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August 6, 2025 19 mins
From 1941 to 1953, director John Huston and actor Humphrey Bogart made one classic film after another, from The Maltese Falcon to The African Queen. Here is the story of their close but combative friendship that produced some of the best movies ever made.Every time they made a movie together, they made a classic-or so it seemed for star Humphrey Bogart and writer/director John Huston. Their six collaborations from 1941 and 1953 include many of the "golden age" hits from Hollywood's fabled film legacy: The Maltese Falcon, Across the Pacific, The Treasure of the Sierra Madre, Key Largo, The African Queen, and Beat the Devil.At the same time, both men led fiercely separate lives-except when they were making pictures together. Sometimes they agreed and sometimes they argued, always keeping their eyes on the results. What did each man bring to the collaboration, and how did their six films together reflect their disparate personalities? Their friendship was as dramatic as any of their movies. It survived nine marriages, a world war, the blacklist, leeches, alcohol, and Jack L. Warner. Here is the story of these two legendary talents, their films, their lives, their foes, and their remarkable devotion to each other.


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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello again, Hello, good to talk to you live.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
Oh my goodness sake, dude. Yeah, I mean, I mean,
you know, when we do it on social media, it's
pretty cool. But I don't get to hear that voice
of yours because there's so much compassion and passion inside
those vocal cords.

Speaker 1 (00:12):
Well, look who's talking. You've got the voice for the ages.
I've been listening to your stuff here and there. Those
are wonderful little pieces that you do. They're very spiritual
and also very concise, well written. You don't add libum.
Do you actually write your pieces? Side I get on you.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
I do write them, I you know, and I I
was wondering, and I always have wonder do people know
that it's written down? Because I mean I have to.
It's my It's one of those things that I learned
in my very early days of radio. Write it down,
then put some stuff into it.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
Well they shouldn't know it's written down, But if you
can make it sound spontaneous, that's the whole trick. Of course,
that's what you do for a living.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
So well you do it in your own writing. When
you sit there and you're reading Bogart and Houston, it
sounds like you're just having a conversation with me. That
in itself means that you've got us in your mind
while you're writing.

Speaker 1 (00:58):
Well, I started in radio, and I warned to write
in a linear style, so that you know, when you're
reading a book, if it's complicated, you your eyes go
back if you miss something at the beginning of the paragraph.
You can't do that if you're listening in real time.
So with the speech writing I do for various charities,
and also when I'm doing the books that I write,
because I know that I'm going to be recording the
audio books, I tried to make them linear so that
people haven't got to rewind the tape.

Speaker 2 (01:20):
So clever you do it too, you know, it's what
you do. So now, what drew you to the story
of Bogart and John Houston? Because this is one of
those things where I guess I just naturally assumed it
was a one two three thing, but no, this actually
stretched out for a long period of time.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
I wrote Bogart or in Houston because I had heard
all the stories about Boguard, and I'd heard all these
stories about Houston, and I wondered, why not put them
together in one place? And try to find out what
chemistry existed between them that led them to make these
six great films like The African Queen in Maltese Falcon
and Treasured Sierra Madre. You know, we're talking about a critical,
massive talent here, and I think I kind of discovered

(02:02):
what the relationship was between them. You know, they weren't
hanging around together all the time. Bogart was more at
home in a saloon and Houston was more at home
everywhere else in the world. And yet when they made
the movies, they came together and had a total meetium.
In the minds. Bogart was the biggest star in Hollywood
at the time, the highest paid star, and Houston knew

(02:23):
that if he had Bogart in a film, he could
get the money to make it. At the same time,
Bogart knew that Houston was the best director he'd ever
worked with. And so they both shown when they could
make a film together. And the only way it worked
out with all their schedules was to make these six
films that I have in the book.

Speaker 2 (02:38):
Can you imagine these movies not participating with fans the
way that it did, because I mean, even today when
I find one of them on TV. I will stop
and watch and I'm just so fascinated with that on
how powerful a movie can be years after its release.

Speaker 1 (02:55):
They had talent. When you sit and watch The Maltese Falcon,
which every time it's on television, you know haven help
is if it's on TCM, you're going to go through
the room and you'll sit on the couch and you
won't leave for two hours. That's the kind of compulsive
movie watching that they used to do. Hollywood did that
all the time because audiences understood movies, they shared cultural references,
and they enjoyed watching it. But The Maltese Falcon, which

(03:18):
was the first time that Houston and Boguart worked together
and the first film that Houston ever made, changed everything
for them. It made Bogart a big star. It got
him out of playing gangsters, so he started playing private
detectives and other heroes. And of course Houston had made
him the christ on the Warner Brothers lot because he
brought the film in early and an under budget and

(03:39):
it made a fortune. So it was a fortuitous moment
for everybody. And I think you feel something special when
you watch The Maltese Falcon, and that's what I tried
to capture in Bogart in Houston.

Speaker 2 (03:49):
See this goes great with what Fathom Events is doing
because Fathom Events is bringing these movies back to the
big screen. And so your book is something that I
want movie fans to go and get because when you
do have the multi falcon up on that big screen,
you're going to know about this relationship and not just
hit Google and get yet some sort of bite.

Speaker 1 (04:07):
It's an experience. Yes, watching these movies is really and
you understand, the studios in those days made fifty films
a year, and so if one of them lost money,
there'd be forty nine others that might bail it out.
In this case, they were able to make this film
because it didn't cost that much, and Jack Warner said, okay,
go go and make the movie to the best you can.
And it turned out to be a very good decision

(04:27):
on everybody's part. But they could take chances then because
movies cost a million or two, not a one hundred
million or two like they do today, and the advertising
costs were far less because they had their own change
of theaters to put them in. They didn't have to
go buying a gross on television or cable or wherever.
It was very different then, and the movie stars were
different too.

Speaker 2 (04:46):
Can you imagine, though, if John Houston had the money
to make a movie that if they get today, and
then you have Humphrey Bogart's star in that movie. I
just think it would be just even more powerful than
what's out there in theaters now.

Speaker 1 (04:58):
I kind of wonder. I think it's point in his
career Houston decided he would just do it for the money.
I mean, he directed Annie. Can you imagine he told
his son Danny, I covered a picture for Danny, who
was now an actor, but he was a director then,
So why on earth did you make Annie? And Houston,
who was doing it as a favorite of producer Ray Stark,
said they wanted bad. It will cost them more, but

(05:21):
we can make it bad, and he certainly did.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
But you know, you know what's really interesting is that
we all have stories of each one of these men individually,
but you're taking both of their stories and making it
one team, which which when I first got it, it
was like, are you kidding me? I never even thought
of them. They really didn't get along, but they did.

Speaker 1 (05:42):
Yeah, it was a kind of mutually exploitive relationship. As
I said, Bogart was the key to Houston getting finances,
and Houston was the key to Bogart giving great performances.
I mean, they weren't enemies, they just didn't have that
much in common, and they would hang around. Bogart was
born to high society, you know. His mother was Maud Humphrey,
and illustrator for baby food posters in New York. And

(06:05):
Houston was the son of a Mountebank actor, Walter Houston.
Where they were running out of town if they're being
chased by the sheriff, and together these two people found
each other and they had a mutual interest in acting
and in film, but also in taking the mickey out
of other people who were too pompous, which is why
I guess they both loved poking holes into Jack Warner's facade.
And yet they got along and they had taste. They

(06:28):
were big movie stars, Okay, even if Houston wasn't acting,
they were big movie stars. And if you're talking about
somebody who's a movie star, stars are different.

Speaker 2 (06:37):
Do you ever find yourself wondering if today has a
real movie star, like like somebody like Humphrey Boguard, Because
in reality, in my heart he was seven feet tall.
I just know it in my heart. He was big.

Speaker 1 (06:49):
Years ago when he made the movie Risky Business. I
got to spend about half a day with Tom Cruise,
who was just Tom Cruise then he wasn't Tom Cruise,
and you could tell there was something special about him.
His focus, his listening to you and answering the question,
his smile, it was all genuine. Yeah, some people are different,

(07:10):
and Cruise is won. The very first movie star I
ever worked with when I was doing publicity was Charlton Heston,
And when Charlton Heston entered the room, you almost felt
a wave of pressure pushing you back against the wall.
Not just because he was famous, but some people are different.
Politicians wish they had that characteristic movie stars.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
Do you bring up Tom Cruise? And right away I
went to Taps. I saw Tom Cruise for the first
time in Taps and thought, my god, this guy is
He's got something. I can't explain it, but I knew
that from that moment forward, I would watch every one
of his movies.

Speaker 1 (07:47):
He's special. I mean, I met him a couple of
other times since then. I'm press chunkers and things. Think
about Tom Cruise, whatever sort of guff he takes for
his beliefs. When Tom Cruise decides to make a movie,
a thousand people get jobs. There's nothing wrong with Tom
Cruise in my.

Speaker 2 (08:01):
Book, Please do not move. There's more with that Siegeloff
coming up next. Hey, thanks for coming back to my
conversation with Matt Siegeloff. The name of the book, Bogart
and Houston. I love this quote that you say you
enjoyed writing this book, which is titled Bogart and Houston
because it gave you the opportunity to rewatch the movies.

(08:21):
That is such my lifestyle.

Speaker 1 (08:23):
Dude, that's true. Nobody's mother comes in and says, do
your homework. Yeah right, The book was my homework and
I enjoyed it. Wow.

Speaker 2 (08:31):
So to spend time with both Humphrey Bogart and John Houston,
I mean, because I mean, you know what it's like.
The first thing you want to do is you want
to create some sort of friendship or relationship, and you
know you've got a job to do. But if you
go in there as an interviewer, they're going to shut
you down in a heartbeat.

Speaker 1 (08:46):
You have to break the code. As I'm sure you
know when you're interviewing somebody. I met John Houston twice,
but only briefly socially. The first time was in an
elevator in the Plaza when he had published his book
and Open Book, and I just said I like your films,
and he said, thank you very much. The second time
was when he was in Middletown, which is near Newport,
Rhode Island, to make a movie called Mister North, which

(09:07):
turned out to be the last film he was involved in,
although he never appeared in it. His son Danny was
directing it in nineteen eighty seven, and I wrote a
book about the making of that film because I was
seconded to the location by my newspaper, the Boston Herald.
And Houston was playing poker when I met him socially,
brought over by the publicist Ernie Anderson. Houston is playing
poker with Harry Dean Stanton, with producer Stephen Haften, with

(09:29):
Roberto O'silvie, who was his editor, and Houston was on
oxygen full time at this point. He had the lines
running all over the house and he couldn't really stray
far from her. So we had a few words, but
it wasn't an interview. We put off that I would
interview him later. Then, of course, he died in the
course of the production, and because I was working for
the newspapers, I broke all the stories around the world

(09:50):
about Houston's death. One of the people on the shoot
was Lauren Bacall, who was acting in the movie. So
I got to spend five or six weeks with Lauren Bacall,
who had been this is Bogart. And let me tell
you that Broad knew how to survive. She didn't take
any gupph from me. She didn't trust her soul unless
she'd known them for fifty years. But what an elegant

(10:12):
woman she was in her fifties or sixties, still heart
stoppingly beautiful, and she had so much characters, so much
spine that when Lauren Bacall spoke, you listened. And I
didn't mind being somewhat intimidated by her, because when she
talked about bogie, how many people do you meet who
can legitimately use the word bogie.

Speaker 2 (10:34):
But see, that's the human side of acting. That's the
kind of side that I really like to tap into.
That you know, they put their pants on the same
way I do. I mean, and They're just real people
that just happen to have a job in movies.

Speaker 1 (10:46):
And Lauren Becall would show up every day at lunchtime
even if she wasn't on call, because she didn't want
to spend her own money for food. So she's human too.

Speaker 2 (10:56):
You prove in this book that the collaboration is not
just the beginning and but the continuation. The more and
more I dive deeper into this, it wasn't over. It
was a continuation, and we're handing it forward even today.

Speaker 1 (11:09):
Bogart survives. You know, he became almost as saint when
the Harvard students recognized him in the nineteen fifties during
reading week when they had nothing else to do but
watch Bogart movies revived at the Brattle Theater in Cambridge,
and that's when it really took off. Somebody, I think,
Dick Cavit, asked JOHNS. Houston how Bogart would react to
this cult that has grown up around him, and Houston said, well,

(11:31):
he probably would be somewhat embarrassed by it, but I'd
also think he'd like it.

Speaker 2 (11:36):
I had a no crap moment though in the book.
I mean, until you opened up my eyes about John
Houston that most of his characters are down on their luck, losers,
and it's like I never even thought about that. I
never put that label on there, but it sure opened
up my eyes.

Speaker 1 (11:49):
Though actors love to play death scene, they love to
play the tragic characters, even though you'd think they want
to be liked and they want to be the hero. Houston,
I think recognized that duality in between the actors and
of course the audience is that you want to have
sympathy with somebody who's down on their luck and it
gives them a much better character arc. But perhaps there

(12:10):
was something deep inside of Houston who made him sympathized
with losers who struggle against the loss to try to persevere.
It's complicated, and I think it's something for a psychologists
to write about more than a film critic. But it's
in the book, and I think I thank you for
noticing it called attention to it.

Speaker 2 (12:27):
Yeah, speaking of what's in the book, one of my
favorite parts is I like to go to the dedication part.
I want to know who Jerry Herman is and why
did you say it's about time?

Speaker 1 (12:36):
Jerry Herman is a producer. He produces a lot of
independent films. He lives in France. He's a friend. He
helped me out many many years ago when things weren't
going well, and it's taken a long time to be
able to thank him like this. And beyond that, I
won't talk, but he's a very special friend.

Speaker 2 (12:53):
I love that part of the book, and so many
times it goes unnoticed because people go, oh, okay, and
it's like, no, it's more than that, because you don't
dedicate a book to it to a worm on the
ground unless that worm has touched you.

Speaker 1 (13:04):
I'll tell you a Los Angeles stro You can see
this in the bookstores here where where they still have bookstores.
You can see a movie star or somebody in the
business picking up a new book on the table and
they look in the front to see if it's dedicated
to them. Then they quick flip it to the index
to see if their name turns up of the index,
and if the name isn't in the index, they don't
buy the book. That's an LA story, flip.

Speaker 2 (13:26):
My Hollywood story is if I see him in a restaurant,
they're unemployed, and it's like, ah, dang it, don't talk
to them. They're unemployed, they're looking for that next job.

Speaker 1 (13:34):
Well those in it, depending if they're bringing you your
food or just sitting there.

Speaker 2 (13:39):
But you know, one of the things that you clearly
talk about is that these alliances were not uncommon. I
never even thought about. You know that a lot of
these actors and producers got together and it's like, you know,
like Scorsese and de Niro, and you sit there and
you go, dang it. These guys have been together for
a long time. They are the go to.

Speaker 1 (13:57):
They know who works best for them, and that of
course is why Bogart in Houston did so well. But
in those days, of course, they counted on the studio
bosses signing them to work together on the same picture.
Sometimes their schedules wouldn't permit and they had to do
work with another director. Other times, the boss, like Jack Warner,
who may have been a vulgarian but he was pretty smart,
realized that these two did work together well. Like Michael

(14:19):
Curtiz and Errol Flynn made some terrific pictures together. Even
though they didn't really get along. They knew where their
bread was buttered, and it happened to be at Warner
Brothers making Captain Blood and pictures like that. So if
you have a good studio mogul and everybody's under contract,
you can set it up. When you're talking about independent
people here, you know Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks or
Robert Semechis and Tom Hanks have done some fantastic work together,

(14:42):
but their schedules have to allow them to make the films.

Speaker 2 (14:46):
Would you say that John Houston and Humphrey Bogart were
solution people? In other words, if there was a situation
on the set, it wasn't about that situation. It was
about let's go to the end. Let's put vision and
focus on the end project, not what we're doing right now.

Speaker 1 (15:01):
They certainly shared a vision when Bogart and Houston made
a film together, but I think that was all settled
beforehand when they were doing the script writing and the
studio reads. Except for Treasure Sierra Madre, where they had
to make some modifications because of weather and terrain, I
don't think there were many changes in the scripts when
they did it. They were both professionals in those days.
You had to come in on time or Jack Warner
would pull the plug, and they certainly knew the richness

(15:23):
of the material. They were dealing with That's something about
these people. They would read the script dozens of times
that know what was in there. They also and I
don't have a sense of it, but it must have happened.
There must be whether they saved scenes by saying, oh quick,
I could do this, and they made a last minute
change on location. Nobody really notes that except the continuity

(15:43):
clerk who writes it on the script. But I'm sure
these were very good problem solving people when the problems
popped up. I just don't have a record I don't
think anybody does of what those problems were.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
So take us behind the scenes of your real life.
Did you record any of this stuff fork for future
listening or viewing?

Speaker 1 (16:01):
Do you mean am I recording the audiobook for my
own writing?

Speaker 2 (16:04):
Well, when you sat down with John Houston and Humphrey Bogart,
I mean, you know, you wrote a story here in
the experience, but did you record it, because otherwise you're
determining everything on the interpretation of a moment.

Speaker 1 (16:17):
Well, just to set it straight, I didn't ever meet
Humphrey Bogart, but I certainly met Lauren. But that's all.
And you said that, yeah, yeah, Houston was just a
couple of social engagements. I wasn't going to record. I'm
very formal. I don't just record stuff. I asked the
person's permission, and then I oftentimes, if I'm writing a book,
I'll say, well, may I send you a transcript for corrections,

(16:37):
because I don't do ambush as I'm doing research. If
it's a publicity the interview. When I was doing newspaper
work or radio work or television work, oh sure, they
said it. The first draft goes out on the air
with Lauren Becall. Because I was writing for newspapers and
because I knew i'd have to deal with her every day,
I gave her a transcript. And that's an interesting story
because I gave her an exact transcript of what she'd said,

(16:58):
and she took her pen and started lossing stuff. Fous. Oh,
I never said that. I never said that. Well, of
course she did. I have it on damn tape, and
so she said, I don't talk like that. I wrote
a book. She get written a memoir called by myself.
At the time, if I'm going to be yelled at
by anybody, I'd rather it be laurd or the call.

Speaker 2 (17:17):
I can still relate with that because the moment that
I bring out a microphone, and I do carry microphone
with me at all times, the very second I turn
that thing on, they become a different personality. So it's like,
I'm not doing it. I'm just not going to do it.

Speaker 1 (17:28):
Most people have a dreadful fear of microphones, and especially
of being held accountable for what they said. William Goldman,
the screenwriter, once talked about going to a meeting where
they were going to give him notes on one of
his friend plays, and he pulls out a yellow pad
to take notes, and all of a sudden, nobody had
any notes because they saw they were going to be
held responsible for what they said, and nobody wanted to

(17:48):
go on the record for it. So it's the same
thing with a microphone.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
Wow, where can people go to find out more about you, Nat,
because you've got a long list of victories when it
comes to your writing.

Speaker 1 (17:58):
Thanks ero. They can go to www dot ntsegal off
dot com, or just google me. I'm all over the
darn place, And of course they can go to bookstores
to buy Bogart and Houston or many of my other books.
And of course they can hit our friends at Barnes
and Noble or Amazon if they want to do a
search for me and to stock their shelves with the

(18:18):
stuff that I have ground out.

Speaker 2 (18:20):
Man, you got to come back to this show anytime
in the future. You know that door is always open
for you. Dude.

Speaker 1 (18:25):
Well, thank you so much. As it happens, not only
have they just released the trade paperback version of my
Extorcist book with a new chapter about Ectress's believer, but
in October, Leonard Malton, the film critic and film historian,
and I have done a book called Every Movie Is
a Miracle. And I'll speak to our friends at Premiere
Networks and you and see if maybe you want to
have Leonard Malton on the air.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
Oh, I want to have you too.

Speaker 1 (18:48):
Well, okay, I'll tag along.

Speaker 2 (18:49):
Okay, you'd be brilliant today.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
Okay, Sarah Aro, thank you so much for everything. I
love looking at you and reading your stuff on your
own website. I think there's so much and what goes
on with Errocollins. And thank you for letting me share
this part.

Speaker 2 (19:03):
You bet have a great day to day, sir, you too.
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