
(16:16):
give their children a betterplace to live.
And now I think it's 30 yearslater.
It is a beautiful countryRwanda is.
Last time I checked it was anumber one safety level for the
United States State Department,which is like Canada.
So people say, kim, how can yougo to Rwanda by yourself?
Because I do.
And I said, well, do you go toCanada by yourself?
And they, well, yeah, we go toCanada.
(16:37):
Well, then you go to Rwanda byyourself.
In fact, the Rwandans are alittle nervous when people come
here.
So I mean, I just, I just sayit, you know it's.
They built this beautifulcountry with a focus on
forgiveness and reconciliationat its heart, and they were the
best grief counselors ever.
When I went there shortly afterEric died, they surrounded when
(16:58):
they realized that theselibraries were memorial
libraries in honor of my deadson to give to their families.
They just I was in like flit.
I never felt loved like I didfrom those women, and men too.
Mostly it's women.
I ended up working mostly withwomen in Rwanda, but they were
just an amazing lesson and Ijust would like to recommend
anyone go and research what'shappened to that country.
(17:20):
There's always political issuesthat people don't agree with and
so on, but the reality is, ifyou take a look at Rwanda and
you look at some of thecountries around it and just
look at the safety level, justlook at it as one mechanism,
you'll find that country hasdone a fantastic job of
forgetting, forgiving.
They don't forget, they forgiveand they work through and they
(17:40):
form new families.
That was the thing that reallyhit me.
There was a group of AIDS womenwho were given AIDS during the
genocide by the perpetrators, sothe people that killed their
families and then raped them andgave them AIDS intentionally,
and they have grouped togetherto form a sewing cooperative and
they're like said we are nowour own family because we don't
(18:02):
fit into the other families,because we were raped, so they
found new families.
So if their family was gone,they would find new families.
What the heck?
We just don't think like that.
But it's one of the best thingsyou can learn from the Rwandans
is take your circumstance nowthe new normal is what I think
our latest term for that is andmake your life based upon what
(18:25):
you have now, and that's kind ofwhat I've done my life now is
based upon.
I have six grandchildren and Igo back and forth from
Minneapolis to Kansas City.
I've got two locations so I canbe part of their lives and I'm
making the best of my life nowand I think that's a key for
everyone who's been throughtrauma.
Beverley Glazer (18:43):
My question is because you kind of answered it
how can you tell someone what todo to move their life forward?
What would your biggest advicebe when they're stuck?
Kimberly Harms (19:01):
Fight, fight, fight, fight.
And understand that.
You know, sometimes when we getinto those situations, we have
a lot of negative self-talk.
You know and look, and I, andall the things I'm talking about
, I was there, so I'm talkingabout me.
When my son died and my motherdied, I got into that shame
(19:21):
cycle of well, what's the commondenominator here, kim?
Am I driving people to suicide?
What's going on here?
Right, and I was going downthat wormhole so deep and I
think that we need to giveourselves the same advice we
give our friends when we'retalking to ourselves.
So, self-talk, you got to talkto yourself like you love
(19:42):
yourself and help yourself and,no matter what has happened in
the past, forgive that.
You can't change the past.
We can't change it.
All we can do is start rightnow and move forward.
So forgive yourself and fightlike the dickens.
It's not going to happen byitself.
I don't really like the.
I do, like you know, theKugler-Ross kind of the stages
(20:05):
of grief.
That's something we all like.
But there's something calledthe warden's tasks of mourning.
I like the task because youknow, you accept, you go through
the grieving process, which isthe hard part, you adapt to the
new normality and then you findthat place for your loved one in
your heart and you can moveforward.
And I like the task.
It's a fight, it's a battle.
It's not going to happen byitself.
(20:26):
You've got to get out there andfight for it it's words.
Beverley Glazer (20:32):
In other words, don't wallow, don't wallow,
just move it forward.
Fight to move forward, right.
One final word, kim.
One final word to give someonehope when they're struggling joy
, no matter what has happened inyour life.
Kimberly Harms (20:52):
No matter what has happened that might have
divided your life into thebefore.
You know, kind of this was mylife before and then this has
happened and now it's after, andwe don't typically like the
after.
I mean, in my case, you can'tdo anything about that.
You can't do anything aboutthat.
What you can do is how youapproach the after.
Love every, you know, lovepeople.
(21:12):
That's like if there's onepurpose that you could have in
your life, it's to love people.
That's the greatest purposeever.
You can't go wrong with thatone.
Learn to love people, learn tofind your purpose in life and
focus on doing well in the after, knowing that you can't change
the past but you can change afuture and how you deal with it.
(21:33):
And just fight, fight, fightand know that love and joy can
be waiting you, no matter what,and that's a very wonderful
place to live, not just foryourself but for everybody
around you.
Thank, you.
Beverley Glazer (21:48):
Thank you, kimberly.
Kimberly Harms is a dentist whoserved as a commissioned
officer in the US Public HealthService.
She's a dental school professor, a grief counselor, a death
doula, a civil mediator and shewas the first woman president of
the Minnesota DentalAssociation.
(22:09):
She's a national spokespersonfor the American Dental
Association and a best-sellingauthor and speaker, helping
others to rise above theirchallenges with strength,
resilience and a new sense ofpurpose.
Here are some takeaways fromthis episode.
Allow yourself to feel.
(22:31):
The process of grief opens thedoor to healing.
Fight for it.
Moving forward doesn't meanmoving on.
It's about evolving through thepain and finding meaning along
the way.
And, no matter what life throwsat you, you're never too broken
(22:52):
to rebuild.
If you've been relating to thisepisode, think about one small
thing that you can do to movepast your struggles.
Perhaps it's getting in touchwith supportive people or
volunteering in the community tohelp others get through it, or
getting professional help foryourself.
Take one small baby step tomove forward.
(23:17):
For similar episodes on griefand resilience, check out
episode 104 and 108 of Agingwith Purpose and Passion, and if
you've enjoyed this episode,you may always also take a look
at Fit, strong Women Over 50.
That's a podcast for theBecoming Ellie community where
(23:37):
Fit, strong Women encourage andmotivate others to keep on to
their goals, and you can findthem on wwwbecomingelliecom and
that link will be in the shownotes as well.
So where can people find you,kimberly?
What are your links?
Kimberly Harms (23:58):
The best place is just go to my website,
drkimberlyharmscom.
Drkimberlyharmscom.
Or you can check out ourpodcast, which is
rethinkingdeathlife.
Beverley Glazer (24:11):
Perfect.
If you didn't catch those links, they will be in the show notes
and they will also be onreinventimpossiblecom.
And now, my friends, what'snext for you?
Are you just going through themotions or are you really
passionate about your life?
Get my free checklist to gofrom stuck to unstoppable, to
(24:32):
unlock your full potential, andthat link will also be in the
show notes.
You can connect with me,Beverly Glazer, on all social
media platforms and in mypositive group of women on
Facebook.
That's Women Over 50 Rock, andif you're looking for guidance
in your own transformation, Iinvite you to explore
reinventimpossiblecom.
(24:54):
Thank you for listening.
Have you enjoyed thisconversation?
Please subscribe so you don'tmiss the next one, and send this
episode to a friend, and alwaysremember that you only have one
life, so keep aging withpurpose and passion.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Thank you for joining us.
You can connect with Bev on herwebsite, reinventimpossiblecom
and, while you're there, joinour newsletter Subscribe so you
don't miss an episode.
Until next time, keep agingwith purpose and passion and
celebrate life.
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