Episode 208: McXal and His Honorable Reviews (Presented by Patreon.com/AnHonorablePod)

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
This is an Honorable Mention with JeffSchwartz and Shane Haggedorn, part of the
Creative Control networking podcast. It's Tuesdayand you know what that means. Happy
too for Tuesday, and welcome toanother chapter of an Honorable Mention, the
Essential Ring of Honor retrospective podcast coveringthe most successful independent wrestling promotion of this

(00:21):
generation. I'm your host, JeffSchwartz, going solo again, but I
am delighted to be here. Iam not joined alongside by Shane Hagadorn today.
He is the of course a Ringof Honor alumni and all the other
titles. He is the Code ofHonor author, which is what he's doing
right now as we speak, writingaway. Shane Haggedorn not by my side

(00:43):
this week, but today I amgoing to be joined by a really fantastic
gent mcaxell. Mccaxell, mcsall.You know him from us citing him in
past episodes for his notes on showshe's reviewed. But he'll be joining me
today here in a bit. Justwant to give you guys a little bit

(01:03):
of news and notes right at thetop. I am just now a couple
of days away from heading into surgeryso I'm having ankle surgery. It's a
fairly invasive procedure from what I've beentold. I do not know when I
will be back on the pod.Obviously, hag it On is busy writing

(01:29):
the book, being a dad,being a husband, and working for a
e W. So the pod isgoing to go on a little bit of
a hiatus until I can kind ofcome down off some pain meds and resume
a little bit of normalcy here inthe coming days and weeks. So wanted
to get this pod out and introduceyou guys to mix All and his incredible

(01:53):
journey to Ring of Honor, andhe's going to be back for part two
and you'll hear why during the courseof today's episode. I want to thank
everybody who supports us over at Patreondot com, Backslash and Honorable Pod.
I am going to be uploading contentdaily while I am down and recovering and

(02:15):
kind of processing this whole austrigonum surgery. I basically have shattered the back of
my foot and heel, and we'rehoping fingers crossed when I go in there,
they're not going to find anything bonewise attached to attending or puncture an

(02:35):
Achilles, So shout out to doctorCharlotte. Please do your job and don't
hurt me. I'm sure I'll bein great hands. If you'd like to
email us while I'm on the endwith some Patreon recommendations, things you'd like
to see over there and patreon dotcom backslash and honorable pod. You can
email us at an Honorable Mention atgmail dot com. Both Shane haggittor and

(02:59):
in my cell read the email,So send us, Send us some email,
send us some goody show interview suggestions. If you'd like to possibly have
any suggestions on a guest for ourHonorable Journey episodes, please send it over
us to our Gmail account and we'llrespond in kind. All two hundred and

(03:21):
eight episodes plus bonus content available withads over on an Honorable Mention dot wicksite
dot com backslash Maine. That's anHonorable Mention dot wix si te dot com
backslash Maine. We are brought toyou by the Creative Control Network. Be
sure to follow the head of aCreative Control Network, mister Joe Pheney.

(03:43):
He's on Twitter at Jake Hahaha anyy through a d and at the CC
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Be sure to follow the man makesour sound so round. The Scientists of
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(04:06):
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ZT and he delivers us the bestintro and outro every single week, making
sure that we sound cooler than theother side of the pillow. Want to

(04:26):
hear the ad free version of thisshow and get it early. Become a
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(04:46):
more. Support the show at pagereondot com slash an Horble pod and get
early, add free access, andbe worthy of an honorable mention. Well,
let's dive into it. I thinkhe's worthy of an honorable mentioned probably
presented by Patreon dot com backslash anhonorable pod. Let's welcome to the show.
A man of many names mix All, Nick Gaxell, mix Al,

(05:11):
Mixel, Mick x Al, Mickx L. If he had to go
from DO to B the TNA,he could be Mick x L. But
nix All joins the show. Hey, best reviewers and definitely a piece of
source material for Haggard On and Ias we have done this podcast. Thanks

(05:33):
for joining us, man, Thankyou so much. I'm so excited to
sound cooler than the other side ofa pillow and be treated by the cleaner
several spaces of audio. I'm veryflat to be here. Thank you so
much. As you can tell aregular listener of this show all the diatribe

(05:54):
that comes out of my mouth forlike, I've dropped enough subtle hen so
it's it's nice to finally be likeThese honorable Journey episodes are always so fun
to do for me, and especiallylike the one on one element of it,
because we spend like forty minutes beforethe show doing a podcast about our

(06:15):
podcast, and then we do thepodcast. Let me tell you. I've
learned so much about Jeff in thelast boy minutes. I mean, I
am my own fair. So wehave this guy that used to host Sports
Center here in the State's Keith Olberman. He's a very intelligent broadcaster. I
would say he's probably like the modernday Walter Cronkite, like, does a

(06:39):
lot of politics. I listened tohis podcast every single day, and he
does a daily, like forty fiveminutes show about, you know, the
news of the country, and there'sa sports segment that he does, and
then he does a subject a sectionat the end of his show where he

(07:00):
says, we're gonna do my favoritetopic. Now we're gonna talk about me,
and then he tells a story fromhis broadcasting career. So it's really
funny. Um, Like, Keithis really funny and well spoken, and
I could only hope to be halfas good a broadcaster as he is.
Um I take half. You needyou need me to a great head,

(07:21):
don't you. Yeah, yeah,you're done a wonderful job. Thank you
so much for having me. Oh, thank you, thank you. You're
very welcome. No, like,so you and I we've we've known of
each other, We've never met unfortunately, which you know, I think is
the one hard part about having somany friends that would come over form like

(07:45):
WrestleMania weekends from the UK back inthe old days. Um, but you
never made the WrestleMania weekend trip withthe rest of the UK mob. I
didn't know. Now I was awhole student for UM. I mean,
we'll we'll talk about you know,this sort of the two thousand and three,
four or five six seven, likeyou know, the dream of again,

(08:05):
like you said, across the pondis probably a bit beyond my finances
at that point. Probably s I'mspending so much money on Ring of one
of Davids if I'm honest. Butyeah, yeah, I canna say it's
never met, but yeah, thisis. It's been lovely to chat a
little bit, like you said,put um a bit of a face to
the name and say what's on.So well, it's uh, it's great

(08:28):
to like meet and talk to people. And obviously we're doing this over skype,
so we're not meeting in person,but like we'll be having a big
hug if it was in person.Now can absolutely and and you know the
Ring of Honor fan base UM fromback in the day and and slowly but
surely kind of staying in contact now, um with some of the people from

(08:54):
back then. Um, it's alwaysgood to follow up and like share their
own unique perspective because none of us, no matter how many shows you went
to, whether you went to twohundred plus shows where you went to two
shows, nobody has the same viewof twenty years of Ring of Honor.

(09:16):
And we're coming up in less thanfive months on the twenty first birthday,
Ring of Honor will be old enoughto drink. Are you are aging us,
making us sound so old? Well, I mean we're taping this on
October the eleventh, in four daysthat will be thirty seven. So age

(09:39):
is nothing but a number. It'show you feel. Okay, Well,
at the end of this month,I'm fat, yeah, and I feel
old. And that was before youjust pointed out how long we're play from
watching Ring of s Yeah, Imean, it's it's a crazy, crazy
journey through the years. I guessit didn't mean to use through the years.
That's another podcast. My good friendsTrevor and Matt play them royalties now

(10:05):
yeah. Well, I mean,hey, they were the inspiration, but
I just think we're so fortunate tobe the age that we are where we
were old enough to appreciate what Ringof Honor brought to the table. But
before we actually talk about Ring ofHonor itself, there is this idea of

(10:28):
wrestling in your view of it beforeRing of Honor, And I think that's
the one thing that all fans andRing of Honor share in common, is
that they looked at wrestling in acertain way, then they saw how a
Ring of Honor did it, andthen they viewed it a totally different way.

(10:48):
So before you saw a Ring ofHonor for the first time, what
was your exposure to wrestling and USwrestling as well. Yeah, I mean,
I mean, I'm not from wildhood. I'm not massively different to many
other people. And I watched WWF. I love the old me Warrior sort
of moved on a little bit.I love bro Hartshawn Michaels. I think
the kicker for me to getting intolet's say, the Ring of Honor,

(11:11):
was someone showed me a bootleg tapeof uh is it Heatwave of ninety nine
RVD jerylyn Um. Yeah, thatwould have was being Damn and Sambo against
Hya Boosa and Gensation Zaki. Yeah, so that would have been around yeah,

(11:31):
late ninety nine to two thousand andand it absolutely blew me away and
from a I'd sort of drifted awayfrom watching wrestling regularly at that point.
But that and even to this day, and you see here lots of criticism
about the way RVD like the typicalRVD formula match, but even to this
day like ecwerr or Bandam doesn't matter, like I'll watch it. I love

(11:54):
that guy like it's but so thatthat sort of I guess brought me in.
And then in the UK at thestart of two thousand we had paper
like we had I think four WWFpay per views a year on Channel four
which is like free free free viewTV and Royal Rumble two thousand. Obviously

(12:15):
Cats Jack Chapple age as a youknow, as a stay young as some
of my teenagers at that point.But that again linked to the ec W
stuff that I've seen that sort ofI don't want to say different style,
but that's sort of more gutteral,gritty show. With the debut of Tests,
Oh yes, so, I meanwhat a moment though, the pop
that you know, the countdown,the pop, the angle in mere seconds,

(12:41):
I Meetium. To this day,I could watch for and or two
thousands show Hardy's Dudley's Um yeah umMay Young ye, but yeah yeah,
I love that show. And sothat that sort of, I guess,
really affirms I guess my my rebirthas as a fan from that point.
And from there I remember vividly seekingout I don't want to age just both,

(13:07):
but through tape trading, finding awaist, get ECW shows in the
UK, and then that obviously spreadto Japanese statistically, you know, you
know, following off from around orthe death Match to ninety five tournament or
whatever it was. So that's sortof and then not that I can't pretend
I was hardcore enough from an easyI'll be found to really mourn it's passing

(13:28):
in two thousand and one. Butthe piece that I took away from it,
and I think, what to yourpoint, the gap that ring on
the field as a wrestling fan forme and I guess for those others is
the visible effort and visible like It'snot always a smooth presentation, it's not
always perfect, but you never,particularly in those early years, you never

(13:50):
felt like you were watching someone notgiven one hundred percent or if they were
not giving one hundred percent, theydidn't really last, Like I didn't matter
if they were the best wrestlers,didn't matter if it was the first anniversary
show and you're watching eight million peoplein a scramble match for an hour and
a half, like you don't feellike they're not trying to absolute best,
to do absolutely everything, and thatkind of I think that that spirit,

(14:11):
that effort that anything can happen.Actually, it is the kind of thing
that spoke spoke to me as therest of rand Mima still does today,
you know, I do, andI think the idea of that visceral gritty
like not necessarily like to say thatit's real or or you know it's unscripted

(14:39):
or you know there's no format oranything, but it feels closer to being
believable that what you're seeing is yeahand struggle, but yeah, exactly that,
and like you know it's a Iguess, yeah, it's a visceral
performance art. You don't you don'twant to feel like you're watching something and
feel like it's going through the motionsor like like it's insulting intelligence. You

(15:00):
want something that feels as believable asa performance that can get and that I
guess that's sort that's the piece thatspeaks to me, and even to this
day, like overly sanitized corporate wrestlingisn't necessarily the thing that necessarily pulls me
in as a as an adult,as an adult consumer of professional wrestling.
Now. You know, so,I think with the way wrestling is presented

(15:28):
like it's it's packaged for TV essentially, and that's awww E. They're presenting
a television product. Yeah, presentinga television wrestling product. The O there's
a television entertainment to a certain way. And that's not that that's not I'm

(15:48):
not remotely criticizing that at all.It's just there are elements of that and
that that this is true of WWthen t W now it's t of aw
now like it. There's elements ofit which don't necessary really speak to me.
But that's completely fine. That that'syou know, the nuts and bolts
are putting together a good television wrestlingshow aren't always aren't going to speak to

(16:11):
everyone. And I think that wasparticularly in the early two thousands where I
think Bring upon a scooped me upas a fan was that it wasn't necessarily
a product for the masses, butit was a product for the people who
had a certain view of what theywanted to see that it didn't Like you
said that, it doesn't need tobe blood and guts, it doesn't need

(16:33):
to be overly theatrical. It justneeds to be authentic and true to those
performers and and hard hitting enough topull you in as a fan. And
yeah, I guess that was whatreally spoke to me, particularly in those
early years. So one thing youjust said that really kind of registered with

(16:53):
me, and I never really thoughtabout it this way, but I I
think it's really a transformative thought,is that no, this legitimately Like I
was trying to figure out how torespond to this, and it's I don't
want to like dig the the knifedeeper into the back of Sinclair. But

(17:18):
like with AW I mean, whatthe hell a w W W E they're
not lying to you about what theyare Sinclair. I felt like they they
wanted to be a televised wrestling productlike AW is, but they just didn't

(17:38):
have enough to like go all theway with it. They couldn't give you
the the they wanted to say,like we're sto ring of honor. Oh,
but yes, we're homogenized to goin early on. We'll get to

(17:59):
that, we'll get to them,that they'll get their flowers and basically with
early day roge, like you mentionedthe tape trading alement and that I think
is the common denominator amongst every earlyday's ring of honor. Fan. You're

(18:23):
trading tapes, how does that workin the UK, Because I feel like
if all the footage that you're tradingfor is from the States or from Japan,
like I didn't, I didn't reallyhave a lot of demand to get
like FWA or anything. I mean, I now I'd like to see more

(18:47):
of it, but I think,um, but like World of Sport like
that stuff wasn't easily accessible. Umthat was like I think there were two
different well I mean, I don'tknow if it's in UM in the US,
but there were two different World ofSport compilation tapes that were like floating

(19:07):
around like every tape trader. SoI like it doesn't matter who as they
all had the same like two orthree two US. So yeah, tape
trading, it's it's probably a glorifiedway of saying piracy and all honesty,
like they're gonna say so like you'llget it's a good way. So you'll
probably get one person you get tapeX that they'll do this, that they'll

(19:30):
take it, they'll copy it,they'll trade it. Um. And I
think between that you get a legalget a network of people, and they'll
be all be getting different things.They'll be getting things, and then you're
sort of you're generously say you'll tradewhat you've got. And then so between
like a group of you, you'llbuild up enough I guess a stash of

(19:51):
of content that and then in allhonesty, the rest of it is probably
like I said, it's just piracy, just people selling selling tapes online like
I'm I'm and that's in all honestylayers for me. How I got my
start in watching Ringovana, for instance, um I was. I happened to
like work right or like the tapetad who he had. He had a

(20:11):
website, and I happened to likejust drop a random review of something I'd
watched onto his site and he emailedme probably I want to say probably AOL
went to message me in all honestyum and asked by wanted to do more,
and he would attached it to hisnews lawyer. He sent out,
um, and you'd give me freetapes. I'm like, you know,
a poor, money hungry living athome young man. I haven't got a

(20:34):
lot of money to blow on wrestlingtales like free wrestling. I'm in um
not thinking of the legalities of Yeah, he probably shouldn't be sending out emails
to people to try and buy piratedwrestling, but yeah, and so I
remember. I don't know if youremember to remember two thousand and two,
so Loki wins the World Taiwan andthere was an article I'm sure it was

(20:56):
in Progressing Illustrated rather than Our Slamin the UK, this article about about
that match, the heat, theour lot, the hour long match,
and I do I have the magazine. You can say it was a brilliantly,
brilliantly written article. I can vividly, vividly remember, like the picture
of Loki holding about like to thisday, I remember it and everything that

(21:21):
our reef soundon was like have yougot this? And he said yeah,
And so I remember, and thisI guess Haggard will be able to fact
chest this because I'm sure I rememberthat show was the first ring of one
a show I watched, and Isat down and did a review of it,
and I remember Christmas decorations being up, so that would have been Christmas
time two thousand and two. Butnow listening to you guys, I'm like,
that seems pretty aggressive. For um, I'll pretend you said eighteen video

(21:45):
getting a tape out by by theend of the year from when was that
July? Yeah, So I'm like, that sounds pretty aggressive. So maybe
maybe he didn't, maybe it maybeit wasn't that show, But like I
said, it was literally me writingreviews about probably terrible reviewsers are like,
really awful. I hadn't no ideawhat was I mean? Not that I
have any bet more of an ideanow, but at least I can string

(22:07):
best sentences together now. But yeah, I'm sure they were awful. But
yeah, just I was just like, and yes, I got a few
Ravana tapes and then sort of oneenough from there, And like I said,
the match that I always vividly rememberpulling me into Rangevana was that that
I'm a match just to that articlethat that image of sweat drenched, bald

(22:30):
headed probably probably wasted away because ofhow much you know, fluid he'd lost
in that hour like low Ki.And then the first time you see that
match, it's I mean, it'sone of my favorite matches to this day.
It's a beautiful match. It's it'samazing. And the concept of I

(22:51):
think the way you describe the matchis being beautiful would be the very first
word that I would also use todescribe that match. I mean, it
was unlike anything I'd ever seen before. And then this is going back to
your point about it, Like Isaid, it doesn't wrestling doesn't need to
be like perfect and look look sterileand look all the same way, like

(23:14):
nothing about the Murphy rex and Ilook pretty on you know, I'm from
the U. I was like ateenager in the UK. I'm It's not
like if I'm going to watch wrestling, what I want is like one hundred
and fifty people in a sports allwith some but like that match is just
so authentically full of effort and passionfor um, the performance, you know,

(23:37):
like there's not there's there's no sortof there's no bells and whistles to
it, but it's just four peoplewho just really care And how can you
not relate to that? It's sotrue And I don't know if that was
the first match that was like whereyou just went, Oh my god,
that level of effort is untouched,because I think a lot of stuff before

(24:00):
that. I'm sure it was Ryanand Key It round Robin. The arav
Honor begins through way Eddie is supercrazy. Do you remember the first time
you saw low Key and Red dothat? Because they did it in other
promotions, all that low Key andRed minute the first time I remember vibe
Like any of my friends any so, when I went to university, like

(24:21):
any of my friends that I evermet who was sort of interest ar wrestling,
I know what's ringing on? Likethe easiest thing to show them was
that first minute of low Key.Yeah. Like, um so I would
have seen that for the first time, probably right when the tape was released,
because I remember getting arav Honor Beginsright as it was released. So

(24:48):
maybe like, uh, have youworry, Like maybe April two thousand and
two a bit generous to pretend youto that eighteen video now bring into you

(25:11):
know, not quite summer yet twothousand and two, so it could have
been at some point in the monthof April, uh, and like getting
to just see it and just yousee the the dirty, grimy building and
the guardrails looking with that weird likemural on the back wall. Yeah,

(25:32):
and like you know, I hadseen indie wrestling like Jersey All Pro ccw
UM Yeah, and same the samewith these By this point, I've been
to f w FW Right, it'sgood f W A show. It's like
it's not like the setting was unfamiliar, but the product was different. Even
from a very early point, therewas something that made Ring of Honor just

(25:56):
a step ahead from CGW in JerseyAll Pro. And I I think that's
been the mission statement of this showfrom the very beginning, you know,
two hundred and eight shows in tofigure out why it was a step above

(26:18):
every other established independent and I don'tknow if we'll ever solve that mystery because
everybody has a different answer. Yeah. And I think you've got such a
like perfect combination of different like someof some of those other promotions managed got
some of the same elements, butI just think like you, so you've
got the products, You've got apologiesin a balance. I've come off like

(26:44):
a bit of a Gabe worship throughthis, So I love Gabe. So
you've got here. Yeah, I'mgonna say, you've got you've got,
Gabe, You've got and then ata certain point, you've got Carrier comes
in it and then appreciates the Itbrings some of that appreciation for a rock
concert and and some of the someof the more gritty presentational elements that then
become staples of the ring of wandof products. So you're talking music,

(27:06):
you talk I mean, not notlike high end lights, but the appreciation
of how music is going to linkinto your entrance to connect to your fans,
which from there you get used toit sort of spills out into things
like toilet paper for Jimmy Rave andbanging the guardrails, and all of a
sudden you've got not only a productthat is different, you've got a culture
amongst fans that's different because there's differentthings that they see in the show that

(27:27):
they relate to you just I mean, I'm sure there are other promotions doing
some of the things, but muchfor me, you didn't see a lot
of companies doing that at that point. And that one and really sort of
steering into not fan lead culture,but steering into trying to build cultivate that
relationship with fans and allow fans toreally influence the show. And I think

(27:47):
even to this day said that thereare certain wresting companies that are a little
bit uneasy about letting fans influence theirproducts and sort of lead the journey.
But ultimately fans are the ones thatpaying for it, you know, life.
And I think from an elity point, um Ring of One was very
good at um listening to its foundbase and base service the fans, and

(28:11):
I think they're you know, whenyou when you look at wrestling in general,
like WWE, Vince was the finalsay in everything for ever and ever,
all of a sudden, Vince isout, Triple H is in.
Now, Triple H is the endall be all, allegedly accordedly, I

(28:33):
don't see their style of television andproduct changing or reinventing like wrestling is.
And I've said there's a million timesit's a quack and bush thing. Wrestling
is infinite. There is no uhfinale, uh you know for wrestling,

(28:55):
it will continue to change and moveforward and progress and things will be invented
and old things will be brought back. It's just the way it is.
It's unlike anything else in w WEI think they know what they are,
they know what they present and theyknow how to present it better than anybody

(29:17):
else. And their fans are theirfans. Whether that's a growing number or
not is subject to debate amongst youknow, the Internet community and wrestling fans
in general. AW, I thinkis something where there is going to be
more adaptation to the presentation. Thereis a feeling of authenticity that I don't

(29:47):
know about you, but I sawthat segment with The Fiend over the weekend
and I just went, this shitain't for me. I'm out. And
I think AW is an interesting onein that I don't know if and when
the bubble will pop on. Obviously, it's been sort of on an infinite

(30:07):
upward curve thus fast since it's sinceaw's inception, and I don't know how
long or that roller coaster can beridden without there being something of a downward
turns off. But I do thinkthe success of AW to an extent should
inspire people to at least listen moreto your fine like everything not saying everything

(30:29):
about a WS fan there, butthere's so much about the presentation and the
product and who you see and whois promoting who that points disappears onto dark
and an elevation versus who is onTV every because fans fans want to see
him, and so I think thething is WWE. There is a definite

(30:52):
separation of church and state with apretty good way and the fens aw it's
a little closer to being you know, there's still is that separation, but
then there's also that interaction. Iagain, as I said, I'm not
I'm by no means a real hardcorem aw family before we came on out.

(31:17):
Like like I said with with Ra, why there's some of it's not
for you, some of some ofaw products not for me. But there's
more and more of a relationship inmy opinion. But between church and state,
I like that. I like thatFRA there's to me, there's more
of a relationship, which I thinkis rewarded. That's where a ring of
honor comes in. Where it feltlike the fans were as equally invested as

(31:41):
the company and the wrestlers themselves.Yeah, and I say that I said
it was for better or worse attimes I would agree with that, like,
um, yeah, I'm going tosay there were probably points where if
anything, Um, I don't knowif we could turn the we terming church
or state as there there's the wrestlingorganization. But they possibly could have done
with downscaling a fan influence a littlebit of points. But yeah, no,

(32:04):
I agree it was. It wasa brilliant time to be a wrestling
fan and to feel like you hada real stake in this product that you
loved. And I know you spokenabout on on your podcast as well,
how rewarding it was to feel likeby traveling toward these shows and by building
relationships with these people, you feltlike you were directly a part. You

(32:25):
weren't just watching this this success.You were a part of it. This
was mine. It was mine AndI don't I'm not a possessive person,
uh but I you're right. Ifelt like it was my wrestling company,
just even though I wasn't funding it, I wasn't carry I wasn't you know,

(32:46):
Sinclair or anybody else's time. Andyou were putting your hand in your
pocket to you know, more sothan men, and to this, you
know I was. I was sittingthere buying endless a outs of duties.
I probably couldn't afford it. Ithink the analogy that I sort of compared
it to when I talked to peopleis and we talked about before we went
on. I was obviously you're abig sports fan. I'm a big sports

(33:07):
fan. You say, it wassort of like Ring of Points again for
better and worse Ring of On andwas like our team, we were the
ones that you know, and likeI said, that then leads to rivalries
with TNA impact fans, but likeit, this was this was your team.
This is who you were going tosupport. And the benefit the Ring
of Honors are in that is thatas and when people leave, so you

(33:29):
know, talent churns through. Actually, the fans for the most part weren't
sad that CM Punk was leaving becausethe next we were excited see what happened
next, you know, like therewere there was always something else coming in
and we were going to We're goingto be shit. We were supporting our
team. It didn't matter who theplayers were. For the most part,
it was that you want, youknow, you wanted to your team succeed.

(33:51):
Well, it's fascinating too, becauseyou know, my view on that
has changed a lot over the years. I know I was when Punk left
in August of O five, Iwas nineteen years old, and I was
a college kid, and I didn'tknow about paying bills or having you know,

(34:12):
saving money, or having kids orhaving responsibilities. Like I was just
I'll go to class today, I'llshow up to work this week. I
wish I could tell you I wasany different in two thousand and five US.
But yet, But like I didn'twant Punk to leave. I didn't
want him to go to Dave.They'd ruin him, they did. Like,

(34:34):
but he now has enough money thathe can live comfortably and not have
to worry about living paycheck to anyonewant to. That's changed my perspective in
okay, like Pump doesn't have toworry about that kind of thing. So
I was now for one of theresponds, who's sitting And that's not to

(34:57):
criticize who you are in two thousandand five, by the way, but
I so we can get onto that. But no, but no, I
was never one of those people thatsort of meant like, oh, like
and remember like you would get probing, you get you sold out chance,
It's like like, come on,I was my head. I was always
adult enough to sort of look itand literally as you said, they're like,

(35:20):
I mean, you don't need tobe. You don't need to be
a mathematician or a genius to lookat Ring of Honor two, three,
four, or five hundred people dudescovered in blood, flying off cages,
ladders, beating themselves up in justlike the second match on the show,
to know that this is a humanbody, Like they're not earning this much
money from that. Yeah. SoI was never really one of these people

(35:45):
that was like, like it wassad when certain people what certain people were
going, And there were points whenpeople would going before you were really sort
of ready to not let them go, but ready to sort of you felt
like they've done what they needed todo. So Punk's a good example of
where probably actually he probably hadn't hiteverything you wanted him to do as a
Ring of Honor fan, and actuallythe summer of Punk ending probably whilst it

(36:08):
was a great bullet point on theend of his career, actually if you
look at where he was, let'ssay, the Jimmy Ray feud before that,
it sort of felt like there wereso many things, in my opinion,
so many things he could do.Coming out of the Jimmy Ray feud,
he sort of found this Niche isthis guy who could elevate all these
talents. You know, remember we'ddone the Jimmy rayfeud. He had a
couple of matches to Roddy. Itsort of felt like there were so many

(36:30):
ways you could go with him fromthere. You could. He was so
good and all these different like feudscenarios. He could tell such a brilliant
story, so you could make hima champion. You could not make him
a champion, like, yeah,I remember Punk being one that I was
like, I felt like there wasmore story to tell, even though the
Summer of Punk story that ended itwas so good. The conversation that I
had and I'm trying to figure whatyear this was might have been like it

(36:52):
was after Punk had left where Gabehad said that he viewed Punk is Tommy
Dreamer. And if you think aboutit, Tommy's Dreamer never got stale in
ECW, but he always had something. There was the Raven thing, and
then Raven leaves, and then Tommy'sgot Sandman and Sad Lou and he's you

(37:15):
know, just invitable buying an entrancethemes, and then and then you know,
Raven comes back and he's like hetremendous. I'm an ecle and they
become tag team champions on the firstECW on TNN show by beating the Dudley
Boys who were going off to thewf UM where anything can happen, which

(37:39):
that's an inside joke for Jonathan tykemanUm there was always something for Tommy to
invest in his character with Punk.For me, he was the guy.
With Joe, he was the guy. I think I had a bigger issue
with guys leaving Ring of Honor forTNA than I did the WWE. It

(38:05):
was always more disappointing when they wentto TNA, wasn't it. I mean,
I probably didn't feel it to quitethe depths of your soul that you
did when Joe started rocking up inthe TNA. But no, yeah,
you are right. But then onthe flip side of that, and I
say, with a little bit ofthe benefit of hindsight, when they turned
up in TNA, although ultimately theyprobably didn't end up any more any further

(38:30):
for than they would have done,they were earning more money. They're bear
explos and actually in the short termgenerally they were more presented in a more
interesting way as a casual viewer ofTNA than people turning up in WW.
I mean, unless you really wentout of your way to seek out like
Punk's ow run Punk, Like afterhe leaves Ring of Honor, you're not

(38:51):
really enjoying seeing Punk as a wrestleragain for a good few years, you
know, like it's a good fewyears where you get to see him really
hit his straps and Morey's capable of, Whereas when Joe leaves a TNA instantly
he's having good matches. Even whenNigel leaves, you know, obviously circumstances
sort of I would take Nigel,but he goes to TNA, becomes Desman
morph and has some good matches.You know, like, at least was

(39:15):
it as did it feel the sameas when they're in yone? And probably
not, but at least you canstill watch them do what it closer to
what they do best. And thisI guess that that was the sort of
the kicker. I felt like,like you said, when they went to
TNA, you sort of felt likeyou were in this rivalry and you were
watching them do what they do bestfor the other team, whereas if they

(39:35):
went to WW, you sort ofsit there and it can abstractly appreciate that
this talent that ultimately you care aboutand you're really grateful for the entertainment they've
given you, is now going tohave the opportunity to make more money.
But then like a punks and usingpunking example, again, you don't see
Punk the wrestler really get really hitwhat he is capable of. Again,
I have anything other than the occasionalmatch for years after he leaves WWE in

(40:00):
all honest day, like when whenPunk left and he did this, um
this dark match on I think itwas prior to Sunday Night Heat or whatever
it was. It was a rawtaping in Cleveland, Uh, and it's
him and Mickey James against or himwith Mickey James against. I can't remember

(40:25):
the guy's name if I saw it, you know, it's a familiar dark
match vocal guy, and I thinkhe was in developmental at the time,
and I remember just being like,oh man, this is awesome. Like
he's got the same gear and he'ssee him Punk and they're not changing his

(40:45):
name and he has this match andthe match just from the point he was
like basically so much bigger than heremember right away have been probably September October
of o five. Um, hehe when he went to OVW and he

(41:10):
got humongous and was still having thesegreat matches of all Bright and John.
Yeah that I I mean, I'magain talking tape trading and you everyone had
that that like sort of three fourmonths Hayman IVW period. And yeah,
I'm gonna say that, like Isaid, that sort of period. He

(41:30):
was a lot of fun and butyou got to see him closer I guess,
closer to having ring Upon esque matches. But and and he he got
to talk and present himself as himself, Like I think Punk's probably the biggest
exception to the rule in that hedidn't really have to change a whole lot,

(41:52):
and he stayed his authentic self.But then you look at, like,
I don't know, some more Joewhen he went from roh TNA and
Teenage back to Roage for you know, sixty eight shows whatever it was,
and then he went to n XTand it just didn't feel right off.

(42:20):
Although I think the years were probablya little bit kinder to Punk than they
were to Joe and very much.Although to be fair, I guess to
make your point a little bit thatif you drop the same Punk primary from
I don't know, let's say twothousand and four or five. Now,
maybe his delivery is a bit morepolished, maybe like, but actually the

(42:40):
tone of what he says and theway he delivers things and the aggression with
which he attacks, like these specificpoints, it's always been there. It's
to say, it's like you said, it is the same character or the
same delivery, but it likes it. It's more polished now, I'm sure,
and it's probably it's always been authentic. And I think that's why his

(43:04):
role in ro Oh always appealed tome. Joe again was just a natural
connection Brian. Same thing, youknow. And Brian like when they made
him the Champion of Earth or theClimate Champion or whatever, um and he
had but would belt um. Igot it. But I was like,

(43:28):
Okay, this is really hokey.Brian's making it work. I yeah,
I mean, I'll tell you whyI like that. And and I guess
do you remember that there was Ican't remember what PWG show was for the
life of me. Do you rememberthat it was? Brian gave this promo
where he's visibly like about to passhimself, laughing the whole way through,
like his run him and Paul Londondoing the hybrid Dolphins. Yeah, and

(43:53):
all of that run to me feltlike Brian, not quite because you know,
it's a professional on television, butsort of out like Brian, like
a mainstream TV version that you couldtell it something that he was like,
well, you know this, I'mpassionate about this, I can do this.
I know this, but I knowI can have fun with it.
And it sort of felt there werepoints where he's visibly, in my opinion,
saying things that is going to entertainhim. And if you've got enough

(44:15):
of a history of watching him asa performer, you can see the literally
which is going back to that randompromo and a corridor talking about absolutely lunatic
stuff and that's what I Yeah,so I've got time for that run like
it was. It was Yeah,probably again probably not peaked Daniel Brian Daniels,
but I did. I enjoyed.I enjoyed that for Yeah, I

(44:36):
felt that comedy that Brian bough intoit was again you and I have talked
so much on the year about Brianjust being in a constant state of almost
ready to burst in the laughter,don't matter what he's doing. And actually
I think his career has been infinitelybetter since he's embraced that. So if
you look at the earlier Ring ofHones stuff, it's not like he's an

(44:58):
amazing wrestler. He's always been antable wrestler. But actually when he starts
showing a bit more of that personality, that's when he really starts to take
off in Ring of Honor, andthen similarly in ww once he once he
is allowed to show a bit morepersonality, takes off again. Because you
know, he's a likable guy.He's not like a you know, like
even yeah, and that people relateto that, you know, like I'm

(45:22):
sure you guys have had more personalinteractions with him than I have, but
like, you know, I've watchedhim for twenty years. He's a likable
guy. You don't watch someone likethat and don't like him. And all
you got to do is find theright vessel to present that. And and
I don't see how people don't relateto us here the wrestle man you play,

(45:44):
I was never in like it never. It never surprised me that the
properly he got to that level ofpopularity, just the yes thing was the
vessel through which more people got morepeople got it and it still exists,
you know, oh for sure alot ten years what are they end WrestleMania
forty now? Yeah and yeah Iwas. I mean again talking about soccer

(46:07):
football, you know, I supporta League One team. I've been the
like games, like there's like threethousand people that no one guys, but
how many those are going to bewrestling flans? But you still see hundreds
people doing like yes, yes,yes, like it like it's it's it
in portrayed every um corner of likesporting culture. So like I said,
like that that the yes thing waswhat made people look at Brian Danielson.
But it's not the in my opinion, it's not the reason that um Brian

(46:30):
achieved the amount of success they didand continues to. He's the hardest working
in ring performer I've ever seen.And to me, I don't make specific
statements like this very often, butI do consider Brian to be the greatest
professional wrestler of all time. Youwould you could make a convincing case for

(46:53):
it. Yeah, yeah, Imean if we take away the money dry
and just strictly look at it froman in ring and cromwell and character standpoint
inside of a television the greatest,the greatest of all time, and it

(47:13):
gets to this day he's still theone guy who has the ability to make
me. I was not the oneguy that's something, but he's a guy
who has the ability to make melike. Like, as I said,
I'm not every every week watch ofAW by any point, but if Brian
Daniel something is doing something that Iwant to see, I'll be watching it,
like without failing. He's He's aguy that that I will always if

(47:37):
it's a match I want to seeBrian's in it, I'll be watching like
this. I'm not saying, youknow the points now when you know he's
um history with injuries that he's alwaysat this point he's the most comfortable of
wrestlers to watch UM. And thereare points, I mean, I'm sure
you feels are there are points whereyou sort of almost regret wanting to see

(47:59):
that Brian diningson as much as youdo. But yeah, the fact that
he's been as good as he isfor as long as he has and continues
to be that good when he's gotno you know, I'm in at that.
I'm sure it's you know, financiallysay it doesn't need to do that.
So again talking about bringing it backto two thousand and two Ring of
One or it's passion, you know, like and it's it's a sort of

(48:22):
care and the um hair and levelof detail puts into his craft is um
speaks. That speaks to me.So so we kind of go to from
two thousand and two to like Iwould say two three in the first part
of two thousand and four um leadinginto At Our Best. I kind of

(48:46):
look at that as one chapter.And I remember gave had his chapters,
you know that he would put onthe message board and such, but like
the post at Our Best chapter deinningwith the re Born weekend in Chicago and
Minneapolis side, But do you rememberon the message board after the Reborn shows.

(49:07):
And this is what Gabe I thinkwas really good at and why I
enjoyed the message board culture to anextent. Gabe came on the message board
after those Reborn shows and just gavethe most like in depth like sales pitch
for why these shows you had tobuy them? Both they like go together
there and and I vividly remember andlike if you're looking about now, like
Reborn Stage one is a decent show, it is a good show, like

(49:29):
the but I just like get likethat is why I why I liked Gabe
and why I like that he hadthis ability to sell and make it if
you cared about the product here,the ability to sell it to you in
such a like way that spoke toyou like and like I said, I
remember I so vividly remember after thoseReborn shows him sort of coming on and
talking about what I'm talking about AmericanDragon. What a privilege it was that

(49:52):
that we get to see Brian Danielsonand these shows need to be watched together,
and like that, like that errorof Ring of Honor, going from
yeah, I guess like you saidthat to that next chapter where it is
where it really starts to take off. I think Gabe's ability to not only
tell stories but also when he's gotfans draw their attention to him, this

(50:12):
is important. You need to seethis. This is why this matters.
That to me was one of thebiggest things that was missed post Gabe in
that it took a while to sortof Gabe was so good at telling you
not when he was on commentary didit very bluntly and not particularly well.
But post Gabe, one commentary.He would he would say he was so

(50:35):
erudite in selling his products and tellingyou what you what was important and making
you believe it and then you asa FAMI guy and tell other people.
But oh man, you need togo and watch like Rebond stage one,
like like, yes, a perfectlyfine show. It's not like, oh
man, you know if you putpart Rewe stage two one, you don't
need to see Reward Stage one thatmuch. Gabe made you believe it.
Yeah, it's it's a great selfpitch, you know. I think the

(51:00):
message board was such a great vehiclefor somebody like Gabe to engage with fans
just enough to make sure that theystuck around. And he still does it
to this day. He's still likethe way he uses social media to this
day, like he's still like it'slike again, the medium's different, but

(51:20):
he still does it to this daylike it. And well, sometimes there's
things that come to my dms fromhim, not so much recently, but
uh, you know, things thatare said on the podcast and he's not
thrown out, but okay, he'llget nothing but positive feedback from me.
So I love Gabe and I havesuch an appreciation for him. And and

(51:44):
the way that he made you feelas a fan that he was booking for
you individually. Um, I thoughthis there were certain things I didn't like,
but then there were also things whereI was like, oh my god,
this is exactly how I would doit. And I think he's spoken
as well. How much is true, I guess, but I think he's

(52:06):
spoken like a lot of the timeshe was just bucking stuff that he wanted
to see. And but it's thatalignment between like creative vision and fan base.
Like like, like I said,it felt like it was booking for
you because he was because you wantedto do the same things that he did,
and he was just like, yeah, right, let's do that.
Um uh. And yeah, asI said, I've I'm very conscious of

(52:29):
just yeah coming off like, um, I only like you. I love
I love post gay Ring of Honoras well. But yeah, Gabe Sapolsky
Prime Ring of Honor is just it'sit's um, it's a real it was
a special time that they're looking backnow, you probably didn't appreciate how specially
it was. Yeah, And that'sthe hardest part of like knowing where I

(52:51):
was personally and how I treated peopleyou know, on on the message board
like a young how I would doit now with interacting with people, and
I mean, if we go backto the message board, you you and
I both look at it very similarly. I would say, where there's your

(53:15):
mix of good stuff and good discussionand thorough deep discussion where you learn things.
And then there was the silly ship. I just I mean, I
mean, but that's true of anywalk of life now, you know like
that that's no difference now, Ijust it was a It was a place
where if you had that, ifyou had a real passion for it,

(53:35):
like I mean, there was youknow, like people doing like pickens and
and and and posting reviews and Ithink I think you guys have referenced before
like wrestlers very obviously being part ofit for better or work their parents.
Yeah. Um, it was acommunity that as I like, in all
honesty, I'm not going to soundas a massive participant. And I sort

(53:59):
of took what I needed out ofit, which in the UK was often
results, which is often as someonethat even then wrote reviews, was it
was sort of bouncing ideas of otherpeople. And we can talk about some
idea that I ended up bouncing offyou indirectly, and you were not happy.
Um, but yeah, there's noway you'll remember it, but ye're

(54:20):
gonna say I visited again. Itwas just like when we think when we
were talking about and arranging this,it was like the first thing that it
was like the only real like jsWO like interaction I can remember with you
anyway, like but yeah, pupercurious, Well I will go into so
do you remember Generation Next the finishto Samoa Joe homicide, like it was

(54:42):
it's, um, it's evacuated.Yeah, evacuated, gonna say, and
you're gonna says, it's an awesomematch for that, and and I think
I think the finish is like abrainbuster. And I remember like i'd watched
it, and I was pretty positiveabout the match, and I joyed about
I was just sort of like whatI sort of felt like A didn't like
the brain rustles would be finished,not that it's not a brilliant and you

(55:05):
you know now in hindsight now likelisten, like full fledged, I loved
some job like you went in sohard at me. You were like,
no, he was doing this.The net was this homicide. And I
just remember like Okay, I'll justgo back in my box now and never.
I guess this sounds like a thingthat I would have been like,

(55:27):
it's so taple. I just rememberyou going in so hard, like and
I was just like oh but prettymuch all I was like, well,
I mean, like my preference wouldhave been like sumit. I just felt
in the context of the match andin a feud where like some dudes from
fire and another guy's face, wherewrestling was even by two thousand and four,
not that it didn't make sense,not it was good, but yeah,
you were all in and like,no, Joe is a killer,

(55:50):
I mean, and I do thinkthat's very true of the idea of like,
okay, now you go back andrewatch one of those matches and maybe
they're finished and appealed to me theway it did. Then. There there's
a lot of things that Shane andI have gone back and watch where I'm
like, oh, yeah, man, I'm really excited to watch this shows
so great and then you watch it, you m and that was the show.

(56:16):
There's so many examples where it's theother words your man hatt and mayhemry
like I love that, Like thetag title match on my show like it's
a really good match. But Iremember, like you guys, and you
like this is the best undercard,like this is the best ring of on
the tote, And I'm like,was it that good? And I watched
it and like, well, maybeI didn't like it as much as you

(56:37):
did, but like I was like, this is amazing. Like it's just
like and you think about what whenit was, like, well, were
like two thousand and five by thatpoint, Like it's just like this is
like so cutting edge and so likefor like a bunch of guys just like
chuck together, like yeah, likeso, yeah, you're right. Sometimes
you go back and watch stuff andit doesn't hold up, But sometimes you
go back and watch stuff and it'sso much better now with the benefit of

(57:00):
hindsight than than it was at thetime when it was just another match because
we were sorry to spoiled we were, and I think too, when you
have a gluttony of something, nomatter what it is, like for me
present day, like, um myreally close friends they work in a shoe
store. I'm a huge sneakerhead.I can go in there and talk to

(57:23):
them about sneakers. I can tryon stuff that's not out even though you've
only got one foot, one workingfoot in the mind, and I've got
ten more days of freedom of tavingthis before I will be a one footed
man, uh, temporarily a onefooted man. I'm gonna have my scooter
so I'll be able to scoot around, and I'll have crutches for in the

(57:45):
household. Em all, you're justscooting around, you know, a young
man anymore? Deaf? Listen,I'm gonna go have my surgery. Presently,
it is estimated it will be aneleven thirty am surgery. I will
be out of surgery by two pmthem and I will go home. I
will sleep off the nerve block thatthey're putting into my leg. They're not

(58:07):
putting me asleep for this thing,which I think is interesting. So technically,
if I can bend a certain way, I'll be able to watch the
surgery itself. And I want togo to the gym the day of my
surgery, just to prove a point, because they told me I shouldn't.

(58:27):
Yeah, I couldn't. But whenwhen we go back and like the gluttony
of the great matches and great shows, and they're all they're they're coming fast
and furious, it's like, allright, here's a show. We two
shows this weekend, bangers. Twoweeks later, two more shows bangers.
And I think, with having accessto something so often and having that hall

(58:53):
pass, yes you have to payfor it. I can't take the shoes
in the shoe store home unless theypay for them. I can't take the
wrestling home unless I pay for him, or I illegally bootleg on the internet.
Regardless, I getting all of theseover and over and over again.
Think about May of two thousand andfive, for example, into June,

(59:16):
and then into the summer of twothousand and five into what plays out in
the fall of two thousands. Solet's start with Manhattan Mayhem Aries and Shelley
Briscos versus Roddy and Jack Evans.We've got Punk and Jimmy Rave and their
story. Then we go in andwe have the Cage match Weekend, where

(59:38):
we've got you know, Punk andRave in the cage in Chicago, Homicide
and Brian into Cage and Dayton.Then we go into June and oh,
by the way, we're gonna havea sixty minute our Wage World Title iron
Man or you know, sixty minutedraw Joe and Punk in Dayton with the
medieval title being presented afterwards. That'sonly just that was too coz not too

(01:00:01):
quick Junior five that was there wasye, there was a sixteen in the
l punked up Punk Daniel, Soyou know what you're like, yes,
and maybe that's what I was thinking. So then you get the Summer of
Punk and that's being played out.Uh. You you send Punk out on

(01:00:22):
a strong note in Chicago, Uh, you know, in the two out
of three with Cabana. Then yougo and Brian's back, like Brian then
comes back and bam, like you'vegot Brian Gibson and and then Gibson leaves
and everybody sad, but he leaveson the high note with wrestling Gibson,
Eric Gibson and Roddy in a littleYou've got a little Yeah. Finally there's

(01:00:46):
this guy Kent Tocobashi, maybe thegreatest entring wrestler of all time. Uh.
He's gonna come in and wrestle twomatches for you. Uh. And
then you start, you know thisthis end of year Brian and Push and
he's going to wrestle Aries again anda j and that Brian Roddy trilogy which

(01:01:06):
you know this means more's a supercarof honor. Yeah, I love I
love those matches. Yeah, wewere so spoiled, and it's almost at
the point, I mean, sorry, can you one? I would say,
like that's that being spoiled that leadsto an arrogance and a constant defending

(01:01:30):
of this. This and this weregreat, you know, like we were
it just we were so used tohaving great stuff. Why would something not
be? And two? So yeah, two thousand and five. If you
if I'm being held down to picka favorite ring, one of your two
thousand and five is probably mine.But just I mean if you look at

(01:01:51):
that upward trajectory from two thousand andfour and the Joe punk stuff, and
and then you go into and generationnext was a four as well, wasn't
it? And then you go intofive? Amitally it's got it? And
then but then you know, youkeep going to two thousand and six to
Cage of Death like that that periodand even after that. I'm not the

(01:02:12):
biggest fan of the homicide run tothe Well. I would was it called
like the road of homicide? Likethat's not if I'm you're gonna say I
enjoyed it, like it's not likeit was. But to me, people
sort of talk about two thousand andsix speaking with homicide being Brian at final
bout, that was incredible to Butit's not that it was bad, But
to me, it's sort of theplateau that you start seeing in two thousand

(01:02:37):
and two thousand and eight. Therewere signs of it even then in two
thousands, the tail end of twothousand and six in my opinion, but
like, I still love two thousandand six as well. It's just this,
Yeah, you're right, there's there'ssuch a gluttony of incredible stuff.
So yeah, I see the thingabout Homicide's journey that I love the most,
and I am huge proponent of thatstory, was it was so different

(01:03:00):
from anything else we had seen atthat point. It was I love,
Yeah, I love the story.It was yeah, I just I sort
of felt, again, this iseveryone's perhaps and perfect. I didn't feel
like it was executed as well asI'd wanted, And some of that was
actually on Brian's and obviously Brian's dealingwith injury injury at that point. But

(01:03:22):
yeah, so I the end momentHomicide, when the time was again talking
one hundred thousands, of miles away. As a DVD viewer, you felt
that emotion. You absolutely felt everybit of it. So when we covered
Final Battle of six, i mentionedit. But my favorite part of that

(01:03:42):
match is not the finish, andit's not the celebration. It's the false
finish with Haggard, Orn and Piercehitting the ring and Todd Sinclair refusing to
call for a d Q because itwould have been a cop out. But
the heat did that caused it wassomething that Gabe didn't necessarily do very often

(01:04:02):
where he would have interference or somesort of you know, fuck finish,
especially on a final Battle, toeven tempt the crowd, and then the
crowd bought it, and then Toddcomes back, does the baby faced referee
deal and they restart the match.Like you talk about getting a feeling and

(01:04:26):
energy that you can't replicate. Theanger and vitriochical Pearson Haggedorn had when they
interfered it was. It was palpablein that building and the fact that that
can translate to DVD and that tenor you know, sixteen, seventeen years
later or whatever it is. Aswe talked about before our math, not

(01:04:49):
my strong suit. However, manyyears later we did that show to rewatch
that match and to see Pearson Hagedorncome out and to get staff in the
moment that they're interfering even though youknow what this is. It's it's so
cool that this stuff ages well withus, it travels with that. To

(01:05:13):
me, it's a really bittersweet thingthough, because if so you people are
watching of one and now they don'tget the whole experience, simply because there's
never going to be a time again, in my opinion, or less,
unless Tony Kahn's got infinite pools ofmoney where it's going to you know,
pony up the money for every singletheme everything, Like you're never going to
be able to see those shows asthey were in like the questionably legal releases

(01:05:36):
that you and I have got someon our shelves, Like you're never going
to see those versions with the music, You're never gonna like like I mean,
you did your musical episode, butlike the connection that people had to
that that homicide theme, like everythingabout homicide entrance that you can never present
that again, like in the wayit was without you know, dropping a
ton of money into it, andyou said, like you say it now
with Brian come and everyone talking aboutone in the final countdown and like even

(01:06:00):
a Tony Karnes level of funds isjust like, well, I mean that's
not worth the money, you know, Like I mean that that for a
band to have one hit and notone it everywhere for the rest of it,
you know, eternity is silly tome. But well but yeah,
it's just it's so it's a bittersweet thing to me that that I'm really

(01:06:21):
great man. I'm sure you areas I'm really grateful and privileged that even
as as a distant DVD person fanthat was part of like my wrestling fandom,
and I'm always consous. I'm actuallyI'm in a relative minority that you
know, we've we got to seeall these people before they were massive,
whilst they were becoming massive, andothers on the way back down, like

(01:06:43):
even now, like when you whenI watch Homicide, you know that like
the running had towards the tail endof Ring of Bonnah when you see him,
and it never feels less special tome a getting to watch Homicide,
like never like is he the samewrestler as he was in two thousand and
three when he was beating the shitout of himself like for everything everybody watched
two thousand and three homicide kills himselflike every week. It is brutal to

(01:07:08):
watch now with like an adult,but like it's like I said, that
is he that Russa l No.But it never doesn't feel special. And
part of the reason doesn't feel special, it's because of the connection that you
built to him years ago, andthe entrance and the aura and Julius smokes
and everything about like his present andyou can't retrospectively build that connection with it

(01:07:29):
with a performer or with a witha productor so actually, if you know,
was it carry that said to you? Like you guys are like historians,
and you do what you can tolike preserve like which is which is
admirable. It's a really good thing. But there's only so much you can
do to sort of talk about thereal, like emotive side of that era

(01:07:50):
of ring of honor. And it'sreally hard to explain now to a disconnected
with such a disconnect why it orwhy it why it matted so much,
but why it meant so much likeand why it made you feel certain things.
That was the nicest thing anybody's eversaid about me, And it really

(01:08:11):
like it brought me to tears whenI was listening to Carrying Me In on
the Last Stop Penn Station podcast aboutme being a Ring of Honor historian.
It even just kind of repeating thatit's it was never something I intended,

(01:08:33):
but I fell in love with thisstyle of wrestling, the Ring of Honor
style, as as Hagger and I'vetried to figure out what exactly that is,
which I mean, really it's justthrow everything into a pile and see
what you pull out of it.A Ring of Honor style for a few
false finishes as well. Yeah,yeah, maybe six or seven. And

(01:08:57):
it's like, I love this it'stime frame, and I love this period
in my you know, wrestling fandomto where it's not it's not just period
in your wrestling fandom, it sinceperiod in your life. Like I'm I'm
guessing you're the same as me,Like you can remember so vividly different things
you were doing in your life nothingto do with wrestling, but you link
it to things that happen with theRing of honorsh I mean, it's slightly

(01:09:21):
a perverse example, but so Ivividly I remember I think we discussed by
this on DM. So my umfather passed away in at the start of
two thousand and six, and Iso vividly remember reviewing UM I'm pretty sure
as being showdown in Motown the ChrisSabin and Brian Daniel said no no pants

(01:09:44):
match. Yeah, because and thething is like, why on earth,
like would I remember such a liketraumatic time remember life? But no,
I remember that, you know.I mean it's still down there on myself
there like a vividly yeah, likethe no pants cover the match, Like
is it the Great Shore ever?Probably not, but like like like these
little moments in my life linked toI was watching that show then oh well
that was about the time that cameout, Like I'm sure you're the same,

(01:10:06):
Like it's it's yes, you're restingby them. Then you it linked
into your life and your identity,And that's a that's a really powerful mechanism,
you know, like there are certainmoments in your life for you,
or certain things that happened in ourlives that you know exactly where you were.

(01:10:27):
I know where I was on nineto eleven. I know where I
was when the insurrection happened. UMA much far less serious situation. UM
the Cleveland Caves made a trade forsuperstar Donovan Mitchell. Um. I know
exactly where I was in Target whenthat happened, Like, I know the

(01:10:49):
aisle that I was in, andevery time I walked past that aisle,
Um, it's where the sports stuffis. The kat tape and the home
workout equipment was literally right at theedge of that aisle. Uh. It
makes me smile to think about that. And there I wasn't necessarily like in

(01:11:10):
the best mental position, dealing witha lot of my own personal demons during
a lot of this glory or period, but Ring of Honor kind of was
the the place where I felt safe. I felt like I could be myself.
And there were people that would sayto me, like, you are
not the person that you are onthe internet when you're in person. And

(01:11:35):
I always thought that was interesting becausethe message board, I always thought it
was me just pushing my passion andspeaking on how how genuinely I love the
rowag and everything about it. Butit came off is being a prick.
Oh, I think this is myown opinion. The message will when you

(01:12:00):
made it, like like as Isaid, for me, like there were
certain things I wanted it for.I was never like the most I wasn't
as much of a lurker as Iwas, I guess a relatively selfish consumer
of it. And as I said, I enjoyed having a direct sort of
tap into Gabe's thoughts and what Gabethought was important, and it was interesting
to bounce ideas off different people.But you say it was like you said,

(01:12:21):
like it was you pushing your passionfor me, I never really needed
to. I never really needed notto push my passion but to debate.
Like to me, it was justa group of people who cared for better
or worse about this, this sharedthe shared product that they all love.

(01:12:42):
Um. So yeah, I wanted. I wanted everyone to love it as
much as I did, and certainlywanted to love Samoa Jail as much as
you did, as I record,Yeah, so, I mean, who
doesn't love Samoa Joel Well, fairscholar and a gentleman, even if he
has a very very, very verybad haircut. Right now, I love

(01:13:04):
the haircut. I need. Ineed the mohawk back. I'll tell you
what I need. I need thelike kind of like fought top frosted tips.
Oh, the frosted tips would becool. Yeah, with the with
the with the brown Millennium Danger torshirt. That's the Joe we need back

(01:13:24):
the Millennium. You've got the hookup, make it happen. So like
that shirt. I have my original. It's got holes in it. It's
probably falling apart. It's in abox in my garage with a bunch of
other Row eight shirts. Um.In fact, they just sent Prince Nanna

(01:13:47):
a text with a picture of theoriginal Embassy shirt and a little diamond emoji
say which one was. It wasthe one that looked like a bottle of
Crown Royal and it just said theEmbassy on the front, and then I
think it's a greetings from Ghana onthe back, possibly something like that.

(01:14:08):
And that the fact that those twoguys are under contract aw right now and
Pro Wrestling Tease has not rebooted allthe old school Embassy merch or the Samoa
Joel Millennium Danger Tour shirt or licensedthe as Hagenon calls it, the anal

(01:14:30):
bead metal necklace. Oh God,from the pack son that Chris Hero and
I and Samoa Joe and I thinkJimmy Rave War One, Trent Acid had
one, like a million of ushad them, like we all bought them
a Pacific sunwear and totally unrelated eventsand um like they should be selling those,

(01:14:55):
Like there's a million revenue streams here, but the Millennium Danger Tour shirt
that needs refurbished and brought back likemine, like you as, I imagine
thing very much a pool. It'stable if we're being completely honest, it's
got holes where dope. So atthis point, like Joe, and we're

(01:15:19):
in the oh five oh six ohseven kind of time frame, uh,
you know the timeline and we dofade in two thousand and eight and faction
warfare is kind of the thing,and um as as we yeah, and

(01:15:40):
that trio's tournament was a very ununfortunate day that turned into unscripted three.
But um, I'm gonna throw toa commercial, and when we come back,
we're going to talk about two thousandand eight, two thousand and nine,
and then I want to get intokind of twenty ten Sinclair, your

(01:16:00):
reviews and some other things. ButI'm gonna throw to a Patreon commercial here,
and Zach Johnson do your magic.Want to hear the ad free version
of this show and get it early, become a patron today at Pagreon dot
com slash an hororable pod. Ifyou become a patron, you'll get early
and add free access to the showwith several tiers to choose from that started

(01:16:24):
just a few bucks a month,and each tier comes with more bonus perks
like bonus content, merch and somuch more. Support the show at patreon
dot com slash an horble pod andget early, add free access, and
be worthy of an honorable mention.So we mentioned before we went to commercial
there that like two thousand and eightwas kind of this transition period into faction

(01:16:47):
warfare. And one of the thingsthat kind of change was also the fact
that Ring of Honor was now onpay per viewed through Defunk Sports and enter
Pament, and there was a periodwhere things were like airing out of order
that they were taped, and Ithink that kind of factored into the some

(01:17:12):
people checking out or kind of distancingthemselves. But also music changes were a
big thing in this timeframe, amongstother things, roster changes, the edition
of new people. You know,we we were talking before we just started
recording again that the Spanky song isone of the all time classics. Electric

(01:17:38):
six Panic at the Disco even thoughyou as you said, it was if
you look at the actual period thatwas you such a short period of time,
But it just want in a ringof out of contexts like it's instantly
or you can picture you picture theDon's picture everything, like so clearly you
like you've not timeed enough in yourchat. You call Oh yeah, spam

(01:18:01):
call. Must be politics season herein State of Ohio. Patrick's Sakes wants
some royalties. I think, yeah, yeah, maybe they do. But
you know, like two thousand andeight was interesting too because you had faction
warfare kind of coming out of theTrio's tournament and the end of two thousand
and seven it never was and ifyou look at that two thousand and eight

(01:18:25):
period, you're going into the endof game. Yeah. I think he's
been pretty vocal. I think he'sbeen pretty vocal about some of the I
guess not burnout, but some ofthe issues here. And you did an
episode on the Book of Secrets andactually it's a shame of secrets. Yeah,

(01:18:46):
you're going to say some of thestuff that he had envisioned he didn't
get actualized because a lot of thechanges that as fans it fellow, we
wanted to see at the time,we're kind of it was kind of again
the way Gabe was going on.I think the pay per view timelines an
interesting one. I don't necessarily thinkit drove fans away in itself, because

(01:19:09):
the payer views themselves, for themost part, were really good, Like
it's not shows. I think itasked a bit more of you as a
fan to follow a product out oforder, and in my opinion, it
asked probably a bit too much ofGabe as a booker to be to do
all the things he was doing,and then having to book shows in such

(01:19:30):
a way where you had a liveaudience who could follow stuff, you'd have
a pay per view audience that couldfollow stuff. And that trend continues when
you get into um yeah, twothousand and nine hd Net. You start
having a TV audience, a payper view timeline, a live show timeline,
like the starts asking more and moreof you as a fan to follow

(01:19:53):
along with those things. So Idon't think anything individually drives it away.
But yes, those m the littletouches that in two thousand and seven,
two thousand and six, you're like, there's this weekend of shows come waited,
this weekend of shows and then youwait for the DVD and you see
them and you talk abound on themessage board. It starts like splinter and
factor off the community into different subbits of I've not seen that paper yet,

(01:20:15):
Well I love as a UK fan. We didn't get the paper,
we didn't get the pay per views. It's like, well, I'm not
going to see I wasn't driven toNigel, Brian was was driven two thousand
and seven. Right, it takesto like domination. Yeah, I'm going
to say, like I vividly remember, like it's like people loving that match
and it being so long until wegot to see it. Um, there's

(01:20:40):
a UK DVD by Pans and I'msure I could have gone out of my
way to find potentially questionable means ofdoing so, but I did not do
that. And as I said,as a I can only speak from it
as like a slightly distant UK DVDBrian fan. It puts you out of
sync with the community that we've spokenabout before. So in that period though,

(01:21:01):
you also got to see the riseof kind of a new crop a
is guys went to TNA, theywent to WWE that you know they're leaving
the nest and now you've got moreof a focus on Age of the Fall.
Jimmy Jacobs, Tyler Black, necroButcher, Kevin steinl Generico, Bryan
and Nigel are still here. TheBriscoe's still there, but there is some

(01:21:25):
new names that are coming in duringthat time frame. Kings of Wrestling are
on the rise. You know thatthat two thousand and nine reformation into twenty
and ten into twenty eleven, whereyou know they would it makes you talk.
You're talking about music, the King'sof Wrestling theme and iconic caring upon
a thing post getting rid of Musicsite. Yeah, that was one of

(01:21:46):
the good ones. But that wasa real artist putting effort into a unique
theme for the group for the Youknow, there's references to Sarah, there's
references to hag it Or, andthere's ferences the Christ and Claudio in the
song. Um. I think KidRussell is somebody that never is going to

(01:22:09):
get the credit he deserves. Buthe did the hd NET theme, the
Adrenaline Rush theme, he did Cabana'stheme. He did a rhet tightest theme.
Um, and I'm sure I'm missingwas that the tighest theme that replaced
the awesome like rhet singing addicted toloved ones. I did really enjoy that.

(01:22:34):
Yeah, it's the retz He's gonnaride his jet ski that one um
and like those were good songs becausethey applied to the performer. It was
the generic like here's rock track numbersix RB no ren albright that sucked,

(01:22:59):
like it took away like the Osbornesong, never going to stop, and
then he just went to like exactlyhow it went. Oh no, I
mean it was just generic noise thatyour your your rendition is how I remember
it too. Don't worry it soundslike a dentist drip um two thousand,

(01:23:27):
The two thousand and nine eight nineperiod isn't I would say vintage Ring of
Honor, But you are right.It does sort of bring together a new
crop of people and one of themand I'll go to back place. I
said, I'm a gay disciple loving, but I'll go to back all day.
That twenty ten is one of thebest years in Ring of One history.
But like I say, oh,there's obviously lots going on behind the

(01:23:49):
scenes. Were Madam Peace and JimCornett always, but on screen it's twenty
ten is a phenomenal year. You'vegot Davey and ty kelling it. You've
got Eddie doing amazing things as wellat different points, you know them of
the Baby Eddie TV title match,I'm sure that was from twenty ten.
You've got the Briscos and the Kingsand all of that held together, whether

(01:24:15):
obviously very We've got different perspectives onwhether it was supposed to be as prominent
as it should be. All thatyear knitted together by that, in my
opinion, the best Raby won afew to ever the Steam Generico Cabana Carino,
stuff like that. That feud holdstogether that entire year. There's other
things that happened, but twenty tenis, like I said, I'll go

(01:24:36):
to back for Aldo, one ofthe best and probably the most underrated year
in the Ring of honest because itdoesn't happen under game, it doesn't happen.
In two thousand and five six itstarted to it started to come into
that period where you've got the sortof the core original group of like hardcore
fans drifting away, but they've notquite found the I guess the Sinclair Kniche

(01:24:57):
if you want to put it thatway, because I refuse to believe they
hate net TV create any kind ofniche, but it's sort of no.
Well, I mean I love thatlove of the biggest fan of ht net
is Grizzly. I mean, I'mnot going to say I'm an arrival,
and but I love the presentation onthe HD Net. I so much prefer

(01:25:19):
to anything Sinclair in And some ofthat's just the logistics of having less commercials,
being able to present matches in aslightly longer form, just that the
realities of what presenting a wrestling showon hd net versus um said the Sinclair
station mechanism. But yeah, likeI said twenty ten, for building on

(01:25:43):
the work that's done in two thousandand eight post Gabe, that some of
the stuff that gave wanting to dobut never got a chance to do,
building on not pulling the trigger onTyler when they should have. Um,
you've got a lot of stuff goingon in two thousand and eight and nine
which doesn't work, potentially pushes peopleaway, But you're gonna say the benefit
of it, in my opinion,you've seen in twenty ten, which is,

(01:26:04):
like I said, in my opinion, one of the best years a
ring of one I had and thatfinal battle Steam Generico Um that fight without
On is a tongue of beautiful ina different way. It's an absolutely beautiful
piece of storytelling. It's incredible,Like everything about that feud is incredible,

(01:26:25):
Like it's so every detail is sobrilliantly done. You spoke about before the
chair, like little details that youlike, you don't need, like no
one, no one's going to noticeif they don't pull the chair out,
but hag it on bringing, youknow, Like it turns out he's got
the chair, and he's also likelittle touches. Yeah, the way like
the last match references the final battlebefore with Steam standing over Generico Final about

(01:26:48):
two ers, and I just there'sso many pieces and elements in that.
And and we're talking about the differenttimelines for Ring of One, like it
goes into the hasty net timeline relativelyseamlessly, it goes the way they weave
all of that together. And Idon't and I don't know how much is

(01:27:10):
down as a fan. I don'tknow how much it's down to the performers.
I don't know how much it wasdown to Adam Piss points of land
and going with it. I don'tknow how much corner at different points to
I to reign it. But obviously, like as a fan, you can
read plenty of different selacious internet gossipabout it. But as I said,
as a fan, what you seeon screen on DVD at the end is

(01:27:31):
you're going to say, I absolutelyadore a that few would be twenty ten
in general is yeah, for me, one of it's one of the best
years, and really one of wouldbe one of the most underrated. Yes,
people just don't talk about it,but the same reverence they do sort
of Golden Gaybears, Golden Year,Golden period Gay years, and they should

(01:27:53):
do. I think it goes tothe old trope of when you have somebody
that had the kind of the cartblanche that the gabehead to just do whatever
and then people were gonna like it. You don't want to be the guy
that replaces that person going to bethe guy that replaces the guy who replaced

(01:28:15):
Adam place had a rough had arough deal, And I think I think
he I think I said, I'msure as our video did a piece with
putting Gabe and Adam together, andI think he was pretty I'm sure at
the time he was pretty voke aboutthe chat. He like literally, like
you said, he was the guythat had to replace the guy that everyone
I'm not saying everyone loved Gabe,but he was the guy that had was

(01:28:39):
in was sort of the hatchet guyfor ring Upon or his changing Carry rightly
or wrongly wants to do things differentlyby Gabe, Adam, you're the guy
I'm going to make do this.And so he's sort of there wielding Carry's
gun and like taking parts of thisthing that we love behind the bike Chad
and shooting it and like, yeah, we're gonna have the squad of cacations.

(01:29:00):
Now, I'm gonna have countouts andthose matches that you really like going
twenty five days for him minutes,they're probably going to be about twelve now.
And remember how you really like matchnumber two going like twenty minutes and
having nineteen four finishes And that's nothappening anymore, guys. Sorry, Like
now, this it made me veryhappy because I didn't go home completely exhausted

(01:29:23):
anymore. And that and that's agreat part. And there's a lot as
a person the ghost Loose, you'rea massively important part of the show.
But then there's a DVD watching fanwho like I'm not part of the show,
and just like I missed big chunksof what and to this day the
way that get and he does itlike I mean, obviously he's not booked,
evolved whatever for long time, buthe has to this day. Gabe

(01:29:45):
has a method of booking shows whichI think is different to other people,
and he's it's it's not even thathe's got a bit set formalist that he's
willing to play with a show formulaand actually aw two as credit does that
a little bit as well. ButI have a big problem with shows becoming
formulaic, and I write about alot of my reviews and as you know,

(01:30:08):
particularly as I've focused on late arealater a bring of honor so much
when shows become formula formulaic in theirstructure, you start to disconnect from character
because if you know something's only goingto go like seven minutes, and you
like some people like talking about theeffort that you see in like two thousand

(01:30:28):
and two, three are a ringof on it. When you know that
certain people are going to be givenseven minutes, they're not going to have
that kind of freedom to go anddo whatever they want. There's merits to
that but the downside is you don'tnecessarily have the same platform to connect with
them. You can, U.You can look at those the two rors,
you know, the game and thenright into Adams era and I think

(01:30:49):
Adam was actually building into something reallyreally fun and then boom, that's quite
short. He's gone and delirious iswell, yeah, and a lot of
the stuff that happens in twenty ten, like you know, like that he's
not there to see the end ofit. But that's the groundwork that Adam
pierces later. Because I'm I'm notas big as fan as far as a

(01:31:12):
bit of you know, book orcreates a person guys. But yeah,
you know so I'm not for onceI can particularly critical of him. I
can see that one of the bettercrack position it would put in. I
was somebody the grew up on WCWin the early nineties and obviously you know

(01:31:34):
I was watching, but I didn'tcare for Hogan and where you're in that
kind of thing. I was moreflair sting Brian Pillman very window. It's
a big blind spot in my wrestlingfan of like I've seen lots of you
know, like Flaire like said,Flairings but actually like sitting down and watching

(01:31:55):
like elongated stretches of shows and thingsrather than individual matches or individual like compilation
of some people like you know,I mean everyone. If I have a
half time in my life, thatis some of the literon Arrest, I
want to sit back and go andwatch a lot more. If I'm on
Expect and you do a lot topromote shot, I will recommend a way

(01:32:16):
of doing that and not taking yourentire life away. Go back and start
with Clash of Champions one, andthen just watch them in sequential order,
because you're getting the best. You'regetting an hour and a half ish of
shows, and you're getting good matches, but you're also getting a taste of

(01:32:39):
what WCW was like in the endway as well. But for me,
Pierce's style of booking and his philosophyon shows was a lot closer to what
I preferred. Now, did Ifawn over what Gabe was throwing at me,
like every match could be five stars? Yeah, because it was new

(01:33:04):
and it was the shiny, youknow, shiny new toy, and but
eventually it's not sustainable, and Piercetakes over. Pierce starts building and creating
these you know, building blocks andnew characters are getting shoved up the card,
and you know, then Delirious comesin and kind of mixes a little

(01:33:25):
bit of Adam and Game and fora while there I was like, all
right, now we're trending, We'regoing in the right direction. This is
this is good. You know.The question I always have about the sort
of the transition to and again it'scoming from it as from a fan set
of the transition to Adam to thento Delirious, there's always Jim Cornett like

(01:33:48):
in the background, you know,like until Jim Cornett's departure, a lot
of Delirious is anyway the sort ofJim Cornett. The thing I've always asked
myself as a fan is how muchis Delirious being able to push his creative
vision versus how much is Jim Cornettraining him? And or how much is

(01:34:09):
it ad vice versaor Delirious almost becomesa m a vehicle for delivering Jim Cornett's
view that I'm going to say there'sdifferent a tennis record, sure, but
yeah, I think I said Ijust I think that's probably I guess a
problem that early early years Delirious hasit sort of there's points where it sort

(01:34:30):
of feels like you're going more towardsmaybe not a convention or anyone of delirious
of you. And then there's pointswhere you feel like Jim Cornett's bringing it
back again. This is I speakas a as a distant fan. It's
sort of like those two sort ofideologies never found a comfortable way of meshing,
even though they sit they clearly seemto want to work together and work

(01:34:53):
well. To you said, Ithink, I just think there's various points
where um, particularly at that era, there's it feels is a bit more
of an inconsistent product. And it'sinteresting because I really don't know where where
one meets the other in that processbecause I have obviously I don't particularly need

(01:35:14):
anything to do with Hunter uh andand with Cornett. I mean what reason
I mean you mean Jame's not comingon your show anytime I'm saying that i'm
i'm mention is not worthy of anhonorable mention. And he is banned from
this show. Well, he's coolerthan the other side of No. No,

(01:35:36):
he's he's been he has been banned, he has been sent off to
the Portland Territory where there's no footageof any of his contributions. Point now,
if if Dennis Condry or Stan Laneor God Arrest the Soul Bobby Eaton

(01:35:57):
wanted to come on the show,they have an open invitation. But if
they want to bring if they wantto bring him Cornette, No, no
guests, that's funny. Initially thatwas the philosophy of the show was no
guests and we're just gonna do theshow. Ruined Shane hag it On speaking
for five hours at a time abouthow much but like yeah, yes,

(01:36:19):
and and arguing about what match wasbetter Joe versus Gobashi or Brian versus Kente.
That's that was going to be thepodcast. Um, and then we
weren't going to do anything from afterhag it On got fired. I'm so
happy you have because I feel likethat's part of the reason I'm on here,

(01:36:39):
because I feel like my my reviewsbecome more relevant to you guys when
you've not seen the shots. Yeah. Well, and and that's so that's
a great point because a lot ofthe gab era, the Adam era,
and then early Delirious, um nothing. I didn't want to miss anything,
and then all of a sudden.It was like, uh, I'll watch

(01:37:00):
that down. It's someone that didn'tmiss anything. Yeah, you there were
points where you weren't missing anything.I mean there there's we were going to
cover Survival withit is twenty eighteen onthe pod. Uh it's and we're gonna
do it at some point when Hagarhamcomes back from baby duty and touring and

(01:37:21):
writing Code of Honor available at abookstore near you at some point in your
future. Um, but we're gonnareview that. Twenty and eighteen Survival of
the Fittest Where was like the weirdestshow was like Luca Saurus is on this
show. PJ Black, Uh someRando, Luca Door. All the matches

(01:37:43):
were three ways. It was veryjust it was such a bad show.
And that's a really good gression andoh because it Tracy, Tracy Williams is
a really good gression hot source matchon them that's got a lot of time
for and that brought Tracy Williams.And I absolutely love Tracy Williams. I

(01:38:04):
mean, I couldn't tell you athing about it. I don't know.
I was there and that I neverlike watched it back, but I was
there, and I just remember sittinghere with my buddy's ste and just going.
It was in that venue you reallydone as well? Yeah, And

(01:38:24):
we were standing and I just remembergoing like Brett is on the stage in
the tiniest pair of underwear for noreason the whole show. Yeah, because
he's doing the he's the fittest survivor. Yeah. Not if I'm honest that,
I'm like, what the is thisleading to? I remember I asked

(01:38:45):
him that night, so where's thisgoing? I never ask anybody where things
are going, where stories are going, because I don't want to know.
I want to be internet. I'mthe exact same. Like when we've been
talking off about buff I'm trying toknow. I think I said to you,
don't pull the cut back for me, like I don't want to know
your certain things, Like I'm sorrysuch an advocate of being a fan,

(01:39:06):
like I love it. Yeah,I don't like. I just I don't
want to, Like I don't knowa number one where things are going.
I have guesses and stuff, butlike a lot of it's me projecting ideas
that I think of, Oh,things are going to go here, I
don't and what I do know staysbetween me and the person that tells me

(01:39:28):
always, so unlike some people thatthink I leak things to the internet,
Uh, they would be wrong.So did you leave that there was there
was minimal payoff to the rat wearingtiny pants story. Yeah, spoiler alert.
I had no idea where that wasgoing, and I was super confused
as to where it could possibly go. So I asked him and he goes,

(01:39:53):
I got no idea. Was it? He got himself in ridiculous shape
and someone noticed and was like,well, I mean we need you on
TV looking like that. But he'snot always been in ridiculous shape. Yeah,
he's always been in ridiculous shape.But then there's like like shape pret
ti us to what he is now, which is like Jesus Man like,

(01:40:14):
as as having been in the gymwith him multiple times, he'll kill you
like he I mean, you know, out training him on one leg.
It's disappointing him. So when heand Eli stayed with me over the summer,
we went to the gym and Icould hang with Rhet for a little

(01:40:35):
bit and then I had to justdial it back. And I don't think
I I don't think I knew myfoot injury was as bad as it was,
and for those that don't actually havea specific diagnosis. M I pulverized
the austrigonum bone, so I didn'ttotally shatter it um. I just kind

(01:40:56):
of broke it in half and piecesof it are floating around. And if
it wasn't for that, he wouldhave killed Red Tires in the gym.
That would be time little pants.I'm talking to me and ian Rick Obarni,
and I'd be standing there in tinyunderwear for no reason. That's the
dream. Sorry, rat, Butlike long, long story short, like

(01:41:21):
I didn't know what the fun wasgoing on, and I said, and
Rhett is not going to raise anargument, say like, hey, do
something the frust the frustrating thing Iguess for not to make this a ret
tire centric podcast. But actually,if you look at obviously when he joins
the Foundation and some of the stuffhe did during the pandemic era when there

(01:41:43):
was no one, that's like someof the stuff, like there were some
really good like rhet tires matches,with all due respect, no one was
watching like like I mean that inthe sense that there's no one in the
building, and so if people arewatching the product at that point, but
there's a Rhet and Tracy against IGKmatch and I know you know some people
about Matt Tavan's biggest fan, butnope. Yeah, but it's like out

(01:42:04):
of nowhere and like random Sinclair episodenumber eight billion, I feel like I
reviewed, like every so often youjust get these little matches, but you
just aren't expecting anything from they.Just like I said, I vividly remember
like Pandemic era, the red MikeBennett twenty minute draw, I think is
yes, it's a great yeah.And that's the thing, like the Pandemic

(01:42:29):
era of Ring of Honor, becausethey had no fans for pretty much every
show aside from the ones they didit the the like big time shows of
paper blows or whatever in the worldand that's in the world the words Honor
and the Final Battle or whatever.Like I look at that and I go,

(01:42:54):
this is good. I'd like tosee in from him an audience.
And then I talked I've talked aboutit in obviously would jump around timeline a
bit. But of all the companies, Ring of Honors like Empty Arena,
Pandemic stuff, in my in myopinion, it is one of, if
not the best. They absolutely nailedthe fact that where without fans. It's

(01:43:17):
a totally different, completely different performancemechanism, So something like the pure tournament
and then some of the things thatdid after that. I didn't love,
things like Fight on the Farm,but like like some of the like the
fact that they really loves Folcus onWrestling and Ring one has always been pretty
decent that that they in all honesty, like the product before it wasn't like

(01:43:39):
it wasn't like he was swimming infans anyway. So um yeah, I
said some of the stuff and yeahthat Tracy and right against again like it,
Um yeah, I of the Sinclairera of a very long period.
Some of the my like fondest memoriesof that TV show. Know, I've

(01:44:01):
reviewed every single one of them.A lot of them are a slog to
get through. They all blur togetherand they're all just a mess of like
ridiculous adverts for random companies that inthe UK have never heard of and sound
like they don't they aren't they aren'treal things, and like knee braces every
seven seconds. But yeah, myfrantly, oh my god, like with

(01:44:23):
like but yeah, like the pandemichere stuff is someone like my favorite memories
of that TV show and rat isthe beneficiary of that. I don't want
to be disrespectful to rat, butI'm not sure how many people pre covid
were desperate to see twenty minute Ratagainst my Bennett matches. Obviously you'd have

(01:44:44):
loved it, you know, yourcrew would have been all over that.
I love my I love my Benetttoo. But yeah, I think that
that the platform that the pandemic forfor obviously horrible reasons, gave Ring of
Honor to reset, and obviously RingOne had his own issues and needed to
reset from coming out of twenty nineteenand who they gave big contracts to to

(01:45:08):
book and then not. But yeah, I've got I mean that led to
Marty's departure. I was, Iwas, Yeah, I was trying not
to name him, but yeah,exactly that. Yeah, and if you
look at here, here's a thingthat exists. He did win that survival
of the fit is that we referenceda few minutes, and he should have

(01:45:29):
won the world titles as well.Like, there's no doubt in my mind
that that should have been the result. It's and I think it bro He
was easy to say in hindsight,with the speaking out stuff, why shouldn't
and I can. Obviously it's anuncomfortable conversation to have now, but there
is no to me, there isno reason I will ever read that.

(01:45:51):
Even if I get, the logicwill make it make me feel like it
was the right decision to make MattTaven world champion at Madison Square Garden,
even though I'm actually far from thebiggest attraction Matt Taylor's type, and I
think it's very good. So beforebefore we get to the car, we're
jumping all around timeline. I wantto I do want to specifically talk about

(01:46:12):
the Bullet Club era in our age, and I think very much that period
of time brought me back from youknow, having interest to having a lot
of interest. When Cody came in, I'm all eyes for me went on
to the roag product again. Andit's really interesting that you say that,

(01:46:35):
because it's not that I didn't likethat period, like I absolutely did.
But to me, that period thereis sort of when the real malaise and
the real laziness in ring of honestof approach to its fans and its product
really sets in. Like if youlook at the I call it like corporate,

(01:46:58):
like relentless, like corporate of it. But if you look at sort
of it's sort of that period wherethey get they get the Young Bucks under
contract, and like I said,then they get Cody in and the New
Japan relationship from twenty fourteen really startsto flourish. It becomes easier. Like
I don't want to say it's agrave each to make excuses for it.

(01:47:20):
Yeah, and it feels like there'sthere's there's Creatively, there's so little happening
because you've got the Young Bucks,because you've got the Bullet Club. It
like nothing happens at points, andit's like you've just got the like you've
got this incredible match with these incredibleperformers, and at points you've got people
like jay Lee Thor or Adam Cole. Do you having these incredible matches?

(01:47:42):
But there's other than But then there'sother points where you've got someone like Mark
Briscoe just sort of like bouncing arounddoing the same redneck Kung Foo skits over
and over again, Like again,like you're saying it's Mark Bruscoe, Like
it's I'm sure, I'm sure youknow his body was very grateful that he
spent a period of time just doinglike eight minute kung fu skits and then

(01:48:04):
that was it. Ver since havingto jump off ladders in front of half
full Toronto building at Summer Supercard orwhatever it was because oh yeah, they
wrestled the Tamat. Yeah you're gonnasay, I am yeah, Like I'm
not saying that, But it's justthat beneath the surface of what was an
incredibly successful period, and it buildsand it builds, and they certainly,

(01:48:28):
you know, you've got the Hardiesand the Bucks and Cody and Kenny.
My opinion is whilst like you said, it brings fans, it brings fans,
like you said, it brings anyone, but they had so much of
a platform that they could have reallykick started another real golden era of Ring
of Honor, and so much ofwhat you see in all elite wrestling now
could have been what Ring of Honordid out of that period, in my

(01:48:49):
opinion, and they didn't because theywere happy to coast on while we're drawing
three thousand people for us on anyway, you know, and we've never done
like four of our this is incredible. Oh well, New Japan's come in
for the next two shows. Weprobably don't need to book that much,
we'll sell some tickets because Tanahashi's goingto wrestle someone. And like, it's
not that it's bad, you know, there's lots of loads of really good

(01:49:10):
shows at that point, but it'salso this period of real stagnation and a
real lack of ambition in what wasactually happening with the product. And sorry,
I've taken every show to rant abit, but this is, like
I said, in my opinion,that's someone that sat and watched it.
It felt like there was so littlehappening week to week and show to show
because while people are watching, ohit doesn't matter, but the young Bucks

(01:49:32):
are going to be in a sixman tag in the main event with you
know, and actually towards the end, it almost got to the point where
all of the the like storyline progressionis what the young Bucks bother to put
on being the elite or like whatrather than what's on Ring of on a
TV. And yeah, they hadthis real platform that all those people brought

(01:49:57):
to the audience and brought all theeyes, but they brought to the product
to that point that they could havebecome what aw is and they didn't because
again, in my opinion, thatthere was a bit of a lack of
ambition and a bit of a comfortlevel that built up because they were they
were so much bigger than they wereand they broken out of the twenty thirteen
twenty fourteen Sinclair or whether they weren'tquite sure what the product was and the

(01:50:23):
products they all looked a bit dated, and I think I think Shane Hagginalls
talks about some of the stuff thatsome of the issues like the early period
team had. They got through thatand all of a sudden they've got all
these fans and it's great, Butyeah, it didn't. They never kicked
on from that in the way theyshould. And it was a lot of
just surface wrestling, like Okay,here's really good wrestling, but Ring of

(01:50:45):
Honor in PWG, PWG and Ringof arnor know that kind of like we're
just gonna have these great matches butno substance with the stake. Yeah.
I also can tell you from myown personal experience going to some shows in
that period and talking to people andfans and wrestlers alike, saying, our

(01:51:10):
booker is out of ideas, he'sgot nothing left. He is coasting on
the Bullet Club brand that he hadnothing to do with creating and we need
to blood and we need new andthen that was when like Daniels and b
J. Whitmer got a little bitmore involved and there was a significant push

(01:51:34):
to have Cody become the booker fora while. And then obviously we know
how that went. And I thinkI think there was a very divided group
of Ring of Honor should be thisversus Ring of Honor should be this,

(01:51:57):
and that hurt. And again theperception that I had was that you so
there was the eyes taking it backto like when we were talking about in
two thousand and five, thousand andsix, you cared about the brand,
and you know, obviously you'd besad if if Wrestling X left, but
you still watch Ring Wall and asas proved to be the case, people

(01:52:17):
weren't watching Ring of Wer because theywanted to watch Ring of One. That
like, you didn't look out aring side again on a DVD. I
didn't look around the crowd and seeloads of like Ringing Wanna shows or a
few You saw Bullet Club shirts everywhere. You saw like the Elite shirts,
You saw all the merch, thePROMP Pro Wrestling tease that the young bucks
are chilling outside of their Ring ofHonor stuff like it's not it was never

(01:52:39):
there was a shift in terms ofit, to my mind, the sort
of the Golden era Ring of Honoryou watch because you wanted to watch Ring
Wanner, the Bullet Club era,and the Elite era you were watching because
you wanted to watch those guys.And that's a shame in a way because
there are people like Jay Lethal whowere doing incredible work who probably didn't.

(01:52:59):
Yeah strong, I mean you godown. I'll throw a niche one at
you as well, just because hegets he's a bit of he gets a
bit of about Leo Rush's run inRing of Honor. It's only a year,
it's it's it's phenomenal, like it'sso underrated, Like it's incredible,
like his match with Jay Lee forIt's Supercardo Tendas. Yeah, it's a

(01:53:23):
phenomenal match. It's like, I'mit's an incredible match, and you think,
you look how inexperienced comparatively Leo Rushwas. Then he had no right
to but and obviously, but likeI said, there's there's there's piece there's
guys like that who would come inand do this incredible work and just go
nowhere. I think you spoke onAh basically spent four years just having random

(01:53:44):
matches that are all brilliant, andthen the some of his parts is in
the exact same place, Cedric Alexanderthe same, Like it sort of felt
like Roddy had gone through the glassceiling years before, and then Sinclair gradually
just sort of brought him back tothis, like, well, you can
have amazing matches every week, butyou're not really going anywhere, Like there
were so many guys beneath that sortof top tier who were just hanging out

(01:54:08):
amazing matches. There's a fascinating thoroughline to you mentioning the Leo rus J
lethal match in Dallas. So theyhave the match, people wins, He's
a champ. Still, Cabanner comesback. They start building Cabana and Lethal,
Cabanon Lethal too. Do you rememberthe hype for Global Wars. Do

(01:54:29):
you remember the hype that people hadfor that Cabana lethal match, To the
point the hype was so big thatI said the Stu, my buddy Stue,
who lives about an hour north ofmain Cleveland, I said, we
gotta go see this Cabanner's winning thewar People wanted to see that match.
People didn't obviously people people didn't needto see what happened with Like people wanted

(01:54:53):
the match, they didn't need.This is how important that match was to
me. The Calves are in theNBA Eastern Conference Finals. They are preparing
to sweep the Atlanta Hawks with abroom out to the point where I was
like, yeah, we'll beat theHawks. No, big Gill, go

(01:55:14):
back to the finals, go toplay the Warriors. They beat the Hawks
so badly in that series. Isaid to Stu, yeah, if we
miss Game four, we'll live togo to that show. And we did.
We did. We skipped Game fouradvancing to the NBA Finals in a

(01:55:36):
year that the Cavs would win achampionship thanks to Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love
and the Lebron guy. And weskipped the game four to go to see
Cabano win the world title because wewanted to see Cabano win the world title.
I just they fucked us. Yeah, and they guys, Guys what

(01:55:58):
I was saying about a lack ofambition, like I'm in all honesty and
this is being transport I didn't needto see Cold Cabana win the world title
in the same way. But I, well, I needed from that match
was an old fashioned ring of one, a match I needed to believe col
Cabana could win the world title.What I didn't need was was it like
fifteen minutes and then bullet clubs Likeit was just like it felt so unambitious.

(01:56:19):
It was just like, well,bullet club is what people want to
see. Was not put them inthe main event. We've got these two
like this, this is We've gotthis old fashioned ring of one the main
event, don't They didn't seem wasany confidence that that will sell, that
will do, and it just pulledit and just went all in on more
bullet clubs. Here's the thing aboutthat. I wouldn't have minded them club

(01:56:42):
shenanigans afterwards because after the match levelof ridiculous. If you change the title
and it becomes Cabana's belt, Cabanais now a baby face going against the
bullock the base of our owage versusbullet Club. You have now taken bullet

(01:57:05):
Club from being part of oro owageriking havoc. Now you have a clear
cut baby face going against the heel. I just yeah, I'm gonna say,
I just I don't think that therewas ever enough ambition in it.
And I'm I'm cognizant of the factthat Colt Cabana, I'm guessing Cold Cabana

(01:57:25):
wasn't technically fully signed up to Sinclair'scontracts of Total Doom, so I'm guessing,
but I don't know. But thepoint being that, like, I
don't think that Delirious Joek of whomeverhad enough confidence that they could book the
product in such a way where ColtCabana would be cheered over Bullet Club like

(01:57:48):
you. I Like, I'm notsaying that that's that the scenario post I
would necessarily the one I'd have done, but it sort of shows you the
possibilities that they could have had ratherthan just the fun finish that they went
with for the of more bullet clubstuff. Um and it's yeah, I
took one. And by the bythe time they did a proper to my

(01:58:09):
mind, a proper Jay Lethal ColdCabana match, it was at like it
was it was in like it wassomething like Atlanta show, like way later
in the year was it Atlanta,So I can't rememberize it was like it
was the Room Masters challenged it,and it was a long ass match and
it was for me and my typeof wrestling. I loved it, and
nobody saw it. Nobody like It'snot like anyone watched it. But it

(01:58:31):
was really good and it was theexact the point I'm making is it because
Bullet Club weren't in it, andwe're talking, what are we twenty and
sixteen by that point? Because BulletClub went in it and it was a
forty five minute jay Lee thal Cock, nobody cared, and I don't.
I don't mean that to be derogatoryto Jay Lethal and Cold Cabana because I
love both of them and I lovethat match. But I mean, I

(01:58:55):
mean, have you seen it likeI have? And you feel like you
do you feel when you talk aboutlike a lot of people have seen it,
because I don't. I don't feellike many people have seen it.
I feel like I think from abouttwenty fifteen onward to the end, I
think less people saw a Ring ofHonor than it felt like we're seeing Ring
of Honor. I think I neverfelt like because I know, I mean,

(01:59:18):
I'm sure you're you're very switched onwith your metrics and your engagement as
well. But yeah, I said, going back to the historian stuff,
like, I'm not saying I'm anywhere. You're on the same level as you
guys. Oh yeah, more peoplewere going, but I don't think more
people were actually watching, you know. I remember an interview with Joe Cough

(01:59:40):
before the sale to Tony Kahn wherehe was like, oh, yeah,
we got about a million. Wegot as many viewers as they do a
week. And I was like,Okay, let's think about this. If
we're talking, we're gonna say we'retalking what twenty twenty one? Like no,
Like, I'm sure it's not equivalent, is metric? Yeah that's not

(02:00:03):
People can watch it, Yeah,but that's predicated on the baseball game ending
early, the basketball game on theregional sports network ending ending on time.
That's predicated on Uh, there's nocollege football local special show that typically most

(02:00:24):
regional sports networks have. Well,to take it a step further, it's
it's the people that are gonna putsome money into your product and buy a
ticket or in old school, buya DVD, buy a like, buy
on a club subscription. I'm I'mI mean, I'm not who am I
to debate the great and wise jokeoff. But I'm telling you, if
you look at look at those lookat again. You know. I went

(02:00:46):
to the last Spring of one.A show I went to live was the
twenty nineteen UK shows, and everythingabout it was so sad and tone death,
Like the tickets were more expensive thanRev Pro run the same building,
the York call, Like the cardwasn't great, Like there was like there
like eight million pounds meet an individual, like meeting greets where you just got

(02:01:10):
you basically got rush and PCO sataround by themselves, people looking at them
because it's just like, well,no one's going to pay like sixty quid
to meet you guys, like I'msure you're wonderful people, So you just
got these poor rest Quebecer Pierre thirtyfive years ago when he was you know,
and it's just like a half emptybuilding with like this card which was
just you knew how long each matchis going to go and what was going

(02:01:31):
to happen, and outside of likeColt Cabana like goofing around with people before
the show, like it just everythingabout it felt stared. Like I'm like
I said, I'm not on todebate joke off but if that's how many
people were watching the show, brilliant, but they are not. That's not
the amount of people that were puttingmoney into his product at that point.
And I firmly believe that it wasa statement that he said to entice the

(02:01:56):
seller um to entice a buyer.I would be astonished if Tiny Cohn or
whomever was naive enough to believe thatand be like, well, now I'll
pull the trigger like God's joke.Yeah, he just he. I always
felt like anytime I would talk tohim, it would be that I was

(02:02:18):
being sold at used car and that'syou know, I come from the family
of people in the car industry andI'm working sales. I get it,
like, yeah, I'm sorry,but I don't. I don't believe a
word that comes out of your mouth. And you know, the Bullet Club
era can't. The elite era comesto an end, aw starts and now

(02:02:44):
we're really like dire straits for ourage. It's the Matt Tavn era.
Madison Square Garden. Madison's Garden's anotherexample of the son the complete indifference to
what I th or the complete lackof interesting I think the direction of travel
of where wrestling fans will go inversus where in my opinion, Sinclair and

(02:03:09):
Ring of One as headspace was inthat everything about that MSGU show felt so
poorly charged, like there's just likeeverything and like, I mean you were
their live, Like I can't imaginethere's an old school Ring of One of
I don't like we say old schoolfan like it's a bad one. Like
if it doesn't matter if you're anold Ring of One a fan, if

(02:03:31):
you if you started watching because youreally bloody love the Sinclair show and you
really just wanted to watch Ah wrestlethe same fifteen minute match and then not
have any character progression, and nextweek is going to have the same fifteen
minute wiking matter of aditional. Butmaybe that's when it doesn't matter. I
can't believe any era of Ring ofA fan watch that show and in twenty
nineteen thought that's what that's what Iwant to see, Like everything about it

(02:03:56):
felt horribly judged it and on thisbig platform, on a platform which in
my opinion, like I'm not thisis my opinion. I think it was
a platform given to Ring of Honorby New Japan and by the elite,
and but I don't think. Idon't think, in my opinion, anything
that was happening in Rooms Honor wouldhave sold out Madison Square Garden without New
Japan and without when tickets went onsound. The idea that the Bucks and

(02:04:18):
codying O, Maga and whom everasked might be like that, maybe I'm
wrong with that, maybe I'm beingreally unkind, And I would tell that
to the face of every single personin Sinclair, like I said, every
person that was on the Roah Showthat night. Yeah, And I'm not
I'm not trying to I'm not I'mnot for one second criticizing anybody. Just
the platform was given to them bysomeone else, and it didn't feel like

(02:04:39):
there was any awareness of that,And it just felt like they steered so
hard into this, like we're goingto have like twenty minutes of Bubba A.
Dudley again, and we're going tohave like Enzo and Big Casts and
whatever the hell that was and MattTavern and like we're gonna put the We're
gonna like the Briscoe's who've done thisin like you can be on Madison Square
Garden, but like I mean,you can have like ten random minutes and

(02:05:02):
I think I think you've mentioned onthe show before, like homicides in New
York. You can't put homicide inthe Battle Royal like just like this,
nothing felt It didn't feel respectful andauthentic to either the elite and the Bullet
Club and the New Japan fans whohad given them the platform. It didn't
feel authentic and relatable to old scoringone of fans. It felt like a

(02:05:25):
really a show for the two orthree hundred people who really liked Matt Taven
or that kind of put that kindof map of Ring of Honoring, and
it just it felt to me,I felt crazy, which is as I
said, they were jumping around.Ie. It's with hindsight. Obviously,
it's easy to say that Marty Scaleshouldn't have won the Ring of One World

(02:05:45):
told that, and if that's anuncomfortable thing, I do appreciate it.
But that building was full of Elitefans, it was full of Bullet Club
fans, and it was in itwas New York, which is close to
New Jersey. Right of the threeof those people, I'm not saying that
for one second off Jaylee for theretainer title, everyone would have been elated

(02:06:06):
about it, because I don't thinkthey would have done. But of the
three people to win that win thatmatch that night, the hole that they
booked themselves into, Matt Tavern wasthe wrong way to go, and it
was the wrong way to go forMatt Tavern as well because it put Matt
Tabor. If you if you lookat twenty nineteen, Matt Taven and jay
Lee will have a one hour drawat the seventeenth Anniversary show, and it's

(02:06:27):
an incredible match. It's it's aphenomenal match, and it's another one of
those as I said, you andI I'm sure different. But I will
go to bat on the quality ofMatt Taven's work in twenty nineteen because he
deserves a lot of credit in myopinion. I think all of his matches,
Yeah, and I think all ofhis matches are belie the quality of
the position he was put into.He goes from that our draw, which

(02:06:48):
I think if they'd have sold itright and they'd have gone back to Gabe
if it was another ear and youhad Gabe on the message board going,
oh my god, this one hourdraw Matt Taven, like you need to
see this like, but very quicklyit became just another match, and they
sort of rushed into shoehorning Matt Taveninto the ladder match a Madison Square garden
when they could have easily booked lethalin Scale. You then put the belt

(02:07:13):
on Matt Taven in front of abuilding full of I mean, I mean,
I'm not an American sports fan byany means, but you put the
belt on a Boston guy in NewYork in front of a guy from New
Jersey and a bunch of people whoonly want to see Marty Scale. And
like I said, that's uncomfortable tohear about in Hinzer, given the things
that came out about. Yeah,you can't change we, you know,

(02:07:33):
on this shore. The only reasonwe say hello opportunities at eighteen videos because
we illegally don't want to have todeal with it. Of course, with
Marty, he is accused of doingwhat he he you know, admits to
doing, and it is what itis. I have nothing bad to say

(02:07:59):
about Marty the person, because I'vebeen around him and he was very pleasant.
I've got I'm the same obviously,I've been on the UK scene,
I've seen and met him many timesand to me, to my partner at
the time, he's been an absolutelyperfectly nice guy. I'm not saying that

(02:08:20):
that makes the things that have subsequentlycome out any more palatable, because they're
not. But yeah, it's um, it's yeah, like I said that
that that night. You didn't needto You didn't need to have Matt Taven
in the match, let alone havehim winning. And it hurt Matt Taven
instantly if you if you put lethit me out on this. This is
me playing like arm chair booker,and it's easy to do so. But

(02:08:43):
you put the belt on Marty thatexact exactly, and there's no that's the
brilliance of it. That's why welove progressing. There's no right or wrong
answer. Right, but you putthe belt on Marty. There you get
all the elite Bullet Club New Japanfans, You're given the big pop,
you give them the Madison quite everyone'shappy. You don't need to book a
stupid ladder match that it didn't needto be allowed to match in the first

(02:09:03):
place. You don't need to argueabout it. Well, that should be
the main event over fucking Ocado,which took by the by the way,
that was insane in itself. Likeyeah, like Matt tayor like honestly like
the instant at it anyway, againtone deaf. But then so you've got
this big baby like and again I'mcoming to be hindsight. If you have
this big baby face Marty Scale titleon, it doesn't need to be a

(02:09:26):
long one. You can put thebelt on Matt Tavern. Afterwards, You're
not fucking over your MSG crowds,You're not fucking you're not pissing off your
Bullet Club fans. But then youthen create a story with Matt Tavern taking
the belt away from this this popularbaby face, and then Taven has the
same run after that, like likehis Matt as I said, his matches
in that twenty nineteen run. Whenyou think about the fact that reportedly his

(02:09:50):
ankle or his lego whatever was gettingworse and worse and worse, the quality
of his matches are consistently really good. Like by far, in my opinion,
the best for is Ring of Onea Crib other than the Jeff Cob
match, which got buggered for timeon pay per view. Yeah, like
every one of his matches, youknow, like there's a Tracy match,
there's a Alex Shelley match from somesupercar which people only remember for the due

(02:10:13):
ball and a sleep in the frontrow. But it was a yeah,
it was a good match, likethe match loses the belt to rush is
a good match. Like there's somuch stuff in that Matt Taven running twenty
nineteen, which I'll go to batfor, but no one would ever listen
to you or defend it because ofMadison Square Garden beyond a niche group of

(02:10:37):
Ring of One who who basically becameRing of One as core fan base like
ta like take cold of Taven.I think you called them fans, and
that's not I'm not denigrating them atall, but I am saying they weren't
that small group of fans, weren'tdelivering Ring of on or enough money to
be a sustainable business or selling ourtickets, and that it feels like that
was the only group with fans wewere playing too into any I think they

(02:11:01):
were their Ring of Honor was cuttingtheir nose off despite their face, Like
all right, we're not going tobook for the fans that have been here
for the last fifteen sixteen years.We're going to book for the fans that
are here for the talent that wecurrently and as we know in wrestling,
no talent is permanent. Um,I'll say this about Matt Taven because I

(02:11:22):
obviously have been very critical. I'vereally, I've really turned this into a
Matt Taven podcast because I'm sorry.Oh, he's a very relevant topic right
now because he's he loves purple.H I love blue. Blue is close
to purple. So maybe we dohave I don't know. We both take

(02:11:43):
New York Sports teams. But no. In all seriousness, though, I
think Matt Taven and Mike Bennett isa tag team. I think they're great
together. I think those two asa tag team bring out the best skill
alls in each person. And atthe point about Mike Bennett, like Mike

(02:12:05):
Bennett, here's someone like going backto right when when right when he first
debuted in ring one, He's alwayssomeone that I've i've I've liked. I'm
not saying he's like my favorite wrestler, but there's qualities that Mike Bennett's had
from right when everyone hated him whenhe first started and was it in the
end tailoring of HD net. There'sHe's always been different in a ring of
on a setting, different in away which I think makes him much more

(02:12:28):
sorry to interrupt with me young.So I'm yeah, I like I like
Bennett and in a different way thanI like my im if you know,
I'm I like my Bennett a lotmore than Matt Taven, But I am
Yans. You're right. As ateam, they really do accentuate the skills
that each other brings in a reallyorganic way. In there, you can

(02:12:50):
see that they're close with each other, they're good from friends. That adds
to the act. And when whenyou bring Maria in as well, actually
that that could that could be weird, like like like the dude his best
mate and his wife. It neverfeels weird or forced when I like,
if you look at the way Mariaacts with like Matt Tavern, like I

(02:13:11):
said, I think we talked about, I'm sketching my like tna impact watching
these anytime. The way that Mariaacts with like Matt Tavern is a really
unique relationship in itself and a watchablepart of their dynamic, taking Mike Ben
out of it as well. Ijust think to me that those guys is

(02:13:33):
the goofy like Silly Kingdom worked betterand was more believable to me than Mad
Tven Top Guy and that's not I'mnot trying to insult or demean Matt Theven.
What I'm trying to say is thatI feel like his role is to

(02:13:54):
be a utility guy, and that'swhere he excelled as a was to being
put into a role where there werequestions, And I think you're saying that
is going back to the sort ofstemming out of MSG. He could have
been, in my opinion, ina position where you felt more comfortable,

(02:14:16):
what looking at him as a topguy, because he could have been put
in a storyline where you were moreinterested in seeing it, which, as
I said, I think Marty's girlwent in the belt and getting the baby
face bullet club. Yeah we laughed, New Japan and not Ring of Honor
part of that that and then thenRing of Honors like oh man with purple,

(02:14:37):
like Matt Taven speaks and maybe evennext show takes it from him instantly,
You've got that's more of an organicconnection with it than yeah that that
next show would have been in Columbus, it would have been the experience where
the fans picked the opponent. Butif there truly is a demand for Matt

(02:14:58):
Taven to be the role champion allright, Marty Scroll lines up his first
title defenses, you stacked the deck, you put Haven and I don't know
Burger and and whoever else and DaltonCastle is the three first challengers. Fans
vote for Matt Taven. Matt Tavenmaybe wins on some sort of fuck finish
and wins the title and then saysyou fans, you voted for me.

(02:15:22):
You you picked me. I'm yourchampion. You picked me to be in
this. But I remember what wasafter this? It was, I said,
a villain club, villain enterprises,bum the Kingdom for the six man
titles, and it just you couldhave done everything the other way around common
where it was it was, wasit masters of the Craft. But yeah,

(02:15:45):
I can said, look like Isaid, like even if you don't
do it as the experience, likelike you just I just think that the
whole Tavern run could have been flippedto not just become more palatable, become
a genuine drawing piece of trust forring up on it, because you could
have, you would have captured abit more in residual interest that Madison Square

(02:16:05):
Garden New Japan Bullet Club era fanshad. You've obviously got the interest of
the on a club crew Taven fans, and like, as I said,
I'm not I'm not the biggest MattTaven fan, but I do understand the
logic of wanting to create a newstar, wanting to use the platform of
Madison Square Garden say this is ourproduct. But it just everything about that

(02:16:26):
show felt completely timeed deaf, andit sort of it didn't it was It
wasn't. That wasn't the reason.Before that show even started. That night,
Carry comes down, he's got suedon, big smile on his face,
he's excited, he's fired up,and you're never gonna believe it.

(02:16:50):
They can't find the legal letter thatsays we can play locomotive breath come out
as he came out to every SoCarrie comes out to this generic roh you
know, declare song and I'm justsitting there going you really need to get

(02:17:11):
your sort of your impression of ringof on a generic entrance themes there,
Yeah, you know that could bea hit, but I'm just like,
I'm like, what the what thefu? Like, this is not no
go back there until your song isapproved. Like it just started out on

(02:17:33):
such a bad note and it justfed on from there from the end zone
and cast stuff to forty minutes ABob A Ray Dudley or what however long
it was. And you know theworst, the worst about the working banging
on about the Madison swagger. ButI really think it's a really really important
crew point in Ring of On ahistory and why the Ring of Honor that

(02:17:54):
we have now, which is likea shadow version. While Tony con maybe
thinks about what he wants, didyou X with it? A lot of
it comes back to a real slideindoors moment at Madison Square Gardener And there's
points before that as we talked aboutwhere they could have done more with Bullet
Club, but that night wherever andit it was such an unrealized moment of

(02:18:15):
potential for Ring of On and actuallythe show itself. Looking at it objectively
again, in my opinion, it'sa really good show. It's a really
good wrestling show. Like what I'mdoing where you're looking at the card because
you can't remember I remember a lotof I'm gonna say a Carter and j
White, it's a really good match. Um N. I had to pull

(02:18:37):
up the car and on my phoneto see specifically where certain people were slatted,
you know, like Bandido was inthat three way yeah and flip yeah
story and um dragon a Dragon Ris. It's just at least, like I

(02:19:03):
said, it's a good show.But no one, no, in my
opinion, it's not like anyone thinksto that Ring of on a New Japan
Madison Square Guns and thinks, man, that was a really good show.
I think what an embarrassment Ring ofHonor was ly if you don't agree with
me on that, but like,to me, the most notorious thing about
that show on what should have been, like you said, like carries there

(02:19:24):
and is too like I mean,I don't know, okay, but I'm
sure that was the absolute realization pinnacleof this this guy that's lost so much
money supposed to be the pinnacle.It was supposed to be a celebration.
And I think you every inch ofwhat Ring of Honor was from. Yeah,
And I think you said that youwent there exactly for that, like
you went there to celebrate like thisjourney that you've been on Ring of Honor,

(02:19:46):
and actually it sort of became likeyou're putting your head like you're in
you're in hardcamer and you're at pointslike putting your head in your hands like
dead Center, Hardcamy and I itwas not an emotion of anger like I
had after the Cabana thing in Chicago, where I yelled at Joe offf uh

(02:20:09):
I bet he did not. Ohmy god, I screamed at him.
I'm almost like Greg gil Land wasstanding probably fifteen feet from him, and
I could see him like just quietlytry and sneak away. Um. But
I viscerally was fucking furious after thatshow, and I yelled at Joe Off

(02:20:35):
and whatever. Then I went andbought Young Bucks stuff. But yeah,
something like I said that start,it was just disappointment, and it was
appointment is a worse anger than isa worse emotion than anger, Well,
it is when you're trying to usethe platform of that game to spread And
my honest opinions, I genuinely thinkit was done with the best of intention,

(02:20:58):
like this is going to reinvigorate interestin our product, and here's the
direction we're going in, and itwas just all wrong. And you can
sort of track like after that.There's so many like little mess ups from
Ring of Honor in twenty nineteen.So you've got the Bubbare Dudley thing where
he like drags someone backstage and yellat them. And you've got whether the
absolutely mess when they people were genuinelyinterested, in my opinion, in Matt

(02:21:22):
Table against Jeff Cobb for Best inthe World that year, and they messed
the car up so much they givethem like seven minutes or whatever it was.
And then there's the stuff with Joeynot Joey joe Joey Joey Mercury.
Yeah, like all that stuff thatcomes out and it just and the guy
falling asleep in the crowd for AlexShelley met him. There's so many little

(02:21:43):
things that year which paint the pictureof this company and decline, where in
my opinion, if you do littlethings differently in Madison Square Garden, it
does completely defer. It means thatby the time you get to the end
of twenty nineteen you could have thisslightly more reinvigorated, vibrant product. You
look at the guys who've got inthe car, Bandido, who's an incredible

(02:22:03):
for the fact that ring remember aroundpull In when Bandido came in out.
I'm aware that obviously the main eventof all In didn't get much time Homer,
but like Bandido was such a hotproperty, and it was people were
so certain he would just go intoaw and Ring of Honor signed him and
people I n and they most toturn Bandido, who is this hot commodity

(02:22:26):
into just this guy who's who's agood wrestler. Yeah, the whole idea
around, like, Okay, theelite all leave at the end of twenty
eighteen, twenty nineteen, we're goingto start out hot. We're gonna have
Juice Robinson life Blood. Their entrancetheme was terrible each Blood. Did it

(02:22:48):
sound like this, I don't knowwhat I'm booking. Yeah, that was
pretty much. Yeah, I thinkrecord Life life Blood, and it was
the idea of or a Ring ofHonor. We can take established talent that
leaves and just replace them. Everybody'sreplaceable, just create new people. And

(02:23:09):
the degeneration of Ring of Honor intwenty nineteen, the fact that they brought
Life Blood in and then by themiddle of the year it's just gone because
half the live one's injured or leftand it's just Tracy Williams and Mark Haskins.
Bless them. I love both ofus. They've got the great restless,
bouncing around like what are we doingnow? Like, yeah, it
literally was this just I'm gonna throwa bunch of shit at the wall and

(02:23:33):
see what sticks. Daniel Dashwood wasin Lifeblood for one show. Uh,
It's just it was the slow deathand you could feel it and it sucked.
And that's why I was like theGarden in a way to me was

(02:23:54):
the perfect ending for I was afterafter MSG and and we talk about like,
you know, like there aren't You'reright, they're probably and this sounds
I'm not trying to be arrogant orblown, but there aren't a lot of
people who I think there's I thinkthat I can tip of like me,
there's a review who I really like, a big red machine, a couple

(02:24:16):
of others who who sort of trackback and have done everything from like old
to current day. You see veryfew reviewers who who have sort of gone
through that entire ring of honor journeyand the closest I've come to being like
I know, you know, I'vefallen behind, But it was Madison Square
going So I wasn't angry or evendisappointed. It was just it was indicative

(02:24:39):
of that this is not for me. It's not like it's not this,
it's not even that, it's notmy ring of honest, like it takes
it. I mean you, Imean we've been talking for a long time.
I like this being historians or documentingthis, this journey in this product
takes a lot of our time,like and it's just like for me,

(02:25:00):
like writing a review of anything justtakes so long, like it's such an
old like written media. It's suchan old fashioned thing now like I don't
know, like it just it waslike it's not worth my time, like
I've got I don't need to Idon't need to watch this. It took.
It genuinely took probably until that summerSupercard show for me. I think
I can't remember they did it forfree or it was, but that was

(02:25:24):
I came back to watch that andI enjoyed the show. I remember being
really sad about having to watch theBriscos and the Gorillas beat themselves to a
pulp in in front of like ahalf full building. Yeah for no money.
I mean there's no no live game, like they're just getting their base
salary and it's none. I knewit was a decent crowd for that era,

(02:25:45):
very it's like it was a butit's just like the building, like
every every every like you I'm sureyou remember every basically every Ring of Honor
show. They put this huge buildingand they were like a hunder people in
it, and like every every everywebsite had like, h here's Ring of
Honor, like like guess it was. It was. It was a sad,
sad so it was. It wasa depressing product to watch. So
it's just sad to think that,you know, what should have been a

(02:26:09):
celebration, it's nah. And Iremember I flew home the next morning and
went straight to visit my grandfather atthe nursing home, and I told him
about the show, and he gottago go go stick with this aw whatever
it's going to be. That thatseems more or of something you'll care about

(02:26:37):
if you're if you're coming home froma trip where you're usually super excited,
you're just moping. And I wasgoing to go to Columbus to that next
you know, two day loop Columbusin Pittsburgh, I think it was,
and um, my grandfather passed awayon I think a Thursday. That show

(02:27:03):
would have been a Saturday or aSunday maybe, and I didn't go and
that was it, and now it'sTony Kahn's property. Um so I guess
that's where we look forward and thenwe'll kind of finish on a positive note.

(02:27:24):
What does the future of our ohlook like? But we're talking about
this a bit affairs. Well,the honest answer is if he had finished
a Final Battle twenty twenty one,I thought that was a good end point,
whether we can debate the merits ofSinclair or till the end of time,
and we've done it for the bestpart of an hour. It was

(02:27:46):
an end point. It was areally good show in my opinion. The
help that they got from other companiesaw to and it was it was a
good end point. What I reallyliked about Supercard this year was and I
think, I said, this ismy review, is it felt like whereas
the Final Battle felt like at theend of Sinclair, Ring of Honor for

(02:28:09):
better or Worse, with Superclards feltlike a celebration of I think that.
I think I said along the linesof it thrown through the shackles off of
like the Sinclair corporate and it wasn'tlike it was what Ring of One used
because nobody wants to see what Ringof Wane it used to be anymore.
But it felt authentic to what Ringof One it was. And it wasn't
what It was a celebratory show andI was happy with that. Yeah,

(02:28:33):
before this on I probably didn't strikequite the same note for me, but
it was it was. It wasagain another really good show. You can
see the ideas of you. Ihave a problem in my opinion, and
this is me. I have aproblem with Tony Kahn looking Ring of Honor
AW everything else. And I understandand he's very open, like it's in

(02:28:56):
these press conferences. He's very clearly, very proud and very passionate that he's
like everything that we do like itgoes like it goes through me. I've
said, this is it, andthat's that's his thinking. Do what he
wants with it. I think therewas an opportunity with if he's genuine about
making Ring of Honor as this secondbrand, this developmental brand. I think
there's enough knowledge and talent with anAW. I don't think Tony Khan needs

(02:29:20):
to book it as well in myopinion, like like I mean, you've
got people like Regal who've been partof that NXT system. There was a
point where again gabelself, but therewas a point where Gabel was available.
I'm not saying that Gabe for asecond. We're coming and what we're talking
about like me, Like, it'sjust I think that it's spreading himself too.
And so if the goal is genuinelyto create Ring of Honor as this
second brand, this developmental brand,that it needs to be different and I'm

(02:29:46):
not sure that currently it feels differentenough. What I would say is the
last couple of months, I havereally enjoyed how the ringal Honor brand is
presenting on television. And I thinkwe've talked this about a lot of like
that. You can debate the meritsof what happened with John Gresham, like
I love Gresham, and do Ithink that the way Tony and Tony Corn

(02:30:07):
and all aw booked Gresha was particularlypalatable? Probably not. But then as
much as I love John Gresham,he's a he's not the most TV friendly
performers. He's not got the biggestmarket. And Claudia, it's so simple,
are you gonna pay to see Claudia? Okay? Ali, are you

(02:30:30):
gonna pay to see Jonathan Gresham?Yeah? And look I said and I
all, honestly, I think andlike I said, obviously there's reports about
what happened. I get if Greshamwas irritated, but I do get it
because I think everything about the wayhe was presented in the runouts that show
was a bit of a mess.And that goes for the Tully Blanchward stuff
that goes for Prince Nana. Look, I mean you and I we both

(02:30:50):
love Prince Snana, like him reappearingand it's the embassy. Now I'm sure
you are the same as me.I'm like, oh, that's brilliant.
But if you're if you're Jonathan Gresham, You're like, that makes no sense,
Like nothing about this helps me.Um, that's where you say to
yourself as a performer, I haveto go make the best of a engineer
situation and I'm gonna go out thereand I'm gonna maximize in my minute.

(02:31:15):
Yeah. And so since that,I said, I loved Claudier's run ever,
and we took as basically just hisIt felt like his role was it
doesn't matter what what he was doing. You were just going to push put
him out there and it was goingto deliver a wicked match. And to
me, that's what ring of isit? It's absolutely core just we're gonna
go out that we're gonna have agreat However, have you ever seen Claudio

(02:31:37):
have a bad match? I've seenhim with disappointing matches. Um, I'll
throw on at you. The thefirst world title match he has with Nigel,
was it? Hammerstein like yeah,in a vacuum, though, is
that a bad match? If youdo just what he was capable of,
is it a bad match? It'sperfectly it's a perfectly like I said,

(02:32:00):
have I seen her? What I'msaying is like, yeah, no,
I don't think he intentionally goes outto have it like now go up and
have a bad match exactly. AndI love I love that role for him,
and I felt that was a strongpresentation of the ring of on a
brand if there's no TV, it'slike, well, look here's here's this
ring of on a belt where we'renot presenting on the same level as AW

(02:32:22):
title, but what it's going tobe synonymous with is really good wrestling.
And and and again we discussed this. I like the jed, I like
the idea behind what they're going todo with Jericho, and I thought it
again increases the profile of the Ringof on a brand. So to take
it back to the original point,if it had ended a fine about,
I was happy. If it hadended a supercard, I was happy.

(02:32:43):
Now I'm the biggest compliment I canpay is a point from going back to
Madison Square Garden, where I waslike, I'm I'm not I'm not being
a diva, but I'm out likethis like this this isn't for me now
like I don't. I'm not allin on for one of the better time,
I'm not all in on aw.I don't religiously watch it every week.

(02:33:03):
The honest impact of Ring of Oneas closure is I watch a lot
less wrestling. And that's not tosay that Ring of Honor was by any
means my favorite wrestling company for thelast like ten years. But for better
or worse, that's that's been likemy niche in the online space. That
that's why, well you know,I've reviewed every show every TV like that's
the other stoopers. I watch alot that's wrestling now, um, But

(02:33:24):
the biggest company I can give isthat from that low in managin, I'm
genuinely interested in what's happening currently,like whether they can turn that into a
TV video, whether they could,whether or whether do you know what?
They just leave it at that andwe get a perfully nice streaming library where
we can access this amazing footage andenjoy it. Um, yeah, I'm

(02:33:48):
happy with I like you. I'mvery happy it didn't end up being part
of the WW network and just beingpulled to pieces to benefit the narrative or
whichever a person try to build up. And will we celebrated, which it
should because it's such an influential umcatalogo media. It's the most influential wrestling

(02:34:09):
promotion outside of the WW. It'smore influential on wrestling than wcw ever was.
It's more influential than ecw ever was. It certainly is more influential than
TNA. And you can go backand you can say, oh, you

(02:34:30):
know you WF and some of theterritory and you know Stampede this, and
you know, on the United Stateswrestling landscape, there is no promotion that
has affected the wrestling industry the wayRing of Honor did not. I'm arguing

(02:34:50):
that until I'm blue in the face. Yeah, and to me, that's
not that's not a gay thing.That's not cary thing. That's every error
of Ring of Honor has produced thosepeople. And like I said, going
right through to the dying days ofSinclair, there's there's guys on that show
who who will be like I said, like Bandido when they got Like Bandido
will be massive, like I like, whether he'll be as big as he

(02:35:11):
could have been? Like I said, every era there are guys that have
come through a Ring of Honor anddone good things there and gone out and
done and really actively contributed to ourlives as progressing fans. Yeah, no,
I'm not whether I agree or not. The argument you've just made their

(02:35:33):
is in controvertible. You can't disputethe influence that it's had as a as
a promotion. That's where credit needsto be heat upon Kerry Silkin for spending
beyond his means. It needs togo on to Sinclair. As much as

(02:35:54):
I hate to give them any credit. Are you going to give Austinari's credit?
How much as Austinarios to UM aboutpoint one percent? No, like
he had some great matches. Thefirst time I met so uh anarchy in
the UK. So I didn't goto Unified UM. I went to oxyd

(02:36:16):
United against. I know, terribledecision. I went to OXYG United against
I think Halifax Town, maybe Ican say so basically it's the meeting group
before the anarchy, you know,like trough your ironol. So like you
like, I'm there by myself inthis toilet, in this restroom, going
about my business. The door opens, Austin Areas and Roderick Strong walking like

(02:36:39):
there's a whole bathroom that but thepair of him come and stand like literally
like basically a shoulders shoulders squishing mein like laughing their heads off, and
it's just like it's like what areyou two doing? Like like they don't
know me, Like it's just likelike like I'm just like that's the that's
my first ever interaction with Austin Areas. And and as I said, like
I'm a big proparmner of being afan, so I don't have to like

(02:37:01):
I just get to watch these peopleon on David on television, like seeing
them in the flash being squished betweenthem a rhino not my thing. So
I'm gonna I'm gonna shed one littleinsight into that because that strikes me as
being a Roderick Strong. He wasgiggling like a it's a it's a Roddy

(02:37:22):
idea, because Roddy is just ahappy, go lucky child. Like he
he's a dad, he's a husband, he's a pro muscular individual. He
is one of the greatest in ringcardio athletes ever. But Roddy is in

(02:37:43):
fact a giant child. The firsttime I ever met him, uh,
he thought I was somebody else.UM, and I let me see if
I can find this conversation. UM. I had a conversation with a couple
of friends of mine on Facebook messenger, and I can't find the specific phrasing.

(02:38:11):
But there was somebody that was onthe CZW fans message board that had
said some derogatory things about Roddy thathappened to look like two thousand and five
me so little, heavy set,facial hair. I don't know. Maybe
he was a Duke fan, maybenot, I don't know. And Roddy

(02:38:35):
came up, grabbed me in thebar at the New Yorker Hotel, spun
me around and says, why areyou talking shit about me on the internet.
It's really disappointing that habit on myhead. There is what our strong
impression at this point because I wouldhave preally helped this. Broh, why
are you talking shit about me onthe message board? And I'm like,

(02:38:58):
what are you talking about? Andhe goes, aren't you and the name
of the poster escapes me, andI'm like, but message word, are
you talking about cz W? AndI'm like, ridy, I'm not on
there. Sorry, he's not.He goes, you're not whatever the user's
name the boy I think might havebeen his name, and I'm like,

(02:39:20):
no, that is not me.I have a different four letter message board
name. And he's like, oh, what's your yes message board j s
w abvius. Oh shit, Andthen he wanted to hit you for a
whole different reason and said no.He's like, you fucking love me,
You're a big fucking fan. Andthe effort is in the middle of every

(02:39:43):
sentence for the next like ten minutes. So we're having this conversation and it's
I'm always really cognizing when I'm writing, like I said, I'm not for
one second thing that anyone cares enoughto read about. Well, I mean,
I mean, I don't think anyof us at the time, but
in that sort of message board orwe're really aware of that we're talking about
people like we're hurting themselves, likegiving everything they've got to themselves, and

(02:40:05):
we're just like like, So I'mparticularly as i've got older, tried to
be a bit more like, Ohand for me, if there's something I
don't like, unless it's Rush againstPCO and that's stupid Friday the thirteen.
Yeah, Like, for the mostpart, the thing I always trying to
do is talk about what I like, and if I don't, just move

(02:40:26):
on, Like, here's here's thething. I when when Rush came in,
I didn't I'd never seen him before, but I had heard that he
was difficult to do business with.But when he wanted to work, he
was upper echelon and right up myalley. And so I went and I

(02:40:46):
looked up a bunch of Rush matchesand I thought, holy shit, this
guy is maybe they got me again, maybe they found something and then they
they build them up and I'm kindof enjoying. I loved what he did
at the Garden with Dalton Castle.I thought it was very creative. It

(02:41:07):
was not what I expected. Iliked. I like that might have been
my favorite ROH centric match on Itwas, like I said, it was
exactly talking about what do you wantfrom a match? But what all people
needed from that? We need DaltonCastle was gonna lose. We wanted to
see Dalton Castle. I have afun entrance, accomplished entertain minutes. But

(02:41:28):
here's the thing. So like theytropp Pco out out of the moth balls
and they put him against Rouge forthe title and I'm just getting into the
Rouge run and Pco beats him.It's not even that Again, not to
go back to talking Sinclair decisions,but it's not even the decision that offended

(02:41:52):
me so much. It was justawful mat and how how much money they
must have spent on this hearse andthese like theatrics and there's stilly like goofy
weapons around. It's just like,what, like you didn't need to do
any of this, Like, likeI said, time deaf and just a
complete disconnect between the reality of whatwhere wrestling fandom was in the late teens

(02:42:16):
early twenties versus what Ring of Honorwas offering. Was so out of sync.
But yeah, I'd like they didn'tknow their audience. And I think
that's the end. But I wantto end this on one strong note.
We've kind of alluded to the reviewsand stuff. What inspired you to start

(02:42:37):
doing those? Because there's some ofthe best written, detailed, informational,
but yet at the same time morethey have mass appeal. What what inspired
you to start writing these amazing reviewsthat have new old sweet talking. They

(02:43:01):
have aided this podcast in many ways, not only in terms of research,
but also like providing context for certainthings. And sometimes you go with my
match times rather than cage matches,which are always, in my opinion,
a second out. So I'm alwaysvery grateful. I'm like, yeah,
I sometimes will time a match ifI'm watching the show just to see how

(02:43:24):
off I am. And I'm neverclosed. So yeah, I Well,
the honest answer is and and I'malways as I said, I'm aware that
I'm never I've never been arrest I'mnever going to be arrest. As the
thing that I'm always constantly is Idon't really like breaking down nitty gritty details

(02:43:48):
all that much because the honest Idon't know what happens in a wrestling match.
I don't pretend to. I don'teven want to. What inspire me
to be a to start writing reviewselse is that I'm a big proponent for
being a wrestling fan and the fanexperience, but like anything else. And
this was true when I started intwo thousand and one, and it's still

(02:44:09):
true in twenty twenty two now bottomold. It's that we've only got so
much money to spend on this passionand why are you going to spend money
to watch something? And particularly theRing of Honor? Like you you loved
about it was because I wanted totalk about how much I love Ring Honor.
And I'm just like, look,these matches are incredible. Here's why

(02:44:31):
they're incredible. As it's gone on, my niece has sort of been well,
I'm not historian, but yeah,I can said no one else is
watching this now, like I mightas well keep going, And I might
as well keep going. It's butto me, and actually, then I
think your show is a good example. It's a useful aid to people because

(02:44:52):
there is a lot of Sinclair content. We've spent the last hour and a
bit trashing twenty nineteen. There's somereally good stuff from a Ring of Runner
in twenty nineteen. They did somereally good stuff in a half of twenty
Every year, Yeah, and Ilike and I like celebrating it, and
I like talking about the things thatI liked and I like talking. I

(02:45:13):
like helping people spend their money andtheir time wisely, and I like celebrating
the work of the wrestlers that Ilike to watch work. Um who you
might know other ways see like Imean, I don't know about you,
but I don't go down the streetand see a lot of like I don't
know, like hot sauce, TracyWilliams fans. I love Tracy Williams.
I could watch the guy wrestle allday like and it's just but not I

(02:45:35):
like, I just like I saidthat. That's so. That's it's It
takes unlike your podcast, It takesa lot of time, it takes a
lot of effort, but it's abouta wanting to help, wanting to help
people and want to help people spendtheir time and spend the money and not
waste it, but then support andshow show a way of supporting the things

(02:45:58):
that you love doing. So Ithink it's such an interesting, um like
an interesting manifestation of how you shareyour love of wrestling. I think everybody
has a different way of expressing themselves. And this podcast was, you know,

(02:46:18):
my love letter to Ring of Honor. Um. And and having hagar
On along the ride is super importantas well for providing context. It's interestingly,
it's not I'm not saying it's pointof view. Yeah. And and
like you said, you started itas a way for to give him almost
therapy to somewhat tautma agend to hisRing of Honor experience. But you look

(02:46:41):
at where Shane Hagaryon is now,like you know, he's in wrestling,
and he's like he's an important partof that this aw machine. Like that,
I'm not saying that your podcast.I I'm sure his hard work is
it's probably got more to do withit. But like it, Yeah,
like you said, it's it's it'sa way of showing your passion or reigniting
your passion. Um. I seesome some reviewers, and I'm sure you

(02:47:05):
see podcasts the thing where people italmost feels like people want to see stuff
fail or go wrong or go badlybecause it gives them more to talk about.
That's not that's not for me,Like I don't enjoy watching bad wrestling
around, Like I don't need Ilike talking about what I like or what
I love or what I enjoy,and I'm sure you're the other same unless
you're talking about apparently yeah that yeah, I mean it shows special bad um.

(02:47:31):
I either want to see things reallysucceed, and I think that's kind
of the big reason that a Wis so important to me, regardless of
how things win. AW is soimportant to professional wrestling because it shows that

(02:47:52):
alternatives to WW can succeed if yougive them the right time and the right
investment, the right platform. That'sit's not always the product for me,
but I am always in kind ofsupportive, not because I need, not
because like wrestling needed, but itwrestling needs diversity and competition and a different
approach and the only platform that isequipped to do that in a viable long
term way to WW right now isAW, which is why it is so

(02:48:15):
important. It's what I always sayto people that you're not to me,
I'm not gonna see anything that Ilike. There's lots of people that I
like, and conceptually AW is themost important thing happening right now, potentially
until Vintimate Man's withdraw from WW,because obviously that changes the landscape again,
but AW is so important. Thething is too with AW, there's a

(02:48:39):
lot of really likable people that areinvolved, not just on the wrestling side
of the equation, but on theproduction and the broadcasting. I mean,
Tony Trevanni is having the ultimate comebackstory and that just makes me the happiest.
Excaliburs on TV every week, likecan you believe? Like when we're
watching like PWG shows, like inlike two thousand and six seven, like

(02:49:01):
that guy who was like for oneof the bed time was saying some wildly
inappropriate stuff. It's now like onnational team and getting action figures. Like
yeah, how about Alex Marvez,who I've been reading since I was six
years old in the newspaper is abackstage correspond I'm not going to pretend I
wasn't happy when they benched him frombeing a commentator, but absolutely, and

(02:49:26):
I think Alex will tell you heis a much better writer than he is
a broadcaster, and that's two incrediblydifferent mediums. But yeah, I've been
reading Marvez's football columns since I wasfirst able to read a newspaper six years
old. Sports section. You know, obviously, ex Calar, Chivanni Taz,

(02:49:48):
who's probably I guarantee you he's myfavorite ECW wrestler at all time.
Kaz and Mike Awesome are the time, Michael somewhat col there, there is
there is a rootable quality aw hasthat ring of honor had and at the

(02:50:11):
end of the day, as youknow, almost forty year old guys,
we can look back in our lifetimesand say we saw WCW exist, we
saw impact try and fill that void'son nineties or Japan like, I mean
we saw it, we saw iton tight but we saw it well,

(02:50:31):
or we saw it on Khaza orMorpheus and then on tape and now and
now all on our SSD somewhere ofit. Yeah, yeah, I mean
it's like there's there has just beensuch an incredible variety combined with access to
Can I throw one more? CanI throw one more in? Because I

(02:50:54):
love it and it's a Lucher Undergroundlike it's a complete niche thing, but
I love, I love silly.Getting it in the UK is next thing
impossible. But yeah, I've gotso much time for Luta Underground and trying
to do something different. Yeah,and it produced guys that I value as

(02:51:15):
performers and Jellico Jack Evans part ofthe part of the reason I don't enjoy
Pent and Ray Phoenix as much asAW. It's because I love the way
they were presented in Luca Underground somuch that actually Aw's version, whilst more
mainstream and more traditional to progressing quwas so weird and different and fun and

(02:51:39):
yeah like yeah, sorry, Ijust want to say, given promotions that
we get to see, I'll throwanother one out there, a AW in
Chicago doctor Keith's promotion, like withDanny Daniels, We're going to go all
night now ship with Shimmer. Yeah, I mean, there's there's a whole
world, and I'm I'm not goingto sit here and pretend that everything is

(02:52:01):
for me. And then I loveall of wrestling, but there are certain
things that I see from other promotions. Uh. I'll give you a great
example, the renaissance of pro wrestlingnoah uh. And it's it is like
they're they've taken what I love andadded new guys doing it. So the

(02:52:28):
Kobashi, Massawa, etc. Styleis there, but also Kenta and Marafuji
and their influence has somehow you stillgo in somehow Ghostia Zaki is you know,
tearing it up there. There's thisit's a it's an amalgamation of all

(02:52:50):
these different styles that exist all overthe world in wrestling, and we can
watch it all without having to waitfor a tape to come in the mail,
without having to press a button tobuy a pay per view, without
having to wait for a buy threeget one free sale. Yes and no

(02:53:11):
to buy three get one free.Uh give us all your social media plugs
and where we can find you onthe internet. Uh wow, thanks for
asking. So as of like thisweek, you can just go to mazow
that's MCXL dot com and you'll getto my review sit Like, how cool
is that. I've never had adot com before. I'm quite exciting,
So mzow dot com and then lookfor Maxile's reviews on Twitter and Instagram.

(02:53:35):
I'm absolutely lousy a social media I'mI'm not. It's not for me particularly,
So you can say you won't.I won't be cluttering up your news
feeds with much or giving you muchto follow. But yeah, follow me
on TikTok is the kids. We'vebeen looking at each other for the last
four and a bit hours. HaveI done anything remotely TikTok working my friend?

(02:53:56):
I don't think so, I don'tknow what we're you know, other
than yeah, A couple of friends, a couple of friends of mine,
are like, you gotta get TikTok, And I'm like, what the fuck
do I need TikTok for? Howall your all your rants about Austinaris,
all the times that you really likerat tig, I mean maybe really tiny

(02:54:20):
rants, right if they're about Austinaries. Come on, all the times you've
complained about Final Battle two thousand andnine, that one hour draw, which
I maintain is about a match thanyou than you guys think, just not
it's uh. Honestly, that wasprobably one of the happiest days of my

(02:54:43):
life because I graduated college that dayand I missed an hour long and I
missed a snowstorm in New York Cityafter a night in Manassas, Virginia I
think was the mate before. Uh. So, Yes, I was very
happy to be at home, uhand to be with with my family and
miss Austin Airis and Tyler Black.Austin Airis magnus opus, his delightful masterpiece.

(02:55:11):
Yes, master probably wouldn't be themasterpiece necessarily be the word I would
describe that matchually Austin Airis, butdude, like this has been so much
fun and it's super late in theUK. Let me start in the morning.

(02:55:31):
That's how much I've enjoyed a company, my friend, Like this has
been a blast. We've got suchgood content. I think there's room for
like volume two to break down somestuff in a more. If you want
me back, I'll be back wheneveryou want. Maybe, well, maybe
we'll talk about more um Sinclair orrunabout that. Chris and I we do

(02:55:52):
need like a third head in theroom sometimes when we talk about the Sinclair
era, because haggar On and Iwere both, you know, staring off
into the clouds of Michigan State footballlosing to Ohio State every year. And
I cannot believe Shan Hagadon was removedfrom his position and didn't immediately think,
Man, I really want to keepwatching this product. Shocking on that note,

(02:56:18):
Thank you so much. Stay tunedfor a Patreon commercial and I'll look
ahead in some social media plot.He's gonna he's gonna tell you that he's
gonna tell you that he sounds coolon the other side of the pillow.
Again, that's what he's gonna tellyou. It may actually be be recorded
tomorrow, and we'll see if Isound cool, because I'm gonna be getting

(02:56:43):
ready to go watch the Guardians andthe Yankees in the ALCS, and I
may be doing a lot of yelling, So we'll see, we'll see.
Thank you for having me, butthank you so much for doing this,
and thanks for all the great reviews. Head over to mix all dot com
mc x AL and check out allthe reviews. There's so much, in

(02:57:05):
fact right now on the front page. Um Shimmer Volumes thirty three through forty
five, Death for Us Honor nineteen, Supercard of on Or fourteen, and
King's Road Chronicles nineteen ninety one Parttwo. Sounds sounds like a lot to
read, and there's sometimes I justgo to the gym and just open up

(02:57:30):
the website and start reading. Yeah. Yeah, while listening to a podcast
not music. I see you rollingyour eyes at me. Yeah, it's
not what I do. I listenedto you at the gym, so you
know whom to Joe? Yeah that'strue, fair point. Thanks brother,
This was This is fantastic. Ireally appreciate it. I want to hear

(02:57:54):
the AD three version of this showand get it early. Become a paid
for me today. At pagereon dotcom slash an hororable Pod. If you
become a patron, you'll get earlyand add free access to the show with
several tiers to choose from that startedjust a few blucks a month, and
each tier comes with more bonus perkslike bonus content, merch and so much

(02:58:16):
more. Support the show at pagereondot com slash an Hoorable Pod and get
early, add free access, andbe worthy of an honorable mention. Well
like everybody's honorable journeys that we've discussedover the past few weeks and months in
the last few years that we've beendoing this pod, everybody has their own
unique story, and with Mixell,I don't think we really got into into

(02:58:45):
deep into his story, but itwas fun to share a little perspective on
not only why he writes in hisreviews, but traveling to shows and the
message board tales and tape trading andum. I think it's it's always fun
when you have a guest that actuallylistens to the show as well, so

(02:59:05):
you can you know, we're banteringback and forth and misal and I we
we kid each other, but itis funny because you know the message board
people don't really know what that iswhen they see Twitter and they think,
oh, Twitter is this toxic placefull of nonsense, And in reality,

(02:59:28):
Twitter is is far more toxic thanI think message boards ever wore. But
hey, you know Misal he loveswrestling, he loves writing about wrestling,
and you can find him now umon the web. He's he's got his

(02:59:50):
own website. So just head overto mix All Reviews dot yolasite dot com.
But it's actually good to be justmix all dot com going forward.
So Death before Us, Honor nineteen, Supercard of Honor fourteen, and Shimmer
thirty three through forty six. That'ssome of the newest writings from our guy.

(03:00:11):
And you can contact him on Twitter. He is at mick x a
l Reviews, So mc x aLS reviews on Twitter. Go give him
a follow. Same with Instagram,give m a follow. He's got the
co branded handles. Give him afollow there. And speaking of social media,

(03:00:33):
you can find us at an HonorablePod. You can find us that's
Twitter and Instagram for at an HonorablePod, Patreon dot com, Backslash an
Honorable Pod, Bonus material show onvideo. The show early ed free quite
frankly if you're listening on Patreon,you're not even hearing this part of the
show. You can find me onTwitter at mister Jeff Schwartz zero. That's

(03:00:56):
also my Instagram handle. You cango on Facebook and be my friend.
Please, somebody get me out ofsix hundred and sixty six followers. Just
search to Jeff space Schwartz Schwartz shw A r t Z. You can
find my partner at Hagendort Shane.He's on Twitter and Instagram Shane Hagendoran on

(03:01:18):
Facebook at Code of Honor book onTwitter, it's coming to a bookstore near
you, or if you don't havea bookstore near you, it'll be on
Amazon by it, by it,by five ten copies. I don't care.
I'm gonna be in the book.So I'm just honored, happy to
be here, I guess. Andthen of course Facebook dot com backslash and

(03:01:41):
Honorable Pod, YouTube dot com backslashand Honorable Mention Podcast. There's slide shows,
there's shows of the Week, matchesnon roh matches of the week.
All of our Patreon content is behindthe paywall over at YouTube, so be
sure to check that out. Gonnabe doing some shows eventually Survival of the

(03:02:03):
Fittest twenty eighteen Death portis Honor sevenNight one and nine two, And if
you're listening to this as it airs, All the Wrestling announced that Ring of
Honor will be having Final Battle twentytwenty two and that will be taking place
December tenth in Dallas, Texas atthe University of Texas at Arlington, so

(03:02:26):
go check that out. So we'llprobably be doing some Final Battle heavy shows,
Final Battle Pole possibly and of courseour Hall of Fame episode at the
end of the year. But I'mgonna be taking a dip into the vacation
pool from the pod for a littlebit as I recover from my ankle surgery
and get you tuned in with somefamily time. My niece is turning one,

(03:02:52):
so my family will all be herevisiting and celebrating. Will also be
dealing with some work stuff and somehome improvements stuff while I'm on the mend.
So looking forward to coming back toyou guys in the month in November.
Re energized, ready to go.And if you're looking for other great

(03:03:16):
ROH content through the years, thr OH with Trevor and Matt, check
that out and anything on the CreativeControl Network, which is why you should
head over to Twitter and follow thehead of the Creative Control Network, mister
Joe Feeney. He is at JWFhaha, w haha, NYY three r

(03:03:37):
D and at the CC network oneon Twitter for all the latest news and
notes on the Creative Control Network.Be sure to follow our verified Sciences of
Sound, our astronaut of audio orperveyor production. The Ace of Action figures
the voice of video games, theBassmaster General, the technication of treble,
the best broadcast machine, the awardwinning autocrat of advertisement, the cleaner of

(03:03:58):
audio. Mister Zach Johnson. He'son Twitter and Instagram at Radio ZT and
he delivers us the best intro andoutro every single week. Make sure that
we sound cooler than the other sideof the pillow. I do want to
take note before I talk about Carnelland Kate, to mention the Unsolved Mystery

(03:04:18):
show airing on Netflix. Be sureto check out their social media. Just
search Twitter for Unsolved Mysteries on Netflix. You may be seeing a familiar face
if you watch us do the podon Patreon. You may be here your

(03:04:39):
familiar voice while associating it with anew face on season three of Unsolved Mysteries.
So, anyone with information regarding themurder of my dear friend Carneal Sledge
and his friend Katherine Brown is askedto please call the Federal Bureau of Investigation
for the City of Cleveland, Ohiotwo one six six to two six eight

(03:05:00):
four two. You can remain anonymous. There's one hundred thousand dollars reward that
will be distributed to you upon convictionso that we can get justice for Carnell
and Kate. We are doing everythingimaginable, of course. Carnell and Kate
were murdered in the Rocky River ReservationJune fourth, twenty nineteen, between five

(03:05:22):
oh four and five thirteen pm.If you know anything, anything at all,
feel free to contact me privately onsocial media and I'm happy to pass
it along to the appropriate authorities.I just want justice for my friend and
his friend, and everyone's families andall the associated friends that go along with

(03:05:46):
Carnell and Kate. They are sorelymissed. Having said that, there's only
one thing left to do. Thatis to quote your Palaceal the honorable Mayor
of an honorable Mention Salinaro No needto trip out. It's time to dip
out, slap the porpoise. Thisone's over. We're out. Be kind

(03:06:07):
to one another, keep your chinup, happy everything until the next episode.
I hope you take my commentary outof this man, because I don't
want to have anything to do withit. What I'm sucking a portion.
I see trees, some green,red rooses too. I see them blue

(03:06:33):
fucking you, and I'm into myself. What I wonderful? I sees sky
so blue and white, the rightblessed day, the dark sagod night,

(03:07:03):
and I think to myself, whata wonderful world. The colors of the
rainbow so pretty in the sky,are als along the faces of people going

(03:07:26):
by. I see friends shaking hands, saying how they're really saying. I.
I hear Bigger's crowd. I watchthem grow. They are like much

(03:07:50):
more then I never knew. AndI think to myself, what I wonderful?
So I make to myself what Iwonderful. Yeah,

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 208: McXal and His Honorable Reviews (Presented by Patreon.com/AnHonorablePod)

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Episode 208: McXal and His Honorable Reviews (Presented by Patreon.com/AnHonorablePod)

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