September 10, 2023 • 41 mins
KMA Sullivan is the author of two poetry collections: Inclined to Riot (forthcoming from Sibling Rivalry Press) and Necessary Fire, winner of the St Lawrence Book Award (Black Lawrence Press, 2015). Her poems and essays have appeared in Boston Review, Southern Humanities Review, diode, The Rumpus, Forklift, Ohio, The Nervous Breakdown, Gertrude, and elsewhere. She has been awarded residencies in creative nonfiction and poetry at Virginia Center for Creative Arts, Vermont Studio Center, and Summer Literary Seminars. KMA is coeditor in chief of Vinyl and the founder and publisher of YesYes Books.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Hello everyone, and welcome to thelady Zoope, I was wrong. Welcome
to the writer's class. Oh,I felt like I said that so well,
one worse bade welcome to the writer'sclass. Yep, yep, I'm
loving my own voice today. That'sthe Nartisism level I'm on. Oh well,
Nona and I normally have a jade, which is funny to say,
(00:22):
because I think most of these thingsI do buy myself and go normally have
a jade on either side. Andif she was here, she would have
stopped that whole welcome to the writer'sclass thing. She would have definitely liked.
No, but anyway, I wrotebooks. Go figure. Yeah,
I'm making it really short for everyonewho's like normally listen to everything else.
(00:42):
I'm it's really short. I gotthree hours asleep. Everything about it,
what I do today is really short, including my patients. There. If
I thought the worse was bad andI thought being gird up was easy,
if only are me a memorial Verse, Foreign Coffee, Widow's Web, and
Widow's Debt. You can find thosebooks wherever you get your audiobooks. And
yes, if you're counting along,that was audio books. But you know,
we have seventeen books because I wantto be bragged thoshes right now.
(01:04):
Seventeen it's kind of cool. Youcan find out the eleven other books at
and I thought Ladies dot com.And since I am running short on patients
and enthusiasm, I'm gonna have todo it like a car salesman because that's
the most fun you're gonna get outof me today. I'm sorry. I'm
normally humorous and adorable, and asyou can tell both from my hair style,
i am not adorable, but I'mgonna pull out humor through a car
(01:25):
salesman thing. So it's you canfind the rest of those eleven books at
www dot and I thought Ladies dotco. Oh that felt good inside the
soul. I feel refreshed, likemy narcissism has is ready to go for
another round. But you're not hereto hear about me. You're here to
hear about our wonderful guests. Wonderfulguests. Would you like to introduce yourself?
(01:47):
Thank you, Manona, thank youso much for asking me to be
on your show. And so Iam Kma Sullivan. And let's see three
things. Well, probably the biggestpart of my time is I'm the founder
and publisher at Yes Yes Books,which is predominantly a poetry press, but
also we've got some wonderful fiction andincreasingly so. And then I'm also a
(02:13):
writer, and I've got a coupleof poetry collections that have been published by
by other presses, Black Lawrence Pressand Sibling Rivalry. And i am a
fiction writer that's newer. And I'mworking on my first novel and it is
a collaborative ghost novel that I'm writingwith one of my sons. And so
(02:37):
that's three things. I think thatis very thing. You were working with
your child. How was that going. It's so wonderful. It's so wonderful.
I hope it's wonderful for him.You know that I'm big his fears.
He's just you know, patting meon the head, Mom, this
is fine. Whatever. No,it's been such an amazing experience and crafting
(03:02):
the story arc and the characters andthe mysteries and gosh, I just have
had so much fun. Now wherewe're in the actual doing the writing.
You know, we've got the outlineand we've got the character development, and
now we're like just just chunking itout. One section at a time,
(03:24):
and so that's slightly less fun.But the finish will be so happy when
the finished product is done, andthat should probably be in the next six
months and so and I'm also excitedto be writing in a different genre too.
I've written poetry for many, manyyears, though I started late.
(03:44):
Actually, poetry was not a thingI did when I was younger. I
didn't start until I was in mymid forties. And and and I love
new things. I love to learnnew things and do new things, and
so so the writing the fiction isis a newer thing, especially ghost like
a ghost thriller type situation. Soyeah, yeah, okay, has I
(04:12):
yes, I am a small narcissist. I'm gonna start by saying I know
that when I write that a littlebit of the poetic verse gets thrown into
the actual works. So has thathelped at all when you've switched over to
fiction, do you find like itkind of has a flow in a rhythm
or are you just like fiction I'min my fiction mindset. That's a great
(04:33):
question. I think one of thethings I love about poetry, writing poetry
and editing poetry reading poetry is theprecision of poetry. You know, you're
boiling things all the way down sothat you get this tremendous emotional heart into
(04:55):
just a handful of words. AndI love that about poetry. And I
would say James and I are similarin that regard that we are interested that
that less is more regarding language,and that we want to So this is
not going to be an eight hundredpage novel, nothing wrong with that,
(05:15):
you know, this is going tobe like two hundred and fifty three hundred
pages and we're gonna just pack itwith story and intrigue and haunting and character
because both of us really love moreconcentrated language. And so in that sense,
it's similar to poetry. Oh.I do love that that we have
(05:39):
an economy of words but still makea nice point and it's oh, it's
interesting. When we talked and Italked, I'm like, oh, so
you're switching over to fiction, andthey're like, yeah, most people are
like the economy of words really hurtsthem. But I'm happy to hear that
you're doing a great job with itand it's making it great. Well,
I love the process and away,yeah, I'm right, Oh my goods.
(06:01):
What was your so that? Imean it has to naturally lead into
the question what was your process forwriting Pope? Which read then, well,
I think part of it was.Honestly, the biggest part was that
I had already lived a lot oflife, and so all that life was
kind of packed down. I mean, my partner and I raised five children,
(06:24):
I had helped my mother die wellif that makes sense, and she
had brain cancer, and you knowthat experience that the love and the grief
and just the life, the lifethat happens was all packed in there.
And so when I did enter anMFA program, which is not for everyone,
(06:46):
it's not needed for most writers,but since I was switching from kind
of full time mom land, andI really needed that because otherwise my children
are all teenagers, and my god, I would have been in their faces
twenty four seven, right because Ibecause the teenagers are generally a disaster,
right, so but see they needto be that, and so I needed
(07:06):
something else to do. So soI entered a writing program and and again
that was in my mid to lateforties, and so I had a lot
of life packed down in there,and so it was simply it was a
matter of getting at it, likepulling it out and and getting it into
(07:29):
language and uh, in a waythat I felt reflected truth in a concentrated
way. And yeah, it justit just happened. My first book came,
I wouldn't say easily, but butmy my thesis was my was my
first collection, which was then pickedup and uh and then whatever. Four
(07:51):
five years later, my my secondcollection happened, which was totally different in
style. And yeah, so Idon't know, I am not I'm not
a I'm not a great revisor.My poetry comes out not fully formed exactly,
but I'm gonna say mostly formed.Mostly. I think a lot of
(08:13):
the work happens in my head andheart before I actually start putting it on
the page, and then I doa little revision. Whereas I admire and
have worked with some poets, Ohmy gosh, they're incredible master revisors,
and I just I'm amazed by thatprocess. I think I would throw my
(08:35):
journal out the door if I wasdoing that kind of revising. I don't
have that kind of patience and sothat's not a strength. But it's just
reality you're saying, like mf AIisn't for everyone. I went to get
a degree in writing after I hada writing career. I was like,
(08:56):
okay, so I'll have like sixbooks O try, right, and then
Momo want to have on my ownand and so like I'm sitting there and
they're like, Okay, we're goingto revise this, and I'm like revise
okay, yeah, okay, I'verevised it, and they're like, we're
gonna revise it again. I'm like, okay, we're gonna revise it.
We're gonna revise it again. No, we're not. No, no,
(09:18):
I know, like you're just thinkingfor it and read it all out.
No, I'm not. No,It's true. I think so. I
think, especially in writing programs,a lot of times there is over revision
that can occur. And actually,in so my program was a three year
(09:39):
program, and by the third yearthe workshops I found a little difficult because
it was the same process. Ohthough, the teachers there were amazing and
I love the students that I workedwith, but the workshops, I felt
that a lot of students in theroom had an agenda, and which is
not what an editor needs to approachsomeone else's work with. You got to
(10:03):
put aside your own agenda, yourown aesthetic. And I found that I
was writing notes on the workshop sheet, like of someone else's poem, and
I would have put notes. Iwould have made some notes in my own
reading the previous night, but duringworkshop I would I would write notes like,
no, we do not know.We do not need to know what
(10:24):
color the sweater was. No,we do not need to know what town
this I mean. So it's it'sas if it felt a little performative.
Sometimes the students were performing editing forthe professor, or they were performing editing
for their own aesthetic agenda. Andthat's actually when I realized that I loved
(10:46):
editing, because because editing was beingin relationship with the poem itself, what
the poem was trying to be,Not what I wanted it to be or
the professor wanted it to be,but what is this little being trying to
be? And so I love thataspect of editing, which I discovered during
(11:07):
the writing program. And that's whatYes, Yes books came out of that
tremendous love of poetry, which againwas pretty new. And then uh,
and then a love of the editingprocess. Wow, okay, I love
how you're saying that, Like whatis that little being trying to be?
(11:28):
It was like making a spark intoa whole four of fire, Like,
that's that's just beautiful. Like whatis the poem trying to be? I
don't think I've ever sat down withthe poem like what is it? What
does it be? Yeah? I'malways like what am I interpreting? But
what does it being? By itself? Or it's on a page? Yeah,
that's amazing. Y Oh, Ifeel very artsy today. Honestly,
(11:54):
you ask anyone, they were like, though the ladies talk about poetry,
No, do they write poetry?Yes? Yeah, I love, but
I love you write so much.Yeah? Did you have six poetry books
and then plus others? Right,you've got six books of poetry, but
then additional books beyond that. Howdo your books? How did they split
(12:16):
out? They? Actually I havethree fictions in there, but I'll do
three fictions in the six. Butwe do have a love in books of
poetry. Amazing, amazing. Iwill definitely be checked them all out years,
just like three years, here wego, any you go? You
(12:39):
went from I was going to askthis question because it was gonna sound so
beautifully and esthetically beautiful on my part. Yes, it was an agenda so
I could sound esthetically beautiful. Youkind of answer the question when I'm asking,
anyway, you have gone from writingand nurturing your own work to nurturing
(13:01):
other people's work. How has thataffected your mind about writing and creativity?
And do you ever like look atsomeone else's work and be like, yeah,
I gotta I gotta have like halfof that for me. That's a
great question. I think that andthis is the case with editors in general,
(13:24):
that we do devote a fair amountof our creative juice to other people's
work. So one of the thingsit's a little bit tricky, and it's
got to be an intentional choice byan editor, is that if what you're
doing is spending a lot of timeeffectively, authentically, respectfully editing someone else's
(13:46):
work, then what that does meanis that you don't have that kind of
juice for your own work. Sothat's just a reality, and it needs
to be an intentional choice. Idon't myself. I don't feel I read
so much incredible poetry, poetry thatI just love that I'm so you know,
(14:09):
admire, I guess I don't everfeel that that work is going to
that I want to pick up elementsfrom that work and bring it into my
own With one exception, when Iread work where the author is completely everything
(14:31):
is at stake and they're not listeningto anyone else. They're not listening to
society or culture or history. Imean they will have read and they are
going to have you know, readand red and red, and honestly,
I don't think you can be areally good writer without a lot of reading,
but where you're not following anyone else'srules. And so an example would
(14:54):
be, for instance, Claudia Rankin. I mean, her work is line
blowing, particularly since how can weeven call it poetry? But we do
because that's what she said it is. But she's making her own set of
rules and then doing this incredibly importantwork, and so I love when I
(15:15):
read CD Wright is another example.Barriman was an example. I mean writers
who basically make their own rules andthen they write poetry within their own rule
set. That is important for meto always remember I don't need to follow
anyone else's rules. So I feellike I need that lesson. I need
(15:39):
to be reminded of that lesson ona pretty regular basis, because we tend
to be rule followers. That's whyhumanity exists as a you know, in
communities. I mean, that's we'rekind of born for that. But when
it comes to art, gosh,we need to expose ourselves and appreciate other
art again and again and again.But when we're creating art, we've got
(16:03):
to try and break free of expectationsoutside ourselves so that we're really creating from
our own center. And so readingpoets and other writers who do that reminds
me of that, and then thatallows me to do a bit better by
my own work. Wow, itreminds me of this this talk that the
(16:30):
former poet Laureate of South Dakota gaveabout reading like a writer. M Wow,
it's making me want to reread afew poems myself. So how did
you start the publishing house Yes YesBooks? And what does Yes Yes Books
mean for you? Let's see it. Well, so I started it in
(16:53):
the third year of my graduate program, and I had already started a literary
magazine which then went for many years, and Philip B. Williams and I
did that together. I founded it, but then within I think the second
or third issue, even Philip wasworking with me. And Philip is an
(17:15):
incredible poet and whose first novel iscoming out soon, and I just love
everything he does. And so theI think I had to figure out what
to do with my love of poetry. It was so intense and new.
It was so I actually when Ientered the MFA program, I actually entered
(17:37):
as a fiction candidate, which makesno sense because I don't have any published
fiction. But the I needed toget into a creative writing program. I
did know that, and they didn'thave a creative nonfiction and that's what my
published work, my previous published work, had been in. And so I
was like, well, okay,I'm going to write some short stories and
I'm going to see if I canget into this creative writing program. And
(18:00):
it happened. But the first poetryworkshop I took first of my lifetime in
that in the MFA program, Iwas like, oh wait a minute,
hang on, no, no,no, this is what I need to
be writing. And so so thelove of poetry is very very new for
me at that point. And Ihad assumed that I would take the degree
and teach because I've done also alot of teaching through my life, and
(18:26):
but I realized pretty early on Iwas I was just too old to put
up with the bs INN in theacademic world. It's ridiculous, ridiculous.
I was not going to waste mytime with that and so and so.
Okay, so what do I dowith the love of poetry? Oh okay,
I think I'll I think I'll starta press. And I was just
(18:48):
gonna do a little do you know, a little one. I mean,
I didn't have any real idea,you know, real set ideas. What's
that quote? And I think it'sfrom Ray Bradberry, but it might be
from somebody else that says, jumpoff the cliff and build your wings on
the way down. That's pretty typicalof how I operate. And thank god
(19:11):
my family loves me. Anyway,So so I just started. I didn't
know anything. I didn't even knowthe terms, like the words, the
vocabulary words that you use when youtalk to a printer, and I just
uh And I knew very few peoplein literature or poetry or anything. But
(19:34):
this is twelve years ago. Facebookwas really fresh and new, you know,
and and a vibrant place at thatpoint and which it is no longer.
And I was able to just getin contact with people and write about
(19:55):
how write them about how much Ilove their work. And and then I
had met some folks, some writersat least online through the literary magazine that
that I that Philip and I weredoing, excuse me, we're doing and
and so I just had to dosomething with the love of poetry. And
(20:15):
that's where the press came from.Okay, yeah, so you're a traditional
press. Let's just make sure Igot that unclear? Sure in that we're
not traditional in that we receive submissions, and we read through submissions and accept,
(20:36):
you know, get back with offersfor publication, and then we pay
for all the costs associated with publishing. And so it's not it's not a
collaborative press, which do exist,and and if and we can't actually take
a book that's already been published,even if it's self published. But I
(20:57):
will tell you this, I'm afan of self application. I mean,
I'm I mean, I'm I'm outthere look reading, looking, and especially
with I think the publishing world needsneeds a real good revamping. And but
prior to that, what's gonna what'shappening? And I and it's wonderful to
(21:17):
see. I think self publication isbecoming bigger and more important and and is
a beautiful road for for writers.So it is a I am. It
is a small press and a traditionalpublishing platform, but I'm a fan of
folks who who walk their work forward. That that of course means, as
(21:42):
you know, it's it adds awhole big job to your job. Uh.
So you're you're your own publicists,You're you're creating. You know,
you're making sure you're up on platformsand so that people recognize you and your
work. And but I love it. I think it's really a good road
(22:03):
for a lot of folks. It'sa great road, especially I feel and
poetry, because I just talked toa literary agent and he was like,
I think there's three publishing houses thatare large that we would consider it to
be large that would take poets.Yeah, being published at ten, I
(22:25):
knew this. Like I was like, oh, I'm gonna be like you
know, at the Big five whenI'm twelve. Yea, And no,
they don't do poetry, right.Most of the poets that I know who
have agents even have both offer botha poetry collection and a novel or something
(22:47):
like that, and so they'll gettheir poetry collection in with the agent.
But what the agent's gonna do ismarket their novel or their short story collection
along with the poetry collection. Andthe issue there is is there's just not
enough readers of poetry. There's justnot enough. There's not enough money for
the big houses to be interested.I just I hate that reality, but
(23:11):
that's what it is. Yeah,I think there are there are readers of
poetry. Oh there are, butthey're not enough of them. We need
more. That's a discussion for anothertime. Well, I would love to
hear your thoughts on that. Ifeel no discussion for another time. Okay,
(23:33):
all right, all right, sowhere can what books? Do you
feel like we really need to,like to sit up and take notice of
that? Yes, yes, bookshas like we just have to you have
to read them. If you're goingto start with anything, it's got to
be these people. Well, Imean, I love all the books we
(23:53):
put out. If if you thinkabout, you know, if you think
about the fact that we'll get athousand submissions in our four different reading periods,
a thousand and twelve hundred submissions ina four in our four different periods,
and we can publish eight. We'rea small press, and I just
(24:15):
wish we could publish double or triplethat, but we just can't. We
don't we don't have the you know, the finances for that. And so
what that means is that every singlebook we publish we really seriously believe in.
We believe in the writer, thework they're doing, and that it
needs to be said. So.So, for instance, there's a book
(24:40):
that just recently came out called CatalogingPain, and that's by an author,
Alison Levins, And it's a lyricmemoir, so it's not strictly speaking poetry,
it's a memoir in verse. Andand that has to do with she's
a mother of three fairly young children, and and she has had a diagnosis
(25:07):
of MS in the last few years, and she is in pain a lot,
and her body is shifting a lotin terms of what it can and
cannot do. And as she iscoming to terms with this diagnosis, she
is still a mom, and she'sstill a partner and a lover, and
in fact, her partner in thetime period this book covers, is also
(25:32):
transitioning. So her partner, herpartner's body is becoming free as her body
is becoming a cage. And that'swhat that book is about. So that's
I mean, to me, it'sjust incredible the way she writes about it
and the experience that she offers,and even those of us who aren't going
(25:53):
to have that exact experience, shewrites in such a way that brings us
in and allows us to see thisworld with her. So that would be
a book that just recently came outfrom me sas books. Another book is
(26:14):
Ugly Music by Dnelli. Antigua isjust a beautiful, gorgeous book. The
language is just is so it's veryeasy to be absorbed, if that makes
sense. I mean, some poetryrequires a lot of work right to get
what's going on, and and Dnelli'swork is very approachable and incredibly meaningful and
(26:41):
resonant. And so that's that's abook I would I would recommend. And
we've got a book that is thatjust came out just a couple weeks ago
called Bone Language by Jamaica Baldwin,and that has a lot to do with
Jamaica's relationship with her mother and withas a cancer survivor, and with racism
(27:11):
throughout her life. And so that'sBone Line. I love them all.
I love them all, Banana,That's all I can say, I I
feel like they all need to existin the world. You know, they
have amazing and beautiful topics, andI mean all these topics sound like they
were just born to be expressed andpoetic course just wow. Okay, So
(27:36):
two questions. One is the nartistquestion you do not have to answer it,
and is of self. And Ijust wanted to know, would you
be interested ed a murder mystery donein poetry? Oh wow, that is
an exciting idea. And of coursewe're getting more more fiction in poetry,
(27:57):
like Elizabeth Asaviado's work, for example. And so I love the general concept,
but I haven't seen a murder mysteryin poetic verse, and no one
really has because we're getting an editedright now. And uh, They're like,
so we're gonna look at a model, and they were like, do
you have a model? I'm likeno, another to I. Well,
(28:18):
and again though, but that's thekind of thing we all we need to
be thinking outside of the box andnot just allow the rules that have been
presented to us to be the rulesthat we follow. No. I mean
all of those rules, almost allrules are made up, right, So
let's not follow them for no reason. And well, so that's a conversation
(28:41):
we'll have to have offline. Andthen my second question question, oh wait,
which is what everyone wants to know. Everyone wants to know this answer,
what do you look for in amanuscript to be like, yes,
this is the book I'm going topublish. Okay, Well I do have
an answer serve for that. Andhonestly, our aesthetic is quite broad.
(29:03):
But there's something that's always the same, which is that I am looking for
a manuscript that will light me onfire. That's what I'm always looking for.
And normally the way that happens isit means that the author has gone
all the way into themselves because that'swhere the unique language shows up. So
(29:26):
I'm never interested in, say,objectifying language or simplistic language. I'm not
interested in mechanics that run the show. A mechanic always has to be in
service of the engine of the heartof the work, fiction or poetry,
and so I'm looking for work thatdemonstrates that the author has everything at stake
(29:49):
and that they have found the uniquelanguage to access what they're trying to write
about. I think that answers itbeautifully, so that my follow up question
to that it is going to belike, what through mistakes? Do you
see that just immediately like, Nope, this person needs more time to learn
their craft before they have put theirmanuscript into the world. Yes, and
(30:14):
actually that's something that I've started tospeak about at conferences because I'm trying.
I would love to help people figureout how to get their submission to the
top of the pile. Right,So, if the pile they're in has
four hundred or five hundred or sixhundred manuscripts, how how do you get
into the top hundred? And honestly, I don't feel it's that difficult to
get into the top hundreds. Socan I give you more than three things
(30:41):
go for it? Yes? Okay, So the obvious one is copy editing.
Please please copy edit your manuscript.Now, I won't reject the manuscript
that because it hasn't been copy edited. But it's important to understand how tired
editors are. We are so tired. We read hundreds of manuscripts and hundreds
and it's all for love, becauseI'll tell you, nobody really cares who
(31:03):
the editors are out there. Nobodycares. You know, we're kind of
invisible, and that's fine. Wedo it because we love the work,
so copy edit your stuff. Also, don't don't get fancy with formatting,
because that actually leaves the impression withthe editor that you're going to be fussy
and you're gonna really really need tocontrol the design. The editor and the
(31:26):
publisher have got to control the design. That's just a thing. That's why
we're here. And that doesn't meanthat the author is not going to contribute
to the ideas about the design.But you don't want to make it look
like you're going to be more morework than you know than the average human.
I pull my earlier author about themurder mystery book. Never mind,
(31:47):
Well, unless the formatting and designis part of the project, which can
happen, can't absolutely get home that'sactually read in the way of the heart.
So if the circulation through the heart, oh no, but that's fine,
that's different. That's that's the formatof the piece, which is different
from I'll get a manuscript that hasa wild font, like, what are
(32:12):
you doing? Just give this?Just give me a readable font. I
just need to be able to readthe work. And no, I'm not
talking about no that's fine, likeshape poetry is beautiful, that's fantastic.
But the shape is serving the poemright. In that example, I would
imagine, yes, no, no, no, that's fantastic. Thank you
for for making that comment, though, because then that allowed me to clarify
(32:37):
what I was talking about. No, it's like some wild font and that's
like what what's happening? I canbarely read this now, you know.
But there's more important stuff actually towatch out for. So one of them
it would be to make sure thatyour language is fresh, make sure that
your language is precise and and andsay what you want to say exactly the
(33:01):
way it needs to be said.And a lot of writers don't do that,
or they'll do it eighty percent atthe time, but then twenty percent
of the time it's a little lessunique, a little less fresh. I
don't mean use this soaurus and endlessly, but just get the exact right word.
(33:22):
And also pay attention, especially ina poetry collection, with how the
poems talk to one another, right, they talk to one another across a
collection a lot of poets, andof course I'm a poet, we get
focused on each individual piece, andwe remember writing each poem, we remember
(33:43):
the experiences that led to the writingof each poem. So we get.
We can get a little bogged downin that as a as a writer,
but when you're presenting a manuscript,back up a little bit and pay attention
to how each of the poems are, how the poems are chatting with one
another. So if you have theword pineapple in a poem and it shows
(34:07):
up thirty pages later in the collection, what you need to know is those
poems are talking to one another.Now, maybe you want that to happen,
but probably you don't. So youso then maybe the pineapple needs to
become a mango so that it canbe its own spot, you know.
And so there's a lot of movementacross the poems in a collection. Yeah,
(34:31):
I love I love, I loveit. And yeah, I'm talking
about me again. I'm sorry,y'all. Yeah, okay, but I
never get to talk about poetry andme. But I feel like this is
really important, especially for a bodyof poetic work too. Also, be
poetry to be the like almost thirdperson, like the third person like he
(34:55):
would write, I'm not I'm thepresent, and fiction poetry that because I
know, like your emotions are inthis and so you're in it. And
then but if you pull yourself outand be like she did. And she
said, like in your head whenyou're writing high and then like how did
she feel? Instead of how didI feel? You'll get a poem that
(35:15):
like the actual audience understands and notjust you fixated on you and your emotions.
And a lot of times because ifthey're all standalone pieces, they're not
actually work. I'm sorry, I'mbeing very preachy. And then no,
I'm kind of very interesting because Italked to a lot of times with poets
and I'm like, oh, youknow, you can turn poetry into a
(35:36):
script and they say what no,And I'm like, Okay, you can
definitely do it, because like inmy head, I write with sometimes thirteen
other ladies sometimes at the Max's thirteenother women and they're trying to hopefully and
my just turn that into a collection, which means that I now write the
pieces that connect all the other pieces. Oh wow, that's a very project.
(36:00):
Then that then does the entire overarchof the poetry collection. So my
pieces help you run through the poetrycollection and they connect the poetry into beweaving.
That is fantastic. Well, thatactually important to know what your collection
wants to say. You have tolisten to them and figure out what it's
(36:20):
saying, and then what they're sayingas a body, and then figure out
what you need to say to makeit apparent. Yeah. Absolutely, No,
that's wonderful, and I would sayconnected in a way. Is this
the idea of like narcissism and poetry. Sometimes that can fuel the poetry frequently,
and that's wonderful. Sometimes it getsin the way of the poetry.
(36:44):
And one place where I think itcan get in the way is when and
when I'm reading submissions. It's prettyeasy for me to see when collections are
written by a writer who doesn't understandthat everyone is broken and everyone is in
(37:07):
pain, that they privilege their ownexperience as if other people's experiences are secondary,
not as interesting, not as meaningful. Now, and I'm not sure
how clearly I can talk about this, but it's you. I think as
a writer, you're not going tohave a mature voice until you are able
(37:34):
to see humanity in a fairly complexway. And so a lot of the
poetry I receive is about personal trauma, and I am happy to read that,
and that's important. But the richestpoetry comes from people, from writers
(37:57):
and this obviously is an opinion whoalso acknowledge that their trauma is not the
only trauma. It's not that theyeven need to say that thing. It's
how they write about their own pain. There's a sense if in writing about
their own pain they are also objectifyingothers or simplifying or making tropes of others,
(38:23):
that's an indicator that they they don'tunderstand that their trauma is in a
landscape of trauma and they don't needto talk about other people's trauma. But
somehow that move to to view humanityas a complex whole who l e right,
(38:47):
you know, whole because it putit one either way there really and
is important in it enriches the writer'swork, and so it weakens a writer's
work in my opinion, when thewriter doesn't understand that while they've got to
(39:08):
go all the way into their experience, it's not in a vacuum. It's
in this complex landscape of humanity wherereally everyone is broken in one for another.
Yeah, I love that. Ibelieve. It was said that as
a poet we are the conscience ofsociety, and in order to be the
(39:30):
conscience of anything, you have tounderstand the thought processes behind it, the
emotions that made the choices, andthe reason we're going forward in a moral
or moral way. That's when yourconscience will step in. So in order
for you to be a good poet, you need to recognize the landscape of
the society that you were in andthen speak on it through yours particular voice.
(39:53):
Yeah, that's my silliness for theday. I love it. I
love it. Well. Can youtell us where we can find more books
of Yes, Yes books, moreabout you on possibly social media or your
website. Yes, so, Yes, Yes Books dot com. That's the
big that's the website, and sothat's got all of our books. And
(40:14):
then we do have Instagram, whichis also yes, Yes Books. And
then Twitter, but Twitter is aboutto leave us and I'm not going to
be sad about that, and soyeah, and then my writing is under
Kma Sullivan, though my fiction withcollaborative with my son will be under the
(40:37):
author name Catherine James and his nameis James. So it's all gonna work
out. This is in the writernames. Do like your pet's name in
your street to make your looks opera, There you go, There you go?
Is this not so much for beinghere Kma from Yes, Yes Books.
(40:58):
I had thoroughly appreciated the time.And I do not know that I
needed to talk about poetry today,but it's did I know, get on
here. I'm like, oh,it's a poet. Okay. Now we're
a strange breed, but you knowthat you know that we are. So
I'm so glad we got to talkabout it today. Thank you so much.
I'm gonna go ahead and wrap usup. I'm will Nona from the
(41:19):
and I thought, ladies, Yes, there's like more than just one lady
in the and I thought, ladies, it's not a scary thought with all
them building with me that I haveanyway, And you can find out everything
that the ladies are up to atwww dot and I thought lady dot com.
When you go to that page,please go down to the bottom of
the page. No longer the middleof the page, but the bottom of
the page, and you can seethe charities that we proudly support. Yes,
(41:42):
so you take a little bit ofyour time out and give them a
little support as well. We thankyou in advance for that. I remember
that wisdom is all around you ifyou're open to finding it and accepting it
so a piece of love you guysfrom well KNOWNA and the Missing Jay.
Oh yeah, thanks for listening.
Hello everyone, and welcome to thelady Zoope, I was wrong. Welcome
to the writer's class. Oh,I felt like I said that so well,
one worse bade welcome to the writer'sclass. Yep, yep, I'm
loving my own voice today. That'sthe Nartisism level I'm on. Oh well,
Nona and I normally have a jade, which is funny to say,
(00:22):
because I think most of these thingsI do buy myself and go normally have
a jade on either side. Andif she was here, she would have
stopped that whole welcome to the writer'sclass thing. She would have definitely liked.
No, but anyway, I wrotebooks. Go figure. Yeah,
I'm making it really short for everyonewho's like normally listen to everything else.
(00:42):
I'm it's really short. I gotthree hours asleep. Everything about it,
what I do today is really short, including my patients. There. If
I thought the worse was bad andI thought being gird up was easy,
if only are me a memorial Verse, Foreign Coffee, Widow's Web, and
Widow's Debt. You can find thosebooks wherever you get your audiobooks. And
yes, if you're counting along,that was audio books. But you know,
we have seventeen books because I wantto be bragged thoshes right now.
(01:04):
Seventeen it's kind of cool. Youcan find out the eleven other books at
and I thought Ladies dot com.And since I am running short on patients
and enthusiasm, I'm gonna have todo it like a car salesman because that's
the most fun you're gonna get outof me today. I'm sorry. I'm
normally humorous and adorable, and asyou can tell both from my hair style,
i am not adorable, but I'mgonna pull out humor through a car
(01:25):
salesman thing. So it's you canfind the rest of those eleven books at
www dot and I thought Ladies dotco. Oh that felt good inside the
soul. I feel refreshed, likemy narcissism has is ready to go for
another round. But you're not hereto hear about me. You're here to
hear about our wonderful guests. Wonderfulguests. Would you like to introduce yourself?
(01:47):
Thank you, Manona, thank youso much for asking me to be
on your show. And so Iam Kma Sullivan. And let's see three
things. Well, probably the biggestpart of my time is I'm the founder
and publisher at Yes Yes Books,which is predominantly a poetry press, but
also we've got some wonderful fiction andincreasingly so. And then I'm also a
(02:13):
writer, and I've got a coupleof poetry collections that have been published by
by other presses, Black Lawrence Pressand Sibling Rivalry. And i am a
fiction writer that's newer. And I'mworking on my first novel and it is
a collaborative ghost novel that I'm writingwith one of my sons. And so
(02:37):
that's three things. I think thatis very thing. You were working with
your child. How was that going. It's so wonderful. It's so wonderful.
I hope it's wonderful for him.You know that I'm big his fears.
He's just you know, patting meon the head, Mom, this
is fine. Whatever. No,it's been such an amazing experience and crafting
(03:02):
the story arc and the characters andthe mysteries and gosh, I just have
had so much fun. Now wherewe're in the actual doing the writing.
You know, we've got the outlineand we've got the character development, and
now we're like just just chunking itout. One section at a time,
(03:24):
and so that's slightly less fun.But the finish will be so happy when
the finished product is done, andthat should probably be in the next six
months and so and I'm also excitedto be writing in a different genre too.
I've written poetry for many, manyyears, though I started late.
(03:44):
Actually, poetry was not a thingI did when I was younger. I
didn't start until I was in mymid forties. And and and I love
new things. I love to learnnew things and do new things, and
so so the writing the fiction isis a newer thing, especially ghost like
a ghost thriller type situation. Soyeah, yeah, okay, has I
(04:12):
yes, I am a small narcissist. I'm gonna start by saying I know
that when I write that a littlebit of the poetic verse gets thrown into
the actual works. So has thathelped at all when you've switched over to
fiction, do you find like itkind of has a flow in a rhythm
or are you just like fiction I'min my fiction mindset. That's a great
(04:33):
question. I think one of thethings I love about poetry, writing poetry
and editing poetry reading poetry is theprecision of poetry. You know, you're
boiling things all the way down sothat you get this tremendous emotional heart into
(04:55):
just a handful of words. AndI love that about poetry. And I
would say James and I are similarin that regard that we are interested that
that less is more regarding language,and that we want to So this is
not going to be an eight hundredpage novel, nothing wrong with that,
(05:15):
you know, this is going tobe like two hundred and fifty three hundred
pages and we're gonna just pack itwith story and intrigue and haunting and character
because both of us really love moreconcentrated language. And so in that sense,
it's similar to poetry. Oh.I do love that that we have
(05:39):
an economy of words but still makea nice point and it's oh, it's
interesting. When we talked and Italked, I'm like, oh, so
you're switching over to fiction, andthey're like, yeah, most people are
like the economy of words really hurtsthem. But I'm happy to hear that
you're doing a great job with itand it's making it great. Well,
I love the process and away,yeah, I'm right, Oh my goods.
(06:01):
What was your so that? Imean it has to naturally lead into
the question what was your process forwriting Pope? Which read then, well,
I think part of it was.Honestly, the biggest part was that
I had already lived a lot oflife, and so all that life was
kind of packed down. I mean, my partner and I raised five children,
(06:24):
I had helped my mother die wellif that makes sense, and she
had brain cancer, and you knowthat experience that the love and the grief
and just the life, the lifethat happens was all packed in there.
And so when I did enter anMFA program, which is not for everyone,
(06:46):
it's not needed for most writers,but since I was switching from kind
of full time mom land, andI really needed that because otherwise my children
are all teenagers, and my god, I would have been in their faces
twenty four seven, right because Ibecause the teenagers are generally a disaster,
right, so but see they needto be that, and so I needed
(07:06):
something else to do. So soI entered a writing program and and again
that was in my mid to lateforties, and so I had a lot
of life packed down in there,and so it was simply it was a
matter of getting at it, likepulling it out and and getting it into
(07:29):
language and uh, in a waythat I felt reflected truth in a concentrated
way. And yeah, it justit just happened. My first book came,
I wouldn't say easily, but butmy my thesis was my was my
first collection, which was then pickedup and uh and then whatever. Four
(07:51):
five years later, my my secondcollection happened, which was totally different in
style. And yeah, so Idon't know, I am not I'm not
a I'm not a great revisor.My poetry comes out not fully formed exactly,
but I'm gonna say mostly formed.Mostly. I think a lot of
(08:13):
the work happens in my head andheart before I actually start putting it on
the page, and then I doa little revision. Whereas I admire and
have worked with some poets, Ohmy gosh, they're incredible master revisors,
and I just I'm amazed by thatprocess. I think I would throw my
(08:35):
journal out the door if I wasdoing that kind of revising. I don't
have that kind of patience and sothat's not a strength. But it's just
reality you're saying, like mf AIisn't for everyone. I went to get
a degree in writing after I hada writing career. I was like,
(08:56):
okay, so I'll have like sixbooks O try, right, and then
Momo want to have on my ownand and so like I'm sitting there and
they're like, Okay, we're goingto revise this, and I'm like revise
okay, yeah, okay, I'verevised it, and they're like, we're
gonna revise it again. I'm like, okay, we're gonna revise it.
We're gonna revise it again. No, we're not. No, no,
(09:18):
I know, like you're just thinkingfor it and read it all out.
No, I'm not. No,It's true. I think so. I
think, especially in writing programs,a lot of times there is over revision
that can occur. And actually,in so my program was a three year
(09:39):
program, and by the third yearthe workshops I found a little difficult because
it was the same process. Ohthough, the teachers there were amazing and
I love the students that I workedwith, but the workshops, I felt
that a lot of students in theroom had an agenda, and which is
not what an editor needs to approachsomeone else's work with. You got to
(10:03):
put aside your own agenda, yourown aesthetic. And I found that I
was writing notes on the workshop sheet, like of someone else's poem, and
I would have put notes. Iwould have made some notes in my own
reading the previous night, but duringworkshop I would I would write notes like,
no, we do not know.We do not need to know what
(10:24):
color the sweater was. No,we do not need to know what town
this I mean. So it's it'sas if it felt a little performative.
Sometimes the students were performing editing forthe professor, or they were performing editing
for their own aesthetic agenda. Andthat's actually when I realized that I loved
(10:46):
editing, because because editing was beingin relationship with the poem itself, what
the poem was trying to be,Not what I wanted it to be or
the professor wanted it to be,but what is this little being trying to
be? And so I love thataspect of editing, which I discovered during
(11:07):
the writing program. And that's whatYes, Yes books came out of that
tremendous love of poetry, which againwas pretty new. And then uh,
and then a love of the editingprocess. Wow, okay, I love
how you're saying that, Like whatis that little being trying to be?
(11:28):
It was like making a spark intoa whole four of fire, Like,
that's that's just beautiful. Like whatis the poem trying to be? I
don't think I've ever sat down withthe poem like what is it? What
does it be? Yeah? I'malways like what am I interpreting? But
what does it being? By itself? Or it's on a page? Yeah,
that's amazing. Y Oh, Ifeel very artsy today. Honestly,
(11:54):
you ask anyone, they were like, though the ladies talk about poetry,
No, do they write poetry?Yes? Yeah, I love, but
I love you write so much.Yeah? Did you have six poetry books
and then plus others? Right,you've got six books of poetry, but
then additional books beyond that. Howdo your books? How did they split
(12:16):
out? They? Actually I havethree fictions in there, but I'll do
three fictions in the six. Butwe do have a love in books of
poetry. Amazing, amazing. Iwill definitely be checked them all out years,
just like three years, here wego, any you go? You
(12:39):
went from I was going to askthis question because it was gonna sound so
beautifully and esthetically beautiful on my part. Yes, it was an agenda so
I could sound esthetically beautiful. Youkind of answer the question when I'm asking,
anyway, you have gone from writingand nurturing your own work to nurturing
(13:01):
other people's work. How has thataffected your mind about writing and creativity?
And do you ever like look atsomeone else's work and be like, yeah,
I gotta I gotta have like halfof that for me. That's a
great question. I think that andthis is the case with editors in general,
(13:24):
that we do devote a fair amountof our creative juice to other people's
work. So one of the thingsit's a little bit tricky, and it's
got to be an intentional choice byan editor, is that if what you're
doing is spending a lot of timeeffectively, authentically, respectfully editing someone else's
(13:46):
work, then what that does meanis that you don't have that kind of
juice for your own work. Sothat's just a reality, and it needs
to be an intentional choice. Idon't myself. I don't feel I read
so much incredible poetry, poetry thatI just love that I'm so you know,
(14:09):
admire, I guess I don't everfeel that that work is going to
that I want to pick up elementsfrom that work and bring it into my
own With one exception, when Iread work where the author is completely everything
(14:31):
is at stake and they're not listeningto anyone else. They're not listening to
society or culture or history. Imean they will have read and they are
going to have you know, readand red and red, and honestly,
I don't think you can be areally good writer without a lot of reading,
but where you're not following anyone else'srules. And so an example would
(14:54):
be, for instance, Claudia Rankin. I mean, her work is line
blowing, particularly since how can weeven call it poetry? But we do
because that's what she said it is. But she's making her own set of
rules and then doing this incredibly importantwork, and so I love when I
(15:15):
read CD Wright is another example.Barriman was an example. I mean writers
who basically make their own rules andthen they write poetry within their own rule
set. That is important for meto always remember I don't need to follow
anyone else's rules. So I feellike I need that lesson. I need
(15:39):
to be reminded of that lesson ona pretty regular basis, because we tend
to be rule followers. That's whyhumanity exists as a you know, in
communities. I mean, that's we'rekind of born for that. But when
it comes to art, gosh,we need to expose ourselves and appreciate other
art again and again and again.But when we're creating art, we've got
(16:03):
to try and break free of expectationsoutside ourselves so that we're really creating from
our own center. And so readingpoets and other writers who do that reminds
me of that, and then thatallows me to do a bit better by
my own work. Wow, itreminds me of this this talk that the
(16:30):
former poet Laureate of South Dakota gaveabout reading like a writer. M Wow,
it's making me want to reread afew poems myself. So how did
you start the publishing house Yes YesBooks? And what does Yes Yes Books
mean for you? Let's see it. Well, so I started it in
(16:53):
the third year of my graduate program, and I had already started a literary
magazine which then went for many years, and Philip B. Williams and I
did that together. I founded it, but then within I think the second
or third issue, even Philip wasworking with me. And Philip is an
(17:15):
incredible poet and whose first novel iscoming out soon, and I just love
everything he does. And so theI think I had to figure out what
to do with my love of poetry. It was so intense and new.
It was so I actually when Ientered the MFA program, I actually entered
(17:37):
as a fiction candidate, which makesno sense because I don't have any published
fiction. But the I needed toget into a creative writing program. I
did know that, and they didn'thave a creative nonfiction and that's what my
published work, my previous published work, had been in. And so I
was like, well, okay,I'm going to write some short stories and
I'm going to see if I canget into this creative writing program. And
(18:00):
it happened. But the first poetryworkshop I took first of my lifetime in
that in the MFA program, Iwas like, oh wait a minute,
hang on, no, no,no, this is what I need to
be writing. And so so thelove of poetry is very very new for
me at that point. And Ihad assumed that I would take the degree
and teach because I've done also alot of teaching through my life, and
(18:26):
but I realized pretty early on Iwas I was just too old to put
up with the bs INN in theacademic world. It's ridiculous, ridiculous.
I was not going to waste mytime with that and so and so.
Okay, so what do I dowith the love of poetry? Oh okay,
I think I'll I think I'll starta press. And I was just
(18:48):
gonna do a little do you know, a little one. I mean,
I didn't have any real idea,you know, real set ideas. What's
that quote? And I think it'sfrom Ray Bradberry, but it might be
from somebody else that says, jumpoff the cliff and build your wings on
the way down. That's pretty typicalof how I operate. And thank god
(19:11):
my family loves me. Anyway,So so I just started. I didn't
know anything. I didn't even knowthe terms, like the words, the
vocabulary words that you use when youtalk to a printer, and I just
uh And I knew very few peoplein literature or poetry or anything. But
(19:34):
this is twelve years ago. Facebookwas really fresh and new, you know,
and and a vibrant place at thatpoint and which it is no longer.
And I was able to just getin contact with people and write about
(19:55):
how write them about how much Ilove their work. And and then I
had met some folks, some writersat least online through the literary magazine that
that I that Philip and I weredoing, excuse me, we're doing and
and so I just had to dosomething with the love of poetry. And
(20:15):
that's where the press came from.Okay, yeah, so you're a traditional
press. Let's just make sure Igot that unclear? Sure in that we're
not traditional in that we receive submissions, and we read through submissions and accept,
(20:36):
you know, get back with offersfor publication, and then we pay
for all the costs associated with publishing. And so it's not it's not a
collaborative press, which do exist,and and if and we can't actually take
a book that's already been published,even if it's self published. But I
(20:57):
will tell you this, I'm afan of self application. I mean,
I'm I mean, I'm I'm outthere look reading, looking, and especially
with I think the publishing world needsneeds a real good revamping. And but
prior to that, what's gonna what'shappening? And I and it's wonderful to
(21:17):
see. I think self publication isbecoming bigger and more important and and is
a beautiful road for for writers.So it is a I am. It
is a small press and a traditionalpublishing platform, but I'm a fan of
folks who who walk their work forward. That that of course means, as
(21:42):
you know, it's it adds awhole big job to your job. Uh.
So you're you're your own publicists,You're you're creating. You know,
you're making sure you're up on platformsand so that people recognize you and your
work. And but I love it. I think it's really a good road
(22:03):
for a lot of folks. It'sa great road, especially I feel and
poetry, because I just talked toa literary agent and he was like,
I think there's three publishing houses thatare large that we would consider it to
be large that would take poets.Yeah, being published at ten, I
(22:25):
knew this. Like I was like, oh, I'm gonna be like you
know, at the Big five whenI'm twelve. Yea, And no,
they don't do poetry, right.Most of the poets that I know who
have agents even have both offer botha poetry collection and a novel or something
(22:47):
like that, and so they'll gettheir poetry collection in with the agent.
But what the agent's gonna do ismarket their novel or their short story collection
along with the poetry collection. Andthe issue there is is there's just not
enough readers of poetry. There's justnot enough. There's not enough money for
the big houses to be interested.I just I hate that reality, but
(23:11):
that's what it is. Yeah,I think there are there are readers of
poetry. Oh there are, butthey're not enough of them. We need
more. That's a discussion for anothertime. Well, I would love to
hear your thoughts on that. Ifeel no discussion for another time. Okay,
(23:33):
all right, all right, sowhere can what books? Do you
feel like we really need to,like to sit up and take notice of
that? Yes, yes, bookshas like we just have to you have
to read them. If you're goingto start with anything, it's got to
be these people. Well, Imean, I love all the books we
(23:53):
put out. If if you thinkabout, you know, if you think
about the fact that we'll get athousand submissions in our four different reading periods,
a thousand and twelve hundred submissions ina four in our four different periods,
and we can publish eight. We'rea small press, and I just
(24:15):
wish we could publish double or triplethat, but we just can't. We
don't we don't have the you know, the finances for that. And so
what that means is that every singlebook we publish we really seriously believe in.
We believe in the writer, thework they're doing, and that it
needs to be said. So.So, for instance, there's a book
(24:40):
that just recently came out called CatalogingPain, and that's by an author,
Alison Levins, And it's a lyricmemoir, so it's not strictly speaking poetry,
it's a memoir in verse. Andand that has to do with she's
a mother of three fairly young children, and and she has had a diagnosis
(25:07):
of MS in the last few years, and she is in pain a lot,
and her body is shifting a lotin terms of what it can and
cannot do. And as she iscoming to terms with this diagnosis, she
is still a mom, and she'sstill a partner and a lover, and
in fact, her partner in thetime period this book covers, is also
(25:32):
transitioning. So her partner, herpartner's body is becoming free as her body
is becoming a cage. And that'swhat that book is about. So that's
I mean, to me, it'sjust incredible the way she writes about it
and the experience that she offers,and even those of us who aren't going
(25:53):
to have that exact experience, shewrites in such a way that brings us
in and allows us to see thisworld with her. So that would be
a book that just recently came outfrom me sas books. Another book is
(26:14):
Ugly Music by Dnelli. Antigua isjust a beautiful, gorgeous book. The
language is just is so it's veryeasy to be absorbed, if that makes
sense. I mean, some poetryrequires a lot of work right to get
what's going on, and and Dnelli'swork is very approachable and incredibly meaningful and
(26:41):
resonant. And so that's that's abook I would I would recommend. And
we've got a book that is thatjust came out just a couple weeks ago
called Bone Language by Jamaica Baldwin,and that has a lot to do with
Jamaica's relationship with her mother and withas a cancer survivor, and with racism
(27:11):
throughout her life. And so that'sBone Line. I love them all.
I love them all, Banana,That's all I can say, I I
feel like they all need to existin the world. You know, they
have amazing and beautiful topics, andI mean all these topics sound like they
were just born to be expressed andpoetic course just wow. Okay, So
(27:36):
two questions. One is the nartistquestion you do not have to answer it,
and is of self. And Ijust wanted to know, would you
be interested ed a murder mystery donein poetry? Oh wow, that is
an exciting idea. And of coursewe're getting more more fiction in poetry,
(27:57):
like Elizabeth Asaviado's work, for example. And so I love the general concept,
but I haven't seen a murder mysteryin poetic verse, and no one
really has because we're getting an editedright now. And uh, They're like,
so we're gonna look at a model, and they were like, do
you have a model? I'm likeno, another to I. Well,
(28:18):
and again though, but that's thekind of thing we all we need to
be thinking outside of the box andnot just allow the rules that have been
presented to us to be the rulesthat we follow. No. I mean
all of those rules, almost allrules are made up, right, So
let's not follow them for no reason. And well, so that's a conversation
(28:41):
we'll have to have offline. Andthen my second question question, oh wait,
which is what everyone wants to know. Everyone wants to know this answer,
what do you look for in amanuscript to be like, yes,
this is the book I'm going topublish. Okay, Well I do have
an answer serve for that. Andhonestly, our aesthetic is quite broad.
(29:03):
But there's something that's always the same, which is that I am looking for
a manuscript that will light me onfire. That's what I'm always looking for.
And normally the way that happens isit means that the author has gone
all the way into themselves because that'swhere the unique language shows up. So
(29:26):
I'm never interested in, say,objectifying language or simplistic language. I'm not
interested in mechanics that run the show. A mechanic always has to be in
service of the engine of the heartof the work, fiction or poetry,
and so I'm looking for work thatdemonstrates that the author has everything at stake
(29:49):
and that they have found the uniquelanguage to access what they're trying to write
about. I think that answers itbeautifully, so that my follow up question
to that it is going to belike, what through mistakes? Do you
see that just immediately like, Nope, this person needs more time to learn
their craft before they have put theirmanuscript into the world. Yes, and
(30:14):
actually that's something that I've started tospeak about at conferences because I'm trying.
I would love to help people figureout how to get their submission to the
top of the pile. Right,So, if the pile they're in has
four hundred or five hundred or sixhundred manuscripts, how how do you get
into the top hundred? And honestly, I don't feel it's that difficult to
get into the top hundreds. Socan I give you more than three things
(30:41):
go for it? Yes? Okay, So the obvious one is copy editing.
Please please copy edit your manuscript.Now, I won't reject the manuscript
that because it hasn't been copy edited. But it's important to understand how tired
editors are. We are so tired. We read hundreds of manuscripts and hundreds
and it's all for love, becauseI'll tell you, nobody really cares who
(31:03):
the editors are out there. Nobodycares. You know, we're kind of
invisible, and that's fine. Wedo it because we love the work,
so copy edit your stuff. Also, don't don't get fancy with formatting,
because that actually leaves the impression withthe editor that you're going to be fussy
and you're gonna really really need tocontrol the design. The editor and the
(31:26):
publisher have got to control the design. That's just a thing. That's why
we're here. And that doesn't meanthat the author is not going to contribute
to the ideas about the design.But you don't want to make it look
like you're going to be more morework than you know than the average human.
I pull my earlier author about themurder mystery book. Never mind,
(31:47):
Well, unless the formatting and designis part of the project, which can
happen, can't absolutely get home that'sactually read in the way of the heart.
So if the circulation through the heart, oh no, but that's fine,
that's different. That's that's the formatof the piece, which is different
from I'll get a manuscript that hasa wild font, like, what are
(32:12):
you doing? Just give this?Just give me a readable font. I
just need to be able to readthe work. And no, I'm not
talking about no that's fine, likeshape poetry is beautiful, that's fantastic.
But the shape is serving the poemright. In that example, I would
imagine, yes, no, no, no, that's fantastic. Thank you
for for making that comment, though, because then that allowed me to clarify
(32:37):
what I was talking about. No, it's like some wild font and that's
like what what's happening? I canbarely read this now, you know.
But there's more important stuff actually towatch out for. So one of them
it would be to make sure thatyour language is fresh, make sure that
your language is precise and and andsay what you want to say exactly the
(33:01):
way it needs to be said.And a lot of writers don't do that,
or they'll do it eighty percent atthe time, but then twenty percent
of the time it's a little lessunique, a little less fresh. I
don't mean use this soaurus and endlessly, but just get the exact right word.
(33:22):
And also pay attention, especially ina poetry collection, with how the
poems talk to one another, right, they talk to one another across a
collection a lot of poets, andof course I'm a poet, we get
focused on each individual piece, andwe remember writing each poem, we remember
(33:43):
the experiences that led to the writingof each poem. So we get.
We can get a little bogged downin that as a as a writer,
but when you're presenting a manuscript,back up a little bit and pay attention
to how each of the poems are, how the poems are chatting with one
another. So if you have theword pineapple in a poem and it shows
(34:07):
up thirty pages later in the collection, what you need to know is those
poems are talking to one another.Now, maybe you want that to happen,
but probably you don't. So youso then maybe the pineapple needs to
become a mango so that it canbe its own spot, you know.
And so there's a lot of movementacross the poems in a collection. Yeah,
(34:31):
I love I love, I loveit. And yeah, I'm talking
about me again. I'm sorry,y'all. Yeah, okay, but I
never get to talk about poetry andme. But I feel like this is
really important, especially for a bodyof poetic work too. Also, be
poetry to be the like almost thirdperson, like the third person like he
(34:55):
would write, I'm not I'm thepresent, and fiction poetry that because I
know, like your emotions are inthis and so you're in it. And
then but if you pull yourself outand be like she did. And she
said, like in your head whenyou're writing high and then like how did
she feel? Instead of how didI feel? You'll get a poem that
(35:15):
like the actual audience understands and notjust you fixated on you and your emotions.
And a lot of times because ifthey're all standalone pieces, they're not
actually work. I'm sorry, I'mbeing very preachy. And then no,
I'm kind of very interesting because Italked to a lot of times with poets
and I'm like, oh, youknow, you can turn poetry into a
(35:36):
script and they say what no,And I'm like, Okay, you can
definitely do it, because like inmy head, I write with sometimes thirteen
other ladies sometimes at the Max's thirteenother women and they're trying to hopefully and
my just turn that into a collection, which means that I now write the
pieces that connect all the other pieces. Oh wow, that's a very project.
(36:00):
Then that then does the entire overarchof the poetry collection. So my
pieces help you run through the poetrycollection and they connect the poetry into beweaving.
That is fantastic. Well, thatactually important to know what your collection
wants to say. You have tolisten to them and figure out what it's
(36:20):
saying, and then what they're sayingas a body, and then figure out
what you need to say to makeit apparent. Yeah. Absolutely, No,
that's wonderful, and I would sayconnected in a way. Is this
the idea of like narcissism and poetry. Sometimes that can fuel the poetry frequently,
and that's wonderful. Sometimes it getsin the way of the poetry.
(36:44):
And one place where I think itcan get in the way is when and
when I'm reading submissions. It's prettyeasy for me to see when collections are
written by a writer who doesn't understandthat everyone is broken and everyone is in
(37:07):
pain, that they privilege their ownexperience as if other people's experiences are secondary,
not as interesting, not as meaningful. Now, and I'm not sure
how clearly I can talk about this, but it's you. I think as
a writer, you're not going tohave a mature voice until you are able
(37:34):
to see humanity in a fairly complexway. And so a lot of the
poetry I receive is about personal trauma, and I am happy to read that,
and that's important. But the richestpoetry comes from people, from writers
(37:57):
and this obviously is an opinion whoalso acknowledge that their trauma is not the
only trauma. It's not that theyeven need to say that thing. It's
how they write about their own pain. There's a sense if in writing about
their own pain they are also objectifyingothers or simplifying or making tropes of others,
(38:23):
that's an indicator that they they don'tunderstand that their trauma is in a
landscape of trauma and they don't needto talk about other people's trauma. But
somehow that move to to view humanityas a complex whole who l e right,
(38:47):
you know, whole because it putit one either way there really and
is important in it enriches the writer'swork, and so it weakens a writer's
work in my opinion, when thewriter doesn't understand that while they've got to
(39:08):
go all the way into their experience, it's not in a vacuum. It's
in this complex landscape of humanity wherereally everyone is broken in one for another.
Yeah, I love that. Ibelieve. It was said that as
a poet we are the conscience ofsociety, and in order to be the
(39:30):
conscience of anything, you have tounderstand the thought processes behind it, the
emotions that made the choices, andthe reason we're going forward in a moral
or moral way. That's when yourconscience will step in. So in order
for you to be a good poet, you need to recognize the landscape of
the society that you were in andthen speak on it through yours particular voice.
(39:53):
Yeah, that's my silliness for theday. I love it. I
love it. Well. Can youtell us where we can find more books
of Yes, Yes books, moreabout you on possibly social media or your
website. Yes, so, Yes, Yes Books dot com. That's the
big that's the website, and sothat's got all of our books. And
(40:14):
then we do have Instagram, whichis also yes, Yes Books. And
then Twitter, but Twitter is aboutto leave us and I'm not going to
be sad about that, and soyeah, and then my writing is under
Kma Sullivan, though my fiction withcollaborative with my son will be under the
(40:37):
author name Catherine James and his nameis James. So it's all gonna work
out. This is in the writernames. Do like your pet's name in
your street to make your looks opera, There you go, There you go?
Is this not so much for beinghere Kma from Yes, Yes Books.
(40:58):
I had thoroughly appreciated the time.And I do not know that I
needed to talk about poetry today,but it's did I know, get on
here. I'm like, oh,it's a poet. Okay. Now we're
a strange breed, but you knowthat you know that we are. So
I'm so glad we got to talkabout it today. Thank you so much.
I'm gonna go ahead and wrap usup. I'm will Nona from the
(41:19):
and I thought, ladies, Yes, there's like more than just one lady
in the and I thought, ladies, it's not a scary thought with all
them building with me that I haveanyway, And you can find out everything
that the ladies are up to atwww dot and I thought lady dot com.
When you go to that page,please go down to the bottom of
the page. No longer the middleof the page, but the bottom of
the page, and you can seethe charities that we proudly support. Yes,
(41:42):
so you take a little bit ofyour time out and give them a
little support as well. We thankyou in advance for that. I remember
that wisdom is all around you ifyou're open to finding it and accepting it
so a piece of love you guysfrom well KNOWNA and the Missing Jay.
Oh yeah, thanks for listening.
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